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$ Solution to STO's Monetary/Currency Problem: Decimation $

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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Put lavish clothing, interesting and desirable cosmetic devices, flying Q thrones, bright colorful auras, etc, etc, in a shop and charge 100s of million - 1 billion ec and you'll see the excess EC rapidly drained from the game economy and the value of ec go up significantly.


    What's this 'excess EC' people are talking about?! I'd like to get in on that! :P

    But, O irony, there's already a massive EC sink. It's called 'lockbox prices.' LOL. No, seriously, like 1.5 billion for a T6 Connie?! I'd say that's sink enough.

    That is not an ec sink though.

    An ec sink destroys ec, it doesnt transfer it from one person to another.

    People selling each other ships is not a sink at all.

    Education: The Silver Bullet.

    LOL. Please invest some points in sarcasm. :) My point was, that, with lockboxes prices nearing 2 billion EC, nobody's ever going to need an EC sink, except those 10-or-so aforementioned tycoons.
    ltminns wrote: »
    Maybe if we concentrated our game lives on exploring or blowing stuff up instead of worrying on where to store Smaug's Gold and Treasure, that would change these QoL issues.

    I smiled @ "Smaug's Gold". Good one! :)
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Put lavish clothing, interesting and desirable cosmetic devices, flying Q thrones, bright colorful auras, etc, etc, in a shop and charge 100s of million - 1 billion ec and you'll see the excess EC rapidly drained from the game economy and the value of ec go up significantly.


    What's this 'excess EC' people are talking about?! I'd like to get in on that! :P

    But, O irony, there's already a massive EC sink. It's called 'lockbox prices.' LOL. No, seriously, like 1.5 billion for a T6 Connie?! I'd say that's sink enough.

    That is not an ec sink though.

    An ec sink destroys ec, it doesnt transfer it from one person to another.

    People selling each other ships is not a sink at all.

    Education: The Silver Bullet.

    LOL. Please invest some points in sarcasm. :) My point was, that, with lockboxes prices nearing 2 billion EC, nobody's ever going to need an EC sink, except those 10-or-so aforementioned tycoons.
    ltminns wrote: »
    Maybe if we concentrated our game lives on exploring or blowing stuff up instead of worrying on where to store Smaug's Gold and Treasure, that would change these QoL issues.

    I smiled @ "Smaug's Gold". Good one! :)

    An EC sink would make prices for ships go down.


    That's likely true. And as long as it's vanity items only, sure, why not!? But I still don't think the average player has billions upon billions lying around to make a true EC sink something they'll ever make.
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  • nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Why a move that decimates (nine times over, because the word means "reduce by a 10th" not "reduce to a 10th" ;)) players' liquid wealth while completely ignoring wealth held in trade goods? Players are not going to be affected even remotely equally, depending on how they store their wealth. Or were you planning on reducing the number of crafting materials and favorable [mod] weapons in people's banks by 90% also?

    While STO has a serious mudcoin issue, the solution that is usually applied and usually works is to add more drains. Charge Ec to run Admiralty missions instead of Ec rewards. Or introduce an option to -buy- instance resets for Ec instead of having to wait 30 minutes.

    And the most ordinary solution of all in robust MMO economies - charge a percentage coming and going for using the exchange.

    Decimation does nothing if the faucets continue to push more volume of mudcoin into the game than the drains are taking out. Dialing down the faucets and drains at the same rate just maintains the same ratio of imbalance the created the problem in the first place.

    Make Ec more necessary - and thus more valuable - and the prices of other things as measured in Ec will go down.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    yeah, scratch that.
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  • borgified007borgified007 Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    Whales gonna whale
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    I have had the same thought... divide all prices/values by 10 or more. As long as EVERYTHING is hit the same amount at the same time, no one loses value. Probably a better way to handle inflation than just increasing caps forever.

    Wonder how the Exchange would work? Would they just de-post everything and filling mailboxes all over the place, or decrease the sale amounts automatically?
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    Some people seem to get the impression, that they would lose their money's value if Cryptic adopted this suggestion. But it's simply a currency conversion, so to speak. Imagine a hyperinflation has taken place. Instead of giving out 100 trillion Dollar bills, the central bank will simply create a new Dollar currency and set up a fixed exchange price old Dollar/new Dollar. The numbers on the bills change, but the values remain the same.

    Decimating all EC values or increasing caps would greatly increase transparency on the EC market. Can you tell me off the top of your head how much a 23rd century Constitution class ship costs right now? Neither can I. Such intransparency opens the door to all kinds of scams. Having even the most expensive ships listed on the exchange is a good thing for potential buyers.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,897 Community Moderator
    EC penalty for AFK. Two birds, one stone.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    Since this is a player run economy it doesn't solve jack. Players can ALWAYS set the prices how they want. There's the sticking point in OP's plan.

    You can't force people to set their prices lower. You simply make it harder to get EC, and people can STILL set whatever price they want, unless you're going to cap prices for items like the Tier 6 Kelvin Connie can ONLY be sold at 50 million or less.

    Sorry OP, this just doesn't work except to make it harder to earn EC.
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  • orion0029orion0029 Member Posts: 1,122 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2017
    talonxv wrote: »
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    Since this is a player run economy it doesn't solve jack. Players can ALWAYS set the prices how they want. There's the sticking point in OP's plan.

    You can't force people to set their prices lower. You simply make it harder to get EC, and people can STILL set whatever price they want, unless you're going to cap prices for items like the Tier 6 Kelvin Connie can ONLY be sold at 50 million or less.

    Sorry OP, this just doesn't work except to make it harder to earn EC.

    This is my main concern here, it does absolutely nothing to remove the excessive wealth owned by the upper crust, but it does make it more difficult for the bottom 90% to achieve 'space rich' status.

    In theory it isn't a terrible idea, perhaps if it is done once in combination with additional EC sinks it could expedite economic stabilization. But on its own, it isn't feasable for a 'fix'.

    Edit: Oops, didn't realize that would be filtered out lol. corrected.
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    No not really. As I tried to explain earlier, such a decimation would be a simple currency conversion. 100 old EC = 10 new EC. It would take as much time and money to get 10 new ECs as it does to get 100 old ECs right now.

    An example. In 1923 hyperinflation in Weimar Germany reached its peak. You needed billions of Marks to buy a bread or an egg. They simply converted 1 trillion old Marks (Reichsmark) into 1 new Mark (Rentenmark). This conversion didn't mean that anybody would lose money. It simply changed the numbers on the price tags. And nobody would have tried to ask for the same nominal price as before, for obvious reasons.

    Decimation would mean that all items could be sold on the exchange once again. And you woudn't need to rely on a replacement currency (Master Keys) anymore. And yes, the same could be achieved by increasing the EC caps on both, player accounts and the exchange.
  • orion0029orion0029 Member Posts: 1,122 Bug Hunter
    szim wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    No not really. As I tried to explain earlier, such a decimation would be a simple currency conversion. 100 old EC = 10 new EC. It would take as much time and money to get 10 new ECs as it does to get 100 old ECs right now.

    An example. In 1923 hyperinflation in Weimar Germany reached its peak. You needed billions of Marks to buy a bread or an egg. They simply converted 1 trillion old Marks (Reichsmark) into 1 new Mark (Rentenmark). This conversion didn't mean that anybody would lose money. It simply changed the numbers on the price tags. And nobody would have tried to ask for the same nominal price as before, for obvious reasons.

    Decimation would mean that all items could be sold on the exchange once again. And you woudn't need to rely on a replacement currency (Master Keys) anymore. And yes, the same could be achieved by increasing the EC caps on both, player accounts and the exchange.

    You do have a point, however, since the credit cap would still be 1 billion, the 'space rich' would still be able to buy/sell at current prices. And since the 'space rich' would be impacted to a lesser extant than the 'space poor', the rich would get richer because they could afford to make expensive purchases for profit.

    Simply put, the effective result would be raising the credit cap to 10 Billion, doing so would only allow the rich to continue to stockpile mass amounts of credits, while doing nothing to remove this excessive wealth from the economy.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    No not really. As I tried to explain earlier, such a decimation would be a simple currency conversion. 100 old EC = 10 new EC. It would take as much time and money to get 10 new ECs as it does to get 100 old ECs right now.

    An example. In 1923 hyperinflation in Weimar Germany reached its peak. You needed billions of Marks to buy a bread or an egg. They simply converted 1 trillion old Marks (Reichsmark) into 1 new Mark (Rentenmark). This conversion didn't mean that anybody would lose money. It simply changed the numbers on the price tags. And nobody would have tried to ask for the same nominal price as before, for obvious reasons.

    Decimation would mean that all items could be sold on the exchange once again. And you woudn't need to rely on a replacement currency (Master Keys) anymore. And yes, the same could be achieved by increasing the EC caps on both, player accounts and the exchange.

    Unless you control what people set prices at. IT DOESN'T CHANGE A THING. All it does is drop the the currency by 1 decimal point, make it harder to reach that kind of wealth and doesn't stop people from placing those items right back at the same price in now an economy where it's HARDER TO EARN CREDITS.

    This is where your logic continues to fail. We the player set the prices, not cryptic. So devaluing our credits without capping what people can sell items for does NOTHING except make it harder to get said items.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.


    Yeah, sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense at all. If the amount of everyone's EC is shifted by 1 decimal point, then said 34.5 million is now worth the equivalent of the previous 345 million. So, yeah, peeps could now relist it again for 345 million, but only to demonstrate they're a blithering idiot.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million,


    Also, that word 'devaluate', not really applicable here. Money is really only said to be devaluated when you can now buy less for it than you could before. When all EC prices drop a decimal point, though, AND everyone's wealth along with it, the net result is that nothing changes at all.

    And, should they ever go ahead with the new idea, there's nothing to prevent Cryptic from decimating (yes, I'm just gonna keep using that term, as in today's vernacular, for all purposes and intent, it just means 'reduce to 1/10th.') prices listed on Exchange too, for our convenience.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,503 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    szim wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Again, this decimation really changes nothing except giving people a happy feel good feeling(yes repetitive I know) but ultimately doesn't really fix anything.

    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million, take it down and put it right back up at 345 million.

    No not really. As I tried to explain earlier, such a decimation would be a simple currency conversion. 100 old EC = 10 new EC. It would take as much time and money to get 10 new ECs as it does to get 100 old ECs right now.

    An example. In 1923 hyperinflation in Weimar Germany reached its peak. You needed billions of Marks to buy a bread or an egg. They simply converted 1 trillion old Marks (Reichsmark) into 1 new Mark (Rentenmark). This conversion didn't mean that anybody would lose money. It simply changed the numbers on the price tags. And nobody would have tried to ask for the same nominal price as before, for obvious reasons.

    Decimation would mean that all items could be sold on the exchange once again. And you woudn't need to rely on a replacement currency (Master Keys) anymore. And yes, the same could be achieved by increasing the EC caps on both, player accounts and the exchange.

    Unless you control what people set prices at. IT DOESN'T CHANGE A THING. All it does is drop the the currency by 1 decimal point, make it harder to reach that kind of wealth and doesn't stop people from placing those items right back at the same price in now an economy where it's HARDER TO EARN CREDITS.

    This is where your logic continues to fail. We the player set the prices, not cryptic. So devaluing our credits without capping what people can sell items for does NOTHING except make it harder to get said items.

    You don't need to control prices. You can try to sell a piece of ham for $10'000 if you like, or bread for $1'000 but you'll never find a buyer. You will have to lower your prices until you find somebody who's willing to pay them. And you will end up right where you started, at market prices.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million,


    Also, that word 'devaluate', not really applicable here. Money is really only said to be devaluated when you can now buy less for it than you could before. When all EC prices drop a decimal point, though, AND everyone's wealth along with it, the net result is that nothing changes at all.

    And, should they ever go ahead with the new idea, there's nothing to prevent Cryptic from decimating (yes, I'm just gonna keep using that term, as in today's vernacular, for all purposes and intent, it just means 'reduce to 1/10th.') prices listed on Exchange too, for our convenience.

    And how are they going to KEEP THEM THERE? They can't. People will simply take them down and put them right back up. And even if they drop it down from again 345 million to 34.5 million, it's still just as hard to get there with the lowered earnings the OP suggests.

    So it changes NOTHING. Just a number at this point.
    afMSv4g.jpg
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million,


    Also, that word 'devaluate', not really applicable here. Money is really only said to be devaluated when you can now buy less for it than you could before. When all EC prices drop a decimal point, though, AND everyone's wealth along with it, the net result is that nothing changes at all.

    And, should they ever go ahead with the new idea, there's nothing to prevent Cryptic from decimating (yes, I'm just gonna keep using that term, as in today's vernacular, for all purposes and intent, it just means 'reduce to 1/10th.') prices listed on Exchange too, for our convenience.

    And how are they going to KEEP THEM THERE? They can't. People will simply take them down and put them right back up. And even if they drop it down from again 345 million to 34.5 million, it's still just as hard to get there with the lowered earnings the OP suggests.

    So it changes NOTHING. Just a number at this point.


    I honestly don't understand what you're saying here. When the going market price is now 34.5 million, why would anyone in his or her right mind, even WANT to put it back up for 345 million?!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million,


    Also, that word 'devaluate', not really applicable here. Money is really only said to be devaluated when you can now buy less for it than you could before. When all EC prices drop a decimal point, though, AND everyone's wealth along with it, the net result is that nothing changes at all.

    And, should they ever go ahead with the new idea, there's nothing to prevent Cryptic from decimating (yes, I'm just gonna keep using that term, as in today's vernacular, for all purposes and intent, it just means 'reduce to 1/10th.') prices listed on Exchange too, for our convenience.

    And how are they going to KEEP THEM THERE? They can't. People will simply take them down and put them right back up. And even if they drop it down from again 345 million to 34.5 million, it's still just as hard to get there with the lowered earnings the OP suggests.

    So it changes NOTHING. Just a number at this point.


    I honestly don't understand what you're saying here. When the going market price is now 34.5 million, why would anyone in his or her right mind, even WANT to put it back up for 345 million?!

    wild guess? same reason the sell things for over the charcter ec cap.


    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,572 Arc User
    Haven't you ever seen stuff listed on the Exchange posted by the knuckleheads that was way out of kilter with the rest of the postings for said item?

    This will give some an opportunity to raise prices again to previous levels, albeit over a period of time. Meanwhile it makes things easier because items can be listed on the Exchange, removing the necessity of using all sorts of barter mechanics to complete a transaction. It also solves the problem some may have of having much of their wealth spread out over dozens of 'bank mules', allowing for consolidation of said wealth.

    Rule of Aquisition 239.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Sorry noone has really explained how this changes really anything. Sure you could knock everything down 1 decimal point, but people could go right back and that ship they had at 345 million, suddenly gets devalued to 34.5 million,


    Also, that word 'devaluate', not really applicable here. Money is really only said to be devaluated when you can now buy less for it than you could before. When all EC prices drop a decimal point, though, AND everyone's wealth along with it, the net result is that nothing changes at all.

    And, should they ever go ahead with the new idea, there's nothing to prevent Cryptic from decimating (yes, I'm just gonna keep using that term, as in today's vernacular, for all purposes and intent, it just means 'reduce to 1/10th.') prices listed on Exchange too, for our convenience.

    And how are they going to KEEP THEM THERE? They can't. People will simply take them down and put them right back up. And even if they drop it down from again 345 million to 34.5 million, it's still just as hard to get there with the lowered earnings the OP suggests.

    So it changes NOTHING. Just a number at this point.


    I honestly don't understand what you're saying here. When the going market price is now 34.5 million, why would anyone in his or her right mind, even WANT to put it back up for 345 million?!

    Simple. GREED. They have, it you want it, they can sell it as they wish. If someone bites they have 345 more than they did. If they didn't, oh well. Someone will eventually bite.

    All this does is devalue the credits you have while not dealing with SUPPLY AND DEMAND. It's amazing how this concept has gone right over people's heads.
    afMSv4g.jpg
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  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    There are only two ways to "solve" the economy issue,...

    1.) Put in items that people want (make some if not most of them, consumable) and sell them for EC.
    2.) Make the items that are being priced "outrageously", less rare. (If a super popular ship has a drop rate of 1% from a lock box, raise the drop rate to 2 or 2.5%, for example.)

    That's it, that's all. No other grand complicated schemes need to be imagined, scrutinized or debated over. It's that simple.

    Competition and adequate supply, drives down prices, nothing else. More supply = lower prices. Period.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
    "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
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