Interesting problem - but how many people (as a percentage of the entire player base) do you suppose this affects? And more pointedly for the devs, what percentage of the revenue/profit do these same people represent?
Ultimately, you have to ask yourself is putting the entire player base through any major upheaval (given potential player base dissatisfaction and attrition) worth the time, effort, and expense of making any changes.
Also, all of the solutions have one core requirement - that relative "value" remains the same which limits potential solutions. Further, whatever solution, even if value remains the same, will likely affect different players in different ways. If you were to segment the population along key demographics, pain and benefit may be poorly distributed (the people who benefit most would likely suffer the least pain). Think of player demographic segments as a rubik's cube where each spinning color and location represents stuff like player profitability and such.
It seems like the newer players who don't spend a lot of money (yet, but are the future of the player base) would be most impacted because it's a lot harder earlier in the game to make EC already. While stuff on the exchange for more exotic equipment would be priced well, regular equipment that newer players want would necessarily have to retain "value" vis-a-vis EC otherwise, players selling vendor trash would be at an advantage/disadvantage. However, this may adversely affect newer players' ability to get good starter equipment and lead to discouragement and abandonment of the game.
Still think properly monetizing GPL and letting it be used for things other than gambling and novelty stuff would provide a nice competitive push against EC, especially if you establish a currency exchange between EC and GPL similar to Zen and Dilithium.
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Ah, so we've reached the stage of repetitious slogan shouting. Because that went so well with your "never Nerf Anything" stream of nonsense. I'm sure the Devs will practically fall over themselves in their rush to cave to this campaign too.
I'm still failing to see any crisis. A small percentage of the player base have maxed out bank accounts, an even smaller percentage of the player base has stuff for sale for which they are asking way more than the games economy is designed to handle.
Yet that small percentage of players have found ways of storing their game money, and they have also found ways to buy and sell stuff well above the games economy limits.
Ah, so we've reached the stage of repetitious slogan shouting. Because that went so well with your "never Nerf Anything" stream of nonsense. I'm sure the Devs will practically fall over themselves in their rush to cave to this campaign too.
Education is the silver bullet.
Is that quote a new meme or something to be repeated so often?
Ah, so we've reached the stage of repetitious slogan shouting. Because that went so well with your "never Nerf Anything" stream of nonsense. I'm sure the Devs will practically fall over themselves in their rush to cave to this campaign too.
"As a result of this, people store value in items such as keys and ships. This removes these keys and ships from the market, decreasing their supply, and creates demand for them unrelated to their usefulness. As a result they are more expensive for everyone."
Quote:
"This compounds the EC Storage Crisis by further devaluing EC and creating further unproductive demand for keys and other items that must be used as pseudocurrencies to buy and sell the ships."
Lockbox ships and Promo ships I can see being part of the issue, but Lobi ships and keys are not limited-quantity items. There is literally an infinite number of Zen and Lobi available. It's just not available all at once. Anyone can eventually obtain both Lobi and Zen (and by proxy, keys) in large quantities without paying a single penny out of pocket provided they are willing to grind out the dilithium (a pretty plentiful mineral, all told, especially in the Dyson Sphere) to convert to Zen, purchase keys with said Zen, and using them on lockboxes to obtain the Lobi and/or use them to get EC or trade for ships or other goods. The only safeguard in place for that is the 8K per day dilithium refinement limit, and that's to prevent a run on the market. Even then, when you factor in the keys that are purchased with Zen purchased with cash (a number that possibly exceeds the number sold on the exchange and the number bought with Zen acquired by the Dilithium to Zen exchange, though there's really no way to gauge what that number is), the number of keys available continues to rise.
Basically, there's really no decrease in supply in keys, as the number of keys that can be on the market is really only limited by the game coding and the willingness of players to obtain it by not using the exchange.
In reality, the only true way to remove keys and ships from the market is to use them, as they still hold market value even if they are not actively in the market.
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Many people buy keys on the exchange for the express purpose of putting them in the bank because the bank can't hold enough EC.
If people want to buy keys to use for some productive activity, like opening lockboxes to produce loot for people to use, they are competing against that first group, who doesn't plan to use the keys productively, only use them as a way to store their wealth.
When there is more competition ("demand") for something, at any level of supply, it puts an upward pressure on prices.
That would make sense if there were a finite number of keys to be had, even if that number were large. However, the production of keys is basically the same as any other good in Star Trek created via a replicator. It's done at the press of a button, creating a new one for you out of thin air, requiring a certain amount of raw matter (or currency, in the case of keys) to obtain.
You're trying to apply a standard supply and demand model to a post-scarcity product (which keys are, given the infinite number that can be created). There is a theoretically infinite supply of keys out there. Because there is no limit to the number that can be made, there's no actual competition in place.
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
I read this thread VERY fast so forgive me if I'm repeating something that others here have mentioned or if I do not completely understand the issue.
If I'm understanding this issue, then it is that there is too much EC being saved in character/player banks, etc.
Is that the case?
If so, then would it not be better to allow players to sell "used" items on the exchange (at say a loss of one level, so a Level-XIV would become a Level-XIII for the buyer which is easy to R&D back up to XIV by the buyer) in a used item market. Would that allow for a decrease in actual EC being held by causing the purchase of more items (albeit used) on the exchange. Would the increase in supply of these used items also drop the values of newer items and thus allow for less need of saving/storing EC to buy items on the exchange.
Like I said, I read this thread really fast, so I may have missed the finer details here. If I did, then somebody feel free to correct me.
Interesting idea, but creating a "Used Item Market" for this kind of item would be pointless, as there's no "wear and tear" on the item.
Let's say you have a MkXIII Very Rare Phaser Beam Array [CrtD][Dmg]x2. Selling it used in the fashion you posit would only drop its level to MkXII, which would only drop its overall damage potential by a bit to the same amount as a new MkXII Very Rare Phaser Beam Array [CrtD][Dmg]x2. Since there is no difference in ability, there is no difference in value. No difference in value translates to no difference in price.
Now, a way to counteract that and make it cheaper is to put a [Used] modifier on the item which would put on a small chance of a misfire or failure, but since there is no real money being spent here, people will opt to spend the extra EC on a new one anyway.
Space Barbie Extraordinaire. Got a question about Space Barbie? Just ask.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Still think properly monetizing GPL and letting it be used for things other than gambling and novelty stuff would provide a nice competitive push against EC, especially if you establish a currency exchange between EC and GPL similar to Zen and Dilithium.
The two biggest mistakes in the development of sto, in my opinion, were failing to call the exchange currency "GPL" and failing to call the foundry "the holodeck."
Not sure they are the biggest mistakes, but they are certainly among the kind of mistakes where a little change could make things feel vastly more... fitting.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Many people buy keys on the exchange for the express purpose of putting them in the bank because the bank can't hold enough EC.
If people want to buy keys to use for some productive activity, like opening lockboxes to produce loot for people to use, they are competing against that first group, who doesn't plan to use the keys productively, only use them as a way to store their wealth.
When there is more competition ("demand") for something, at any level of supply, it puts an upward pressure on prices.
That would make sense if there were a finite number of keys to be had, even if that number were large. However, the production of keys is basically the same as any other good in Star Trek created via a replicator. It's done at the press of a button, creating a new one for you out of thin air, requiring a certain amount of raw matter (or currency, in the case of keys) to obtain.
You're trying to apply a standard supply and demand model to a post-scarcity product (which keys are, given the infinite number that can be created). There is a theoretically infinite supply of keys out there. Because there is no limit to the number that can be made, there's no actual competition in place.
"You're trying to apply a standard supply and demand model." He does that with everything, ships too. Essentially, everything in this game is as rare as Cryptic wants it to be (and CBS maybe). I'm glad you brought some nuance to the discussion, to offset some of the very black & white views.
Still think properly monetizing GPL and letting it be used for things other than gambling and novelty stuff would provide a nice competitive push against EC, especially if you establish a currency exchange between EC and GPL similar to Zen and Dilithium.
The two biggest mistakes in the development of sto, in my opinion, were failing to call the exchange currency "GPL" and failing to call the foundry "the holodeck."
Not sure they are the biggest mistakes, but they are certainly among the kind of mistakes where a little change could make things feel vastly more... fitting.
I wouldn't call 'em mistakes per se; rather a missed opportunity. We have holodecks on our Fleet base, and Research Lab (and thus copyable to any place Cryptic would want); those would have been the absolute logical places to initiate a Foundry mission from. Beyond baffling why they went with the convoluted Foundry system as it exists.
I think it's clear here that what we need are changes that will bring a Strong and Stable (tm) in-game economy to STO.
As for key banking, maybe players would be less inclined to use them as an EC store if the odds of getting a ship from lockboxes weren't so vanishingly small. As it is, there's not enough incentive to actually use them.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
We need 'safe spaces' for those that have bajillions of EC.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Ultimately, you have to ask yourself is putting the entire player base through any major upheaval (given potential player base dissatisfaction and attrition) worth the time, effort, and expense of making any changes.
Also, all of the solutions have one core requirement - that relative "value" remains the same which limits potential solutions. Further, whatever solution, even if value remains the same, will likely affect different players in different ways. If you were to segment the population along key demographics, pain and benefit may be poorly distributed (the people who benefit most would likely suffer the least pain). Think of player demographic segments as a rubik's cube where each spinning color and location represents stuff like player profitability and such.
It seems like the newer players who don't spend a lot of money (yet, but are the future of the player base) would be most impacted because it's a lot harder earlier in the game to make EC already. While stuff on the exchange for more exotic equipment would be priced well, regular equipment that newer players want would necessarily have to retain "value" vis-a-vis EC otherwise, players selling vendor trash would be at an advantage/disadvantage. However, this may adversely affect newer players' ability to get good starter equipment and lead to discouragement and abandonment of the game.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yet that small percentage of players have found ways of storing their game money, and they have also found ways to buy and sell stuff well above the games economy limits.
Exactly where is this "crisis" ?
I used to expect better trolling from you. But really, your toolbox is surprisingly limited.
Lockbox ships and Promo ships I can see being part of the issue, but Lobi ships and keys are not limited-quantity items. There is literally an infinite number of Zen and Lobi available. It's just not available all at once. Anyone can eventually obtain both Lobi and Zen (and by proxy, keys) in large quantities without paying a single penny out of pocket provided they are willing to grind out the dilithium (a pretty plentiful mineral, all told, especially in the Dyson Sphere) to convert to Zen, purchase keys with said Zen, and using them on lockboxes to obtain the Lobi and/or use them to get EC or trade for ships or other goods. The only safeguard in place for that is the 8K per day dilithium refinement limit, and that's to prevent a run on the market. Even then, when you factor in the keys that are purchased with Zen purchased with cash (a number that possibly exceeds the number sold on the exchange and the number bought with Zen acquired by the Dilithium to Zen exchange, though there's really no way to gauge what that number is), the number of keys available continues to rise.
Basically, there's really no decrease in supply in keys, as the number of keys that can be on the market is really only limited by the game coding and the willingness of players to obtain it by not using the exchange.
In reality, the only true way to remove keys and ships from the market is to use them, as they still hold market value even if they are not actively in the market.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That would make sense if there were a finite number of keys to be had, even if that number were large. However, the production of keys is basically the same as any other good in Star Trek created via a replicator. It's done at the press of a button, creating a new one for you out of thin air, requiring a certain amount of raw matter (or currency, in the case of keys) to obtain.
You're trying to apply a standard supply and demand model to a post-scarcity product (which keys are, given the infinite number that can be created). There is a theoretically infinite supply of keys out there. Because there is no limit to the number that can be made, there's no actual competition in place.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
Interesting idea, but creating a "Used Item Market" for this kind of item would be pointless, as there's no "wear and tear" on the item.
Let's say you have a MkXIII Very Rare Phaser Beam Array [CrtD][Dmg]x2. Selling it used in the fashion you posit would only drop its level to MkXII, which would only drop its overall damage potential by a bit to the same amount as a new MkXII Very Rare Phaser Beam Array [CrtD][Dmg]x2. Since there is no difference in ability, there is no difference in value. No difference in value translates to no difference in price.
Now, a way to counteract that and make it cheaper is to put a [Used] modifier on the item which would put on a small chance of a misfire or failure, but since there is no real money being spent here, people will opt to spend the extra EC on a new one anyway.
Things I want in STO:
1) More character customization options such as more clothing options, letting the toon complexion affect the entire body, not just the head. Also a true RGB color picker applied to all costume and appearance options, which would allow for true appearance customization and homogenous colors instead of "this same exact color looks vastly different on two different pieces."
2) Bridge customization, not bridge packs. Let us pick a general layout and adjust the color palette, console appearance, and chair types, as well as more ready room layout options.
3) Customizable ground weapons, i.e. The aesthetic look of phaser dual pistols but they shoot antiproton bolts. For obvious reasons this would only apply to standard ground weapons.
4) For the love of Q please revamp Plasma Ground Weapons. They look like demented Supersoakers right now.
5) True Vanity Impulse and Deflector effects similar to Vanity Shields.
6) A greater payout for hitting T6 Reputations. Currently it takes more time and resources to get from T5 to T6 than it does to get from nothing to T5. Make that grind really pay out at the end.
7) Mirrorverse Refugee event similar to AoY/Delta/Gamma, complete with new Mirrorverse recruits for all factions.
8) Independent Faction, because yo ho yo ho a pirate's life for me!
"You're trying to apply a standard supply and demand model." He does that with everything, ships too. Essentially, everything in this game is as rare as Cryptic wants it to be (and CBS maybe). I'm glad you brought some nuance to the discussion, to offset some of the very black & white views.
Education: the Silver Bullet. :P
I wouldn't call 'em mistakes per se; rather a missed opportunity. We have holodecks on our Fleet base, and Research Lab (and thus copyable to any place Cryptic would want); those would have been the absolute logical places to initiate a Foundry mission from. Beyond baffling why they went with the convoluted Foundry system as it exists.
As for key banking, maybe players would be less inclined to use them as an EC store if the odds of getting a ship from lockboxes weren't so vanishingly small. As it is, there's not enough incentive to actually use them.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'