And as long as I have to pay for everything, dearly, I will keep bitching about all these nerfs. Can't make it any more clear than that.
We can tell. Every post you've made here is just you whining that your copy-and-paste build is broken. Your conduct makes my five year-old nephew look a like a college professor by comparison.
Copy-and-paste build?! LOL. Dd you just copy-and-paste that boilerplate comment from your usual bag of one-liners?! Cuz I didn't see anyone talk about a build, here. Did you?! Unless 'using the Leech' constituted as copy-and-paste.
Are you that traumatized by not getting your way that you've forgotten that you've been moaning for a dozen pages about no longer being able to copy-and-paste the "plasmonic leach and as many plasma exploders as you can fit in a ship and face roll" build? You may want to get out and get some air, or maybe sign on to Tribble and redirect all that effort from moaning into making a new build for yourself.
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
Copy and pasting an entire build and using plasmonic leech as part of a build are two entirely different things.
Just because you paid for it does NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO **** ABOUT IT.
That's a pretty clear example of feedback from a customer. That's how that works. It's up to Cryptic to do what they want with the feedback. But the customer does have the right to complain about the service.
As somebody who has worked in retail...no. You are flat out wrong in this.
As somebody who worked in tech support, nah, I'm pretty spot on with this. People complain like that every single day. And it's well within their rights as a customer to complain. People have been complaining to Cryptic about this game since it's very beginning.
What Cryptic does with those complaints is totally up to them. But as customers of their services, people can and do complain about Star Trek Online. Every single day.
Unless 'using the Leech' constituted as copy-and-paste.
Yes, yes it did.
Seriously though, it was used in almost every kind of build. From a game development standpoint that's a giant red flag.
Nah. Like I said earlier, that's like saying 'using gasoline' is a major red flag, as it's being used in almost every kind of car. Sometimes a component is essential, yes. Like, in this case, a console that 'fuels' your ship. But it's a huge mistake confusing 'essential' with 'overpowered.' See, another way of stating this, is simply saying all ships are vastly underpowered without the Leech.
The fact that you think it is essential is laughable. You can do EVERYTHING in this game with no plasmonic with ZERO issue. What plasmonic did was make it so you could do EVERYTHING even faster. What it did was make it so that if you wanted to do the DPS race, it was get plasmonic or GTFO. Same deal with the exploders. No, these are not essential to the game. They are OP gear that should have been nerfed YEARS ago but the devs were too damn scared to do it. So yeah for the devs having the courage to do what needs to get done. Or at least the first step. May this be the first of many more.
This^ I have Leech on my red side characters, nowhere else. My blue side chars get along just fine without it.
And as long as I have to pay for everything, dearly, I will keep bitching about all these nerfs. Can't make it any more clear than that.
We can tell. Every post you've made here is just you whining that your copy-and-paste build is broken. Your conduct makes my five year-old nephew look a like a college professor by comparison.
...you know just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to be discourteous. I disagree with some of these nerfs, but I don't go around telling the players who support them that they are nitwits.
I'm not discourteous to others based on simple differences of opinion. That statement of yours is a flawed comparison in itself. That individual is not expressing an opinion at all.
Preferring chocolate to strawberry is a difference of opinion. Stating that bananas are purple is fiction.
Complaining that you've been caught breaking a rule, and saying you should be allowed to continue breaking it because no one has noticed for years is a deflection and a fallacy, not a valid argument or opinion.
I'll apologize for calling out obnoxious idiots when idiots apologize for being obnoxiously stupid, not a moment before.
Additionally, this is a public forum. If one doesn't want to be dressed down for saying something foolish, one should think before one types.
Flawed based on what? Your own argument is askew. If you had followed his posts over the course of this thread you would clearly be able to interpret what his opinion is... and I think you know what it is, but you don't like it.
Your argument is flawed in exactly the way I expressly stated it. I wasn't discourteous due to a difference of opinion. I was discourteous because I'm tired of the ceaseless whining and statement of falsehoods by that individual, and all the scores of others who are irrationally acting like the sky is falling because their favorite exploit has been taken away from them.
How exactly has he broken a rule? Equipment that has been in game for, in the case of plasmonic leech, years and has functioned essentially the same for said amount of time is not breaking a rule. Please tell me when something is released by cryptic in one of their lotto boxes and works really good are we suppose to avoid it because it might be breaking some unwritten rule? This is again a inaccurate assumption on your part.
I didn't say he was breaking a rule, I was making an allusion to illustrate why he is not presenting a logical argument or an opinion, but a fallacious falsehood. A broken exploit that has been unaccountably left in the game for years has FINALLY been fixed, and the argument that everyone is making (including him) is that because they've abused that exploit for years, they should be able to keep doing so and have the fix reversed. Frankly, no, the EULA clearly states the devs have carte blanche to alter anything they wish at will. The only thing that should be a shock to people is not that Plasmonic Leach and Embassy plasma consoles have finally been fixed, the shock is that it's taken years and a botched first attempt at addressing the issue for the exploit to finally be fixed.
Anyone playing stupid and pretending they don't realize they're exploiting something that is a result of bad game design is doing just that. If it's too good to be true, it'll get patched, so relying on something one should have the common sense to know is broken is no one's fault but the person who does it. I have zero pity for anyone upset by this change, zero.
So your last statement is basically that this is a public form so you will continue acting like a jerk just because. Another tough guy acting out over the internet? If that's how you get your jollies...
That isn't what I wrote, so I'm not sure how that seems to be what you read. If one doesn't want to be called stupid, one should not behave that way. If one doesn't want to be called a whiner, one should not whine. So, if someone is going to drag down the tenor and quality of discussion in a public forum, I see no reason to not call them out on said bad behavior. Turnabout is fair play. I can't help but notice the person in question hasn't disagreed with me. Perhaps because there is nothing I said about them or their non-argument that is substantively wrong, and therefore there is no rational argument to counter me with, just more whining.
I can respect peoples opinions, even when they goes against my own, if they present a compelling argument, but posting that someone is dumb just because you think so, or because you believe they are cheating by using a console that has been in the game for years, isn't a very compelling argument.
People aren't dumb or childish because I "think so". Using an objective set of standards, one can easily apprise someone who demonstrably behaves stupidly. In this case, it's not actual stupidity but rather playing stupid in an attempt to evade responsibility/concede defeat/admit fault, but the point remains and is still applicable. Once again, it's easy to spot something that's broken due to bad game design, so I have no pity for anyone who relies on such things as crutches.
I look at this balance pass primarily through the PVP lens. PVE is a challengeless cakewalk, these changes will no have no meaningful impact in PVE other than some people seeing a smaller number on their DPS logger, and I can't say my heart bleeds for that non-issue. These changes will however have an enormous and positive impact on PVP. Neutralized exploits provide an even playing field where skill will determine wins, not which player who knows about/has stockpiled enough broken gear to use to defeat people who are more skilled than them. No one but a poor sport/cheater is going to complain about that. New players deserve to have that experience, as PVP is the traditional endgame of MMOs.
EDIT: Responses in-line in italics.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
And as long as I have to pay for everything, dearly, I will keep bitching about all these nerfs. Can't make it any more clear than that.
We can tell. Every post you've made here is just you whining that your copy-and-paste build is broken. Your conduct makes my five year-old nephew look a like a college professor by comparison.
Copy-and-paste build?! LOL. Dd you just copy-and-paste that boilerplate comment from your usual bag of one-liners?! Cuz I didn't see anyone talk about a build, here. Did you?! Unless 'using the Leech' constituted as copy-and-paste.
Are you that traumatized by not getting your way that you've forgotten that you've been moaning for a dozen pages about no longer being able to copy-and-paste the "plasmonic leach and as many plasma exploders as you can fit in a ship and face roll" build? You may want to get out and get some air, or maybe sign on to Tribble and redirect all that effort from moaning into making a new build for yourself.
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
Copy and pasting an entire build and using plasmonic leech as part of a build are two entirely different things.
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
Have the plasmonic leech or the embassy consoles or any of the other stuff that is getting nerfed been mean to you when you were a child or anything?
Just wondering. I understand that the topic polarizes but you seem to really get fanatic over it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
There will always be items that will be heavily used on most builds.
If you nerf the Leech to the point where it's completely useless, then something else will take it's place. Maybe it won't be as powerful, but it will always be there. The idea that something needs to be nerfed just because everyone uses it is short sided and silly. No matter what you do, there will always be 'must have items,' the only thing you do by constantly nerfing these items is perpetuate a never ending cycle of powercreep followed by nerfs like the one we're in now.
Don't get me wrong, if you feel that the Leech is too powerful then fair enough. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that a lot of people use it, then you need to change the way you're thinking.
On the topic of copy/paste builds.. if that's what someone wants to do then how is it hurting you? Personally, I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game, I like to use suggested builds for a baseline idea and adjust it to my style, but who's to say that's right or wrong either? I have suggested builds for people on many occasions, if someone wants to just copy it verbatim then no sweat off my nose.
Some people on this forum need to focus more on themselves and worry less about what others are doing.
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
Have the plasmonic leech or the embassy consoles or any of the other stuff that is getting nerfed been mean to you when you were a child or anything?
Just wondering. I understand that the topic polarizes but you seem to really get fanatic over it.
Tell, are you really going to try and say they weren't OP? If not, then what is your point?
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
Have the plasmonic leech or the embassy consoles or any of the other stuff that is getting nerfed been mean to you when you were a child or anything?
Just wondering. I understand that the topic polarizes but you seem to really get fanatic over it.
Tell, are you really going to try and say they weren't OP? If not, then what is your point?
The same I tried to deliver a few pages back in this thread: There will always be OP stuff because it bankrolls the game.
Use it and live with it or don't and get over it. The stuff is going to get nerved and those who didn’t like to use it are still not over it.
Sorry but that’s a bit too traumatic for my videogame taste.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
There will always be items that will be heavily used on most builds.
Maybe, but:
1) Really on most? I could easily imagine that different builds actualy have different top chosen consoles.
2) There is also the magnitude of how strong the difference is.
Plasmonic Leech gave free significant energy level benefits that no other console - incuding those specifically geared to boost your power levels (and didn't also drain power from your enemy) didn't.
Embassy Consoles contributed a signfiicant portion of damage to ship builds - larger than many other abilities specifically designed to boost your DPS, and not also your science skills and threat scaling.
If an item or ability is chosen primarily for one of several benefits it provides, and it's chosen by the majority of high performing builds, something looks odd.
Don't get me wrong, if you feel that the Leech is too powerful then fair enough. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that a lot of people use it, then you need to change the way you're thinking.
It's a fair starting point to check if something might be overpowered. Likewise, it's a good starting point to see what almost no one takes to check if something might be underpowered.
On the topic of copy/paste builds.. if that's what someone wants to do then how is it hurting you? Personally, I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game, I like to use suggested builds for a baseline idea and adjust it to my style, but who's to say that's right or wrong either? I have suggested builds for people on many occasions, if someone wants to just copy it verbatim then no sweat off my nose.
I figure that a lot of people actually enjoy knowing that people follow their advice. I am not bothered by people copying builds, though if the people that create the builds that are being copied all gravitate to some very similar events, I think something is a bit off. Not neccesarily problematic yet, but I think the people that create these "templates" will also enjoy if they create diverse builds and have the chance to discover some new approaches. If so much of the templates are based around the same core elements (like BFAW, PLasmonic Leech, Embassy Consoles), it gets repetitive and it becomes less creative.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Just because you paid for it does NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO **** ABOUT IT.
That's a pretty clear example of feedback from a customer. That's how that works. It's up to Cryptic to do what they want with the feedback. But the customer does have the right to complain about the service.
As somebody who has worked in retail...no. You are flat out wrong in this. I had somebody complain that their veggitarian entree had no meat in it. You think they had a right to complain about that? You think that was customer feedback? How about the guy who complain that their sweet and sour pork had prok and he can't eat that because he is Jewish? Was he in the right? Was that a clear example of customer feedback? Should we have not served sweet and sour pork because some idiot can't read? The EULA tells you EXACTLY what you are getting when you pay for something in this game. After you read that, you have EVERY right to decide if you want to spend money or not...but if you do and they do what is in the EULA, you have no right to complain.
This is essence the better argument. I would have been more subtle but we ALL knew they were going to "fix" these sooner or later. I would not consider it as an exploit as Argala farming was since STO encouraged the powercreep till they realized it needs to be balanced. However, in a similar way for those who were exploiting Argala (when DR launched) there has been lot of talk that the leech needed to be nerfed. Now we know why from blogs on Season 13.
And as long as I have to pay for everything, dearly, I will keep bitching about all these nerfs. Can't make it any more clear than that.
We can tell. Every post you've made here is just you whining that your copy-and-paste build is broken. Your conduct makes my five year-old nephew look a like a college professor by comparison.
...you know just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to be discourteous. I disagree with some of these nerfs, but I don't go around telling the players who support them that they are nitwits.
I'm not discourteous to others based on simple differences of opinion. That statement of yours is a flawed comparison in itself. That individual is not expressing an opinion at all.
Preferring chocolate to strawberry is a difference of opinion. Stating that bananas are purple is fiction.
Complaining that you've been caught breaking a rule, and saying you should be allowed to continue breaking it because no one has noticed for years is a deflection and a fallacy, not a valid argument or opinion.
I'll apologize for calling out obnoxious idiots when idiots apologize for being obnoxiously stupid, not a moment before.
Additionally, this is a public forum. If one doesn't want to be dressed down for saying something foolish, one should think before one types.
Flawed based on what? Your own argument is askew. If you had followed his posts over the course of this thread you would clearly be able to interpret what his opinion is... and I think you know what it is, but you don't like it.
Your argument is flawed in exactly the way I expressly stated it. I wasn't discourteous due to a difference of opinion. I was discourteous because I'm tired of the ceaseless whining and statement of falsehoods by that individual, and all the scores of others who are irrationally acting like the sky is falling because their favorite exploit has been taken away from them.
How exactly has he broken a rule? Equipment that has been in game for, in the case of plasmonic leech, years and has functioned essentially the same for said amount of time is not breaking a rule. Please tell me when something is released by cryptic in one of their lotto boxes and works really good are we suppose to avoid it because it might be breaking some unwritten rule? This is again a inaccurate assumption on your part.
I didn't say he was breaking a rule, I was making an allusion to illustrate why he is not presenting a logical argument or an opinion, but a fallacious falsehood. A broken exploit that has been unaccountably left in the game for years has FINALLY been fixed, and the argument that everyone is making (including him) is that because they've abused that exploit for years, they should be able to keep doing so and have the fix reversed. Frankly, no, the EULA clearly states the devs have carte blanche to alter anything they wish at will. The only thing that should be a shock to people is not that Plasmonic Leach and Embassy plasma consoles have finally been fixed, the shock is that it's taken years and a botched first attempt at addressing the issue for the exploit to finally be fixed.
Anyone playing stupid and pretending they don't realize they're exploiting something that is a result of bad game design is doing just that. If it's too good to be true, it'll get patched, so relying on something one should have the common sense to know is broken is no one's fault but the person who does it. I have zero pity for anyone upset by this change, zero.
So your last statement is basically that this is a public form so you will continue acting like a jerk just because. Another tough guy acting out over the internet? If that's how you get your jollies...
That isn't what I wrote, so I'm not sure how that seems to be what you read. If one doesn't want to be called stupid, one should not behave that way. If one doesn't want to be called a whiner, one should not whine. So, if someone is going to drag down the tenor and quality of discussion in a public forum, I see no reason to not call them out on said bad behavior. Turnabout is fair play. I can't help but notice the person in question hasn't disagreed with me. Perhaps because there is nothing I said about them or their non-argument that is substantively wrong, and therefore there is no rational argument to counter me with, just more whining.
I can respect peoples opinions, even when they goes against my own, if they present a compelling argument, but posting that someone is dumb just because you think so, or because you believe they are cheating by using a console that has been in the game for years, isn't a very compelling argument.
People aren't dumb or childish because I "think so". Using an objective set of standards, one can easily apprise someone who demonstrably behaves stupidly. In this case, it's not actual stupidity but rather playing stupid in an attempt to evade responsibility/concede defeat/admit fault, but the point remains and is still applicable. Once again, it's easy to spot something that's broken due to bad game design, so I have no pity for anyone who relies on such things as crutches.
I look at this balance pass primarily through the PVP lens. PVE is a challengeless cakewalk, these changes will no have no meaningful impact in PVE other than some people seeing a smaller number on their DPS logger, and I can't say my heart bleeds for that non-issue. These changes will however have an enormous and positive impact on PVP. Neutralized exploits provide an even playing field where skill will determine wins, not which player who knows about/has stockpiled enough broken gear to use to defeat people who are more skilled than them. No one but a poor sport/cheater is going to complain about that. New players deserve to have that experience, as PVP is the traditional endgame of MMOs.
EDIT: Responses in-line in italics.
So using your own set of so called objective standards you have come to the conclusion that people that use any of the abilities and consoles that are getting nerfed should admit they are at fault for using them? We as players are all suppose to TRIBBLE foot around avoiding anything that looks like it might be op because what? Because you decided through your own standards that it is so?
Looking at this from a PvP prospective the only positive changes I see are the changes to several of the physical damage abilities from the Temporal specialization. FaW and CSV are not overly powerful threats in PvP. Plasmonic leech isn't a threat unless it's on a dedicated drain build. I do agree with you that PvP needs work in this game (a lot of work...actually a complete overall), but if you believe that these changes will help bring about some kind of PvP renaissance I think you will be disappointed.
There will always be items that will be heavily used on most builds.
If you nerf the Leech to the point where it's completely useless, then something else will take it's place. Maybe it won't be as powerful, but it will always be there. The idea that something needs to be nerfed just because everyone uses it is short sided and silly. No matter what you do, there will always be 'must have items,' the only thing you do by constantly nerfing these items is perpetuate a never ending cycle of powercreep followed by nerfs like the one we're in now.
Don't get me wrong, if you feel that the Leech is too powerful then fair enough. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that a lot of people use it, then you need to change the way you're thinking.
On the topic of copy/paste builds.. if that's what someone wants to do then how is it hurting you? Personally, I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game, I like to use suggested builds for a baseline idea and adjust it to my style, but who's to say that's right or wrong either? I have suggested builds for people on many occasions, if someone wants to just copy it verbatim then no sweat off my nose.
Some people on this forum need to focus more on themselves and worry less about what others are doing.
This is basically how I feel. The one thing I really don't understand is how some of the members can ignore that this game is a never ending cycle of power creep. It is built on the release of power creep. These nerfs will be temporary and in the long run meaningless.
I would not consider it as an exploit as Argala farming was since STO encouraged the powercreep till they realized it needs to be balanced. However, in a similar way for those who were exploiting Argala (when DR launched) there has been lot of talk that the leech needed to be nerfed. Now we know why from blogs on Season 13.
Read: the Devs wilfully exploited the power creep, because they realized there was big bucks in it. All the while already planning to take it away one day (without a refund, of course).
that is considered as Bait switching tactic, also it is unethnical wrong for company to abuse EULA on players, all these stuffs should be throughly tested before update patches, players hate to get contents that seem so good and then seeing get nerfed within weeks.
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
You silly man! I stopped reading the forum for a few days (what's the point? Game is dead anyway). Thanks for reminding me why, though.
As for my mom buying me toys, LOL, you really don't have the vaguest clue, do you?! Let me spell it out for you: I followed the exact 'effective method of getting what you want', namely: thru buying my toys, from Cryptic. No one did that for me. Hence, I do not like my toys being taken away from me (unless I get reimbursed for them, which, of course, won't happen). If all Upgrades had been for free (and spare me stories about having 20+ alts, and not having to pay a dime), I would have cared considerably less. Now, however, I'm seeing hundreds - if not thousands -- of bucks being deliberately thrown down the drain(x), because, um, why again exactly?! Because a certain Dev didn't get his wish last year, and now is on a for-spite nerf spree!?! That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me at all. Maybe fun for him, but not for me.
I see several ppl welcoming these nerfs too, with open arms no less, even those who spent a lot. I don't get that at all. I say, instead, these ppl should have just slotted a single weapon or something, and have self-nerfed the sh*t out of their own builds. Instead, they decided that everyone be dragged down along with them.
that is considered as Bait switching tactic, also it is unethnical wrong for company to abuse EULA on players, all these stuffs should be throughly tested before update patches, players hate to get contents that seem so good and then seeing get nerfed within weeks.
Yeah, Leech didn't 'get nerfed within weeks', of course. But no one can tell me they haven't been very deliberate about exploiting the power creep, to the max, for monetary gain.
Others have argued -- quite amusingly, actually -- that we all saw this coming. To which I then say: if so, then so did the Devs! Which makes their selling said power creep all the more unethical. Kinda like selling bad mortgages, when you already know the faux 'hausse' is unsustainable. But the money is already in, so what do they care, right?!
[
But, I have to ask: Where you here before Delta Rising? I seem to remember you were, but I am not entirely certain.
FTR, I've been here since like 2 days before PWE took over from Atari. And I remember them saying they'd keep calling it the 'C-Store' (a promise they actually kept).
But if you were, you already did go through one big nerfing process already. Delta Rising nerfed all our gear to no longer be the best there was,
True. But it wasn't all that bad, per se; 1 piece of rep-gear costed like 38,500 Dilithium, iirc.
and all our ships suddenly became obsolete. And I am certain you upgraded your gear and bought new ships.
DR brought the dreaded Upgrade system. Everything you upgraded to Epic afterwards, you did at an astronimical cost (compared to a fixed handful of Dil before). So, the monetary loss is now considerably higher.
Besides, DR at least offered a way to get back to using top-gear again. This time around, there's no way to buy anything to 'undo' Bort's nerfs: you're just stuck at being horribly gimped, for spite, and because certain players liked to spice things up a little. And with an invitation to buy everything anew, of course, later on (at DR-comparable upgrade cost, no doubt). The latter I will no longer do. The Upgrade system was a once-but-never-again deal for me. Bort, as you announced, will apparently still be selling many shiny things to you in the future, but no longer to me.
This is basically how I feel. The one thing I really don't understand is how some of the members can ignore that this game is a never ending cycle of power creep. It is built on the release of power creep. These nerfs will be temporary and in the long run meaningless.
I understand where you are coming from and why you feel this way.
In light of "season 13", if Cryptic is going to invest in more "competitive PvE" or straight up PvP content, then they should be keeping a closer eye on selling straight-up power creep. Not only will it undermine the current balance pass, but it threatens to upset the content they are aiming for.
If they are serious about maintaining their PvP players on console, things should be different. Time will tell, of course.
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
Have the plasmonic leech or the embassy consoles or any of the other stuff that is getting nerfed been mean to you when you were a child or anything?
Just wondering. I understand that the topic polarizes but you seem to really get fanatic over it.
Ad Hominem: Attacking the character of an opponent other than their point. Your argument is invalid. I accept your admission of defeat.
Pretending you had a point though (which you'd didn't), no. I have a Plasmonic Leach, and I've used a single plasma console in a ship. I've used multiple plasma consoles in science ships, as the design actually intended.
I'm fanatical in regards to whiners and stupid people. A bit of a coincidence that such people are complaining bitterly about this issue, or non-issue, for anyone who plays primarily/only plays PVE. For PVP , it and other shield-penetrating mechanics are stupidly broken mega issues.
So, given your snark, are you one of those people who need to lean on broken mechanics to pretend as if you're an "elite" person who knows how to play? As if being good at a video game is an achievement at life?
Post edited by vampeiyre on
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
And as long as I have to pay for everything, dearly, I will keep bitching about all these nerfs. Can't make it any more clear than that.
We can tell. Every post you've made here is just you whining that your copy-and-paste build is broken. Your conduct makes my five year-old nephew look a like a college professor by comparison.
...you know just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you need to be discourteous. I disagree with some of these nerfs, but I don't go around telling the players who support them that they are nitwits.
I'm not discourteous to others based on simple differences of opinion. That statement of yours is a flawed comparison in itself. That individual is not expressing an opinion at all.
Preferring chocolate to strawberry is a difference of opinion. Stating that bananas are purple is fiction.
Complaining that you've been caught breaking a rule, and saying you should be allowed to continue breaking it because no one has noticed for years is a deflection and a fallacy, not a valid argument or opinion.
I'll apologize for calling out obnoxious idiots when idiots apologize for being obnoxiously stupid, not a moment before.
Additionally, this is a public forum. If one doesn't want to be dressed down for saying something foolish, one should think before one types.
Flawed based on what? Your own argument is askew. If you had followed his posts over the course of this thread you would clearly be able to interpret what his opinion is... and I think you know what it is, but you don't like it.
Your argument is flawed in exactly the way I expressly stated it. I wasn't discourteous due to a difference of opinion. I was discourteous because I'm tired of the ceaseless whining and statement of falsehoods by that individual, and all the scores of others who are irrationally acting like the sky is falling because their favorite exploit has been taken away from them.
How exactly has he broken a rule? Equipment that has been in game for, in the case of plasmonic leech, years and has functioned essentially the same for said amount of time is not breaking a rule. Please tell me when something is released by cryptic in one of their lotto boxes and works really good are we suppose to avoid it because it might be breaking some unwritten rule? This is again a inaccurate assumption on your part.
I didn't say he was breaking a rule, I was making an allusion to illustrate why he is not presenting a logical argument or an opinion, but a fallacious falsehood. A broken exploit that has been unaccountably left in the game for years has FINALLY been fixed, and the argument that everyone is making (including him) is that because they've abused that exploit for years, they should be able to keep doing so and have the fix reversed. Frankly, no, the EULA clearly states the devs have carte blanche to alter anything they wish at will. The only thing that should be a shock to people is not that Plasmonic Leach and Embassy plasma consoles have finally been fixed, the shock is that it's taken years and a botched first attempt at addressing the issue for the exploit to finally be fixed.
Anyone playing stupid and pretending they don't realize they're exploiting something that is a result of bad game design is doing just that. If it's too good to be true, it'll get patched, so relying on something one should have the common sense to know is broken is no one's fault but the person who does it. I have zero pity for anyone upset by this change, zero.
So your last statement is basically that this is a public form so you will continue acting like a jerk just because. Another tough guy acting out over the internet? If that's how you get your jollies...
That isn't what I wrote, so I'm not sure how that seems to be what you read. If one doesn't want to be called stupid, one should not behave that way. If one doesn't want to be called a whiner, one should not whine. So, if someone is going to drag down the tenor and quality of discussion in a public forum, I see no reason to not call them out on said bad behavior. Turnabout is fair play. I can't help but notice the person in question hasn't disagreed with me. Perhaps because there is nothing I said about them or their non-argument that is substantively wrong, and therefore there is no rational argument to counter me with, just more whining.
I can respect peoples opinions, even when they goes against my own, if they present a compelling argument, but posting that someone is dumb just because you think so, or because you believe they are cheating by using a console that has been in the game for years, isn't a very compelling argument.
People aren't dumb or childish because I "think so". Using an objective set of standards, one can easily apprise someone who demonstrably behaves stupidly. In this case, it's not actual stupidity but rather playing stupid in an attempt to evade responsibility/concede defeat/admit fault, but the point remains and is still applicable. Once again, it's easy to spot something that's broken due to bad game design, so I have no pity for anyone who relies on such things as crutches.
I look at this balance pass primarily through the PVP lens. PVE is a challengeless cakewalk, these changes will no have no meaningful impact in PVE other than some people seeing a smaller number on their DPS logger, and I can't say my heart bleeds for that non-issue. These changes will however have an enormous and positive impact on PVP. Neutralized exploits provide an even playing field where skill will determine wins, not which player who knows about/has stockpiled enough broken gear to use to defeat people who are more skilled than them. No one but a poor sport/cheater is going to complain about that. New players deserve to have that experience, as PVP is the traditional endgame of MMOs.
EDIT: Responses in-line in italics.
So using your own set of so called objective standards you have come to the conclusion that people that use any of the abilities and consoles that are getting nerfed should admit they are at fault for using them? We as players are all suppose to **** foot around avoiding anything that looks like it might be op because what? Because you decided through your own standards that it is so?
No, not my subjective standards (as you oddly seem to keep referring to as if they're a thing), objective standards. Common sense, if it's too good to be true, it is, so don't count on it. A number of people exploited bad game mechanics, and are complaining because they were taken away. It doesn't matter that it took an unusually long amount of time for them to be taken away, they were, and rightly so. If you know what you're doing, it doesn't matter. If you copied someone's exploitative idea, and that was what you relied on for the majority of your DPS, you're a whiney fool, end of story. You're teetering close to ad hominem territory, where you invalidate your own argument by essentially not having one and attacking your opponent's character, BTW.
Looking at this from a PvP prospective the only positive changes I see are the changes to several of the physical damage abilities from the Temporal specialization. FaW and CSV are not overly powerful threats in PvP. Plasmonic leech isn't a threat unless it's on a dedicated drain build. I do agree with you that PvP needs work in this game (a lot of work...actually a complete overall), but if you believe that these changes will help bring about some kind of PvP renaissance I think you will be disappointed.
No, I will not be disappointed. Leach plus plasma consoles have been nerfed and brought back in line with the original design intentions of managing threat, boosting science captains, and adding some damage buffs to science captains, as opposed to being secondary tac consoles. Tac captains can no longer exponentially abuse already exploitative leech & embassy console mechanics with APA, they can no longer cheat death infinitely by chaining GDF with LDE on infinite uptime via Strategist in concert with Invincible and Continuity from the Temporal Specialization. All the PVP inequities I had have been addressed. I am quite the opposite of being disappointed.
There will always be items that will be heavily used on most builds.
If you nerf the Leech to the point where it's completely useless, then something else will take it's place. Maybe it won't be as powerful, but it will always be there. The idea that something needs to be nerfed just because everyone uses it is short sided and silly. No matter what you do, there will always be 'must have items,' the only thing you do by constantly nerfing these items is perpetuate a never ending cycle of powercreep followed by nerfs like the one we're in now.
Leech and embassy consoles were a must-have because they were broken, hence an exploit. Exploits should always be fixed. Frankly, game design should be more thorough so exploits aren't introduced, as they always have to be corrected (or nerfed, as non-factors like to call it) ultimately.
Don't get me wrong, if you feel that the Leech is too powerful then fair enough. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that a lot of people use it, then you need to change the way you're thinking.
If it's a must-have in an MMO RPG, it's broken. There is no logical way to argue against that. You have no point.
On the topic of copy/paste builds.. if that's what someone wants to do then how is it hurting you? Personally, I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game, I like to use suggested builds for a baseline idea and adjust it to my style, but who's to say that's right or wrong either? I have suggested builds for people on many occasions, if someone wants to just copy it verbatim then no sweat off my nose.
I PVP, the traditional end-game of MMOs. PVP here is broken because of exploitation of poor game designing resulting in unfair mechanics. Exploits=cheating: unfair advantages that affect everyone. PVE could not possibly be any easier so these changes hurt no one. PVP is a very different issue. Cheating/an unfair fight is universally considered to be wrong, hence rules and referees in every sport or game in existence. Perhaps thinking before you speak might be something you should consider?
Some people on this forum need to focus more on themselves and worry less about what others are doing.
This is basically how I feel. The one thing I really don't understand is how some of the members can ignore that this game is a never ending cycle of power creep. It is built on the release of power creep. These nerfs will be temporary and in the long run meaningless.
Power creep is not an issue at all. It's fun, even. However, power creep becomes a problem if it's gifted to only one out of three classes, and/or broken mechanics can be exploited to exponential effectiveness by only one class due to power creep gifted only/primarily to them.
But hey, I must be wrong, it's not as if the current dev(s) in charge of balance are acting in accordance to class and PVP fairness guided by objective, universal ideas of fairness and good sport. Oh wait . . .
Responses in italics.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
You silly man! I stopped reading the forum for a few days (what's the point? Game is dead anyway). Thanks for reminding me why, though.
As for my mom buying me toys, LOL, you really don't have the vaguest clue, do you?! Let me spell it out for you: I followed the exact 'effective method of getting what you want', namely: thru buying my toys, from Cryptic. No one did that for me. Hence, I do not like my toys being taken away from me (unless I get reimbursed for them, which, of course, won't happen). If all Upgrades had been for free (and spare me stories about having 20+ alts, and not having to pay a dime), I would have cared considerably less. Now, however, I'm seeing hundreds - if not thousands -- of bucks being deliberately thrown down the drain(x), because, um, why again exactly?! Because a certain Dev didn't get his wish last year, and now is on a for-spite nerf spree!?! That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me at all. Maybe fun for him, but not for me.
I see several ppl welcoming these nerfs too, with open arms no less, even those who spent a lot. I don't get that at all. I say, instead, these ppl should have just slotted a single weapon or something, and have self-nerfed the sh*t out of their own builds. Instead, they decided that everyone be dragged down along with them.
So just more whining because your obviously exploitative toys were taken away, which is tantamount to admitting you have no idea what you're doing, and can't survive on a fair and even playing field? Pretty much what I expected. You have no issues, learn to play or go away.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
You silly man! I stopped reading the forum for a few days (what's the point? Game is dead anyway). Thanks for reminding me why, though.
As for my mom buying me toys, LOL, you really don't have the vaguest clue, do you?! Let me spell it out for you: I followed the exact 'effective method of getting what you want', namely: thru buying my toys, from Cryptic. No one did that for me. Hence, I do not like my toys being taken away from me (unless I get reimbursed for them, which, of course, won't happen). If all Upgrades had been for free (and spare me stories about having 20+ alts, and not having to pay a dime), I would have cared considerably less. Now, however, I'm seeing hundreds - if not thousands -- of bucks being deliberately thrown down the drain(x), because, um, why again exactly?! Because a certain Dev didn't get his wish last year, and now is on a for-spite nerf spree!?! That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me at all. Maybe fun for him, but not for me.
I see several ppl welcoming these nerfs too, with open arms no less, even those who spent a lot. I don't get that at all. I say, instead, these ppl should have just slotted a single weapon or something, and have self-nerfed the sh*t out of their own builds. Instead, they decided that everyone be dragged down along with them.
So just more whining because your obviously exploitative toys were taken away, which is tantamount to admitting you have no idea what you're doing, and can't survive on a fair and even playing field? Pretty much what I expected. You have no issues, learn to play or go away.
So you complain about ad hominem attacks, but have no troubles issuing them yourself?
Anyhow, you do realize that meimeitoo and peterconnorfirst you like to call noobs are actually some of the most expert players, from those who regularly post to forums, right?
Kicking and screaming until your mommy buys you the toy you want may have worked as a child, but I think you'll find that's not a very effective method of getting what you want as an adult.
You silly man! I stopped reading the forum for a few days (what's the point? Game is dead anyway). Thanks for reminding me why, though.
As for my mom buying me toys, LOL, you really don't have the vaguest clue, do you?! Let me spell it out for you: I followed the exact 'effective method of getting what you want', namely: thru buying my toys, from Cryptic. No one did that for me. Hence, I do not like my toys being taken away from me (unless I get reimbursed for them, which, of course, won't happen). If all Upgrades had been for free (and spare me stories about having 20+ alts, and not having to pay a dime), I would have cared considerably less. Now, however, I'm seeing hundreds - if not thousands -- of bucks being deliberately thrown down the drain(x), because, um, why again exactly?! Because a certain Dev didn't get his wish last year, and now is on a for-spite nerf spree!?! That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me at all. Maybe fun for him, but not for me.
I see several ppl welcoming these nerfs too, with open arms no less, even those who spent a lot. I don't get that at all. I say, instead, these ppl should have just slotted a single weapon or something, and have self-nerfed the sh*t out of their own builds. Instead, they decided that everyone be dragged down along with them.
So just more whining because your obviously exploitative toys were taken away, which is tantamount to admitting you have no idea what you're doing, and can't survive on a fair and even playing field? Pretty much what I expected. You have no issues, learn to play or go away.
So you complain about ad hominem attacks, but have no troubles issuing them yourself?
An ad hominem fallacy is making an unwarranted attack on your opponent's character rather than their argument, as their argument cannot be logically attacked or debated. I've done no such thing. You may wish to educate yourself on the definition of a word or concept before you attempt to debate or complain about it, you can easily avoid embarrassment in this way.
Anyhow, you do realize that meimeitoo and peterconnorfirst you like to call noobs are actually some of the most expert players, from those who regularly post to forums, right?
I called meimeitoo a whiner as they have went out of their way to demonstrate that they are exactly that. I've called peterconnorfirst nothing at all. Aren't you paying attention to the debate you're attempting to engage in, or are you just an edge lord attempting and failing at being clever?
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
are you just an edge lord attempting and failing at being clever?
I could ask you the very same thing.
Except you'd have no basis to do so, as I'm presenting arguments based on reasoning, while you're just presenting empty rhetoric with neither argument nor reasoning. You do know that you have to present an actual logical argument based on reasoning to win a debate, don't you? Rhetoric is the ornament you wrap an argument in, or the underline/exclamation point to it, not a replacement for the argument itself. Try again.
"I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am."
Comments
Copy and pasting an entire build and using plasmonic leech as part of a build are two entirely different things.
As somebody who worked in tech support, nah, I'm pretty spot on with this. People complain like that every single day. And it's well within their rights as a customer to complain. People have been complaining to Cryptic about this game since it's very beginning.
What Cryptic does with those complaints is totally up to them. But as customers of their services, people can and do complain about Star Trek Online. Every single day.
My character Tsin'xing
People aren't dumb or childish because I "think so". Using an objective set of standards, one can easily apprise someone who demonstrably behaves stupidly. In this case, it's not actual stupidity but rather playing stupid in an attempt to evade responsibility/concede defeat/admit fault, but the point remains and is still applicable. Once again, it's easy to spot something that's broken due to bad game design, so I have no pity for anyone who relies on such things as crutches.
I look at this balance pass primarily through the PVP lens. PVE is a challengeless cakewalk, these changes will no have no meaningful impact in PVE other than some people seeing a smaller number on their DPS logger, and I can't say my heart bleeds for that non-issue. These changes will however have an enormous and positive impact on PVP. Neutralized exploits provide an even playing field where skill will determine wins, not which player who knows about/has stockpiled enough broken gear to use to defeat people who are more skilled than them. No one but a poor sport/cheater is going to complain about that. New players deserve to have that experience, as PVP is the traditional endgame of MMOs.
EDIT: Responses in-line in italics.
Copying and pasting the number one exploited mechanic in the game is just that. My point is unbroken in the face of your straw man fallacy, and will remain so.
Have the plasmonic leech or the embassy consoles or any of the other stuff that is getting nerfed been mean to you when you were a child or anything?
Just wondering. I understand that the topic polarizes but you seem to really get fanatic over it.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
If you nerf the Leech to the point where it's completely useless, then something else will take it's place. Maybe it won't be as powerful, but it will always be there. The idea that something needs to be nerfed just because everyone uses it is short sided and silly. No matter what you do, there will always be 'must have items,' the only thing you do by constantly nerfing these items is perpetuate a never ending cycle of powercreep followed by nerfs like the one we're in now.
Don't get me wrong, if you feel that the Leech is too powerful then fair enough. If you're basing your opinion on the fact that a lot of people use it, then you need to change the way you're thinking.
On the topic of copy/paste builds.. if that's what someone wants to do then how is it hurting you? Personally, I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game, I like to use suggested builds for a baseline idea and adjust it to my style, but who's to say that's right or wrong either? I have suggested builds for people on many occasions, if someone wants to just copy it verbatim then no sweat off my nose.
Some people on this forum need to focus more on themselves and worry less about what others are doing.
My character Tsin'xing
The same I tried to deliver a few pages back in this thread: There will always be OP stuff because it bankrolls the game.
Use it and live with it or don't and get over it. The stuff is going to get nerved and those who didn’t like to use it are still not over it.
Sorry but that’s a bit too traumatic for my videogame taste.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
1) Really on most? I could easily imagine that different builds actualy have different top chosen consoles.
2) There is also the magnitude of how strong the difference is.
Plasmonic Leech gave free significant energy level benefits that no other console - incuding those specifically geared to boost your power levels (and didn't also drain power from your enemy) didn't.
Embassy Consoles contributed a signfiicant portion of damage to ship builds - larger than many other abilities specifically designed to boost your DPS, and not also your science skills and threat scaling.
If an item or ability is chosen primarily for one of several benefits it provides, and it's chosen by the majority of high performing builds, something looks odd.
It's a fair starting point to check if something might be overpowered. Likewise, it's a good starting point to see what almost no one takes to check if something might be underpowered.
I figure that a lot of people actually enjoy knowing that people follow their advice. I am not bothered by people copying builds, though if the people that create the builds that are being copied all gravitate to some very similar events, I think something is a bit off. Not neccesarily problematic yet, but I think the people that create these "templates" will also enjoy if they create diverse builds and have the chance to discover some new approaches. If so much of the templates are based around the same core elements (like BFAW, PLasmonic Leech, Embassy Consoles), it gets repetitive and it becomes less creative.
This is essence the better argument. I would have been more subtle but we ALL knew they were going to "fix" these sooner or later. I would not consider it as an exploit as Argala farming was since STO encouraged the powercreep till they realized it needs to be balanced. However, in a similar way for those who were exploiting Argala (when DR launched) there has been lot of talk that the leech needed to be nerfed. Now we know why from blogs on Season 13.
Original STO beta tester.
So using your own set of so called objective standards you have come to the conclusion that people that use any of the abilities and consoles that are getting nerfed should admit they are at fault for using them? We as players are all suppose to TRIBBLE foot around avoiding anything that looks like it might be op because what? Because you decided through your own standards that it is so?
Looking at this from a PvP prospective the only positive changes I see are the changes to several of the physical damage abilities from the Temporal specialization. FaW and CSV are not overly powerful threats in PvP. Plasmonic leech isn't a threat unless it's on a dedicated drain build. I do agree with you that PvP needs work in this game (a lot of work...actually a complete overall), but if you believe that these changes will help bring about some kind of PvP renaissance I think you will be disappointed.
This is basically how I feel. The one thing I really don't understand is how some of the members can ignore that this game is a never ending cycle of power creep. It is built on the release of power creep. These nerfs will be temporary and in the long run meaningless.
Read: the Devs wilfully exploited the power creep, because they realized there was big bucks in it. All the while already planning to take it away one day (without a refund, of course).
You silly man! I stopped reading the forum for a few days (what's the point? Game is dead anyway). Thanks for reminding me why, though.
As for my mom buying me toys, LOL, you really don't have the vaguest clue, do you?! Let me spell it out for you: I followed the exact 'effective method of getting what you want', namely: thru buying my toys, from Cryptic. No one did that for me. Hence, I do not like my toys being taken away from me (unless I get reimbursed for them, which, of course, won't happen). If all Upgrades had been for free (and spare me stories about having 20+ alts, and not having to pay a dime), I would have cared considerably less. Now, however, I'm seeing hundreds - if not thousands -- of bucks being deliberately thrown down the drain(x), because, um, why again exactly?! Because a certain Dev didn't get his wish last year, and now is on a for-spite nerf spree!?! That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me at all. Maybe fun for him, but not for me.
I see several ppl welcoming these nerfs too, with open arms no less, even those who spent a lot. I don't get that at all. I say, instead, these ppl should have just slotted a single weapon or something, and have self-nerfed the sh*t out of their own builds. Instead, they decided that everyone be dragged down along with them.
Yeah, Leech didn't 'get nerfed within weeks', of course. But no one can tell me they haven't been very deliberate about exploiting the power creep, to the max, for monetary gain.
Others have argued -- quite amusingly, actually -- that we all saw this coming. To which I then say: if so, then so did the Devs! Which makes their selling said power creep all the more unethical. Kinda like selling bad mortgages, when you already know the faux 'hausse' is unsustainable. But the money is already in, so what do they care, right?!
FTR, I've been here since like 2 days before PWE took over from Atari.
True. But it wasn't all that bad, per se; 1 piece of rep-gear costed like 38,500 Dilithium, iirc.
DR brought the dreaded Upgrade system. Everything you upgraded to Epic afterwards, you did at an astronimical cost (compared to a fixed handful of Dil before). So, the monetary loss is now considerably higher.
Besides, DR at least offered a way to get back to using top-gear again. This time around, there's no way to buy anything to 'undo' Bort's nerfs: you're just stuck at being horribly gimped, for spite, and because certain players liked to spice things up a little. And with an invitation to buy everything anew, of course, later on (at DR-comparable upgrade cost, no doubt). The latter I will no longer do. The Upgrade system was a once-but-never-again deal for me. Bort, as you announced, will apparently still be selling many shiny things to you in the future, but no longer to me.
In light of "season 13", if Cryptic is going to invest in more "competitive PvE" or straight up PvP content, then they should be keeping a closer eye on selling straight-up power creep. Not only will it undermine the current balance pass, but it threatens to upset the content they are aiming for.
If they are serious about maintaining their PvP players on console, things should be different. Time will tell, of course.
Ad Hominem: Attacking the character of an opponent other than their point. Your argument is invalid. I accept your admission of defeat.
Pretending you had a point though (which you'd didn't), no. I have a Plasmonic Leach, and I've used a single plasma console in a ship. I've used multiple plasma consoles in science ships, as the design actually intended.
I'm fanatical in regards to whiners and stupid people. A bit of a coincidence that such people are complaining bitterly about this issue, or non-issue, for anyone who plays primarily/only plays PVE. For PVP , it and other shield-penetrating mechanics are stupidly broken mega issues.
So, given your snark, are you one of those people who need to lean on broken mechanics to pretend as if you're an "elite" person who knows how to play? As if being good at a video game is an achievement at life?
Power creep is not an issue at all. It's fun, even. However, power creep becomes a problem if it's gifted to only one out of three classes, and/or broken mechanics can be exploited to exponential effectiveness by only one class due to power creep gifted only/primarily to them.
But hey, I must be wrong, it's not as if the current dev(s) in charge of balance are acting in accordance to class and PVP fairness guided by objective, universal ideas of fairness and good sport. Oh wait . . .
Responses in italics.
So just more whining because your obviously exploitative toys were taken away, which is tantamount to admitting you have no idea what you're doing, and can't survive on a fair and even playing field? Pretty much what I expected. You have no issues, learn to play or go away.
So you complain about ad hominem attacks, but have no troubles issuing them yourself?
Anyhow, you do realize that meimeitoo and peterconnorfirst you like to call noobs are actually some of the most expert players, from those who regularly post to forums, right?
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I called meimeitoo a whiner as they have went out of their way to demonstrate that they are exactly that. I've called peterconnorfirst nothing at all. Aren't you paying attention to the debate you're attempting to engage in, or are you just an edge lord attempting and failing at being clever?
I could ask you the very same thing.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Except you'd have no basis to do so, as I'm presenting arguments based on reasoning, while you're just presenting empty rhetoric with neither argument nor reasoning. You do know that you have to present an actual logical argument based on reasoning to win a debate, don't you? Rhetoric is the ornament you wrap an argument in, or the underline/exclamation point to it, not a replacement for the argument itself. Try again.
..oh wait, it's already April? Carry on.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I accept your admission of defeat. I understand the Science Channel is not the Debate Channel. Carry on.