Only thing I'm hoping is they add a (pretty useless, I know) defence boost to the pilot maneuvers of the pilot warbirds/raptor/jj bop/escort when the immunity lockout arrives
The immunity of the pilot maneuvers was the selling point of the ship series so its akin to removing the lance from the gal x with no reimbursement (but I do understand why the imunity had to go, it was far too easy to shug off obscene amounts of firepower)
Or, raise the fuel tank refill rate - I'd gladly lose all immunity from the moves if I could use them more actively in combat (I am a speed demon who thinks 100 impulse is granny pace so my opinion might not mesh with others, mind)
second problem behind relevance would be rewards and reward structures-and that would require more work than the maps to make something that isn't going to be automatically abused and exploited the way the old PvP rewards were.
There is no point wasting any time on something like that. If you start with the premise that player cooperation is "exploiting," the only way to prevent that is to not have PvP rewards at all.
it's not "cooperation" that was the problem, it was "cooperating to throw the match."
sort of like...the owners of two football teams getting together, and agreeing that one team will basically not play and let the other team score because both teams will get paid the same as they would if they actually play the game.
a fix to the reward system could reduce or prevent that-but it's a lot of work for a marginal activity.
No, it couldn't. Regardless of reward system, it's always an advantage if players are cooperating to boost rewards instead of competing against eachother. If that's a "problem," then you can't have rewards for PvP.
Which is why Cryptic "fixed" that by nerfing the rewards to the point PvP is no longer attractive compared to other activities at all, even when boosting.
there's the rub, Warpangel, when the rewards are identical regardless of outcome (15-0 teamwipe rewards exactly the same as 15-14 closely fought match), and without regards to win/loss (losing pays as much as winning) you get exactly the exploit the devs rightly and correctly removed.
If rewards are higher for 15-14 (space arena), and the winner gets more than the loser, then 'cooperating' for better rewards means both teams try very hard to win (and seek out better opponents to fight), but not so much that the fight is one-sided. It favours the random match or the match between competing premades over the 'close the room and throw th e game' Private matches that were the reason the rewards were gutted to begin with.
No, it means players would cooperate to intentionally always hit 15-14 as fast as possible and take turns winning.
the only way it can work, is if the best rewards come from the hardest fought matches. Think of it as a sport-does it make sense to pit an NFL Linebacker against a team of your local lower-tier high schoolers?
no. whether it's American football, hockey, world "Futbol", your pros are paid like pros because they're playing other pros. audiences don't turn out for obviously one-sided matches that were obvous from the announcement on.
welllll...a working PvP reward system should definitely angle the rewards to favor tight, hard-fought matches over one-sided stomps. It's pretty well established that an actual handicapping system isn't in the works, and might not function correctly if it were developed-handicapping or "Matchmaking" or "BV" systems are notoriously finicky things that require constant maintenance and often STILL don't work as intended.
There is no way for the game to tell the difference between "tight, hard-fought matches" and players cooperating to hit whatever criteria it uses to assign reward.
a system where 'cooperating for the greater rewards' requires that both sides put up the best fight they can, that MIGHT work. Purple ribbons as was being abused have already proven to fail.
No such system can possibly exist.
I have a few ways to address it...but you won't like the idea.
1. Reputation earnings only locked to public queues.
2. scaled results based on how close a match is.
3. bonuses for kills in-match.
4. winning pays more than losing.
if you can't earn from a private, arranged match, it's a lot harder to find someone who'll throw the fight. if your results are scaled to how close the results are, you've got a motive to fight harder. If you're the one delivering the kill-shot, you get more than the guy who just showed up, and finally, winning pays more than losing, which means throwing the fight gets you less than winning it does.
Why wouldn't I "like" the idea? I don't care, either the rewards are worth playing for or I play something else.
Though, "winning pays more than losing" + "pugs only" = "team with a full hardcore premade or lose every time" so casuals who actually wanted to PvP for real probably wouldn't like it much.
Bonuses for kills (also deaths) already exist, though only for KDF.
Since arranging a 15-14 in a pug full of party crashers would probably be too unreliable to be worth trying, reward-minded people would of course calculate whether the likely result of losing the match to some premade gankers 15-0 is competitive with other activities or not to play at all. Just like we do now.
Hoping Science doesn't get smacked to hard with the nerf bat.
FBP being scaled back
SSV being nerfed
GW being nerfed
Aux power being reworked.
Not looking to good
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Hoping Science doesn't get smacked to hard with the nerf bat.
FBP being scaled back
SSV being nerfed
GW being nerfed
Aux power being reworked.
Not looking to good
Well you forgot:
DRB being nerfed
TBR being nerfed
BUffs!
Tykens got a damage and Drain buff that Id LOVE to see go live..
Photonic Shock-wave got a buff
Also my Dyson proton consoles are now almost 2x the damage.
FBP wasn't just scaled back. It essentially is unattached (to Crit H and Crit D Exotic or Damage buff) and capped (at 50%, 75%, or 100%).Its one of the few science abilities that don't do some form of secondary radiation damage from the secondary deflectors in addition to its other downsides..
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
For those that don't understand all of the technical changes, what is going to be obsolete when the changes come?
Copying and pasting builds from reddit.
And what will be the new hotness?
Thinking for yourself.
Not at all true since new builds will be posted on Reddit.
Absolutely. But now it might be the chance to figure out the new build that everyone else is copying. Or not.
The filthy casuals will just wait it out.
Soph will get an ego stroke for a little while, but in the end, the paradigm he thinks is going to change won't even hit a speedbump, when it comes to cookie cutter builds.
The cookies will just have different shapes in a month or two.
For those that don't understand all of the technical changes, what is going to be obsolete when the changes come?
Copying and pasting builds from reddit.
And what will be the new hotness?
Thinking for yourself.
Players thinking for themselves came up with those reddit builds. On the contrary, the goal of the nerfathon is to stop players thinking for themselves coming up with something better. To remove all the high points you'd actually want to think about when designing a build in favor of a flat plain of equality. It'll fail, of course, and the new reddit builds will be copied just like the old ones. But whatever.
Hoping Science doesn't get smacked to hard with the nerf bat.
FBP being scaled back
SSV being nerfed
GW being nerfed
Aux power being reworked.
Not looking to good
Actually, with the changes to aux power on tribble, people are seeing things like GW do MORE damage then before.
The reduction in base damage was negated by the increase in damage gained from the changes to aux power.
Not anymore. The damage numbers on GW and SSV were toned down again and appear to be lower on Tribble than currently on Holodeck, cause they displayed too high numbers (apparently due to a bug) before.
Not anymore. The damage numbers on GW and SSV were toned down again and appear to be lower on Tribble than currently on Holodeck, cause they displayed too high numbers (apparently due to a bug) before.
Not sure where you heard that.
On reddit people are talking about them still doing slightly more damage then before been after the damage got toned down.
Personal experience. My own GW/SSV numbers on Tribble are not as awful as I was afraid of, but they are still significantly lower than on Holodeck.
Not anymore. The damage numbers on GW and SSV were toned down again and appear to be lower on Tribble than currently on Holodeck, cause they displayed too high numbers (apparently due to a bug) before.
Not sure where you heard that.
On reddit people are talking about them still doing slightly more damage then before been after the damage got toned down.
he heard it the same place everyone else heard it - the march 23rd tribble patch notes
of course, cryptic being cryptic, they didn't give specific figures for just HOW MUCH they were toned down
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Depending on the Public queue you use, and how wide the spread is. Cryptic gets a lot of **** from (well, me these days) over how they've handled a few aspects of the game like PvP... but they have tried in the past, the community asked for a PvP queue map that prevented premades-and we got a whole queue.
and nobody uses it.
It does, in fact, everything that was being asked for....and nobody uses it.
Here's my estimated curve for rewards, and yeah, it's not nice.
Base curve:
15/14: 150% listed reward (Listed Reward should be roughly equal to an Elite STF.)
15/10-15/8: Listed reward. (this is actually an average outcome when both sides are fighting.)
15/7-15/6: 75% listed reward
15/5-15/4: 50% Listed Reward
15/3: 25%
15/2 to 15/1: 25%
15/0: 5% of listed reward (roughly equal to what you get from a failed Cure Normal.)
Win/loss:
winning team picks up 5% of the post-curve reward in addition.
Cryptic will do what they're going to do, and players will ALWAYS look for ways to game the system.
Seriously? That curve is so atrociously backwards the queues would have nothing but reward boosters running 15/14's in them*. Forget party crashers, only intentional trolls would fight for real and risk ending up with 5%.
* Except if your "listed reward" refers to the ridiculously low 1,440 for 3 runs as it is now, in which case the queues would just stay empty. 150% is nowhere near enough.
Hoping Science doesn't get smacked to hard with the nerf bat.
FBP being scaled back
SSV being nerfed
GW being nerfed
Aux power being reworked.
Not looking to good
Well you forgot:
DRB being nerfed
TBR being nerfed
BUffs!
Tykens got a damage and Drain buff that Id LOVE to see go live..
Photonic Shock-wave got a buff
Also my Dyson proton consoles are now almost 2x the damage.
FBP wasn't just scaled back. It essentially is unattached (to Crit H and Crit D Exotic or Damage buff) and capped (at 50%, 75%, or 100%).Its one of the few science abilities that don't do some form of secondary radiation damage from the secondary deflectors in addition to its other downsides..
So basically unless running a drain build the main offensive space Sci powers being Gravity Well/Subspace Vortex/Feedback Pulse and Tractor Beam Repulsors (Using the doff to make them pull instead of push) are getting crippled ?
There's a nice new 3 Pack KDF Science ship bundle in the C-Store, with these nerfs I think I won't be adding them to my Fleet.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Depending on the Public queue you use, and how wide the spread is. Cryptic gets a lot of **** from (well, me these days) over how they've handled a few aspects of the game like PvP... but they have tried in the past, the community asked for a PvP queue map that prevented premades-and we got a whole queue.
and nobody uses it.
It does, in fact, everything that was being asked for....and nobody uses it.
Here's my estimated curve for rewards, and yeah, it's not nice.
Base curve:
15/14: 150% listed reward (Listed Reward should be roughly equal to an Elite STF.)
15/10-15/8: Listed reward. (this is actually an average outcome when both sides are fighting.)
15/7-15/6: 75% listed reward
15/5-15/4: 50% Listed Reward
15/3: 25%
15/2 to 15/1: 25%
15/0: 5% of listed reward (roughly equal to what you get from a failed Cure Normal.)
Win/loss:
winning team picks up 5% of the post-curve reward in addition.
Cryptic will do what they're going to do, and players will ALWAYS look for ways to game the system.
Seriously? That curve is so atrociously backwards the queues would have nothing but reward boosters running 15/14's in them*. Forget party crashers, only intentional trolls would fight for real and risk ending up with 5%.
* Except if your "listed reward" refers to the ridiculously low 1,440 for 3 runs as it is now, in which case the queues would just stay empty. 150% is nowhere near enough.
we'll never see if your theory or mine is the correct one, Warpangel-it's not what Cryptic would do in any case, but it's not all that likely that people would suddenly get strategic when they can't even grasp the old 10% rule from STF's, or stop dogfighting and run the bomb at the Tzenkethi bases (or cover someone who's doing that) on a regular basis.
see, you run into the classic "Prisoner's Dilemma" with what I laid out- the majority of people, for whatever reason, will take a smaller reward and **** over someone else when the obvious choice is collaboration or cooperation. The old reward system didn't leverage crowd psychology-it simply gave out a purple ribbon for participation and let it go at that, and because it was set up to permit private matches, the obvious us/them was the players vs. Cryptic.
well, Cryptic demonstrated who wins when it comes to that, and now PvP has little to no rewards at all for most of the players in the game (Fed especially).
I'm not saying what you posit is entirely wrong, but rather that it's less likely-at least over the usual term between major updates.
That's pretty much what I meant. Your prisoner's dilemma is backwards. It's not "take a smaller reward and **** over someone else," it's "take a larger reward and **** over someone else." Maximizing personal gain at the expense of others.
Your curve makes losing at 15/14 worth more than winning at 15/13, so 15/14 the only Nash equilibrium. Only an idiot would go for the 15th kill before the other side reached 14, team cooperation or no, because it would always result in less reward for himself. The only real contest would be for the last point (giving the 5% win bonus) once both teams are at 14/14.
For there to be a real prisoner's dilemma, winning by any score would always have to give more reward than losing at any score.
And even then, if there is extra reward for a "close match" it's always an advantage for the winning team to let the other side take as many points as they can without risking losing.
Nothing is set in stone, Spartan has made that clear, just continue to give feed back, and wait to see the finished product, it's still early days yet, I suspect we won't see the final product till it goes live on holodeck during the next expansion.
One would hope. I've posted feedback on a few things, over the years, and I'll say it first that some of them aren't pretty, but the vast majority of them are actual bugs that have yet to be addressed. This revamp would be a perfect time for both bug fixing, as well as consistency.
What are your thoughts and concerns with respect to these changes?
I've done some recent testing of builds on tribble for pve (yes not pvp, remember this) and I find that teams that stack dmg resistance debuffs, beneficial weapon procs, aoe weapon procs (from reputation), being a tactical (still, I'm sorry for those that aren't tactical and playing pve), stacking exotic dmg, and using science ships (annorax, temporal, vesta variants (t5/t6), edoulg, etc ...) are very effective. I think that everything is on a more level playing field though where being a science or engineering character is good enough, but could always be better.
As a footnote I'd like to add that old set-ups aren't useless, but should probably be transferred to more of a support role.
What are your thoughts and concerns with respect to these changes?
I've done some recent testing of builds on tribble for pve (yes not pvp, remember this) and I find that teams that stack dmg resistance debuffs, beneficial weapon procs, aoe weapon procs (from reputation), being a tactical (still, I'm sorry for those that aren't tactical and playing pve), stacking exotic dmg, and using science ships (annorax, temporal, vesta variants (t5/t6), edoulg, etc ...) are very effective. I think that everything is on a more level playing field though where being a science or engineering character is good enough, but could always be better.
As a footnote I'd like to add that old set-ups aren't useless, but should probably be transferred to more of a support role.
What you describe ... the "I'm sorry for those that aren't tactical" and the "use debuffs, AoE, and science ships for exotic damage" ... pretty much describes the state of the game right now.
Which means things really haven't been put on a "level playing field."
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My character Tsin'xing
The immunity of the pilot maneuvers was the selling point of the ship series so its akin to removing the lance from the gal x with no reimbursement (but I do understand why the imunity had to go, it was far too easy to shug off obscene amounts of firepower)
Or, raise the fuel tank refill rate - I'd gladly lose all immunity from the moves if I could use them more actively in combat (I am a speed demon who thinks 100 impulse is granny pace so my opinion might not mesh with others, mind)
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Though, "winning pays more than losing" + "pugs only" = "team with a full hardcore premade or lose every time" so casuals who actually wanted to PvP for real probably wouldn't like it much.
Bonuses for kills (also deaths) already exist, though only for KDF.
Since arranging a 15-14 in a pug full of party crashers would probably be too unreliable to be worth trying, reward-minded people would of course calculate whether the likely result of losing the match to some premade gankers 15-0 is competitive with other activities or not to play at all. Just like we do now.
Can't have it both ways.
FBP being scaled back
SSV being nerfed
GW being nerfed
Aux power being reworked.
Not looking to good
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Well you forgot:
DRB being nerfed
TBR being nerfed
BUffs!
Tykens got a damage and Drain buff that Id LOVE to see go live..
Photonic Shock-wave got a buff
Also my Dyson proton consoles are now almost 2x the damage.
FBP wasn't just scaled back. It essentially is unattached (to Crit H and Crit D Exotic or Damage buff) and capped (at 50%, 75%, or 100%).Its one of the few science abilities that don't do some form of secondary radiation damage from the secondary deflectors in addition to its other downsides..
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
those consoles would need to do 5-7x the damage they do now to actually be considered decent, especially to make up for the lesser stats on them
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Not at all true since new builds will be posted on Reddit.
Absolutely. But now it might be the chance to figure out the new build that everyone else is copying. Or not.
The filthy casuals will just wait it out.
Soph will get an ego stroke for a little while, but in the end, the paradigm he thinks is going to change won't even hit a speedbump, when it comes to cookie cutter builds.
The cookies will just have different shapes in a month or two.
Not anymore. The damage numbers on GW and SSV were toned down again and appear to be lower on Tribble than currently on Holodeck, cause they displayed too high numbers (apparently due to a bug) before.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Personal experience. My own GW/SSV numbers on Tribble are not as awful as I was afraid of, but they are still significantly lower than on Holodeck.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
he heard it the same place everyone else heard it - the march 23rd tribble patch notes
of course, cryptic being cryptic, they didn't give specific figures for just HOW MUCH they were toned down
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
* Except if your "listed reward" refers to the ridiculously low 1,440 for 3 runs as it is now, in which case the queues would just stay empty. 150% is nowhere near enough.
So basically unless running a drain build the main offensive space Sci powers being Gravity Well/Subspace Vortex/Feedback Pulse and Tractor Beam Repulsors (Using the doff to make them pull instead of push) are getting crippled ?
There's a nice new 3 Pack KDF Science ship bundle in the C-Store, with these nerfs I think I won't be adding them to my Fleet.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
So..I would like to see those console have the same stats as other sci consoles in their field...
As for the Exotic Proton Damage..My Mk14 epics 'might' hit for 10k after resistances are applied. Need to test it..
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Your curve makes losing at 15/14 worth more than winning at 15/13, so 15/14 the only Nash equilibrium. Only an idiot would go for the 15th kill before the other side reached 14, team cooperation or no, because it would always result in less reward for himself. The only real contest would be for the last point (giving the 5% win bonus) once both teams are at 14/14.
For there to be a real prisoner's dilemma, winning by any score would always have to give more reward than losing at any score.
And even then, if there is extra reward for a "close match" it's always an advantage for the winning team to let the other side take as many points as they can without risking losing.
Me neither for sure, nor for my feds, nor for my roms.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
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"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
As a footnote I'd like to add that old set-ups aren't useless, but should probably be transferred to more of a support role.
What you describe ... the "I'm sorry for those that aren't tactical" and the "use debuffs, AoE, and science ships for exotic damage" ... pretty much describes the state of the game right now.
Which means things really haven't been put on a "level playing field."
This just changes the meta.