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[PC] Details on Space Balance Changes

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    wanna see a patch note, Sparty, gimme

    The patch notes will come when it arrives on Tribble, until then, no patch notes.

    IMHO this blog should have been released on Tribble patch day to avoid all the confusion.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    ... you must not have ever played any other MMO ... aoe abilities are not inherently tank abilities, infact dps roles typically have better aoe capabilities than tanks. The problem with FaW was that it was better than all alternatives in all situations, including single target.
    I disagree on your first two points. Your first assertion is wrong since basically my lifetime parallels the evolution of MMOs. You couldn't know that of course. Your second point is wrong simply because by definition attacking everything on the FoB means everything on the FoB realizes you are the key threat. We have boats and planes that light up the sky IRL and they are always top priority targets simply because they overwhelm everything and distract from focused attack.

    I have no argument with your third point. Except that it should zero out all threat reducers and make the source the PT. Or are you arguing that attacking everything on the battlefield basically is nothing more than a lightshow with no real impact. Then you make sense. Not that I want that outcome, but your words line up to something understandable.

    ... comparing an MMO to real life is just silly ...

    Let's use WoW as an example. Let's say a group comes up on a big group of mobs, the tank runs in and uses a relatively weak, but high aggro, aoe ability to get all the mobs attacking him while the rest of the group burns the mob down with high powered aoe abilities that, by design, do not cause as much threat as the tank's weaker aoe and therfore do not pull aggro. While this obviously would make very little sense in the real world, that is how these kinds of video games work. As I said, in an MMO AoE is not inherently a tank ability.

    What you describe is basically a taunt ability then, we don't have those in STO. Everything that does increase aggro in this game still requires you to cause damage and dedicated dps builds outperform those a lot of the times. Aside from the fact that it is not necessary to tank, just vaporize everything, burning debris doesn't shoot back after all.
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    jslyn wrote: »
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    He keeps having to post about it because people keep complaining based on their inadequate understanding of the game's mechanics. Don't blame the developer for having to explain the same thing over and over again.

    Oh, I wasn't blaming him. On the contrary, I feel for the guy. It's like no matter how many time he explains the the Torpedo-Shield thing, people refuse to listen. If I were Spartan, I'd be a lot less polite about it by now. I applaud his patience.

    Maybe we should have sticky threads with those explanatory posts on game mechanics ? Then we could point people there and Spartan would not wastetime reposting it a dozen times per week ? Just an idea. :)
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    qjunior wrote: »
    ... you must not have ever played any other MMO ... aoe abilities are not inherently tank abilities, infact dps roles typically have better aoe capabilities than tanks. The problem with FaW was that it was better than all alternatives in all situations, including single target.
    I disagree on your first two points. Your first assertion is wrong since basically my lifetime parallels the evolution of MMOs. You couldn't know that of course. Your second point is wrong simply because by definition attacking everything on the FoB means everything on the FoB realizes you are the key threat. We have boats and planes that light up the sky IRL and they are always top priority targets simply because they overwhelm everything and distract from focused attack.

    I have no argument with your third point. Except that it should zero out all threat reducers and make the source the PT. Or are you arguing that attacking everything on the battlefield basically is nothing more than a lightshow with no real impact. Then you make sense. Not that I want that outcome, but your words line up to something understandable.

    ... comparing an MMO to real life is just silly ...

    Let's use WoW as an example. Let's say a group comes up on a big group of mobs, the tank runs in and uses a relatively weak, but high aggro, aoe ability to get all the mobs attacking him while the rest of the group burns the mob down with high powered aoe abilities that, by design, do not cause as much threat as the tank's weaker aoe and therfore do not pull aggro. While this obviously would make very little sense in the real world, that is how these kinds of video games work. As I said, in an MMO AoE is not inherently a tank ability.

    What you describe is basically a taunt ability then, we don't have those in STO. Everything that does increase aggro in this game still requires you to cause damage and dedicated dps builds outperform those a lot of the times. Aside from the fact that it is not necessary to tank, just vaporize everything, burning debris doesn't shoot back after all.

    It's different from a taunt because it does deal damage, but most MMOs have tank aoe abilities tuned for lower damage with higher threat. Taunt forces the mob to attack for a set time, while threat keeps them attacking once the taunt wears off.

    You're right that sto doesn't require tanking, which is why threatening stance dosn't reduce damage output, if it did no one would use it because tanking (sadly imho) is not required.
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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    salvation4 wrote: »
    Miracle Worker’s healing is significantly increased, and now also gives a significant amount of Secondary Shielding for a short duration

    What do you mean by secondary shielding???

    think temporary hull, but for shields​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,196 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    Edit: Nevermind, it was a dumb question.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    avoozuul wrote: »
    Edit: Nevermind, it was a dumb question.

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    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,412 Arc User
    Will space cloaks share the same fate as ground cloaks?

    Will attack pattern alpha and other tactical captain abilities continue to benefit exotic damage?
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  • nimbullnimbull Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    salvation4 wrote: »
    Miracle Worker’s healing is significantly increased, and now also gives a significant amount of Secondary Shielding for a short duration

    What do you mean by secondary shielding???

    I imagine it'll function pretty much like the Scimitar's secondary shields.

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Advanced_Scimitar_Systems#Console_-_Universal_-_Secondary_Shields
    Green people don't have to be.... little.
  • crypticspartan#0627 crypticspartan Member Posts: 847 Cryptic Developer
    qjunior wrote: »
    jslyn wrote: »
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    He keeps having to post about it because people keep complaining based on their inadequate understanding of the game's mechanics. Don't blame the developer for having to explain the same thing over and over again.

    Oh, I wasn't blaming him. On the contrary, I feel for the guy. It's like no matter how many time he explains the the Torpedo-Shield thing, people refuse to listen. If I were Spartan, I'd be a lot less polite about it by now. I applaud his patience.

    Maybe we should have sticky threads with those explanatory posts on game mechanics ? Then we could point people there and Spartan would not wastetime reposting it a dozen times per week ? Just an idea. :)

    This kind of question is exactly why I am going to be holding a Mechanics AMA here on the forums and on the stobuilds reddit in the near future.
  • totenmettotenmet Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    The goals boil down to these:

    * Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”

    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, mandatory waiting spoils the fun, games are about having fun not about waiting.

    * Choices should be meaningful – Anywhere the game gives you a choice, there should be no choice that you always take nor one you never take.

    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?
  • primar13primar13 Member Posts: 1,896 Bug Hunter
    totenmet wrote: »
    The goals boil down to these:

    * Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”

    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, mandatory waiting spoils the fun, games are about having fun not about waiting.

    * Choices should be meaningful – Anywhere the game gives you a choice, there should be no choice that you always take nor one you never take.

    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    That Cooldown should be removed from Story Missions as well.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    totenmet wrote: »
    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    Last I knew, only the specific mission/queue you just played is the only one placed into cooldown.

    You can play ISA, CCA, Tholian Alert, and, if your 1/2 hour from ISA is just about up, you can play it again.

    The only thing this prevents is running the same map, over and over, repetitively, until boredom/grind/abuse of rewards on that map set in...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • sarah2774sarah2774 Member Posts: 238 Arc User

    In my opinion TACS should be the DPS kings focussed on power and damage.

    Playing Engineers or Science should be rewarding in a completely different way. For example rewards for healing (sci). Rewards for defence buffing (eng). And much more one can think of.

    E.g 3 performance (DPS/HEAL/DEF buff) stats and rewards depending on the score.

    So a Typical TAC could do for example 100K DPS 30KHeals 40K DEF Buff (just fictive numbers)
    A SCI would do 100K heals but less DPS etc. and ENG would have 100K defence buff etc.

    Why should every class do similar DPS? Why having classes then? If all only want to do dps, only one class would be needed.
    I hope it is a bit understandable what I wrote (I am not that good in english).

    I tried to play SCI and ENG that way but the game rewards by DPS not by more heals or defence, so will lose out on loot and other rewards. This force other classes to go the DPS path.
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  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    qjunior wrote: »
    jslyn wrote: »
    kyle223cat wrote: »
    He keeps having to post about it because people keep complaining based on their inadequate understanding of the game's mechanics. Don't blame the developer for having to explain the same thing over and over again.

    Oh, I wasn't blaming him. On the contrary, I feel for the guy. It's like no matter how many time he explains the the Torpedo-Shield thing, people refuse to listen. If I were Spartan, I'd be a lot less polite about it by now. I applaud his patience.

    Maybe we should have sticky threads with those explanatory posts on game mechanics ? Then we could point people there and Spartan would not wastetime reposting it a dozen times per week ? Just an idea. :)

    This kind of question is exactly why I am going to be holding a Mechanics AMA here on the forums and on the stobuilds reddit in the near future.

    Sounds great. I'll think of some questions that could use answering for that. :)
  • rimmarierimmarie Member Posts: 418 Arc User
    qjunior wrote: »
    What you describe is basically a taunt ability then, we don't have those in STO. Everything that does increase aggro in this game still requires you to cause damage and dedicated dps builds outperform those a lot of the times. Aside from the fact that it is not necessary to tank, just vaporize everything, burning debris doesn't shoot back after all.

    There is a 'taunt' ability in STO
    Diversionary Tactics from the Strategist tree
    I use it quite often in The Tzenkethi Front to allow my Escort buddies to freely bomb the bases or shoot the front of the Battleships

  • totenmettotenmet Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    dareau wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    Last I knew, only the specific mission/queue you just played is the only one placed into cooldown.

    You can play ISA, CCA, Tholian Alert, and, if your 1/2 hour from ISA is just about up, you can play it again.

    The only thing this prevents is running the same map, over and over, repetitively, until boredom/grind/abuse of rewards on that map set in...

    Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”,
    the Devs write as one of th reasons for changing things.

    If I (or some one else) wants to play ISA all the time for example to do DPS record runs and a PVE cooldown timer prevents me to do that, that makes me feel like my fun is "wrong".

    PS: I know I can play ISA over and over again (switching toons), so having a timer and a cooldown on a PVE (or a mission) to prevent playing it on the SAME toon, just frustrates me. Basicaly my fun IS considered wrong due to this.
  • totenmettotenmet Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    sarah2774 wrote: »

    In my opinion TACS should be the DPS kings focussed on power and damage.

    Playing Engineers or Science should be rewarding in a completely different way. For example rewards for healing (sci). Rewards for defence buffing (eng). And much more one can think of.

    E.g 3 performance (DPS/HEAL/DEF buff) stats and rewards depending on the score.

    So a Typical TAC could do for example 100K DPS 30KHeals 40K DEF Buff (just fictive numbers)
    A SCI would do 100K heals but less DPS etc. and ENG would have 100K defence buff etc.

    Why should every class do similar DPS? Why having classes then? If all only want to do dps, only one class would be needed.
    I hope it is a bit understandable what I wrote (I am not that good in english).

    I tried to play SCI and ENG that way but the game rewards by DPS not by more heals or defence, so will lose out on loot and other rewards. This force other classes to go the DPS path.

    Exactly my point. The rewards are only DPS focussed so people are going for DPS. So instead of having SCI and ENGS become TACS DPS wise, DPS just with a different colour, they should make things like healing, buffing, defence, more rewarding. Now its only about look how much dps I can do. There is hardly any visability how much you supported others with heals, defence and buffs. Would be much more rewarding if at the end of a PVE everyone sees some stats on how well some one contributed.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    For the most part it sounds like a Buff for my Fleet Jupiter Carrier.

    It's subsystem targeting gets a boost and so does it's pets. All it needs are an improvement to Intel abilities.

    Callistos are already the tankiest pets in game with a boost to their survivablity I could see that tanking pretty well.

    The damage boost will be nice too.

    Given Callostos already get scratch the paint, I look forward to seeing what they get to replace now that it's innate to all carrier pets. Perhaps Subsystem Overdrive or a different Pilot power.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    Given that pets get a damage and health boost, I think none damage pets should get a special boost of their own.
  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    totenmet wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    Last I knew, only the specific mission/queue you just played is the only one placed into cooldown.

    You can play ISA, CCA, Tholian Alert, and, if your 1/2 hour from ISA is just about up, you can play it again.

    The only thing this prevents is running the same map, over and over, repetitively, until boredom/grind/abuse of rewards on that map set in...

    Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”,
    the Devs write as one of th reasons for changing things.

    If I (or some one else) wants to play ISA all the time for example to do DPS record runs and a PVE cooldown timer prevents me to do that, that makes me feel like my fun is "wrong".

    PS: I know I can play ISA over and over again (switching toons), so having a timer and a cooldown on a PVE (or a mission) to prevent playing it on the SAME toon, just frustrates me. Basicaly my fun IS considered wrong due to this.

    This has nothing to do with queue cooldowns, and the part in the blog about fun is in regards to skill choices. Context is key.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    qjunior wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    Last I knew, only the specific mission/queue you just played is the only one placed into cooldown.

    You can play ISA, CCA, Tholian Alert, and, if your 1/2 hour from ISA is just about up, you can play it again.

    The only thing this prevents is running the same map, over and over, repetitively, until boredom/grind/abuse of rewards on that map set in...

    Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”,
    the Devs write as one of th reasons for changing things.

    If I (or some one else) wants to play ISA all the time for example to do DPS record runs and a PVE cooldown timer prevents me to do that, that makes me feel like my fun is "wrong".

    PS: I know I can play ISA over and over again (switching toons), so having a timer and a cooldown on a PVE (or a mission) to prevent playing it on the SAME toon, just frustrates me. Basicaly my fun IS considered wrong due to this.

    This has nothing to do with queue cooldowns, and the part in the blog about fun is in regards to skill choices. Context is key.
    But the devs view on meaningful choices is flawed and often does the opposite causing frustration and less fun. I still hate some elements of the what was the new skill revamp which did the opposite to what the devs intended and all it did for me was achieve frustration not meaningful choices.

    Not all choices should even be meaningful, I want to build and use playstyles around themes. But because of the stupid meaningful choice concept I have to take skills and stuff that is useless and no fun and at the same thing skip fun stuff that would fit into the playstyle build theme.

    “Choices should be meaningful – Anywhere the game gives you a choice, there should be no choice that you always take nor one you never take.“
    This is something I strongly disagree with and it makes the game worse by going down this path. It was this type of thinking that caused all the frustration in the skill revamp. Sometimes 1 choice should be stronger or always better then another choice. Not every choice but some choices.

    EDIT: The changes to Targetable torpedoes are welcome but its rather useless until the bugs are fixed. I lost count how many times Targetable torpedoes hit for zero damage or the speed and defence buffs fail to apply to the Targetable torpedoes . Sometimes you can shoot 3 Targetable torpedoes and have 1 overtake the other as only 1 gets the speed buffs among all the other bugs.

    EDIT2: I find sometimes game devs and players forgot balancing doesn’t mean everything has to be equal. In fact making everything equal makes for a bad game. Making everything equal and just as effective as each other also means there is no real choice as you may as well take anything.

    EDIT3: I am not sure those changes to Carrier pets will fix the core problems. First boosting the damage does very little when the target dies before the pets get into range. 90% of the time my pets did zero damage as the target died while the pet was travelling into range. The 2nd problem is my pets would fade away as I fly around the map from NPC group to NPC group as the pets would drift too far away from me. I lose more pets from range problems then from enemy fire. By the time I get to the 2nd or 3rd group of NPC’s more often then not the pets have faded away or the NPC’s are dead before the pets catch up to get into fire range.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,983 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    qjunior wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    dareau wrote: »
    totenmet wrote: »
    Remove the 30 minutes (and longer) cooldowns for replaying PVE's, I should be able to play a certain PVE when I choose to, without having to wait for 30 minutes or more. Don't limit me in choosing when to play what.

    Or am I wrong?

    Last I knew, only the specific mission/queue you just played is the only one placed into cooldown.

    You can play ISA, CCA, Tholian Alert, and, if your 1/2 hour from ISA is just about up, you can play it again.

    The only thing this prevents is running the same map, over and over, repetitively, until boredom/grind/abuse of rewards on that map set in...

    Increase the fun – Games are about having fun, and players should not be made to feel that their fun is “wrong.”,
    the Devs write as one of th reasons for changing things.

    If I (or some one else) wants to play ISA all the time for example to do DPS record runs and a PVE cooldown timer prevents me to do that, that makes me feel like my fun is "wrong".

    PS: I know I can play ISA over and over again (switching toons), so having a timer and a cooldown on a PVE (or a mission) to prevent playing it on the SAME toon, just frustrates me. Basicaly my fun IS considered wrong due to this.

    This has nothing to do with queue cooldowns, and the part in the blog about fun is in regards to skill choices. Context is key.

    My Skill choices are to use BFAW in as many spots as possible and enjoy how my ship reacts with this yet the game considers this not fun now.

    Now that everythings screwed up I'm going to need to play the same PVE multiple times to reset all of my Powers I can't do this with cooldowns.

    So in context complaint.
  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,784 Arc User
    As long as they are adding in a new Science Captain Ability, I would like to re-suggest a customizable ability for everyone. "Attack Pattern [Captain] #" Which starts at Rank 1 and rises to rank 3 as you Level your character. This way people would get an ability that is all their own.

    "Attack Pattern [Captain] 1" gives you a choice between two effects: like a Mobility Buff for you or a Mobility Debuff for enemies targeting you.

    The second pip gives you "Attack Pattern [Captain] 2" which upgrades APC1 by allowing a choice to add an additional effect from another set of two, like some Incoming Damage Absorption or some Outgoing Weapon Penetration.

    The third pip would follow the same progression in to "Attack Pattern [Captain] 3". Maybe for this one it has four choices to choose one from: a Critical Hit Buff, or a Critical Damage Buff, or a Secondary Shield, or some Temporary Hull.


  • qjuniorqjunior Member Posts: 2,023 Arc User
    The Tribble patch notes are up btw.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • ak255ak255 Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    ak255 wrote: »
    Reflected damage can no longer critically hit or be buffed by damage increases.

    Well so much for the Krenim Science Vessel's Starship Trait, "Improved Feedback Pulse". Thanks for making an Anniversary ship completely useless. Can I have a refund on those 1000 vouchers I wasted my time getting? No? Well then...

    Improved Feedback Pulse still modifies Feedback Pulse's Reflection amount. The Critical Hit chance and severity Improved Feedback Pulse applies still benefits everything else on your ship.

    Not according the patch notes for Tribble that were posted today:

    Feedback Pulse:
    • The damage reflection can no longer critically hit
    • The percentage of reflected no longer scales with damage bonuses
    • The percentage reflected is now capped at 50%, 75%, or 100% based on rank
    • The default reflection amount is now significantly lower at each rank

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    Trait account unlock.. OMG my klingons and KDF-Roms are going to get an amazing boost from this.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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