The second question is: is it really that important to have different factions of comparable size?
By the standard of economic viability, I'd say STO proves it's not neccessary. I'd even say that it could be a hindrance, trying to split your development efforts across the player population is really only something if you're big.
t might be seen as desirable by many, but a lot of things that seem desirable are not neccessarily feasible.
And for yet another POV: why do factions NEED to be the same size at all? Sure I see more Starfleet people in shared zones, but I always see non-Starfleet too.
this is one of the core failures of Patrick's thinking IMO, he thinks that there is actually a need to have "equality". It'd be nice, but does it actually help much? IMO... no.
I'd see it as more an instance of trying to 'force equality' onto a situation which (according to player analytics) clearly does not want to be 'equal'... This is why I think that more homogenization, would be a better route to go down, because it would allow Fed-Players who might want to 'dip their toe' to do so, rather than having to 'go Full Empire' (Because you never want to 'go Full Empire' ) and Cryptic would then have more money to mean more resources which they could then afford to devote to the Klingon faction... Rather than simply thinking "We only have X to spend, we'll spend it on the majority..." it would then be "We have enough to spend X on the majority, but can now afford to spend Z on the rest..." Which would mean that everyone gets an appropriately-allocated slice of the pie (and which could even lead to more genuine interest in the Klingon faction...
There is also the possibility of since there is only 68% Federation, 20% Klingon, and 12% Romulan, then Cryptic will spend 68% of their budget on the Federation, 20% on Klingons, and 12% on Romulans. Of course, that 20% and 12% seems to amount to adding Klingon and Romulan versions of Federation C-Store ships.
The second question is: is it really that important to have different factions of comparable size?
By the standard of economic viability, I'd say STO proves it's not neccessary. I'd even say that it could be a hindrance, trying to split your development efforts across the player population is really only something if you're big.
t might be seen as desirable by many, but a lot of things that seem desirable are not neccessarily feasible.
And for yet another POV: why do factions NEED to be the same size at all? Sure I see more Starfleet people in shared zones, but I always see non-Starfleet too.
this is one of the core failures of Patrick's thinking IMO, he thinks that there is actually a need to have "equality". It'd be nice, but does it actually help much? IMO... no.
I'd see it as more an instance of trying to 'force equality' onto a situation which (according to player analytics) clearly does not want to be 'equal'... This is why I think that more homogenization, would be a better route to go down, because it would allow Fed-Players who might want to 'dip their toe' to do so, rather than having to 'go Full Empire' (Because you never want to 'go Full Empire' ) and Cryptic would then have more money to mean more resources which they could then afford to devote to the Klingon faction... Rather than simply thinking "We only have X to spend, we'll spend it on the majority..." it would then be "We have enough to spend X on the majority, but can now afford to spend Z on the rest..." Which would mean that everyone gets an appropriately-allocated slice of the pie (and which could even lead to more genuine interest in the Klingon faction...
There is also the possibility of since there is only 68% Federation, 20% Klingon, and 12% Romulan, then Cryptic will spend 68% of their budget on the Federation, 20% on Klingons, and 12% on Romulans. Of course, that 20% and 12% seems to amount to adding Klingon and Romulan versions of Federation C-Store ships.
True... Personally, I would have thought it would be better for them to develop faction-unique ships, but, I guess that's their call to make
Enh.. the Kolasi is adequately "faction unique" for my tastes. To be honest I'm quite happy with the way the cross faction packs work. The ships aren't actually "the same" in how they fly, but similar.
People complain about anti-KDF bias in the game, where KDF faction got both scarcely-clad Orion girls and big bad-a$$ Gorn dudes without any grounds in Trek canon whatsoever.
Yeah, right - sounds legit.
*get a orion on his fed the a gorn on his tos fed then looks over the much larger ship selection* what were you saying again?
disagreeing about what, if anything should be done about the current imbalance is fine but pretending it doesn't exist is not.
I normally avoid these kinds of threads, but I'd like to ask what the KDF is supposed to call a good science ship? I kind of force my Fleet K'tinga to stand in for one. I consider the ship to be very versatile. It is even more versatile if you managed to get a lot of Zen store ships you can borrow universals from.
My main Fed could get the Recon Sci, and the Fleet version, either of which I recommend highly as you near the top levels. It is in my opinion a truly combat worthy sci ship. The K'tingas of any stripe just aren't there. Combat worthy yes. Not a science ship.
I am giving KDF allied race ships a chance to fill in, but I am still trying to make up my mind. Either way, the ship selection is pretty weak. It's almost worse though if you are a Romulan KDF because KDF faction allegiance does not always help you qualify for ship access. It is slightly better for UFP Romulans because even if they don't get to use all Federation ships, they still have more choices than the KDF Roms.
Since thelordofshades brings up Orion 'girls' and Gorn 'dudes' in an attempt to claim that makes it all better some how, let me point out that the Fed side is more than capable of having a girl character who is every bit as hot as an Orion, and who can kick every bit as much butt as a Gorn, and they have more racial templates to build from. I'd also point out that the Gorn, and the Orions were both at least nominally hostile to the Federation in canon, so if there was a logical, canon side for them to be on, it would be the KDF.
But I want to clarify that I don't believe there is a bias. I think it is indifference and apathy that is primarily at work here. That is why the C-store has more ships, costumes, and options in general for the UFP. Nobody is likely saying "To heck with those Klingons! They don't need cool stuff! Lets give it all to the Federation!"
Instead it is more like "Klingons? We have Klingons in the game? Well then we will have to get around to making some content for them someday, won't we? Someday soon! Next episode for sure ..."
At a minimum there should be more overlap between Romulan and KDF options. The Romulans had KDF ships in TOS! Remember the NCC-1701 going to warp NINE! Do you also remember the ship type that was gaining on her after she did?! It was a D-7 Battle cruiser! The Duras had so many dealings with the Romulans it seems like an obvious thing for the KDF to have acquired some Romulan ships prior to the destruction of Hobus, and maybe even dress those ships up a bit to be better tools for KDF captains to go marauding with.
Actually, in all the decades and centuries of warfare, it isn't even a stretch to think that the KDF could have working examples of nearly any ship they engaged since TOS days. Dominion, Romulan, Federation, etc. A way to represent that could be to allow the KDF to use C-Store ships outside their faction as 'prize ships'.
I am all for fairness ... let the UFP have captured ships also
Anyway, at least then the ship disparity would be a lot less, and maybe we would get some decent sci ships out of it.
The problem I see with the Fed-centric bias is, quite simply, a Catch-22:
* Cryptic doesn't make KDF/RRF material a priority because they're a small minority of the player-base
* Players don't choose to play KDF/RRF characters because Cryptic doesn't make faction-specific content a priority
Sic vita! Quid agis?
Except that the consoles have proven that the Fed-centric bias is not a Catch-22. No new faction-specific content means that it doesn't matter which faction you play as. The consoles have none of the problems with the Klingons (originally PvP only faction) and Romulans (didn't exist for the first couple of years) that supposedly produced the Fed-centric bias on the PC.
The Fed-centric bias is due to the hundreds of Star Trek episodes that focused purely on a Starfleet crew. (snip)
In short, the franchise has a Fed-centric bias which programs the majority of fans to lead with visions of how cool their Federation captain will be. I don't think that is actually in dispute.(snip)
Anyway, Live Long and Qapla!
It's really a signficant problem from a game-design end. HOW do they make the faction more interesting/attractive without:
1. blowing the budget.
2. losing their existing base. (snip)
3. That first "Winback weekend" might have left psychological scars in it's wake, and a bit of a bunker mentality at the studio.
I hope nobody minds if I trimmed the above down a bit?
I think there is a catch 22 effect in that is always word of mouth marketing, and so the difference in content will at least occasionally get mentioned to a new customer. That doesn't mean that most of the problem isn't directly related to the lack of canon Klingon lead roles, and it seems valid to consider that Cryptic has data to support that.
I still think it is at least a viable option to make more c-store content cross factional.
Also, really, why can't the KDF capture and use Mirror Fed ships if the Feds can? That is more of what I am trying to get at.
Anyway, good chance this thread will go south soon. I personally want to thank people for caring enough to look. KDF is what my main character was right off the bat, and I do not regret that. I only sometimes wish my main had more content that fit the faction. More of a wish, than it is a complaint.
Qapla!
I don't mind, you kept the key problems...admittedly without much explanation. I don't think cross-factioning MORE stuff is the answer, given the direction Cryptic's taken in the past via Lockbox items (particularly consoles, and later Traits). They've actually been homogenizing their asses off for four years...and I don't see KDF numbers increasing. See lots of feds running gear that was initially only released KDF side, but the opposite has not been exactly a shining example of how reducing or removing unique traits from factions can grow those minority factions.
Quite the opposite, actually, so history in the game and in this community doesn't support your thesis, rather, it supports the opposing view. HOw many Fed captains out there are insistent, for example, that Plas Leech is a key element of their build? I know Bort let it slip that it's a critical element of his calculations....and he's a dev.
The more pertinent question, is whether we'll even HAVE factions in the future-because the development trend for the last few years has not been in support of that-yet factions remain.
Instead of being developed, they're treated as irrelevant. It IS a catch-22, and that has also become a problem-the self-reinforcing statistical trend made manifest. While I protested this occasionally (and even got quite salty with the wording at times) simple fact, now, is after cost-analysis, Cryptic really can't afford to deliver a multi-faction game where the focus is not exclusively on a Federation/Starfleet centric storyline. Even their token stories like House of Pegh are written from a Federation/Starfleet perspective, and the tutorial you spend a lot of time being Frank Drake's fetchboy.
this is largely because they truly don't have, and likely can't afford, enough staff to handle a two-faction situation.
I have to admit, I think the ultimate outcome for the Klingon faction will be, to paraphrase James. T Kirk, to let it[them] die...
To accuse the game of Fed-centric bias is unfair, because apparently the analytics for both consoles and PC, support the fact that more people want to play as Feds, than as Klinks... Maybe that is due to the focus of the past series', maybe it's not, but ultimately, it's an example of a majority of the people (aka players) 'casting a vote' of sorts, and so an example of democracy(ish) at work, where support and resources are going towards the largest player base. It stands to reason that Cryptic aren't going to waste resources developing content, for a faction which the majority of their players have only a passing (if that) interest in engaging with...
I have a Klingon toon (because I wanted to bring Q'sha to life) but frankly, what I've seen of the Klingon faction, doesn't really hold my interest (although the story is quite engaging) and the ship options, frankly, don't interest me to acquire. I don't like the over-saturation of Gorn, and for the reasons patrickngo has previously discussed on the inviability of keeping and maintaining slaves, it shows the Klingon Empire as being on the brink of being brought down. Not by defeat at the hands of an external foe, but subsumed from within, by growing population of the underling races, as was massively contributory to the downfall of the Roman Empire (and in Andromeda, the downfall of the Commonwealth, due to the Nietzschean uprising) InVerse, all that needs to happen, is enough Orion/Gorn captains to realize "We have positions of power on a lot of their ships..." and the Klingons (and their Empire) are(is) toast...
Personally speaking, I think one answer may be to make more Klingon ships available to Federation characters (as suggested, as Prize Ships) Kirk flew one, so why can't everyone else? The first time I played Agents of Yesterday, after confronting the Gorn ship in orbit, and tussling with the Romulans (who had that D-7 type warbird) one of the dropped items, was plasma torpedoes... As I've played more extensively, I've learned that Plasma torpedoes really aren't 'All That', and there are better options available (Ael's Mogai, for example, is packing dual quantum torpedoes, with phaser dual heavy cannons fore, with quantum mine launcher and phaser beam array aft) but at the time, I was super-jazzed about the idea of my Federation ship, firing salvaged Romulan plasma torpedos... I'm not saying that I want to put a Starfleet officer in charge of a Bird of Prey, but someone else might want to, and if they then had to pay for that non-faction ship (or maybe a better non-faction ship) that's going to mean $$s in Cryptic's pocket... I never thought I'd be someone who 'paid for pixels', but I paid for Cara to have the Armitage, the Rademaker and Valiant class ships... I can easily accept that someone might not necessarily want to play the Klingon faction, but might want to roll a Klingon-in-Starfleet toon or fly a Klingon ship... Further homogenization of the game would allow that (while maintaining the faction option, for those who actually want to play a different storyline...) and IMHO, that would probably bring in more money, than a standalone faction can, because it is i) aiming to the majority of the playerbase, not the minority, and ii) increasing their options for customization, and that is where I believe this game's true strength, in terms of player retention and sustainability, lies.
If I wasn't for Ael, I would have no real interest in playing the Romulan arc. I highly doubt I will roll another Romulan character to do it all over again, simply because the lack of ship options, mean there'll be no difference, so to me, no point... I'm tempted to roll some more KDF toons, because I have some character ideas I want to try, but as with the Romulan arc, I've no interest in actually replaying the Klingon arc with different ships, because IMHO, there aren't enough to choose from... Of the various Fed toons I've created; Cara, Galatea, T'Karra, Illya and Mas, they have all had different low-tier ships, in various forms of customization. Regardless of my interest admittedly being to Federation, rather than KDF or RR, the game itself best facilitates the customization options, which is what makes the game interesting to me, via the Fed faction...
The more Cryptic homogenizes the game, the more opportunities players will have to try new options, without being railroaded into a stagnating and under-supplied faction... So yeah, perhaps the best thing, would simply be to 'let it[them] die...
I know it is long, but I elected to leave the prior quotes at full length ...
How about this? Prize ship marks/tokens awarded to players for defeating ships in combat!!!
Get one or more prize ship marks/tokens for your target ships, and depending on rarity they can be turned in for the right to fly a re-flagged prize ship of that type! The player still has to go get the ship ... so no freebies. Just the right to fly it, earned by combat. If you already paid the C-Store for an account ship, you don't have to buy it again, just claim it on this toon once the right is earned. Or buy them on the exchange, whatever works.
You might even revitalize PVP with such an idea. Make PVP matches worth more in prize marks/tokens. You could have the skirmish zones like Ker'rat become farming locations for ships you don't have. Admittedly you will have a few dps gods running rough over the little ships, but if you gang up on some of those you may get tokens for their high Tier ship! (Hey dude, thanks for bringing your Kelvin Heavy Cruiser here. The honor of my House demanded we take one of those!)
I could get a Recon Sci for my Orion, or if I was ridiculously lucky, I could eventually get a Kumari for my Lethean. For me that would make PVP way worthwhile.
The reason I say marks/tokens is that either path would work. Tokens take up space in inventory till used (if the devs magically fall in love with this idea, make them stack, please) like lock boxes. Activating the token adds that ship to your options at the shipyard for ships to buy, and allows you to make a C-store purchase of a ship you can't normally use.
Marks would avoid taking inventory space, but if you track the marks, then you might need to focus on what Teir of ship was defeated. If you have more T2 KDF marks earned you can get a T2 KDF ship easier. Something like that. The main reason would be to avoid having people just save marks up to only get the T6 stuff. More variety is fun. Make Kirk fly a BoP because that IS what he 'defeated'.
Maybe I am crazy, but I am in love with my own idea here. Is anyone else?
The problem with that, as I've seen in BSG Online which uses a similar 'PVP rewards (Merits) to buy ships' system, is that it increases the chances of kill-stealing, higher level players jumping on lower level ones for easy rewards... actually, most of the things that are generally considered a negative for PVP, really.
Personally, I think it might be better if the rewards were earned via playing style; 'Merits' for science ships for using science abilities, Engineering 'merits' for using engineering abilities - since those are where healing abilities lie, it would really give players a reason to help each other out as teams instead of faction-against-faction free-for-alls and it would also make it harder for, as you put it, 'dps gods' to be able to get all the good ships that way.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
People complain about anti-KDF bias in the game, where KDF faction got both scarcely-clad Orion girls and big bad-a$$ Gorn dudes without any grounds in Trek canon whatsoever.
Yeah, right - sounds legit.
*get a orion on his fed the a gorn on his tos fed then looks over the much larger ship selection* what were you saying again?
disagreeing about what, if anything should be done about the current imbalance is fine but pretending it doesn't exist is not.
I normally avoid these kinds of threads, but I'd like to ask what the KDF is supposed to call a good science ship? I kind of force my Fleet K'tinga to stand in for one. I consider the ship to be very versatile. It is even more versatile if you managed to get a lot of Zen store ships you can borrow universals from.
My main Fed could get the Recon Sci, and the Fleet version, either of which I recommend highly as you near the top levels. It is in my opinion a truly combat worthy sci ship. The K'tingas of any stripe just aren't there. Combat worthy yes. Not a science ship.
I am giving KDF allied race ships a chance to fill in, but I am still trying to make up my mind. Either way, the ship selection is pretty weak. It's almost worse though if you are a Romulan KDF because KDF faction allegiance does not always help you qualify for ship access. It is slightly better for UFP Romulans because even if they don't get to use all Federation ships, they still have more choices than the KDF Roms.
Since thelordofshades brings up Orion 'girls' and Gorn 'dudes' in an attempt to claim that makes it all better some how, let me point out that the Fed side is more than capable of having a girl character who is every bit as hot as an Orion, and who can kick every bit as much butt as a Gorn, and they have more racial templates to build from. I'd also point out that the Gorn, and the Orions were both at least nominally hostile to the Federation in canon, so if there was a logical, canon side for them to be on, it would be the KDF.
But I want to clarify that I don't believe there is a bias. I think it is indifference and apathy that is primarily at work here. That is why the C-store has more ships, costumes, and options in general for the UFP. Nobody is likely saying "To heck with those Klingons! They don't need cool stuff! Lets give it all to the Federation!"
Instead it is more like "Klingons? We have Klingons in the game? Well then we will have to get around to making some content for them someday, won't we? Someday soon! Next episode for sure ..."
At a minimum there should be more overlap between Romulan and KDF options. The Romulans had KDF ships in TOS! Remember the NCC-1701 going to warp NINE! Do you also remember the ship type that was gaining on her after she did?! It was a D-7 Battle cruiser! The Duras had so many dealings with the Romulans it seems like an obvious thing for the KDF to have acquired some Romulan ships prior to the destruction of Hobus, and maybe even dress those ships up a bit to be better tools for KDF captains to go marauding with.
Actually, in all the decades and centuries of warfare, it isn't even a stretch to think that the KDF could have working examples of nearly any ship they engaged since TOS days. Dominion, Romulan, Federation, etc. A way to represent that could be to allow the KDF to use C-Store ships outside their faction as 'prize ships'.
I am all for fairness ... let the UFP have captured ships also
Anyway, at least then the ship disparity would be a lot less, and maybe we would get some decent sci ships out of it.
The problem I see with the Fed-centric bias is, quite simply, a Catch-22:
* Cryptic doesn't make KDF/RRF material a priority because they're a small minority of the player-base
* Players don't choose to play KDF/RRF characters because Cryptic doesn't make faction-specific content a priority
Sic vita! Quid agis?
Except that the consoles have proven that the Fed-centric bias is not a Catch-22. No new faction-specific content means that it doesn't matter which faction you play as. The consoles have none of the problems with the Klingons (originally PvP only faction) and Romulans (didn't exist for the first couple of years) that supposedly produced the Fed-centric bias on the PC.
The Fed-centric bias is due to the hundreds of Star Trek episodes that focused purely on a Starfleet crew. (snip)
In short, the franchise has a Fed-centric bias which programs the majority of fans to lead with visions of how cool their Federation captain will be. I don't think that is actually in dispute.(snip)
Anyway, Live Long and Qapla!
It's really a signficant problem from a game-design end. HOW do they make the faction more interesting/attractive without:
1. blowing the budget.
2. losing their existing base. (snip)
3. That first "Winback weekend" might have left psychological scars in it's wake, and a bit of a bunker mentality at the studio.
I hope nobody minds if I trimmed the above down a bit?
I think there is a catch 22 effect in that is always word of mouth marketing, and so the difference in content will at least occasionally get mentioned to a new customer. That doesn't mean that most of the problem isn't directly related to the lack of canon Klingon lead roles, and it seems valid to consider that Cryptic has data to support that.
I still think it is at least a viable option to make more c-store content cross factional.
Also, really, why can't the KDF capture and use Mirror Fed ships if the Feds can? That is more of what I am trying to get at.
Anyway, good chance this thread will go south soon. I personally want to thank people for caring enough to look. KDF is what my main character was right off the bat, and I do not regret that. I only sometimes wish my main had more content that fit the faction. More of a wish, than it is a complaint.
Qapla!
I don't mind, you kept the key problems...admittedly without much explanation. I don't think cross-factioning MORE stuff is the answer, given the direction Cryptic's taken in the past via Lockbox items (particularly consoles, and later Traits). They've actually been homogenizing their asses off for four years...and I don't see KDF numbers increasing. See lots of feds running gear that was initially only released KDF side, but the opposite has not been exactly a shining example of how reducing or removing unique traits from factions can grow those minority factions.
Quite the opposite, actually, so history in the game and in this community doesn't support your thesis, rather, it supports the opposing view. HOw many Fed captains out there are insistent, for example, that Plas Leech is a key element of their build? I know Bort let it slip that it's a critical element of his calculations....and he's a dev.
The more pertinent question, is whether we'll even HAVE factions in the future-because the development trend for the last few years has not been in support of that-yet factions remain.
Instead of being developed, they're treated as irrelevant. It IS a catch-22, and that has also become a problem-the self-reinforcing statistical trend made manifest. While I protested this occasionally (and even got quite salty with the wording at times) simple fact, now, is after cost-analysis, Cryptic really can't afford to deliver a multi-faction game where the focus is not exclusively on a Federation/Starfleet centric storyline. Even their token stories like House of Pegh are written from a Federation/Starfleet perspective, and the tutorial you spend a lot of time being Frank Drake's fetchboy.
this is largely because they truly don't have, and likely can't afford, enough staff to handle a two-faction situation.
I have to admit, I think the ultimate outcome for the Klingon faction will be, to paraphrase James. T Kirk, to let it[them] die...
To accuse the game of Fed-centric bias is unfair, because apparently the analytics for both consoles and PC, support the fact that more people want to play as Feds, than as Klinks... Maybe that is due to the focus of the past series', maybe it's not, but ultimately, it's an example of a majority of the people (aka players) 'casting a vote' of sorts, and so an example of democracy(ish) at work, where support and resources are going towards the largest player base. It stands to reason that Cryptic aren't going to waste resources developing content, for a faction which the majority of their players have only a passing (if that) interest in engaging with...
I have a Klingon toon (because I wanted to bring Q'sha to life) but frankly, what I've seen of the Klingon faction, doesn't really hold my interest (although the story is quite engaging) and the ship options, frankly, don't interest me to acquire. I don't like the over-saturation of Gorn, and for the reasons patrickngo has previously discussed on the inviability of keeping and maintaining slaves, it shows the Klingon Empire as being on the brink of being brought down. Not by defeat at the hands of an external foe, but subsumed from within, by growing population of the underling races, as was massively contributory to the downfall of the Roman Empire (and in Andromeda, the downfall of the Commonwealth, due to the Nietzschean uprising) InVerse, all that needs to happen, is enough Orion/Gorn captains to realize "We have positions of power on a lot of their ships..." and the Klingons (and their Empire) are(is) toast...
Personally speaking, I think one answer may be to make more Klingon ships available to Federation characters (as suggested, as Prize Ships) Kirk flew one, so why can't everyone else? The first time I played Agents of Yesterday, after confronting the Gorn ship in orbit, and tussling with the Romulans (who had that D-7 type warbird) one of the dropped items, was plasma torpedoes... As I've played more extensively, I've learned that Plasma torpedoes really aren't 'All That', and there are better options available (Ael's Mogai, for example, is packing dual quantum torpedoes, with phaser dual heavy cannons fore, with quantum mine launcher and phaser beam array aft) but at the time, I was super-jazzed about the idea of my Federation ship, firing salvaged Romulan plasma torpedos... I'm not saying that I want to put a Starfleet officer in charge of a Bird of Prey, but someone else might want to, and if they then had to pay for that non-faction ship (or maybe a better non-faction ship) that's going to mean $$s in Cryptic's pocket... I never thought I'd be someone who 'paid for pixels', but I paid for Cara to have the Armitage, the Rademaker and Valiant class ships... I can easily accept that someone might not necessarily want to play the Klingon faction, but might want to roll a Klingon-in-Starfleet toon or fly a Klingon ship... Further homogenization of the game would allow that (while maintaining the faction option, for those who actually want to play a different storyline...) and IMHO, that would probably bring in more money, than a standalone faction can, because it is i) aiming to the majority of the playerbase, not the minority, and ii) increasing their options for customization, and that is where I believe this game's true strength, in terms of player retention and sustainability, lies.
If I wasn't for Ael, I would have no real interest in playing the Romulan arc. I highly doubt I will roll another Romulan character to do it all over again, simply because the lack of ship options, mean there'll be no difference, so to me, no point... I'm tempted to roll some more KDF toons, because I have some character ideas I want to try, but as with the Romulan arc, I've no interest in actually replaying the Klingon arc with different ships, because IMHO, there aren't enough to choose from... Of the various Fed toons I've created; Cara, Galatea, T'Karra, Illya and Mas, they have all had different low-tier ships, in various forms of customization. Regardless of my interest admittedly being to Federation, rather than KDF or RR, the game itself best facilitates the customization options, which is what makes the game interesting to me, via the Fed faction...
The more Cryptic homogenizes the game, the more opportunities players will have to try new options, without being railroaded into a stagnating and under-supplied faction... So yeah, perhaps the best thing, would simply be to 'let it[them] die...
I know it is long, but I elected to leave the prior quotes at full length ...
How about this? Prize ship marks/tokens awarded to players for defeating ships in combat!!!
Get one or more prize ship marks/tokens for your target ships, and depending on rarity they can be turned in for the right to fly a re-flagged prize ship of that type! The player still has to go get the ship ... so no freebies. Just the right to fly it, earned by combat. If you already paid the C-Store for an account ship, you don't have to buy it again, just claim it on this toon once the right is earned. Or buy them on the exchange, whatever works.
You might even revitalize PVP with such an idea. Make PVP matches worth more in prize marks/tokens. You could have the skirmish zones like Ker'rat become farming locations for ships you don't have. Admittedly you will have a few dps gods running rough over the little ships, but if you gang up on some of those you may get tokens for their high Tier ship! (Hey dude, thanks for bringing your Kelvin Heavy Cruiser here. The honor of my House demanded we take one of those!)
I could get a Recon Sci for my Orion, or if I was ridiculously lucky, I could eventually get a Kumari for my Lethean. For me that would make PVP way worthwhile.
The reason I say marks/tokens is that either path would work. Tokens take up space in inventory till used (if the devs magically fall in love with this idea, make them stack, please) like lock boxes. Activating the token adds that ship to your options at the shipyard for ships to buy, and allows you to make a C-store purchase of a ship you can't normally use.
Marks would avoid taking inventory space, but if you track the marks, then you might need to focus on what Teir of ship was defeated. If you have more T2 KDF marks earned you can get a T2 KDF ship easier. Something like that. The main reason would be to avoid having people just save marks up to only get the T6 stuff. More variety is fun. Make Kirk fly a BoP because that IS what he 'defeated'.
Maybe I am crazy, but I am in love with my own idea here. Is anyone else?
Qapla!
As turbomagnus said, and then some, I am completely against anything which has anything to do with PvP, for the above given reasons. Beta testing skirmishes for Trexels, there was no opponent balancing, meaning that someone could either dish out a mahoosive curb-stomp, or be on the receiving end of one, and then need to spend resources to restore the ship(s) to function. Admitedly, STO lets us respawn with no loss (other than to our dignity and patience) but my over-riding feeling toward PvP, is, I don't want to get my a55 kicked, nor do I need to dish out an a55-whooping to make myself feel good (that's what Orion women and self-sealing stem-bolts are for... ) so I simply have no interest in PvP on a personal level...
On an objective level, my concern is still the same, that it opens the possibility of people either being taken down hard, or taking down others hard for the points, and I don't think that's necessary...
By all means have points/tokens/rewards as mission payouts, which someone can always grind their way through if they want... I'm no stranger to grinding... I've played Facility 4028 30 -- yes, three zero -- times... Why? To get Jem'Hadar shields for Cara and all 27 of her BOFFs, and twice to get Jem'Hadar BOFFs... I've just recycled my entire collection of exotic shields and just about every other possible resource, to get enough ec to get Cara a TR-116-B (I saw one last night, didn't have enough, so spent the day grinding and recycling, went back, to find that the cost had gone up by 100'000 ec >_< )
I believe the Big Sell of a concept like this to Cryptic, would be to make it a C Store deal... That way, they see actual $$s, which makes it worth their while to facilitate, where they couldn't care less if someone spend all week grinding to get enough resources for something, because it puts 0$$s in their pocket...
in a MULTI FACTION game, each faction should have their own, 'Unique' playing style that can't be replicated except by great effort by another faction. this is how you get stable population numbers and growth-which is good for the game, because it promotes variety and reduces boredom.
Cryptic couldn't manage it. That's why they 'ended' the Klingon/Federation war-so that they could focus on what they were already focused on, because they don't have enough staff or budget to do otherwise.
That's not so, because at its core, the issue needing to be recognized, is Supply and Demand. If there's no demand, then the supply becomes irrelevant. Analytics are showing that a fair majority of players are playing Fed. Those folks likely have very little (if any) interest in playing Klingon or Romulan (unless it was possibly to allow a Romulan or Klingon in Starfleet) so with regards the supply and demand notion, it doesn't matter how good the other options are, because those Fed players aren't interested in the alternatives, and likely never will be. That's why I said before, Cryptic aren't going to waste resources generating content solely for factions, which their figures tell them don't have player interest. Making the content available across faction, on the other hand, would allow someone who plays Fed to try a Klingon ship, without having to go through the hassles of grinding out a new toon and doing the missions. That would mean that the player gets their ship, Cryptic gets their $$s, which they then can invest into content for the faction and its storyline, so a win-win scenario
[Edit to add] I just rolled this lovely...
Why? Here's why...
Homage to one of my favorite, and the most bada55, female characters ever...
I have no intention whatsoever in actually levelling her up, I just wanted her to be in existence...
The Conspiracy is strong with this OP. You should really just stop while you are ahead....
Oh wait then it wouldn't be a Dead Horse of craziness.
The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
Was it working? woW players I've talked to certainly don't think there is any sort of equality, or even approximately equal usefulness. People only played tanks because some fights require them to avoid getting wiped repeatedly. That's not an example of good design.
Chars were still categorized in one of three groups, and relative values of races was determined by how well they did in those roles.
You guys are going to crack the code and make multiple factions viable for PWE? Four pages in, I've not seen the magic formula! Keep on keeping on though!
in a MULTI FACTION game, each faction should have their own, 'Unique' playing style that can't be replicated except by great effort by another faction. this is how you get stable population numbers and growth-which is good for the game, because it promotes variety and reduces boredom.
Cryptic couldn't manage it. That's why they 'ended' the Klingon/Federation war-so that they could focus on what they were already focused on, because they don't have enough staff or budget to do otherwise.
That's not so, because at its core, the issue needing to be recognized, is Supply and Demand. If there's no demand, then the supply becomes irrelevant. Analytics are showing that a fair majority of players are playing Fed. Those folks likely have very little (if any) interest in playing Klingon or Romulan (unless it was possibly to allow a Romulan or Klingon in Starfleet) so with regards the supply and demand notion, it doesn't matter how good the other options are, because those Fed players aren't interested in the alternatives, and likely never will be. That's why I said before, Cryptic aren't going to waste resources generating content solely for factions, which their figures tell them don't have player interest. Making the content available across faction, on the other hand, would allow someone who plays Fed to try a Klingon ship, without having to go through the hassles of grinding out a new toon and doing the missions. That would mean that the player gets their ship, Cryptic gets their $$s, which they then can invest into content for the faction and its storyline, so a win-win scenario
[Edit to add] I just rolled this lovely...
Why? Here's why...
Homage to one of my favorite, and the most bada55, female characters ever...
I have no intention whatsoever in actually levelling her up, I just wanted her to be in existence...
what you're missing, marcus, is that demand's been tapering off for years because of what amounts to lack of supply. It's a self-defeating pattern, players don't stay, so you need new players, but they're not staying either and that's a lot to do with poor quality of supplied content.
it is a GIVEN that KDF/Romulan/anyonebutfed is going to be a minority-that's assumed, or should be. fact is, you rely on your "analytics" alone, the smart move is always to make a single-faction PvE game, and never, ever, ever do any other faction, or even allow PvP in any game.
at all.
because it's not just most STO players that don't PvP, it's most People, you dig?
once you've done it though-once you've introduced the concept of 'other factions', then quality matters, because lack of it impacts your company's reputation and earning power, and if it's as extremely poor as STO, that impacts your earning power and ability to retain talent, keep making GOOD content, etc.
The Mistake was made-letting players have any faction other than Federation. That's a mistake it's about six years too late to correct. at this point, Homogenizing is the wrong move, because it's seen as a tacit admission of utter and complete failure to deliver.
It's also the only thing Cryptic can do, because...they have failed. and they are not likely to succeed given the expense necessary.
IOW it's already a failure, Cryptic doesn't, and won't, have the resources to make it successful. The ONLY thing they can do, is what they're doing: selling nostalgia and relying on the Star Trek name, instead of the quality of their work to support the game. It's all they have the resources to do.
I get what you're saying, but what you're missing, is that the quality of the material is irrelevant. If people don't want to play KDF or RR, then no content in the world is going to make them want to, and they have to want to play thus, for there to be the money to put back into the faction via better story content. Failure of player retention, will be down to folks not wanting to keep repeating the same game with a different toon.
Like I said, I highly doubt I'll be rolling any more Romulan toons, because the ship content isn't there to allow me to play that arc differently (same goes for Klingon) More ships might tempt me, but we're only talking 'tempt', rather than 'definite hook', because those factions themselves, just don't interest me, regardless of the content... Fed faction, on the other hand, as I said, I've been able to rework with various toons, using the different ships and different BOFFs, to vary the interaction to the same storyline, enough to keep it interesting. KDF just can't match that flexibility and choice...
I agree, all they can really do is sell nostalgia, but a way to play into that, would be to give Fed players, the option to C Store alternate faction's ships. It has to be a cash purchase, because that gives Cryptic what they need/want: $$s. Ideally, it should be aimed at all players, but I'm using the example of it Feds being able to buy Klink ships, because that is aiming at the prime demographic of players: Feds... It has to be aimed at where the money is, because without that, Cryptic can't produce new content for any faction...
I'm not saying they should necessarily abandon the other factions entirely, but if they opened up other faction goodies to C Store, it's giving the players what they need to remain interested: Different options, and greater flexibility in their game... I don't see that as necessarily homogenizing the game into average, because it will allow players greater flexibility... Someone could put a Klingon in a Nova Class with all Romulan Weapons if they wanted, or any other combination which might appeal, so in that regard, it wouldn't really be homogenization at all, because of the variety of combinations it would bring to the table, and that $$ can then go back into creating the faction-specific story content, for those who actually want to fully play that faction's storyline. Like I said, Mila'di isn't actually for playing with (the storyline/payout simply isn't worth it) just for 'collecting', but if Cryptic were to open up the option for me to use her in the Fed storyline, with that greater range of ships, etc, then she would actually see some action...
The problem with that, as I've seen in BSG Online which uses a similar 'PVP rewards (Merits) to buy ships' system, is that it increases the chances of kill-stealing, higher level players jumping on lower level ones for easy rewards... actually, most of the things that are generally considered a negative for PVP, really.
Personally, I think it might be better if the rewards were earned via playing style; 'Merits' for science ships for using science abilities, Engineering 'merits' for using engineering abilities - since those are where healing abilities lie, it would really give players a reason to help each other out as teams instead of faction-against-faction free-for-alls and it would also make it harder for, as you put it, 'dps gods' to be able to get all the good ships that way.
Well I like he idea of teamwork. You could avoid the kill stealing thing by having rewards for such kills based on % damage done.
I respect your concerns. I am going to think on this awhile.
Qapla!
Quick thought. I it is PVP you can still award the loser 'marks' for the engagement, just not as many. For justification you can consider that when you fight someone you gain intelligence about their capabilities, and learn to replicate them sometimes. Still kicking this around.
People complain about anti-KDF bias in the game, where KDF faction got both scarcely-clad Orion girls and big bad-a$$ Gorn dudes without any grounds in Trek canon whatsoever.
Yeah, right - sounds legit.
*get a orion on his fed the a gorn on his tos fed then looks over the much larger ship selection* what were you saying again?
disagreeing about what, if anything should be done about the current imbalance is fine but pretending it doesn't exist is not.
I normally avoid these kinds of threads, but I'd like to ask what the KDF is supposed to call a good science ship? I kind of force my Fleet K'tinga to stand in for one. I consider the ship to be very versatile. It is even more versatile if you managed to get a lot of Zen store ships you can borrow universals from.
My main Fed could get the Recon Sci, and the Fleet version, either of which I recommend highly as you near the top levels. It is in my opinion a truly combat worthy sci ship. The K'tingas of any stripe just aren't there. Combat worthy yes. Not a science ship.
I am giving KDF allied race ships a chance to fill in, but I am still trying to make up my mind. Either way, the ship selection is pretty weak. It's almost worse though if you are a Romulan KDF because KDF faction allegiance does not always help you qualify for ship access. It is slightly better for UFP Romulans because even if they don't get to use all Federation ships, they still have more choices than the KDF Roms.
Since thelordofshades brings up Orion 'girls' and Gorn 'dudes' in an attempt to claim that makes it all better some how, let me point out that the Fed side is more than capable of having a girl character who is every bit as hot as an Orion, and who can kick every bit as much butt as a Gorn, and they have more racial templates to build from. I'd also point out that the Gorn, and the Orions were both at least nominally hostile to the Federation in canon, so if there was a logical, canon side for them to be on, it would be the KDF.
But I want to clarify that I don't believe there is a bias. I think it is indifference and apathy that is primarily at work here. That is why the C-store has more ships, costumes, and options in general for the UFP. Nobody is likely saying "To heck with those Klingons! They don't need cool stuff! Lets give it all to the Federation!"
Instead it is more like "Klingons? We have Klingons in the game? Well then we will have to get around to making some content for them someday, won't we? Someday soon! Next episode for sure ..."
At a minimum there should be more overlap between Romulan and KDF options. The Romulans had KDF ships in TOS! Remember the NCC-1701 going to warp NINE! Do you also remember the ship type that was gaining on her after she did?! It was a D-7 Battle cruiser! The Duras had so many dealings with the Romulans it seems like an obvious thing for the KDF to have acquired some Romulan ships prior to the destruction of Hobus, and maybe even dress those ships up a bit to be better tools for KDF captains to go marauding with.
Actually, in all the decades and centuries of warfare, it isn't even a stretch to think that the KDF could have working examples of nearly any ship they engaged since TOS days. Dominion, Romulan, Federation, etc. A way to represent that could be to allow the KDF to use C-Store ships outside their faction as 'prize ships'.
I am all for fairness ... let the UFP have captured ships also
Anyway, at least then the ship disparity would be a lot less, and maybe we would get some decent sci ships out of it.
The problem I see with the Fed-centric bias is, quite simply, a Catch-22:
* Cryptic doesn't make KDF/RRF material a priority because they're a small minority of the player-base
* Players don't choose to play KDF/RRF characters because Cryptic doesn't make faction-specific content a priority
Sic vita! Quid agis?
Except that the consoles have proven that the Fed-centric bias is not a Catch-22. No new faction-specific content means that it doesn't matter which faction you play as. The consoles have none of the problems with the Klingons (originally PvP only faction) and Romulans (didn't exist for the first couple of years) that supposedly produced the Fed-centric bias on the PC.
The Fed-centric bias is due to the hundreds of Star Trek episodes that focused purely on a Starfleet crew. (snip)
In short, the franchise has a Fed-centric bias which programs the majority of fans to lead with visions of how cool their Federation captain will be. I don't think that is actually in dispute.(snip)
Anyway, Live Long and Qapla!
It's really a signficant problem from a game-design end. HOW do they make the faction more interesting/attractive without:
1. blowing the budget.
2. losing their existing base. (snip)
3. That first "Winback weekend" might have left psychological scars in it's wake, and a bit of a bunker mentality at the studio.
I hope nobody minds if I trimmed the above down a bit?
I think there is a catch 22 effect in that is always word of mouth marketing, and so the difference in content will at least occasionally get mentioned to a new customer. That doesn't mean that most of the problem isn't directly related to the lack of canon Klingon lead roles, and it seems valid to consider that Cryptic has data to support that.
I still think it is at least a viable option to make more c-store content cross factional.
Also, really, why can't the KDF capture and use Mirror Fed ships if the Feds can? That is more of what I am trying to get at.
Anyway, good chance this thread will go south soon. I personally want to thank people for caring enough to look. KDF is what my main character was right off the bat, and I do not regret that. I only sometimes wish my main had more content that fit the faction. More of a wish, than it is a complaint.
Qapla!
I don't mind, you kept the key problems...admittedly without much explanation. I don't think cross-factioning MORE stuff is the answer, given the direction Cryptic's taken in the past via Lockbox items (particularly consoles, and later Traits). They've actually been homogenizing their asses off for four years...and I don't see KDF numbers increasing. See lots of feds running gear that was initially only released KDF side, but the opposite has not been exactly a shining example of how reducing or removing unique traits from factions can grow those minority factions.
Quite the opposite, actually, so history in the game and in this community doesn't support your thesis, rather, it supports the opposing view. HOw many Fed captains out there are insistent, for example, that Plas Leech is a key element of their build? I know Bort let it slip that it's a critical element of his calculations....and he's a dev.
The more pertinent question, is whether we'll even HAVE factions in the future-because the development trend for the last few years has not been in support of that-yet factions remain.
Instead of being developed, they're treated as irrelevant. It IS a catch-22, and that has also become a problem-the self-reinforcing statistical trend made manifest. While I protested this occasionally (and even got quite salty with the wording at times) simple fact, now, is after cost-analysis, Cryptic really can't afford to deliver a multi-faction game where the focus is not exclusively on a Federation/Starfleet centric storyline. Even their token stories like House of Pegh are written from a Federation/Starfleet perspective, and the tutorial you spend a lot of time being Frank Drake's fetchboy.
this is largely because they truly don't have, and likely can't afford, enough staff to handle a two-faction situation.
I have to admit, I think the ultimate outcome for the Klingon faction will be, to paraphrase James. T Kirk, to let it[them] die...
To accuse the game of Fed-centric bias is unfair, because apparently the analytics for both consoles and PC, support the fact that more people want to play as Feds, than as Klinks... Maybe that is due to the focus of the past series', maybe it's not, but ultimately, it's an example of a majority of the people (aka players) 'casting a vote' of sorts, and so an example of democracy(ish) at work, where support and resources are going towards the largest player base. It stands to reason that Cryptic aren't going to waste resources developing content, for a faction which the majority of their players have only a passing (if that) interest in engaging with...
I have a Klingon toon (because I wanted to bring Q'sha to life) but frankly, what I've seen of the Klingon faction, doesn't really hold my interest (although the story is quite engaging) and the ship options, frankly, don't interest me to acquire. I don't like the over-saturation of Gorn, and for the reasons patrickngo has previously discussed on the inviability of keeping and maintaining slaves, it shows the Klingon Empire as being on the brink of being brought down. Not by defeat at the hands of an external foe, but subsumed from within, by growing population of the underling races, as was massively contributory to the downfall of the Roman Empire (and in Andromeda, the downfall of the Commonwealth, due to the Nietzschean uprising) InVerse, all that needs to happen, is enough Orion/Gorn captains to realize "We have positions of power on a lot of their ships..." and the Klingons (and their Empire) are(is) toast...
Personally speaking, I think one answer may be to make more Klingon ships available to Federation characters (as suggested, as Prize Ships) Kirk flew one, so why can't everyone else? The first time I played Agents of Yesterday, after confronting the Gorn ship in orbit, and tussling with the Romulans (who had that D-7 type warbird) one of the dropped items, was plasma torpedoes... As I've played more extensively, I've learned that Plasma torpedoes really aren't 'All That', and there are better options available (Ael's Mogai, for example, is packing dual quantum torpedoes, with phaser dual heavy cannons fore, with quantum mine launcher and phaser beam array aft) but at the time, I was super-jazzed about the idea of my Federation ship, firing salvaged Romulan plasma torpedos... I'm not saying that I want to put a Starfleet officer in charge of a Bird of Prey, but someone else might want to, and if they then had to pay for that non-faction ship (or maybe a better non-faction ship) that's going to mean $$s in Cryptic's pocket... I never thought I'd be someone who 'paid for pixels', but I paid for Cara to have the Armitage, the Rademaker and Valiant class ships... I can easily accept that someone might not necessarily want to play the Klingon faction, but might want to roll a Klingon-in-Starfleet toon or fly a Klingon ship... Further homogenization of the game would allow that (while maintaining the faction option, for those who actually want to play a different storyline...) and IMHO, that would probably bring in more money, than a standalone faction can, because it is i) aiming to the majority of the playerbase, not the minority, and ii) increasing their options for customization, and that is where I believe this game's true strength, in terms of player retention and sustainability, lies.
If I wasn't for Ael, I would have no real interest in playing the Romulan arc. I highly doubt I will roll another Romulan character to do it all over again, simply because the lack of ship options, mean there'll be no difference, so to me, no point... I'm tempted to roll some more KDF toons, because I have some character ideas I want to try, but as with the Romulan arc, I've no interest in actually replaying the Klingon arc with different ships, because IMHO, there aren't enough to choose from... Of the various Fed toons I've created; Cara, Galatea, T'Karra, Illya and Mas, they have all had different low-tier ships, in various forms of customization. Regardless of my interest admittedly being to Federation, rather than KDF or RR, the game itself best facilitates the customization options, which is what makes the game interesting to me, via the Fed faction...
The more Cryptic homogenizes the game, the more opportunities players will have to try new options, without being railroaded into a stagnating and under-supplied faction... So yeah, perhaps the best thing, would simply be to 'let it[them] die...
I know it is long, but I elected to leave the prior quotes at full length ...
How about this? Prize ship marks/tokens awarded to players for defeating ships in combat!!!
Get one or more prize ship marks/tokens for your target ships, and depending on rarity they can be turned in for the right to fly a re-flagged prize ship of that type! The player still has to go get the ship ... so no freebies. Just the right to fly it, earned by combat. If you already paid the C-Store for an account ship, you don't have to buy it again, just claim it on this toon once the right is earned. Or buy them on the exchange, whatever works.
You might even revitalize PVP with such an idea. Make PVP matches worth more in prize marks/tokens. You could have the skirmish zones like Ker'rat become farming locations for ships you don't have. Admittedly you will have a few dps gods running rough over the little ships, but if you gang up on some of those you may get tokens for their high Tier ship! (Hey dude, thanks for bringing your Kelvin Heavy Cruiser here. The honor of my House demanded we take one of those!)
I could get a Recon Sci for my Orion, or if I was ridiculously lucky, I could eventually get a Kumari for my Lethean. For me that would make PVP way worthwhile.
The reason I say marks/tokens is that either path would work. Tokens take up space in inventory till used (if the devs magically fall in love with this idea, make them stack, please) like lock boxes. Activating the token adds that ship to your options at the shipyard for ships to buy, and allows you to make a C-store purchase of a ship you can't normally use.
Marks would avoid taking inventory space, but if you track the marks, then you might need to focus on what Teir of ship was defeated. If you have more T2 KDF marks earned you can get a T2 KDF ship easier. Something like that. The main reason would be to avoid having people just save marks up to only get the T6 stuff. More variety is fun. Make Kirk fly a BoP because that IS what he 'defeated'.
Maybe I am crazy, but I am in love with my own idea here. Is anyone else?
Qapla!
As turbomagnus said, and then some, I am completely against anything which has anything to do with PvP, for the above given reasons. Beta testing skirmishes for Trexels, there was no opponent balancing, meaning that someone could either dish out a mahoosive curb-stomp, or be on the receiving end of one, and then need to spend resources to restore the ship(s) to function. Admitedly, STO lets us respawn with no loss (other than to our dignity and patience) but my over-riding feeling toward PvP, is, I don't want to get my a55 kicked, nor do I need to dish out an a55-whooping to make myself feel good (that's what Orion women and self-sealing stem-bolts are for... ) so I simply have no interest in PvP on a personal level...
On an objective level, my concern is still the same, that it opens the possibility of people either being taken down hard, or taking down others hard for the points, and I don't think that's necessary...
By all means have points/tokens/rewards as mission payouts, which someone can always grind their way through if they want... I'm no stranger to grinding... I've played Facility 4028 30 -- yes, three zero -- times... Why? To get Jem'Hadar shields for Cara and all 27 of her BOFFs, and twice to get Jem'Hadar BOFFs... I've just recycled my entire collection of exotic shields and just about every other possible resource, to get enough ec to get Cara a TR-116-B (I saw one last night, didn't have enough, so spent the day grinding and recycling, went back, to find that the cost had gone up by 100'000 ec >_< )
I believe the Big Sell of a concept like this to Cryptic, would be to make it a C Store deal... That way, they see actual $$s, which makes it worth their while to facilitate, where they couldn't care less if someone spend all week grinding to get enough resources for something, because it puts 0$$s in their pocket...
So make it so that you have to buy Prize Modules from the C-store to activate your prize marks? I would play that game!
It doesn't have to be PVP for me, I was throwing out there as a possible perk. I had no idea that part would be taken the opposite way.
Ok, so earn the marks/tokens (no PVP), and buy the Prize Modules, and then what? Does that sound good? Who likes the sound of that?
in a MULTI FACTION game, each faction should have their own, 'Unique' playing style that can't be replicated except by great effort by another faction. this is how you get stable population numbers and growth-which is good for the game, because it promotes variety and reduces boredom.
Cryptic couldn't manage it. That's why they 'ended' the Klingon/Federation war-so that they could focus on what they were already focused on, because they don't have enough staff or budget to do otherwise.
That's not so, because at its core, the issue needing to be recognized, is Supply and Demand. If there's no demand, then the supply becomes irrelevant. Analytics are showing that a fair majority of players are playing Fed. Those folks likely have very little (if any) interest in playing Klingon or Romulan (unless it was possibly to allow a Romulan or Klingon in Starfleet) so with regards the supply and demand notion, it doesn't matter how good the other options are, because those Fed players aren't interested in the alternatives, and likely never will be. That's why I said before, Cryptic aren't going to waste resources generating content solely for factions, which their figures tell them don't have player interest. Making the content available across faction, on the other hand, would allow someone who plays Fed to try a Klingon ship, without having to go through the hassles of grinding out a new toon and doing the missions. That would mean that the player gets their ship, Cryptic gets their $$s, which they then can invest into content for the faction and its storyline, so a win-win scenario
[Edit to add] I just rolled this lovely...
Why? Here's why...
Homage to one of my favorite, and the most bada55, female characters ever...
I have no intention whatsoever in actually levelling her up, I just wanted her to be in existence...
OK, this lady delivers on the visual expectation most have for the Orions. For my own officers most of the Orions use the standard KDF uniforms, just to be different, but all of a sudden I am thinking I am maybe missing out on some of the fun. Neither standard KDF uniform, or the space'kini will stop a phaser on max setting (or stun either I bet ...) but yeah! I would put her on a KDF faction recruiting poster!
Normally, like with any other online game I play, I'd be all "Well it's already made, and it's not broken so there's no need to remove it" ... but this game's had a few things that fit that bill that were removed. So at some point an update to some system may come along that will indeed remove factions.
Though in all likelihood with the success of the Romulan expansion and so far the success of AoY, they'll likely maintain the status quo of micro factions. Which seem to work just fine, on all counts as the "slap in the face" it provides for "Forums PVP" is a an engine that drives all kinds of discussions (like this one)!
In the end, the simple fact we can derive from Olivia's copy pasta is that for six long years even we on the forums have been big time winners with this faction disparity as we've never run out of things to talk about!
People complain about anti-KDF bias in the game, where KDF faction got both scarcely-clad Orion girls and big bad-a$$ Gorn dudes without any grounds in Trek canon whatsoever.
Yeah, right - sounds legit.
*get a orion on his fed the a gorn on his tos fed then looks over the much larger ship selection* what were you saying again?
disagreeing about what, if anything should be done about the current imbalance is fine but pretending it doesn't exist is not.
I normally avoid these kinds of threads, but I'd like to ask what the KDF is supposed to call a good science ship? I kind of force my Fleet K'tinga to stand in for one. I consider the ship to be very versatile. It is even more versatile if you managed to get a lot of Zen store ships you can borrow universals from.
My main Fed could get the Recon Sci, and the Fleet version, either of which I recommend highly as you near the top levels. It is in my opinion a truly combat worthy sci ship. The K'tingas of any stripe just aren't there. Combat worthy yes. Not a science ship.
I am giving KDF allied race ships a chance to fill in, but I am still trying to make up my mind. Either way, the ship selection is pretty weak. It's almost worse though if you are a Romulan KDF because KDF faction allegiance does not always help you qualify for ship access. It is slightly better for UFP Romulans because even if they don't get to use all Federation ships, they still have more choices than the KDF Roms.
Since thelordofshades brings up Orion 'girls' and Gorn 'dudes' in an attempt to claim that makes it all better some how, let me point out that the Fed side is more than capable of having a girl character who is every bit as hot as an Orion, and who can kick every bit as much butt as a Gorn, and they have more racial templates to build from. I'd also point out that the Gorn, and the Orions were both at least nominally hostile to the Federation in canon, so if there was a logical, canon side for them to be on, it would be the KDF.
But I want to clarify that I don't believe there is a bias. I think it is indifference and apathy that is primarily at work here. That is why the C-store has more ships, costumes, and options in general for the UFP. Nobody is likely saying "To heck with those Klingons! They don't need cool stuff! Lets give it all to the Federation!"
Instead it is more like "Klingons? We have Klingons in the game? Well then we will have to get around to making some content for them someday, won't we? Someday soon! Next episode for sure ..."
At a minimum there should be more overlap between Romulan and KDF options. The Romulans had KDF ships in TOS! Remember the NCC-1701 going to warp NINE! Do you also remember the ship type that was gaining on her after she did?! It was a D-7 Battle cruiser! The Duras had so many dealings with the Romulans it seems like an obvious thing for the KDF to have acquired some Romulan ships prior to the destruction of Hobus, and maybe even dress those ships up a bit to be better tools for KDF captains to go marauding with.
Actually, in all the decades and centuries of warfare, it isn't even a stretch to think that the KDF could have working examples of nearly any ship they engaged since TOS days. Dominion, Romulan, Federation, etc. A way to represent that could be to allow the KDF to use C-Store ships outside their faction as 'prize ships'.
I am all for fairness ... let the UFP have captured ships also
Anyway, at least then the ship disparity would be a lot less, and maybe we would get some decent sci ships out of it.
The problem I see with the Fed-centric bias is, quite simply, a Catch-22:
* Cryptic doesn't make KDF/RRF material a priority because they're a small minority of the player-base
* Players don't choose to play KDF/RRF characters because Cryptic doesn't make faction-specific content a priority
Sic vita! Quid agis?
Except that the consoles have proven that the Fed-centric bias is not a Catch-22. No new faction-specific content means that it doesn't matter which faction you play as. The consoles have none of the problems with the Klingons (originally PvP only faction) and Romulans (didn't exist for the first couple of years) that supposedly produced the Fed-centric bias on the PC.
The Fed-centric bias is due to the hundreds of Star Trek episodes that focused purely on a Starfleet crew. (snip)
In short, the franchise has a Fed-centric bias which programs the majority of fans to lead with visions of how cool their Federation captain will be. I don't think that is actually in dispute.(snip)
Anyway, Live Long and Qapla!
It's really a signficant problem from a game-design end. HOW do they make the faction more interesting/attractive without:
1. blowing the budget.
2. losing their existing base. (snip)
3. That first "Winback weekend" might have left psychological scars in it's wake, and a bit of a bunker mentality at the studio.
I hope nobody minds if I trimmed the above down a bit?
I think there is a catch 22 effect in that is always word of mouth marketing, and so the difference in content will at least occasionally get mentioned to a new customer. That doesn't mean that most of the problem isn't directly related to the lack of canon Klingon lead roles, and it seems valid to consider that Cryptic has data to support that.
I still think it is at least a viable option to make more c-store content cross factional.
Also, really, why can't the KDF capture and use Mirror Fed ships if the Feds can? That is more of what I am trying to get at.
Anyway, good chance this thread will go south soon. I personally want to thank people for caring enough to look. KDF is what my main character was right off the bat, and I do not regret that. I only sometimes wish my main had more content that fit the faction. More of a wish, than it is a complaint.
Qapla!
I don't mind, you kept the key problems...admittedly without much explanation. I don't think cross-factioning MORE stuff is the answer, given the direction Cryptic's taken in the past via Lockbox items (particularly consoles, and later Traits). They've actually been homogenizing their asses off for four years...and I don't see KDF numbers increasing. See lots of feds running gear that was initially only released KDF side, but the opposite has not been exactly a shining example of how reducing or removing unique traits from factions can grow those minority factions.
Quite the opposite, actually, so history in the game and in this community doesn't support your thesis, rather, it supports the opposing view. HOw many Fed captains out there are insistent, for example, that Plas Leech is a key element of their build? I know Bort let it slip that it's a critical element of his calculations....and he's a dev.
The more pertinent question, is whether we'll even HAVE factions in the future-because the development trend for the last few years has not been in support of that-yet factions remain.
Instead of being developed, they're treated as irrelevant. It IS a catch-22, and that has also become a problem-the self-reinforcing statistical trend made manifest. While I protested this occasionally (and even got quite salty with the wording at times) simple fact, now, is after cost-analysis, Cryptic really can't afford to deliver a multi-faction game where the focus is not exclusively on a Federation/Starfleet centric storyline. Even their token stories like House of Pegh are written from a Federation/Starfleet perspective, and the tutorial you spend a lot of time being Frank Drake's fetchboy.
this is largely because they truly don't have, and likely can't afford, enough staff to handle a two-faction situation.
I have to admit, I think the ultimate outcome for the Klingon faction will be, to paraphrase James. T Kirk, to let it[them] die...
To accuse the game of Fed-centric bias is unfair, because apparently the analytics for both consoles and PC, support the fact that more people want to play as Feds, than as Klinks... Maybe that is due to the focus of the past series', maybe it's not, but ultimately, it's an example of a majority of the people (aka players) 'casting a vote' of sorts, and so an example of democracy(ish) at work, where support and resources are going towards the largest player base. It stands to reason that Cryptic aren't going to waste resources developing content, for a faction which the majority of their players have only a passing (if that) interest in engaging with...
I have a Klingon toon (because I wanted to bring Q'sha to life) but frankly, what I've seen of the Klingon faction, doesn't really hold my interest (although the story is quite engaging) and the ship options, frankly, don't interest me to acquire. I don't like the over-saturation of Gorn, and for the reasons patrickngo has previously discussed on the inviability of keeping and maintaining slaves, it shows the Klingon Empire as being on the brink of being brought down. Not by defeat at the hands of an external foe, but subsumed from within, by growing population of the underling races, as was massively contributory to the downfall of the Roman Empire (and in Andromeda, the downfall of the Commonwealth, due to the Nietzschean uprising) InVerse, all that needs to happen, is enough Orion/Gorn captains to realize "We have positions of power on a lot of their ships..." and the Klingons (and their Empire) are(is) toast...
Personally speaking, I think one answer may be to make more Klingon ships available to Federation characters (as suggested, as Prize Ships) Kirk flew one, so why can't everyone else? The first time I played Agents of Yesterday, after confronting the Gorn ship in orbit, and tussling with the Romulans (who had that D-7 type warbird) one of the dropped items, was plasma torpedoes... As I've played more extensively, I've learned that Plasma torpedoes really aren't 'All That', and there are better options available (Ael's Mogai, for example, is packing dual quantum torpedoes, with phaser dual heavy cannons fore, with quantum mine launcher and phaser beam array aft) but at the time, I was super-jazzed about the idea of my Federation ship, firing salvaged Romulan plasma torpedos... I'm not saying that I want to put a Starfleet officer in charge of a Bird of Prey, but someone else might want to, and if they then had to pay for that non-faction ship (or maybe a better non-faction ship) that's going to mean $$s in Cryptic's pocket... I never thought I'd be someone who 'paid for pixels', but I paid for Cara to have the Armitage, the Rademaker and Valiant class ships... I can easily accept that someone might not necessarily want to play the Klingon faction, but might want to roll a Klingon-in-Starfleet toon or fly a Klingon ship... Further homogenization of the game would allow that (while maintaining the faction option, for those who actually want to play a different storyline...) and IMHO, that would probably bring in more money, than a standalone faction can, because it is i) aiming to the majority of the playerbase, not the minority, and ii) increasing their options for customization, and that is where I believe this game's true strength, in terms of player retention and sustainability, lies.
If I wasn't for Ael, I would have no real interest in playing the Romulan arc. I highly doubt I will roll another Romulan character to do it all over again, simply because the lack of ship options, mean there'll be no difference, so to me, no point... I'm tempted to roll some more KDF toons, because I have some character ideas I want to try, but as with the Romulan arc, I've no interest in actually replaying the Klingon arc with different ships, because IMHO, there aren't enough to choose from... Of the various Fed toons I've created; Cara, Galatea, T'Karra, Illya and Mas, they have all had different low-tier ships, in various forms of customization. Regardless of my interest admittedly being to Federation, rather than KDF or RR, the game itself best facilitates the customization options, which is what makes the game interesting to me, via the Fed faction...
The more Cryptic homogenizes the game, the more opportunities players will have to try new options, without being railroaded into a stagnating and under-supplied faction... So yeah, perhaps the best thing, would simply be to 'let it[them] die...
I know it is long, but I elected to leave the prior quotes at full length ...
How about this? Prize ship marks/tokens awarded to players for defeating ships in combat!!!
Get one or more prize ship marks/tokens for your target ships, and depending on rarity they can be turned in for the right to fly a re-flagged prize ship of that type! The player still has to go get the ship ... so no freebies. Just the right to fly it, earned by combat. If you already paid the C-Store for an account ship, you don't have to buy it again, just claim it on this toon once the right is earned. Or buy them on the exchange, whatever works.
You might even revitalize PVP with such an idea. Make PVP matches worth more in prize marks/tokens. You could have the skirmish zones like Ker'rat become farming locations for ships you don't have. Admittedly you will have a few dps gods running rough over the little ships, but if you gang up on some of those you may get tokens for their high Tier ship! (Hey dude, thanks for bringing your Kelvin Heavy Cruiser here. The honor of my House demanded we take one of those!)
I could get a Recon Sci for my Orion, or if I was ridiculously lucky, I could eventually get a Kumari for my Lethean. For me that would make PVP way worthwhile.
The reason I say marks/tokens is that either path would work. Tokens take up space in inventory till used (if the devs magically fall in love with this idea, make them stack, please) like lock boxes. Activating the token adds that ship to your options at the shipyard for ships to buy, and allows you to make a C-store purchase of a ship you can't normally use.
Marks would avoid taking inventory space, but if you track the marks, then you might need to focus on what Teir of ship was defeated. If you have more T2 KDF marks earned you can get a T2 KDF ship easier. Something like that. The main reason would be to avoid having people just save marks up to only get the T6 stuff. More variety is fun. Make Kirk fly a BoP because that IS what he 'defeated'.
Maybe I am crazy, but I am in love with my own idea here. Is anyone else?
Qapla!
As turbomagnus said, and then some, I am completely against anything which has anything to do with PvP, for the above given reasons. Beta testing skirmishes for Trexels, there was no opponent balancing, meaning that someone could either dish out a mahoosive curb-stomp, or be on the receiving end of one, and then need to spend resources to restore the ship(s) to function. Admitedly, STO lets us respawn with no loss (other than to our dignity and patience) but my over-riding feeling toward PvP, is, I don't want to get my a55 kicked, nor do I need to dish out an a55-whooping to make myself feel good (that's what Orion women and self-sealing stem-bolts are for... ) so I simply have no interest in PvP on a personal level...
On an objective level, my concern is still the same, that it opens the possibility of people either being taken down hard, or taking down others hard for the points, and I don't think that's necessary...
By all means have points/tokens/rewards as mission payouts, which someone can always grind their way through if they want... I'm no stranger to grinding... I've played Facility 4028 30 -- yes, three zero -- times... Why? To get Jem'Hadar shields for Cara and all 27 of her BOFFs, and twice to get Jem'Hadar BOFFs... I've just recycled my entire collection of exotic shields and just about every other possible resource, to get enough ec to get Cara a TR-116-B (I saw one last night, didn't have enough, so spent the day grinding and recycling, went back, to find that the cost had gone up by 100'000 ec >_< )
I believe the Big Sell of a concept like this to Cryptic, would be to make it a C Store deal... That way, they see actual $$s, which makes it worth their while to facilitate, where they couldn't care less if someone spend all week grinding to get enough resources for something, because it puts 0$$s in their pocket...
So make it so that you have to buy Prize Modules from the C-store to activate your prize marks? I would play that game!
It doesn't have to be PVP for me, I was throwing out there as a possible perk. I had no idea that part would be taken the opposite way.
Ok, so earn the marks/tokens (no PVP), and buy the Prize Modules, and then what? Does that sound good? Who likes the sound of that?
Qapla!
I do and I don't... I don't, simply because I wouldn't want the combination of modules and marks to get a ship... If the options are simply available in the C Store, then anyone would simply be able to buy what they want, as they level up to it Again, my prime motivation for the notion, is putting $$s in Cryptic's pocket, without making it Pay to Win... Hitting PtW walls is why I don't really play Trexels anymore (ie I'm not bothered enough about winning, to be prepared to pay ) Paying for new ships, on the other hand, isn't about winning, but getting a better/different Playing Experience... Giving people flexibility and options, is more inclined to make someone think "I'll try that next time round..." to see the variety.
I just replayed one of the Breen missions for the deflector to sell. First time I played it, it was in a Constitution Cruiser, and the Breen freeze grenades were a nightmare... This time, it was flying a Valiant Class, and having had more access to the game, I put my main, and the most useful BOFF in those blue Nukara environmental suits, as they have the cold resistance, The other away team, were put in the Dominion environmental suits I hoarded (I have enough for everyone on the away team to have one, if I wanted ) And the freeze grenades? No problem... Sure, they frosted up the outer-surface of the suit, but not enough to really make an impact or slow down the a55-whooping
That I was playing the same mission, was completely overcome by the fact I was playing it with different toons, and a different ship...
in a MULTI FACTION game, each faction should have their own, 'Unique' playing style that can't be replicated except by great effort by another faction. this is how you get stable population numbers and growth-which is good for the game, because it promotes variety and reduces boredom.
Cryptic couldn't manage it. That's why they 'ended' the Klingon/Federation war-so that they could focus on what they were already focused on, because they don't have enough staff or budget to do otherwise.
That's not so, because at its core, the issue needing to be recognized, is Supply and Demand. If there's no demand, then the supply becomes irrelevant. Analytics are showing that a fair majority of players are playing Fed. Those folks likely have very little (if any) interest in playing Klingon or Romulan (unless it was possibly to allow a Romulan or Klingon in Starfleet) so with regards the supply and demand notion, it doesn't matter how good the other options are, because those Fed players aren't interested in the alternatives, and likely never will be. That's why I said before, Cryptic aren't going to waste resources generating content solely for factions, which their figures tell them don't have player interest. Making the content available across faction, on the other hand, would allow someone who plays Fed to try a Klingon ship, without having to go through the hassles of grinding out a new toon and doing the missions. That would mean that the player gets their ship, Cryptic gets their $$s, which they then can invest into content for the faction and its storyline, so a win-win scenario
[Edit to add] I just rolled this lovely...
Why? Here's why...
Homage to one of my favorite, and the most bada55, female characters ever...
I have no intention whatsoever in actually levelling her up, I just wanted her to be in existence...
OK, this lady delivers on the visual expectation most have for the Orions. For my own officers most of the Orions use the standard KDF uniforms, just to be different, but all of a sudden I am thinking I am maybe missing out on some of the fun. Neither standard KDF uniform, or the space'kini will stop a phaser on max setting (or stun either I bet ...) but yeah! I would put her on a KDF faction recruiting poster!
Qapla!
Oh, Mila'di is strictly civilian, I don't want to sully her with KDF shenanigans and being Drake's glove-puppet If she had a personal theme/Modus Operandi, it would be something along the lines of 'Boats and Hoe's'
You guys are going to crack the code and make multiple factions viable for PWE? Four pages in, I've not seen the magic formula! Keep on keeping on though!
I'm the lone voice so far saying they can't do it rather than won't. from what I can tell, MDK wants to go pure generic 'sell the feds klingon ships and forgettaboutit'-which I think is a solution that Geko would favour highly, personally, I feel the mess is made and can't be unmade, short that is of being honest and simply deleting the factions entirely then filtering in KDF ships and races as lockbox prizes for maximum profitz-after all, the percentage of KDF is small enough that Cryptic isn't compelled to dev for them anyway, so why maintain the fiction?
And why can't they do it? As you've said several times; Lack of resources... So give them the resources ($$s) and they would then be able to do so...
Lockboxes wouldn't be the way to go for fundraising either, as there's the possibility folks wouldn't want to gamble (as in literally not want to risk wasting money, rather than any moral objection) They would make more selling the ships openly, than they would selling lockbox keys, because the player who knows exactly what they're getting, and exactly what they need to spend to definitely get it, will spend the $$s, but if it becomes a gamble as to what they might get, especially if they've been stung by a less-than-awesome lockbox before...
For example, the last few times I tried to use upgrade tags, despite having the dilithium to cover the use, the system just said 'no upgrade inserted', did nothing to the item I wanted to upgrade, and still took the dilithium! I had wanted to upgrade a load of systems and components, but no way am I spending the time grinding to get the dilithium, to use in a process which has lately been more likely to fail than to succeed...
All it would take is a few crappy lockbox 'wins', and the casual player is likely to give up... Allow them to just make the purchase, and they're going to do so
That I was playing the same mission, was completely overcome by the fact I was playing it with different toons, and a different ship...
And that can sometimes be the embodiment of that old "change is as good as a vacation" concept; the game can feel completely different depending on how one plays - logical and pragmatic Vulcan, arguative Tellerite, an Orion Nausicaan or Ferengi whose focus is more on what they can gain from situations, an honorable Klingon or a ruthless one, a Romulan freedom fighter or one looking for revenge...
Even in the same race, there can be a difference between an Earth Human (idealistic, outgoing, adventurous), a human from Sigma Iotia II (complete with 'Formal' gangster suit when he's making 'offers they can't refuse'), or a 'Mirror Terran' Human (cruel, cunning, self-serving).
Different attitudes, different answers and actions, different feel to the game.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
You guys are going to crack the code and make multiple factions viable for PWE? Four pages in, I've not seen the magic formula! Keep on keeping on though!
I'm the lone voice so far saying they can't do it rather than won't. from what I can tell, MDK wants to go pure generic 'sell the feds klingon ships and forgettaboutit'-which I think is a solution that Geko would favour highly, personally, I feel the mess is made and can't be unmade, short that is of being honest and simply deleting the factions entirely then filtering in KDF ships and races as lockbox prizes for maximum profitz-after all, the percentage of KDF is small enough that Cryptic isn't compelled to dev for them anyway, so why maintain the fiction?
FOR ME! Maintain the fiction for me! By Kahless the unforgettable I will testify that playing the KDF faction was the decider for me to even try this game. I like the Fed options as well, but c'mon. What next? Gahg out of a box, just add water?!
MATLZ: Impressive. ...They can make planets.
KRUGE: Oh yes, ...new cities, homes in the country, ...your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming. ...Station!
No disrespect intended, but while I am for some cross faction content, I am not for elimination of the line between them.
That I was playing the same mission, was completely overcome by the fact I was playing it with different toons, and a different ship...
And that can sometimes be the embodiment of that old "change is as good as a vacation" concept; the game can feel completely different depending on how one plays - logical and pragmatic Vulcan, arguative Tellerite, an Orion Nausicaan or Ferengi whose focus is more on what they can gain from situations, an honorable Klingon or a ruthless one, a Romulan freedom fighter or one looking for revenge...
Even in the same race, there can be a difference between an Earth Human (idealistic, outgoing, adventurous), a human from Sigma Iotia II (complete with 'Formal' gangster suit when he's making 'offers they can't refuse'), or a 'Mirror Terran' Human (cruel, cunning, self-serving).
Different attitudes, different answers and actions, different feel to the game.
Precisely Now throw in the option of alternate ships, with different capabilities, such as a warbird's singularity burst, or a cloaking device, and things get very different People will pay for that variation, even if they don't want to 'go Full Empire'
You guys are going to crack the code and make multiple factions viable for PWE? Four pages in, I've not seen the magic formula! Keep on keeping on though!
I'm the lone voice so far saying they can't do it rather than won't. from what I can tell, MDK wants to go pure generic 'sell the feds klingon ships and forgettaboutit'-which I think is a solution that Geko would favour highly, personally, I feel the mess is made and can't be unmade, short that is of being honest and simply deleting the factions entirely then filtering in KDF ships and races as lockbox prizes for maximum profitz-after all, the percentage of KDF is small enough that Cryptic isn't compelled to dev for them anyway, so why maintain the fiction?
FOR ME! Maintain the fiction for me! By Kahless the unforgettable I will testify that playing the KDF faction was the decider for me to even try this game. I like the Fed options as well, but c'mon. What next? Gahg out of a box, just add water?!
MATLZ: Impressive. ...They can make planets.
KRUGE: Oh yes, ...new cities, homes in the country, ...your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming. ...Station!
No disrespect intended, but while I am for some cross faction content, I am not for elimination of the line between them.
Qapla!
Krogar, what you have to understand is twofold:
1. Devs only want to dev for the "Majority" as defined in their metrics. Specifically Cryptic's business people tell the Devs what they're going to be getting budget for-and it's for "The Majority" and ONLY "The Majority". Been like this for a while now. It's a big chunck of the powercreep problem, and a big reason for the two-years-no-nothing KDF got until Legacy of Romulus. YOu and I aren't this "Majority", and per Geko's responses in interviews, we're a minority that most of the staff would rather leave the game-because our departures, regardless of spending habits, aren't a factor.
2. Devs have been working hard to pave the way for ending the existence of the factions. Why else would they take the last two years focusing on the worst story arc in Enterprise (the show that had the worst ratings of all Trek shows?) It's because it's a way to get out of a mess that their predecessors got them into, a mess that included multiple factions they don't have the manpower or vision to support, PvP that they don't have a clue how to do, much less how to maintain, etc. etc.
It's where we're at, it's not going to improve, just running off of public information on likely development costs and man-hours required, vs. a game that's already run off most of the audience that MIGHT have served as a core to bring in new blood? It's very clear. It's even MORE clear when you parse through the interviews and dev statements and realize most of what we've gotten for KDF since 2012 has been worked 'off the books' and on someone's unpaid free-time, meaning there's at least one dev on the team that actually wants this game to be multi-faction as more than a marketing buzzword for deceptive advertising.
But that guy is pretty much by himself, and will never have the (Willing) support of the Lead Developer.
Well, like I said, no disrespect intended. If they eliminate the line, they better respect the Empire as they do it.
I get what you're saying, but what you're missing, is that the quality of the material is irrelevant. If people don't want to play KDF or RR, then no content in the world is going to make them want to, and they have to want to play thus, for there to be the money to put back into the faction via better story content. Failure of player retention, will be down to folks not wanting to keep repeating the same game with a different toon.
Like I said, I highly doubt I'll be rolling any more Romulan toons, because the ship content isn't there to allow me to play that arc differently (same goes for Klingon) More ships might tempt me, but we're only talking 'tempt', rather than 'definite hook', because those factions themselves, just don't interest me, regardless of the content... Fed faction, on the other hand, as I said, I've been able to rework with various toons, using the different ships and different BOFFs, to vary the interaction to the same storyline, enough to keep it interesting. KDF just can't match that flexibility and choice...
I don't see how the difference is THAT drastic. KDF has an interesting variety of options as-is. Yeah, Feds have more, But how many options are needed for playing to be fun?
Also player retention is about giving existing players fun stuff to do. New fleet holding? got it. yet another CC? Enh, it's something to do. Recruit events give people reasons to make more characters. And of course there's new missions. People who like KDF enough to try playing KDF will keep playing KDF as long as it's still fun. And really stories with "HONOR! GLORY! RAH!!!" only make sense if you play as a microbrain. Orions... not so much. Orions tend to be smooth talkers who'd rather steal your money than kill you.
I don't see how the difference is THAT drastic. KDF has an interesting variety of options as-is.
Play Stranded in Space in a Centaur Class, an Armitage Class, and a Valiant Class, and you will notice a very drastic difference...
KDF has an interesting variety of options?? Settle down, you'll make me split my sides with jokes like that! How many options of ship are there for each low-tier rank? And how many templates can each ship be customised from for free? Fed has the Miranda, with three sub-choices. KDF has one, with only two options, RR only has one, with no options!
But how many options are needed for playing to be fun?
How long is a piece of string? Of course, everyone will have a different boredom threshold, but there're only so many times someone can grind the same mission, with the same ship and same BOFFs, before saying enough's enough... If there aren't many options available, then that threshold will be hit sooner (assuming that someone even wants to play KDF: Statistics say that most, simply don't )
[
Also player retention is about giving existing players fun stuff to do. New fleet holding? got it. yet another CC? Enh, it's something to do. Recruit events give people reasons to make more characters. And of course there's new missions. People who like KDF enough to try playing KDF will keep playing KDF as long as it's still fun. And really stories with "HONOR! GLORY! RAH!!!" only make sense if you play as a microbrain. Orions... not so much. Orions tend to be smooth talkers who'd rather steal your money than kill you.
And for those not in a fleet? I don't plan on ever joining a fleet, because I play the game to play the game my way, with my characters, looking the way I want, doing what I want, and using my resources as I want, rather than paying them into a group fund... Don't get me wrong, fleets might offer some great things, but as I was trying to point out to patrickngo with regards playing KDF: If someone doesn't want to do it, then they're simply not going to do it, regardless of perks or content... By opening things up to all players, (ie more stuff for the Feds ;p ) Cryptic is increasing the offers to its primary market, which means more $$s for them, which is what they need/want. By hiding things behind faction/fleet walls, they're denying themselves, the potential sales to those folks who would buy, but who don't want to engage with that faction/fleet...
Equally, it's hard to be an Orion smooth talker, when the game offers one choice of action and dialogue
And for those not in a fleet? I don't plan on ever joining a fleet, because I play the game to play the game my way, with my characters, looking the way I want, doing what I want, and using my resources as I want, rather than paying them into a group fund...
So like me then? It can't be that I found the only Federation and Klingon fleets that are pretty much hands-off.
Of course, I gladly contribute to the fleet's holdings, but because I want the fleet gear that unlocks that way, and I need Fleet Credits to buy it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
There is also the possibility of since there is only 68% Federation, 20% Klingon, and 12% Romulan, then Cryptic will spend 68% of their budget on the Federation, 20% on Klingons, and 12% on Romulans. Of course, that 20% and 12% seems to amount to adding Klingon and Romulan versions of Federation C-Store ships.
My character Tsin'xing
I know it is long, but I elected to leave the prior quotes at full length ...
How about this? Prize ship marks/tokens awarded to players for defeating ships in combat!!!
Get one or more prize ship marks/tokens for your target ships, and depending on rarity they can be turned in for the right to fly a re-flagged prize ship of that type! The player still has to go get the ship ... so no freebies. Just the right to fly it, earned by combat. If you already paid the C-Store for an account ship, you don't have to buy it again, just claim it on this toon once the right is earned. Or buy them on the exchange, whatever works.
You might even revitalize PVP with such an idea. Make PVP matches worth more in prize marks/tokens. You could have the skirmish zones like Ker'rat become farming locations for ships you don't have. Admittedly you will have a few dps gods running rough over the little ships, but if you gang up on some of those you may get tokens for their high Tier ship! (Hey dude, thanks for bringing your Kelvin Heavy Cruiser here. The honor of my House demanded we take one of those!)
I could get a Recon Sci for my Orion, or if I was ridiculously lucky, I could eventually get a Kumari for my Lethean. For me that would make PVP way worthwhile.
The reason I say marks/tokens is that either path would work. Tokens take up space in inventory till used (if the devs magically fall in love with this idea, make them stack, please) like lock boxes. Activating the token adds that ship to your options at the shipyard for ships to buy, and allows you to make a C-store purchase of a ship you can't normally use.
Marks would avoid taking inventory space, but if you track the marks, then you might need to focus on what Teir of ship was defeated. If you have more T2 KDF marks earned you can get a T2 KDF ship easier. Something like that. The main reason would be to avoid having people just save marks up to only get the T6 stuff. More variety is fun. Make Kirk fly a BoP because that IS what he 'defeated'.
Maybe I am crazy, but I am in love with my own idea here. Is anyone else?
Qapla!
Personally, I think it might be better if the rewards were earned via playing style; 'Merits' for science ships for using science abilities, Engineering 'merits' for using engineering abilities - since those are where healing abilities lie, it would really give players a reason to help each other out as teams instead of faction-against-faction free-for-alls and it would also make it harder for, as you put it, 'dps gods' to be able to get all the good ships that way.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
On an objective level, my concern is still the same, that it opens the possibility of people either being taken down hard, or taking down others hard for the points, and I don't think that's necessary...
By all means have points/tokens/rewards as mission payouts, which someone can always grind their way through if they want... I'm no stranger to grinding... I've played Facility 4028 30 -- yes, three zero -- times... Why? To get Jem'Hadar shields for Cara and all 27 of her BOFFs, and twice to get Jem'Hadar BOFFs... I've just recycled my entire collection of exotic shields and just about every other possible resource, to get enough ec to get Cara a TR-116-B (I saw one last night, didn't have enough, so spent the day grinding and recycling, went back, to find that the cost had gone up by 100'000 ec >_< )
I believe the Big Sell of a concept like this to Cryptic, would be to make it a C Store deal... That way, they see actual $$s, which makes it worth their while to facilitate, where they couldn't care less if someone spend all week grinding to get enough resources for something, because it puts 0$$s in their pocket...
[Edit to add] I just rolled this lovely...
Why? Here's why...
Homage to one of my favorite, and the most bada55, female characters ever...
I have no intention whatsoever in actually levelling her up, I just wanted her to be in existence...
Oh wait then it wouldn't be a Dead Horse of craziness.
Chars were still categorized in one of three groups, and relative values of races was determined by how well they did in those roles.
My character Tsin'xing
Like I said, I highly doubt I'll be rolling any more Romulan toons, because the ship content isn't there to allow me to play that arc differently (same goes for Klingon) More ships might tempt me, but we're only talking 'tempt', rather than 'definite hook', because those factions themselves, just don't interest me, regardless of the content... Fed faction, on the other hand, as I said, I've been able to rework with various toons, using the different ships and different BOFFs, to vary the interaction to the same storyline, enough to keep it interesting. KDF just can't match that flexibility and choice...
I agree, all they can really do is sell nostalgia, but a way to play into that, would be to give Fed players, the option to C Store alternate faction's ships. It has to be a cash purchase, because that gives Cryptic what they need/want: $$s. Ideally, it should be aimed at all players, but I'm using the example of it Feds being able to buy Klink ships, because that is aiming at the prime demographic of players: Feds... It has to be aimed at where the money is, because without that, Cryptic can't produce new content for any faction...
I'm not saying they should necessarily abandon the other factions entirely, but if they opened up other faction goodies to C Store, it's giving the players what they need to remain interested: Different options, and greater flexibility in their game...
Well I like he idea of teamwork. You could avoid the kill stealing thing by having rewards for such kills based on % damage done.
I respect your concerns. I am going to think on this awhile.
Qapla!
Quick thought. I it is PVP you can still award the loser 'marks' for the engagement, just not as many. For justification you can consider that when you fight someone you gain intelligence about their capabilities, and learn to replicate them sometimes. Still kicking this around.
So make it so that you have to buy Prize Modules from the C-store to activate your prize marks? I would play that game!
It doesn't have to be PVP for me, I was throwing out there as a possible perk. I had no idea that part would be taken the opposite way.
Ok, so earn the marks/tokens (no PVP), and buy the Prize Modules, and then what? Does that sound good? Who likes the sound of that?
Qapla!
OK, this lady delivers on the visual expectation most have for the Orions. For my own officers most of the Orions use the standard KDF uniforms, just to be different, but all of a sudden I am thinking I am maybe missing out on some of the fun. Neither standard KDF uniform, or the space'kini will stop a phaser on max setting (or stun either I bet ...) but yeah! I would put her on a KDF faction recruiting poster!
Qapla!
Though in all likelihood with the success of the Romulan expansion and so far the success of AoY, they'll likely maintain the status quo of micro factions. Which seem to work just fine, on all counts as the "slap in the face" it provides for "Forums PVP" is a an engine that drives all kinds of discussions (like this one)!
In the end, the simple fact we can derive from Olivia's copy pasta is that for six long years even we on the forums have been big time winners with this faction disparity as we've never run out of things to talk about!
I just replayed one of the Breen missions for the deflector to sell. First time I played it, it was in a Constitution Cruiser, and the Breen freeze grenades were a nightmare... This time, it was flying a Valiant Class, and having had more access to the game, I put my main, and the most useful BOFF in those blue Nukara environmental suits, as they have the cold resistance, The other away team, were put in the Dominion environmental suits I hoarded (I have enough for everyone on the away team to have one, if I wanted
That I was playing the same mission, was completely overcome by the fact I was playing it with different toons, and a different ship...
Oh, Mila'di is strictly civilian, I don't want to sully her with KDF shenanigans and being Drake's glove-puppet
And why can't they do it? As you've said several times; Lack of resources... So give them the resources ($$s) and they would then be able to do so...
Lockboxes wouldn't be the way to go for fundraising either, as there's the possibility folks wouldn't want to gamble (as in literally not want to risk wasting money, rather than any moral objection) They would make more selling the ships openly, than they would selling lockbox keys, because the player who knows exactly what they're getting, and exactly what they need to spend to definitely get it, will spend the $$s, but if it becomes a gamble as to what they might get, especially if they've been stung by a less-than-awesome lockbox before...
For example, the last few times I tried to use upgrade tags, despite having the dilithium to cover the use, the system just said 'no upgrade inserted', did nothing to the item I wanted to upgrade, and still took the dilithium! I had wanted to upgrade a load of systems and components, but no way am I spending the time grinding to get the dilithium, to use in a process which has lately been more likely to fail than to succeed...
All it would take is a few crappy lockbox 'wins', and the casual player is likely to give up... Allow them to just make the purchase, and they're going to do so
And that can sometimes be the embodiment of that old "change is as good as a vacation" concept; the game can feel completely different depending on how one plays - logical and pragmatic Vulcan, arguative Tellerite, an Orion Nausicaan or Ferengi whose focus is more on what they can gain from situations, an honorable Klingon or a ruthless one, a Romulan freedom fighter or one looking for revenge...
Even in the same race, there can be a difference between an Earth Human (idealistic, outgoing, adventurous), a human from Sigma Iotia II (complete with 'Formal' gangster suit when he's making 'offers they can't refuse'), or a 'Mirror Terran' Human (cruel, cunning, self-serving).
Different attitudes, different answers and actions, different feel to the game.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
FOR ME! Maintain the fiction for me! By Kahless the unforgettable I will testify that playing the KDF faction was the decider for me to even try this game. I like the Fed options as well, but c'mon. What next? Gahg out of a box, just add water?!
MATLZ: Impressive. ...They can make planets.
KRUGE: Oh yes, ...new cities, homes in the country, ...your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming. ...Station!
No disrespect intended, but while I am for some cross faction content, I am not for elimination of the line between them.
Qapla!
Well, like I said, no disrespect intended. If they eliminate the line, they better respect the Empire as they do it.
Qapla!
Also player retention is about giving existing players fun stuff to do. New fleet holding? got it. yet another CC? Enh, it's something to do. Recruit events give people reasons to make more characters. And of course there's new missions.
My character Tsin'xing
KDF has an interesting variety of options??
How long is a piece of string?
And for those not in a fleet? I don't plan on ever joining a fleet, because I play the game to play the game my way, with my characters, looking the way I want, doing what I want, and using my resources as I want, rather than paying them into a group fund... Don't get me wrong, fleets might offer some great things, but as I was trying to point out to patrickngo with regards playing KDF: If someone doesn't want to do it, then they're simply not going to do it, regardless of perks or content... By opening things up to all players, (ie more stuff for the Feds ;p ) Cryptic is increasing the offers to its primary market, which means more $$s for them, which is what they need/want. By hiding things behind faction/fleet walls, they're denying themselves, the potential sales to those folks who would buy, but who don't want to engage with that faction/fleet...
Equally, it's hard to be an Orion smooth talker, when the game offers one choice of action and dialogue
Of course, I gladly contribute to the fleet's holdings, but because I want the fleet gear that unlocks that way, and I need Fleet Credits to buy it.