your premise falls short when you realize a few things.
2) Everyone does have a chance to get one, you are correct on the face of it but still I won't say chances of getting one are as equal. You could crack one first pack I could go through hundreds and never see it that's some BS and why the C-store is far better.
This is why I commented in another thread that the RNG in STO has never been our friend. Anybody else remember the STF special snowflake drops?
There are certain things that players want to have a guaranteed ability to get. We certainly understand why there might be a limitation on alien and alternate universe lockbox starships. But faction-specific T6 ships that will certainly be in high demand? Yes, the C-Store would have been better for US in the long run.
3) The company does earn money.. short term, but once this very limited event is over what of it than? Guaranteed long run they could make more money dropping it in the C-store
There's no reason why they can't offer it in future promo packs. But as with other promo ships, I expect them to retire them at some point. These ships shouldn't get retired. I would be open to converting them to Lobi store ships.
4) Swarms of Connies breaking immersion with TOS ships. We can already do this with the Persaus, Gemini, and Ranger. Infact if the temporal mechanics where better this very well might of happened. You say, but do we see swarms of them? No but again nothing is stopping it other than people not wanting to fly the ships. I see a healthy amount of Rangers and it hasnt ruined the game more than all the other random ships we see flying around. Or Klingons and Feddies and Roms teaming up, So i don't really see the issue
My 23rd Century captain flies his TOS-skinned temporal starships pretty much exclusively at the moment. And from my point of view, the molecular reconstruction mechanic is awesome.
Immersion is out-the-window at this point. All I can control is how my own characters present themselves and my immersion is only consistent in certain limited contexts. In my head, there are already hundreds of temporal agents running around ESD wearing uniforms and flying ships from all sorts of timelines. I don't worry about the logical inconsistencies; there are too many of them to count.
your premise falls short when you realize a few things.
1) Rarity is only gated by hitting the drop chance number, There is no actual limit to how many of these Connies could be pulled during the event. Realisitically that will make the ship rare but nothing stops someone from dropping ungodly amounts of money and cracking up thousands of t6 Connies, its just a matter of enough money being pumped into the event to increase the amount of Connies we see flying much like the current Kelvin Connie vs T'larus or Dx4s.
2) Everyone does have a chance to get one, you are correct on the face of it but still I won't say chances of getting one are as equal. You could crack one first pack I could go through hundreds and never see it that's some BS and why the C-store is far better.
3) The company does earn money.. short term, but once this very limited event is over what of it than? Guaranteed long run they could make more money dropping it in the C-store
4) Swarms of Connies breaking immersion with TOS ships. We can already do this with the Persaus, Gemini, and Ranger. Infact if the temporal mechanics where better this very well might of happened. You say, but do we see swarms of them? No but again nothing is stopping it other than people not wanting to fly the ships. I see a healthy amount of Rangers and it hasnt ruined the game more than all the other random ships we see flying around. Or Klingons and Feddies and Roms teaming up, So i don't really see the issue
I myself dont want a T6 Connie, but I from the standpoint of someone that's wanted a Rom Carrier for a long time understand the frustrations of players that do in seeing it slapped in a random pack vs put in the C-store.. Thankfully the ship I want will continue to be around vs the Connie after the promotion (though it could see repeat promotions)
Right, if someone had unlimited money, he could eventually get unlimited ships, and everyone in the game could have two.
But we also know that it isnt going to happen. There are at the end of the day practical considerations, we have to be bound by real things, and ultimately narrow our focus to the real world, not an endless parade of what-ifs.
For the second part, I never said a thing about everyone having the same chance. What I've said more than once is that of the two options, one where its expensive and in the c-store, and one where its the result of inexpensive RNG rolls, the second option is better because it gives people some chance rather than no chance. That's the full extent of my point.
Third, I don't accept your guarantee. If you have evidence, please show it. If not, how on earth can you make such a guarantee? I would submit that there are people who know the truth of it, and they work for Cryptic Studios and PWE, and they have access to accurate information that they can use to make decisions. We know what they've decided, and we can be pretty certain of their motives. Given this, we have no good reason to believe that what you say is true.
Fourth, the best analogy I can make is with a hypothetical game where you battle WW2 ships against each other. Would it make much sense for them to have old wooden age-of-sail ships of the line zooming around sinking the battleships? I don't think it would. Granted, many people might like the age of sail. I know I do. Nevertheless, it wouldn't be so good in a ww2 game.
C store value would be 3000 zen that's the price of 3 bundles as of now. What are your chances of netting a Connie in 3 bundles? Dil to Zen exists its possible to buy a Connie without actually spending Zen. And demonstrably C-store ships have always been more plentiful than lockbox or bundle only ships meaning more people do actually obtain these ships. So your opinion that it's better for the player seems pretty counter to the actuality.
EDIT: Hell if the fact that if having A chance at a R&D pack vs No chance in the C store was a "better option" for players that want a T6 Connie than your premise that the Connie needs to be rare states that the Connie needs to be a C-store option! Also how is this a benefit to the player when you get ONE of the ship vs a C-store purchase which unlocks on your account?
My gaurantee is simple, Chance of winning X for a limited time when you buy Y will always net you less money than simply selling X for as long as your game is alive. Again look at C-store ships.. pretty plentiful and healthy sales. People still go out and buy C-store ships that have been out, can't go back out and buy a T6 Connie after this promo ends. If it's cryptics decision to only sell it this way than it's a short sighted sales goal. It will help but in the long run (if there is one) less money will be made. My opinion is that this has something more to do with CBS.
Fourth again your analogy falls apart because we already have TOS ships flying around. So your WW2 game already has Age of Sail ships sinking Battleships and somehow hasn't fallen apart or created riots. (though I'd equate it more the WW1 dreadnoughts)
EDIT AGAIN: And we also have what 31st century ships now? Be like putting modern day cruise missile platforms in your ww2 game but.. those are C store purchasable.. dont see the masses throwing up their arms
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field. On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it.
I disagree. In my opinion, if you have a chance to get it, especially one with a barrier to entry as low as a single promo pack, then it's fair to say that everyone has a chance to get it.
At the very minimum, everyone has a 1/100 chance of getting the ship. That's good enough for me.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
This is an argument with 3 prongs, 3 premises. If we are going to accept premise 1, that its good to have rare and desirable stuff, then we have to ask, "how can the ship be rare and desirable?"
Either it can be difficult to obtain based on an RNG mechanic, or difficult to obtain because of a very high price.
One of the options is fair to everyone, since everyone has a chance, the other option isn't.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
Well, we disagree about what 'fair' means. Having it exclusively available to people able to pay 150$ to get zen, or to grind that large quantity out, and completely unavailable to anyone else isn't fair to me. It's one of the premises I listed in the OP.
Also please bear in mind, the ship is available at a fixed price, because the promo mechanic means that people can trade them with each other, something that isn't possible with c-store ships. People who are capable of making benefit/cost analyses can recognize this quite easily.
But, in addition to this fixed price, there is another means to get one. You can get one by chance, and everyone can get a chance, not just that small group willing or able to pay or grind the large sum mentioned before.
Sale over the exchange is far from a fixed price, as exchange flippers can surely testify to. Since Cryptic does not maintain a monopoly over the cost of acquisition on the exchange, the price there will be highly variable. Assuming even the bare minimum of 750m EC per ship, this means that at exchange sales of 10mil per promo pack, a player would have to buy over 15 4-packs, with a cost of over 15000 zen. Granted these numbers are placeholders, but I think it illustrates my point without making wild assertions: The fact that they can be traded is of little consequence because it is still prohibitively expensive in that case. In fact, given the rarity and desirability of the pack, it will likely have an inflated price, incurring brutal costs than if they were simply sold via the C-Store.
The alternate means to acquire a pack is even more dreary. Even if players get a chance to receive it, the players have to expend resources for each chance they get. However, because of the prohibitively low chance, players who won't spend resources an order of magnitude or two above that needed for a single pack are highly disadvantaged. Even if such a player were to acquire the pack, they would be the exception rather than the rule, which may be fair from a statistical standpoint but not an economic one. In all cases, if they don't acquire the ship, then they will have a net loss, which is more undesirable than doing nothing at all and quite unfair compared to the C-Store if all the player wanted was to acquire the ship. At this point, I would even suggest that buying keys now out of sale and using them on the infinity box would provide better outcomes (not a good idea, but still better).
In any MMO, people who put in more time and effort have an advantage over people who don't. It's part of what an MMO is, a progress-based game.
I would object that you really have a problem with the first premise, not the second one. You seem to disagree that its good if there are rare and desirable things.
For things to be rare and desirable, it must be true that people want them, but also that not everyone will get one. This is what you're objecting to in the second part of your post.
As for the exchange and whether it ever represents a fixed price, it does. Its not at all uncommon for the market to settle on a price for an item. Moreover, if you can find an item for sale on the exchange, it displays the price for it. Clicking buy buys the item at the price.
Rarity by high fixed price is a real thing, so it is in fact possible to disagree with the second premise without discounting the first. Additionally, with rarity comes market instability. See the various other rare items in the game for more information.
Most of the other rare items have very stable markets. Annoraxes, sheshars, bug ships, bulwarks.
Anyway I had thought I'd been clear saying that you can either make a ship rare by making it expensive in the c-store - I'm almost certain I provided some figures about it in the OP - or you could make it rare by having it be a rare drop from an RNG.
Because I think high c-store prices aren't fair to people who for whatever reason cant spend that much real money, I think the RNG is better.
Also, I think the company will make more revenue from the RNG approach than they would if they put it up for 15,000 zen.
It's all right there in the OP I dont see how you missed it?
They're generally not very stable. The exchange has a rather low supply of those with a low demand due to their costliness. Because of this, hoarding and buying have significant effects on the market. Also, you could just look at the exchange.
As for whether it's fair to people who can't pay, it really isn't. Take again my example of 700m ship packs and 10m promo packs. For 7 promo packs, 1/10th the value of the ship, the chances of a player acquiring the ship are 0.99^7=0.93, which is 30% below the expected value. With even 70 promo packs, the chances of a player acquiring the ship are 0.99^70=0.5, which is far below the expected value of 1. Even if promo packs are less unfair to those who have less resources, it is still significantly unfair to players who use chance boxes.
Despite you feeling high C-Store prices are unfair to people who can't pay, it's a common real-life occurrence to deny goods and services to those people. In this case, the denials are made by RNG rather than by outright refusal, but the boxes are still skewed unfairly towards denial, as stated above. Additionally, 13k zen packs are all too common now in STO, and clearly demand is much higher for C-Store T6 TOS ships, so it's very possible Cryptic could have turned a greater profit off putting it up in the C-Store.
Anything's possible, but I get the impression that given all the data they have on their own sales, they do this for a reason, and the reason isn't 'to make less money than we otherwise would.'
And again, I don't know how to stress it enough, but the ships must be very expensive for them to be rare, whether its a lot of zen or a lot of ec. The difference is, if its from an RNG box, and it's tradable, then everyone has a chance to get it. If it's from the c-store, only a very small portion has any chance at all.
As for your thoughts on the prices of those ships, I follow them closely and that hasn't been my experience at all. What I mean is, I do check their prices on the exchange, once every couple of days, at least. And there isnt volatility. Some people who don't know about it don't give STO's economy much credit, it's quite efficient.
You probably just forgot about the exchange prices is all, it's understandable given the much more volatile situation with the dilex. Variations along the lines of 20-40 mil are not uncommon with ships like the JHAS and Annorax, with 10-20 mil fluctuations for lobi ships.
Chances are people will lose effective value as they try to chance their way into acquiring the ship, resulting in net loss regardless of whether they win the ship or not. This is not a good thing.
And again, I don't know how to stress it enough, but the ships must be very expensive for them to be rare, whether its a lot of zen or a lot of ec. The difference is, if its from an RNG box, and it's tradable, then everyone has a chance to get it. If it's from the c-store, only a very small portion has any chance at all.
Okay, I've got to call baloney on this one. You're seriously trying to tell us that everyone has a chance to get something out of an RNG box? That they have less chance of being able to get it if it's on the C-Store?
Completely ignoring the fact, of course, that the RNG boxes can only be opened with zen purchases and that the odds of popping a ship are prohibitive enough that it's going to take a lot of zen to get one. More, in fact, than everyone can afford and certainly more expensive than it would have been in the C-Store in most cases. Also conveniently ignoring that anything worth trading for a promo ship is likely to be equally rare and expensive.
You have a fine career ahead of you as a politician if you can say that with a straight face, especially when you're also arguing that it's a good thing that the ships are rare and expensive.
Which is it? Are they rare and expensive, or does everyone have a chance to get one? It doesn't swing both ways.
There is obviouslyfar less chance of being able to obtain one, at any price, than if it were a direct C-Store purchase. C-Store items can be bought with dilithium on the dilithium exchange, making them available to anyone willing to grind dilithium long enough and accept the current exchange rate for zen.
I'm fine with your argument that the promotion helps to promote the game, even if I am slightly disappointed in the end effect of mercenary marketing tactics. But please drop the BS out of your argumentation. There's nothing pure and noble about how these ships are being marketed. It's just plain business, neither noble or ignoble. Caveat emptor.
stobg2015: lol... So true. When I can pull up in my ship outside ESD and see many various ships from all over the galaxy, and from all factions and even several different alternate timelines/universes, I think it's pretty safe to say that immersion left long ago.
He wants to sell the ship through private channels at first and then on the Exchange after it settles in.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field. On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it.
I disagree. In my opinion, if you have a chance to get it, especially one with a barrier to entry as low as a single promo pack, then it's fair to say that everyone has a chance to get it.
At the very minimum, everyone has a 1/100 chance of getting the ship. That's good enough for me.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
This is an argument with 3 prongs, 3 premises. If we are going to accept premise 1, that its good to have rare and desirable stuff, then we have to ask, "how can the ship be rare and desirable?"
Either it can be difficult to obtain based on an RNG mechanic, or difficult to obtain because of a very high price.
One of the options is fair to everyone, since everyone has a chance, the other option isn't.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
Well, we disagree about what 'fair' means. Having it exclusively available to people able to pay 150$ to get zen, or to grind that large quantity out, and completely unavailable to anyone else isn't fair to me. It's one of the premises I listed in the OP.
Also please bear in mind, the ship is available at a fixed price, because the promo mechanic means that people can trade them with each other, something that isn't possible with c-store ships. People who are capable of making benefit/cost analyses can recognize this quite easily.
But, in addition to this fixed price, there is another means to get one. You can get one by chance, and everyone can get a chance, not just that small group willing or able to pay or grind the large sum mentioned before.
Sale over the exchange is far from a fixed price, as exchange flippers can surely testify to. Since Cryptic does not maintain a monopoly over the cost of acquisition on the exchange, the price there will be highly variable. Assuming even the bare minimum of 750m EC per ship, this means that at exchange sales of 10mil per promo pack, a player would have to buy over 15 4-packs, with a cost of over 15000 zen. Granted these numbers are placeholders, but I think it illustrates my point without making wild assertions: The fact that they can be traded is of little consequence because it is still prohibitively expensive in that case. In fact, given the rarity and desirability of the pack, it will likely have an inflated price, incurring brutal costs than if they were simply sold via the C-Store.
The alternate means to acquire a pack is even more dreary. Even if players get a chance to receive it, the players have to expend resources for each chance they get. However, because of the prohibitively low chance, players who won't spend resources an order of magnitude or two above that needed for a single pack are highly disadvantaged. Even if such a player were to acquire the pack, they would be the exception rather than the rule, which may be fair from a statistical standpoint but not an economic one. In all cases, if they don't acquire the ship, then they will have a net loss, which is more undesirable than doing nothing at all and quite unfair compared to the C-Store if all the player wanted was to acquire the ship. At this point, I would even suggest that buying keys now out of sale and using them on the infinity box would provide better outcomes (not a good idea, but still better).
In any MMO, people who put in more time and effort have an advantage over people who don't. It's part of what an MMO is, a progress-based game.
I would object that you really have a problem with the first premise, not the second one. You seem to disagree that its good if there are rare and desirable things.
For things to be rare and desirable, it must be true that people want them, but also that not everyone will get one. This is what you're objecting to in the second part of your post.
As for the exchange and whether it ever represents a fixed price, it does. Its not at all uncommon for the market to settle on a price for an item. Moreover, if you can find an item for sale on the exchange, it displays the price for it. Clicking buy buys the item at the price.
Rarity by high fixed price is a real thing, so it is in fact possible to disagree with the second premise without discounting the first. Additionally, with rarity comes market instability. See the various other rare items in the game for more information.
Most of the other rare items have very stable markets. Annoraxes, sheshars, bug ships, bulwarks.
Anyway I had thought I'd been clear saying that you can either make a ship rare by making it expensive in the c-store - I'm almost certain I provided some figures about it in the OP - or you could make it rare by having it be a rare drop from an RNG.
Because I think high c-store prices aren't fair to people who for whatever reason cant spend that much real money, I think the RNG is better.
Also, I think the company will make more revenue from the RNG approach than they would if they put it up for 15,000 zen.
It's all right there in the OP I dont see how you missed it?
They're generally not very stable. The exchange has a rather low supply of those with a low demand due to their costliness. Because of this, hoarding and buying have significant effects on the market. Also, you could just look at the exchange.
As for whether it's fair to people who can't pay, it really isn't. Take again my example of 700m ship packs and 10m promo packs. For 7 promo packs, 1/10th the value of the ship, the chances of a player acquiring the ship are 0.99^7=0.93, which is 30% below the expected value. With even 70 promo packs, the chances of a player acquiring the ship are 0.99^70=0.5, which is far below the expected value of 1. Even if promo packs are less unfair to those who have less resources, it is still significantly unfair to players who use chance boxes.
Despite you feeling high C-Store prices are unfair to people who can't pay, it's a common real-life occurrence to deny goods and services to those people. In this case, the denials are made by RNG rather than by outright refusal, but the boxes are still skewed unfairly towards denial, as stated above. Additionally, 13k zen packs are all too common now in STO, and clearly demand is much higher for C-Store T6 TOS ships, so it's very possible Cryptic could have turned a greater profit off putting it up in the C-Store.
Anything's possible, but I get the impression that given all the data they have on their own sales, they do this for a reason, and the reason isn't 'to make less money than we otherwise would.'
And again, I don't know how to stress it enough, but the ships must be very expensive for them to be rare, whether its a lot of zen or a lot of ec. The difference is, if its from an RNG box, and it's tradable, then everyone has a chance to get it. If it's from the c-store, only a very small portion has any chance at all.
Depends Druk.
Are they looking for a quick infusion of cash, or long term profits ?
And if we were to compare sales of the Vesta and Oddy packs in the CStore (from release day to now) to say the Annorax Promo, would it be true that the Annorax generated far more profit then the Oddy or Vesta packs ?
I actually think they've made more money on the popular CStore ships over time. (But this is just an assumption because I have no hard numbers).
Also, you can't say CStore ships are less attainable, people could trade Dil for Zen if they have no RL money to spend.
Its pretty much the same. And for some 30$ on a video game ship is a lot of money.
Its all relative. But its hard to compare with no hard data. Id also say there's a better chance for someone to get a 30$ cstore ship by trading dil for Z, then buying say 80 keys to sell to buy a ship off the exchange.
It's simple math. But you have a point on the rarity aspect.
Personally I lean toward promos being a quick cash infusion for the company, while (Popular/highly desirable) cstore ships keep a steady influx of cash coming in. Less peak and valley, if you will.
I guess both are good for the company. But I'd love to see some numbers. Though I doubt we ever will, that's probably highly classified information that they'd never share.
Quick infusion of cash for the end of the Fiscal Quarter.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I'd just like to point out that point #2 in Druk's list is slightly flawed in that its explanation assumes any ship not available to all is inherently a superior ship ("pay2win"). Being unfair should be reason enough in and of itself; whether or not the ship is mechanically better than others is irrelevant.
I still think an event skin for C-Store ships was a better idea for exclusivity and novelty but whatever, prize box has its perks to be sure.
All this bandying about with this 15k Zen C-Store price is a ridiculous strawman argument. The EXPANSION Packs off-sale price is that nunber. Cryptic would never place a single Character Ship in the C-Store priced like this.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Support the movement! Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are. Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
All this bandying about with this 15k Zen C-Store price is a ridiculous strawman argument. The EXPANSION Packs off-sale price is that nunber. Cryptic would never place a single Character Ship in the C-Store priced like this.
Right, they've never tried to make a c-store ship be rare before, they're all super common.
If you mean by putting a limited time one-chance window of opportunity only ship for Zen in the C-Store, than yes. You worded that response a little awkward.
Support the movement! Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are. Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And finally I draw your attention to the title of this thread. Logically speaking, It is best that prize ships are RNG. It's not noble or pure, but it is logical. My endeavor is to help spur people to act like a Vulcan!
Aareful with that - A Vulcan might deem the whole idea of an MMO with purchasable ships illogical. It merely serves to need emotional needs, and one shouldn't give into such things. At least not as a Vulcan.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Am I the only one who isn't interested in these ships, even if they C-Store ships?
TOS was okay for the time period, but honestly I prefer the TNG-Voyager-DS9 era, or as I call it the Golden Age of Star Trek vs. TOS which was the Bronze Age.
Am I the only one who isn't interested in these ships, even if they C-Store ships?
TOS was okay for the time period, but honestly I prefer the TNG-Voyager-DS9 era, or as I call it the Golden Age of Star Trek vs. TOS which was the Bronze Age.
The difference is, if its from an RNG box, and it's tradable, then everyone has a chance to get it. If it's from the c-store, only a very small portion has any chance at all.
I must say, your stance is quite... convincing, yet quite "contradictory". Then I hatched this here "logic train"...
The use of "tradable" means that a "fixed price" is assigned to procurement. As of this point, the only question becomes "what currency" must be procured to reach the "fixed price"?
C-store ships are attained by a currency that's primarily only in Cryptic's hand - Zen. Exchange-tradable ships are attained by a currency that's primarily controlled through the playerbase's hands - EC. And thinking about it, at this point, there's seemingly little difference between grinding out $150 of Zen or $150 of EC.
But then it hit me. Zen to EC (or Dil -> EC, Lobi -> EC, etc.) exchange rates aren't fixed. The "smart" Ferengi knows how to create, say, 660 mil EC (which is the "going rate" of $150 in Zen converted to EC via key sales) at far less than $150 USD's worth of input. Therefore, the "smart" Ferengi's already "ahead of the game" - even more so if they're somehow converting their knowledges of what to buy "on the cheap" to generate stuffs that sell "on the expensive".
Otherwise known as the epic "buy low, sell high" method of profit generation...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
With the phenomenal t6-TOS promo coming out, I think its important that people take a moment to think about *why* things like this have to come from RNG packs. It isn't venality on the part of the developers, there is a logical reason for why it is best for players and the community that it works this way.
To not run afoul of the no-necro rule, I post a new thread rather than bump an old one. It is what it is!
There are three good outcomes to look for with prize ships in STO.
1) The prize ships are rare and desirable. -If nothing is rare and desirable, the game is tepid and boring.
2) Everyone has a chance to get one. -If not everyone has a chance to get one, it is unfair, and pay2win.
3) The company earns revenue and profit. -This is absolutely necessary for the game to continue being run. Business has to earn profit.
-
If we make them available to anyone who wants one at a fixed price in the c-store, but that price is low, then they are no longer rare and desirable, and we sacrifice outcome 1.
If you really think that anyone would want the Constitution, D7 or T'Liss because they are rare you have no idea what game you are playing.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Comments
This is why I commented in another thread that the RNG in STO has never been our friend. Anybody else remember the STF special snowflake drops?
There are certain things that players want to have a guaranteed ability to get. We certainly understand why there might be a limitation on alien and alternate universe lockbox starships. But faction-specific T6 ships that will certainly be in high demand? Yes, the C-Store would have been better for US in the long run.
There's no reason why they can't offer it in future promo packs. But as with other promo ships, I expect them to retire them at some point. These ships shouldn't get retired. I would be open to converting them to Lobi store ships.
My 23rd Century captain flies his TOS-skinned temporal starships pretty much exclusively at the moment. And from my point of view, the molecular reconstruction mechanic is awesome.
Immersion is out-the-window at this point. All I can control is how my own characters present themselves and my immersion is only consistent in certain limited contexts. In my head, there are already hundreds of temporal agents running around ESD wearing uniforms and flying ships from all sorts of timelines. I don't worry about the logical inconsistencies; there are too many of them to count.
C store value would be 3000 zen that's the price of 3 bundles as of now. What are your chances of netting a Connie in 3 bundles? Dil to Zen exists its possible to buy a Connie without actually spending Zen. And demonstrably C-store ships have always been more plentiful than lockbox or bundle only ships meaning more people do actually obtain these ships. So your opinion that it's better for the player seems pretty counter to the actuality.
EDIT: Hell if the fact that if having A chance at a R&D pack vs No chance in the C store was a "better option" for players that want a T6 Connie than your premise that the Connie needs to be rare states that the Connie needs to be a C-store option! Also how is this a benefit to the player when you get ONE of the ship vs a C-store purchase which unlocks on your account?
My gaurantee is simple, Chance of winning X for a limited time when you buy Y will always net you less money than simply selling X for as long as your game is alive. Again look at C-store ships.. pretty plentiful and healthy sales. People still go out and buy C-store ships that have been out, can't go back out and buy a T6 Connie after this promo ends. If it's cryptics decision to only sell it this way than it's a short sighted sales goal. It will help but in the long run (if there is one) less money will be made. My opinion is that this has something more to do with CBS.
Fourth again your analogy falls apart because we already have TOS ships flying around. So your WW2 game already has Age of Sail ships sinking Battleships and somehow hasn't fallen apart or created riots. (though I'd equate it more the WW1 dreadnoughts)
EDIT AGAIN: And we also have what 31st century ships now? Be like putting modern day cruise missile platforms in your ww2 game but.. those are C store purchasable.. dont see the masses throwing up their arms
You probably just forgot about the exchange prices is all, it's understandable given the much more volatile situation with the dilex. Variations along the lines of 20-40 mil are not uncommon with ships like the JHAS and Annorax, with 10-20 mil fluctuations for lobi ships.
Chances are people will lose effective value as they try to chance their way into acquiring the ship, resulting in net loss regardless of whether they win the ship or not. This is not a good thing.
Okay, I've got to call baloney on this one. You're seriously trying to tell us that everyone has a chance to get something out of an RNG box? That they have less chance of being able to get it if it's on the C-Store?
Completely ignoring the fact, of course, that the RNG boxes can only be opened with zen purchases and that the odds of popping a ship are prohibitive enough that it's going to take a lot of zen to get one. More, in fact, than everyone can afford and certainly more expensive than it would have been in the C-Store in most cases. Also conveniently ignoring that anything worth trading for a promo ship is likely to be equally rare and expensive.
You have a fine career ahead of you as a politician if you can say that with a straight face, especially when you're also arguing that it's a good thing that the ships are rare and expensive.
Which is it? Are they rare and expensive, or does everyone have a chance to get one? It doesn't swing both ways.
There is obviously far less chance of being able to obtain one, at any price, than if it were a direct C-Store purchase. C-Store items can be bought with dilithium on the dilithium exchange, making them available to anyone willing to grind dilithium long enough and accept the current exchange rate for zen.
I'm fine with your argument that the promotion helps to promote the game, even if I am slightly disappointed in the end effect of mercenary marketing tactics. But please drop the BS out of your argumentation. There's nothing pure and noble about how these ships are being marketed. It's just plain business, neither noble or ignoble. Caveat emptor.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Depends Druk.
Are they looking for a quick infusion of cash, or long term profits ?
And if we were to compare sales of the Vesta and Oddy packs in the CStore (from release day to now) to say the Annorax Promo, would it be true that the Annorax generated far more profit then the Oddy or Vesta packs ?
I actually think they've made more money on the popular CStore ships over time. (But this is just an assumption because I have no hard numbers).
Also, you can't say CStore ships are less attainable, people could trade Dil for Zen if they have no RL money to spend.
Its pretty much the same. And for some 30$ on a video game ship is a lot of money.
Its all relative. But its hard to compare with no hard data. Id also say there's a better chance for someone to get a 30$ cstore ship by trading dil for Z, then buying say 80 keys to sell to buy a ship off the exchange.
It's simple math. But you have a point on the rarity aspect.
Personally I lean toward promos being a quick cash infusion for the company, while (Popular/highly desirable) cstore ships keep a steady influx of cash coming in. Less peak and valley, if you will.
I guess both are good for the company. But I'd love to see some numbers. Though I doubt we ever will, that's probably highly classified information that they'd never share.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I still think an event skin for C-Store ships was a better idea for exclusivity and novelty but whatever, prize box has its perks to be sure.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Good point minns.
That's probably more valuable to them (at certain points in the year) then long term profitability.
Aren't economics fun ? So much to consider.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Pretty much sums all this up.
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you mean by putting a limited time one-chance window of opportunity only ship for Zen in the C-Store, than yes. You worded that response a little awkward.
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
TOS was okay for the time period, but honestly I prefer the TNG-Voyager-DS9 era, or as I call it the Golden Age of Star Trek vs. TOS which was the Bronze Age.
Triggered
lol
"Congratulations Star Trek! Here's a CHANCE to commemorate the hallmark!"
I must say, your stance is quite... convincing, yet quite "contradictory". Then I hatched this here "logic train"...
The use of "tradable" means that a "fixed price" is assigned to procurement. As of this point, the only question becomes "what currency" must be procured to reach the "fixed price"?
C-store ships are attained by a currency that's primarily only in Cryptic's hand - Zen. Exchange-tradable ships are attained by a currency that's primarily controlled through the playerbase's hands - EC. And thinking about it, at this point, there's seemingly little difference between grinding out $150 of Zen or $150 of EC.
But then it hit me. Zen to EC (or Dil -> EC, Lobi -> EC, etc.) exchange rates aren't fixed. The "smart" Ferengi knows how to create, say, 660 mil EC (which is the "going rate" of $150 in Zen converted to EC via key sales) at far less than $150 USD's worth of input. Therefore, the "smart" Ferengi's already "ahead of the game" - even more so if they're somehow converting their knowledges of what to buy "on the cheap" to generate stuffs that sell "on the expensive".
Otherwise known as the epic "buy low, sell high" method of profit generation...
"when I have little reason to play the economy".
Well played my friend. Well played.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
If you really think that anyone would want the Constitution, D7 or T'Liss because they are rare you have no idea what game you are playing.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.