"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field.
On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it. Those that have the money to spend will have an obviously better chance of getting the ship. That, or they have to be really good at generating EC in game and hope someone will sell them one.
I'm not complaining or crying over it.. in fact, I get it. I understand how these things work and why they're necessary. I don't like it, but I accept it. Even though I accept it, I'm not going to insult everyones intelligence and try and pretend it's fair for everyone, because it's clearly not.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
And that is why we won't agree on this topic, because we disagree here. It's both things combined, not just one. Giving everyone the same, very small chance, does not create an equality. It clearly gives a sizable advantage to someone who can afford to purchase multiple chances. Now, if everyone had the same chance, and everyone was limited to 3 tries, then your theory of equality is correct. You cannot simply dismiss the quantitative side of the equation, that doesn't work.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
The first thing here is to understand that there is no situation outside of 'free for everyone' that gives every single person the same exact chance. That's not the issue, it's about creating the most opportunity for the vast majority. A fixed price is obviously the most balanced provided that price is within reason. There will always be someone who can't afford the price, and that situation will occur in any solution outside of 'here, everyone have one for free.'
I'm not worried about trying to find a solution that gives everyone the exact same chance because I know that's impossible. But there are other, more balanced solutions outside of just making something so expensive that most people can't afford it. There is a line between making something 'rare' and putting it completely out of reach of the average player.
I understand your side of the argument, I just disagree with the fundamental principals on which your argument is based.
The problem with this is that there are many more ships that are desireable and can be made rare. A T6 Sovereign for example, why not putting them in a prize box as well? All your points remain valid. And after that a T6 Nova perhaps? Or a T6 Nebula, T6 Vor'cha?
Your points are entirely arbitrary since they apply to every popular ship out there.
Here's how I see it. They need to finance their console port who's success is anything but sure. Or in other words, they probably won't use most of the money made out of this T6 connie promotion to create new actual content.
Sovereign is a faction service ship like all the rest in the c-store. It's a t5 ship that will get the t6 treatment same as all the other ones. It's symmetry, each one treated exactly the same.
An endgame version of a starter ship that is made by the magic of time travel to be somehow a ship of the line is not a normal thing. It's broken symmetry. It's probably the most exotic ship they've ever put into sto.
Where's the magic line then? They can put temporal T6 Constitutions, Mirandas, Ambassadors, Stargazers and Oberths in prize boxes but not ships that already got their T5 version?
The Excelsior isn't much younger than the original Constitution class but she got her T6 c-store version nonetheless.
I'm not trying to be overly dramatic here. I just fear that more faction ships will have their T6 version put into an expensive prize box. And once more, Cryptic would be able to calm everybody down by simply stating that they had to do it this way and that they don't intend to put anymore faction ships into promotional prize boxes.
this is why i barely login to sto and swtor anymore,ftp has just messed up the whole mmorpg dynamic.
in the old days you paid your sub and you had access to EVERYTHING,for some reps,drops or mounts you had to really had to make an effort (anyone remember the ol' school grind for Reins of the Winterspring Frostsaber,yeah i went thru that and im damn proud),now on top of the sub you need to spend real money...that is why im not supporting either of these games.
sad that the gaming comunity is going along for the ride,taking shortcuts and just buying themselves content when it should be freaking earned not bought.
p.s sorry my bad,i put ships in the same bag as content when they barely qualify as glorified mounts...
I'm not upset about this promotion in any way. In fact I'm glad that the original Enterprise has finally been added to the game. But I don't agree with this argument (depending - see below).
Your price estimate is in the ballpark at 15,000 zen or around 900k EC or 6 million dil. But putting it in a lottery box does not make it any more or less possible for people to get it unless you are saying you could open 1 or 2 boxes and get it. If that's the argument then I'll stop right there and not waste any more time. Otherwise there's no difference whether they put the pricetag at 15,000 zen or a billion EC on the exchange, or converting 6 million dil to zen to buy it from the store if it's there and bound. It is equally easy or difficult to obtain.
Maybe you are saying it's better for players because they have plenty of ec but no dil and need it to be on the exchange to buy it? This is something I can't relate to but it may be a valid point.
However, the reason it is put in the lottery is because:
a. some people have absolutely bs amount of money and happily spend thousands on a game - in many cases way more than the 15,000 zen price estimate/market value. and
b. some people who don't have bs amounts of money have gambling addictions. I don't think exploiting such people would be something Jean-Luc would do. The rest of these argurment are interesting and nice, but this is the real reason. And I don't find it very pretty.
NOW, if you're saying that the zen store price would be 25,000 then okay, yes I agree with you, it is more fair/egalitarian to put it in the lottery. Now we are talking 10 million refined or 1.5 billion ec. That's a solid year of refining the cap on 4 characters for one item.
It remains appalling to me, however, that anyone would spend $250 on a single optional ship in a game.
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As you said in your OP, it's the fairest way to do it for everyone involved, including the company that runs the server we all enjoy playing on without having to pay a subscription for.
It may be good for business that specialty items are given out by the RNG at a specified percentage level, but for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing, this because a major issue. At some point, Cryptic/PWE will have to come up with a better way for players who spend that amount of money to obtain these special ships, or these players will cease spending money on the game and leave. There really needs to be a monetary threshold that a player can meet for the ship to be dropped after X amount of attempts. Most likely it would be high, but it needs to exists so that these players who spend that amount of money are compensated.
Did you actually just use the phrase: "...for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing..."(SIC)
Really?
You received whatever it is that you paid those "thousands of dollars" for. There's nothing that ever stated - implicitly or explicitly - that you were entitled to anything beyond that purchase, so you are not entitled to anything, so people should stop expecting it or asking for anything more.
I would think that Cryptic/PWE out of gratitude for spending X (a very high amount) amount of dollars on the game, specifically when it comes to special promotions, that the promo item would be available to the purchaser at least once. Yes, it is true that people are technically buying the R&D packs or what ever the typical item the promo is attached to and that is what they are getting in addition to whatever is typically attached to the item, but a "Thank You" RNG win for those players who purchase high amounts of the product would leave a more positive experience that the player would be more likely inclined to participate in the future rather than closing her/his wallet and walking away. After all, it is paying players that keep this game afloat and thriving.
Rare and desirable are not linked traits. I have found many of the C-store ships desirable and many of the rare ships to not be desirable.
Now after 6yrs of "I want a max level Connie!" Cryptic has put a desired ship in a rare slot just because it's desired in the hope to make more profit. I assume they've done the math and calculated that they will get more from these RNG-spawned ships than putting them in the C-store.
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field. On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it.
I disagree. In my opinion, if you have a chance to get it, especially one with a barrier to entry as low as a single promo pack, then it's fair to say that everyone has a chance to get it.
At the very minimum, everyone has a 1/100 chance of getting the ship. That's good enough for me.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
This is an argument with 3 prongs, 3 premises. If we are going to accept premise 1, that its good to have rare and desirable stuff, then we have to ask, "how can the ship be rare and desirable?"
Either it can be difficult to obtain based on an RNG mechanic, or difficult to obtain because of a very high price.
One of the options is fair to everyone, since everyone has a chance, the other option isn't.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
It may be good for business that specialty items are given out by the RNG at a specified percentage level, but for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing, this because a major issue. At some point, Cryptic/PWE will have to come up with a better way for players who spend that amount of money to obtain these special ships, or these players will cease spending money on the game and leave. There really needs to be a monetary threshold that a player can meet for the ship to be dropped after X amount of attempts. Most likely it would be high, but it needs to exists so that these players who spend that amount of money are compensated.
Did you actually just use the phrase: "...for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing..."(SIC)
Really?
You received whatever it is that you paid those "thousands of dollars" for. There's nothing that ever stated - implicitly or explicitly - that you were entitled to anything beyond that purchase, so you are not entitled to anything, so people should stop expecting it or asking for anything more.
I would think that Cryptic/PWE out of gratitude for spending X (a very high amount) amount of dollars on the game, specifically when it comes to special promotions, that the promo item would be available to the purchaser at least once. Yes, it is true that people are technically buying the R&D packs or what ever the typical item the promo is attached to and that is what they are getting in addition to whatever is typically attached to the item, but a "Thank You" RNG win for those players who purchase high amounts of the product would leave a more positive experience that the player would be more likely inclined to participate in the future rather than closing her/his wallet and walking away. After all, it is paying players that keep this game afloat and thriving.
I think that idea sets a dangerous precedent and would in effect dismantle the equal opportunity of players to acquire one of those "rare and desirable" items Druk described. See, I could buy hundreds of R/D packs and not get a single ship (though the odds are around 1/100). I could also buy just one pack and win a ship on my first try. Granted, those who pump enough cash/ec/etc have a better chance of getting the desired item than someone who opens a single pack, but there are cases of people spending 2-3k on kelvin lockboxes and not receiving a single T6 ship.
There should absolutely not be any consolation prize for those who choose willingly to spend money on promos/lockboxes. "Hey, you spent 500 dollars or more on r/d packs and didn't receive a single T6 ship, here's a chance to get one anyway" undermines the fairness of the system, formalizing a tiered player community of have/have nots.
If they really want a ship THAT bad, funnel money not into r/d packs, but into high-value items to sell for ec, allowing them to purchase the ship on the exchange. They have a 100% success rate. Ultimately, players choose where their money goes, and the onus is on them to make "wise" decisions -- they can gamble on promo packs, or they can wait a few more days/weeks/whatever to earn enough ec to buy the ship.
This game is F2P, so a formal tier of have/have nots already exists. In fact, this was already done with the T6 Nagus so we really can't expect what you say to be accurate.
Remember the interests of the Exchange Mega-Sellers. That is behind that type of analysis. Fortunes are to be made by those. Look at the analysis from that motivating factor.
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'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It may be good for business that specialty items are given out by the RNG at a specified percentage level, but for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing, this because a major issue. At some point, Cryptic/PWE will have to come up with a better way for players who spend that amount of money to obtain these special ships, or these players will cease spending money on the game and leave. There really needs to be a monetary threshold that a player can meet for the ship to be dropped after X amount of attempts. Most likely it would be high, but it needs to exists so that these players who spend that amount of money are compensated.
Did you actually just use the phrase: "...for those players who spend thousands of dollars and receiving nothing..."(SIC)
Really?
You received whatever it is that you paid those "thousands of dollars" for. There's nothing that ever stated - implicitly or explicitly - that you were entitled to anything beyond that purchase, so you are not entitled to anything, so people should stop expecting it or asking for anything more.
I would think that Cryptic/PWE out of gratitude for spending X (a very high amount) amount of dollars on the game, specifically when it comes to special promotions, that the promo item would be available to the purchaser at least once. Yes, it is true that people are technically buying the R&D packs or what ever the typical item the promo is attached to and that is what they are getting in addition to whatever is typically attached to the item, but a "Thank You" RNG win for those players who purchase high amounts of the product would leave a more positive experience that the player would be more likely inclined to participate in the future rather than closing her/his wallet and walking away. After all, it is paying players that keep this game afloat and thriving.
I think that idea sets a dangerous precedent and would in effect dismantle the equal opportunity of players to acquire one of those "rare and desirable" items Druk described. See, I could buy hundreds of R/D packs and not get a single ship (though the odds are around 1/100). I could also buy just one pack and win a ship on my first try. Granted, those who pump enough cash/ec/etc have a better chance of getting the desired item than someone who opens a single pack, but there are cases of people spending 2-3k on kelvin lockboxes and not receiving a single T6 ship.
There should absolutely not be any consolation prize for those who choose willingly to spend money on promos/lockboxes. "Hey, you spent 500 dollars or more on r/d packs and didn't receive a single T6 ship, here's a chance to get one anyway" undermines the fairness of the system, formalizing a tiered player community of have/have nots.
If they really want a ship THAT bad, funnel money not into r/d packs, but into high-value items to sell for ec, allowing them to purchase the ship on the exchange. They have a 100% success rate. Ultimately, players choose where their money goes, and the onus is on them to make "wise" decisions -- they can gamble on promo packs, or they can wait a few more days/weeks/whatever to earn enough ec to buy the ship.
This game is F2P, so a formal tier of have/have nots already exists. In fact, this was already done with the T6 Nagus so we really can't expect what you say to be accurate.
The Nagus was a notable exception, granted, but what would F2P have to do with the tier system? People who pay subscriptions/LT really are not at an advantage. I could, if I choose to do so, inject enough of my own money into the game and be on par with anyone using the subscription model.
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field.
On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it. Those that have the money to spend will have an obviously better chance of getting the ship. That, or they have to be really good at generating EC in game and hope someone will sell them one.
I'm not complaining or crying over it.. in fact, I get it. I understand how these things work and why they're necessary. I don't like it, but I accept it. Even though I accept it, I'm not going to insult everyones intelligence and try and pretend it's fair for everyone, because it's clearly not.
Really ? People have begging and pleading for this one specific ship for the entirety of the game (because of its iconic symbolism of Trek - not because its some super P2W ship - its a fan ship).. and they go and promo it ? Like wtf is wrong with them ?
Sure, I can even see their business angle, and it makes sense financially for the company, but ffs, at some point give the players a break. The model might have been reworked, but it was already in the game. There was no justification for gamblebox'ing it, other then pure greed.
And don't try and feed me the "Let's keep this ship uncommon BS". That ship is THE symbol of Trek, and if any ship should be EVERYWHERE in the game its this one.
And it would have sold like wildfire in the C-Store, generating plenty of profit for the company (for the little amount of work they had to do on it), but I guess they were too greedy to even consider that. Or maybe they've done it out of spite, for every End Game Connie thread ever created. I dunno, but either way its a disgrace or the greatest God troll of all time.
Besides, what happened to faction ships being available in the C-Store ? Honestly, at this point, they may as well close up the c-store ship page, and shove all of them in gamble boxes if their going to operate in this manner.
This is a prime example of unfettered capitalism.
And btw, I'm not even interested in this ship for personal use.
It's definitely in Cryptic/PWE's best interests and definitely not in the interests of most of the players who might actually want one of these ships.
I'd probably buy the TLC (heh) if it was a C-Store purchase. Since it's not, and the RNG typically does not favor most players who do not do something over and over again, it's a bad purchase.
Buy the R&D packs if you really need an R&D pack. You might get lucky. But rolling the dice against house odds? Unwise.
It's definitely in Cryptic/PWE's best interests and definitely not in the interests of most of the players who might actually want one of these ships.
I'd probably buy the TLC (heh) if it was a C-Store purchase. Since it's not, and the RNG typically does not favor most players who do not do something over and over again, it's a bad purchase.
Buy the R&D packs if you really need an R&D pack. You might get lucky. But rolling the dice against house odds? Unwise.
I know right? Makes more sense to wait for a whole bunch of people to buy them (which we all know they will) and buy either the promo packs themselves or the ships themselves off of the exchange after accumulating and saving up in game resources.
Really ? People have begging and pleading for this one specific ship for the entirety of the game (because of its iconic symbolism of Trek - not because its some super P2W ship - its a fan ship).. and they go and promo it ? Like wtf is wrong with them ?
Sure, I can even see their business angle, and it makes sense financially for the company, but ffs, at some point give the players a break. The model might have been reworked, but it was already in the game. There was no justification for gamblebox'ing it, other then pure greed.
And don't try and feed me the "Let's keep this ship uncommon BS". That ship is THE symbol of Trek, and if any ship should be EVERYWHERE in the game its this one.
And it would have sold like wildfire in the C-Store, generating plenty of profit for the company (for the little amount of work they had to do on it), but I guess they were too greedy to even consider that. Or maybe they've done it out of spite, for every End Game Connie thread ever created. I dunno, but either way its a disgrace or the greatest God troll of all time.
Besides, what happened to faction ships being available in the C-Store ? Honestly, at this point, they may as well close up the c-store ship page, and shove all of them in gamble boxes if their going to operate in this manner.
This is a prime example of unfettered capitalism.
And btw, I'm not even interested in this ship for personal use.
STO isn't set in the TOS period, it would be bizarre indeed to see everyone doing contemporary star trek in the TOS ships.
Consider this analogy:
Imagine there is a game based on naval combat between battleships from WW2. Would it be appropriate to include in the game a wooden sailing ship, perhaps the H.M.S. Victory, and have it be able to sail around and sink many modern battleships?
Would it make sense to have swarms of them everywhere? Would it be a very good WW2 navy game anymore?
sorry my buddy but they are already selling t6 ships in the cstore that you can put a TOS skin on, so they dont seem to agree with your brilliant logic.
they let you put the TOS skins on all on the t6 temporal ship versions so they dont seem to mind people flying around in TOS era visuals at t6 or want to limit it enough to not put in in the cstore
The most iconic ship of TOS should be unique and one time only? But this is simply the temporal version of a ship anyone can get as a new character.
You lost me on that one.
I have no problem with Cryptic making money. Lord knows I'm easily in 3-4k since I join the first few weeks after it was released. I rolled for the jjprise and was happy to do so, also sprung lobi for the Vengeance which is the first time I've used lobi for a ship instead of buying it outright.
But this was poorly done and your defense isn't convincing. The TOS ships should have been released as a zen pack. I fume over minor things but almost never fume over packaging.
STO isn't set in the TOS period, it would be bizarre indeed to see everyone doing contemporary star trek in the TOS ships.
CBS lightened up on the no TOS connie because they are tying it to the new series which takes place before TOS. AoY is very much part of the cross-ownership promotion.
Which means you've missed something important with your assertion.
The Promotional R&D Packs themselves will cost a small fortune on the exchange. I looked last night and a non-promo pack was (cheapest) 12 mil. Imagine what the price will jump to when these babies are put up for sale during the event.
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The Promotional R&D Packs themselves will cost a small fortune on the exchange. I looked last night and a non-promo pack was (cheapest) 12 mil. Imagine what the price will jump to when these babies are put up for sale during the event.
I'm ok with that. EC is cheap. Zen is real life money. A tiny minority get rich playing the lottery. Everyone selling to lottery players gets revenue. Income is a time game.
But casinos are in no danger from the majority of the world ever really grasping that fact.
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field. On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it.
I disagree. In my opinion, if you have a chance to get it, especially one with a barrier to entry as low as a single promo pack, then it's fair to say that everyone has a chance to get it.
At the very minimum, everyone has a 1/100 chance of getting the ship. That's good enough for me.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
This is an argument with 3 prongs, 3 premises. If we are going to accept premise 1, that its good to have rare and desirable stuff, then we have to ask, "how can the ship be rare and desirable?"
Either it can be difficult to obtain based on an RNG mechanic, or difficult to obtain because of a very high price.
One of the options is fair to everyone, since everyone has a chance, the other option isn't.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
Well, we disagree about what 'fair' means. Having it exclusively available to people able to pay 150$ to get zen, or to grind that large quantity out, and completely unavailable to anyone else isn't fair to me. It's one of the premises I listed in the OP.
Also please bear in mind, the ship is available at a fixed price, because the promo mechanic means that people can trade them with each other, something that isn't possible with c-store ships. People who are capable of making benefit/cost analyses can recognize this quite easily.
But, in addition to this fixed price, there is another means to get one. You can get one by chance, and everyone can get a chance, not just that small group willing or able to pay or grind the large sum mentioned before.
Sale over the exchange is far from a fixed price, as exchange flippers can surely testify to. Since Cryptic does not maintain a monopoly over the cost of acquisition on the exchange, the price there will be highly variable. Assuming even the bare minimum of 750m EC per ship, this means that at exchange sales of 10mil per promo pack, a player would have to buy over 15 4-packs, with a cost of over 15000 zen. Granted these numbers are placeholders, but I think it illustrates my point without making wild assertions: The fact that they can be traded is of little consequence because it is still prohibitively expensive in that case. In fact, given the rarity and desirability of the pack, it will likely have an inflated price, incurring brutal costs than if they were simply sold via the C-Store.
The alternate means to acquire a pack is even more dreary. Even if players get a chance to receive it, the players have to expend resources for each chance they get. However, because of the prohibitively low chance, players who won't spend resources an order of magnitude or two above that needed for a single pack are highly disadvantaged. Even if such a player were to acquire the pack, they would be the exception rather than the rule, which may be fair from a statistical standpoint but not an economic one. In all cases, if they don't acquire the ship, then they will have a net loss, which is more undesirable than doing nothing at all and quite unfair compared to the C-Store if all the player wanted was to acquire the ship. At this point, I would even suggest that buying keys now out of sale and using them on the infinity box would provide better outcomes (not a good idea, but still better).
"I am not able to pay real money, so for that reason I don't have a chance to get one" is p2w and also unfair, in my opinion.
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field. On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it.
I disagree. In my opinion, if you have a chance to get it, especially one with a barrier to entry as low as a single promo pack, then it's fair to say that everyone has a chance to get it.
At the very minimum, everyone has a 1/100 chance of getting the ship. That's good enough for me.
Like i said in response to another poster, its qualitative not quantitative. It's a question about whether there is a chance, not about how big the chance is compared to something else.
If a ship was in the c-store and cost 15k zen, I dont think it would be fair to say that everyone had a chance to get one. People who paid for 15k zen or who managed to grind out that much zen worth of dil would have a 100% chance of getting one, and everyone else would have no chance at all.
This is an argument with 3 prongs, 3 premises. If we are going to accept premise 1, that its good to have rare and desirable stuff, then we have to ask, "how can the ship be rare and desirable?"
Either it can be difficult to obtain based on an RNG mechanic, or difficult to obtain because of a very high price.
One of the options is fair to everyone, since everyone has a chance, the other option isn't.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
Well, we disagree about what 'fair' means. Having it exclusively available to people able to pay 150$ to get zen, or to grind that large quantity out, and completely unavailable to anyone else isn't fair to me. It's one of the premises I listed in the OP.
Also please bear in mind, the ship is available at a fixed price, because the promo mechanic means that people can trade them with each other, something that isn't possible with c-store ships. People who are capable of making benefit/cost analyses can recognize this quite easily.
But, in addition to this fixed price, there is another means to get one. You can get one by chance, and everyone can get a chance, not just that small group willing or able to pay or grind the large sum mentioned before.
Sale over the exchange is far from a fixed price, as exchange flippers can surely testify to. Since Cryptic does not maintain a monopoly over the cost of acquisition on the exchange, the price there will be highly variable. Assuming even the bare minimum of 750m EC per ship, this means that at exchange sales of 10mil per promo pack, a player would have to buy over 15 4-packs, with a cost of over 15000 zen. Granted these numbers are placeholders, but I think it illustrates my point without making wild assertions: The fact that they can be traded is of little consequence because it is still prohibitively expensive in that case. In fact, given the rarity and desirability of the pack, it will likely have an inflated price, incurring brutal costs than if they were simply sold via the C-Store.
The alternate means to acquire a pack is even more dreary. Even if players get a chance to receive it, the players have to expend resources for each chance they get. However, because of the prohibitively low chance, players who won't spend resources an order of magnitude or two above that needed for a single pack are highly disadvantaged. Even if such a player were to acquire the pack, they would be the exception rather than the rule, which may be fair from a statistical standpoint but not an economic one. In all cases, if they don't acquire the ship, then they will have a net loss, which is more undesirable than doing nothing at all and quite unfair compared to the C-Store if all the player wanted was to acquire the ship. At this point, I would even suggest that buying keys now out of sale and using them on the infinity box would provide better outcomes (not a good idea, but still better).
In any MMO, people who put in more time and effort have an advantage over people who don't. It's part of what an MMO is, a progress-based game.
I would object that you really have a problem with the first premise, not the second one. You seem to disagree that its good if there are rare and desirable things.
For things to be rare and desirable, it must be true that people want them, but also that not everyone will get one. This is what you're objecting to in the second part of your post.
As for the exchange and whether it ever represents a fixed price, it does. Its not at all uncommon for the market to settle on a price for an item. Moreover, if you can find an item for sale on the exchange, it displays the price for it. Clicking buy buys the item at the price.
Rarity by high fixed price is a real thing, so it is in fact possible to disagree with the second premise without discounting the first. Additionally, with rarity comes market instability. See the various other rare items in the game for more information.
With the phenomenal t6-TOS promo coming out, I think its important that people take a moment to think about *why* things like this have to come from RNG packs. It isn't venality on the part of the developers, there is a logical reason for why it is best for players and the community that it works this way.
To not run afoul of the no-necro rule, I post a new thread rather than bump an old one. It is what it is!
There are three good outcomes to look for with prize ships in STO.
1) The prize ships are rare and desirable. -If nothing is rare and desirable, the game is tepid and boring.
2) Everyone has a chance to get one. -If not everyone has a chance to get one, it is unfair, and pay2win.
3) The company earns revenue and profit. -This is absolutely necessary for the game to continue being run. Business has to earn profit.
-
If we make them available to anyone who wants one at a fixed price in the c-store, but that price is low, then they are no longer rare and desirable, and we sacrifice outcome 1.
-
The only way to make the promo ships very rare and desirable, if they are offered to anyone who wants one at a fixed price in the c-store, is to make that price very high.
The market prices them at about 15k zen, which takes into account the consolation prizes in the promo boxes as well as the odds of winning a ship. In terms of zen expenditure to get one, its closer to 25k zen.
However, if they were offered at that high price, almost no one would have a chance to get them, and also, the owners would not get much revenue.
-
Since having the ships rare and desirable is a good outcome, and the game earning profit is a good outcome as well, and everyone having a chance to get the prize ship is a good outcome as well, we should not give up any one outcome in order to secure two of the others, when instead we can get all three outcomes at the same time.
1) It is good that the ship is rare and desirable
2) It is good that everyone has a chance to get one
3) It is good if the company earns revenue and profit.
The good in these outcomes is cumulative. Having two outcomes is better than having one, and having all three is better than having either two or one.
We can only have all three of these good outcomes if the ships are awarded from RNG boxes.
Since all three outcomes is better than just two, or just one, we should unequivocally support the ships being released in RNG boxes, since it leads to the best possible outcome for the game.
With the phenomenal t6-TOS promo coming out, I think its important that people take a moment to think about *why* things like this have to come from RNG packs. It isn't venality on the part of the developers, there is a logical reason for why it is best for players and the community that it works this way.
To not run afoul of the no-necro rule, I post a new thread rather than bump an old one. It is what it is!
There are three good outcomes to look for with prize ships in STO.
1) The prize ships are rare and desirable. -If nothing is rare and desirable, the game is tepid and boring.
2) Everyone has a chance to get one. -If not everyone has a chance to get one, it is unfair, and pay2win.
3) The company earns revenue and profit. -This is absolutely necessary for the game to continue being run. Business has to earn profit.
-
If we make them available to anyone who wants one at a fixed price in the c-store, but that price is low, then they are no longer rare and desirable, and we sacrifice outcome 1.
-
The only way to make the promo ships very rare and desirable, if they are offered to anyone who wants one at a fixed price in the c-store, is to make that price very high.
The market prices them at about 15k zen, which takes into account the consolation prizes in the promo boxes as well as the odds of winning a ship. In terms of zen expenditure to get one, its closer to 25k zen.
However, if they were offered at that high price, almost no one would have a chance to get them, and also, the owners would not get much revenue.
-
Since having the ships rare and desirable is a good outcome, and the game earning profit is a good outcome as well, and everyone having a chance to get the prize ship is a good outcome as well, we should not give up any one outcome in order to secure two of the others, when instead we can get all three outcomes at the same time.
1) It is good that the ship is rare and desirable
2) It is good that everyone has a chance to get one
3) It is good if the company earns revenue and profit.
The good in these outcomes is cumulative. Having two outcomes is better than having one, and having all three is better than having either two or one.
We can only have all three of these good outcomes if the ships are awarded from RNG boxes.
Since all three outcomes is better than just two, or just one, we should unequivocally support the ships being released in RNG boxes, since it leads to the best possible outcome for the game.
This is one of the most well written posts I've ever read on these forums.
Comments
Then by your opinion, it's P2W.
Putting an item in a lock box that costs money and giving it an insanely low drop rate does not create a level playing field. It creates a situation where (on average) only those that spend a considerable amount can get the item. Yes, there are is the situational anomaly of the person that buys 1 pack and gets the ship, but on average, getting a ship from a R&D pack is a significant financial investment, far more so then buying from the C-Store.
I know what you'll say - "Everyone has the same statistical chance." And that's correct, but they all have the same infinitesimal chance which means that to have any real chance of getting the item, multiple purchases are required in order to get enough chances to have a realistic shot at 'winning.' Putting all the rhetoric aside, we both know that on average, 'winning' one of these ships will cost a sizable amount of money, likely upwards of $100+. To try and pretend that's a 'level playing field' is frankly laughable.
Would I call it 'Pay to Win?' No, just because this ship isn't necessarily more powerful then anything available for Zen or even free from Events (The Rezreth, built correctly can be a top performer and was completely free, same with the Nandi.) But while I don't call it 'Pay 2 Win' I hardly consider it a level playing field.
On average, the T6 Connie will only be available to those willing to spend a very large amount of money trying to win it. Those that have the money to spend will have an obviously better chance of getting the ship. That, or they have to be really good at generating EC in game and hope someone will sell them one.
I'm not complaining or crying over it.. in fact, I get it. I understand how these things work and why they're necessary. I don't like it, but I accept it. Even though I accept it, I'm not going to insult everyones intelligence and try and pretend it's fair for everyone, because it's clearly not.
And that is why we won't agree on this topic, because we disagree here. It's both things combined, not just one. Giving everyone the same, very small chance, does not create an equality. It clearly gives a sizable advantage to someone who can afford to purchase multiple chances. Now, if everyone had the same chance, and everyone was limited to 3 tries, then your theory of equality is correct. You cannot simply dismiss the quantitative side of the equation, that doesn't work.
The first thing here is to understand that there is no situation outside of 'free for everyone' that gives every single person the same exact chance. That's not the issue, it's about creating the most opportunity for the vast majority. A fixed price is obviously the most balanced provided that price is within reason. There will always be someone who can't afford the price, and that situation will occur in any solution outside of 'here, everyone have one for free.'
I'm not worried about trying to find a solution that gives everyone the exact same chance because I know that's impossible. But there are other, more balanced solutions outside of just making something so expensive that most people can't afford it. There is a line between making something 'rare' and putting it completely out of reach of the average player.
I understand your side of the argument, I just disagree with the fundamental principals on which your argument is based.
Where's the magic line then? They can put temporal T6 Constitutions, Mirandas, Ambassadors, Stargazers and Oberths in prize boxes but not ships that already got their T5 version?
The Excelsior isn't much younger than the original Constitution class but she got her T6 c-store version nonetheless.
I'm not trying to be overly dramatic here. I just fear that more faction ships will have their T6 version put into an expensive prize box. And once more, Cryptic would be able to calm everybody down by simply stating that they had to do it this way and that they don't intend to put anymore faction ships into promotional prize boxes.
in the old days you paid your sub and you had access to EVERYTHING,for some reps,drops or mounts you had to really had to make an effort (anyone remember the ol' school grind for Reins of the Winterspring Frostsaber,yeah i went thru that and im damn proud),now on top of the sub you need to spend real money...that is why im not supporting either of these games.
sad that the gaming comunity is going along for the ride,taking shortcuts and just buying themselves content when it should be freaking earned not bought.
p.s sorry my bad,i put ships in the same bag as content when they barely qualify as glorified mounts...
Only if you except the idea that a ship must be rare in order to be desirable.
I don't.
Your price estimate is in the ballpark at 15,000 zen or around 900k EC or 6 million dil. But putting it in a lottery box does not make it any more or less possible for people to get it unless you are saying you could open 1 or 2 boxes and get it. If that's the argument then I'll stop right there and not waste any more time. Otherwise there's no difference whether they put the pricetag at 15,000 zen or a billion EC on the exchange, or converting 6 million dil to zen to buy it from the store if it's there and bound. It is equally easy or difficult to obtain.
Maybe you are saying it's better for players because they have plenty of ec but no dil and need it to be on the exchange to buy it? This is something I can't relate to but it may be a valid point.
However, the reason it is put in the lottery is because:
a. some people have absolutely bs amount of money and happily spend thousands on a game - in many cases way more than the 15,000 zen price estimate/market value. and
b. some people who don't have bs amounts of money have gambling addictions. I don't think exploiting such people would be something Jean-Luc would do. The rest of these argurment are interesting and nice, but this is the real reason. And I don't find it very pretty.
NOW, if you're saying that the zen store price would be 25,000 then okay, yes I agree with you, it is more fair/egalitarian to put it in the lottery. Now we are talking 10 million refined or 1.5 billion ec. That's a solid year of refining the cap on 4 characters for one item.
It remains appalling to me, however, that anyone would spend $250 on a single optional ship in a game.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I would think that Cryptic/PWE out of gratitude for spending X (a very high amount) amount of dollars on the game, specifically when it comes to special promotions, that the promo item would be available to the purchaser at least once. Yes, it is true that people are technically buying the R&D packs or what ever the typical item the promo is attached to and that is what they are getting in addition to whatever is typically attached to the item, but a "Thank You" RNG win for those players who purchase high amounts of the product would leave a more positive experience that the player would be more likely inclined to participate in the future rather than closing her/his wallet and walking away. After all, it is paying players that keep this game afloat and thriving.
Now after 6yrs of "I want a max level Connie!" Cryptic has put a desired ship in a rare slot just because it's desired in the hope to make more profit. I assume they've done the math and calculated that they will get more from these RNG-spawned ships than putting them in the C-store.
A qualitative analysis is inherently unfair to anyone seeking a detailed analysis which you seek to provide. A quantitative basis provides easy evaluation of benefits and costs. A qualitative basis leaves facts to be treated subjectively, which can mislead the reader and cause them to not act in their best interests. Hence, a quantitative analysis is desired. The fact that everyone has a chance does not change the fact that the chanceboxes are pay-to-win, in contradiction to your assertion that it is not.
Notably, in real life goods and services are often offered at fixed price points to prospective buyers. This lets them decide whether acquiring, say, a given good is in their best interests or if they are better off using their resources differently. This is considered fair because it allows consumers to make a benefit/cost analysis quite easily. Even if the item is rare, old and desirable, this is considered a fair way to sell it. A 15000-zen Constitution, even if per-character, would have been a fair option for Cryptic to take, although not necessarily in their best interests.
This game is F2P, so a formal tier of have/have nots already exists. In fact, this was already done with the T6 Nagus so we really can't expect what you say to be accurate.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's what I meant.
Yup, same here.
What gave you that impression?
Sure, I can even see their business angle, and it makes sense financially for the company, but ffs, at some point give the players a break. The model might have been reworked, but it was already in the game. There was no justification for gamblebox'ing it, other then pure greed.
And don't try and feed me the "Let's keep this ship uncommon BS". That ship is THE symbol of Trek, and if any ship should be EVERYWHERE in the game its this one.
And it would have sold like wildfire in the C-Store, generating plenty of profit for the company (for the little amount of work they had to do on it), but I guess they were too greedy to even consider that. Or maybe they've done it out of spite, for every End Game Connie thread ever created. I dunno, but either way its a disgrace or the greatest God troll of all time.
Besides, what happened to faction ships being available in the C-Store ? Honestly, at this point, they may as well close up the c-store ship page, and shove all of them in gamble boxes if their going to operate in this manner.
This is a prime example of unfettered capitalism.
And btw, I'm not even interested in this ship for personal use.
I'd probably buy the TLC (heh) if it was a C-Store purchase. Since it's not, and the RNG typically does not favor most players who do not do something over and over again, it's a bad purchase.
Buy the R&D packs if you really need an R&D pack. You might get lucky. But rolling the dice against house odds? Unwise.
I know right? Makes more sense to wait for a whole bunch of people to buy them (which we all know they will) and buy either the promo packs themselves or the ships themselves off of the exchange after accumulating and saving up in game resources.
sorry my buddy but they are already selling t6 ships in the cstore that you can put a TOS skin on, so they dont seem to agree with your brilliant logic.
You lost me on that one.
I have no problem with Cryptic making money. Lord knows I'm easily in 3-4k since I join the first few weeks after it was released. I rolled for the jjprise and was happy to do so, also sprung lobi for the Vengeance which is the first time I've used lobi for a ship instead of buying it outright.
But this was poorly done and your defense isn't convincing. The TOS ships should have been released as a zen pack. I fume over minor things but almost never fume over packaging.
This time I'm fuming over packaging.
Which means you've missed something important with your assertion.
Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
But casinos are in no danger from the majority of the world ever really grasping that fact.
Sale over the exchange is far from a fixed price, as exchange flippers can surely testify to. Since Cryptic does not maintain a monopoly over the cost of acquisition on the exchange, the price there will be highly variable. Assuming even the bare minimum of 750m EC per ship, this means that at exchange sales of 10mil per promo pack, a player would have to buy over 15 4-packs, with a cost of over 15000 zen. Granted these numbers are placeholders, but I think it illustrates my point without making wild assertions: The fact that they can be traded is of little consequence because it is still prohibitively expensive in that case. In fact, given the rarity and desirability of the pack, it will likely have an inflated price, incurring brutal costs than if they were simply sold via the C-Store.
The alternate means to acquire a pack is even more dreary. Even if players get a chance to receive it, the players have to expend resources for each chance they get. However, because of the prohibitively low chance, players who won't spend resources an order of magnitude or two above that needed for a single pack are highly disadvantaged. Even if such a player were to acquire the pack, they would be the exception rather than the rule, which may be fair from a statistical standpoint but not an economic one. In all cases, if they don't acquire the ship, then they will have a net loss, which is more undesirable than doing nothing at all and quite unfair compared to the C-Store if all the player wanted was to acquire the ship. At this point, I would even suggest that buying keys now out of sale and using them on the infinity box would provide better outcomes (not a good idea, but still better).
Rarity by high fixed price is a real thing, so it is in fact possible to disagree with the second premise without discounting the first. Additionally, with rarity comes market instability. See the various other rare items in the game for more information.
This is one of the most well written posts I've ever read on these forums.
Hab SoSlI' Quch!