Why is it that you criticize someone for saying "us" but yet, use "we", and who exactly is the "we" your are authorized to speak on the behalf of?
By capping DPS, the only randomness that will be eliminated is the will be the runs will take much longer, the low contribution players will still contribute lowly and the higher contribution will still contribute higher.
As far as "hard capping" how is that going to happen? Reduce the damage a weapon does? Guess what in the DPS function there is more than one way to cut down the "s". If I can shave the amount of time needed to go from one target to the other, that reduces."s", should a players speed be capped too? Should debuffs be nerfed?
Its easy to say "cap DPS", especially when one doesn't have to be able to back up solidly how to do it, and not hurt the lower lelvel players
Though the game is always being updated and improved, the overall difficulty of a particular mission or other content doesn't really change that much. It just appears easier because you learn how it works and how to play the mission better.
Well, unless a dev or patch notes directly indicates otherwise I guess. Beyond that the difficulty of a mission doesn't change that much from update to update.
(Depending your chosen difficulty level, and if you change that or not. And other factors like ship or ground equipment Mk level, rarity, consoles, etc. Those don't effect or change mission or content difficulty)
@whamhammer1 see and that's the biggest issue right there! People have no idea how DPS is factored or Damage Per Second! If you go into a map that requires you to kill everything and the TOTAL HP POOL of all enemies is 15,000,000 and you complete the map in exactly 2 minutes or 120 seconds the math formula is 15,000,000 ÷ 120 = 125,000 DPS. Fact is a 250K DPS Build could parse 10k if the match lasts long enough!
@whamhammer1 see and that's the biggest issue right there! People have no idea how DPS is factored or Damage Per Second! If you go into a map that requires you to kill everything and the TOTAL HP POOL of all enemies is 15,000,000 and you complete the map in exactly 2 minutes or 120 seconds the math formula is 15,000,000 ÷ 120 = 125,000 DPS. Fact is a 250K DPS Build could parse 10k if the match lasts long enough!
And that a lot of what factors into DPS isn't direct damage but knowing how and where to be at a certain situation. Every second thats not spent, being in the wrong place, or shooting the wrong target, factors heavily into a DPS, not to mention how the team works together as a whole.
"Capping" DPS is a fools errand because it cannot be done. The only way to reduce the top end is to reduce the entire curve, and odds are that the percentage of gap will actually expand between the highest/lowest/median because the higher end players will understand the impact better, and mitigate it.
@whamhammer1 see and that's the biggest issue right there! People have no idea how DPS is factored or Damage Per Second! If you go into a map that requires you to kill everything and the TOTAL HP POOL of all enemies is 15,000,000 and you complete the map in exactly 2 minutes or 120 seconds the math formula is 15,000,000 ÷ 120 = 125,000 DPS. Fact is a 250K DPS Build could parse 10k if the match lasts long enough!
Ehm yes. I think most of us already realised what the pretty straightforward term DPS means, and that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand what it represents. Thanks for sharing your wisdom though.
@whamhammer1 see and that's the biggest issue right there! People have no idea how DPS is factored or Damage Per Second! If you go into a map that requires you to kill everything and the TOTAL HP POOL of all enemies is 15,000,000 and you complete the map in exactly 2 minutes or 120 seconds the math formula is 15,000,000 ÷ 120 = 125,000 DPS. Fact is a 250K DPS Build could parse 10k if the match lasts long enough!
And that a lot of what factors into DPS isn't direct damage but knowing how and where to be at a certain situation. Every second thats not spent, being in the wrong place, or shooting the wrong target, factors heavily into a DPS, not to mention how the team works together as a whole.
"Capping" DPS is a fools errand because it cannot be done. The only way to reduce the top end is to reduce the entire curve, and odds are that the percentage of gap will actually expand between the highest/lowest/median because the higher end players will understand the impact better, and mitigate it.
Of course it can be done. Theoretically, that is, I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about programming.
But, theoretically speaking, if you change NPC's such that they'll never take more than an x amount of damage per second, you cap the effective DPS of players. Sure, some players will actually put out more than that, but if you change the NPC's such that the additional damage, that above the cap, is mitigated then it won't matter. Enemies would then never die before an x amount of seconds, making sure the match lasts long enough and everyone gets a chance to shoot at stuff and, even better, it would completely remove the incentive to put out ever greater numbers and allow (or even encourage) players to focus on other things instead.
For private instances these changes don't have to be made, players who want to be done in 2 minutes can still do that by creating their own team. I'm just talking about the queues here that are almost unPUGable not because they're too difficult, but because the instance lasts only a fraction of the time it is supposed to last.
Further, add stuff like Feedback pulse to make pushing out more damage detrimental to the team and it would also make different roles viable. Basically the same stuff that has been proposed by many players here, on many occasions. Perhaps only add those things to Elite missions, perhaps also to Advanced.
I think it's pretty hard at this point not to admit there is a problem. The additional dilemma is that there is no easy solution. Well, the easy solution is to triple the enemy HP. But this would only slow down the dps monsters by a few seconds and it might make the game a tedious chore like we saw in October 2014 for everyone else.
Other solutions might be a nerf to faw or tac and particles consoles. Maybe also getting rid of the new hull penetration skills and maybe others.
Making enemies fly around at you won't help. We have some that do it already like Vaadwar. They just get melted by faw. I guess maybe having enemies spam fbp and aceton assimilators. Though that last would be pretty silly to explain storywise other than the real reason why they suddenly all used them.
For crystalline I was thinking one fix would be to have the entity be immune to all damage while absorbing and maybe quintuple the power of its blast.
Either that or let me and other bleeding hearts come to the poor thing's defense.
@sheldoncooper ya that's what we need more nerfs to science! /sarcasm do you realise I've had to build a ship soo heavily reliant on PartG that it literally can't use anything else to deal damage and I still only pull 80k dps while Tacs using escorts or dreads (T6 Scimitar) with FAW and Tac Consoles pull 200k+....
*GASP!!*
They speak against the holy ,just and almighty BFaW?....O.O
BLASPHEMERS!!! how DARE you speak such heresy in the hallowed halls of BFaW , within the walls of the holy church of FaW, you shall fall to your knees and REPENT , your sins against BFaW fo you have forgotten the ten commandents of the FaW.
1 : Thou shalt never speak against BFaW
2 : Thou shalt not have any other god...er skill but BFaW
3: Thou shalt not covet science before BFaW and TaC
4: Thou shalt not use thy neighbors , sci console
5: Thou shalt not covet they neighbors sci ship
6: Thou shalt hath not other skill then BFaW
7: Thou shalt offer praise and tributes to BFaW
8: Thou shalt not bear false witness , against BFaW
9: Thou shalt not have any other profession and skill , except TaC and BFaW
10: Thou shalt always praise the glory of the BFaW and TaC
Those who break these ten commandments shall be given a amish style shaming, and be branded a witch
[...]
What we need are proper challenging and rewarding elites. Give us the Elite versions of the most popular queues already. [...]
Who is thus "us" you speak of? How many players are part of that "us"?
Is it economical to design missions for a few hundred players? Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the game in some way so that the existing content is fun for all?
By "us" I mean people with ships ready for Elites. If a map like HSE generally requires an average of 50k per player, then there are:
1071 Tactical Captains ready for elite.
271 Science Captains ready for elite.
277 Engineering Captains ready for elite.
Of course just being 50k and up doesn't make you generally ready for elites (apart from Korfez, because that's not really up there in difficulty against the other elites) but at that level, I'd say you are on the verge of being ready for it.
Note these numbers are post DPS board wipe, so there may be more above 50k that haven't had an uploaded parse yet.
And if any of your past threads are any indication, only a few dozen of you want harder, longer content for advanced and normal and consider that "fun". What you want is a repeat of Delta Rising where things were more challenging (I actually liked that) but that killed the queues. So I do not think what you are advocating for is "fun for all".
And there really wouldn't be such a thing as "fun for all". Players will have different skill, different capacities to invest time and resources in the game and different ideas of what is fun. That's why I think it is important to have a complete lineup of Elite queues so that those that truly want a challenge can do so while those who want to play more casually can remain in Normal and Advanced.
But, theoretically speaking, if you change NPC's such that they'll never take more than an x amount of damage per second, you cap the effective DPS of players.
I don't think you need that. You just have to make pure DPS builds impractical.
An example of that was before HSE was "fixed" by removing super-resistant tactical cubes. Now you may think that resistant enemies just inflate their HP therefore requiring more DPS, but in HSE where things can hit pretty hard, that increase in resistance meant that if you try to kill them via DPS alone, you will lose because they can and will kill you first. This is why 100-150k DPS ISA ships dropped down to 50-80k in HSE. They had to build for more survivability, or check their fire. Also it made it necessary to have tanks or even healers in the team. When Cryptic removed those resistant cubes earlier this year, pure DPS builds can now do HSE. That's why we are seeing really short runs and more people above 100k (pre wipe had 2 or 3 just above 100k, now there are 15 and that's after the recent DPS board wipe).
So in an Elite setting, simply raising NPC resistance while keeping their firepower up can limit the practicality of DPS without really nerfing or artificially capping a player's potential. As long as these Elites pay out well for the effort (heck even awarding accolades for space barbie unlocks will push more players into Elites) I think they will be a hit.
Why are we suddenly talking about some groups of players, instead of the state of the game?
The state of the game atm? I like it just fine.
[...]
Now that is a debate that makes sense.
Whining about people not doing enough dps or not beeing friendly enough, or defending people from other people from supposedly false accusations of not being friendly enough seem pointless, though.
Game environments that enable 1-2 good players to carry stages designed to be concluded by teams of 5 or even 10 players negates the need to moan over the low performance of others. Every single player in game has the option, but not the requirement, to become as good.
A state where a full team of good players is required to conclude an advanced map however is problematic because underperforming players can easily lead to annoying game experiences then. The consequence is a separated community because good players tend to stick together simply excluding the bad ones from play.
Over the duration of the past 2 years we had both situations in this game. I like the first one a lot better and that is the reason why I criticize most of your forum posts. Your ambitions to make good players less good will simply lead to situation two again.
I have nine characters by now that can dish out 75k+ DPS! One even over twice as much. I rather use them to pull every newbe in fleet (and even in game) through than to play exclusively in DPS Diamond. I get a good match out of it and they get a chance to play. It’s a fair deal I can easily offer under current conditions but not if I'm annoyed.
This is the first CC event in over 2 years where I count 300+ players on advanced and 50+ ones in normal. It’s almost 50% of the numbers we got a few years ago when CC was brand new. Peeps simply pug and finally don’t hide in DPS channels anymore.
It is my opinion that the recent power tsunami has a healthy influence on the endgame situation and encourages players to play together despite their respective in game standings and back grounds.
It’s a good thing.
No, it's not.
Allowing 1 good player to effortlessly curbstomp mission supposedly designed for teams of 5-10 players negates the point of playing together at all. If I can easily solo a queue, waiting for a bunch of randos to show up is just a royal waste of time.
You take your 75k into ISA with a bunch of newbies, you get (in your opinion) a good match out of it and they get a chance to watch you play. The next time they try it and don't luck out on someone to carry them, they get to start a stupid forum thread asking why the Borg are suddenly so powerful when before they died in seconds.
And the CC event hasn't been a game in ages. It's a chore. Zone in, fly to 10km, tap space for a while, collect reward, repeat with next toon. The very fact that Advanced has more players than Normal proves it's way too easy, that the only peeps who play Normal are the ones who don't know Advanced is just as auto-win.
Players of vastly different skill levels just aren't meant to play together. Not seriously.
Well you say that it would not take me any efforts, but this is simply not the case.
It took me considerable in-game effort to get where I am now. In-game efforts where I had to do my homework, a lot of homework to get the stuff I want. Also off-game efforts where I had to do a massive amount of research to tinker out what would work out for me and what not. It is basically years of dedication put toward STO. Dedication I can bring because I don’t play anything else.
Even in every single run I do it’s effort for me. And that is the whole point of it. It takes me effort when I lead a group not to overestimate my capabilities and pop half a dozen times. Even in potent groups it takes me effort because only perfect piloting and playing aggressively will bring me into a position where I can half way compete with this game’s elite.
In both cases those matches are not necessarily easy for me but that by choice, not my design! Sure I could take it easy and perhaps sometimes I even do but in general this is not the case because it would kill my ambition to play.
As far as the solo stuff is concerned I’d like to point out to you that most of the performances you see in youtube videos are not just done on the fly but also took multiple tries and probably even different strategic approaches to get it right. Also not necessarily easy for the person who has done it.
I can’t argue with you that contend as a whole has become too easy for the best of PvEers in STO. Especially advanced maps which are the most fun to play by everybody and which sadly miss an elite version.
Still advanced is the common ground we all meet and where we have to make the best of it. And that is what I ask for here instead of nagging cryptic to change what works. A lot of elite players cope with the situation by simply setting their personal goals. DPS records, speed runs, low level builds, full tanking, full sci. If one does such a thing and thrives upon it the map suddenly feels not easy.
You think on my 168k DPS tac run I did with cannons on a fragile escort I had an easy time? I did not because two 100k+ beam players in team where chasing me. With 128k DPS I also ended up on #6 in the engineering DPS leaderboard of the metal league. You know how I ended up there? I did a full agro run as a tank in a weak pug group which was also far from easy. ISA can get tough if you are the target of every critter on stage and still try to rock it fast!
Long speech short. Everybody can become as good and step out of the role of a spectator and thereby loose the “easy” game impression as a result of power creep. It also does not really matter if you do 10k or 100k, just play with enthusiasm and dedication and it will work.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Yeah it certainly is easier to fly at 10-20k DPS than it is to push beyond 50k. Not just because you can be carried, but because there are a lot less things happening at a lower DPS level. It just lasts longer. It's akin to sprinting a 100m dash compared to walking it.
The only time low DPS becomes difficult is when everyone is below the DPS threshold the map was designed for.
Well you say that it would not take me any efforts, but this is simply not the case.
It took me considerable in-game effort to get where I am now. In-game efforts where I had to do my homework, a lot of homework to get the stuff I want. Also off-game efforts where I had to do a massive amount of research to tinker out what would work out for me and what not. It is basically years of dedication put toward STO. Dedication I can bring because I don’t play anything else.
Even in every single run I do it’s effort for me. And that is the whole point of it. It takes me effort when I lead a group not to overestimate my capabilities and pop half a dozen times. Even in potent groups it takes me effort because only perfect piloting and playing aggressively will bring me into a position where I can half way compete with this game’s elite.
In both cases those matches are not necessarily easy for me but that by choice, not my design! Sure I could take it easy and perhaps sometimes I even do but in general this is not the case because it would kill my ambition to play.
As far as the solo stuff is concerned I’d like to point out to you that most of the performances you see in youtube videos are not just done on the fly but also took multiple tries and probably even different strategic approaches to get it right. Also not necessarily easy for the person who has done it.
I can’t argue with you that contend as a whole has become too easy for the best of PvEers in STO. Especially advanced maps which are the most fun to play by everybody and which sadly miss an elite version.
Still advanced is the common ground we all meet and where we have to make the best of it. And that is what I ask for here instead of nagging cryptic to change what works. A lot of elite players cope with the situation by simply setting their personal goals. DPS records, speed runs, low level builds, full tanking, full sci. If one does such a thing and thrives upon it the map suddenly feels not easy.
You think on my 168k DPS tac run I did with cannons on a fragile escort I had an easy time? I did not because two 100k+ beam players in team where chasing me. With 128k DPS also ended up on #6 in the engineering DPS leaderboard of the metal league. You know how I ended up there? I did a full agro run as a tank in a weak pug group which was also far from easy. ISA can get tough if you are the target of every critter on stage and still try to rock it fast!
Long speech short. Everybody can become as good and step out of the role of a spectator and thereby loose the “easy” game impression as a result of power creep. It also does not really matter if you do 10k or 100k, just play with enthusiasm and dedication and it will work.
Well said again. Of course it takes time and effort to learn, but all the dissenting voices like to just claim that DPS is 'mashing the space bar' and poof.. you pull 100k. A belief that's obviously false.
What you have in this thread are a couple of very vocal players that would like everyone brought down to their level and they're trying to present their argument as being what's 'best for the game.' Really, what they mean is that they want the game tailored to their specific skill set (or lack of it.)
Sadly, your posts are falling mostly on deaf ears because these people aren't going to listen to any other side of the argument. You have already explained in a very descriptive way why the 'bringing everyone down' strategy doesn't work, but as usual, they just glossed over it without even bothering to consider it.
[...]
What we need are proper challenging and rewarding elites. Give us the Elite versions of the most popular queues already. [...]
Who is thus "us" you speak of? How many players are part of that "us"?
Is it economical to design missions for a few hundred players? Wouldn't it make more sense to adjust the game in some way so that the existing content is fun for all?
In addition to the figures @e30ernest gave you I’d like to point out to you that “fun for all” is sadly something we are unlikely to ever get. I would even go so far as to say that if the elite worthy players got their elite mode of CC it could be that the fun for them or “us” could come at the expense of a lot of players which suddenly find themselves in trouble and/or in very long advanced matches when the elite players miss out there.
I think I understand the perspective of every player in this thread. Reason is that I took the entire path from bottom to top (or at least top 40) myself. I play with the best DPSer in STO and with the most noobish pug. I like it and them all because I know how to handle it and, whats more important, play a game which enables me to acquired the means to handle it in the first place.
All I ask is that peeps please consider a bit what they ask or wish for here.
As it currently stands, and that by only looking at the number of people taking part in the CCA event, this one is the most popular event in almost 2 years. It puts other events like mirror and especially breach to shame, not to mention the rest of the available content. There are likely to be a lot of reasons for that, with current power creep conditions only being one, but the result is clear.
We can log on into STO. Just queue up and play without trouble or going into great lengths for whatever reasons.
As somebody who basically only plays teamed PVE in this game this is something which we should not take for granted after Delta Rising and what I simply don’t want to lose again.
The majority seems to have a good time doing CC and that is really awesome for a change.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Well you say that it would not take me any efforts, but this is simply not the case.
It took me considerable in-game effort to get where I am now. In-game efforts where I had to do my homework, a lot of homework to get the stuff I want. Also off-game efforts where I had to do a massive amount of research to tinker out what would work out for me and what not. It is basically years of dedication put toward STO. Dedication I can bring because I don’t play anything else.
Even in every single run I do it’s effort for me. And that is the whole point of it. It takes me effort when I lead a group not to overestimate my capabilities and pop half a dozen times. Even in potent groups it takes me effort because only perfect piloting and playing aggressively will bring me into a position where I can half way compete with this game’s elite.
In both cases those matches are not necessarily easy for me but that by choice, not my design! Sure I could take it easy and perhaps sometimes I even do but in general this is not the case because it would kill my ambition to play.
As far as the solo stuff is concerned I’d like to point out to you that most of the performances you see in youtube videos are not just done on the fly but also took multiple tries and probably even different strategic approaches to get it right. Also not necessarily easy for the person who has done it.
I can’t argue with you that contend as a whole has become too easy for the best of PvEers in STO. Especially advanced maps which are the most fun to play by everybody and which sadly miss an elite version.
Still advanced is the common ground we all meet and where we have to make the best of it. And that is what I ask for here instead of nagging cryptic to change what works. A lot of elite players cope with the situation by simply setting their personal goals. DPS records, speed runs, low level builds, full tanking, full sci. If one does such a thing and thrives upon it the map suddenly feels not easy.
You think on my 168k DPS tac run I did with cannons on a fragile escort I had an easy time? I did not because two 100k+ beam players in team where chasing me. With 128k DPS also ended up on #6 in the engineering DPS leaderboard of the metal league. You know how I ended up there? I did a full agro run as a tank in a weak pug group which was also far from easy. ISA can get tough if you are the target of every critter on stage and still try to rock it fast!
Long speech short. Everybody can become as good and step out of the role of a spectator and thereby loose the “easy” game impression as a result of power creep. It also does not really matter if you do 10k or 100k, just play with enthusiasm and dedication and it will work.
Well said again. Of course it takes time and effort to learn, but all the dissenting voices like to just claim that DPS is 'mashing the space bar' and poof.. you pull 100k. A belief that's obviously false.
What you have in this thread are a couple of very vocal players that would like everyone brought down to their level and they're trying to present their argument as being what's 'best for the game.' Really, what they mean is that they want the game tailored to their specific skill set (or lack of it.)
Sadly, your posts are falling mostly on deaf ears because these people aren't going to listen to any other side of the argument. You have already explained in a very descriptive way why the 'bringing everyone down' strategy doesn't work, but as usual, they just glossed over it without even bothering to consider it.
I understand and thank you for your nice words sea.
For me it’s just that I’m currently very happy in STO. It makes me proud to see so many players around (in here, in game) that have managed to reclaim the public content after a state where it was totally barren. They took great effort to do so and now have the right to enjoy it in my opinion. Any drastic change could take it away again in a flash. You and I could still have a good time in the league then because we are good enough. Others may not and leave again.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I understand and thank you for your nice words sea.
For me it’s just that I’m currently very happy in STO. It makes me proud to see so many players around (in here, in game) that have managed to reclaim the public content after a state where it was totally barren. They took great effort to do so and now have the right to enjoy it in my opinion. Any drastic change could take it away again in a flash. You and I could still have a good time in the league then because we are good enough. Others may not and leave again.
Agreed, even though some don't see it, I think the game is more accessible to everyone now then it's been in quite a long time. The 'good' players, the 'average' players and those still learning are all grouped together and no one suffers as a result. I like that I can enter a public queue and not have to worry about it being a total waste of my time. Yes, it's possible that I'm going to have to shoulder the bulk of the load, it's also possible that I'm going to get to cruise, but either way.. the content is accessible.
Those that feel left out because they don't feel they contribute enough on a team are free to take the time and effort that people like us have spent and work on getting better. STO is one of the only MMO's I have ever seen where knowledge isn't horded or given only to those that 'earn it.' Anyone that wants to learn simply has to ask. If however, they don't wish to put in the effort, that's ok too.. they can do what they can knowing that others have the ability to make up for the deficiency. I never really know what I'm going to get when I queue up, and like you.. I like that.
I feel that the game currently is all inclusive. I understand some still feel left out, but they can easily fix that if they wish.
There is also the side-effect of power creep (or power-leap as one said above) that is now allowing much more build diversity to be viable. Last year, if you wanted to do an Elite other than Korfez, you had to be in a FAW boat. Now you can participate and contribute in an Elite with a variety of builds. From "canon" (faction specific beams and torps), cannon and torp builds to science builds, you can now join in an Elite and actually help the team.
You are right that STFs are now more inclusive rather than exclusive. The meta still exists but it isn't something everyone has to subscribe to if they want to get past the normal, or even advanced difficulties.
but before they create harder Content, they should reduce the lag
It is annoying, when you want to stack a few skills, or urgently Need a heal and you hit the button and nothing happens...
while in advanced Mission normally you die once or twice at a max and you just do less damage. But in elite this could be a huge problem
18 characters
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
Hm. Let us suppose each of those players spends, say, 20 dollars per month on the game. That would be a total of about 30,000 dollars from these people per month, or enough to pay for, what, five to ten developers?
Damn it, you are right, under that assumption, elite content of that kind, contoniously developed by a four-man team, would be economically viable. And that's not even counting synergies.
Thus, I change my stance: Bring on the elite queues!
That list counts alts though (my engineer and sci captains are counted once per career for example) but as far as "unique" @handles go, there are 1306 individual players with at least 1 character above 50k.
Note this is a table that was reset at the end of April. So that list is pretty current I think.
I think it's pretty hard at this point not to admit there is a problem. The additional dilemma is that there is no easy solution. Well, the easy solution is to triple the enemy HP. But this would only slow down the dps monsters by a few seconds and it might make the game a tedious chore like we saw in October 2014 for everyone else.
Other solutions might be a nerf to faw or tac and particles consoles. Maybe also getting rid of the new hull penetration skills and maybe others.
Making enemies fly around at you won't help. We have some that do it already like Vaadwar. They just get melted by faw. I guess maybe having enemies spam fbp and aceton assimilators. Though that last would be pretty silly to explain storywise other than the real reason why they suddenly all used them.
For crystalline I was thinking one fix would be to have the entity be immune to all damage while absorbing and maybe quintuple the power of its blast.
Either that or let me and other bleeding hearts come to the poor thing's defense.
@sheldoncooper ya that's what we need more nerfs to science! /sarcasm do you realise I've had to build a ship soo heavily reliant on PartG that it literally can't use anything else to deal damage and I still only pull 80k dps while Tacs using escorts or dreads (T6 Scimitar) with FAW and Tac Consoles pull 200k+....
*GASP!!*
They speak against the holy ,just and almighty BFaW?....O.O
BLASPHEMERS!!! how DARE you speak such heresy in the hallowed halls of BFaW , within the walls of the holy church of FaW, you shall fall to your knees and REPENT , your sins against BFaW fo you have forgotten the ten commandents of the FaW.
1 : Thou shalt never speak against BFaW
2 : Thou shalt not have any other god...er skill but BFaW
3: Thou shalt not covet science before BFaW and TaC
4: Thou shalt not use thy neighbors , sci console
5: Thou shalt not covet they neighbors sci ship
6: Thou shalt hath not other skill then BFaW
7: Thou shalt offer praise and tributes to BFaW
8: Thou shalt not bear false witness , against BFaW
9: Thou shalt not have any other profession and skill , except TaC and BFaW
10: Thou shalt always praise the glory of the BFaW and TaC
Those who break these ten commandments shall be given a amish style shaming, and be branded a witch
It is of note that Sci consoles are acceptable if they benefit BFAW (plasma explosion).
I don’t know how much you payed attention to recent events in the DPS land. Cannons have managed to get in the 240k+ reach (yes on a split in a channel run but still). Also thanks to more and more synergetic effects sci abilities with respective traits and skills are on a new height I haven’t witnessed in the four years I’m am around.
As things are now, neither refusing to use fire at will nor putting heavy emphasis on sci abilities would exclude you from high places on the DPS leaderboard under current conditions.
I think the remaining PvE boundaries are more within us than in the actual game.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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I switched 2 of my alts from BFAW boats to faster ships running cannons, they haven't missed a beat.
Anyone that thinks FAW is required or the only way is completely and totally wrong. Sure, the cannon builds are a little harder to play, they take a bit more skill and better positioning. This however, is still STO and nothing in this game is actually hard given at least a minimal amount of effort.
Fact of the matter is a hard cap on DPS would sustainably solve the actual problem, as opposed to your perceived problem.
Envy is not a problem. Unpredictability of a queue (will it be fun, impossible, or just boringly easy?) is one - while a PUG can make a queue "too hard", it should never be possible to make it "too easy".
A hard cap would maybe solve your particular problem but would cause a problem for others, in particular all those that hit the hard cap. One of the key points of RPG's / MMO's is the ability to progress normally done via getting better gear / more abilites / more shinies while you play through the game. Why should any player that hits such a hard cap play the game any more (aside from new story mission once every couple of months)? With a hard cap, the game tells such a player that he has reached maximum progress. No more reason to buy any ships, no more reason to get better gear, no more crafting, no interest in mission rewards, no more reason to get dil/EC/Zen at that point. A hard cap simply goes against one of the most basic reasons for playing a game like STO simply by removing the want/need for further progress. And it would also mean less players willing to spend/time money on the game which is something Cryptic certainly has no interest in.
There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough.
The only thing ridiculous about that situation is that the powers that be don't respond to it by creating content in which 15k is NOT enough.
Why is that ridiculous? The high number crew a.k.a. DPS gurus consist of maybe 5 percent of the total play base.
Even if they consisted of 10% then the developers would still have to tailor their content for the group which does not achieve the large numbers.
In the best case scenario the average is a mere 20k DPS (probably lower) so the content should be tailored for that number.
I'm also not convinced that the high numbers are intended by the developers and in my opinion it is only a matter of time before tweaks are made.
Something like making the powers non stacking. Activate one power and put others on global cool down. Use global cool downs to prevent people from circumventing the CD completely etc.
This will only have a significant impact on the high DPS crowd and not on the average Joe.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I understand and thank you for your nice words sea.
For me it’s just that I’m currently very happy in STO. It makes me proud to see so many players around (in here, in game) that have managed to reclaim the public content after a state where it was totally barren. They took great effort to do so and now have the right to enjoy it in my opinion. Any drastic change could take it away again in a flash. You and I could still have a good time in the league then because we are good enough. Others may not and leave again.
Agreed, even though some don't see it, I think the game is more accessible to everyone now then it's been in quite a long time. The 'good' players, the 'average' players and those still learning are all grouped together and no one suffers as a result. I like that I can enter a public queue and not have to worry about it being a total waste of my time. Yes, it's possible that I'm going to have to shoulder the bulk of the load, it's also possible that I'm going to get to cruise, but either way.. the content is accessible.
Those that feel left out because they don't feel they contribute enough on a team are free to take the time and effort that people like us have spent and work on getting better. STO is one of the only MMO's I have ever seen where knowledge isn't horded or given only to those that 'earn it.' Anyone that wants to learn simply has to ask. If however, they don't wish to put in the effort, that's ok too.. they can do what they can knowing that others have the ability to make up for the deficiency. I never really know what I'm going to get when I queue up, and like you.. I like that.
I feel that the game currently is all inclusive. I understand some still feel left out, but they can easily fix that if they wish.
The grind is more accessible to everyone now. The grind is all inclusive. Anyone can enter a public queue and not have to worry about missing their standard reward. The missions don't have challenge, just work to be done, or load to be shouldered as you say. To h*** with challenge and fun, as long as you get your dil and marks at the end, playing the game isn't a "total waste of time."d
Well, I say people who think a game is a waste of time if they don't win every time, can't really like the game all that much.
To quote the Daleks, "this is not war, this is pest control." I'd rather have a war.
And that is still saying "punish the good players for being good"
One can argue if using unintended side effects is enough to be considered "good" especially since large portions are using copy/paste builds without understanding the mechanics behind it.
Calling them exploits would be taking it a step too far, but it would be a small step hardly worth mentioning.
Too many things have an unintentional stacking effect and it is not a question IF it will be rectified, but only WHEN this will happen.
Concentrate on piloting and teamwork instead of worshiping stacking mechanics. For those who fancy stacking, even after the current situation is rectified it is inevitable that new powers/traits are introduced which stack unintended.
However, for now things have gone out of control/gone off the deep end and complaining about a future rectification is a fools errant.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
And that is still saying "punish the good players for being good"
One can argue if using unintended side effects is enough to be considered "good" especially since large portions are using copy/paste builds without understanding the mechanics behind it.
Calling them exploits would be taking it a step too far, but it would be a small step hardly worth mentioning.
Too many things have an unintentional stacking effect and it is not a question IF it will be rectified, but only WHEN this will happen.
Concentrate on piloting and teamwork instead of worshiping stacking mechanics. For those who fancy stacking, even after the current situation is rectified it is inevitable that new powers/traits are introduced which stack unintended.
However, for now things have gone out of control/gone off the deep end and complaining about a future rectification is a fools errant.
Stacking effects are not "unintended" just because you don't like them.
Success is success is success. Some have it, others jealously whine it doesn't count because they're doing it "the wrong way."
And that is still saying "punish the good players for being good"
One can argue if using unintended side effects is enough to be considered "good" especially since large portions are using copy/paste builds without understanding the mechanics behind it.
Calling them exploits would be taking it a step too far, but it would be a small step hardly worth mentioning.
Too many things have an unintentional stacking effect and it is not a question IF it will be rectified, but only WHEN this will happen.
Concentrate on piloting and teamwork instead of worshiping stacking mechanics. For those who fancy stacking, even after the current situation is rectified it is inevitable that new powers/traits are introduced which stack unintended.
However, for now things have gone out of control/gone off the deep end and complaining about a future rectification is a fools errant.
Stacking effects are not "unintended" just because you don't like them.
Success is success is success. Some have it, others jealously whine it doesn't count because they're doing it "the wrong way."
No, they are that because a developer has addressed them as such in the past.
Face up to the reality that things will change sooner or later. The only question is how far up the priority list are the required changes. For the moment AoY and the summer event take priority, but how long will that last?
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Comments
Why is it that you criticize someone for saying "us" but yet, use "we", and who exactly is the "we" your are authorized to speak on the behalf of?
By capping DPS, the only randomness that will be eliminated is the will be the runs will take much longer, the low contribution players will still contribute lowly and the higher contribution will still contribute higher.
As far as "hard capping" how is that going to happen? Reduce the damage a weapon does? Guess what in the DPS function there is more than one way to cut down the "s". If I can shave the amount of time needed to go from one target to the other, that reduces."s", should a players speed be capped too? Should debuffs be nerfed?
Its easy to say "cap DPS", especially when one doesn't have to be able to back up solidly how to do it, and not hurt the lower lelvel players
Though the game is always being updated and improved, the overall difficulty of a particular mission or other content doesn't really change that much. It just appears easier because you learn how it works and how to play the mission better.
Well, unless a dev or patch notes directly indicates otherwise I guess. Beyond that the difficulty of a mission doesn't change that much from update to update.
(Depending your chosen difficulty level, and if you change that or not. And other factors like ship or ground equipment Mk level, rarity, consoles, etc. Those don't effect or change mission or content difficulty)
And that a lot of what factors into DPS isn't direct damage but knowing how and where to be at a certain situation. Every second thats not spent, being in the wrong place, or shooting the wrong target, factors heavily into a DPS, not to mention how the team works together as a whole.
"Capping" DPS is a fools errand because it cannot be done. The only way to reduce the top end is to reduce the entire curve, and odds are that the percentage of gap will actually expand between the highest/lowest/median because the higher end players will understand the impact better, and mitigate it.
Ehm yes. I think most of us already realised what the pretty straightforward term DPS means, and that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand what it represents. Thanks for sharing your wisdom though.
Of course it can be done. Theoretically, that is, I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about programming.
But, theoretically speaking, if you change NPC's such that they'll never take more than an x amount of damage per second, you cap the effective DPS of players. Sure, some players will actually put out more than that, but if you change the NPC's such that the additional damage, that above the cap, is mitigated then it won't matter. Enemies would then never die before an x amount of seconds, making sure the match lasts long enough and everyone gets a chance to shoot at stuff and, even better, it would completely remove the incentive to put out ever greater numbers and allow (or even encourage) players to focus on other things instead.
For private instances these changes don't have to be made, players who want to be done in 2 minutes can still do that by creating their own team. I'm just talking about the queues here that are almost unPUGable not because they're too difficult, but because the instance lasts only a fraction of the time it is supposed to last.
Further, add stuff like Feedback pulse to make pushing out more damage detrimental to the team and it would also make different roles viable. Basically the same stuff that has been proposed by many players here, on many occasions. Perhaps only add those things to Elite missions, perhaps also to Advanced.
*GASP!!*
They speak against the holy ,just and almighty BFaW?....O.O
BLASPHEMERS!!! how DARE you speak such heresy in the hallowed halls of BFaW , within the walls of the holy church of FaW, you shall fall to your knees and REPENT , your sins against BFaW fo you have forgotten the ten commandents of the FaW.
1 : Thou shalt never speak against BFaW
2 : Thou shalt not have any other god...er skill but BFaW
3: Thou shalt not covet science before BFaW and TaC
4: Thou shalt not use thy neighbors , sci console
5: Thou shalt not covet they neighbors sci ship
6: Thou shalt hath not other skill then BFaW
7: Thou shalt offer praise and tributes to BFaW
8: Thou shalt not bear false witness , against BFaW
9: Thou shalt not have any other profession and skill , except TaC and BFaW
10: Thou shalt always praise the glory of the BFaW and TaC
Those who break these ten commandments shall be given a amish style shaming, and be branded a witch
By "us" I mean people with ships ready for Elites. If a map like HSE generally requires an average of 50k per player, then there are:
Of course just being 50k and up doesn't make you generally ready for elites (apart from Korfez, because that's not really up there in difficulty against the other elites) but at that level, I'd say you are on the verge of being ready for it.
Note these numbers are post DPS board wipe, so there may be more above 50k that haven't had an uploaded parse yet.
And if any of your past threads are any indication, only a few dozen of you want harder, longer content for advanced and normal and consider that "fun". What you want is a repeat of Delta Rising where things were more challenging (I actually liked that) but that killed the queues. So I do not think what you are advocating for is "fun for all".
And there really wouldn't be such a thing as "fun for all". Players will have different skill, different capacities to invest time and resources in the game and different ideas of what is fun. That's why I think it is important to have a complete lineup of Elite queues so that those that truly want a challenge can do so while those who want to play more casually can remain in Normal and Advanced.
I don't think you need that. You just have to make pure DPS builds impractical.
An example of that was before HSE was "fixed" by removing super-resistant tactical cubes. Now you may think that resistant enemies just inflate their HP therefore requiring more DPS, but in HSE where things can hit pretty hard, that increase in resistance meant that if you try to kill them via DPS alone, you will lose because they can and will kill you first. This is why 100-150k DPS ISA ships dropped down to 50-80k in HSE. They had to build for more survivability, or check their fire. Also it made it necessary to have tanks or even healers in the team. When Cryptic removed those resistant cubes earlier this year, pure DPS builds can now do HSE. That's why we are seeing really short runs and more people above 100k (pre wipe had 2 or 3 just above 100k, now there are 15 and that's after the recent DPS board wipe).
So in an Elite setting, simply raising NPC resistance while keeping their firepower up can limit the practicality of DPS without really nerfing or artificially capping a player's potential. As long as these Elites pay out well for the effort (heck even awarding accolades for space barbie unlocks will push more players into Elites) I think they will be a hit.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Well you say that it would not take me any efforts, but this is simply not the case.
It took me considerable in-game effort to get where I am now. In-game efforts where I had to do my homework, a lot of homework to get the stuff I want. Also off-game efforts where I had to do a massive amount of research to tinker out what would work out for me and what not. It is basically years of dedication put toward STO. Dedication I can bring because I don’t play anything else.
Even in every single run I do it’s effort for me. And that is the whole point of it. It takes me effort when I lead a group not to overestimate my capabilities and pop half a dozen times. Even in potent groups it takes me effort because only perfect piloting and playing aggressively will bring me into a position where I can half way compete with this game’s elite.
In both cases those matches are not necessarily easy for me but that by choice, not my design! Sure I could take it easy and perhaps sometimes I even do but in general this is not the case because it would kill my ambition to play.
As far as the solo stuff is concerned I’d like to point out to you that most of the performances you see in youtube videos are not just done on the fly but also took multiple tries and probably even different strategic approaches to get it right. Also not necessarily easy for the person who has done it.
I can’t argue with you that contend as a whole has become too easy for the best of PvEers in STO. Especially advanced maps which are the most fun to play by everybody and which sadly miss an elite version.
Still advanced is the common ground we all meet and where we have to make the best of it. And that is what I ask for here instead of nagging cryptic to change what works. A lot of elite players cope with the situation by simply setting their personal goals. DPS records, speed runs, low level builds, full tanking, full sci. If one does such a thing and thrives upon it the map suddenly feels not easy.
You think on my 168k DPS tac run I did with cannons on a fragile escort I had an easy time? I did not because two 100k+ beam players in team where chasing me. With 128k DPS I also ended up on #6 in the engineering DPS leaderboard of the metal league. You know how I ended up there? I did a full agro run as a tank in a weak pug group which was also far from easy. ISA can get tough if you are the target of every critter on stage and still try to rock it fast!
Long speech short. Everybody can become as good and step out of the role of a spectator and thereby loose the “easy” game impression as a result of power creep. It also does not really matter if you do 10k or 100k, just play with enthusiasm and dedication and it will work.
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The only time low DPS becomes difficult is when everyone is below the DPS threshold the map was designed for.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Well said again. Of course it takes time and effort to learn, but all the dissenting voices like to just claim that DPS is 'mashing the space bar' and poof.. you pull 100k. A belief that's obviously false.
What you have in this thread are a couple of very vocal players that would like everyone brought down to their level and they're trying to present their argument as being what's 'best for the game.' Really, what they mean is that they want the game tailored to their specific skill set (or lack of it.)
Sadly, your posts are falling mostly on deaf ears because these people aren't going to listen to any other side of the argument. You have already explained in a very descriptive way why the 'bringing everyone down' strategy doesn't work, but as usual, they just glossed over it without even bothering to consider it.
In addition to the figures @e30ernest gave you I’d like to point out to you that “fun for all” is sadly something we are unlikely to ever get. I would even go so far as to say that if the elite worthy players got their elite mode of CC it could be that the fun for them or “us” could come at the expense of a lot of players which suddenly find themselves in trouble and/or in very long advanced matches when the elite players miss out there.
I think I understand the perspective of every player in this thread. Reason is that I took the entire path from bottom to top (or at least top 40) myself. I play with the best DPSer in STO and with the most noobish pug. I like it and them all because I know how to handle it and, whats more important, play a game which enables me to acquired the means to handle it in the first place.
All I ask is that peeps please consider a bit what they ask or wish for here.
As it currently stands, and that by only looking at the number of people taking part in the CCA event, this one is the most popular event in almost 2 years. It puts other events like mirror and especially breach to shame, not to mention the rest of the available content. There are likely to be a lot of reasons for that, with current power creep conditions only being one, but the result is clear.
We can log on into STO. Just queue up and play without trouble or going into great lengths for whatever reasons.
As somebody who basically only plays teamed PVE in this game this is something which we should not take for granted after Delta Rising and what I simply don’t want to lose again.
The majority seems to have a good time doing CC and that is really awesome for a change.
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I understand and thank you for your nice words sea.
For me it’s just that I’m currently very happy in STO. It makes me proud to see so many players around (in here, in game) that have managed to reclaim the public content after a state where it was totally barren. They took great effort to do so and now have the right to enjoy it in my opinion. Any drastic change could take it away again in a flash. You and I could still have a good time in the league then because we are good enough. Others may not and leave again.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Agreed, even though some don't see it, I think the game is more accessible to everyone now then it's been in quite a long time. The 'good' players, the 'average' players and those still learning are all grouped together and no one suffers as a result. I like that I can enter a public queue and not have to worry about it being a total waste of my time. Yes, it's possible that I'm going to have to shoulder the bulk of the load, it's also possible that I'm going to get to cruise, but either way.. the content is accessible.
Those that feel left out because they don't feel they contribute enough on a team are free to take the time and effort that people like us have spent and work on getting better. STO is one of the only MMO's I have ever seen where knowledge isn't horded or given only to those that 'earn it.' Anyone that wants to learn simply has to ask. If however, they don't wish to put in the effort, that's ok too.. they can do what they can knowing that others have the ability to make up for the deficiency. I never really know what I'm going to get when I queue up, and like you.. I like that.
I feel that the game currently is all inclusive. I understand some still feel left out, but they can easily fix that if they wish.
You are right that STFs are now more inclusive rather than exclusive. The meta still exists but it isn't something everyone has to subscribe to if they want to get past the normal, or even advanced difficulties.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
It is annoying, when you want to stack a few skills, or urgently Need a heal and you hit the button and nothing happens...
while in advanced Mission normally you die once or twice at a max and you just do less damage. But in elite this could be a huge problem
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
That list counts alts though (my engineer and sci captains are counted once per career for example) but as far as "unique" @handles go, there are 1306 individual players with at least 1 character above 50k.
Note this is a table that was reset at the end of April. So that list is pretty current I think.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I don’t know how much you payed attention to recent events in the DPS land. Cannons have managed to get in the 240k+ reach (yes on a split in a channel run but still). Also thanks to more and more synergetic effects sci abilities with respective traits and skills are on a new height I haven’t witnessed in the four years I’m am around.
As things are now, neither refusing to use fire at will nor putting heavy emphasis on sci abilities would exclude you from high places on the DPS leaderboard under current conditions.
I think the remaining PvE boundaries are more within us than in the actual game.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Anyone that thinks FAW is required or the only way is completely and totally wrong. Sure, the cannon builds are a little harder to play, they take a bit more skill and better positioning. This however, is still STO and nothing in this game is actually hard given at least a minimal amount of effort.
A hard cap would maybe solve your particular problem but would cause a problem for others, in particular all those that hit the hard cap. One of the key points of RPG's / MMO's is the ability to progress normally done via getting better gear / more abilites / more shinies while you play through the game. Why should any player that hits such a hard cap play the game any more (aside from new story mission once every couple of months)? With a hard cap, the game tells such a player that he has reached maximum progress. No more reason to buy any ships, no more reason to get better gear, no more crafting, no interest in mission rewards, no more reason to get dil/EC/Zen at that point. A hard cap simply goes against one of the most basic reasons for playing a game like STO simply by removing the want/need for further progress. And it would also mean less players willing to spend/time money on the game which is something Cryptic certainly has no interest in.
Why is that ridiculous? The high number crew a.k.a. DPS gurus consist of maybe 5 percent of the total play base.
Even if they consisted of 10% then the developers would still have to tailor their content for the group which does not achieve the large numbers.
In the best case scenario the average is a mere 20k DPS (probably lower) so the content should be tailored for that number.
I'm also not convinced that the high numbers are intended by the developers and in my opinion it is only a matter of time before tweaks are made.
Something like making the powers non stacking. Activate one power and put others on global cool down. Use global cool downs to prevent people from circumventing the CD completely etc.
This will only have a significant impact on the high DPS crowd and not on the average Joe.
Well, I say people who think a game is a waste of time if they don't win every time, can't really like the game all that much.
To quote the Daleks, "this is not war, this is pest control." I'd rather have a war.
One can argue if using unintended side effects is enough to be considered "good" especially since large portions are using copy/paste builds without understanding the mechanics behind it.
Calling them exploits would be taking it a step too far, but it would be a small step hardly worth mentioning.
Too many things have an unintentional stacking effect and it is not a question IF it will be rectified, but only WHEN this will happen.
Concentrate on piloting and teamwork instead of worshiping stacking mechanics. For those who fancy stacking, even after the current situation is rectified it is inevitable that new powers/traits are introduced which stack unintended.
However, for now things have gone out of control/gone off the deep end and complaining about a future rectification is a fools errant.
Success is success is success. Some have it, others jealously whine it doesn't count because they're doing it "the wrong way."
No, they are that because a developer has addressed them as such in the past.
Face up to the reality that things will change sooner or later. The only question is how far up the priority list are the required changes. For the moment AoY and the summer event take priority, but how long will that last?
With a lot of commentary from the development team.
And the results of 11.5 are pretty clear in terms of this overall discussion and theme.