I think the playerbase in general is also suffering from something else. Apparantly we are so used to power creep already that some people are considering it a good thing that players can solo the highest difficulty missions and carry everyone who shouldn't be playing that content in the first place.
Give back some meaning to the difficulty levels. Perhaps 'advanced' content shouldn't be the standard. Right now, it seems most people are thinking that everyone should be able to complete what is supposed to be advanced content and that, if they're not able to do it, one player should be able to carry the entire team. Sorry, but that's not my idea of what 'advanced' is supposed to be.
@risian4 well.since you are asking for.hard caps again I will just quote myself /quote You want damage Hard Caps?
Let's say the absolute maximum DPS you can do is capped to 50k (Advanced requires around 18K-ish DPS to steamroll and Elite about 35k-40k) this means the 75k+ players will be performing their absolute maximum @50k dps AND will be able to cut off the now Useless consoles/powers that have no additional effect allowing them.to slot other powers /skills to improve survivability or just throw in gimmicks to have more fun with a build BUT the lower dps crowd will not change and the lower dps crowd (60-70% of the players) won't be able to slot all that extra stuff because they haven't hit that hard cap! "THAT'S NOT FAIR! HE HAS ALL THOSE COOL POWERS AND DOES ALL THAT DAMAGE!" /end quote
Fact of the matter is a Hard Cap while successfully lowering max dps will not balance the power as the strong players will remain strong and be able to add more gimmicks and survival skills while the low-average players will stay the same. Basically the gap would remain just in a different way!
@risian4 well.since you are asking for.hard caps again I will just quote myself
/quote
You want damage Hard Caps?
Let's say the absolute maximum DPS you can do is capped to 50k (Advanced requires around 18K-ish DPS to steamroll and Elite about 35k-40k) this means the 75k+ players will be performing their absolute maximum @50k dps AND will be able to cut off the now Useless consoles/powers that have no additional effect allowing them.to slot other powers /skills to improve survivability or just throw in gimmicks to have more fun with a build BUT the lower dps crowd will not change and the lower dps crowd (60-70% of the players) won't be able to slot all that extra stuff because they haven't hit that hard cap! "THAT'S NOT FAIR! HE HAS ALL THOSE COOL POWERS AND DOES ALL THAT DAMAGE!"
/end quote
Fact of the matter is a Hard Cap while successfully lowering max dps will not balance the power as the strong players will remain strong and be able to add more gimmicks and survival skills while the low-average players will stay the same. Basically the gap would remain just in a different way!
The only gap that would remain would be between one group who would be able to use funny powers and as you call it 'gimmicks' and extra stuff, and the rest, that's likely to be true indeed.
But I doubt anyone cares if someone else is using nice extra stuff. What they are more likely to care about, is whether or not someone else is 'steamrolling' the entire instance before the rest of the team has a chance to do anything.
Like someone else already stated: the ability to slot gimmick powers is not the problem that's being discussed here, as that perceived problem is currently non-existent. And unlikely to ever exist, I might add.
Give back some meaning to the difficulty levels. Perhaps 'advanced' content shouldn't be the standard. Right now, it seems most people are thinking that everyone should be able to complete what is supposed to be advanced content and that, if they're not able to do it, one player should be able to carry the entire team. Sorry, but that's not my idea of what 'advanced' is supposed to be.
The highest difficulty is always the standard.
That just doesn't make any sense.
'Standard' would be what represents the difficulty appropriate for the bulk of the players.
If the highest difficulty is always the standard, then that would mean for this game that Elite, or for some queues advanced, is the right standard and the right content for everyone. But if that's the case and everyone can play it, either by being carried or not, then there's nothing advanced or elite about it.
Not everyone is or is supposed to be advanced or elite, that's always a minority who set themselves apart from what can be considered 'normal' or average. Just like in real life, really.
So yeah, most players aren't supposed to be in Advanced if it's the highest difficulty available. Saying that because they are there anyway, that it's a good thing that 1 player can carry the entire instance is, simply put, ignoring the problem. It would be the same as saying, 'because not everyone is able to get an academic degree, it would be more than acceptable that 1 person can get one for four other people'.
(And yes, I do realise we're discussing a game here. Just an example to show that 'standard' doesn't mean what you think it means here. The 'highest' of something is never the standard, that's as contradictory as it can get.)
Are you really saying that you think punishing players for being too good is a good idea?
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and will be a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep. I'm not suggesting we punish anyone. We would all benefit if these crazy numbers were brought down a bit.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
Are you really saying that you think punishing players for being too good is a good idea?
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
You don't even know what you are talking about, do you? The game was designed to be DPSed. They make NPCs stacks of hitpoints and then stick timers on stuff, with better rewards for doing it faster. Then, when they revise NPCs, they made them even larger stacks of hitpoints and then released a f**king tonne of power-leap.
And your solution? "I don't like that these players do so much damage, I want them capped at a fraction of their potential" - you are not a voice of reason.
Reason would say make content that is not designed to be DPSed right from the start - not artificially gut players of effectiveness to meet arbitrary demands that -at best, because they could easily be pure envy- are because of bad game design.
Except Risian you ARE advocating punishing good players. You think I just woke up yesterday and said "hey I'll think ill make a 80k dps ship today!"? If you do you're crazy! Ask anyone on my friends list or in my Fleet/Armada and they will tell.you the same thing! I am ALWAYS testing something new to add to my ship. I am ALWAYS experimenting.with different skill combinations to improve my DPS. And I'd like an honest viable answer why I should be punished and have my efforts devalued for the sake of a player that has probably played 1/3 of the time I have or hasn't gotten all.the things I slaved through countless STFs and Converting the dil to zen to trade keys for EC to get the things I want. Why should I be punished?!
Are you really saying that you think punishing players for being too good is a good idea?
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
Reason would say make content that is not designed to be DPSed right from the start - not artificially gut players of effectiveness to meet arbitrary demands that -at best, because they could easily be pure envy- are because of bad game design.
Which is exactly what I proposed in one of my earlier posts. Did you even read my comments or just pick the parts you didn't like and criticize those?
We've gone full circle. First, power creep is a normal occurrence in the life of an MMO. It keeps things MMO afloat and it keeps players engaged. Hard caps would kill this game.
Second, you are looking at this power creep from the point of view of an Advanced player. Yes the DPS is too much for advanced. But they should not be nerfed to fit the advanced level. That's like saying 15k is too much because 3k is enough for Normal. These players should be playing Elite.
The problem isn't solely the power creep but the fact that the content has not kept up with the power creep. Your using a map that's several years old to gauge the current power creep.
What we need are proper challenging and rewarding elites. Give us the Elite versions of the most popular queues already. That way the highest end can move on. Make Elite truly a challenge where high-end builds and good pilots are required and make it pay out well.
Except Risian you ARE advocating punishing good players. You think I just woke up yesterday and said "hey I'll think ill make a 80k dps ship today!"? If you do you're crazy! Ask anyone on my friends list or in my Fleet/Armada and they will tell.you the same thing! I am ALWAYS testing something new to add to my ship. I am ALWAYS experimenting.with different skill combinations to improve my DPS. And I'd like an honest viable answer why I should be punished and have my efforts devalued for the sake of a player that has probably played 1/3 of the time I have or hasn't gotten all.the things I slaved through countless STFs and Converting the dil to zen to trade keys for EC to get the things I want. Why should I be punished?!
When did I ever say that it was easy for you to reach that DPS number? I never did.
This is exactly the attitude that non-DPS'ers laugh about: even mentioning a possible limit to DPS and the crowd goes crazy, Pavlovian responses follow and they start making stuff up, how a suggestion to restore balance is a personal vendetta or something like that. Perhaps you shouldn't take it so personal.
What is being discussed here are game-wide issues. Look beyond the bow of your own starship and a discussion might be possible.
We've gone full circle. First, power creep is a normal occurrence in the life of an MMO. It keeps things MMO afloat and it keeps players engaged. Hard caps would kill this game.
Second, you are looking at this power creep from the point of view of an Advanced player. Yes the DPS is too much for advanced. But they should not be nerfed to fit the advanced level. That's like saying 15k is too much because 3k is enough for Normal. These players should be playing Elite.
The problem isn't solely the power creep but the fact that the content has not kept up with the power creep. Your using a map that's several years old to gauge the current power creep.
What we need are proper challenging and rewarding elites. Give us the Elite versions of the most popular queues already. That way the highest end can move on. Make Elite truly a challenge where high-end builds and good pilots are required and make it pay out well.
As I've stated before, I assume that the power creep from the skill revamp was done mostly because Elites are coming. Hopefully with something more than just inflated amounts of HP and shield points so that 'more DPS' isn't always a solution to beat the content.
But as long as those aren't here, and no indication is given that they are coming, then they should at least restore some balance in the maps that don't have Elite variants (and I'm not just talking about one specific map, there are other map that don't have Elites).
To be honest a cap wouldn't bother me that much. However it wouldn't solve the problem. There are people who for whatever reason refuse or are unable to improve in this game (yes there are a lot of them! Probably close to 30% of the player base) and capping the highest end players while subsequently increasing the difficulty of normal will literally do nothing for the game. The only thing it would accomplish is making the 10% of the player base angry and likely quit. Now you might say we'll good riddance but the fact is there will always be Haves and Have not's and the Have Not's always ENVY the Haves. I see it all the time in MMOS and I've played a ton of em where the payers that aren't playing the best (not the top of the leaderboards) and don't have all the cool gizmos rage about how it's unfair and unbalanced.
Do I get angry when people talk about nerf ing the top 10% of the player base (for better or worse)? Yes I do! I worked hard to get the items and content that allow me to do what I do and having the value of those things stripped away is insulting.to.my time and effort required to get it!
The fact of the matter is that there is no Magic "I Win!" Trick to being a High Dpser. It's all about the skills, consoles, ships, traits, boffs, doffs, weapons, masteries, reputations, and knowledge you have and use and MOST of that is based off time!
Yes you CAN PAY to bypass that time BUT that's all it does. You pay real money to get Zen to buy things you want or trade things for real Money for items in game bypassing the time required.of Converting Dil to Zen. Have I bought Zen to speed up my progress? Yes! But I'd say almost 60% of my Zen usage is from Dilithium Conversion.
So again I'll ask. Why should the Top Players in STO be punished for being at the top? Just because you (not directed at anyone personally) feel they need to be brought to your level? Because the game needs balance to provide a proper challenge (need to look at the game not the player on this one!)? Because they have things you don't have? Because you feel your immersion and fun is insulted by good players?
The questions are innumerable and I have yet to see a valid reason as to why it's always people in.the lower brackets (low dps players for want of a better description) that want the high DPS players nerfed or have core game.mechanics nerfed woth the end result only hurting.the top tier players. Fact is that's not balance! That's pure and simple vindictive envy at work that only serves to pit the Masses against the so called Elites! It's the classic "Your better than me and that's not fair!" Response. Balance would be the addition of content that REWARDS those higher players for being better. Scaling rewards based.on completion time. Scaling rewards that actually make the higher end content like Elite queues more valuable than 3 Advanced Queues. That's balance people!
Edit: And no I'm not 1 of the "Elites" I don't rub elbows with the STO 1337, Im.not rocking a 200k dps build, I can't solo HSE. Since I started playing back in the Beta I've always seen the top tiered players as a goal to reach. I want to reach those levels through my own means and my own path (not the one that everyone copies and gravitated towards) and I've always been pretty successful at it. The hatred of the dps crowd is something I've never understood because I find it endlessly fun to try to.match that guy that vaped am entire STF in 6 seconds with my own style of play!
A reward at the expense of another is not a reward. It's an appeasement of 1 person crying louder plain and simple. You say that the low dps players are suffering because of high dpsers? I wonder how many players would be where they are now if it weren't for that 1 guy steamroll ing that STF instead of them getting a group of equal skill level that fails after 20 minutes of grinding away at the mission (I HAD THIS HAPPEN SOO.MUCH YEARS AGO AND IT WAS UNBELIEVABLY INFURIATING) how many people remember screaming in chat about the Nanites are coming! Or Probes!!!! Only to be ignored and have the mission fail? Fact is I'd prefer having 1 guy face roll the game carrying me thru it so I can get an easy reward as opposed to.wasti g a half hour for nothing.
Edit: I'll let Picard say it for me about appeasing the masses at the expense of the minority (and the dps elite are a minority) https://youtu.be/ibEJoNyDDgw
To be honest a cap wouldn't bother me that much. However it wouldn't solve the problem. There are people who for whatever reason refuse or are unable to improve in this game (yes there are a lot of them! Probably close to 30% of the player base) and capping the highest end players while subsequently increasing the difficulty of normal will literally do nothing for the game. The only thing it would accomplish is making the 10% of the player base angry and likely quit. Now you might say we'll good riddance but the fact is there will always be Haves and Have not's and the Have Not's always ENVY the Haves. I see it all the time in MMOS and I've played a ton of em where the payers that aren't playing the best (not the top of the leaderboards) and don't have all the cool gizmos rage about how it's unfair and unbalanced.
Do I get angry when people talk about nerf ing the top 10% of the player base (for better or worse)? Yes I do! I worked hard to get the items and content that allow me to do what I do and having the value of those things stripped away is insulting.to.my time and effort required to get it!
The fact of the matter is that there is no Magic "I Win!" Trick to being a High Dpser. It's all about the skills, consoles, ships, traits, boffs, doffs, weapons, masteries, reputations, and knowledge you have and use and MOST of that is based off time!
Yes you CAN PAY to bypass that time BUT that's all it does. You pay real money to get Zen to buy things you want or trade things for real Money for items in game bypassing the time required.of Converting Dil to Zen. Have I bought Zen to speed up my progress? Yes! But I'd say almost 60% of my Zen usage is from Dilithium Conversion.
So again I'll ask. Why should the Top Players in STO be punished for being at the top? Just because you (not directed at anyone personally) feel they need to be brought to your level? Because the game needs balance to provide a proper challenge (need to look at the game not the player on this one!)? Because they have things you don't have? Because you feel your immersion and fun is insulted by good players?
The questions are innumerable and I have yet to see a valid reason as to why it's always people in.the lower brackets (low dps players for want of a better description) that want the high DPS players nerfed or have core game.mechanics nerfed woth the end result only hurting.the top tier players. Fact is that's not balance! That's pure and simple vindictive envy at work that only serves to pit the Masses against the so called Elites! It's the classic "Your better than me and that's not fair!" Response. Balance would be the addition of content that REWARDS those higher players for being better. Scaling rewards based.on completion time. Scaling rewards that actually make the higher end content like Elite queues more valuable than 3 Advanced Queues. That's balance people!
Edit: And no I'm not 1 of the "Elites" I don't rub elbows with the STO 1337, Im.not rocking a 200k dps build, I can't solo HSE. Since I started playing back in the Beta I've always seen the top tiered players as a goal to reach. I want to reach those levels through my own means and my own path (not the one that everyone copies and gravitated towards) and I've always been pretty successful at it. The hatred of the dps crowd is something I've never understood because I find it endlessly fun to try to.match that guy that vaped am entire STF in 6 seconds with my own style of play!
I don't play other games, but from what I've seen here in STO, most people only complain if something is entirely unavailable to them. Like event ships that are being retired. And of course there's the occasional FAW thread, but complaining about gimmicks that are not available? I haven't seen too much of that, not much more than other topics at least.
Just for the record, I'm no low DPS player. I can keep up with most elite players, both on ground and in space. My own DPS is well above 15k so when I'm advocating change, it's not for my own benefit but rather because I believe that, given the current situation, players will likely be driven away from the queues sooner or later.
Also, I'm still waiting on some responses to my own questions: does anyone here really think that there isn't a problem when players can have 10 times the DPS needed to complete 90% of the game? And easily (and yes, getting to 45-60k is relatively easy) have 3 or 4 times the DPS needed to do that?
There seems to be at least one point that most of us are agreed on: that there is no content available to support such insane DPS numbers. Now, the solution that most are proposing is 'add elite queues'. But we all know what will happen next: more power creep will be sold, and soon those Elites will become too easy for the top players too, in that they can carry entire teams there.
Which is why I believe that rebalancing is needed, and then add new content on a higher difficulty that is more than just enemies with greater amounts of HP and SPs. You can't keep adding higher difficulties and allow power creep to continuously get out of hand.
At one point, rebalancing becomes necessary and we've reached that point. It's either that, or have the game be unplayable because most missions are over before you realise you're in it. Or enemies destroyed before you can even reach them. The current situation is simply not sustainable.
To be honest a cap wouldn't bother me that much. However it wouldn't solve the problem.
As you insist on misidentifying the problem, it is unavoidable to believe that.
There are people who for whatever reason refuse or are unable to improve
[...]
So again I'll ask. Why should the Top Players in STO be punished for being at the top?
[...]
They wouldn't be punished, but rewarded. With a better game that is more fun to play.
"Rewarded"? That's insane! That's like taking grades away from kids who worked ultra hard at school just because the bottom graded kids got poor grades and saying that it will increase standards because the kids with bad grades will spend less time being jealous and more time studying.
Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds? The kids with poor grades don't care, they're just there because their friends are there. Same goes for people in STO who don't 'do' dps. They don't care about dps. They're only in game because their friends are in game too.
My thinking is that there should be a real academic study about what they do in game and what motivates them to do so. Jumping in to an action that would fundamentally affect the game and how people play it will likely have dire consequences for STO.
Umm....My Paradox is all shinies and barely pulls 10k Dps and I have tons of fun with it...so.i don't get your arguement there. So I don't deal 80% of the damage in an STF who cares? Not hurting me cause I just got free rewards while.flying.my time freeze spamming Anomaly creating self cloning ship! Also who is we? I have no issues buying the shinies I want, I have no issues just pugging with random people, and I certainly have no issues having fun!
I wonder how many players would be where they are now if it weren't for that 1 guy steamroll ing that STF instead of them getting a group of equal skill level that fails after 20 minutes of grinding away at the mission (I HAD THIS HAPPEN SOO.MUCH YEARS AGO AND IT WAS UNBELIEVABLY INFURIATING) how many people remember screaming in chat about the Nanites are coming! Or Probes!!!! Only to be ignored and have the mission fail? Fact is I'd prefer having 1 guy face roll the game carrying me thru it so I can get an easy reward as opposed to.wasti g a half hour for nothing.
Look pal, this is how many of us learnt the missions. We didn't need some epeen waving elitist to come in and "carry" us because we were useless. We failed and we learned from our mistakes. Ok we were in pug runs so it wasn't so much a group learning experience but every time a mission failed all those players went away and wondered wtf happened and tried to play different the next time.
I would much rather learn to play the mission and succeed on my own two feet than be carried by some guys who thinks because he's thrown $$$'s at the game and own all the OP toys under the stars he is doing us a favour!
That's how gamers have been playing for decades. They didn't get better at games by being carried, they got better by learning from errors. In fact it's how most sportsmen/women since the dawn of civilization have improved their skills.
Some players will get carried in some instances, but I think that the number of people making a habit out of it is a minority that is greatly exaggerated in size. Most players want to get better and will only do so from a true gaming experience.
Are you really saying that you think punishing players for being too good is a good idea?
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
Reason would say make content that is not designed to be DPSed right from the start - not artificially gut players of effectiveness to meet arbitrary demands that -at best, because they could easily be pure envy- are because of bad game design.
Which is exactly what I proposed in one of my earlier posts. Did you even read my comments or just pick the parts you didn't like and criticize those?
You've made an invalid assumption, being that you are a voice of reason - when you aren't, because you are still advocating for bags of hitpoints to be DPSed down, you just want less top end DPS.
How about making content that doesn't require DPS at all? How about making content where you actually want to keep your enemies alive? How about making content where you want a 150k HPPS ship and not a 150k DPS ship? How about making content that requires denial of territory to NPCs? Or any other alternative to DPS that takes all of 5 seconds to think of.
These would actually go some way to dealing with the root issue; not just be a bandaid that feels good to you.
Are you really saying that you think punishing players for being too good is a good idea?
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
Reason would say make content that is not designed to be DPSed right from the start - not artificially gut players of effectiveness to meet arbitrary demands that -at best, because they could easily be pure envy- are because of bad game design.
Which is exactly what I proposed in one of my earlier posts. Did you even read my comments or just pick the parts you didn't like and criticize those?
You've made an invalid assumption, being that you are a voice of reason - when you aren't, because you are still advocating for bags of hitpoints to be DPSed down, you just want less top end DPS.
How about making content that doesn't require DPS at all? How about making content where you actually want to keep your enemies alive? How about making content where you want a 150k HPPS ship and not a 150k DPS ship? How about making content that requires denial of territory to NPCs? Or any other alternative to DPS that takes all of 5 seconds to think of.
These would actually go some way to dealing with the root issue; not just be a bandaid that feels good to you.
That would be interesting. But also far less likely to be implemented. Which is why I suggested the alternative: an elite version of the queues where NPC's get more abilities rather than just more HP and SP.
That's not so much because I think my solution is the best one, in fact I prefer yours.
I just played Crystaline on advanced, I did not play STO for a while and I didn't have all my attacks/abilities set up so I was doing that and before I knew it, the game was over. The STF literally only lasted 1-2 minutes. I have never experienced an advanced crystaline that fast before, they would go for 8-15 min usually, never this quickly. What has happened to this game? Things have become OP! They only increase difficulty by making enemy ship DPS sponges but they don't improve AI at all.
On elite, what would make this game a lot harder is the enemy ships actually move toward you and your allies instead of pulling them like a typical MMO while the other enemies remain out of range.
This was addressed and the consensus was (iirc) that it wouldn't be n00b friendly.
If they plan on improving NPC enemy AI then I hope they have the sense to lower HP as well.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Another aspect once I got into doing these a few times a day. The reason is not power creep but in fact its a bug or glitch in the absorption phases. The CE is not absorbing attacks during that phase so with everyone on the map realizing this they just heal right before it attacks. I have seen some maps where this happened and the CE dies before the first absorption phase finishes.
Kinda saddens me though having these kids with their DPS calculators still basing metrics off of a broken combat log roflmao.
Another aspect once I got into doing these a few times a day. The reason is not power creep but in fact its a bug or glitch in the absorption phases. The CE is not absorbing attacks during that phase so with everyone on the map realizing this they just heal right before it attacks. I have seen some maps where this happened and the CE dies before the first absorption phase finishes.
Kinda saddens me though having these kids with their DPS calculators still basing metrics off of a broken combat log roflmao.
Or they are using torpedoes and other forms of non-energy damage to keep damaging it during the absorption phases. When I use energy weapons like plasma, I only see little yellow 1's floating above the entity. With DRB and neutronic torpedoes, I see much larger numbers for the whole duration of the mission.
It's not broken, some weapon types have always had more effect. I think that's intended.
That would be interesting. But also far less likely to be implemented. Which is why I suggested the alternative: an elite version of the queues where NPC's get more abilities rather than just more HP and SP.
That's not so much because I think my solution is the best one, in fact I prefer yours.
Exactly - the problem is bad game design, so we should fix that. It is just Cryptic refuse to fix it...
Comments
Give back some meaning to the difficulty levels. Perhaps 'advanced' content shouldn't be the standard. Right now, it seems most people are thinking that everyone should be able to complete what is supposed to be advanced content and that, if they're not able to do it, one player should be able to carry the entire team. Sorry, but that's not my idea of what 'advanced' is supposed to be.
/quote
You want damage Hard Caps?
Let's say the absolute maximum DPS you can do is capped to 50k (Advanced requires around 18K-ish DPS to steamroll and Elite about 35k-40k) this means the 75k+ players will be performing their absolute maximum @50k dps AND will be able to cut off the now Useless consoles/powers that have no additional effect allowing them.to slot other powers /skills to improve survivability or just throw in gimmicks to have more fun with a build BUT the lower dps crowd will not change and the lower dps crowd (60-70% of the players) won't be able to slot all that extra stuff because they haven't hit that hard cap! "THAT'S NOT FAIR! HE HAS ALL THOSE COOL POWERS AND DOES ALL THAT DAMAGE!"
/end quote
Fact of the matter is a Hard Cap while successfully lowering max dps will not balance the power as the strong players will remain strong and be able to add more gimmicks and survival skills while the low-average players will stay the same. Basically the gap would remain just in a different way!
The only gap that would remain would be between one group who would be able to use funny powers and as you call it 'gimmicks' and extra stuff, and the rest, that's likely to be true indeed.
But I doubt anyone cares if someone else is using nice extra stuff. What they are more likely to care about, is whether or not someone else is 'steamrolling' the entire instance before the rest of the team has a chance to do anything.
Like someone else already stated: the ability to slot gimmick powers is not the problem that's being discussed here, as that perceived problem is currently non-existent. And unlikely to ever exist, I might add.
That just doesn't make any sense.
'Standard' would be what represents the difficulty appropriate for the bulk of the players.
If the highest difficulty is always the standard, then that would mean for this game that Elite, or for some queues advanced, is the right standard and the right content for everyone. But if that's the case and everyone can play it, either by being carried or not, then there's nothing advanced or elite about it.
Not everyone is or is supposed to be advanced or elite, that's always a minority who set themselves apart from what can be considered 'normal' or average. Just like in real life, really.
So yeah, most players aren't supposed to be in Advanced if it's the highest difficulty available. Saying that because they are there anyway, that it's a good thing that 1 player can carry the entire instance is, simply put, ignoring the problem. It would be the same as saying, 'because not everyone is able to get an academic degree, it would be more than acceptable that 1 person can get one for four other people'.
(And yes, I do realise we're discussing a game here. Just an example to show that 'standard' doesn't mean what you think it means here. The 'highest' of something is never the standard, that's as contradictory as it can get.)
First, 'being good' does not equal 'having high DPS'.
More to the point, it's not a matter of punishing anyone, it's restoring some much needed balance between players and NPCs. That will, eventually, contribute to a more stable game and will be a more durable solution than doing nothing and just keep adding more power creep. I'm not suggesting we punish anyone. We would all benefit if these crazy numbers were brought down a bit.
But whatever. There are people here who are defending plain ridiculous situations, like having 150k DPS when 15k is already enough. Those players could solo an instance twice within the time limit. I guess this isn't the right place to call for reason.
You don't even know what you are talking about, do you? The game was designed to be DPSed. They make NPCs stacks of hitpoints and then stick timers on stuff, with better rewards for doing it faster. Then, when they revise NPCs, they made them even larger stacks of hitpoints and then released a f**king tonne of power-leap.
And your solution? "I don't like that these players do so much damage, I want them capped at a fraction of their potential" - you are not a voice of reason.
Reason would say make content that is not designed to be DPSed right from the start - not artificially gut players of effectiveness to meet arbitrary demands that -at best, because they could easily be pure envy- are because of bad game design.
Which is exactly what I proposed in one of my earlier posts. Did you even read my comments or just pick the parts you didn't like and criticize those?
Second, you are looking at this power creep from the point of view of an Advanced player. Yes the DPS is too much for advanced. But they should not be nerfed to fit the advanced level. That's like saying 15k is too much because 3k is enough for Normal. These players should be playing Elite.
The problem isn't solely the power creep but the fact that the content has not kept up with the power creep. Your using a map that's several years old to gauge the current power creep.
What we need are proper challenging and rewarding elites. Give us the Elite versions of the most popular queues already. That way the highest end can move on. Make Elite truly a challenge where high-end builds and good pilots are required and make it pay out well.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
When did I ever say that it was easy for you to reach that DPS number? I never did.
This is exactly the attitude that non-DPS'ers laugh about: even mentioning a possible limit to DPS and the crowd goes crazy, Pavlovian responses follow and they start making stuff up, how a suggestion to restore balance is a personal vendetta or something like that. Perhaps you shouldn't take it so personal.
What is being discussed here are game-wide issues. Look beyond the bow of your own starship and a discussion might be possible.
As I've stated before, I assume that the power creep from the skill revamp was done mostly because Elites are coming. Hopefully with something more than just inflated amounts of HP and shield points so that 'more DPS' isn't always a solution to beat the content.
But as long as those aren't here, and no indication is given that they are coming, then they should at least restore some balance in the maps that don't have Elite variants (and I'm not just talking about one specific map, there are other map that don't have Elites).
Edit: Advanced --> Elite
Do I get angry when people talk about nerf ing the top 10% of the player base (for better or worse)? Yes I do! I worked hard to get the items and content that allow me to do what I do and having the value of those things stripped away is insulting.to.my time and effort required to get it!
The fact of the matter is that there is no Magic "I Win!" Trick to being a High Dpser. It's all about the skills, consoles, ships, traits, boffs, doffs, weapons, masteries, reputations, and knowledge you have and use and MOST of that is based off time!
Yes you CAN PAY to bypass that time BUT that's all it does. You pay real money to get Zen to buy things you want or trade things for real Money for items in game bypassing the time required.of Converting Dil to Zen. Have I bought Zen to speed up my progress? Yes! But I'd say almost 60% of my Zen usage is from Dilithium Conversion.
So again I'll ask. Why should the Top Players in STO be punished for being at the top? Just because you (not directed at anyone personally) feel they need to be brought to your level? Because the game needs balance to provide a proper challenge (need to look at the game not the player on this one!)? Because they have things you don't have? Because you feel your immersion and fun is insulted by good players?
The questions are innumerable and I have yet to see a valid reason as to why it's always people in.the lower brackets (low dps players for want of a better description) that want the high DPS players nerfed or have core game.mechanics nerfed woth the end result only hurting.the top tier players. Fact is that's not balance! That's pure and simple vindictive envy at work that only serves to pit the Masses against the so called Elites! It's the classic "Your better than me and that's not fair!" Response. Balance would be the addition of content that REWARDS those higher players for being better. Scaling rewards based.on completion time. Scaling rewards that actually make the higher end content like Elite queues more valuable than 3 Advanced Queues. That's balance people!
Edit: And no I'm not 1 of the "Elites" I don't rub elbows with the STO 1337, Im.not rocking a 200k dps build, I can't solo HSE. Since I started playing back in the Beta I've always seen the top tiered players as a goal to reach. I want to reach those levels through my own means and my own path (not the one that everyone copies and gravitated towards) and I've always been pretty successful at it. The hatred of the dps crowd is something I've never understood because I find it endlessly fun to try to.match that guy that vaped am entire STF in 6 seconds with my own style of play!
Edit: I'll let Picard say it for me about appeasing the masses at the expense of the minority (and the dps elite are a minority)
I don't play other games, but from what I've seen here in STO, most people only complain if something is entirely unavailable to them. Like event ships that are being retired. And of course there's the occasional FAW thread, but complaining about gimmicks that are not available? I haven't seen too much of that, not much more than other topics at least.
Just for the record, I'm no low DPS player. I can keep up with most elite players, both on ground and in space. My own DPS is well above 15k so when I'm advocating change, it's not for my own benefit but rather because I believe that, given the current situation, players will likely be driven away from the queues sooner or later.
Also, I'm still waiting on some responses to my own questions: does anyone here really think that there isn't a problem when players can have 10 times the DPS needed to complete 90% of the game? And easily (and yes, getting to 45-60k is relatively easy) have 3 or 4 times the DPS needed to do that?
There seems to be at least one point that most of us are agreed on: that there is no content available to support such insane DPS numbers. Now, the solution that most are proposing is 'add elite queues'. But we all know what will happen next: more power creep will be sold, and soon those Elites will become too easy for the top players too, in that they can carry entire teams there.
Which is why I believe that rebalancing is needed, and then add new content on a higher difficulty that is more than just enemies with greater amounts of HP and SPs. You can't keep adding higher difficulties and allow power creep to continuously get out of hand.
At one point, rebalancing becomes necessary and we've reached that point. It's either that, or have the game be unplayable because most missions are over before you realise you're in it. Or enemies destroyed before you can even reach them. The current situation is simply not sustainable.
"Rewarded"? That's insane! That's like taking grades away from kids who worked ultra hard at school just because the bottom graded kids got poor grades and saying that it will increase standards because the kids with bad grades will spend less time being jealous and more time studying.
Do you have any idea how dumb that sounds? The kids with poor grades don't care, they're just there because their friends are there. Same goes for people in STO who don't 'do' dps. They don't care about dps. They're only in game because their friends are in game too.
My thinking is that there should be a real academic study about what they do in game and what motivates them to do so. Jumping in to an action that would fundamentally affect the game and how people play it will likely have dire consequences for STO.
Look pal, this is how many of us learnt the missions. We didn't need some epeen waving elitist to come in and "carry" us because we were useless. We failed and we learned from our mistakes. Ok we were in pug runs so it wasn't so much a group learning experience but every time a mission failed all those players went away and wondered wtf happened and tried to play different the next time.
I would much rather learn to play the mission and succeed on my own two feet than be carried by some guys who thinks because he's thrown $$$'s at the game and own all the OP toys under the stars he is doing us a favour!
That's how gamers have been playing for decades. They didn't get better at games by being carried, they got better by learning from errors. In fact it's how most sportsmen/women since the dawn of civilization have improved their skills.
Some players will get carried in some instances, but I think that the number of people making a habit out of it is a minority that is greatly exaggerated in size. Most players want to get better and will only do so from a true gaming experience.
You've made an invalid assumption, being that you are a voice of reason - when you aren't, because you are still advocating for bags of hitpoints to be DPSed down, you just want less top end DPS.
How about making content that doesn't require DPS at all? How about making content where you actually want to keep your enemies alive? How about making content where you want a 150k HPPS ship and not a 150k DPS ship? How about making content that requires denial of territory to NPCs? Or any other alternative to DPS that takes all of 5 seconds to think of.
These would actually go some way to dealing with the root issue; not just be a bandaid that feels good to you.
That would be interesting. But also far less likely to be implemented. Which is why I suggested the alternative: an elite version of the queues where NPC's get more abilities rather than just more HP and SP.
That's not so much because I think my solution is the best one, in fact I prefer yours.
This was addressed and the consensus was (iirc) that it wouldn't be n00b friendly.
If they plan on improving NPC enemy AI then I hope they have the sense to lower HP as well.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Kinda saddens me though having these kids with their DPS calculators still basing metrics off of a broken combat log roflmao.
Or they are using torpedoes and other forms of non-energy damage to keep damaging it during the absorption phases. When I use energy weapons like plasma, I only see little yellow 1's floating above the entity. With DRB and neutronic torpedoes, I see much larger numbers for the whole duration of the mission.
It's not broken, some weapon types have always had more effect. I think that's intended.
Exactly - the problem is bad game design, so we should fix that. It is just Cryptic refuse to fix it...