Based on what I'm reading elsewhere, it sounds like they're trying to use the fact that users ever logged in with a Windows client — e.g., using a Wineskin wrapper while the Mac client was broken during New Dawn launch, or after the closure announcement to explore options to continue playing — to decide that those users aren't Mac users.
Again, totally unacceptable.
If that is true which we are just guessing might be one of the reasons, where do we stand legally ?, as on the front page of this very thread it advertises Wine and encourages us if we wish to continue playing STO to use one of the Windows emulators.
WHO broke the MAC Client when they launched New Dawn ?.
So if our guess is true as to one of the reasons we are ineligible, instead of finding a way back into the game to take part in the Mirror Incursion and support the new content release we should have done nothing and waited for them to fix it ?.
I used the Wine Wrapper as a fellow player posted it in the support sub forums,
I am waiting to hear back from support on this; if they have determined that signing in to ARC on a friends computer to get a give-a-way or after 02/04/2016 with WIne or Play on Mac that we are not considered to be Mac users that was a bit shady on their part, they specifically told us to look for alternative ways to sign in.
I don't know about others but the refund given to me is going right back into the game, I enjoy playing it with the friend I have made online also it is my relaxation after a day of work
"Our development team have provided us a list of Mac users only included accounts that had exclusively used a Mac to play STO. Logins from a PC or PC emulator to an account would disqualify it from reimbursement/refund. Thank you for your understanding and feel free to let us know if we can do anything else for you."
"Our development team have provided us a list of Mac users only included accounts that had exclusively used a Mac to play STO. Logins from a PC or PC emulator to an account would disqualify it from reimbursement/refund. Thank you for your understanding and feel free to let us know if we can do anything else for you."
I guess that makes sense. Perhaps a bit overly paranoid, but logical.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
While it does make sense it is not logical..... My online time through PC up until this week was 20 minutes (this is tracked in the ARC Application) there is no way I have 5 toons to level 60 in 20 minutes of game time. They realized how much this would ultimately cost and are now looking for loop holes to get out of following through on their initial statements. They probably realized the Mac based users is larger than they initially though and are now looking at hurting their bottom line this quarter
No, it really doesn't make sense. I used an emulator only while the Mac client was broken, switching back the day it was fixed. It ran too poorly on my machine for gameplay other than playing the auction house.
Given the magnitude of the error they've made, having to can an entire platform, I think it's reasonable to expect them to err on the side of generosity rather than trying to exclude anyone they can possibly exclude.
While it does make sense it is not logical..... My online time through PC up until this week was 20 minutes (this is tracked in the ARC Application) there is no way I have 5 toons to level 60 in 20 minutes of game time. They realized how much this would ultimately cost and are now looking for loop holes to get out of following through on their initial statements. They probably realized the Mac based users is larger than they initially though and are now looking at hurting their bottom line this quarter
So where would you like them to draw the line?
They had to draw a line somewhere....
So where would you like them to draw the line?
They had to draw a line somewhere....
Look at each account and see where it stands maybe.... They have the ability to determine how many times we logged on and through which client and for how long. The also collect information on the operating system used for every user so if they identify a Mac user maybe look at the actual game time on a PC or PC emulator and then make a decision, as I previously said 20 minutes is not nearly enough time to get 5 toons to level 60
Like Eighrichte stated above some Mac users were using Wine or some other kind of emulator while the Mac client was not working, I luckily was on vacation during that time and it did not effect me.
This likely was in the plans for a while, maybe they intentionally broke the Mac client to get some users to use emulators so they could simply say you were not a strict Mac user so you don't qualify as a result they get to keep the money.
I would say: look at what people were using to log in BEFORE the client broke. After the client broke, it's natural to expect that people were exploring options — but unreasonable to expect that those options panned out successfully. Look at the browsers people use to log into their accounts. Look at when the user started playing — was it after the Mac client was released?
And perhaps most importantly, err on the side of the customer.
I would say: look at what people were using to log in BEFORE the client broke. After the client broke, it's natural to expect that people were exploring options — but unreasonable to expect that those options panned out successfully. Look at the browsers people use to log into their accounts. Look at when the user started playing — was it after the Mac client was released?
And perhaps most importantly, err on the side of the customer.
I fully agree, I just checked my subscription and it was started at the release of the Mac client (the official announcement was March 11, 2014). I did try unsuccessfully to play prior to that but if they look at my login history they will easily see that it was not for long as it was unplayable for me pror to the Mac client
Ok I got a final answer from support on the matter which was:
"Hello,
Thank you for the update. You are correct in your understanding. The compensation was intended for those players who exclusively played through the Mac client, and not through an alternate method. Thank you for your understanding.
So Cryptic, based on Retributions statement above, has decided that any user that logged on by any alternative method is not qualified for a refund.
I am going to ask for a Manager or Supervisor to contact me though I do not expect much of a difference from them either. Cryptic is using this ideology to save themselves money.
But it is what it is.... Maybe this should make it to main stream media... maybe if they have to answer questions there they would have a different stance... ultimately they refunded likely 100 users that did not take the proactive step of trying to continue to play when the Mac client was broken but then say in their announcement "For those looking ton continue to play our game after we shut down the Mac client, we would recommend using any of the popular programs to simulate a windows environment on your Mac, including the free software Wine." Basically we are not going to help you play but we sure would not mind your monetary contributions if you figure it out on your own
Highly disgusted by this I am going to talk this over with my brother see if there is anything else that can be done
Yeah, I got this when inquiring about the refund too:
Hello,
Thank you for the update. Our development team have provided us a list of Mac users only included accounts that had exclusively used a Mac to play STO. Logins from a PC or PC emulator to an account would disqualify it from reimbursement/refund. Thank you for your understanding and feel free to let us know if we can do anything else for you.
I only play on a Mac and never used alternate ways to login and I still didn't get the refund. So they're not giving to people who didn't use Wine or anything too. I even told them that they gave me the Mac Pack when the system was down but are not honouring this? I'm doing a follow up because I definitely should be on that list.
At this point, I can see the anger (justified anger btw) boiling over. This could have been easily solved by a multi-tier approach to this. Something like:
1. Have you played on the Mac client before 2/5/2016? If so, here are 10 Master Keys and we hope you keep playing.
2. Did you ever spend real world money for in-game Zen and used the Mac client more often than not? If so, you can either get double the Zen or the full money back. I have a feeling people would have taken double Zen, especially with solutions like using CrossOver or PlayOnMac.
3. Did you have a subscription? If so, you can either get your money back or 25,000 Zen. Your choice.
I don't care how ridiculously OP people think this kind of solution is. At this point, I fear it's about the only solution that is going to make people happy. Plus, offering double Zen back doesn't cost the company a dime if people accept it (and I think they would have done it).
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I did as well; I also had tickets in when the Mac client went down
I actually sent them multiple full OS X crash reports. The copy/paste was a headache, but it was hopes that things could have been fixed.
One of the many Tellarite Goddesses of Beauty!
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
I'm still going back and forth on my ticket. I've been told that no exception will be made for me. I informed them that I don't want an exception made for me; I want the whole policy reviewed, for all Mac users, because it's entirely unreasonable.
So where would you like them to draw the line?
They had to draw a line somewhere....
Look at each account and see where it stands maybe.... They have the ability to determine how many times we logged on and through which client and for how long. The also collect information on the operating system used for every user so if they identify a Mac user maybe look at the actual game time on a PC or PC emulator and then make a decision, as I previously said 20 minutes is not nearly enough time to get 5 toons to level 60
Like Eighrichte stated above some Mac users were using Wine or some other kind of emulator while the Mac client was not working, I luckily was on vacation during that time and it did not effect me.
This likely was in the plans for a while, maybe they intentionally broke the Mac client to get some users to use emulators so they could simply say you were not a strict Mac user so you don't qualify as a result they get to keep the money.
That's too time intensive. Pick some standard that they can use to draw line in the sand so that they can make a clear definition for everyone to understand and follow.
That's too time intensive. Pick some standard that they can use to draw line in the sand so that they can make a clear definition for everyone to understand and follow.
OK, simplest standard. Imperfect, but better than what they've done: use the list they used for the Mac Pack distribution after the New Dawn launch.
That's too time intensive. Pick some standard that they can use to draw line in the sand so that they can make a clear definition for everyone to understand and follow.
OK, simplest standard. Imperfect, but better than what they've done: use the list they used for the Mac Pack distribution after the New Dawn launch.
At least it would be easy to follow and understandable. Good choice.
But the point I was making is that there had to be a line drawn somewhere. And where they choose to draw, while not perfect, was at least easy to communicate. But I do believe that your choice was better.
Hopefully they will see this and rethink their position.
OK, simplest standard. Imperfect, but better than what they've done: use the list they used for the Mac Pack distribution after the New Dawn launch.
I am sure most Mac users would be happy with this as a solution. I also don't think ALL Mac users have been notified they should also put this as a splash screen on the Launcher so everyone can see it not just users of the Forum
So i come home check my email and the Robot at PWE CS has sent me the generic response
Response By Email (Retribution) (02/17/2016 10:24 AM)
Hello,
Thank you for the update. Our development team have provided us a list of Mac users only included accounts that had exclusively used a Mac to play STO. Logins from a PC or PC emulator to an account would disqualify it from reimbursement/refund. Thank you for your understanding and feel free to let us know if we can do anything else for you.
So that New Season that went live in October last year that broke the MAC Client for 3 or so weeks preventing us from logging into the game I guess no allowance, RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY is being taken by Cryptic/PWE over this ? it's simply you used another means to access the game therefore despite it being a fault with OUR GAME CODERS and a major inconvenience at the time bad luck loyal customer. But now that we are discontinuing the MAC Client please feel free to use the very Softwares that have disqualified you from having reimbursement. Please continue to play and pay for our game.
Absolutely disgraceful and i hope PC users are taking notice of this treatment of their fellow players as you guys are players to and it could easily happen to you. Cryptic/PWE obviously do not value their customers one bit.
So what Cryptic/PWE are saying is we should have missed out on the Mirror Event, not logged in and played the new content and shown our support for the game. We should have waited for however long at the time it was for them to fix a problem THEY CREATED.
I am going to speak to trading standards regarding this and see if i have a case for legal action as they have not fulfilled their statement from the original announcement abut the MAC closure.
ITS A TOTAL COPE OUT and the only thing Cryptic/PWE can do for me now is honour the Closure statement.
This has gone for me beyond a refund its about principles. You make a statement about the MAC closure and promises within it and then when the time comes to honour it you alter the deal.
You disqualify those that found a way into the broken game during October, those very people that help support the game and stab them in the back rather than praise and reward their loyalty for sharing ways to get others back online to take part in the Mirror Incursion and Season 11 Launch when the official client was broken.
Am i angry you bet you're shiny metal TRIBBLE i'm angry
Those players that were disqualified due to using Wine Wrapper during the MAC outage when season 11 launched should not be disqualified.
Why should they ? if the MAC Client HAD NOT BEEN BROKEN i know i wouldn't have used any other means to access the game other than Cryptic's/PWE launcher. i mean why would i use an alternative when the normal route would be working.
Therefore Cryptic need to look at during the time of the outage and see what device Customers were using before the outage, if it shows a MAC and at some point after the outage MAC again then reimbursement should be given.
We should not be disqualified because of the Developers failure to provide a working service
This is the biggest point in the whole disqualification debate they are missing. They broke the client. we managed to work around the break, then went back to the client once fixed. It was Cryptic/PWE fault that another access point was used due to them breaking the launcher.
Comments
If that is true which we are just guessing might be one of the reasons, where do we stand legally ?, as on the front page of this very thread it advertises Wine and encourages us if we wish to continue playing STO to use one of the Windows emulators.
WHO broke the MAC Client when they launched New Dawn ?.
So if our guess is true as to one of the reasons we are ineligible, instead of finding a way back into the game to take part in the Mirror Incursion and support the new content release we should have done nothing and waited for them to fix it ?.
I used the Wine Wrapper as a fellow player posted it in the support sub forums,
Didn't it take like 3 weeks or more to resolve ?
I don't know about others but the refund given to me is going right back into the game, I enjoy playing it with the friend I have made online also it is my relaxation after a day of work
https://www.icloud.com/pages/0004RCGQFkKxXVRPt-m3DgTxA#PWE_Mac_Reimbursements
The link is not loading for me
Is there an error? It could just be slow, as the browser needs to load the browser-based version of Apple Pages.
Just stuck with a Apple and Loading under it for 15+ minutes
I guess that makes sense. Perhaps a bit overly paranoid, but logical.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Given the magnitude of the error they've made, having to can an entire platform, I think it's reasonable to expect them to err on the side of generosity rather than trying to exclude anyone they can possibly exclude.
So where would you like them to draw the line?
They had to draw a line somewhere....
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Look at each account and see where it stands maybe.... They have the ability to determine how many times we logged on and through which client and for how long. The also collect information on the operating system used for every user so if they identify a Mac user maybe look at the actual game time on a PC or PC emulator and then make a decision, as I previously said 20 minutes is not nearly enough time to get 5 toons to level 60
Like Eighrichte stated above some Mac users were using Wine or some other kind of emulator while the Mac client was not working, I luckily was on vacation during that time and it did not effect me.
This likely was in the plans for a while, maybe they intentionally broke the Mac client to get some users to use emulators so they could simply say you were not a strict Mac user so you don't qualify as a result they get to keep the money.
And perhaps most importantly, err on the side of the customer.
I fully agree, I just checked my subscription and it was started at the release of the Mac client (the official announcement was March 11, 2014). I did try unsuccessfully to play prior to that but if they look at my login history they will easily see that it was not for long as it was unplayable for me pror to the Mac client
"Hello,
Thank you for the update. You are correct in your understanding. The compensation was intended for those players who exclusively played through the Mac client, and not through an alternate method. Thank you for your understanding.
Regards,
Retribution
Specialist Game Master
Perfect World Entertainment
http://support.arcgames.com/"
So Cryptic, based on Retributions statement above, has decided that any user that logged on by any alternative method is not qualified for a refund.
I am going to ask for a Manager or Supervisor to contact me though I do not expect much of a difference from them either. Cryptic is using this ideology to save themselves money.
But it is what it is.... Maybe this should make it to main stream media... maybe if they have to answer questions there they would have a different stance... ultimately they refunded likely 100 users that did not take the proactive step of trying to continue to play when the Mac client was broken but then say in their announcement "For those looking ton continue to play our game after we shut down the Mac client, we would recommend using any of the popular programs to simulate a windows environment on your Mac, including the free software Wine." Basically we are not going to help you play but we sure would not mind your monetary contributions if you figure it out on your own
Highly disgusted by this I am going to talk this over with my brother see if there is anything else that can be done
I only play on a Mac and never used alternate ways to login and I still didn't get the refund. So they're not giving to people who didn't use Wine or anything too. I even told them that they gave me the Mac Pack when the system was down but are not honouring this? I'm doing a follow up because I definitely should be on that list.
1. Have you played on the Mac client before 2/5/2016? If so, here are 10 Master Keys and we hope you keep playing.
2. Did you ever spend real world money for in-game Zen and used the Mac client more often than not? If so, you can either get double the Zen or the full money back. I have a feeling people would have taken double Zen, especially with solutions like using CrossOver or PlayOnMac.
3. Did you have a subscription? If so, you can either get your money back or 25,000 Zen. Your choice.
I don't care how ridiculously OP people think this kind of solution is. At this point, I fear it's about the only solution that is going to make people happy. Plus, offering double Zen back doesn't cost the company a dime if people accept it (and I think they would have done it).
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
Yup, ditto.
I actually sent them multiple full OS X crash reports. The copy/paste was a headache, but it was hopes that things could have been fixed.
If there are posts here that do not appeal to you, or opinions you disagree with, the best way to deal with that is to resist the urge to add comments. Instead, engage with the content you like! Don't feed the trolls!
That's too time intensive. Pick some standard that they can use to draw line in the sand so that they can make a clear definition for everyone to understand and follow.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
OK, simplest standard. Imperfect, but better than what they've done: use the list they used for the Mac Pack distribution after the New Dawn launch.
At least it would be easy to follow and understandable. Good choice.
But the point I was making is that there had to be a line drawn somewhere. And where they choose to draw, while not perfect, was at least easy to communicate. But I do believe that your choice was better.
Hopefully they will see this and rethink their position.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
I am sure most Mac users would be happy with this as a solution. I also don't think ALL Mac users have been notified they should also put this as a splash screen on the Launcher so everyone can see it not just users of the Forum
Response By Email (Retribution) (02/17/2016 10:24 AM)
Hello,
Thank you for the update. Our development team have provided us a list of Mac users only included accounts that had exclusively used a Mac to play STO. Logins from a PC or PC emulator to an account would disqualify it from reimbursement/refund. Thank you for your understanding and feel free to let us know if we can do anything else for you.
Regards,
Retribution
Specialist Game Master
Perfect World Entertainment
http://support.arcgames.com/
So that New Season that went live in October last year that broke the MAC Client for 3 or so weeks preventing us from logging into the game I guess no allowance, RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY is being taken by Cryptic/PWE over this ? it's simply you used another means to access the game therefore despite it being a fault with OUR GAME CODERS and a major inconvenience at the time bad luck loyal customer. But now that we are discontinuing the MAC Client please feel free to use the very Softwares that have disqualified you from having reimbursement. Please continue to play and pay for our game.
Absolutely disgraceful and i hope PC users are taking notice of this treatment of their fellow players as you guys are players to and it could easily happen to you. Cryptic/PWE obviously do not value their customers one bit.
So what Cryptic/PWE are saying is we should have missed out on the Mirror Event, not logged in and played the new content and shown our support for the game. We should have waited for however long at the time it was for them to fix a problem THEY CREATED.
I am going to speak to trading standards regarding this and see if i have a case for legal action as they have not fulfilled their statement from the original announcement abut the MAC closure.
ITS A TOTAL COPE OUT and the only thing Cryptic/PWE can do for me now is honour the Closure statement.
This has gone for me beyond a refund its about principles. You make a statement about the MAC closure and promises within it and then when the time comes to honour it you alter the deal.
You disqualify those that found a way into the broken game during October, those very people that help support the game and stab them in the back rather than praise and reward their loyalty for sharing ways to get others back online to take part in the Mirror Incursion and Season 11 Launch when the official client was broken.
Am i angry you bet you're shiny metal TRIBBLE i'm angry
Those players that were disqualified due to using Wine Wrapper during the MAC outage when season 11 launched should not be disqualified.
Why should they ? if the MAC Client HAD NOT BEEN BROKEN i know i wouldn't have used any other means to access the game other than Cryptic's/PWE launcher. i mean why would i use an alternative when the normal route would be working.
Therefore Cryptic need to look at during the time of the outage and see what device Customers were using before the outage, if it shows a MAC and at some point after the outage MAC again then reimbursement should be given.
We should not be disqualified because of the Developers failure to provide a working service
This is the biggest point in the whole disqualification debate they are missing. They broke the client. we managed to work around the break, then went back to the client once fixed. It was Cryptic/PWE fault that another access point was used due to them breaking the launcher.