Someone in this thread did not think that Noye could fall in love with someone he only got to know through the logs. Maybe he did or maybe he fell in love with the idea of having a family, who knows and does that distinction really matter? Is it possible and believable?
I don't think it's necessary to assume that he fell in love with the individual. Being denied the aspiration for happiness and family is definitely a common problem in life (without the sci-fi plot devices) and being presented with incontrovertible evidence that life should have been different (if it wasn't for the actions of those that you already resent) is a pretty good personal basis for antagonism. It's not the same flavor of Annorax's (Noyes can only imagine) but it's sufficient for him to finally turn against the Alliance.
Then add on top of that the dramatic overtones (just who was lost and how), hugely important implications for the Krenim species (while Noyes is at it, he may as well prevent their destruction at the hands of the Vaadwuar), and direct connection this makes to other species involved in the conflict (ie. the Na'kuhl and the Sphere Builders themselves) and you have a great setup at every level.
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Noye's irrational state of mind is now a threat, a threat that must be removed
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I just don't like the idea of time travel and being able to "fix" things that went wrong. It diminishes the realism that comes from living with the consequences of our actions. Time travel should be used very, very sparingly IMO.
Well, to be clear it's the villains who are planning on using time travel to fix history, putting them in the same company as the Borg in First contact or Darvin in the DS9 tribble episode. There's unlikely to be any validation of the "we'll just fix it after the fact" mentality.
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@valoreah
I agree with you, time travel arcs are bad and seldmly (if ever) done in a good way. but you questioned Noye's motivation not the story arc.
Bringing in the Annorax and its erase-from-time weapon and now the temporal directive and their time-travelling ships was a major mistake as it opens up the can of worms that you mentioned and I do not believe that the writers will be able to resolve it in a consistent, logical, believable and entertaining way.
The technology is out there, it is known and hand-waving it away with "GU timeships and their observation array guard the timeline and so no other renegades have access to it" is just bad and lazy.
It's probably the problem of all stories that go on too long: Either you run out of ideas or your characters and enemies become too powerful or god-like. Who will be our next enemy? The Q-Continuum?
Well, to be clear it's the villains who are planning on using time travel to fix history, putting them in the same company as the Borg in First contact or Darvin in the DS9 tribble episode. There's unlikely to be any validation of the "we'll just fix it after the fact" mentality.
The Alliance had no qualms about using it against the Iconians.
Did you guys learn nothing from Year of Hell or the Annorax Test? 1 tiny thing like restarting that star could've wiped out trillions if the Na'Kuhl were a conquering species (given how unfriendly they are it's not unfeasible). Temporal mechanics get complicated very very fast and once you start a paradox trying to unravel what time does to keep itself intact is like taking a horribly tangled pile of yarn and pulling a string...you don't get very far without making it worse . Edit: also I had no qualms about divide as I kinda went with the mentality of "*insert expletive here* you! I'll do this the Romulan way and just put my disruptor in your back!
The Alliance had no qualms about using it against the Iconians.
Actually the player had a number of occasions to question the use of time travel as a weapon and not everyone responded with a "kill them all, wooo!" attitude. The Alliance had plenty of qualms. And whatever the reluctant intentions were at one point in the story arc that wasn't validated by the ending or how protagonists have approach time travel subsequently. Avoiding the trap of trying to fix history is pretty much Star Trek's comment on the subject (except when whales are involved).
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Is it just me, or does the voice actor for the Xindi rep seem to not know he wasn't playing a reptilian Xindi? The voice was so strikingly out of place.
Temporal mechanics get complicated very very fast and once you start a paradox trying to unravel what time does to keep itself intact is like taking a horribly tangled pile of yarn and pulling a string...you don't get very far without making it worse .
Hence the thing we were trying to get signed.
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This is why temporal wars, and time cop story lines should be avoided. Temporal paradox story lines are hit or miss. Good Sci-Fi writers know this, and it's usually the latter, so they try to avoid them. As I've stated before the whole "right" timeline theme is a purely selfish principle, out of line with Starfleet's enlightened, liberal, attitude. Also, in order to have a "right" timeline, you have to imply there is both a start, and finish, to time itself, with some governing authority (a deity?) implementing it's creative vision over such. Apparently, it's the Starfleet time cops, who have taken it upon themselves to be that governing authority.
Yeah, this is what I'm trying to start to wrap my head around:
Who's ultimately making the call as to what timeline is "right"? Not Walker, as he's seeming to parrot the decisions of the "head" of Temporal Instigations...
And are we going to be able to... mess... with this? As others are asking, why can't we go restart the Na'kuhl star, if not for the decisions of this... temporal instigator... that has elected to declare Dano's trip to allow the Tholians to do so as "right" and any attempts to fix this as "wrong"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
@valoreah
I agree with you, time travel arcs are bad and seldmly (if ever) done in a good way. but you questioned Noye's motivation not the story arc.
I question his motivation because it doesn't make sense. Why get angry over it? We have a time machine. Just use it to find a better outcome for everyone. See? His motivation doesn't make sense.
From what I gather the alliance stopped all Annorax-shenanigans after the two failed attempts that we got to see/play and probably banned its use.
Possible reason: The Annorax is not a time-travel device, it erases whole civilisations or objects from time and once used it cannot be undone (that's how I understood it worked in "Year of Hell").
As to why Noye's angry and cracked? See my previous posts and add the fact that NOONE is doing anything to bring those back that he/we lost.
Everyone seems to be fine with all the losses and the timeline that we have, everyone wants to rebuild now, everyone is relieved that the war is over, everyone sees the dangers of further Annorax-deletions, everyone but Noye.
And that is probably the major problem in STO story-telling: There is only one outcome and one possible resolution for every story. Our characters go through it on rails and have no choice at all.
And are we going to be able to... mess... with this? As others are asking, why can't we go restart the Na'kuhl star, if not for the decisions of this... temporal instigator... that has elected to declare Dano's trip to allow the Tholians to do so as "right" and any attempts to fix this as "wrong"...
It's best to think about it in terms of greatest probability. Say you change something, but the universe that sets up leads to a different set of motivations. They try changing something else, and in some way that's even more radical than what you tried from the beginning. You (still with an eye on history) try to stop them, but that leads you into a back and forth of counter timelines. Eventually that settles into the one timeline that's most likely to keep itself going. That's the paradox and while bad things might still happen in it (even as a direct result of time travel) it's something that you can count on happening (which seems to be the objective of our end of the Temporal Cold War. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to work.)
Basically, don't think about what happens next but how this will ultimately play out.
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We very much were trying to fix history in the arc.
Mission, the arc resolves by refuting the idea.
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From what I gather the alliance stopped all Annorax-shenanigans after the two failed attempts that we got to see/play and probably banned its use.
Possible reason: The Annorax is not a time-travel device, it erases whole civilisations or objects from time and once used it cannot be undone (that's how I understood it worked in "Year of Hell").
As to why Noye's angry and cracked? See my previous posts and add the fact that NOONE is doing anything to bring those back that he/we lost.
Everyone seems to be fine with all the losses and the timeline that we have, everyone wants to rebuild now, everyone is relieved that the war is over, everyone sees the dangers of further Annorax-deletions, everyone but Noye.
And that is probably the major problem in STO story-telling: There is only one outcome and one possible resolution for every story. Our characters go through it on rails and have no choice at all.
I understand completely. This raises the question of who are we (the Alliance) to be determining the future for everyone else? We have the technology (banned or not) and all the time in the world to use it. Why not try?
The answer to that will probably be:
There was a Temporal War (be it the cold war that we saw in ENT or a different one) that nearly destroyed all of time and everyone set down and set up the Temporal Accords so that the timeline that we have now that leads to the Galactic Union is the "correct" timeline and it should not be messed with or else. It is the equivalent of the "Mutually Assured Destruction"-phase that Earth had to go through during the Cold War and that is still in effect in the Middle East.
So in the future we have this big and powerful organisation that keeps watch over all timeline shenanigans and slaps everyone on the wrist if they act up.
As to who the alliance is that they are determining what is right and what is wrong? They are the ones with the big stick who judiciously use violence to keep the status quo.
Maybe we will see the repercussions of Noye's actions and how bad it gets so that we can appreciate the Temporal Accords, after all we only have just one mission in this arc out right now. I will not hold my breath as the STO storyline is already too convoluted and held together with baling wire and plot(black)holes.
You're arguing semantics. The Alliance is happy to use the tech when it suits them, everyone else be damned.
No I'm saying what actually happened, what the arc demonstrated and what its point was with specific examples (ex. the mission: Midnight.) At no point was the arc about fixing history. It was about why we shouldn't. The idea, as bad as it is, needs to be expressed in order for the story to work but under no circumstances can you interpret the "presenting of the other side", as it were, of improving history as the Iconian War's actual argument.
Play through and pay attention to whole missions, not just select intro briefings. It very much seems like you got caught up with an idea mid-series.
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We use a time weapon that can change history as we see fit.
Attempted to and failed. Read that: failed. What does that mean about the intention to change history? It was wrong. The entire arc is about presenting why trying to fix history is wrong.
The game developed an idea and slapped it down. Now the villains are taking it up. Guess what's going to happen?
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
I don't think it's necessary to assume that he fell in love with the individual. Being denied the aspiration for happiness and family is definitely a common problem in life (without the sci-fi plot devices) and being presented with incontrovertible evidence that life should have been different (if it wasn't for the actions of those that you already resent) is a pretty good personal basis for antagonism. It's not the same flavor of Annorax's (Noyes can only imagine) but it's sufficient for him to finally turn against the Alliance.
Then add on top of that the dramatic overtones (just who was lost and how), hugely important implications for the Krenim species (while Noyes is at it, he may as well prevent their destruction at the hands of the Vaadwuar), and direct connection this makes to other species involved in the conflict (ie. the Na'kuhl and the Sphere Builders themselves) and you have a great setup at every level.
It got outsourced. :P
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-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Well, to be clear it's the villains who are planning on using time travel to fix history, putting them in the same company as the Borg in First contact or Darvin in the DS9 tribble episode. There's unlikely to be any validation of the "we'll just fix it after the fact" mentality.
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Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I agree with you, time travel arcs are bad and seldmly (if ever) done in a good way. but you questioned Noye's motivation not the story arc.
Bringing in the Annorax and its erase-from-time weapon and now the temporal directive and their time-travelling ships was a major mistake as it opens up the can of worms that you mentioned and I do not believe that the writers will be able to resolve it in a consistent, logical, believable and entertaining way.
The technology is out there, it is known and hand-waving it away with "GU timeships and their observation array guard the timeline and so no other renegades have access to it" is just bad and lazy.
It's probably the problem of all stories that go on too long: Either you run out of ideas or your characters and enemies become too powerful or god-like. Who will be our next enemy? The Q-Continuum?
Or the whales.
Or the Borg.
Or against the Devidians.
Edit: also I had no qualms about divide as I kinda went with the mentality of "*insert expletive here* you! I'll do this the Romulan way and just put my disruptor in your back!
Actually the player had a number of occasions to question the use of time travel as a weapon and not everyone responded with a "kill them all, wooo!" attitude. The Alliance had plenty of qualms. And whatever the reluctant intentions were at one point in the story arc that wasn't validated by the ending or how protagonists have approach time travel subsequently. Avoiding the trap of trying to fix history is pretty much Star Trek's comment on the subject (except when whales are involved).
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That or we're playing a mission with lots of placeholder objects (see. 28th century republic, FED, and KDF uniforms.)
Hence the thing we were trying to get signed.
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Yeah, this is what I'm trying to start to wrap my head around:
Who's ultimately making the call as to what timeline is "right"? Not Walker, as he's seeming to parrot the decisions of the "head" of Temporal Instigations...
And are we going to be able to... mess... with this? As others are asking, why can't we go restart the Na'kuhl star, if not for the decisions of this... temporal instigator... that has elected to declare Dano's trip to allow the Tholians to do so as "right" and any attempts to fix this as "wrong"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
From what I gather the alliance stopped all Annorax-shenanigans after the two failed attempts that we got to see/play and probably banned its use.
Possible reason: The Annorax is not a time-travel device, it erases whole civilisations or objects from time and once used it cannot be undone (that's how I understood it worked in "Year of Hell").
As to why Noye's angry and cracked? See my previous posts and add the fact that NOONE is doing anything to bring those back that he/we lost.
Everyone seems to be fine with all the losses and the timeline that we have, everyone wants to rebuild now, everyone is relieved that the war is over, everyone sees the dangers of further Annorax-deletions, everyone but Noye.
And that is probably the major problem in STO story-telling: There is only one outcome and one possible resolution for every story. Our characters go through it on rails and have no choice at all.
It's best to think about it in terms of greatest probability. Say you change something, but the universe that sets up leads to a different set of motivations. They try changing something else, and in some way that's even more radical than what you tried from the beginning. You (still with an eye on history) try to stop them, but that leads you into a back and forth of counter timelines. Eventually that settles into the one timeline that's most likely to keep itself going. That's the paradox and while bad things might still happen in it (even as a direct result of time travel) it's something that you can count on happening (which seems to be the objective of our end of the Temporal Cold War. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to work.)
Basically, don't think about what happens next but how this will ultimately play out.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Mission, the arc resolves by refuting the idea.
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The answer to that will probably be:
There was a Temporal War (be it the cold war that we saw in ENT or a different one) that nearly destroyed all of time and everyone set down and set up the Temporal Accords so that the timeline that we have now that leads to the Galactic Union is the "correct" timeline and it should not be messed with or else. It is the equivalent of the "Mutually Assured Destruction"-phase that Earth had to go through during the Cold War and that is still in effect in the Middle East.
So in the future we have this big and powerful organisation that keeps watch over all timeline shenanigans and slaps everyone on the wrist if they act up.
As to who the alliance is that they are determining what is right and what is wrong? They are the ones with the big stick who judiciously use violence to keep the status quo.
Maybe we will see the repercussions of Noye's actions and how bad it gets so that we can appreciate the Temporal Accords, after all we only have just one mission in this arc out right now. I will not hold my breath as the STO storyline is already too convoluted and held together with baling wire and plot(black)holes.
No I'm saying what actually happened, what the arc demonstrated and what its point was with specific examples (ex. the mission: Midnight.) At no point was the arc about fixing history. It was about why we shouldn't. The idea, as bad as it is, needs to be expressed in order for the story to work but under no circumstances can you interpret the "presenting of the other side", as it were, of improving history as the Iconian War's actual argument.
Play through and pay attention to whole missions, not just select intro briefings. It very much seems like you got caught up with an idea mid-series.
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Attempted to and failed. Read that: failed. What does that mean about the intention to change history? It was wrong. The entire arc is about presenting why trying to fix history is wrong.
The game developed an idea and slapped it down. Now the villains are taking it up. Guess what's going to happen?
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yes, actually, they did, because we sued for peace
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"