I am convinced the Na'kuhl were completely justified in calling the temporal authorities hypocritical and in taking whatever action they had to to save their world.
So with foreknowledge just how many other people do we try to go back and save? The Crystaline Entity wiped out a Federation colony. Borg too. Dominion ground offensives cost a lot of lives. Iconians (through the Vaadwuar) destroyed the Krenim homeworld because of what they thought the Krenim might be capable of. And let's not forget Hobus. Hell, you could even go back and start correcting all sorts of other disasters throughout the history of all federation species. The Xindi attack on Earth, for example. Temporal incursions or no, the capability is there. I'm sure with warning from the Temporal Authorities a lot of good could be done. But what would the consequences be? With these kinds modifications and competing factions trying to improve their own histories it's stated in the last mission that the effect is ultimately the destruction of everything. Hence the Temporal Accords. Every change has consequences and those feedback into Armageddon. So you have to just put a stop to it (as best you can) totally. It doesn't matter how well intentioned you may be, the answer is no.
(for more on this point you should also check out Asimov's End of Eternity, which makes a less dramatic argument for why fixing events after the fact is ultimately self-destructive.)
Now, it's sad the Na'kuhl were victims of an attack on their star with less devastating results than a trilithium warhead (so consider what the Tholians might have tried instead if they weren't able to secure the Tox). But fixing history as we see fit isn't an option. Some things have to stick. That's very much the Star Trek standpoint on time travel. Some people have to pay the price for tomorrow to happen (and I'm very much referring to a particular episode here). That's not nice but that's inevitable in life.
That said, you should also keep in mind that we're only part way through the arc. Reconciliation in spite of common beliefs was a very strong theme with the last series but that first required setting up how everyone else was approaching the situation in the wrong way. So, you may just get your glorious moment of the Na'kuhl's star re-igniting in a future episode. But you should also prepare yourself to come to terms with a less-than ideal history, as you must have done after you watched First Contact [how many people died in the Borg attack on Montana, subsequent problems in the arctic, and [implicitly] in later events such as Wolf 359?] or the full spread of Enterprise [see. every problem the Suliban and Sphere Builders created throughout the quadrant]. And that's no war crime.
And before we get carried away here, let me just say that the above is largely just trying to point out that the most recent episode is in keeping with how Star Trek has dealt with bad events in relation to time travel. The heros try to fix things as best as they can but they very often don't get everything right (and they just have to move on knowing this as good as history can be.) People, and even whole populations, still die but at least enough was salvaged for history to keep on going (they NEVER go back and try to perfect things). Cryptic could do a lot better in explaining that standpoint in mission (as it is, the right things are alluded to) but at least they're on the right track so far.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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instead of repairing the star (which was happening in our current timeline right in front of us) we were instructed to go bury it instead by future people in order to preserve their future timeline.
The Lukari scientist (in a story blog) idly speculated after the fact that having the Tox might help work out a way to reverse its effect (on general principles) but it was NEVER established (as far as I've seen, which also includes the TNG episode) that anyone had any capability to really do something. The Tox Uthat was not presented to work both ways after it's killed a star (else why would anyone in the future bother worrying about it? Star turned off? We'll just turn it on again with another device! It's the solar clapper!)
Calm down and think first about just what your premise is and just what might we expect from Star Trek. Did Picard go 'round for a second pass at first contact because the Borg still had some negative impact? Did Daniels try for another timeline where the Suliban didn't launch a terrorist campaign against the sector, the Expanse didn't claim so many lives, and a large part of Florida wasn't destroyed by the Xindi?
Nope. So where's your sense of Star Trek morality when the same idea is being applied here?
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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There's a vast difference between trying to perfect the species via genetic enhancement and assisting a species that just saved our hides in repopulating safely. Especially since it's a species we foolishly annihilated. Frankly I would think that humanity would be a little excessively gung ho about restoring the Humpback Whale population. Of course in the event of any conflict of interest, we can just ask George and Gracie what they want.
1. This is a very wide tangent, don't get too emotionally invested in it here.
2. For the sake of clarity (I'm not going to entertain a long-running discussion on this subject): the question definitely isn't motivation but technology. Preserving a species is very much in the FED ethos (you'll note that I made no comment about that) but the techniques that are absolutely required to do it probably wouldn't have been developed sufficiently in FED society to the point where their engineering could prune the entire set of deleterious recessive alleles responsible for inbreeding depression from a whole genome (there's no acceptable analog to this in the TV shows) with essentially only two examples because that has direct applications to a practice that had disastrous consequences for at least one FED founding member. The will to help would undoubtedly be there but as we know from conservation efforts today that's insufficient to overcome massive biological problems with limited technology and resources.
This is entirely in the realm of speculation but as one who does have some firm ground on which to speculate on this very topic (more so than time travel for example), it's unlikely that the FED could have restored the species by themselves. Never the less, it's nicely assumed that they did (I think there's a background comment at STA in STO about seeing whales in SF bay) but if you follow through with the idea (with the proper background) there's definite problems with it (for a self-consistent fictional reality. For the sake of what feels best I'm sure the humpbacks came back but if we're going to approach this more dispassionately one does have to question that assumption.)
would imagine that it would require extensive observation for generations, but the data would likely more than make up for any trouble considering that helping a species repopulate will likely pop up again at some point.
You also might want to think about the reproductive rate and developmental time of humpback whales. Practically speaking, you wouldn't have any significant observational data from this idea. So during the period when rooting out significant problems was most key (ie. when they could be fixed in the population without an alternative) you wouldn't have any capacity to detect them (except by analyzing and extrapolating the genome, modeling all developmental possibilities, finding those genes responsible for depressive outcomes when expressed as a homozygote, and then creating alternatives [somehow, and that's a big somehow] which wouldn't create other problems in some way [computer programmers may be able to sympathize a bit with this one]. Unless the FED was already in the business of making these kinds of total, genome wide modifications (and from the TV shows, they aren't even by VOY) bringing them to bear on a humpback whale conservation project can't be reasonably expected.)
I'm sorry, but again as nice as the ending to The Voyage Home was there is a bitter after taste if you think it through a bit more. I suspect no one else has to this extent (hence, why we can assume the FED in Star Trek magicked away a truly colossal problem in evo-devo) but there you go.
Well you clearly have a biology education here that surpasses mine. But I'd like to think that somewhere in the 150+ Federation member worlds at the time that there was someone would've had a wider knowledge base.
On the observing for generations remark, I was referring to the whale's slow reproductive rate, it's clearly an ongoing project.
As far as the ethics of the thing, I think the preservation of the species would trump anti-eugenics laws, as again we're not trying to modify them to have superior performance like Julian Bashir, but to correct genetic abnormalities like Miral Paris' spine. And again, when in doubt, ask George and Gracie.
The OP suggested that the time travel arc stuff is worse than Divide et Imperia. I tend to agree. Others disagree. We have all been sharing our thoughts as to why or why not. That's debating the topic.
Umm, no. You're on a tangent of your own making, dead set against time travel stories entirely which is a separate issue. While you make some good and interesting points, my post was never about time travel itself as a plot concept. It was entirely about the immoral and frankly genocidal decision by the temporal powers that be to refuse assistance to the Na'khul for what can only be read as reasons of racist hypocrisy. The comparison to Divide et Impera isn't in a "this sucks like that did!" general way, it's specific in criticizing a story that (like Divide) forces our player captain to participate in a war crime without any chance to object or take a different path.
I am convinced the Na'kuhl were completely justified in calling the temporal authorities hypocritical and in taking whatever action they had to to save their world. Just because doing so would inconvenience others or eliminate a timeline the authorities want to preserve in the future doesn't mean the Na'kuhl should just say "oh, ok since it works better that way for you then fine" and accept the destruction of their world. We wouldn't put up with that sh!te and if anyone tried to enforce it on us we would go to war with them without hesitation. And the story would call us the heroes for fighting for our world, so why aren't the Na'kuhl heroes for fighting for their own home world? It's called out as a racist and hypocritical double standard and that's exactly what it is.
Justification is an interesting word.
According to the Na'Khul ambassador at the Signing, the destruction of the Na'khul star was a critical event that led to the signing of the Temporal Accords.
According to Captain Walker, without the signing of the temporal accords the outcome is "not pretty" including mention of a temporal war that results in reality nearly unmaking itself.
If we take both as true, then we have a situation where saving the Na'khul is also condemning ourselves to a possibly disastrous fate. And possibly a timeline where a temporal war destroys us all. Which is consistent with us being in a Temporal Cold War instead of a Temporal Hot War
If I may be a bit vague, imagine a timeline where say, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't nuked, and instead a ground war occurs in Japan with millions of casualties on both sides. But as soon as Russia gets atomic weapons there's not the precedent of the US having nuclear weapons already and Stalin pushes and kicks off a nuclear war.
I don't now if that's clear, but I'm talking about a single but localized terrible event, that prevents later widespread terrible events.
So if allowing the Na'khul's star to survive actually results in another event on the scale of the Iconian war or worse what is the moral thing to do in your view? We're still "picking winners and losers" fighting on the side of the Na'khul just results in us volunteering our own side for the horrible fate, or worse, dooming us all.
If our characters were given the freedom to act morally, according to the ethics of Star Trek like those on display in Midnight, we would side with the Na'kuhl in their fight to save their world. Instead we are railroaded to side with the temporal authorities who are clearly oppressive genocidal tyrants for deciding the Na'kuhl world is expendable and enforcing it remain destroyed. We are forced to side with the villains. THAT is why it's worse that Divide et Impera, because it's once again being forced to participate in and help with war crimes but on a much larger scale with an entire inhabited star system and billions of lives at stake rather that just a few dozen innocent scientists and doctors as in Divide. Same craporama, much larger and more devastating scale.
If I were given my natural morals and ethics I would've refused to go any further in the 22nd century til he explained in detail why we weren't trying to reactivate the Na'khul star. If he refused I would have stunned Kal Dano, returned to my ship and forced him to explain. If it was a matter of time we would hold off til a fleet showed up to assist.
It's not even that big a question if the damage is irreversible. That makes sense. If I was going to kill a star I'd turn it's core to iron, can't really fix that once it's done. Though the fact that it's a Quantum Phase Inhibitor would say to me that it stops things from turning to plasma (or any other phase transitions quantum or above) thus denying a star the heat it needs to burn no matter the gravity or pressure.
My morals would also say to never speak to the Na'khul again after they threw me out of their system and refused all help. I would respect their wishes and completely ignore them.
Wow you couldn't miss the point more if you tried. It is NOT "history" to us, we were freaking THERE and did nothing to stop it. We had the Tox Uthat in our hands and instead of repairing the star (which was happening in our current timeline right in front of us) we were instructed to go bury it instead by future people in order to preserve their future timeline. We in the PRESENT were expected to sacrifice PRESENT PEOPLE at the bidding of FUTURE PEOPLE. Meaning we're expected to let people die today because future people want it to turn out that way for their benefit. They want to dominate our present to ensure their future. You're not seeing the problem here? I for one refuse to bow to the will of future people over my present. I AND I ALONE control my destiny, I REFUSE to cede it to other people who don't even exist yet for me. And yet we're expected to swallow this without even so much as question.
What if Kal Dano had been your own great grandchild? Would you deny him his existence? Pure curiosity.
I agree that not doing anything/not receiving any explanation/confirmation that it was too late is TRIBBLE I'm down with you on that.
Star Trek is literally very future oriented. Perspective is important.
Will Riker shot Zephram Cochrane with a phaser. Cochrane was attempting to exercise his free will as you say. But him making the wrong decision at the wrong time would TRIBBLE over humanity for centuries, maybe more.
That's not the same as murdering someone...actually that example is with Edith Keeler, whose death while tragic, defeated the TRIBBLE. Sacrificing a present person for a future people.
I personally will not crush the future of my civilization for another, especially not one that I can clearly see in front of me. I'm sorry but Captain Walker, the crew of the Pastak, and the people at that conference ceased to be hypothetical the moment they appeared before me. I'm as much of a TRIBBLE destiny as the next guy (after you), but there's a limit.
Moreover, the temporal authorities had no problem letting Kal Dano come back in time to save the Lukari star from the Tholians, which caused the Na'kuhl star to be destroyed. They then refuse to clean up their own mess, and actively prevent the Na'kuhl from doing anything about it either. Their response to them is "oh well, sorry our actions we took to benefit ourselves scroowed you over, it sucks to be you!". Is it any wonder the Na'kuhl are ready to go to war for this? We sure as hell would if it were us! But somehow what's right and just when we do it is bad and not ok when others do it. Probably because we don't think they're pretty.
That actually makes me wonder.
So the from what's happened we know that the Lukari star was never supposed to have any problems. We also know that the Na'khul star did in fact die.
What's the difference?
So we have a temporal agent who shows up at both instances and tells us what happens.
The next question is which Tholians?
Logically, the Tholians who attacked Lukari were altering the timeline. So were they from the future?
So next were the Tholians that attacked Na'khul also from the future or the present? Well they were the same Tholians who attacked Lukari since they had the Tox Uthat. They could've also been temporal agents of the future Tholians.
What the hell is going on here?
I still think the Tholian Ambassador's statement is telling. They're willing to enforce the timeline by any means necessary and are in fact opposed to ANYONE time traveling. So then why would they make a temporal incursion?
Well Lukari was a feint, designed to steal the Tox Uthat. Na'khul was the real target.
So if I'm piecing together this crime scene, with that evidence so far the conclusion I'm coming to in my hypothesis is, the Tholians took out the Na'khul to prevent a full scale Temporal War, and enforce their own brand of Temporal Enforcement.
But that still leaves the question of why the Tholians weren't intercepted and their actions reversed. Well we know from the episode with the Relativity, that a person can be arrested for temporal crimes they're going to commit. A temporal preemptive strike seems extreme for the rest of the Temporal Accords to go along with, so I don't see their actions being sanctioned.
So all that I'm left with now is that we're expected to actually fix the problem on our end. As any Terminator fan knows, No Fate. It's entirely possible that by dealing with this ourselves our way we'll be able to both correct the mistake with the Na'khul and preserve the oncoming future.
Aghhh. That's as far as I can get with this paltry bit of information. It's fine this will be an ongoing conversation throughout this arc I hope.
We are siding with the villains here, and Cryptic is forcing us to do it.
Your perspective is limited though, we don't know who the real villain is though. We know the tragedy of the Na'khul. But that's it. I'm not going to just use time travel to fix my mistakes. So I need to get it right the first time. I'm already stuck wiping Kal Dano's dead a$$, and I want to know more before I make any more moves.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Well you clearly have a biology education here that surpasses mine. But I'd like to think that somewhere in the 150+ Federation member worlds at the time that there was someone would've had a wider knowledge base.
You'd hope but this is one of those big problems that's down to some pretty fundamental aspects of why life is the way it is.
To really put the problem at its simplest, natural selection has very strong limitations on what it can target. So there's a lot lurking around in the genome that can become problematic under certain circumstances. "Inbreeding depression" is one such example but another is simply aging (where the effect of deleterious genes isn't expressed until a point after reproductive age, after which biological systems get further and further beyond their "acceptable range" until, well, the individual dies of something.)
Because FED species (as far as we know) don't have indefinite lifespans (see. the plot of Insurrection) you have to assume that they don't have any significant ability to prune genomes for other sets of deleterious genes. It's great ground for sci-fi, but for Star Trek it really does seem beyond FED capability.
So if I'm piecing together this crime scene, with that evidence so far the conclusion I'm coming to in my hypothesis is, the Tholians took out the Na'khul to prevent a full scale Temporal War, and enforce their own brand of Temporal Enforcement.
That's the direction I'm leaning as well. If you think about it there's a lot that the Tholians could have done to wipe out the Na'Kuhl if they were simply trying to annihilate the species. I mentioned a trilithium weapon before, but a conventional bombardment of the planet also would have done the trick. And yet they used the Tox Uthat to bring about a "natural" disaster which the Na'kuhl seem to have some ability to cope with. It's still a disaster for them but the species doesn't really appear to be in any danger of extinction. The most significant change may be the way in which the Na'kuhl themselves have responded to the FED, but we definitely do not know how that will ultimately play out (we're on hostile terms now but reconciliation is definitely possible under these circumstances. They could still use our help. That may not have been true in other timelines.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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If our characters were given the freedom to act morally, according to the ethics of Star Trek like those on display in Midnight, we would side with the Na'kuhl in their fight to save their world.
The Na'kuhl's fight is not to save their world. On the contrary, they refused help from the factions that could possibly have saved it, because supposedly our not beating the Tholians fast enough makes it our fault they turned off the star. Apparently it's more important to spite us than help their people.
They are a two-bit terrorist faction having an immature temper tantrum because people hundreds of years later don't think it's such a good idea to mess with the timeline over some hypothetical possiblity that it might save one planet that wasn't even destroyed, only made uninhabitable. Do you see the future Romulans attacking people because they don't use time travel to undo Hobus?
Nevermind if we did use time travel to stop the Tholians using the Tox on it, what's to stop them using a trilithium torpedo, or whatever they used on the Lukari star, or some other contemporary star destroying technology instead?
Well you clearly have a biology education here that surpasses mine. But I'd like to think that somewhere in the 150+ Federation member worlds at the time that there was someone would've had a wider knowledge base.
You'd hope but this is one of those big problems that's down to some pretty fundamental aspects of why life is the way it is.
To really put the problem at its simplest, natural selection has very strong limitations on what it can target. So there's a lot lurking around in the genome that can become problematic under certain circumstances. "Inbreeding depression" is one such example but another is simply aging (where the effect of deleterious genes isn't expressed until a point after reproductive age, after which biological systems get further and further beyond their "acceptable range" until, well, the individual dies of something.)
Because FED species (as far as we know) don't have indefinite lifespans (see. the plot of Insurrection) you have to assume that they don't have any significant ability to prune genomes for other sets of deleterious genes. It's great ground for sci-fi, but for Star Trek it really does seem beyond FED capability.
So if I'm piecing together this crime scene, with that evidence so far the conclusion I'm coming to in my hypothesis is, the Tholians took out the Na'khul to prevent a full scale Temporal War, and enforce their own brand of Temporal Enforcement.
That's the direction I'm leaning as well. If you think about it there's a lot that the Tholians could have done to wipe out the Na'Kuhl if they were simply trying to annihilate the species. I mentioned a trilithium weapon before, but a conventional bombardment of the planet also would have done the trick. And yet they used the Tox Uthat to bring about a "natural" disaster which the Na'kuhl seem to have some ability to cope with. It's still a disaster for them but the species doesn't really appear to be in any danger of extinction. The most significant change may be the way in which the Na'kuhl themselves have responded to the FED, but we definitely do not know how that will ultimately play out (we're on hostile terms now but reconciliation is definitely possible under these circumstances. They could still use our help. That may not have been true in other timelines.)
(which is the only way to rationalize the fact that the writers have NO IDEA about the size of space, and established travel times in Star Trek,
The established travel times in Star Trek are based on speed of plot, always has been and always will be.
Well I despise such a strictly Doylist answer. The fact is Star Trek has had for a while now an underlying set of ground rules that are followed. Even speed of plot has a limit. The fact of the matter is they just threw all the old stuff into the trash without establishing why. And as I pointed out, it isn't even difficult to hand wave it and make it look like they were actually paying attention.
So if you're going to throw speed of plot out there I counter with they have no idea how to write then.
If our characters were given the freedom to act morally, according to the ethics of Star Trek like those on display in Midnight, we would side with the Na'kuhl in their fight to save their world.
The Na'kuhl's fight is not to save their world. On the contrary, they refused help from the factions that could possibly have saved it, because supposedly our not beating the Tholians fast enough makes it our fault they turned off the star. Apparently it's more important to spite us than help their people.
They are a two-bit terrorist faction having an immature temper tantrum because people hundreds of years later don't think it's such a good idea to mess with the timeline over some hypothetical possiblity that it might save one planet that wasn't even destroyed, only made uninhabitable. Do you see the future Romulans attacking people because they don't use time travel to undo Hobus?
Nevermind if we did use time travel to stop the Tholians using the Tox on it, what's to stop them using a trilithium torpedo, or whatever they used on the Lukari star, or some other contemporary star destroying technology instead?
Well it isn't that cut and dry.
They blame us for future actions that we had very little to deal with at all, which I don't find to be particularly justified. They don't distinguish between current Federation and future Federation.
In addition they are by default xenophobic and isolationist. But being that way has left them unable to distinguish. They don't trust anyone.
But yeah the line was basically crossed when they kicked us out and refused all help.
I'm not willing to call them two bit terrorists, as it's clear that terrorists don't represent entire species. There were plenty of Na'khul diplomats going through official channels in the 28th century.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
So the from what's happened we know that the Lukari star was never supposed to have any problems. We also know that the Na'khul star did in fact die.
What's the difference?
So we have a temporal agent who shows up at both instances and tells us what happens.
The next question is which Tholians?
Logically, the Tholians who attacked Lukari were altering the timeline. So were they from the future?
So next were the Tholians that attacked Na'khul also from the future or the present? Well they were the same Tholians who attacked Lukari since they had the Tox Uthat. They could've also been temporal agents of the future Tholians.
What the hell is going on here?
Well, we're not necessarily from Walker's past and the future we visited where the Temporal Accords got signed is not necessarily our future. Kal Dano and Walker and Daniels and Braxton may be from four (or more) different and competing futures.
Note Walker refers to "your timeline" when he talks to us. His uniform colors also don't match either prior version of Braxton we saw.
I'm not suggesting anything sinister on Walker's part. I am suggesting that we're potentially dealing with people from different futures who have different histories.
From Walker's perspective, it seems to me that we have the potential to become his past but the jury's still out on whether we become his past or another essentially identical timeline will become his past.
Kal Dano's timeline might have been one that had to be disrupted to end up with Walker's timeline. And from Walker's perspective, the jury might be out on whether we're his actual past or an alternate potential past. He probably wants to make sure we become his past because, if we don't, our timeline might become a rival universe with rival faction to his timeline and his faction in a Temporal War.
I'm not willing to call them two bit terrorists, as it's clear that terrorists don't represent entire species. There were plenty of Na'khul diplomats going through official channels in the 28th century.
Not all of them of course. That would be racist. Just the ones who are attacking people.
So the from what's happened we know that the Lukari star was never supposed to have any problems. We also know that the Na'khul star did in fact die.
What's the difference?
So we have a temporal agent who shows up at both instances and tells us what happens.
The next question is which Tholians?
Logically, the Tholians who attacked Lukari were altering the timeline. So were they from the future?
So next were the Tholians that attacked Na'khul also from the future or the present? Well they were the same Tholians who attacked Lukari since they had the Tox Uthat. They could've also been temporal agents of the future Tholians.
What the hell is going on here?
Well, we're not necessarily from Walker's past and the future we visited where the Temporal Accords got signed is not necessarily our future. Kal Dano and Walker and Daniels and Braxton may be from four (or more) different and competing futures.
Note Walker refers to "your timeline" when he talks to us. His uniform colors also don't match either prior version of Braxton we saw.
I'm not suggesting anything sinister on Walker's part. I am suggesting that we're potentially dealing with people from different futures who have different histories.
From Walker's perspective, it seems to me that we have the potential to become his past but the jury's still out on whether we become his past or another essentially identical timeline will become his past.
Kal Dano's timeline might have been one that had to be disrupted to end up with Walker's timeline. And from Walker's perspective, the jury might be out on whether we're his actual past or an alternate potential past. He probably wants to make sure we become his past because, if we don't, our timeline might become a rival universe with rival faction to his timeline and his faction in a Temporal War.
That's an interesting viewpoint that raises questions. My initial thought would be that Walker would only have access to his past. But if his ship has the ability to control and maintain a quantum state or alignment (i.e. always retain it's original timeline inside of itself and be immune to changes to the timeline) then there's no major reason I can think of why he wouldn't be able to shift through timelines as well.
If what you're saying is true, then Dano failing at Na'khul and dying being necessary to Walker's timeline is consistent with what we've been shown so far.
The worst option is our timeline becomes a battleground for a temporal war that tears are space time continuum apart.
I'm not willing to call them two bit terrorists, as it's clear that terrorists don't represent entire species. There were plenty of Na'khul diplomats going through official channels in the 28th century.
Not all of them of course. That would be racist. Just the ones who are attacking people.
Right right, just making sure.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Because FED species (as far as we know) don't have indefinite lifespans (see. the plot of Insurrection) you have to assume that they don't have any significant ability to prune genomes for other sets of deleterious genes. It's great ground for sci-fi, but for Star Trek it really does seem beyond FED capability.
I missed this in the prior post, but if I were to start out I'd point to the Denobulans who had successful genetic experimentation and enhancements and didn't have humanity's disastrous results. We've only ever seen those rules applied broadly to humans. Even then in isolated instances there have been wavers, those telekinetic super kids that caused rapid aging syndrome with their immune systems come to mind.
I don't think it's beyond Federation scientific ability at all, and has become less over time.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
So with foreknowledge just how many other people do we try to go back and save? The Crystaline Entity wiped out a Federation colony. Borg too. Dominion ground offensives cost a lot of lives. Iconians (through the Vaadwuar) destroyed the Krenim homeworld because of what they thought the Krenim might be capable of. And let's not forget Hobus. Hell, you could even go back and start correcting all sorts of other disasters throughout the history of all federation species. The Xindi attack on Earth, for example. Temporal incursions or no, the capability is there. I'm sure with warning from the Temporal Authorities a lot of good could be done. But what would the consequences be? With these kinds modifications and competing factions trying to improve their own histories it's stated in the last mission that the effect is ultimately the destruction of everything. Hence the Temporal Accords. Every change has consequences and those feedback into Armageddon. So you have to just put a stop to it (as best you can) totally. It doesn't matter how well intentioned you may be, the answer is no.
(for more on this point you should also check out Asimov's End of Eternity, which makes a less dramatic argument for why fixing events after the fact is ultimately self-destructive.)
Now, it's sad the Na'kuhl were victims of an attack on their star with less devastating results than a trilithium warhead (so consider what the Tholians might have tried instead if they weren't able to secure the Tox). But fixing history as we see fit isn't an option. Some things have to stick. That's very much the Star Trek standpoint on time travel. Some people have to pay the price for tomorrow to happen (and I'm very much referring to a particular episode here). That's not nice but that's inevitable in life.
That said, you should also keep in mind that we're only part way through the arc. Reconciliation in spite of common beliefs was a very strong theme with the last series but that first required setting up how everyone else was approaching the situation in the wrong way. So, you may just get your glorious moment of the Na'kuhl's star re-igniting in a future episode. But you should also prepare yourself to come to terms with a less-than ideal history, as you must have done after you watched First Contact [how many people died in the Borg attack on Montana, subsequent problems in the arctic, and [implicitly] in later events such as Wolf 359?] or the full spread of Enterprise [see. every problem the Suliban and Sphere Builders created throughout the quadrant]. And that's no war crime.
And before we get carried away here, let me just say that the above is largely just trying to point out that the most recent episode is in keeping with how Star Trek has dealt with bad events in relation to time travel. The heros try to fix things as best as they can but they very often don't get everything right (and they just have to move on knowing this as good as history can be.) People, and even whole populations, still die but at least enough was salvaged for history to keep on going (they NEVER go back and try to perfect things). Cryptic could do a lot better in explaining that standpoint in mission (as it is, the right things are alluded to) but at least they're on the right track so far.
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The Lukari scientist (in a story blog) idly speculated after the fact that having the Tox might help work out a way to reverse its effect (on general principles) but it was NEVER established (as far as I've seen, which also includes the TNG episode) that anyone had any capability to really do something. The Tox Uthat was not presented to work both ways after it's killed a star (else why would anyone in the future bother worrying about it? Star turned off? We'll just turn it on again with another device! It's the solar clapper!)
Calm down and think first about just what your premise is and just what might we expect from Star Trek. Did Picard go 'round for a second pass at first contact because the Borg still had some negative impact? Did Daniels try for another timeline where the Suliban didn't launch a terrorist campaign against the sector, the Expanse didn't claim so many lives, and a large part of Florida wasn't destroyed by the Xindi?
Nope. So where's your sense of Star Trek morality when the same idea is being applied here?
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Well you clearly have a biology education here that surpasses mine. But I'd like to think that somewhere in the 150+ Federation member worlds at the time that there was someone would've had a wider knowledge base.
On the observing for generations remark, I was referring to the whale's slow reproductive rate, it's clearly an ongoing project.
As far as the ethics of the thing, I think the preservation of the species would trump anti-eugenics laws, as again we're not trying to modify them to have superior performance like Julian Bashir, but to correct genetic abnormalities like Miral Paris' spine. And again, when in doubt, ask George and Gracie.
Justification is an interesting word.
According to the Na'Khul ambassador at the Signing, the destruction of the Na'khul star was a critical event that led to the signing of the Temporal Accords.
According to Captain Walker, without the signing of the temporal accords the outcome is "not pretty" including mention of a temporal war that results in reality nearly unmaking itself.
If we take both as true, then we have a situation where saving the Na'khul is also condemning ourselves to a possibly disastrous fate. And possibly a timeline where a temporal war destroys us all. Which is consistent with us being in a Temporal Cold War instead of a Temporal Hot War
If I may be a bit vague, imagine a timeline where say, Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't nuked, and instead a ground war occurs in Japan with millions of casualties on both sides. But as soon as Russia gets atomic weapons there's not the precedent of the US having nuclear weapons already and Stalin pushes and kicks off a nuclear war.
I don't now if that's clear, but I'm talking about a single but localized terrible event, that prevents later widespread terrible events.
So if allowing the Na'khul's star to survive actually results in another event on the scale of the Iconian war or worse what is the moral thing to do in your view? We're still "picking winners and losers" fighting on the side of the Na'khul just results in us volunteering our own side for the horrible fate, or worse, dooming us all.
If I were given my natural morals and ethics I would've refused to go any further in the 22nd century til he explained in detail why we weren't trying to reactivate the Na'khul star. If he refused I would have stunned Kal Dano, returned to my ship and forced him to explain. If it was a matter of time we would hold off til a fleet showed up to assist.
It's not even that big a question if the damage is irreversible. That makes sense. If I was going to kill a star I'd turn it's core to iron, can't really fix that once it's done. Though the fact that it's a Quantum Phase Inhibitor would say to me that it stops things from turning to plasma (or any other phase transitions quantum or above) thus denying a star the heat it needs to burn no matter the gravity or pressure.
My morals would also say to never speak to the Na'khul again after they threw me out of their system and refused all help. I would respect their wishes and completely ignore them.
What if Kal Dano had been your own great grandchild? Would you deny him his existence? Pure curiosity.
I agree that not doing anything/not receiving any explanation/confirmation that it was too late is TRIBBLE I'm down with you on that.
Star Trek is literally very future oriented. Perspective is important.
Will Riker shot Zephram Cochrane with a phaser. Cochrane was attempting to exercise his free will as you say. But him making the wrong decision at the wrong time would TRIBBLE over humanity for centuries, maybe more.
That's not the same as murdering someone...actually that example is with Edith Keeler, whose death while tragic, defeated the TRIBBLE. Sacrificing a present person for a future people.
I personally will not crush the future of my civilization for another, especially not one that I can clearly see in front of me. I'm sorry but Captain Walker, the crew of the Pastak, and the people at that conference ceased to be hypothetical the moment they appeared before me. I'm as much of a TRIBBLE destiny as the next guy (after you), but there's a limit.
That actually makes me wonder.
So the from what's happened we know that the Lukari star was never supposed to have any problems. We also know that the Na'khul star did in fact die.
What's the difference?
So we have a temporal agent who shows up at both instances and tells us what happens.
The next question is which Tholians?
Logically, the Tholians who attacked Lukari were altering the timeline. So were they from the future?
So next were the Tholians that attacked Na'khul also from the future or the present? Well they were the same Tholians who attacked Lukari since they had the Tox Uthat. They could've also been temporal agents of the future Tholians.
What the hell is going on here?
I still think the Tholian Ambassador's statement is telling. They're willing to enforce the timeline by any means necessary and are in fact opposed to ANYONE time traveling. So then why would they make a temporal incursion?
Well Lukari was a feint, designed to steal the Tox Uthat. Na'khul was the real target.
So if I'm piecing together this crime scene, with that evidence so far the conclusion I'm coming to in my hypothesis is, the Tholians took out the Na'khul to prevent a full scale Temporal War, and enforce their own brand of Temporal Enforcement.
But that still leaves the question of why the Tholians weren't intercepted and their actions reversed. Well we know from the episode with the Relativity, that a person can be arrested for temporal crimes they're going to commit. A temporal preemptive strike seems extreme for the rest of the Temporal Accords to go along with, so I don't see their actions being sanctioned.
So all that I'm left with now is that we're expected to actually fix the problem on our end. As any Terminator fan knows, No Fate. It's entirely possible that by dealing with this ourselves our way we'll be able to both correct the mistake with the Na'khul and preserve the oncoming future.
Aghhh. That's as far as I can get with this paltry bit of information. It's fine this will be an ongoing conversation throughout this arc I hope.
Your perspective is limited though, we don't know who the real villain is though. We know the tragedy of the Na'khul. But that's it. I'm not going to just use time travel to fix my mistakes. So I need to get it right the first time. I'm already stuck wiping Kal Dano's dead a$$, and I want to know more before I make any more moves.
You'd hope but this is one of those big problems that's down to some pretty fundamental aspects of why life is the way it is.
To really put the problem at its simplest, natural selection has very strong limitations on what it can target. So there's a lot lurking around in the genome that can become problematic under certain circumstances. "Inbreeding depression" is one such example but another is simply aging (where the effect of deleterious genes isn't expressed until a point after reproductive age, after which biological systems get further and further beyond their "acceptable range" until, well, the individual dies of something.)
Because FED species (as far as we know) don't have indefinite lifespans (see. the plot of Insurrection) you have to assume that they don't have any significant ability to prune genomes for other sets of deleterious genes. It's great ground for sci-fi, but for Star Trek it really does seem beyond FED capability.
That's the direction I'm leaning as well. If you think about it there's a lot that the Tholians could have done to wipe out the Na'Kuhl if they were simply trying to annihilate the species. I mentioned a trilithium weapon before, but a conventional bombardment of the planet also would have done the trick. And yet they used the Tox Uthat to bring about a "natural" disaster which the Na'kuhl seem to have some ability to cope with. It's still a disaster for them but the species doesn't really appear to be in any danger of extinction. The most significant change may be the way in which the Na'kuhl themselves have responded to the FED, but we definitely do not know how that will ultimately play out (we're on hostile terms now but reconciliation is definitely possible under these circumstances. They could still use our help. That may not have been true in other timelines.)
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The established travel times in Star Trek are based on speed of plot, always has been and always will be.
The Na'kuhl's fight is not to save their world. On the contrary, they refused help from the factions that could possibly have saved it, because supposedly our not beating the Tholians fast enough makes it our fault they turned off the star. Apparently it's more important to spite us than help their people.
They are a two-bit terrorist faction having an immature temper tantrum because people hundreds of years later don't think it's such a good idea to mess with the timeline over some hypothetical possiblity that it might save one planet that wasn't even destroyed, only made uninhabitable. Do you see the future Romulans attacking people because they don't use time travel to undo Hobus?
Nevermind if we did use time travel to stop the Tholians using the Tox on it, what's to stop them using a trilithium torpedo, or whatever they used on the Lukari star, or some other contemporary star destroying technology instead?
That is so F---ing ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.
Well I despise such a strictly Doylist answer. The fact is Star Trek has had for a while now an underlying set of ground rules that are followed. Even speed of plot has a limit. The fact of the matter is they just threw all the old stuff into the trash without establishing why. And as I pointed out, it isn't even difficult to hand wave it and make it look like they were actually paying attention.
So if you're going to throw speed of plot out there I counter with they have no idea how to write then.
Well it isn't that cut and dry.
They blame us for future actions that we had very little to deal with at all, which I don't find to be particularly justified. They don't distinguish between current Federation and future Federation.
In addition they are by default xenophobic and isolationist. But being that way has left them unable to distinguish. They don't trust anyone.
But yeah the line was basically crossed when they kicked us out and refused all help.
I'm not willing to call them two bit terrorists, as it's clear that terrorists don't represent entire species. There were plenty of Na'khul diplomats going through official channels in the 28th century.
Well, we're not necessarily from Walker's past and the future we visited where the Temporal Accords got signed is not necessarily our future. Kal Dano and Walker and Daniels and Braxton may be from four (or more) different and competing futures.
Note Walker refers to "your timeline" when he talks to us. His uniform colors also don't match either prior version of Braxton we saw.
I'm not suggesting anything sinister on Walker's part. I am suggesting that we're potentially dealing with people from different futures who have different histories.
From Walker's perspective, it seems to me that we have the potential to become his past but the jury's still out on whether we become his past or another essentially identical timeline will become his past.
Kal Dano's timeline might have been one that had to be disrupted to end up with Walker's timeline. And from Walker's perspective, the jury might be out on whether we're his actual past or an alternate potential past. He probably wants to make sure we become his past because, if we don't, our timeline might become a rival universe with rival faction to his timeline and his faction in a Temporal War.
That's an interesting viewpoint that raises questions. My initial thought would be that Walker would only have access to his past. But if his ship has the ability to control and maintain a quantum state or alignment (i.e. always retain it's original timeline inside of itself and be immune to changes to the timeline) then there's no major reason I can think of why he wouldn't be able to shift through timelines as well.
If what you're saying is true, then Dano failing at Na'khul and dying being necessary to Walker's timeline is consistent with what we've been shown so far.
The worst option is our timeline becomes a battleground for a temporal war that tears are space time continuum apart.
Right right, just making sure.
I missed this in the prior post, but if I were to start out I'd point to the Denobulans who had successful genetic experimentation and enhancements and didn't have humanity's disastrous results. We've only ever seen those rules applied broadly to humans. Even then in isolated instances there have been wavers, those telekinetic super kids that caused rapid aging syndrome with their immune systems come to mind.
I don't think it's beyond Federation scientific ability at all, and has become less over time.