Snowball effect. Step on a bug, might end up someday with the Borg assimilating the entire galaxy.
Yep, but who started it? Iconians , who destroyed Romulus or Sela, who in vengeance killed the Iconians, or Iconians, who in vengeance for vengeance destroyed Romulus?
The same as Na'kuhl vs. Tholians. Tholians used Tox Uthat on Na'kuhl, because Na'kuhl will do something bad in the future and Na'kuhl are bad, because Tholians used Tox Uthat....
I say the time traveling is generator of paradoxes. Stop it until it's time! And Vulcan science academy says, that the time travels are impossible. In addition, Star Trek writers don't know how it works quantum dating. You can't have a thing with negative quantum dating even if that thing is from the future.
It's always been about the pew-pew not a coherent story, that's why I just mash the F key until the action starts. In game actions don't lead to noticeable consequences, so every new story follows the same tired path; impending doom/save the day briefing, oh noes . . . fighting ground/space, fireside chat, protagonist space/ground combat, profit.
Clearly the game engine cannot give us a more flexible outcome, so we are all typecast the same way, when obviously a Fed toon would act much differently to a KDF toon. Net result, homogeneous story lines with no real distinction from the last one. Sadly.
It's always been about the pew-pew not a coherent story, that's why I just mash the F key until the action starts. In game actions don't lead to noticeable consequences, so every new story follows the same tired path; impending doom/save the day briefing, oh noes . . . fighting ground/space, fireside chat, protagonist space/ground combat, profit.
Clearly the game engine cannot give us a more flexible outcome, so we are all typecast the same way, when obviously a Fed toon would act much differently to a KDF toon. Net result, homogeneous story lines with no real distinction from the last one. Sadly.
So that you will like the new film Star Trek Beyond And I like most of STO story, still better than Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, Star Trek: Renegades, some comics and of course Twilight
If I compare STO with other games , it's not that bad.
I very much like the visuals. The new Khitomer thing, the ring base around the planet and the interiors look are very nice and that's a huge plus here.
There's however a lot of detailwork missing. Our characters are supposedly from the past, but everybody at the consequence wears attire from "our" time. When we talk to the Klingon who is surprised we wear a 25th century uniform I wanted to reply "yes, so do you, brick head!". Why does the temporal agent wear a 25th century Starfleet ensign uniform when he wasn't even briefed on his mission in the 25th century yet?
The writing is... adequate. It's the usual MMO/STO story that chains maps on which we should six mobs before proceeding and does so adequately. However: The temporal flavour of the story serves absolutely no purpose. Traveling through time is used so casually as to warp to the next system. If you would exchange all references to time simply with references to space and it's a generic peace conference at stake nothing would change. At all. Further, we're once again treated like idiots. When Annorax II. gives his first bad speech we have two dialogue options: a) "DUUUH!? Time is so complicated I don't understand!?" and b) "I'm gonna whoop your TRIBBLE". Selecting option b) because time-travel stories are not f'ing complicated leads to Annorax II. giving the expositon speech of how he could achieve the marvel of leaving a second ago and bringing his army now. That's... lazy.
The whole setup makes no sense. When Annorax goes rogue with the ship and screws with time why don't we simply go further back and stop it?. With the time-net and blah in the future we have absolute control over time, we don't have to return two minutes before it happens and be "too late" and see everything unfolding regardless. I say it once again: Time-travel is not clever. It just doesn't make sense if used for more than one episode with a point. The arc would work much better if all reference to time would simply be replaced for spatial references and make it a peace conference in the 25th century. Done. Classic revenge flick and we save the day, without the nonsense.
The only redeeming factor the whole time-travel has is that Cryptic could decide to let it all wipe in the end and reset everything.
Also: We actually get almost a carbon copy of Annorax's VOY arc here. If he starts to remove stuff next episode the writing staff really went creative here... not.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I very much like the visuals. The new Khitomer thing, the ring base around the planet and the interiors look are very nice and that's a huge plus here.
I say it once again: Time-travel is not clever. It just doesn't make sense if used for more than one episode with a point. The arc would work much better if all reference to time would simply be replaced for spatial references and make it a peace conference in the 25th century. Done. Classic revenge flick and we save the day, without the nonsense.
The only redeeming factor the whole time-travel has is that Cryptic could decide to let it all wipe in the end and reset everything.
Also: We actually get almost a carbon copy of Annorax's VOY arc here. If he starts to remove stuff next episode the writing staff really went creative here... not.
Yes but you see the problem with that thinking is the fact that Kal Dano bears responsibility for his incusion, it is because he decided he'd go back and "fix" things that he created a bigger problem. If one were to try to go back and fix what Kal Dano created you may save the Na'kuhl but at what cost? How many other civilizations may be inadvertently destroyed in the process? You're right it isn't "fair" for Na'kuhl and their feeling are understandable but that doesn't justify further meddling with the timeline which may do even greater harm.
You can't blame Dano for what the Tholians did. If he didn't try correct an obvious problem in the timeline (ex. one of his own ancestor species being annihilated when that wasn't supposed to happen) then much bigger problems would ensue (ex. the loss of the Lukari's influence on galactic history, they're involved with things by the 28th century.)
But things didn't go according to plan. Of course not, this is dramatic fiction! But what's the implication of that? Something needs to be done (ie. by us) to resolve this because left to itself (like the Lukari's dying star) things could get a whole lot worse. The problems with the Na'kuhl, Tholians, and Sphere Builders are hanging threads dangling before us at the start/middle of a new story arc. That's good dramatic fiction.
What you might also want to remember is that time travel stories aren't best judged at their beginning . You need to see the whole arc in order to get a good sense for what it all amounts to (which goes without saying normally, but it's worth repeating for this genre because I think some use the presence of time travel as an excuse to drop how we [consumers/readers] normally approach narratives and lunge straight in with scissors and a will to attack. :P)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Earth under attack by Iconians: go back in time and wipe them out! Time travel is the only way!
Na'kul star goes out killing most life in the system: you can't go back and fix it! Time travel is wrong!
We don't know that, because the possibility was never discussed. It's like there's a scene missing after the Tox Uthat is recovered, where Kal Dano convinces the player they can't fix the star and why. It is entirely plausible the device couldn't undo the damage even if they wanted to.
It would've been a better mission with that scene added.
@rattler2 I just think they whomever wrote this episode could have done more to make Noye's actions more justifiable. Like he petitioned the Alliance to use a temporal incursion to restore his wife and her people and was rejected in spite of very promising simulations. Just anything more then an Alliance officer was in charge of the mission. There's nothing worse then a villain for villains sake.
Personally, I would've written him as a megalomaniac looking to restore the Krenim Imperium and forgotten that whole wife bit. It just makes him appear totally insane that he'd turn traitor because he heard he had a wife in some other timeline. It's not like he could realistically have feelings for a person he's only read about in some report.
It's the Na'khul who are innocent victims with a very real grievance that I would not do harm to simply for fighting for their home and people.
The Na'kuhl WERE innocent victims. They are, however, not "fighting for their home and people," just attacking people in a blind rage. 300 years after the fact no less.
The Tholians were to blame. Kal Dano may have been to blame, depending on whether he could've restored the star or not. The player and the factions were just trying to help. That we were too late was unfortunate but not our fault.
The scenario is like someone was shot with a stolen gun and the victim's family blames the cops who come after the thieves. Completely irrational. Not the kind of people you trust with time travel.
I also don't understand why Noye holds the Federation responsible for his wife's death. If anything shouldn't he blame the Borg?
Actually, to begin with, it was the Krenim's own "genius" idea to use the time weapon against Iconians in the first place, the Alliance (supposedly, according to the story) jumped at the idea out of desperation. And it were the Krenim researchers that ran the simulations and chose points for possible time incursions. And it were the Romulans, who were pushing most strongly for this particular time incursion.
So the big question is - what does the Federation have to do with all this ? If anything, the Fed participants had the biggest qualms about the idea.
Your actions weren't your own in Divide et Impera. *SPOILER* You were partially mind controlled by Zelle (see the now ex-Spotlight mission "Divide ut Regnes" in the Foundry)
Perhaps the same is true here (manipulated by Kal Dano and a whole lotta other 'cloak and dagger' time agents so we don't know which way is up anymore). Note: we are in an alternate timeline, obviously, in the latest episode. There was never any recorded attack on the Temporal Accords signing. WE will be the ones to set that straight, most likely by following the principles of Starfleet (and the moral/honor compasses of other powers). ....or at least I hope the writers allow us to redeem ourselves in this fashion in the end.
That seems to be the style the writing team is going.
The Na'khul are the aliens who were helping Germany during the two part Enterprise season 4 premiere, they are not innocent.
The actions of Vosk and twenty of his followers don't necessarily reflect the morality of an entire race. The Na'Kuhl we see in STO seem to be pretty reasonable people, no different than humans would act in the same situation.
I agree that burying the Tox Uthat instead of fixing the star was unreasonable. At the very least the devs should have had a throwaway line excusing it somehow. But that's already been debated plenty. :P
As for the Temporal Accords ... I think time travel should have been banned completely, like the Tholians wanted. Yeah, the Na'Kuhl lost their home and that's horrible, but so did the Romulans. And they came back with a vengeance in less than thirty years. If the Na'Kuhl want to wallow in misery for three hundred years rather than actively rebuild, that's their choice, but I won't hesitate to fire on them if they try anything nasty. And Noye is just delusional, maybe as much as Nero. Diplomacy won't work on him; we'll have to either lock him up or put him down.
I disagree. Humans are more...adaptable to a crisis. And despite mistrust of people who had a hand in it, we're also quick enough on our feet to not refuse assistance. There's no way in their place humans would've kicked the interstellar power who wants to make every attempt possible to reignite our star out of the system.
Vosk is an interesting case. He seems to be a sanctioned Temporal Agent out to do what the Na'khul have stated. Use time as a weapon. A Temporal Spec Ops agent. That said their species did use diplomacy.
Agree on the throwaway line. Have the Tholians bearing down on us with a massive fleet that we couldn't repulse, or survive long enough for help to come, or something.
I thought the mission okay, but some things bothered me. Why were the player characters even invited to this event? A representative from our time period? Why? It serves no purpose and has no reason. Why were there no other time period specific guests? I also don't understand why Noye holds the Federation responsible for his wife's death. If anything shouldn't he blame the Borg? They attacked the time ship (Annorax) after the time incursion which ultimately resulted in Clauda's death.
Because the Temporal War cold or otherwise starts in our timeline. Since this is a cross temporal event, i.e. we're going to be dealing with attackers from the future, we actually need knowledge from the future in order to keep time on the right course from our end. He basically needed us to see the fruits of our labors. The Jenolen Accords Alliance leads to the Galactic Union, which institutes the Temporal Accords. Starfleet Command selected us due to our incredible capability and record, and prior history of ethical time travel i.e. "Midnight".
We were the only ones because the more people you authorize to go the more people whose mouths you have to worry about keeping shut. We need specific knowledge but we have to minimize how much we get to prevent TRIBBLE up the timeline. If we were going to Earth's past we would send a landing party of three instead of thirty. That way there's less chance of someone TRIBBLE up and leaving a communicator behind. It's the same going forward. Quinn explained it in not so many words.
Noye was always a jerk who blamed other people for his problems, that was clear when we first met him in the original timeline. Clauda however mellowed him and kept him in check. Without her, he's an unrestricted TRIBBLE. The logs on the Annorax were incomplete because we simply couldn't fully update them. So if they are there, he likely ignored them once he found out he had a child that would never be. Even if the Borg hadn't damaged the time ship, Clauda's homeworld was gone. She would've been restricted to the Annorax forever. And clearly he's trying to avoid blaming himself. After all the weapon that most directly led to the Tuterian's annihilation, is the Krenim Temporal Weapons Ship.
The Na'khul weren't exactly friendly. Even though the player TRIED to stop the Tholians, who were ultimately responsible, the Na'khul blamed the player and player's faction and kicked them out of their system.
That does nothing whatsoever to excuse burying the Tox Uthat without first repairing the Na'khul star. And it doesn't excuse refusing to allow them to save their star via time travel when time travel shenanigans are responsible for their star being snuffed to begin with. Temporal people MADE that mess and not only refused to fix it, they refused to let them fix it themselves. If some aliens had done that to our Sun would there be any doubt that we'd go to war or do whatever else it took to set it right and save Earth? And would we not flip a giant bird to anyone who says we shouldn't or can't, and take down anyone standing in our way?
If it's ok for us to do that, and you wouldn't get much argument from any human if we were in that situation about doing whatever needed to be done, then it's ok for the Na'khul. We're not the universe's special snowflake privileged characters that get to do whatever we want or need and say scroo anyone else acting in their own best interests.
You're making the worst assumption about humanity though. 25th century humans would be actively attempting to reignite Sol by any means necessary and accepting every single overture of assistance to restore it. We would also consider the damage that using time travel to fix it could bring, especially after the repeated failures of Project: Annorax. We can say the Na'khul don't know any better as they don't have that experience, but we already know that time is a weapon that backfires very easily. Humans and Na'khul wouldn't react to this the same way as by that time, we aren't xenophobic and paranoid.
The Na'khul are the aliens who were helping Germany during the two part Enterprise season 4 premiere, they are not innocent.
But...that timeline doesn't exist...
More accurately, it hasn't yet come to exist because this is the set up for their time travel back to earth; this stupidity of the Federation sets them onto that path.
Essentially, STO present f**ks up and causes the Temporal War. And specifically the Xindi conflict. And the Iconian conflict. Like, the Alliance should just stop messing around with stuff they don't understand...
The Iconian War and the Hobus event were the very specific TRIBBLE up of a Romulan "Empress". If we hadn't time traveled to be there then the Iconians likely wouldn't have survived at all to escape. Which likely would've left us with the original TNG timeline.
And that reminds me, I like how they made Noye, Future Guy.
Earth under attack by Iconians: go back in time and wipe them out! Time travel is the only way!
Na'kul star goes out killing most life in the system: you can't go back and fix it! Time travel is wrong!
Pfffft... if Sol went out we'd be on the first Pashtak back and change the event. But it's ok for US to do it, we're Starfleet. You can't do it, Mr Nakul, cos you are far too unimportant, unwashed and unworthy. Stiff upper lip, old chap, that's the spirit.
I understood the New Romulus/Hobus conundrum, changing that would undo the Republic. Give us Liberty or give us death abd all that. BUT, the Nakul have done nothing to no-one (yet), and it isn't an event from 30 years ago, it's an event from last month.
But then.. if we fix the Nakul star in Ep3, there is no ep4 lol.
Well the Temporal Integrity Commission literally exists to ensure that no one screws with the present timeline in the 28th century. Destroying Sol would avert that. So in whatever original timeline led to that, one would likely see the Na'khul star go out anyway. Is the Kal Dano's Tox Uthat timeline the only one that leads to the Temporal Accords timeline? We definitely don't have all the pieces here. What happens to the Na'khul star once Archer resets the timeline and wins the Temporal Cold War?
We're also not answering another question here. If the Tholians are a species involved with the Temporal Accords, why were they attacking the Na'khul in the first place? Considering the encounters we've had with the Tholians throughout this game, they usually don't go out of their way to attack a species. What do the Na'khul do or have that would draw Tholian attention?
Snowball effect. Step on a bug, might end up someday with the Borg assimilating the entire galaxy.
Yep, but who started it? Iconians , who destroyed Romulus or Sela, who in vengeance killed the Iconians, or Iconians, who in vengeance for vengeance destroyed Romulus?
The same as Na'kuhl vs. Tholians. Tholians used Tox Uthat on Na'kuhl, because Na'kuhl will do something bad in the future and Na'kuhl are bad, because Tholians used Tox Uthat....
I say the time traveling is generator of paradoxes. Stop it until it's time! And Vulcan science academy says, that the time travels are impossible. In addition, Star Trek writers don't know how it works quantum dating. You can't have a thing with negative quantum dating even if that thing is from the future.
Well as we've never interacted with a temporally displaced object we have no clue chronitons or antichronitons would interact with quantum dating, or what the scanner was actually scanning for.
Of course from a real science perspective point absolutely taken.
It's always been about the pew-pew not a coherent story, that's why I just mash the F key until the action starts. In game actions don't lead to noticeable consequences, so every new story follows the same tired path; impending doom/save the day briefing, oh noes . . . fighting ground/space, fireside chat, protagonist space/ground combat, profit.
Clearly the game engine cannot give us a more flexible outcome, so we are all typecast the same way, when obviously a Fed toon would act much differently to a KDF toon. Net result, homogeneous story lines with no real distinction from the last one. Sadly.
I very much like the visuals. The new Khitomer thing, the ring base around the planet and the interiors look are very nice and that's a huge plus here.
There's however a lot of detailwork missing. Our characters are supposedly from the past, but everybody at the consequence wears attire from "our" time. When we talk to the Klingon who is surprised we wear a 25th century uniform I wanted to reply "yes, so do you, brick head!". Why does the temporal agent wear a 25th century Starfleet ensign uniform when he wasn't even briefed on his mission in the 25th century yet?
The writing is... adequate. It's the usual MMO/STO story that chains maps on which we should six mobs before proceeding and does so adequately. However: The temporal flavour of the story serves absolutely no purpose. Traveling through time is used so casually as to warp to the next system. If you would exchange all references to time simply with references to space and it's a generic peace conference at stake nothing would change. At all. Further, we're once again treated like idiots. When Annorax II. gives his first bad speech we have two dialogue options: a) "DUUUH!? Time is so complicated I don't understand!?" and b) "I'm gonna whoop your TRIBBLE". Selecting option b) because time-travel stories are not f'ing complicated leads to Annorax II. giving the expositon speech of how he could achieve the marvel of leaving a second ago and bringing his army now. That's... lazy.
The whole setup makes no sense. When Annorax goes rogue with the ship and screws with time why don't we simply go further back and stop it?. With the time-net and blah in the future we have absolute control over time, we don't have to return two minutes before it happens and be "too late" and see everything unfolding regardless. I say it once again: Time-travel is not clever. It just doesn't make sense if used for more than one episode with a point. The arc would work much better if all reference to time would simply be replaced for spatial references and make it a peace conference in the 25th century. Done. Classic revenge flick and we save the day, without the nonsense.
The only redeeming factor the whole time-travel has is that Cryptic could decide to let it all wipe in the end and reset everything.
Also: We actually get almost a carbon copy of Annorax's VOY arc here. If he starts to remove stuff next episode the writing staff really went creative here... not.
I was pretty insulted that they thought I couldn't figure out that he time traveled upgraded the ship and came back. That was obvious. And when I chose the option that skipped that reaction, I STILL got the response that said I didn't get it.
Time travel doesn't work well that way. Going back further doesn't eliminate that timeline, it generates FURTHER timelines. You don't eliminate bad outcomes, you create more forks in the road. The Temporal Weapons Ship is supposed to eliminate that by removing things from all timelines at the source, but that leaves with less pieces to play with and actually takes away options.
The only actual solution is the Year of Hell answer, which is a temporal incursion on the weapon's ship, unfortunately that means we don't have it to make a portal to 200,000 BC Iconia. Which is why we repeatedly disable instead of just destroy the damn thing.
I very much like the visuals. The new Khitomer thing, the ring base around the planet and the interiors look are very nice and that's a huge plus here.
There's however a lot of detailwork missing. Our characters are supposedly from the past, but everybody at the consequence wears attire from "our" time. When we talk to the Klingon who is surprised we wear a 25th century uniform I wanted to reply "yes, so do you, brick head!". Why does the temporal agent wear a 25th century Starfleet ensign uniform when he wasn't even briefed on his mission in the 25th century yet?
The writing is... adequate. It's the usual MMO/STO story that chains maps on which we should six mobs before proceeding and does so adequately. However: The temporal flavour of the story serves absolutely no purpose. Traveling through time is used so casually as to warp to the next system. If you would exchange all references to time simply with references to space and it's a generic peace conference at stake nothing would change. At all. Further, we're once again treated like idiots. When Annorax II. gives his first bad speech we have two dialogue options: a) "DUUUH!? Time is so complicated I don't understand!?" and b) "I'm gonna whoop your TRIBBLE". Selecting option b) because time-travel stories are not f'ing complicated leads to Annorax II. giving the expositon speech of how he could achieve the marvel of leaving a second ago and bringing his army now. That's... lazy.
The whole setup makes no sense. When Annorax goes rogue with the ship and screws with time why don't we simply go further back and stop it?. With the time-net and blah in the future we have absolute control over time, we don't have to return two minutes before it happens and be "too late" and see everything unfolding regardless. I say it once again: Time-travel is not clever. It just doesn't make sense if used for more than one episode with a point. The arc would work much better if all reference to time would simply be replaced for spatial references and make it a peace conference in the 25th century. Done. Classic revenge flick and we save the day, without the nonsense.
The only redeeming factor the whole time-travel has is that Cryptic could decide to let it all wipe in the end and reset everything.
Also: We actually get almost a carbon copy of Annorax's VOY arc here. If he starts to remove stuff next episode the writing staff really went creative here... not.
Have to say, I didn't enjoy the conference much either. The other delegates/attendees/whatever were not presented as people - they were characterless sterotypes. I realise that they played a minor role in the grand scheme of the episode, but nonetheless, the Ferengi we spoke to said Ferengi things to us. The Orion said Sterotypical Orion stuff to us etc etc. There was no personality behind them, just 'this is a Ferengi' - I'm sure he had a name; I don't care what it was - he was Generic Ferengi A in my view.
And I was sincerely hoping that they would be from somewhere in the future and the dialouge, with the Ferengi for example, would say something that would show that the Ferengi, at some point, move beyond the pursuit of wealth.
I will say that, I give a pass to the Lukari though - I liked her. A combination of good voice acting and not being tied to any sort of canon meant that I enjoyed her dialouge; she felt more like a person than the others.
That's not exactly a sterling view now is it?
WHY would the Ferengi move beyond profit? Because they've embraced Federation values? Their entire civilization and culture is based around economics. They aren't just going to put that down, even if they do do things because they see the bigger picture. Even Nog knows how to apply his Ferengi values to his Starfleet job, and he's a better Starfleet officer for it. The Klingon Federation Ambassador was still a warrior. Joining the Federation or allying with it is NOT license to eliminate a species individuality or traits. The right way to do it is to preserve them, so their uniqueness is an asset to the Federation.
However none of the observers or ambassadors had names. I can excuse that though. I don't want to have to worry about not saying something if I encounter a member of their race with the same name later.
@rattler2 I just think they whomever wrote this episode could have done more to make Noye's actions more justifiable. Like he petitioned the Alliance to use a temporal incursion to restore his wife and her people and was rejected in spite of very promising simulations. Just anything more then an Alliance officer was in charge of the mission. There's nothing worse then a villain for villains sake.
Personally, I would've written him as a megalomaniac looking to restore the Krenim Imperium and forgotten that whole wife bit. It just makes him appear totally insane that he'd turn traitor because he heard he had a wife in some other timeline. It's not like he could realistically have feelings for a person he's only read about in some report.
I see it as the inverse. Noye is a miserable lonely TRIBBLE. As it turns out in another timeline, he was happily married and about to be a father. To a woman who now never existed. From his perspective they stole the happiness that he had. That he would now never have. It's not like he was Harry Mudd and we eliminated Stella from the timeline. The wife he never knew and the child he would never know. Considering how much of a jerk he is that probably WAS his only shot at love.
Him being a megalomaniac looking to restore the imperium is cliche and also spits on the canon.
In Year of Hell Annorax was trying to restore the Imperium to greatness and bring his wife back into existence. He was able to accomplish the former to about 98%, but could NEVER get the latter. When the Timeship was eliminated from existence in the 22nd century, the Krenim never had it as a superweapon option, and so the Imperium declined naturally, and the Krenim lived on and accepted it. Annorax also got his wife back. Two centuries later the Krenim are fine with the Imperium being gone. No Krenim has a problem with restoring the greater glory of the Imperium.
Trying to restore the Krenim species after the Vaadwaur and Iconian attacks is something he had already researched. It's already failed.
His current motivation is very personal and based on his personality. I prefer that to generic rule the galaxy.
Earth under attack by Iconians: go back in time and wipe them out! Time travel is the only way!
Na'kul star goes out killing most life in the system: you can't go back and fix it! Time travel is wrong!
We don't know that, because the possibility was never discussed. It's like there's a scene missing after the Tox Uthat is recovered, where Kal Dano convinces the player they can't fix the star and why. It is entirely plausible the device couldn't undo the damage even if they wanted to.
It would've been a better mission with that scene added.
Very very true.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
@rattler2 I just think they whomever wrote this episode could have done more to make Noye's actions more justifiable. Like he petitioned the Alliance to use a temporal incursion to restore his wife and her people and was rejected in spite of very promising simulations. Just anything more then an Alliance officer was in charge of the mission. There's nothing worse then a villain for villains sake.
Personally, I would've written him as a megalomaniac looking to restore the Krenim Imperium and forgotten that whole wife bit. It just makes him appear totally insane that he'd turn traitor because he heard he had a wife in some other timeline. It's not like he could realistically have feelings for a person he's only read about in some report.
Check the logs in the mission again, one of them is a personal log entry from his wife which means that the data capsule contained at least her personal data logs in addition to all the other information. Based on that and him being an outsider or loner who gets no recognition his motivations become more understandable. He lost the only person who loved him and his unborn child and it was all for nothing. As far as motivations for villains in Star Trek go that one is pretty good even though it is the same one as that of the original Annorax captain (his attempt to make the Krenim Empire stronger cost him his wife, see Year of Hell).
The other delegates/attendees/whatever were not presented as people - they were characterless sterotypes. I realise that they played a minor role in the grand scheme of the episode, but nonetheless, the Ferengi we spoke to said Ferengi things to us.
Maybe not all. There was a very ... khem-khem, friendly Lukari ambassador.
...As far as motivations for villains in Star Trek go that one is pretty good ...
No it isn't. It's incredibly weak IMO.
I disagree. Here's someone who can basically claim that the universe stole his life away and he can point the finger squarely at the Alliance and, let's not forget, you for being there at the critical moment. He can then extend that personal core into a broader criticism of the way the Alliance handled the Iconian war (see. destruction of Krenim homeworld, civilization) and bring that to other grieved parties (ex. the Na'kuhl) who can variously connect at personal or ideological levels depending on where the writers want to go.
It pretty much has everything, it's well integrated, and it's well established.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Who build the ring arround Khitomer? What is the point of it? It is in space, a space ship got stuck in it, which makes playing the whole mission, bleh ... immersion, anybody? In the future we can build huge structures, from the surface of a planet into space. Spaceships will fly arround them and hit them sometimes, just as the Titanic hit an iceberg. Accidents happen, its a lesson.
Also I am not fond of time traveling. It is a trick for writers for the scifi genre. You can put your characters from the futures in a todays setting, which lowers the costs of a production. There is no point though for setting a story in the future and then let the characters travel to ... the future.
Also I am not fond of time traveling. It is a trick for writers for the scifi genre. You can put your characters from the futures in a todays setting, which lowers the costs of a production. There is no point though for setting a story in the future and then let the characters travel to ... the future.
Except to show how nascent plot threads culminate when the time scales involved prevent that from happening in period (see. everything everyone said to you before the ceremony.) Basically "to show where everything is headed" (without resorting to a tedious sociology lecture.) :P
. You can put your characters from the futures in a todays setting, which lowers the costs of a production
Also, you can do the exact opposite (Futurama, The Time Machine) or not anything like that at all (End of Eternity.) Time travel is a narrative device used on many occasions to do cool things. Not every time travel story works, but then again not every sci-fi story works either (see. Plan 9 from Out Space, Destiny.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
To be fair, Cryptic isn't exactly good at grasping SPACE, either.
Well, to be even more fair staging events like that is pretty much how Star Trek works (except when the needs of narrative convenience make realistic travel times more desirable.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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It's my opinion. I don't care for the time travel arc or how this is playing out and how it is written. You're welcome to disagree.
Good to know, but you should probably be aware that was pretty clear from your first post. Replying back to welcome disagreement didn't really get us anywhere. :P
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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...As far as motivations for villains in Star Trek go that one is pretty good ...
No it isn't. It's incredibly weak IMO.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, but I'll make one attempt to explain how I view it and why I like it:
During the Iconian War we encounter the Krenim, get them involved in the war and together we use their time-erase technology twice. And in the end those acts did not stop the Iconians nor were they helpful in any way.
Since we are outside the bubble we do not actually remember doing that and the only reference to that erased timeline is in the data capsule that Noye was reading, including his wife's personal logs and information.
Noye starts viewing all those logs, sees how much better his life was and wants that back. He keeps viewing those logs again and again, gets more and more obsessed with the family that he lost and finally he snaps.
It's personal for him and his hatred for all those involved had much time to fester and grow.
Someone in this thread did not think that Noye could fall in love with someone he only got to know through the logs. Maybe he did or maybe he fell in love with the idea of having a family, who knows and does that distinction really matter? Is it possible and believable? To me the answer is a definite yes.
In the end it is a very human story of loss, grief and revenge. Noye's rational mind broke under the stress of those emotions and now he only wants back what he cannot have due to our (Fed,KDF,Rom) involvement and he will stop at nothing to get it.
Oh and on topic:
The whole Iconian storyline has major issues and problems:
According to the whole story arc all major factions have lost thousands of ships, millions, if not billions, of people and it's only Noye and the Na'Kuhl who want to change the present? Come on, where's Section 31? Where are the Romulan survivors who want to get their planet back? Where are the renegade captains in the galaxy?!?
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Yep, but who started it? Iconians , who destroyed Romulus or Sela, who in vengeance killed the Iconians, or Iconians, who in vengeance for vengeance destroyed Romulus?
The same as Na'kuhl vs. Tholians. Tholians used Tox Uthat on Na'kuhl, because Na'kuhl will do something bad in the future and Na'kuhl are bad, because Tholians used Tox Uthat....
I say the time traveling is generator of paradoxes. Stop it until it's time! And Vulcan science academy says, that the time travels are impossible. In addition, Star Trek writers don't know how it works quantum dating. You can't have a thing with negative quantum dating even if that thing is from the future.
Clearly the game engine cannot give us a more flexible outcome, so we are all typecast the same way, when obviously a Fed toon would act much differently to a KDF toon. Net result, homogeneous story lines with no real distinction from the last one. Sadly.
So that you will like the new film Star Trek Beyond
If I compare STO with other games , it's not that bad.
There's however a lot of detailwork missing. Our characters are supposedly from the past, but everybody at the consequence wears attire from "our" time. When we talk to the Klingon who is surprised we wear a 25th century uniform I wanted to reply "yes, so do you, brick head!". Why does the temporal agent wear a 25th century Starfleet ensign uniform when he wasn't even briefed on his mission in the 25th century yet?
The writing is... adequate. It's the usual MMO/STO story that chains maps on which we should six mobs before proceeding and does so adequately. However: The temporal flavour of the story serves absolutely no purpose. Traveling through time is used so casually as to warp to the next system. If you would exchange all references to time simply with references to space and it's a generic peace conference at stake nothing would change. At all. Further, we're once again treated like idiots. When Annorax II. gives his first bad speech we have two dialogue options: a) "DUUUH!? Time is so complicated I don't understand!?" and b) "I'm gonna whoop your TRIBBLE". Selecting option b) because time-travel stories are not f'ing complicated leads to Annorax II. giving the expositon speech of how he could achieve the marvel of leaving a second ago and bringing his army now. That's... lazy.
The whole setup makes no sense. When Annorax goes rogue with the ship and screws with time why don't we simply go further back and stop it?. With the time-net and blah in the future we have absolute control over time, we don't have to return two minutes before it happens and be "too late" and see everything unfolding regardless. I say it once again: Time-travel is not clever. It just doesn't make sense if used for more than one episode with a point. The arc would work much better if all reference to time would simply be replaced for spatial references and make it a peace conference in the 25th century. Done. Classic revenge flick and we save the day, without the nonsense.
The only redeeming factor the whole time-travel has is that Cryptic could decide to let it all wipe in the end and reset everything.
Also: We actually get almost a carbon copy of Annorax's VOY arc here. If he starts to remove stuff next episode the writing staff really went creative here... not.
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+1
You can't blame Dano for what the Tholians did. If he didn't try correct an obvious problem in the timeline (ex. one of his own ancestor species being annihilated when that wasn't supposed to happen) then much bigger problems would ensue (ex. the loss of the Lukari's influence on galactic history, they're involved with things by the 28th century.)
But things didn't go according to plan. Of course not, this is dramatic fiction! But what's the implication of that? Something needs to be done (ie. by us) to resolve this because left to itself (like the Lukari's dying star) things could get a whole lot worse. The problems with the Na'kuhl, Tholians, and Sphere Builders are hanging threads dangling before us at the start/middle of a new story arc. That's good dramatic fiction.
What you might also want to remember is that time travel stories aren't best judged at their beginning . You need to see the whole arc in order to get a good sense for what it all amounts to (which goes without saying normally, but it's worth repeating for this genre because I think some use the presence of time travel as an excuse to drop how we [consumers/readers] normally approach narratives and lunge straight in with scissors and a will to attack. :P)
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It would've been a better mission with that scene added.
The Tholians were to blame. Kal Dano may have been to blame, depending on whether he could've restored the star or not. The player and the factions were just trying to help. That we were too late was unfortunate but not our fault.
The scenario is like someone was shot with a stolen gun and the victim's family blames the cops who come after the thieves. Completely irrational. Not the kind of people you trust with time travel.
So the big question is - what does the Federation have to do with all this ? If anything, the Fed participants had the biggest qualms about the idea.
It hasn't been created in order to be wiped out until now. Yeah i know it's Temporal Mechanics. You just gotta roll with it sometimes.
That seems to be the style the writing team is going.
I disagree. Humans are more...adaptable to a crisis. And despite mistrust of people who had a hand in it, we're also quick enough on our feet to not refuse assistance. There's no way in their place humans would've kicked the interstellar power who wants to make every attempt possible to reignite our star out of the system.
Vosk is an interesting case. He seems to be a sanctioned Temporal Agent out to do what the Na'khul have stated. Use time as a weapon. A Temporal Spec Ops agent. That said their species did use diplomacy.
Agree on the throwaway line. Have the Tholians bearing down on us with a massive fleet that we couldn't repulse, or survive long enough for help to come, or something.
Because the Temporal War cold or otherwise starts in our timeline. Since this is a cross temporal event, i.e. we're going to be dealing with attackers from the future, we actually need knowledge from the future in order to keep time on the right course from our end. He basically needed us to see the fruits of our labors. The Jenolen Accords Alliance leads to the Galactic Union, which institutes the Temporal Accords. Starfleet Command selected us due to our incredible capability and record, and prior history of ethical time travel i.e. "Midnight".
We were the only ones because the more people you authorize to go the more people whose mouths you have to worry about keeping shut. We need specific knowledge but we have to minimize how much we get to prevent TRIBBLE up the timeline. If we were going to Earth's past we would send a landing party of three instead of thirty. That way there's less chance of someone TRIBBLE up and leaving a communicator behind. It's the same going forward. Quinn explained it in not so many words.
Noye was always a jerk who blamed other people for his problems, that was clear when we first met him in the original timeline. Clauda however mellowed him and kept him in check. Without her, he's an unrestricted TRIBBLE. The logs on the Annorax were incomplete because we simply couldn't fully update them. So if they are there, he likely ignored them once he found out he had a child that would never be. Even if the Borg hadn't damaged the time ship, Clauda's homeworld was gone. She would've been restricted to the Annorax forever. And clearly he's trying to avoid blaming himself. After all the weapon that most directly led to the Tuterian's annihilation, is the Krenim Temporal Weapons Ship.
You're making the worst assumption about humanity though. 25th century humans would be actively attempting to reignite Sol by any means necessary and accepting every single overture of assistance to restore it. We would also consider the damage that using time travel to fix it could bring, especially after the repeated failures of Project: Annorax. We can say the Na'khul don't know any better as they don't have that experience, but we already know that time is a weapon that backfires very easily. Humans and Na'khul wouldn't react to this the same way as by that time, we aren't xenophobic and paranoid.
The Iconian War and the Hobus event were the very specific TRIBBLE up of a Romulan "Empress". If we hadn't time traveled to be there then the Iconians likely wouldn't have survived at all to escape. Which likely would've left us with the original TNG timeline.
And that reminds me, I like how they made Noye, Future Guy.
Well the Temporal Integrity Commission literally exists to ensure that no one screws with the present timeline in the 28th century. Destroying Sol would avert that. So in whatever original timeline led to that, one would likely see the Na'khul star go out anyway. Is the Kal Dano's Tox Uthat timeline the only one that leads to the Temporal Accords timeline? We definitely don't have all the pieces here. What happens to the Na'khul star once Archer resets the timeline and wins the Temporal Cold War?
We're also not answering another question here. If the Tholians are a species involved with the Temporal Accords, why were they attacking the Na'khul in the first place? Considering the encounters we've had with the Tholians throughout this game, they usually don't go out of their way to attack a species. What do the Na'khul do or have that would draw Tholian attention?
It gives everyone a headache.
Clearly.
Well as we've never interacted with a temporally displaced object we have no clue chronitons or antichronitons would interact with quantum dating, or what the scanner was actually scanning for.
Of course from a real science perspective point absolutely taken.
True on the last part.
I was pretty insulted that they thought I couldn't figure out that he time traveled upgraded the ship and came back. That was obvious. And when I chose the option that skipped that reaction, I STILL got the response that said I didn't get it.
Time travel doesn't work well that way. Going back further doesn't eliminate that timeline, it generates FURTHER timelines. You don't eliminate bad outcomes, you create more forks in the road. The Temporal Weapons Ship is supposed to eliminate that by removing things from all timelines at the source, but that leaves with less pieces to play with and actually takes away options.
The only actual solution is the Year of Hell answer, which is a temporal incursion on the weapon's ship, unfortunately that means we don't have it to make a portal to 200,000 BC Iconia. Which is why we repeatedly disable instead of just destroy the damn thing.
That's not exactly a sterling view now is it?
WHY would the Ferengi move beyond profit? Because they've embraced Federation values? Their entire civilization and culture is based around economics. They aren't just going to put that down, even if they do do things because they see the bigger picture. Even Nog knows how to apply his Ferengi values to his Starfleet job, and he's a better Starfleet officer for it. The Klingon Federation Ambassador was still a warrior. Joining the Federation or allying with it is NOT license to eliminate a species individuality or traits. The right way to do it is to preserve them, so their uniqueness is an asset to the Federation.
However none of the observers or ambassadors had names. I can excuse that though. I don't want to have to worry about not saying something if I encounter a member of their race with the same name later.
I see it as the inverse. Noye is a miserable lonely TRIBBLE. As it turns out in another timeline, he was happily married and about to be a father. To a woman who now never existed. From his perspective they stole the happiness that he had. That he would now never have. It's not like he was Harry Mudd and we eliminated Stella from the timeline. The wife he never knew and the child he would never know. Considering how much of a jerk he is that probably WAS his only shot at love.
Him being a megalomaniac looking to restore the imperium is cliche and also spits on the canon.
In Year of Hell Annorax was trying to restore the Imperium to greatness and bring his wife back into existence. He was able to accomplish the former to about 98%, but could NEVER get the latter. When the Timeship was eliminated from existence in the 22nd century, the Krenim never had it as a superweapon option, and so the Imperium declined naturally, and the Krenim lived on and accepted it. Annorax also got his wife back. Two centuries later the Krenim are fine with the Imperium being gone. No Krenim has a problem with restoring the greater glory of the Imperium.
Trying to restore the Krenim species after the Vaadwaur and Iconian attacks is something he had already researched. It's already failed.
His current motivation is very personal and based on his personality. I prefer that to generic rule the galaxy.
Very very true.
Check the logs in the mission again, one of them is a personal log entry from his wife which means that the data capsule contained at least her personal data logs in addition to all the other information. Based on that and him being an outsider or loner who gets no recognition his motivations become more understandable. He lost the only person who loved him and his unborn child and it was all for nothing. As far as motivations for villains in Star Trek go that one is pretty good even though it is the same one as that of the original Annorax captain (his attempt to make the Krenim Empire stronger cost him his wife, see Year of Hell).
I disagree. Here's someone who can basically claim that the universe stole his life away and he can point the finger squarely at the Alliance and, let's not forget, you for being there at the critical moment. He can then extend that personal core into a broader criticism of the way the Alliance handled the Iconian war (see. destruction of Krenim homeworld, civilization) and bring that to other grieved parties (ex. the Na'kuhl) who can variously connect at personal or ideological levels depending on where the writers want to go.
It pretty much has everything, it's well integrated, and it's well established.
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Also I am not fond of time traveling. It is a trick for writers for the scifi genre. You can put your characters from the futures in a todays setting, which lowers the costs of a production. There is no point though for setting a story in the future and then let the characters travel to ... the future.
Except to show how nascent plot threads culminate when the time scales involved prevent that from happening in period (see. everything everyone said to you before the ceremony.) Basically "to show where everything is headed" (without resorting to a tedious sociology lecture.) :P
Also, you can do the exact opposite (Futurama, The Time Machine) or not anything like that at all (End of Eternity.) Time travel is a narrative device used on many occasions to do cool things. Not every time travel story works, but then again not every sci-fi story works either (see. Plan 9 from Out Space, Destiny.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
How?
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, but I'll make one attempt to explain how I view it and why I like it:
During the Iconian War we encounter the Krenim, get them involved in the war and together we use their time-erase technology twice. And in the end those acts did not stop the Iconians nor were they helpful in any way.
Since we are outside the bubble we do not actually remember doing that and the only reference to that erased timeline is in the data capsule that Noye was reading, including his wife's personal logs and information.
Noye starts viewing all those logs, sees how much better his life was and wants that back. He keeps viewing those logs again and again, gets more and more obsessed with the family that he lost and finally he snaps.
It's personal for him and his hatred for all those involved had much time to fester and grow.
Someone in this thread did not think that Noye could fall in love with someone he only got to know through the logs. Maybe he did or maybe he fell in love with the idea of having a family, who knows and does that distinction really matter? Is it possible and believable? To me the answer is a definite yes.
In the end it is a very human story of loss, grief and revenge. Noye's rational mind broke under the stress of those emotions and now he only wants back what he cannot have due to our (Fed,KDF,Rom) involvement and he will stop at nothing to get it.
Oh and on topic:
The whole Iconian storyline has major issues and problems:
According to the whole story arc all major factions have lost thousands of ships, millions, if not billions, of people and it's only Noye and the Na'Kuhl who want to change the present? Come on, where's Section 31? Where are the Romulan survivors who want to get their planet back? Where are the renegade captains in the galaxy?!?