rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,661Community Moderator
edited December 2015
One reason they may not have gone after Gods and Men or Renegades is... they've already been released. Damage done?
Besides... I saw Renegades and while the ship designs were interesting, the Starfleet Uniforms were frankly TRIBBLE and the acting was lackluster. The concept was interesting, kinda seeing the shady side of the Star Trek universe, but still... lackluster performances. Corin Nemec's character, the Starfleet captain that I don't remember the name of, came off as though he had a vendetta. And I hate to say it, but Walter's acting was a bit stale too. Tim Russ was kinda the only one who was putting anything into it, granted he was playing Tuvok...
Gods and Men and Renegades were semi low budget fan projects. Axanar sounds like it was going to be almost equal to an actual licensed and produced product and entirely possible that something was going on to attract the attention of CBS in a bad way. We're still going to have fan projects and fanfiction, but Axanar may have crossed a line somewhere that we haven't seen yet.
I say let it play out and see what happens. Not like we can do anything if CBS decides to ax the project on Legalities.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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So if there's some question about where the money is going, then the producers of Axanar may indeed be more open to litigation than I first believed.
But if there's a question about where the money's going why not (vaguely) bring that to the attention of those who backed the project (in the lawsuit press release) to deflect the negative response that trying to kill Axanar is likely to (and apparently has) generated? They may not be able to disclose details but explaining the principle of why it's worth taking an exception to Axanar (and not, say, Of God's and Men) is definitely in CBS/Paramount's PR interests.
As markhawkman said, it's not CBS/Paramount's place to sue the Axanar producers over misappropriated donations, but (if that has been happening (I haven't read up on it yet)) the place of the funding supporters to press charges for misappropriation of funds, or possibly obtaining funds by deception.* I suspect this is also nothing to do with IP protection, because Star Trek Continues operates with their sanction, and is arguably even more of an infringement than Axanar, given it is using main characters, rather than merely setting a story within the Star Trek universe... I suspect, this is because they have seen the mixed reactions to JJTrek, seen the largely lacklustre responses to Beyond's trailer, and the dissatisfaction at the idea of the new series being used as a bait for their planned subscription service. They know that fans aren't happy with them, but will continue to accept what their given in terms of official releases (so long as there's not something else offering a better product) So for them to have seen Prelude to Axanar, the massively positive responses its received, and then the massively disenfranchised responses their offerings are bringing, I can see why they've doused their drawers and thought that by squashing Axanar it will maintain their position as Top Banana, completely misunderstanding that fans of the franchise will support what fhey consider the best continuation of the franchise, not only 'official releases'. The days of Hollywood Enigma are gone. Twenty years ago,my classmates and I used to drool over Claudia Christian when Babylon Five was released. Now I email her dirty jokes rather than post them on facebook, which she then reposts on facebook herself... William Shatner was Captain Kirk, and that was that. Now Vic Mignogna is Captain Kirk, and doing every bit as good a job as the Shat ever did... (and without the TRIBBLE behaviour towards everyone around him) Music no longer has to be purchased, but can be streamed for free, on demand. Times have changed, but Hollywood doesn't seem to realize that, and thinks they can simply muscle out a smaller operation, and force fans to accept their product... The world's not like that anymore... That's the angle which I suspect CBS/Paramount are trying to play, and I can't see it succeeding...
*The feeling I had regarding the show I helped fund, was that the producer never intended to release it to the public, but simply wanted to do a vanity project for their showreel, and manipulated supporters via goodwill towards their pet-actors to facilitate that and thought that by using the view counter, they could get away with never showing it. That may or may not be the case, but it certainly felt like it, and the fact that the actress I met chose not to discuss her most recent project, which she was very aware that I had helped fund, spoke volumes...
I see many people here are still missing the point. It has nothing to do with greed, or the quality of a production, or any other real motivation.
US trademark law specifies that the holder of an IP must (in the words of the law) "vigorously defend" its trademark; failure to do so might result in that trademark being ruled invalid. That's why aspirin, once a trademark name for acetylsalicylic acid held by Bayer, is now a generic name, while Kleenex has not yet become a legally generic name for facial tissues - Kleenex has defended their trademark, while Bayer ignored abuses for too long.
Someone at CBS and/or Paramount has seen the attention Prelude To Axenar has drawn, and decided that it's time to "vigorously defend" the trademark on the Star Trek IP. That doesn't mean "put out a quality product", or "keep my favorite series running", or anything like that, it merely means taking violators to court. On the other hand, it's up to the judge to decide if they've let other fan projects go on for too long, and relinquished the trademark. If the judge agrees with CBS/Paramount, then the producers of Axenar are in violation, will probably be fined, and can only continue after that if they reach an agreement with the IP holder(s). On the other hand, if they agree with the producers of Axenar, that opens the floodgates for any Trek products at all, including stuff with absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever...
Posts on facebook by the producers of Star Trek Continues disprove that. They not only have official backing in word, but they have had it wielded in action against YouTube in the exact area:copyright infringement. That they have the backing shows that CBS aren't concerned with "vigorously defending" the Star Trek IP. That might be what CBS/Paramount are claiming they are doing, but the likelihood is that they are threatened by Axanar's popularity, and know that it forces them to up their game with regards their own output...
I suspect this is also nothing to do with IP protection, because Star Trek Continues operates with their sanction, and is arguably even more of an infringement than Axanar, given it is using main characters, rather than merely setting a story within the Star Trek universe... I suspect, this is because they have seen the mixed reactions to JJTrek, seen the largely lacklustre responses to Beyond's trailer, and the dissatisfaction at the idea of the new series being used as a bait for their planned subscription service.
Well in a way that is IP protection, just from the copyright holder's point of view. If Axanar has a significant impact on the reception of future Star Trek material (in short: is generally liked more) then it becomes easier to argue that this not-for-profit fan production has exceeded fair use and violated copyright. The film may benefit the Star Trek franchise (by promoting it with a good movie which celebrates the TV series) but it could undermine CBS/Paramount's long term business interests (hence lawsuit).
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I suspect this is also nothing to do with IP protection, because Star Trek Continues operates with their sanction, and is arguably even more of an infringement than Axanar, given it is using main characters, rather than merely setting a story within the Star Trek universe... I suspect, this is because they have seen the mixed reactions to JJTrek, seen the largely lacklustre responses to Beyond's trailer, and the dissatisfaction at the idea of the new series being used as a bait for their planned subscription service.
Well in a way that is IP protection, just from the copyright holder's point of view. If Axanar has a significant impact on the reception of future Star Trek material (in short: is generally liked more) then it becomes easier to argue that this not-for-profit fan production has exceeded fair use and violated copyright. The film may benefit the Star Trek franchise (by promoting it with a good movie which celebrates the TV series) but it could undermine CBS/Paramount's long term business interests (hence lawsuit).
In that regard, yes, it is, but not for actual love for the IP or wanting to protect the IP, just wanting to protect their revenue stream. It's a kid taking his ball in so no one else can play, for no reason other than he can, not because he doesn't want to play with the other kids (because as mentioned, Star Trek Continues has backing which has been recently demonstrated by CBS, ergo it can't simply be 'wanting to protect the product')
No, it's a kid taking his ball because if he doesn't, it's going to become everybody's ball and he'll never be able to take it home again.
If that is the case, why did CBS defend Star Trek Continues use of the IP, earlier in the year, when YouTube removed an episode because they (YouTube) thought it was a copyright violation? Posts on facebook by the producers stated that CBS legal contacted YouTube and made them re-host the episode. I'm sorry, but that utterly blows any claim that they are "vigorously defending" right out of the water, meaning that they must be doing it for other reasons, and the suggestion upthread, that it might somehow have something to do with the new Star Trek series, would certainly make sense. What you're saying is certainly legally correct, and under other circumstances, I would agree with you, but having seen the (several) posts by the producers (on the subject) myself, I know that they have CBS's full backing, ergo this Axanar suit cannot simply be "vigorous defense"...
[Edit to add]
It's like Ryan Sweeting filing for spousal support from Kaley Cuoco. He's not doing it because he needs the money, or because he can even claim long-term emotional investment or the impact of children on his career: He's claiming it because he can, and because he knows it creates procedures(hassles) that she'll have to go through to deal with it. He's claiming it because he's a tool, and it's a petty way of giving her grief to deal with. In the same vein, on paper, CBS/Paramount!/ suit will look 100% kosher, but it won't be, becuase it's utterly undermined by their actions in support of Star Trek Continues. Ergo, it has to be something else...
No, it's a kid taking his ball because if he doesn't, it's going to become everybody's ball and he'll never be able to take it home again.
Plaintiffs don't typically risk their copyrighting when filing suit. If the defendant wins (as for example happened in the case between the estate of William Falkner and Sony Picture Studios) the floodgates don't open on all possible derivatives and reproductions. It's generally ruled that example falls under fair use. Of course the question could possibly (ie. that it's not impossible) arise of whether or not CBS/Paramount have a claim to the Star Trek IP, but (I think) it's highly unlikely (based on comparable examples) to be the crux of the case or even something that's brought up at all. It also hasn't been the Axanar production's justification for what they're doing. They've stressed the non-commercial aspect instead (implicitly, that it falls under fair use), which is probably how they're going to proceed with this.
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Seems to me that an offer of a studio stamp of approval would resolve the matter for both parties. If as you suggest, Jonsills, it is simply a matter of preventing loss of copyright, perhaps a judge will simply acknowledge that. By telling Paramount/CBS that since they bothered with the lawsuit, now offer some simple, official guideline instead of pussyfooting around the fan productions. This would, IMO, fulfull the record for vigorous defense of the IP holder. Might this lawsuit be a necessary formality?
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Plaintiffs don't typically risk their copyrighting when filing suit. If the defendant wins (as for example happened in the case between the estate of William Falkner and Sony Picture Studios) the floodgates don't open on all possible derivatives and reproductions. It's generally ruled that example falls under fair use. Of course the question could possibly (ie. that it's not impossible) arise of whether or not CBS/Paramount have a claim to the Star Trek IP, but (I think) it's highly unlikely (based on comparable examples) to be the crux of the case or even something that's brought up at all. It also hasn't been the Axanar production's justification for what they're doing. They've stressed the non-commercial aspect instead (implicitly, that it falls under fair use), which is probably how they're going to proceed with this.
Actually I recall hearing about an instance where a companies copyrights were called into question during a lawsuit. It was National Comics Publications, Inc. v. Fawcett Publications, Inc. where DC Comics (under an earlier name) sued Fawcett comics for infringing on Superman with their Shazam! comics. In the first hearing Fawcett successfully argued that DC had let their copyrights on Superman expire due to failure to defend the copyright. So for a brief period Superman was public domain, at least until an appeal hearing countered the first ruling.
Even if the makers of Axanar were to win, CBS has the money to keep hounding them until they go under. In this case resistance really is futile.
Actually I recall hearing about an instance where a companies copyrights were called into question during a lawsuit. It was National Comics Publications, Inc. v. Fawcett Publications, Inc. where DC Comics (under an earlier name) sued Fawcett comics for infringing on Superman with their Shazam! comics. In the first hearing Fawcett successfully argued that DC had let their copyrights on Superman expire due to failure to defend the copyright. So for a brief period Superman was public domain, at least until an appeal hearing countered the first ruling.
Huh, forgot about that one. That's a good example. It's fairest to say then it really depends then on the circumstances. If Axanar productions was trying to likewise sell a Star Trek derivative under the presumption that the Star Trek copyright was no longer valid then the case would probably go in that direction. But as they haven't (they've been stressing that their work is pretty much only fan service with no commercial application, at least as far as I've seen) it's probably more likely to center around the question of fair use, not copyright status.
Even if the makers of Axanar were to win, CBS has the money to keep hounding them until they go under. In this case resistance really is futile.
Quite possibly, but keep in mind that unlike some companies CBS/Paramount really have to worry about brand perception. If they lose the case but continue indefinitely on appeals (against a fan production) they do risk damaging the image of their companies and the franchise with series fans. At what point that risk becomes significant depends on how closely people follow the case as it continues, whether or not people remain sympathetic to Axanar productions, and whether or not the issue is really picked up on the internet. But it could be a limiting factor on how far CBS could push this.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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Plaintiffs don't typically risk their copyrighting when filing suit. If the defendant wins (as for example happened in the case between the estate of William Falkner and Sony Picture Studios) the floodgates don't open on all possible derivatives and reproductions. It's generally ruled that example falls under fair use. Of course the question could possibly (ie. that it's not impossible) arise of whether or not CBS/Paramount have a claim to the Star Trek IP, but (I think) it's highly unlikely (based on comparable examples) to be the crux of the case or even something that's brought up at all. It also hasn't been the Axanar production's justification for what they're doing. They've stressed the non-commercial aspect instead (implicitly, that it falls under fair use), which is probably how they're going to proceed with this.
Actually I recall hearing about an instance where a companies copyrights were called into question during a lawsuit. It was National Comics Publications, Inc. v. Fawcett Publications, Inc. where DC Comics (under an earlier name) sued Fawcett comics for infringing on Superman with their Shazam! comics. In the first hearing Fawcett successfully argued that DC had let their copyrights on Superman expire due to failure to defend the copyright. So for a brief period Superman was public domain, at least until an appeal hearing countered the first ruling.
Even if the makers of Axanar were to win, CBS has the money to keep hounding them until they go under. In this case resistance really is futile.
If fans see CBS destroy Axanar for no good reason other than 'because they can', I suspect it would cost CBS in terms of support and future subscriptions etc...
Let's be honest, there hasn't been any great Star Trek production (in television and movies) in a long time, until Axanar came along. The team of Axanar understood what Star Trek was about and finally have the fans what they have been waiting for. Instead of embracing this, Paramount and CBS are suing the only thing that has the fans (new and old) excited. How can they not see what a bad move this is by potentially removing the only good thing that has come out in a long time. Instead, they should embrace Axanar and recognize that they have done something that CBS and Paramount has failed at in many years. Instead of destroying and punishing your fans, bring Axanar into the franchise. Make money on it but keep the original creator of Axinar and let them continue make this a great series/film. CBS and Paramount has only so far confused the brand with production such as Enterprise and the reboot JJ-verse movie style ( eliminating the backbone of Star Trek that is Vulcans and romulans). Although one can appreciate the new actors and the movies as standalone, they are not enough .. And frankly confusing me as a fan .. Im sad to see this development .. Don't be idiots!!!
Posts on facebook by the producers of Star Trek Continues disprove that. They not only have official backing in word, but they have had it wielded in action against YouTube in the exact area:copyright infringement. That they have the backing shows that CBS aren't concerned with "vigorously defending" the Star Trek IP.
On the contrary, it means defending from UNAUTHORIZED usage. So all they really have to do is choose whether to give a project their stamp of approval. Ignoring usage is the problem. If they can say "we chose to let them" and put it in writing. Then that specific project has now been "defended". In Axanar's case.... there are reports that there were representatives talking to the Axanar people prior to this. The particulars were not made public, but It seems as if CBS gave them an ultimatum which they chose to ignore.
Ok I had no idea Todd no longer was with Axanar .. That is concerning. It does suggest something is faul here.
My disappointment is that Axanar seemed to be well produced.. It would be ashame if team at Axanar did something to the IP law. I wish the owners has supported this from the start.
Instead of working WITH the people producing Axanar and learning from them of course we just smite it and continue to produce lackluster, half assed material because that worked so well for the past twenty years we sat on the IP and did nothing of value with it...
I'd wish this would weaken fan support of CBS/Paramount, but we mustn't forget it is Star Trek - fans would still throw their money at the big company even if they sued every signle person watching the new Star Trek show. They cn literally do whatever they want.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Not copyright. Trademark. Copyrights are more stringently protected by the law; a copyright holder typically only has to notify someone that they're violating the right in order to retain it. (This is part of the reason why, outside RIAA actions, online piracy really isn't punished that much.)
Trademark, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish - if you don't defend your trademark, others can start using it. So, for instance, if CBS did not defend their trademark on Star Trek TOS, you'd still be breaking copyright law if you filmed your own versions of the episodes for profit, but you'd be free to make a profit from your own usage of the names Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, and USS Enterprise as the name of a spacecraft. (The Superman/Captain Marvel thing was a matter of trademark, and was brought up again when Marvel Comics was formed. That's why Marvel Comics is careful to always have a character named Captain Marvel, that they might retain their part of the oddly-shared trademark on the name. DC may have abandoned the portion they purchased from Fawcett when they decided to rename Billy Batson's alter ego Shazam instead of Capt. Marvel...)
That's why I think CBS/Paramount might prefer to settle out of court with the Axanar folks - so that the status of their trademark doesn't become settled law in the wrong direction.
Posts on facebook by the producers of Star Trek Continues disprove that. They not only have official backing in word, but they have had it wielded in action against YouTube in the exact area:copyright infringement. That they have the backing shows that CBS aren't concerned with "vigorously defending" the Star Trek IP.
On the contrary, it means defending from UNAUTHORIZED usage. So all they really have to do is choose whether to give a project their stamp of approval. Ignoring usage is the problem. If they can say "we chose to let them" and put it in writing. Then that specific project has now been "defended". In Axanar's case.... there are reports that there were representatives talking to the Axanar people prior to this. The particulars were not made public, but It seems as if CBS gave them an ultimatum which they chose to ignore.
Aaaaaahhhhhh, I seeeee! Star Trek Continues is Authorized, Axanar is Not... Gotcha... Puts a slightly different spin on it. I still suspect that the reason is that they felt Axanar was treasing on their toes and potentially showing them up, or doing something which impacted on the new series, although the cryptic tweets from Tony Todd definitely suggest that something not quite right has gone on with the producers...
The official line from CBS and Paramount, which manage the TV and film rights to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise, respectively, is not to endorse such a production.
“CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved,” a representative from the network told TheWrap. “We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.”
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Now I dont get it. Axanar are making DVD for people that donated alot, but so are Renegades etc. It got 1 million FROM fans donation. So what is the problem here that got them sued anyway?
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
The official line from CBS and Paramount, which manage the TV and film rights to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise, respectively, is not to endorse such a production.
“CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved,” a representative from the network told TheWrap. “We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.”
The commercial part is where they have a point. Even though Axanar might be a non-comm product, they generated a million dollars and they "trade" Blu-Rays and whatnot for "donations" - they went too far on this one, they effectively generate income from selling stuff. Maybe that will break their necks.
It doesn't change the fact, though, that the big studios will rather stomp everything instead of trying to understand why Axanar reached that goal and why fans like it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Still reading through all of this, but @valoreah and @gulberat pretty much hit the points I'm thinking of, after reading this.
I think the proximity to both the new series and Beyond could be why they're shutting Axanar down. Let's be honest, Renegades and STC won't be confused with the new series or movie... their quality is too poor. STC does a good job of capturing the 60s-style of TOS, but the new series or movie won't look anything like it. And while Renegades uses real Trek actors... I'm sorry, but the writing and production quality are TRIBBLE. And, yes, I agree that both of these could still get slapped with the legal...
Axanar was ambitious, and in my opinion, very cocky. They're aiming to do the best visual effects they can get away with. They are not only using Trek actors, but they are using Trek production staff alum... a lot of them. And while there's a few canonical references in the project, there are a lot of unique characters in it. They still may not be up to the production quality of the new series or film... I think they could honestly be in spitting distance of them. That's reason enough to go after them, legally.
Add to that, Axanar's four crowd-sourced campaigns, and the questions about their bookkeeping that have hung on them for a while... they ran out of time. Probably also didn't help that Peters and Burnett took ample chances to dump all over Paramount's current film franchise... yeah, brilliant idea to bite one of the hands that could legally sue your TRIBBLE.
Not sure if the new series will actually take elements from Axanar or not... it's an interesting thought, and even more so if they were in negotiations to be Series Six but talks broke down. Still, I think that there's enough legal prescedence to bypass that discussion. And, yes, it is interesting that both Paramount and CBS filed this lawsuit...
The official line from CBS and Paramount, which manage the TV and film rights to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise, respectively, is not to endorse such a production.
“CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved,” a representative from the network told TheWrap. “We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.”
The commercial part is where they have a point. Even though Axanar might be a non-comm product, they generated a million dollars and they "trade" Blu-Rays and whatnot for "donations" - they went too far on this one, they effectively generate income from selling stuff. Maybe that will break their necks.
It doesn't change the fact, though, that the big studios will rather stomp everything instead of trying to understand why Axanar reached that goal and why fans like it.
If they are generating income then that is what got the suit.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Its when the pretty pony is uglier than the supposed to be ugly pony that the ugly sticks come out.
Then its hard for people to fall in love with ponies again so then you go another decade without trek. Then we will be like we hated lockboxes but we didn't know what we had we should have appreciated those scam boxes better than we did because now we got no trek and no gamble and we just sad ponies now.
The official line from CBS and Paramount, which manage the TV and film rights to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise, respectively, is not to endorse such a production.
“CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved,” a representative from the network told TheWrap. “We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.”
The commercial part is where they have a point. Even though Axanar might be a non-comm product, they generated a million dollars and they "trade" Blu-Rays and whatnot for "donations" - they went too far on this one, they effectively generate income from selling stuff. Maybe that will break their necks.
It doesn't change the fact, though, that the big studios will rather stomp everything instead of trying to understand why Axanar reached that goal and why fans like it.
Renegades have also discs too, actually.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Now I dont get it. Axanar are making DVD for people that donated alot, but so are Renegades etc. It got 1 million FROM fans donation. So what is the problem here that got them sued anyway?
Truthfully.... I think it comes down to the Axanar people trying to cut CBS out. We don't know much, but we do know that CBS had talked to the Axanar team and given them guidelines to follow if their project was to be allowed to exist. If Axanar chose to ignore those guidelines... then yeah....
So, I just jumped on Axanar's site, and read a blog from Alec Peters... and, again, he's coming off as a little cocky. I don't think that's very smart.
Sure, stand behind your project, but this ain't going to be a thing that's saved by the fans. Fox killed off an Aliens fan film because it infringed too closely to the copyright (granted, it may actually share plot elements with the forthcoming official film from Fox)... so, there already is kinda precedence for this.
Plus, the combined legal power of both Paramount and CBS (which is what everyone else is reporting, except Peters himself) is a big deal... many need to remember that the IP is split between two separate companies, so for both of them to have claim to a lawsuit must say something. It would be like Fox and Disney coming together to sue a third party over Marvel properties.
As long as they keep filming and whatnot throughout the process we may eventually get the film leaked or something if CBS do win.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
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'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The commercial part is where they have a point. Even though Axanar might be a non-comm product, they generated a million dollars and they "trade" Blu-Rays and whatnot for "donations" - they went too far on this one, they effectively generate income from selling stuff. Maybe that will break their necks.
There's no maybe about it. When they crowdfunded, they established a revenue stream. The money basically means that if CBS does not defend their trademark at this point, they're very much at risk of losing the trademark outright to the public domain. And because of the money, Axanar has precisely zero chance of winning this.
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Besides... I saw Renegades and while the ship designs were interesting, the Starfleet Uniforms were frankly TRIBBLE and the acting was lackluster. The concept was interesting, kinda seeing the shady side of the Star Trek universe, but still... lackluster performances. Corin Nemec's character, the Starfleet captain that I don't remember the name of, came off as though he had a vendetta. And I hate to say it, but Walter's acting was a bit stale too. Tim Russ was kinda the only one who was putting anything into it, granted he was playing Tuvok...
Gods and Men and Renegades were semi low budget fan projects. Axanar sounds like it was going to be almost equal to an actual licensed and produced product and entirely possible that something was going on to attract the attention of CBS in a bad way. We're still going to have fan projects and fanfiction, but Axanar may have crossed a line somewhere that we haven't seen yet.
I say let it play out and see what happens. Not like we can do anything if CBS decides to ax the project on Legalities.
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colored text = mod mode
*The feeling I had regarding the show I helped fund, was that the producer never intended to release it to the public, but simply wanted to do a vanity project for their showreel, and manipulated supporters via goodwill towards their pet-actors to facilitate that and thought that by using the view counter, they could get away with never showing it. That may or may not be the case, but it certainly felt like it, and the fact that the actress I met chose not to discuss her most recent project, which she was very aware that I had helped fund, spoke volumes...
Posts on facebook by the producers of Star Trek Continues disprove that. They not only have official backing in word, but they have had it wielded in action against YouTube in the exact area:copyright infringement. That they have the backing shows that CBS aren't concerned with "vigorously defending" the Star Trek IP. That might be what CBS/Paramount are claiming they are doing, but the likelihood is that they are threatened by Axanar's popularity, and know that it forces them to up their game with regards their own output...
Well in a way that is IP protection, just from the copyright holder's point of view. If Axanar has a significant impact on the reception of future Star Trek material (in short: is generally liked more) then it becomes easier to argue that this not-for-profit fan production has exceeded fair use and violated copyright. The film may benefit the Star Trek franchise (by promoting it with a good movie which celebrates the TV series) but it could undermine CBS/Paramount's long term business interests (hence lawsuit).
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[Edit to add]
It's like Ryan Sweeting filing for spousal support from Kaley Cuoco. He's not doing it because he needs the money, or because he can even claim long-term emotional investment or the impact of children on his career: He's claiming it because he can, and because he knows it creates procedures(hassles) that she'll have to go through to deal with it. He's claiming it because he's a tool, and it's a petty way of giving her grief to deal with. In the same vein, on paper, CBS/Paramount!/ suit will look 100% kosher, but it won't be, becuase it's utterly undermined by their actions in support of Star Trek Continues. Ergo, it has to be something else...
Plaintiffs don't typically risk their copyrighting when filing suit. If the defendant wins (as for example happened in the case between the estate of William Falkner and Sony Picture Studios) the floodgates don't open on all possible derivatives and reproductions. It's generally ruled that example falls under fair use. Of course the question could possibly (ie. that it's not impossible) arise of whether or not CBS/Paramount have a claim to the Star Trek IP, but (I think) it's highly unlikely (based on comparable examples) to be the crux of the case or even something that's brought up at all. It also hasn't been the Axanar production's justification for what they're doing. They've stressed the non-commercial aspect instead (implicitly, that it falls under fair use), which is probably how they're going to proceed with this.
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Actually I recall hearing about an instance where a companies copyrights were called into question during a lawsuit. It was National Comics Publications, Inc. v. Fawcett Publications, Inc. where DC Comics (under an earlier name) sued Fawcett comics for infringing on Superman with their Shazam! comics. In the first hearing Fawcett successfully argued that DC had let their copyrights on Superman expire due to failure to defend the copyright. So for a brief period Superman was public domain, at least until an appeal hearing countered the first ruling.
Even if the makers of Axanar were to win, CBS has the money to keep hounding them until they go under. In this case resistance really is futile.
Huh, forgot about that one. That's a good example. It's fairest to say then it really depends then on the circumstances. If Axanar productions was trying to likewise sell a Star Trek derivative under the presumption that the Star Trek copyright was no longer valid then the case would probably go in that direction. But as they haven't (they've been stressing that their work is pretty much only fan service with no commercial application, at least as far as I've seen) it's probably more likely to center around the question of fair use, not copyright status.
Quite possibly, but keep in mind that unlike some companies CBS/Paramount really have to worry about brand perception. If they lose the case but continue indefinitely on appeals (against a fan production) they do risk damaging the image of their companies and the franchise with series fans. At what point that risk becomes significant depends on how closely people follow the case as it continues, whether or not people remain sympathetic to Axanar productions, and whether or not the issue is really picked up on the internet. But it could be a limiting factor on how far CBS could push this.
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My disappointment is that Axanar seemed to be well produced.. It would be ashame if team at Axanar did something to the IP law. I wish the owners has supported this from the start.
Really!? COME ON!
Instead of working WITH the people producing Axanar and learning from them of course we just smite it and continue to produce lackluster, half assed material because that worked so well for the past twenty years we sat on the IP and did nothing of value with it...
I'd wish this would weaken fan support of CBS/Paramount, but we mustn't forget it is Star Trek - fans would still throw their money at the big company even if they sued every signle person watching the new Star Trek show. They cn literally do whatever they want.
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Trademark, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish - if you don't defend your trademark, others can start using it. So, for instance, if CBS did not defend their trademark on Star Trek TOS, you'd still be breaking copyright law if you filmed your own versions of the episodes for profit, but you'd be free to make a profit from your own usage of the names Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, and USS Enterprise as the name of a spacecraft. (The Superman/Captain Marvel thing was a matter of trademark, and was brought up again when Marvel Comics was formed. That's why Marvel Comics is careful to always have a character named Captain Marvel, that they might retain their part of the oddly-shared trademark on the name. DC may have abandoned the portion they purchased from Fawcett when they decided to rename Billy Batson's alter ego Shazam instead of Capt. Marvel...)
That's why I think CBS/Paramount might prefer to settle out of court with the Axanar folks - so that the status of their trademark doesn't become settled law in the wrong direction.
The official line from CBS and Paramount, which manage the TV and film rights to the ‘Star Trek’ franchise, respectively, is not to endorse such a production.
“CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved,” a representative from the network told TheWrap. “We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.”
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The commercial part is where they have a point. Even though Axanar might be a non-comm product, they generated a million dollars and they "trade" Blu-Rays and whatnot for "donations" - they went too far on this one, they effectively generate income from selling stuff. Maybe that will break their necks.
It doesn't change the fact, though, that the big studios will rather stomp everything instead of trying to understand why Axanar reached that goal and why fans like it.
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I think the proximity to both the new series and Beyond could be why they're shutting Axanar down. Let's be honest, Renegades and STC won't be confused with the new series or movie... their quality is too poor. STC does a good job of capturing the 60s-style of TOS, but the new series or movie won't look anything like it. And while Renegades uses real Trek actors... I'm sorry, but the writing and production quality are TRIBBLE. And, yes, I agree that both of these could still get slapped with the legal...
Axanar was ambitious, and in my opinion, very cocky. They're aiming to do the best visual effects they can get away with. They are not only using Trek actors, but they are using Trek production staff alum... a lot of them. And while there's a few canonical references in the project, there are a lot of unique characters in it. They still may not be up to the production quality of the new series or film... I think they could honestly be in spitting distance of them. That's reason enough to go after them, legally.
Add to that, Axanar's four crowd-sourced campaigns, and the questions about their bookkeeping that have hung on them for a while... they ran out of time. Probably also didn't help that Peters and Burnett took ample chances to dump all over Paramount's current film franchise... yeah, brilliant idea to bite one of the hands that could legally sue your TRIBBLE.
Not sure if the new series will actually take elements from Axanar or not... it's an interesting thought, and even more so if they were in negotiations to be Series Six but talks broke down. Still, I think that there's enough legal prescedence to bypass that discussion. And, yes, it is interesting that both Paramount and CBS filed this lawsuit...
If they are generating income then that is what got the suit.
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Then its hard for people to fall in love with ponies again so then you go another decade without trek. Then we will be like we hated lockboxes but we didn't know what we had we should have appreciated those scam boxes better than we did because now we got no trek and no gamble and we just sad ponies now.
Renegades have also discs too, actually.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
My character Tsin'xing
Sure, stand behind your project, but this ain't going to be a thing that's saved by the fans. Fox killed off an Aliens fan film because it infringed too closely to the copyright (granted, it may actually share plot elements with the forthcoming official film from Fox)... so, there already is kinda precedence for this.
Plus, the combined legal power of both Paramount and CBS (which is what everyone else is reporting, except Peters himself) is a big deal... many need to remember that the IP is split between two separate companies, so for both of them to have claim to a lawsuit must say something. It would be like Fox and Disney coming together to sue a third party over Marvel properties.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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There's no maybe about it. When they crowdfunded, they established a revenue stream. The money basically means that if CBS does not defend their trademark at this point, they're very much at risk of losing the trademark outright to the public domain. And because of the money, Axanar has precisely zero chance of winning this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks
/ IANAL.