Redenomination worked fine in 2005 for the Turkish Lira. Even the removal of ONE zero would be enough. Consider: Not a single thing in the game costs single-digit EC. Even replicating food is 20 EC. Redenominating it into 2 EC would postpone the inevitable int32 explosion for awhile to come.
First of course you are correct that you could modify the worth of money by dividing every amount by a certain number (scratching zeros off is of course the least intrusive and most intuitive way to do so). I worded that badly. There will always be rounding issues (and only buying stuff is all divisible by 10, selling stuff can be 8 or 6, not to mention the last digits of any odd price for that vendor trash console you picked up), but that is surmountable.
Difference between MMO inflation and RL inflation: in Turkey (or Zimbabwe or possibly most famously Germany in the 1920s) inflation was all across the board. Which means: want a sweet? Costs 2 million. Lower monetary values did not really exist anymore. Here they do, because there are players who do not have dozens of millions of ec and they need a distinction at the lower end, too. And they rely a lot on the fixed prices of commodities and suchlike. The problem here is not an all across the board inflation, it is the very rich getting way richer while the bottom stays at the same level. Just like a Bill Gates lives in a different world than the most of us. Nota bene: this is not a complaint about unfair gaming economics, it is just that when some players play a game for 5 years regularily and others don't, the former will have way more money than the latter, which is to be expected, and this gap will widen more and more. This doesn't mean that a 0 cannot be sacrificed but we should watch out that the lower level economy does not become too low resolution.
If 32 bit is an issue (which may well be but I don't know) we still can double the cap and buy us some time for that.
The idea of rewards becoming account bound on pickup would severely change the way the lockbox system works. I don't say it can't be working as well, but I doubt that it would be wise for Cryptic to do so, because I think it would cut into their profits.
Keys would be less sought after, which would make the key parallel economy collapse (some might see a good thing there). Opening lockboxes would be less desirable because you couldn't get rid of the stuff you don't need and an Annorax would not necessarily be a good price anymore. You can't even trade it for a Sheshar anymore (or the other way round). Players willing to fork out 700M ec would not necessarily be willing (or able) to spend RL $, and so they would be sitting on their money, which would also become worthless. This would also move the slider between F2P and P2W towards the latter, wherever you locate STO at the moment. True, with money you can get almost every item in this game (buy keys for 1000s of dollars, sell them, buy stuff you want off the exchange), but you still can get almost everything just by playing, you may argue about the zen store items, but lockbox items you can get (as long as there is supply, which of course is scarce).
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
You're assuming that there is such a thing as a "true price" of a ship. But there isn't. Unless we get many sellers and many buyers, the usual market rules which trend toward a price do not apply.
And for objects in an at least somewhat competetive environment, the prices for top items trend to explode and you will often get 90% of the quality for 10% of the price. Look, e.g., at sports: the top players in major sports earn immense amounts of money, multiple times the salaries of others who may be noticeably less qualified, but not necessarily by a lot. Why? Becaus when you have a very good team and want to improve you cannot hire two quarterbacks to play at the same time. So you're looking for the limited number of people who improve on what you have. And that is a sellers market. Same with ships - you can only fly one. So for people who just want that extra 1%, if there is nothing else they can do, this 1% will be worth a lot because their ec don't have any other use for them at that point. Which in turn brings in people using it as a status symbol without really knowing what to do.
And while I dislike players as described by you and @cidjack, I cannot really complain too much about them. If I see something severely underpriced at the exchange, I will buy and then resell it. Same story, only I am too lazy (and would have too little fun) actively looking out for these opportunities.
Actually there is a true price. If for example take our Anorax I've been using as an example. Suppose the ship is selling for 600m but you have 2 or 3 people that just don't care and bought for 650m. Now if the other 99% of the market buys at 600m, then the true price is 600m. The problem right now is there is nothing to compare the prices to on. You don't know if you're getting a good deal or being completely ripped off. It's pretty much, do you want it it or not. You have no way to tell if there are other sellers out there aside from catching the occasional spam.
Someone in TheTradingChannel just offered and paid 1,000,000,000 ec for a vonph!
!!!!
History has been made!
And we've just crossed into insanity and full on greed. there's a sucker born every minute I suppose.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Actually there is a true price. If for example take our Anorax I've been using as an example. Suppose the ship is selling for 600m but you have 2 or 3 people that just don't care and bought for 650m. Now if the other 99% of the market buys at 600m, then the true price is 600m. The problem right now is there is nothing to compare the prices to on. You don't know if you're getting a good deal or being completely ripped off. It's pretty much, do you want it it or not. You have no way to tell if there are other sellers out there aside from catching the occasional spam.
First of all, I agree that the system lacks price transparency for the high end goods as it is set up, and that should be improved upon.
But then: no. Sorry, just no. Already your assumption that there are "99% willing to pay 600M" is a very strong and dubitable one. There are a lot of players who wouldn't pay this amount on a ship at all, no matter what. There are a lot of people who would pay way more if only they had the money. Some will pay more because the Annorax fits their style, some less because they prefer other ships.
In economic situations, we measure utility. And that is different for every individual. What you are willing to pay depends on how much you want the one good (Annorax) and how much you want the other good (ec). And, assuming rational behavior (which in itself is often questionable), each individual setting of a price can be correct even if they differ vastly. None of these prices is more "true" than another.
There is such a thing as a market price for a lot of goods, but that's a totally different concept. It's just the price where demand and supply are equal. More people would be willing to sell, more would be willing to buy, but not at that price. In a transparent market you wouldn't pay 650M if you knew you could get the same thing for 600M but that has nothing to do with what you consider the correct price of the good. If that weren't the case, no trades at all would happen, since everybody values the goods at the "true price", so buying or selling does not improve what he needs or wants, but would be a hassle, so people wouldn't do it.
And even if 99% of the buyers would agree that 600M would be a fair equivalent that wouldn't mean that the sellers share that feeling. The market price is set by buyers and sellers, there is no way to tell them they are right or wrong in what they think, so there is no "true price".
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
my partner found both Herald ships in 20 boxes. Got an offer for 2.5 billion for the carrier. She may keep them though and go for the solar gate.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You're assuming that there is such a thing as a "true price" of a ship. But there isn't. Unless we get many sellers and many buyers, the usual market rules which trend toward a price do not apply.
And for objects in an at least somewhat competetive environment, the prices for top items trend to explode and you will often get 90% of the quality for 10% of the price. Look, e.g., at sports: the top players in major sports earn immense amounts of money, multiple times the salaries of others who may be noticeably less qualified, but not necessarily by a lot. Why? Becaus when you have a very good team and want to improve you cannot hire two quarterbacks to play at the same time. So you're looking for the limited number of people who improve on what you have. And that is a sellers market. Same with ships - you can only fly one. So for people who just want that extra 1%, if there is nothing else they can do, this 1% will be worth a lot because their ec don't have any other use for them at that point. Which in turn brings in people using it as a status symbol without really knowing what to do.
And while I dislike players as described by you and @cidjack, I cannot really complain too much about them. If I see something severely underpriced at the exchange, I will buy and then resell it. Same story, only I am too lazy (and would have too little fun) actively looking out for these opportunities.
Actually there is a true price. If for example take our Anorax I've been using as an example. Suppose the ship is selling for 600m but you have 2 or 3 people that just don't care and bought for 650m. Now if the other 99% of the market buys at 600m, then the true price is 600m. The problem right now is there is nothing to compare the prices to on. You don't know if you're getting a good deal or being completely ripped off. It's pretty much, do you want it it or not. You have no way to tell if there are other sellers out there aside from catching the occasional spam.
that's not strictly true, the price of anything depends or rarity and desirability.
if a lockbox ship is highly desired by players but they are only scarce then the value could be say 600m ec but as the number of ships that can be bought dwindles and there are only a few around or even just one left the value will skyrocket if they are still just as desirable, if there are a great number of them and players are not overly bothered to own them the price could be as little as 2m-3m.
in that respect there is no true value of anything just the price players are willing to pay to buy a thing depending on the levels of scarcity and desirability.
but to reverse your example say your Anorax is usually selling for 600m then someone comes along who just wants to get shot of the thing cos he hates them and he sells it for 1m does that then make the true price 1m as according to your premise if that's what one sold for surely that's what they all should sell for.
just because there might be a few players selling for 600m does not mean another cant ask for 650m.
its up to players to make the choice if they think a price is too high for anything.
putting stuff on the exchange does not help as prices fluctuate wildly on there and you could go there one day and see a thing with a few selling for say 10k go back every day for the next month and they are selling for 1m each.
if a buyer goes on the exchange and sees that several Anorax selling for 650m he might not realise that the day before there were 10 of them all selling for 600m each.
Post edited by bobbydazlers on
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
How about no. I would like to keep ships out of the grey trade, but I also know that if you put the limit at a billion, we will see stuff at a billion. Would be better to just set a limit as to how much a character can carry. Like 500 million. Then nothing can ever be more expensive as on the Exchange unless people want to trust a person going from one character to the next to get the full amount.
The Exchange is put in place to prevent trade scamming, the fact we have ships priced so that they can never be in the official trade is absurd.
Agreed...you guys will see soon a billion prized ships. I rather buy one from a trade in chat zone rather than to see the exorbitant gazillion price on the exchange....doomed idea for those who don't have that much cash. There are other venues like:
How would you squash "WTB" chatter? Auto ban people using it too often? Then soon new codes will come up and harmless smaller players would suffer too.
And a fee would only give incentives to not sell via the exchange but in the chat market, making prices even more opaque. Some may also not sell at all since people tend to think they will lose money if they get 10% less - also prices across the board would rise.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
that's not strictly true, the price of anything depends or rarity and desirability.
if a lockbox ship is highly desired by players but they are only scarce then the value could be say 600m ec but as the number of ships that can be bought dwindles and there are only a few around or even just one left the value will skyrocket if they are still just as desirable, if there are a great number of them and players are not overly bothered to own them the price could be as little as 2m-3m.
in that respect there is no true value of anything just the price players are willing to pay to buy a thing depending on the levels of scarcity and desirability.
but to reverse your example say your Anorax is usually selling for 600m then someone comes along who just wants to get shot of the thing cos he hates them and he sells it for 1m does that then make the true price 1m as according to your premise if that's what one sold for surely that's what they all should sell for.
just because there might be a few players selling for 600m does not mean another cant ask for 650m.
its up to players to make the choice if they think a price is too high for anything.
putting stuff on the exchange does not help as prices fluctuate wildly on there and you could go there one day and see a thing with a few selling for say 10k go back every day for the next month and they are selling for 1m each.
if a buyer goes on the exchange and sees that several Anorax selling for 650m he might not realise that the day before there were 10 of them all selling for 600m each.
It's obvious to me that you didn't bother to pay attention to what I said but just decided to skim, and you barely did even that much. Per the example I gave of the Annorax, you may have 2 or 3 people that that pay more than the 600m such as 650m, but if they're the only 3 and the other 99% of the time the ship sells for 600m, then the true price is 600m and the 2 or 3 that bought above 600m are just flukes in the market. People can ask any price they wish but that does not mean they will get that price. I can ask 1b ec for an old Mirror Star Cruiser but I'm not going to get that. There's also a huge difference in a ship such as the Voth Bulwark that's not been around in an event for years, and a ship such as the Vonph which just came out. The Bulwark has a legitimate reason to be highly priced, the Vonph has no legitimate reason to get near the currency cap save for greed.
Also, do you seriously hear yourself. The moment you said that putting things on the exchange does not help you lost all credibility you had. Yes prices are going to fluctuate and no one is saying they're not so I have no idea where you got that. If someone sells an Anorax for 1m per your example, then that is a fluke, nothing more.
The point behind increasing the limit is it takes the ships out of the gray area and puts them out into the open on the exchange where there is no guess work. It also makes it much much harder for certain individuals to artificially manipulate the market. As to my original example, suppose Joe Shmoe is looking to get an Anorax and he puts out a tell. Johnny 2x4 comes along and offers to sell him the ship for 650m. Joe goes to check the exchange to see how good of a price that is, he see's Johnny is 50m above the norm, he knows Johnny is trying to rip him off. If you allow it to stay in the gray area, Joe has nothing to compare to price wise and as such accepts Johnny's offer. In doing so Johnny has just taken Joe for a 50m ec ride.
As it sits right now it is way too easy for certain individuals to control the market by allowing this to go on outside the exchange. in doing so essentially those individuals get to decide who flies the new ships and who doesn't, which is completely ridiculous. You're correct in the fact people can ask what they want, but people should also have the ability to compare their price to others out there. Currently with the cap in place that ability is denied to them.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
the real solution is for the player base as a whole to say FU and not pay the prices. period
The 1%ers just buy and sell stuff amognst themselves. They've had years to accumulate EC between selling junk, manipulating the market, and abusing exploits that existed pre-season 7.
Going back to OP... I think a better solution would be to replace the 500m Exchange-wide cap with a per-item mark-up limit. Nearly everything already has a "MSRP" attached to it (bottom-right corner of the item's mouse-over box). How about a limit of MSRP +/-100%? Even in open-market capitalistic societies (most of the developed western world), we have consumer protection laws that prevent price-gouging and unfair trades. It makes sense, to me, that a virtual economy might want to emulate the same type of things.
Here's a funny thought, what if they did away with the 40 max items listed, and instead went with an unlimited listing amount, but set the total amount of all items being sold, to no larger than 1bill EC total sales asking price?
Please raise the cap to 1 billion ec Cryptic. I just want to see what happens when someone makes that sale and already has a few hundred million in their personal wallet.
that's not strictly true, the price of anything depends or rarity and desirability.
if a lockbox ship is highly desired by players but they are only scarce then the value could be say 600m ec but as the number of ships that can be bought dwindles and there are only a few around or even just one left the value will skyrocket if they are still just as desirable, if there are a great number of them and players are not overly bothered to own them the price could be as little as 2m-3m.
in that respect there is no true value of anything just the price players are willing to pay to buy a thing depending on the levels of scarcity and desirability.
but to reverse your example say your Anorax is usually selling for 600m then someone comes along who just wants to get shot of the thing cos he hates them and he sells it for 1m does that then make the true price 1m as according to your premise if that's what one sold for surely that's what they all should sell for.
just because there might be a few players selling for 600m does not mean another cant ask for 650m.
its up to players to make the choice if they think a price is too high for anything.
putting stuff on the exchange does not help as prices fluctuate wildly on there and you could go there one day and see a thing with a few selling for say 10k go back every day for the next month and they are selling for 1m each.
if a buyer goes on the exchange and sees that several Anorax selling for 650m he might not realise that the day before there were 10 of them all selling for 600m each.
It's obvious to me that you didn't bother to pay attention to what I said but just decided to skim, and you barely did even that much. Per the example I gave of the Annorax, you may have 2 or 3 people that that pay more than the 600m such as 650m, but if they're the only 3 and the other 99% of the time the ship sells for 600m, then the true price is 600m and the 2 or 3 that bought above 600m are just flukes in the market. People can ask any price they wish but that does not mean they will get that price. I can ask 1b ec for an old Mirror Star Cruiser but I'm not going to get that. There's also a huge difference in a ship such as the Voth Bulwark that's not been around in an event for years, and a ship such as the Vonph which just came out. The Bulwark has a legitimate reason to be highly priced, the Vonph has no legitimate reason to get near the currency cap save for greed.
Also, do you seriously hear yourself. The moment you said that putting things on the exchange does not help you lost all credibility you had. Yes prices are going to fluctuate and no one is saying they're not so I have no idea where you got that. If someone sells an Anorax for 1m per your example, then that is a fluke, nothing more.
The point behind increasing the limit is it takes the ships out of the gray area and puts them out into the open on the exchange where there is no guess work. It also makes it much much harder for certain individuals to artificially manipulate the market. As to my original example, suppose Joe Shmoe is looking to get an Anorax and he puts out a tell. Johnny 2x4 comes along and offers to sell him the ship for 650m. Joe goes to check the exchange to see how good of a price that is, he see's Johnny is 50m above the norm, he knows Johnny is trying to rip him off. If you allow it to stay in the gray area, Joe has nothing to compare to price wise and as such accepts Johnny's offer. In doing so Johnny has just taken Joe for a 50m ec ride.
As it sits right now it is way too easy for certain individuals to control the market by allowing this to go on outside the exchange. in doing so essentially those individuals get to decide who flies the new ships and who doesn't, which is completely ridiculous. You're correct in the fact people can ask what they want, but people should also have the ability to compare their price to others out there. Currently with the cap in place that ability is denied to them.
you don't even hear yourself, first you say there should be a true price then that prices will fluctuate, you cant have both.
ether there is a "true" price that is permanently fixed and is the same for every seller or prices will fluctuate where a seller can list items for sale at the price he chooses and in that case no "true" price just the price of whatever the seller list the item for and the buyer is willing to pay.
you cannot class any price as "true" until everyone sells a thing for the same price and that does not happen on the exchange and upping the cap will not alter that, a player looking to buy a ship one day would not know if the minimum price that day is (in your theory) the true price or if all that's left are way above that lower price that they were selling for previously.
of course you do realise what you are suggesting it should be is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
in the real world that would be classed as price fixing and is highly illegal.
Post edited by bobbydazlers on
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
you don't even hear yourself, first you say there should be a true price then that prices will fluctuate, you cant have both.
ether there is a "true" price that is permanently fixed and is the same for every seller or prices will fluctuate where a seller can list items for sale at the price he chooses and in that case no "true" price just the price of whatever the seller list the item for and the buyer is willing to pay.
you cannot class any price as "true" until everyone sells a thing for the same price and that does not happen on the exchange and upping the cap will not alter that, a player looking to buy a ship one day would not know if the minimum price that day is (in your theory) the true price or if all that's left are way above that lower price that they were selling for previously.
of course you do realise what you are suggesting it should be is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
in the real world that would be classed as price fixing and is highly illegal.
Now I see that you're in denial. First and foremost a true price can change just as the market itself can change. One day most folks may be into a new disruptor type, then the next they may be investing into tetryon.
If our Anorax we've been using has 99% of the people buying at 600m with 3 oddball out offers of 650m, 550m and 575m, also selling, the true price is 600m. Now if 99% of the people suddenly stop buying at 600m and they all start buying at 550m with our oddball offers now being, 600m, 500m, and 525m, then the true price has changed. The true price in this instance is what the vast majority of people are buying at. You're equating market flukes with being the true price and that's simply not the case.
Actually you can classify something as the true price very easily. If you have 500 Anorax out there that sell. 50 of them sell for 550m, 400 of them sell at 600m, 25 of them sell for 575m, and the last 25 sell for 650m, then the true price in that case is 600m. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp you're simply refusing to do so.
The point behind upping the exchange limit to 1b is that it gives people options that they don't have today. As it sits right now, there is no price competition going on which is one of the key factors in driving a market like this. If you're looking to purchase a ship, such as our hypothetical Anorax, and a guy quotes you a price of 650m, you can't verify if that's a good deal or if he's TRIBBLE you. If it's selling for 600m then he's taking you for a 50m ec ride. If they normally sell for 700m then he's cutting you a 50m ec deal. If they sell for 650m then he's right on market value. However without being able to compare prices you don't know if you're getting screwed, getting a good deal, or getting fair market value.
Actually what I'm suggesting is giving people the ability to see what the market in the first place by pulling those deals from the gray area and putting them back on the exchange. You give people the ability to see what the market is and they can determine for themselves if they wish to buy or not. By allowing people to see these prices you give people options. You let people see the condition of the market and see if it's in good shape or not. By bringing the deals into the exchange you also make it extremely hard to price gouge. By doing this if someone does try to price gouge, the buyers are able to respond by recognizing it for the price gouging attempt it is and seek a better deal elsewhere. Without the ability to know what the market is, or have an idea of supply, then you can't know what market conditions are.
In the real world what these people are doing would be considered price gouging, which is very much illegal. Also what these people are doing is attempting to monopolize the market which is very very illegal and is what has led to some major breakups such as the original AT&T. The company got too big and had too much influence over the market. The same is true with these specific sellers, they have way too much control over the market, and can essentially decide who flies the ship and who doesn't by artificially manipulating the market, which is a load of TRIBBLE. The people artificially manipulating the market as they have would be in some serious legal troubles if this was real life so that argument falls flat.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
If our Anorax we've been using has 99% of the people buying at 600m with 3 oddball out offers of 650m, 550m and 575m, also selling, the true price is 600m. Now if 99% of the people suddenly stop buying at 600m and they all start buying at 550m with our oddball offers now being, 600m, 500m, and 525m, then the true price has changed. The true price in this instance is what the vast majority of people are buying at. You're equating market flukes with being the true price and that's simply not the case.
Actually you can classify something as the true price very easily. If you have 500 Anorax out there that sell. 50 of them sell for 550m, 400 of them sell at 600m, 25 of them sell for 575m, and the last 25 sell for 650m, then the true price in that case is 600m. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp you're simply refusing to do so.
Again, that would be more of a market price than a "true price". A market price is what happens on a market, what things are bought/sold for. A true price would be the inherent worth of a thing, which (normally) does not exist. And I don't have to adhere to the market price at all if it's not compatible to my personal assertion of the utility, and I would not be wrong, since this is an individual thing. I may not get to buy or sell my stuff with my ideas, but I still would not be wrong (if I were using my actual valuation of said item and not trying to profit in any way).
In the real world what these people are doing would be considered price gouging, which is very much illegal. Also what these people are doing is attempting to monopolize the market which is very very illegal and is what has led to some major breakups such as the original AT&T. The company got too big and had too much influence over the market. The same is true with these specific sellers, they have way too much control over the market, and can essentially decide who flies the ship and who doesn't by artificially manipulating the market, which is a load of TRIBBLE. The people artificially manipulating the market as they have would be in some serious legal troubles if this was real life so that argument falls flat.
Here I would agree. The thing is, though, that the very limited supply of Annoraxes (and similar) already constitutes an oligopoly (few sellers) from the start. Which means that the market does not work anymore like in a polypoly (many sellers), even under perfect transparency, because sellers do not have to adhere to the "market price", which technically isn't existing, to be able to unload their goods.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
you don't even hear yourself, first you say there should be a true price then that prices will fluctuate, you cant have both.
ether there is a "true" price that is permanently fixed and is the same for every seller or prices will fluctuate where a seller can list items for sale at the price he chooses and in that case no "true" price just the price of whatever the seller list the item for and the buyer is willing to pay.
you cannot class any price as "true" until everyone sells a thing for the same price and that does not happen on the exchange and upping the cap will not alter that, a player looking to buy a ship one day would not know if the minimum price that day is (in your theory) the true price or if all that's left are way above that lower price that they were selling for previously.
of course you do realise what you are suggesting it should be is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
in the real world that would be classed as price fixing and is highly illegal.
Now I see that you're in denial. First and foremost a true price can change just as the market itself can change. One day most folks may be into a new disruptor type, then the next they may be investing into tetryon.
If our Anorax we've been using has 99% of the people buying at 600m with 3 oddball out offers of 650m, 550m and 575m, also selling, the true price is 600m. Now if 99% of the people suddenly stop buying at 600m and they all start buying at 550m with our oddball offers now being, 600m, 500m, and 525m, then the true price has changed. The true price in this instance is what the vast majority of people are buying at. You're equating market flukes with being the true price and that's simply not the case.
Actually you can classify something as the true price very easily. If you have 500 Anorax out there that sell. 50 of them sell for 550m, 400 of them sell at 600m, 25 of them sell for 575m, and the last 25 sell for 650m, then the true price in that case is 600m. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp you're simply refusing to do so.
The point behind upping the exchange limit to 1b is that it gives people options that they don't have today. As it sits right now, there is no price competition going on which is one of the key factors in driving a market like this. If you're looking to purchase a ship, such as our hypothetical Anorax, and a guy quotes you a price of 650m, you can't verify if that's a good deal or if he's TRIBBLE you. If it's selling for 600m then he's taking you for a 50m ec ride. If they normally sell for 700m then he's cutting you a 50m ec deal. If they sell for 650m then he's right on market value. However without being able to compare prices you don't know if you're getting screwed, getting a good deal, or getting fair market value.
Actually what I'm suggesting is giving people the ability to see what the market in the first place by pulling those deals from the gray area and putting them back on the exchange. You give people the ability to see what the market is and they can determine for themselves if they wish to buy or not. By allowing people to see these prices you give people options. You let people see the condition of the market and see if it's in good shape or not. By bringing the deals into the exchange you also make it extremely hard to price gouge. By doing this if someone does try to price gouge, the buyers are able to respond by recognizing it for the price gouging attempt it is and seek a better deal elsewhere. Without the ability to know what the market is, or have an idea of supply, then you can't know what market conditions are.
In the real world what these people are doing would be considered price gouging, which is very much illegal. Also what these people are doing is attempting to monopolize the market which is very very illegal and is what has led to some major breakups such as the original AT&T. The company got too big and had too much influence over the market. The same is true with these specific sellers, they have way too much control over the market, and can essentially decide who flies the ship and who doesn't by artificially manipulating the market, which is a load of TRIBBLE. The people artificially manipulating the market as they have would be in some serious legal troubles if this was real life so that argument falls flat.
whatever, my final word on the subject is don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
the real solution is for the player base as a whole to say FU and not pay the prices. period
The 1%ers just buy and sell stuff amognst themselves. They've had years to accumulate EC between selling junk, manipulating the market, and abusing exploits that existed pre-season 7.
Exactly. So if the exchange works for the 99% of the players, there is no need to change it for 1%. On top of the fact that alot of them been exploiters of the lowest kind. Its also a player created "problem". If ppl that open lockboxes would just put the ships they won on exchange for reasonable prices, even max 500m, and not be pmed by x or y player that will buy that ship from them and then resell it for more at suckers in the trading channel, this wouldnt be a "problem" at all. The quotas are there becouse its not an actual problem, but a whim or better said a trick, nothing more.
Hmm, also I am more then sure that this exchange cap limit "issue" is somewhat related with gold sellers. Lots of these billionaires are selling their ec and ships to gold sites. And an exchange cap over 500m would boost the gold sellers income greatly. More "fish" for them to be lured with 800-900m items from the exchange. Probably the latest spam increase of mail/friend gold sellers advertise has alot to do with this. Running short on clients or having a good run and some of the 1%ers are helping them with some "lobby" like these threads.
There's a simply was to solve this problem: remove face to face trade. This would eliminate those 3rd party sellers
Ohh, missed this one. Best idea ever.
In fact if iirc, in swtor, something like this is allready in place. You cant trade between new free acounts, or at least it was like this when I played awhile ago,.. Its indeed a good idea to stop gold sellers.
Comments
First of course you are correct that you could modify the worth of money by dividing every amount by a certain number (scratching zeros off is of course the least intrusive and most intuitive way to do so). I worded that badly. There will always be rounding issues (and only buying stuff is all divisible by 10, selling stuff can be 8 or 6, not to mention the last digits of any odd price for that vendor trash console you picked up), but that is surmountable.
Difference between MMO inflation and RL inflation: in Turkey (or Zimbabwe or possibly most famously Germany in the 1920s) inflation was all across the board. Which means: want a sweet? Costs 2 million. Lower monetary values did not really exist anymore. Here they do, because there are players who do not have dozens of millions of ec and they need a distinction at the lower end, too. And they rely a lot on the fixed prices of commodities and suchlike. The problem here is not an all across the board inflation, it is the very rich getting way richer while the bottom stays at the same level. Just like a Bill Gates lives in a different world than the most of us. Nota bene: this is not a complaint about unfair gaming economics, it is just that when some players play a game for 5 years regularily and others don't, the former will have way more money than the latter, which is to be expected, and this gap will widen more and more. This doesn't mean that a 0 cannot be sacrificed but we should watch out that the lower level economy does not become too low resolution.
If 32 bit is an issue (which may well be but I don't know) we still can double the cap and buy us some time for that.
The idea of rewards becoming account bound on pickup would severely change the way the lockbox system works. I don't say it can't be working as well, but I doubt that it would be wise for Cryptic to do so, because I think it would cut into their profits.
Keys would be less sought after, which would make the key parallel economy collapse (some might see a good thing there). Opening lockboxes would be less desirable because you couldn't get rid of the stuff you don't need and an Annorax would not necessarily be a good price anymore. You can't even trade it for a Sheshar anymore (or the other way round). Players willing to fork out 700M ec would not necessarily be willing (or able) to spend RL $, and so they would be sitting on their money, which would also become worthless. This would also move the slider between F2P and P2W towards the latter, wherever you locate STO at the moment. True, with money you can get almost every item in this game (buy keys for 1000s of dollars, sell them, buy stuff you want off the exchange), but you still can get almost everything just by playing, you may argue about the zen store items, but lockbox items you can get (as long as there is supply, which of course is scarce).
Actually there is a true price. If for example take our Anorax I've been using as an example. Suppose the ship is selling for 600m but you have 2 or 3 people that just don't care and bought for 650m. Now if the other 99% of the market buys at 600m, then the true price is 600m. The problem right now is there is nothing to compare the prices to on. You don't know if you're getting a good deal or being completely ripped off. It's pretty much, do you want it it or not. You have no way to tell if there are other sellers out there aside from catching the occasional spam.
And we've just crossed into insanity and full on greed. there's a sucker born every minute I suppose.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
First of all, I agree that the system lacks price transparency for the high end goods as it is set up, and that should be improved upon.
But then: no. Sorry, just no. Already your assumption that there are "99% willing to pay 600M" is a very strong and dubitable one. There are a lot of players who wouldn't pay this amount on a ship at all, no matter what. There are a lot of people who would pay way more if only they had the money. Some will pay more because the Annorax fits their style, some less because they prefer other ships.
In economic situations, we measure utility. And that is different for every individual. What you are willing to pay depends on how much you want the one good (Annorax) and how much you want the other good (ec). And, assuming rational behavior (which in itself is often questionable), each individual setting of a price can be correct even if they differ vastly. None of these prices is more "true" than another.
There is such a thing as a market price for a lot of goods, but that's a totally different concept. It's just the price where demand and supply are equal. More people would be willing to sell, more would be willing to buy, but not at that price. In a transparent market you wouldn't pay 650M if you knew you could get the same thing for 600M but that has nothing to do with what you consider the correct price of the good. If that weren't the case, no trades at all would happen, since everybody values the goods at the "true price", so buying or selling does not improve what he needs or wants, but would be a hassle, so people wouldn't do it.
And even if 99% of the buyers would agree that 600M would be a fair equivalent that wouldn't mean that the sellers share that feeling. The market price is set by buyers and sellers, there is no way to tell them they are right or wrong in what they think, so there is no "true price".
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
that's not strictly true, the price of anything depends or rarity and desirability.
if a lockbox ship is highly desired by players but they are only scarce then the value could be say 600m ec but as the number of ships that can be bought dwindles and there are only a few around or even just one left the value will skyrocket if they are still just as desirable, if there are a great number of them and players are not overly bothered to own them the price could be as little as 2m-3m.
in that respect there is no true value of anything just the price players are willing to pay to buy a thing depending on the levels of scarcity and desirability.
but to reverse your example say your Anorax is usually selling for 600m then someone comes along who just wants to get shot of the thing cos he hates them and he sells it for 1m does that then make the true price 1m as according to your premise if that's what one sold for surely that's what they all should sell for.
just because there might be a few players selling for 600m does not mean another cant ask for 650m.
its up to players to make the choice if they think a price is too high for anything.
putting stuff on the exchange does not help as prices fluctuate wildly on there and you could go there one day and see a thing with a few selling for say 10k go back every day for the next month and they are selling for 1m each.
if a buyer goes on the exchange and sees that several Anorax selling for 650m he might not realise that the day before there were 10 of them all selling for 600m each.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Agreed...you guys will see soon a billion prized ships. I rather buy one from a trade in chat zone rather than to see the exorbitant gazillion price on the exchange....doomed idea for those who don't have that much cash. There are other venues like:
http://www.playerauctions.com/sto-items/
if you are looking for a more "secured" dollar trade exchange.
And a fee would only give incentives to not sell via the exchange but in the chat market, making prices even more opaque. Some may also not sell at all since people tend to think they will lose money if they get 10% less - also prices across the board would rise.
Yup, I'm just enjoying the 1%ers complaining about purely virtual and, in the end, not important problems.
It's obvious to me that you didn't bother to pay attention to what I said but just decided to skim, and you barely did even that much. Per the example I gave of the Annorax, you may have 2 or 3 people that that pay more than the 600m such as 650m, but if they're the only 3 and the other 99% of the time the ship sells for 600m, then the true price is 600m and the 2 or 3 that bought above 600m are just flukes in the market. People can ask any price they wish but that does not mean they will get that price. I can ask 1b ec for an old Mirror Star Cruiser but I'm not going to get that. There's also a huge difference in a ship such as the Voth Bulwark that's not been around in an event for years, and a ship such as the Vonph which just came out. The Bulwark has a legitimate reason to be highly priced, the Vonph has no legitimate reason to get near the currency cap save for greed.
Also, do you seriously hear yourself. The moment you said that putting things on the exchange does not help you lost all credibility you had. Yes prices are going to fluctuate and no one is saying they're not so I have no idea where you got that. If someone sells an Anorax for 1m per your example, then that is a fluke, nothing more.
The point behind increasing the limit is it takes the ships out of the gray area and puts them out into the open on the exchange where there is no guess work. It also makes it much much harder for certain individuals to artificially manipulate the market. As to my original example, suppose Joe Shmoe is looking to get an Anorax and he puts out a tell. Johnny 2x4 comes along and offers to sell him the ship for 650m. Joe goes to check the exchange to see how good of a price that is, he see's Johnny is 50m above the norm, he knows Johnny is trying to rip him off. If you allow it to stay in the gray area, Joe has nothing to compare to price wise and as such accepts Johnny's offer. In doing so Johnny has just taken Joe for a 50m ec ride.
As it sits right now it is way too easy for certain individuals to control the market by allowing this to go on outside the exchange. in doing so essentially those individuals get to decide who flies the new ships and who doesn't, which is completely ridiculous. You're correct in the fact people can ask what they want, but people should also have the ability to compare their price to others out there. Currently with the cap in place that ability is denied to them.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
The 1%ers just buy and sell stuff amognst themselves. They've had years to accumulate EC between selling junk, manipulating the market, and abusing exploits that existed pre-season 7.
Example: 1 lockbox ship @ 600mill + other stuff @ 400mill = 1bill asking cap!!!
This way, if they do want to move a ship for 1bill, it would be the only thing that can be listed atm, till it sells!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
you don't even hear yourself, first you say there should be a true price then that prices will fluctuate, you cant have both.
ether there is a "true" price that is permanently fixed and is the same for every seller or prices will fluctuate where a seller can list items for sale at the price he chooses and in that case no "true" price just the price of whatever the seller list the item for and the buyer is willing to pay.
you cannot class any price as "true" until everyone sells a thing for the same price and that does not happen on the exchange and upping the cap will not alter that, a player looking to buy a ship one day would not know if the minimum price that day is (in your theory) the true price or if all that's left are way above that lower price that they were selling for previously.
of course you do realise what you are suggesting it should be is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
in the real world that would be classed as price fixing and is highly illegal.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Now I see that you're in denial. First and foremost a true price can change just as the market itself can change. One day most folks may be into a new disruptor type, then the next they may be investing into tetryon.
If our Anorax we've been using has 99% of the people buying at 600m with 3 oddball out offers of 650m, 550m and 575m, also selling, the true price is 600m. Now if 99% of the people suddenly stop buying at 600m and they all start buying at 550m with our oddball offers now being, 600m, 500m, and 525m, then the true price has changed. The true price in this instance is what the vast majority of people are buying at. You're equating market flukes with being the true price and that's simply not the case.
Actually you can classify something as the true price very easily. If you have 500 Anorax out there that sell. 50 of them sell for 550m, 400 of them sell at 600m, 25 of them sell for 575m, and the last 25 sell for 650m, then the true price in that case is 600m. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp you're simply refusing to do so.
The point behind upping the exchange limit to 1b is that it gives people options that they don't have today. As it sits right now, there is no price competition going on which is one of the key factors in driving a market like this. If you're looking to purchase a ship, such as our hypothetical Anorax, and a guy quotes you a price of 650m, you can't verify if that's a good deal or if he's TRIBBLE you. If it's selling for 600m then he's taking you for a 50m ec ride. If they normally sell for 700m then he's cutting you a 50m ec deal. If they sell for 650m then he's right on market value. However without being able to compare prices you don't know if you're getting screwed, getting a good deal, or getting fair market value.
Actually what I'm suggesting is giving people the ability to see what the market in the first place by pulling those deals from the gray area and putting them back on the exchange. You give people the ability to see what the market is and they can determine for themselves if they wish to buy or not. By allowing people to see these prices you give people options. You let people see the condition of the market and see if it's in good shape or not. By bringing the deals into the exchange you also make it extremely hard to price gouge. By doing this if someone does try to price gouge, the buyers are able to respond by recognizing it for the price gouging attempt it is and seek a better deal elsewhere. Without the ability to know what the market is, or have an idea of supply, then you can't know what market conditions are.
In the real world what these people are doing would be considered price gouging, which is very much illegal. Also what these people are doing is attempting to monopolize the market which is very very illegal and is what has led to some major breakups such as the original AT&T. The company got too big and had too much influence over the market. The same is true with these specific sellers, they have way too much control over the market, and can essentially decide who flies the ship and who doesn't by artificially manipulating the market, which is a load of TRIBBLE. The people artificially manipulating the market as they have would be in some serious legal troubles if this was real life so that argument falls flat.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Again, that would be more of a market price than a "true price". A market price is what happens on a market, what things are bought/sold for. A true price would be the inherent worth of a thing, which (normally) does not exist. And I don't have to adhere to the market price at all if it's not compatible to my personal assertion of the utility, and I would not be wrong, since this is an individual thing. I may not get to buy or sell my stuff with my ideas, but I still would not be wrong (if I were using my actual valuation of said item and not trying to profit in any way).
Here I would agree. The thing is, though, that the very limited supply of Annoraxes (and similar) already constitutes an oligopoly (few sellers) from the start. Which means that the market does not work anymore like in a polypoly (many sellers), even under perfect transparency, because sellers do not have to adhere to the "market price", which technically isn't existing, to be able to unload their goods.
whatever, my final word on the subject is don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Exactly. So if the exchange works for the 99% of the players, there is no need to change it for 1%. On top of the fact that alot of them been exploiters of the lowest kind. Its also a player created "problem". If ppl that open lockboxes would just put the ships they won on exchange for reasonable prices, even max 500m, and not be pmed by x or y player that will buy that ship from them and then resell it for more at suckers in the trading channel, this wouldnt be a "problem" at all. The quotas are there becouse its not an actual problem, but a whim or better said a trick, nothing more.
Hmm, also I am more then sure that this exchange cap limit "issue" is somewhat related with gold sellers. Lots of these billionaires are selling their ec and ships to gold sites. And an exchange cap over 500m would boost the gold sellers income greatly. More "fish" for them to be lured with 800-900m items from the exchange. Probably the latest spam increase of mail/friend gold sellers advertise has alot to do with this. Running short on clients or having a good run and some of the 1%ers are helping them with some "lobby" like these threads.
Ohh, missed this one. Best idea ever.
In fact if iirc, in swtor, something like this is allready in place. You cant trade between new free acounts, or at least it was like this when I played awhile ago,.. Its indeed a good idea to stop gold sellers.