First of all, a possibility to list items at above 500M in the exchange and thus getting some of them on the exchange would lead, as has been said, to increased price transparency for buyers AND sellers alike, both know better what other people think an item is worth. It would also add convenience - I think hanging around in the chat for hours on end trying to sell your stuff isn't that much of fun either.
But, if I take the above example, a market with as little as 5 available objects does not really obey the rules of "supply and demand". If somebody else sells his Vonphorax at 700M I am still going to list mine at 800. Yes, one buyer may get lucky and save 100, but here the demand would be high enough so I don't have to compete for the first buyer and thus do not need to lower my prices.
In a similar vein, people may start buying the cheapest Sheshbugs just to repost them at a higher price to get the extra 100M out of it.
And yes, raising the ec cap, while maybe necessary one day due to inflation, wouldn't solve the problem either for those looking to buy one cheap - money would soon find its way into the pockets of the people who already have the most, because they are "farming" for it, adjusting their play to getting it. And then they would be willing to give away 5 Yottacredits for whatever the new thing is.
As it is, when the cap is getting too low for what you can get, people will have secondary currencies (as if we didn't have enough of them already) like keys, hoping that their value will stay at least somewhat stable (but still better than throwing it in the sink I guess) and thus be able to act above the 1B limit.
As I said, market rules don't apply here. Whether you're into Smith or Keynes, their theories (and of course the development of those) rely on a few key assumptions that do not fit here. The most important one is "no monopolies" (or oligopolies, and in the same vein, no oligopsonies) - when somebody sets up too fancy a price we would have other players with the possibility to chime in. This does not happen with rare lock box items at all. They are more akin to rare stamps or paintings or similar and will always have a price that is set by a very few people and can fluctuate dramatically.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
correct me if I am wrong but the way I read your post it seems to me you are saying you are unhappy with the inflated prices of 1bn for certain items that are being sold of off the exchange and seem to be under the illusion that by increasing the exchange limit of 500m to 1bn will somehow remedy this by making players sell items on the exchange for a lower price even though they can easily sell items now for the price of 1bn on the exchange rather then off of it or both if that's what they desire.
sorry but I don't get it.
at the end of the day its up to the buyers to buy or not buy items if they feel the price is too high, if the sellers want to sell their items for 1bn even though nobody will ever pay that price they are free to do so but while buyers keep buying for that price sellers will keep selling for it and things will never change no matter where the items are sold.
I bought one in the first day for 700m. Planning to get one more as i don't open boxes ( don't like gambling). I am not unhappy of high princes as long as they are justified but scams i don't like.
Mate i am not under any illusion i know, its a fact. There is normal price for ships depending whats the medium nr of trys to get that ship and the cost involved. People add a profit from reasonable to high and post the ship for sale. Thats normal practice.But limiting this to face to face trade will make people easy to be scammed like i seen and like one of my fleet mates payed more as he was under the impression that's the normal price. You seem unhappy with the fact that i want to let people post ships on exchange were prices are regulated/normalized faster by supply and demand and were scammers and opportunists are having a harder live. I am the one that don't get it, its not only about informed buyers but also about uninformed ones.I don't see any problem with that unless you have too much money to care or you ask 1bil for a vonph in chat so people think its the normal price.
To be clear Exchange is there for trade and to solve many of the problems i said, the only reason some ships are not on exchange now its the fact the game economy changed.
the point I am trying to make is if sellers want to sell an item for 1bn regardless of if that price is over inflated or not they will do it on the exchange if the limit is raised or off if it isn't, and if buyers are willing to pay that price they will do so on the exchange if the limit is raised or off if it isn't.
raising the limit will only have the effect of shifting these inflated prices from the chat to the exchange nothing else will change.
you might see many ships on the exchange for sale at 1bn and then 1 day you might get lucky and see it for 700m and buy it but that wont bring the prices down, that is just a 1 off like the one you got before and all the others will stay at 1bn.
there are 1000s of items on the exchange even now with overinflated prices even with the 500m limit, raising the limit would only make it worse.
Not true. The exchange allows for persistant listings, so at any given time of day, the exchange increases the supply of a given item available on the market.
Say 5 guys have Vonphs, but at most only 3 of them are ever online at the same time.
This means that the maximum supply of vonphs on the market is 3 or less, at any given time, even though there is a total supply of 5.
Being able to post persistant WTS offers on the exchange allows the full supply to be available. It also allows granular price competition.
One guy posts for 800m, the next guy posts for 795. Next guy for 790, and so on. End result is a buyer pays less.
The exchange cap unequivocally hurts buyers and helps sellers.
I see your point but the opposite could be true like the player that sold you the ship for 700m, he might see that the others are selling for 1bn and list his ship for 999,999,999ec so you could have ended up paying much more.
he has still undercut the other sellers but not enough to make the prices fall dramatically and the chances of a one off bargain could end up being lost.
plus he has more chances of selling for this price as the ship will stay on sale for a week even when he is not in game.
and the problem is if an item is rare the likelihood of massive falls in prices is reduced due to the small amount for sale.
No mate the opposite is not true as a general rule, if you would know the exchange well enough you would know that this are exceptions not general facts. This don't work were is a constant supply (not to mention hot&new stuff) or were there suppliers know what they are doing (there are many that know the real value of items). Again you don't know the game economy and trade/exchange well enough.
as you say this may well go this way when there is a constant supply but with many lockbox ships as everyone and their auntie knows there is not a constant supply but a limited one.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
1. Exchange limit was 1b
2. Inventory EC limit was 1b
3. Maximum transaction limit was 1b
4. Bank can hold 1 trillion EC
5. Excess EC gained over 1b went straight to character's bank account
Best of both worlds. Exchange is able to handle all transactions so buyers know they are getting a good deal, and sellers don't have to worry about losing EC to a cap.
stop having unrealistically high price expectations for pretty pixels
Actually, while I agree with your general attitude towards the question...
I am paying for pretty pixels with some random bits on a server somewhere. How can that be a bad exchange?
And even if it comes to zen (i. e. formerly real money): I am paying for a service to have fun. Be it pretty pixels. Be it some soundwaves somewhere in a concert hall. Be it images flashing at me from a movie screen. None of this is anything tangible, yet people spend money on it, and why not? Every computer game is just pretty pixels (unless you are paying $30+ for the CD/DVD, in which case I can offer you a couple for only $15 apiece, much cheaper).
Of course as a seller I shouldn't expect people doling out a lot of money just to watch me tie my shoelaces while standing on only one leg - but if somebody pays $100 for it and enjoys it, why stop them?
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
If people are willing to pay 1b, then selling it for 700m is just giving your money away to someone else.
The market price is the market price, people selling significantly under market are just doing charity.
If you're demanding the currency cap or darn near close to it for a ship then you've ceased being free market and crossed into the realm of greed. You call it charity, I call it selling for a somewhat reasonable price (still too high) and not price gouging. Call it "you're only complaining because you're poor" or whatever it is you want to call, but in no game out there do you ever need to charge the full currency cap for one item. that's flat out ridiculous. I'm not expecting things to be free and am normally a free market person. In this case however the stupid high prices on these ships have gotten out of hand. The fact that there is a cap on the exchange simply makes it that much easier to price gouge.
there IS another option... stop having unrealistically high price expectations for pretty pixels
I refer you to the first half of this post where I say the same thing to those wanting near the currency cap for a ship.
simply increasing the ec limit on the exchange does NOT mean they're going to get that 1b price. It simply allows it to keep pace with the 1b ec cap. It also forces transparency on both sides. Buyers can see if it's worth paying the 700m for a ship or if they can get it for 650m. Sellers can actually see if it's worth selling their ship for 500m or if they could hold out for 550m.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Why shouldn't people be allowed to ask what they want? If they are too greedy, nobody will buy the stuff. If there are people buying the stuff at $700M, why should the seller settle with $600M?
You may think about the individuals involved and their defining characteristics all you want, but any influence on Cryptic's side could have very uncomfortable consequences. Either people would use secondary currencies (give me 50 keys for it) or a fixed price that high in the market could unbalance the price of lesser goods. And even if all of this did not happen, the seller is still not forced to sell. And there will not suddenly be more Sheshars or Annoraxes on the market, so you still won't be able to get one at a lower price.
And that is NOT taking into account the effect of Cryptic deciding upon prices would have on trust on anything in the market and their standing as developers.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
How about no. I would like to keep ships out of the grey trade, but I also know that if you put the limit at a billion, we will see stuff at a billion. Would be better to just set a limit as to how much a character can carry. Like 500 million. Then nothing can ever be more expensive as on the Exchange unless people want to trust a person going from one character to the next to get the full amount.
The Exchange is put in place to prevent trade scamming, the fact we have ships priced so that they can never be in the official trade is absurd.
People would just trade keys or whatever for stuff.
Prices aren't set by arbitrary limits, they are set by the facts of supply and demand.
If you want a ship to be cheaper, nerf it so fewer people want it, or raise the odds of pulling it from a box so the supply is higher.
You can only change the price by changing the facts about supply and demand.
Pretty much this. Changing the EC limit on the exchange won't do any good at all. I see players all the time selling epic [CrtD] beam arrays for 40-80 million in zone chat, which is well below the max you can sell items for in the exchange. So no matter what the exchange limit is there will always be some players who prefer not to sell their items in the exchange, even if it takes them longer spamming it in zone chat. Seriously, I think I've seen the same player trying to sell an epic Mk 14 beam array at DS9 zone chat for the last 2 or 3 days. He doesn't actually spam it every 5 seconds in the chat, but he has been trying for a while lol.
Of course there is always the option of only buy items on the exchange, and if you want isn't available then keep checking. It's not like you *have* to have a lock box or promotional ship. C-store, fleet, and even the free ship you chose at level 40 are all viable for end game content. Nobody is forcing you to be OP.
I think it would do a lot of good, as it would encourage more open price competition on the exchange. Not everyone uses the trading channel, and not everyone knows the real price of something priced over 500 million EC.
I agree the concept of supply and demand doesn't change if the EC cap is increased, so why not?
If people still want to barter items outside of the exchange all the power to them. Since it's not hurting them any, why not?
If people want to trade keys for stuff instead of EC, again it's not hurting them any, so why not?
Why shouldn't people be allowed to ask what they want? If they are too greedy, nobody will buy the stuff. If there are people buying the stuff at $700M, why should the seller settle with $600M?
You may think about the individuals involved and their defining characteristics all you want, but any influence on Cryptic's side could have very uncomfortable consequences. Either people would use secondary currencies (give me 50 keys for it) or a fixed price that high in the market could unbalance the price of lesser goods. And even if all of this did not happen, the seller is still not forced to sell. And there will not suddenly be more Sheshars or Annoraxes on the market, so you still won't be able to get one at a lower price.
And that is NOT taking into account the effect of Cryptic deciding upon prices would have on trust on anything in the market and their standing as developers.
The problem right now is they're price gouging and a certain crew of individuals are able to artificially inflate the market and as such have too much control over it. With things as they are right now there's no way for the average player to tell what the true price of a ship is. Per the example I gave above, suppose you have Joe Shmoe who wants to buy a Sheshar. Suppose the real price of the ship is 600m. Johnny 2x4 offers to sell it Joe for 650m. Because Joe has no way to know what the real price of the ship is since it's not on the exchange, he accepts Johnny's offer. Joe has now been taken for a 50m ec ride by Johnny because he was unable to compare prices to anything else.
The problem comes when people price gouge and get greedy as this is. you should never be paying near the currency cap for a single item, no matter how rare it is. When people price gouge to this insane point they TRIBBLE most everyone else in the game over. You have a few certain people that snap up the ships and sit in them to artificially drive up the price and these certain people are given far too much control over the market and something needs to be done about it. Sheshars were forced to go below 500m because of listings on the exchange. Since people were listing below the 500m, people had prices to compare to, thus people couldn't artificially push up the price of the Sheshar and rip people off. With the Anorax and now the Vonph people are purposefully doing everything they can to keep them off the exchange so they can charge an arm and a leg for them. It's not only down right dishonest but pure out greed.
Injecting more supply into the market and upping the exchange limit will do quite a bit to solve this issue. The increased supply will force prices to go lower, and upping the exchange limit will give people options to compare to.
JHAS were listed at 999m and why? because they were at the time the only unique ships not available in the C-Store, nobody knew Cryptic would make the further available.
And because they could.
People will list something at maximum price because either is unlisted and thus its "one of a kind" or became its listed at maximum price, what happens if you raise the cap to 1b is every single Annarax and similar ships will be sold at 1b ... list one at 700m and its snagged and re-upped at 1b, you just dont see that happening now because the cap prevents such high price manipulation, do it and things WILL cost over 1b that in essence doubling the cost because people do play the Exchange in such a way, they brought such ships to resell them on trade channels by making sure none were available under that price.
What you fail to understand is that people can ask 1b for an item if they want to do so. Simply because they ask that 1b however does not mean they're going to get that price. This happens all the time in real life. If for example someone has a rare baseball card, they can ask $2k for that card. However what they're actually getting can be a completely different story entirely. I can ask 1b ec for a mk ii [crtd]x3 [pen] but simply because I'm asking 1b ec does not mean I will get that 1b ec. You also forget how the exchange works. Everyone wants to be seen as the cheapest sale. All the time I see people listing ships that start out at stupid high prices. One example a person may list a Sheshar at 500m, the absolute max cap. The next person lists for 480m. then the next guy lists for 470m, then 465m, 464m, 460m, and so on. Then you have prices to compare to and so on.
Having the ability to list everything on the exchange forces honesty into the equation. If in the first part of my post where I mention the example of the Sheshar example. Suppose as I said Joe Shmoe is looking to buy a Sheshar. with allowing them to be listed on the exchange for above the 500m max limit at the 600m true hypothetical price, Joe now has prices to compare to. When Johnny 2x4 comes up and offers him a Sheshar for 650m, Joe knows that Johnny is trying to rip him off. By allowing people to keep the ships off the exchange you give too much control over the market to certain individuals who are going to price gouge. you also make it so there is no competition with pricing, which is a key thing in marketing, the ability to give the best deal and as such sell more than the other guy.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I feel the passion in this argument, and I will tell you, I dislike resellers. I got a T6 vogh ship and got tons of offers to sell at 500-6oo mil. I would have sold it for 500 mil np l, until I saw the same dude wanting to buy it state in a trade channel he had a sucker selling him a ship for a low price and he will make 200 mil off the deal. I don't plan on using this ship, and I want to sell to someone who will USE it, not flip it, or sell it on a gold website.
I think I will make a Youtube video of me deleting it, just to get see some nerd rage.
problem is with something sold out of exchange or something sold in the exchange there is no "real price" for anything, anything that is sold or not sold is at the sellers or buyers discretion, for example if a seller is selling an item for 1m ec on the exchange and a buyer buys it that is up to the two of them even if the day before the buyer could have bought the same item for 500k ec or even the seller could have sold the item to another buyer who was willing to pay 2m ec.
all you can do is form an idea in your mind of how much you think an item is worth to you and try to buy it or sell it for that price as the case may be, even if it means you never do.
and because with the exchange there is no way to contact an individual seller there is no way to make an offer for a lower price.
at least with sellers who are dealing via chat you can make an offer if you see a seller who has an item you want even if they don't necessarily except it.
the only price you can count on that day is the best price you can buy or sell your item for using either method.
this is never more true for limited items like lockbox ships.
but if you think items in sto have overinflated prices you should take a look at this.
The problem right now is they're price gouging and a certain crew of individuals are able to artificially inflate the market and as such have too much control over it. With things as they are right now there's no way for the average player to tell what the true price of a ship is.
You're assuming that there is such a thing as a "true price" of a ship. But there isn't. Unless we get many sellers and many buyers, the usual market rules which trend toward a price do not apply.
And for objects in an at least somewhat competetive environment, the prices for top items trend to explode and you will often get 90% of the quality for 10% of the price. Look, e.g., at sports: the top players in major sports earn immense amounts of money, multiple times the salaries of others who may be noticeably less qualified, but not necessarily by a lot. Why? Becaus when you have a very good team and want to improve you cannot hire two quarterbacks to play at the same time. So you're looking for the limited number of people who improve on what you have. And that is a sellers market. Same with ships - you can only fly one. So for people who just want that extra 1%, if there is nothing else they can do, this 1% will be worth a lot because their ec don't have any other use for them at that point. Which in turn brings in people using it as a status symbol without really knowing what to do.
And while I dislike players as described by you and @cidjack, I cannot really complain too much about them. If I see something severely underpriced at the exchange, I will buy and then resell it. Same story, only I am too lazy (and would have too little fun) actively looking out for these opportunities.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Yeah, during the JHAS, JHSS and Sheshar times the 500m limit put pressure on the prices. It kept those at or below 500. Nowdays not so much. Peeps got pretty comfortable to sell items thru trading channel.
The next milestone is the 1b limit. That will take little push as that involves a toon's full EC limit and some items. Probably keys will be used.
It will be interesting to see how commerce will be conducting. Vonph will be the first to break the 1b limit in a few months.
Making space bucks without exclusively doing the exchange, turns harder by the day, they can *up the cap* the day you can generate some fairly steady cash by *normal* play, without having to open up Lockboxes a lot, or manipulate the market by buying up more sanely priced stuff, and resell for a higher value in a systematic fashion, as I've seen been done. The higher the cap, the greater the room for movement up and down. The good stuff is moved into heaven, while the bad stuff stays at the rock bottom. It goes to the trash vendor more than often, because putting it up is quite simply a waste of your time and space.
The random junk you get from missions and queues are falling out as a money maker as time goes on, unless you play all the time, and can "afford" to go for quantity over quality. The balance is off here, you're forced into Ferengi shenanigans to get the EC flowing. It might be well and good for the Lockbox Key real money income schemes, but so many items now moves into the *off limits* realm, getting anything of even moderate value, turns into a quest on the rare, if not mythical, level.
In short, when you can expect to reliably get some EC by *playing the game*, then it also feels more normal to raise the cap to allow for greater movements in the price ranges all around. Raising the cap at this time will take these fantasy prices into never-never-land, and for sure do nothing to reduce the galloping inflation we have going here. It's not going slower, as time moves on!
Just look at the Lockbox Key prices. Once upon a time you could buy a few every week just by doing missions and selling junk. That is just a dream now without heavy exchange involvement all around. Weeks turned into months apparently. The random junk already is more worthless than it ever was, unless you get a very lucky drop, like a worthy CritD item, once a year or something. With more overpricing, the tendencies will be reinforced, whatever you can sell, now starts at the bottom of a veritable mountain, the peak impossibly high, which means what we have today, will turn even more extreme. Is that a good thing?
I'm not questioning the intentions here. But the results are just as preordained as they come. If you want the space bucks to be worth even less, and faster, this is the way to go. Doing nothing also seems to aid the process, granted. You still can get some older and worthless items cheaper than they once used to be, though. So not trying to paint it all black. :-)
I forgot, raise it to 1 billion, I still won't buy your overpriced SH*T.
Essentially yeah. The limit is pretty much irrelevant since you can buy outside the exchange, and it's always going to be your call whether to open your wallet or not.
I would remove all limits. Most I've ever spent on a transaction would be something like 12 mil for an upgrade token, it'll make no difference to me if a few ships that cost the higher end of hundreds of millions took up some space on the shop floor.
Yeah, during the JHAS, JHSS and Sheshar times the 500m limit put pressure on the prices. It kept those at or below 500. Nowdays not so much. Peeps got pretty comfortable to sell items thru trading channel.
The next milestone is the 1b limit. That will take little push as that involves a toon's full EC limit and some items. Probably keys will be used.
It will be interesting to see how commerce will be conducting. Vonph will be the first to break the 1b limit in a few months.
The first part is not true.
The exchange cap doesn't put downward pressure on prices, it puts upward pressure on prices, since it removes open price competition once the item exceeds the cap.
Thing tend to go from 480 to 485 to 490 to 495 to 500 to 550 to 600. There is no granular price competition above 500m, it's all in 25m or 50m increments. This hurts buyers and helps sellers. Or, as you guys like to call them, "price gougers"
Price gouging would barely be possible at all if the exchange cap was raised to 1b, since there would always be granular competition and undercutting.
Yes, it does. And because of what you wrote. There is a 50m jump when something is pushed off the exchange. In 500-550m peeps won't trouble themselves with trade channel they just put it on exchange for 500m. After that it's free reign. Have seen stuffs go for 555, 560... etc.
i can tell you one thing ... and you should trust me , Vonph dose not worth 800 mils . And the same for other „rare” ships , there are much better and cheap options. I regret buying Vonph , and Quas .
It is in fact amusing. Threads like these apear whenever the greedy ferengis wannabe want to extend their pool of suckers into the exchange realm from shady channels and zone chat. Pretty much that what WTS equals: looking for a sucker. And sadly they will find ones that "think" the "right" price is 800m for a ship. Also they want this now since, in the Vonph case, it will drop below 500m sooner or later becouse, unlike the promo ships, they can be earner indefinatly since the lockbox wont go away in a few weeks. So this is just some sheninagans in order to fool ppl and the devs, ultimatly, in order to acheve their goals i.e. more profits from more "buyers" (that wich translate pretty much into suckers).
i can tell you one thing ... and you should trust me , Vonph dose not worth 800 mils . And the same for other „rare” ships , there are much better and cheap options. I regret buying Vonph , and Quas .
Best post in here. Of course is not worth it, especially an ugly ship like the Vonph.
Also one important thing to consider. Lots of these "wise ferengi" think they are pretty spart and know stuff yet they fail to realise something critical. They preached to ppl in the past, and continue to, not to open boxes and even belite folks that did that, calling them fools and alike, instaid of just ofering maybe a compasionate "sry for your bad luck" and a grateful "thx for suporting the game". And these "advisers" cant project what if more and more ppl would do that, as in dont open boxes, and how would affect everybody. I am not saying this is the cause for those ridiculous prices, I am just giving folks something to think about if less and less ppl would open boxes and would just TRIBBLE they money.
It is in fact amusing. Threads like these apear whenever the greedy ferengis wannabe want to extend their pool of suckers into the exchange realm from shady channels and zone chat. Pretty much that what WTS equals: looking for a sucker. And sadly they will find ones that "think" the "right" price is 800m for a ship. Also they want this now since, in the Vonph case, it will drop below 500m sooner or later becouse, unlike the promo ships, they can be earner indefinatly since the lockbox wont go away in a few weeks. So this is just some sheninagans in order to fool ppl and the devs, ultimatly, in order to acheve their goals i.e. more profits from more "buyers" (that wich translate pretty much into suckers).
i can tell you one thing ... and you should trust me , Vonph dose not worth 800 mils . And the same for other „rare” ships , there are much better and cheap options. I regret buying Vonph , and Quas .
Best post in here. Of course is not worth it, especially an ugly ship like the Vonph.
Also one important thing to consider. Lots of these "wise ferengi" think they are pretty spart and know stuff yet they fail to realise something critical. They preached to ppl in the past, and continue to, not to open boxes and even belite folks that did that, calling them fools and alike, instaid of just ofering maybe a compasionate "sry for your bad luck" and a grateful "thx for suporting the game". And these "advisers" cant project what if more and more ppl would do that, as in dont open boxes, and how would affect everybody. I am not saying this is the cause for those ridiculous prices, I am just giving folks something to think about if less and less ppl would open boxes and would just TRIBBLE they money.
I made this post not as a greedy ferengi but as a man that thinks open and public trade is preferable to gray selling. My motivation for this was seeing how my friend and others paid 100+mils more for a item and at the same time i seen i was having trouble finding decent sellers. '
People have always played the exchange and they will continue to do so no mater the Cap limit. I don't care what other said in the past or what they will say in the future but i still think that the exchange should be able to cover all trades in the game no matter that. Limiting this only because of FEAR of increasing prices its wrong imo no mater how is is rationalized.
If this will actually happen its alright if not we will just have to make do without but wanting to find a item faster in a open competition market were price is regulated faster should be a thing to be wanted. Prices will increase no mater what due to other factors imo, this is why i find the price increase argument not strong enough.
I ask the participants of this tread to respect others and avoid mockery and irony a general rule. No need for this to become personal as the subject its difficult enough.
Comments
But, if I take the above example, a market with as little as 5 available objects does not really obey the rules of "supply and demand". If somebody else sells his Vonphorax at 700M I am still going to list mine at 800. Yes, one buyer may get lucky and save 100, but here the demand would be high enough so I don't have to compete for the first buyer and thus do not need to lower my prices.
In a similar vein, people may start buying the cheapest Sheshbugs just to repost them at a higher price to get the extra 100M out of it.
And yes, raising the ec cap, while maybe necessary one day due to inflation, wouldn't solve the problem either for those looking to buy one cheap - money would soon find its way into the pockets of the people who already have the most, because they are "farming" for it, adjusting their play to getting it. And then they would be willing to give away 5 Yottacredits for whatever the new thing is.
As it is, when the cap is getting too low for what you can get, people will have secondary currencies (as if we didn't have enough of them already) like keys, hoping that their value will stay at least somewhat stable (but still better than throwing it in the sink I guess) and thus be able to act above the 1B limit.
As I said, market rules don't apply here. Whether you're into Smith or Keynes, their theories (and of course the development of those) rely on a few key assumptions that do not fit here. The most important one is "no monopolies" (or oligopolies, and in the same vein, no oligopsonies) - when somebody sets up too fancy a price we would have other players with the possibility to chime in. This does not happen with rare lock box items at all. They are more akin to rare stamps or paintings or similar and will always have a price that is set by a very few people and can fluctuate dramatically.
as you say this may well go this way when there is a constant supply but with many lockbox ships as everyone and their auntie knows there is not a constant supply but a limited one.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
1. Exchange limit was 1b
2. Inventory EC limit was 1b
3. Maximum transaction limit was 1b
4. Bank can hold 1 trillion EC
5. Excess EC gained over 1b went straight to character's bank account
Best of both worlds. Exchange is able to handle all transactions so buyers know they are getting a good deal, and sellers don't have to worry about losing EC to a cap.
there IS another option... stop having unrealistically high price expectations for pretty pixels
This!
Actually, while I agree with your general attitude towards the question...
I am paying for pretty pixels with some random bits on a server somewhere. How can that be a bad exchange?
And even if it comes to zen (i. e. formerly real money): I am paying for a service to have fun. Be it pretty pixels. Be it some soundwaves somewhere in a concert hall. Be it images flashing at me from a movie screen. None of this is anything tangible, yet people spend money on it, and why not? Every computer game is just pretty pixels (unless you are paying $30+ for the CD/DVD, in which case I can offer you a couple for only $15 apiece, much cheaper).
Of course as a seller I shouldn't expect people doling out a lot of money just to watch me tie my shoelaces while standing on only one leg - but if somebody pays $100 for it and enjoys it, why stop them?
If you're demanding the currency cap or darn near close to it for a ship then you've ceased being free market and crossed into the realm of greed. You call it charity, I call it selling for a somewhat reasonable price (still too high) and not price gouging. Call it "you're only complaining because you're poor" or whatever it is you want to call, but in no game out there do you ever need to charge the full currency cap for one item. that's flat out ridiculous. I'm not expecting things to be free and am normally a free market person. In this case however the stupid high prices on these ships have gotten out of hand. The fact that there is a cap on the exchange simply makes it that much easier to price gouge.
I refer you to the first half of this post where I say the same thing to those wanting near the currency cap for a ship.
simply increasing the ec limit on the exchange does NOT mean they're going to get that 1b price. It simply allows it to keep pace with the 1b ec cap. It also forces transparency on both sides. Buyers can see if it's worth paying the 700m for a ship or if they can get it for 650m. Sellers can actually see if it's worth selling their ship for 500m or if they could hold out for 550m.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
You may think about the individuals involved and their defining characteristics all you want, but any influence on Cryptic's side could have very uncomfortable consequences. Either people would use secondary currencies (give me 50 keys for it) or a fixed price that high in the market could unbalance the price of lesser goods. And even if all of this did not happen, the seller is still not forced to sell. And there will not suddenly be more Sheshars or Annoraxes on the market, so you still won't be able to get one at a lower price.
And that is NOT taking into account the effect of Cryptic deciding upon prices would have on trust on anything in the market and their standing as developers.
Pretty much this. Changing the EC limit on the exchange won't do any good at all. I see players all the time selling epic [CrtD] beam arrays for 40-80 million in zone chat, which is well below the max you can sell items for in the exchange. So no matter what the exchange limit is there will always be some players who prefer not to sell their items in the exchange, even if it takes them longer spamming it in zone chat. Seriously, I think I've seen the same player trying to sell an epic Mk 14 beam array at DS9 zone chat for the last 2 or 3 days. He doesn't actually spam it every 5 seconds in the chat, but he has been trying for a while lol.
Of course there is always the option of only buy items on the exchange, and if you want isn't available then keep checking. It's not like you *have* to have a lock box or promotional ship. C-store, fleet, and even the free ship you chose at level 40 are all viable for end game content. Nobody is forcing you to be OP.
I agree the concept of supply and demand doesn't change if the EC cap is increased, so why not?
If people still want to barter items outside of the exchange all the power to them. Since it's not hurting them any, why not?
If people want to trade keys for stuff instead of EC, again it's not hurting them any, so why not?
Some bizarre arguments going on here.
The problem right now is they're price gouging and a certain crew of individuals are able to artificially inflate the market and as such have too much control over it. With things as they are right now there's no way for the average player to tell what the true price of a ship is. Per the example I gave above, suppose you have Joe Shmoe who wants to buy a Sheshar. Suppose the real price of the ship is 600m. Johnny 2x4 offers to sell it Joe for 650m. Because Joe has no way to know what the real price of the ship is since it's not on the exchange, he accepts Johnny's offer. Joe has now been taken for a 50m ec ride by Johnny because he was unable to compare prices to anything else.
The problem comes when people price gouge and get greedy as this is. you should never be paying near the currency cap for a single item, no matter how rare it is. When people price gouge to this insane point they TRIBBLE most everyone else in the game over. You have a few certain people that snap up the ships and sit in them to artificially drive up the price and these certain people are given far too much control over the market and something needs to be done about it. Sheshars were forced to go below 500m because of listings on the exchange. Since people were listing below the 500m, people had prices to compare to, thus people couldn't artificially push up the price of the Sheshar and rip people off. With the Anorax and now the Vonph people are purposefully doing everything they can to keep them off the exchange so they can charge an arm and a leg for them. It's not only down right dishonest but pure out greed.
Injecting more supply into the market and upping the exchange limit will do quite a bit to solve this issue. The increased supply will force prices to go lower, and upping the exchange limit will give people options to compare to.
What you fail to understand is that people can ask 1b for an item if they want to do so. Simply because they ask that 1b however does not mean they're going to get that price. This happens all the time in real life. If for example someone has a rare baseball card, they can ask $2k for that card. However what they're actually getting can be a completely different story entirely. I can ask 1b ec for a mk ii [crtd]x3 [pen] but simply because I'm asking 1b ec does not mean I will get that 1b ec. You also forget how the exchange works. Everyone wants to be seen as the cheapest sale. All the time I see people listing ships that start out at stupid high prices. One example a person may list a Sheshar at 500m, the absolute max cap. The next person lists for 480m. then the next guy lists for 470m, then 465m, 464m, 460m, and so on. Then you have prices to compare to and so on.
Having the ability to list everything on the exchange forces honesty into the equation. If in the first part of my post where I mention the example of the Sheshar example. Suppose as I said Joe Shmoe is looking to buy a Sheshar. with allowing them to be listed on the exchange for above the 500m max limit at the 600m true hypothetical price, Joe now has prices to compare to. When Johnny 2x4 comes up and offers him a Sheshar for 650m, Joe knows that Johnny is trying to rip him off. By allowing people to keep the ships off the exchange you give too much control over the market to certain individuals who are going to price gouge. you also make it so there is no competition with pricing, which is a key thing in marketing, the ability to give the best deal and as such sell more than the other guy.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I think I will make a Youtube video of me deleting it, just to get see some nerd rage.
all you can do is form an idea in your mind of how much you think an item is worth to you and try to buy it or sell it for that price as the case may be, even if it means you never do.
and because with the exchange there is no way to contact an individual seller there is no way to make an offer for a lower price.
at least with sellers who are dealing via chat you can make an offer if you see a seller who has an item you want even if they don't necessarily except it.
the only price you can count on that day is the best price you can buy or sell your item for using either method.
this is never more true for limited items like lockbox ships.
but if you think items in sto have overinflated prices you should take a look at this.
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-popular/10-of-the-most-expensive-virtual-items-in-video-games/
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
You're assuming that there is such a thing as a "true price" of a ship. But there isn't. Unless we get many sellers and many buyers, the usual market rules which trend toward a price do not apply.
And for objects in an at least somewhat competetive environment, the prices for top items trend to explode and you will often get 90% of the quality for 10% of the price. Look, e.g., at sports: the top players in major sports earn immense amounts of money, multiple times the salaries of others who may be noticeably less qualified, but not necessarily by a lot. Why? Becaus when you have a very good team and want to improve you cannot hire two quarterbacks to play at the same time. So you're looking for the limited number of people who improve on what you have. And that is a sellers market. Same with ships - you can only fly one. So for people who just want that extra 1%, if there is nothing else they can do, this 1% will be worth a lot because their ec don't have any other use for them at that point. Which in turn brings in people using it as a status symbol without really knowing what to do.
And while I dislike players as described by you and @cidjack, I cannot really complain too much about them. If I see something severely underpriced at the exchange, I will buy and then resell it. Same story, only I am too lazy (and would have too little fun) actively looking out for these opportunities.
The next milestone is the 1b limit. That will take little push as that involves a toon's full EC limit and some items. Probably keys will be used.
It will be interesting to see how commerce will be conducting. Vonph will be the first to break the 1b limit in a few months.
The random junk you get from missions and queues are falling out as a money maker as time goes on, unless you play all the time, and can "afford" to go for quantity over quality. The balance is off here, you're forced into Ferengi shenanigans to get the EC flowing. It might be well and good for the Lockbox Key real money income schemes, but so many items now moves into the *off limits* realm, getting anything of even moderate value, turns into a quest on the rare, if not mythical, level.
In short, when you can expect to reliably get some EC by *playing the game*, then it also feels more normal to raise the cap to allow for greater movements in the price ranges all around. Raising the cap at this time will take these fantasy prices into never-never-land, and for sure do nothing to reduce the galloping inflation we have going here. It's not going slower, as time moves on!
Just look at the Lockbox Key prices. Once upon a time you could buy a few every week just by doing missions and selling junk. That is just a dream now without heavy exchange involvement all around. Weeks turned into months apparently. The random junk already is more worthless than it ever was, unless you get a very lucky drop, like a worthy CritD item, once a year or something. With more overpricing, the tendencies will be reinforced, whatever you can sell, now starts at the bottom of a veritable mountain, the peak impossibly high, which means what we have today, will turn even more extreme. Is that a good thing?
I'm not questioning the intentions here. But the results are just as preordained as they come. If you want the space bucks to be worth even less, and faster, this is the way to go. Doing nothing also seems to aid the process, granted. You still can get some older and worthless items cheaper than they once used to be, though. So not trying to paint it all black. :-)
Essentially yeah. The limit is pretty much irrelevant since you can buy outside the exchange, and it's always going to be your call whether to open your wallet or not.
I would remove all limits. Most I've ever spent on a transaction would be something like 12 mil for an upgrade token, it'll make no difference to me if a few ships that cost the higher end of hundreds of millions took up some space on the shop floor.
Yes, it does. And because of what you wrote. There is a 50m jump when something is pushed off the exchange. In 500-550m peeps won't trouble themselves with trade channel they just put it on exchange for 500m. After that it's free reign. Have seen stuffs go for 555, 560... etc.
Best post in here. Of course is not worth it, especially an ugly ship like the Vonph.
Also one important thing to consider. Lots of these "wise ferengi" think they are pretty spart and know stuff yet they fail to realise something critical. They preached to ppl in the past, and continue to, not to open boxes and even belite folks that did that, calling them fools and alike, instaid of just ofering maybe a compasionate "sry for your bad luck" and a grateful "thx for suporting the game". And these "advisers" cant project what if more and more ppl would do that, as in dont open boxes, and how would affect everybody. I am not saying this is the cause for those ridiculous prices, I am just giving folks something to think about if less and less ppl would open boxes and would just TRIBBLE they money.
I made this post not as a greedy ferengi but as a man that thinks open and public trade is preferable to gray selling. My motivation for this was seeing how my friend and others paid 100+mils more for a item and at the same time i seen i was having trouble finding decent sellers. '
People have always played the exchange and they will continue to do so no mater the Cap limit. I don't care what other said in the past or what they will say in the future but i still think that the exchange should be able to cover all trades in the game no matter that. Limiting this only because of FEAR of increasing prices its wrong imo no mater how is is rationalized.
If this will actually happen its alright if not we will just have to make do without but wanting to find a item faster in a open competition market were price is regulated faster should be a thing to be wanted. Prices will increase no mater what due to other factors imo, this is why i find the price increase argument not strong enough.
I ask the participants of this tread to respect others and avoid mockery and irony a general rule. No need for this to become personal as the subject its difficult enough.
1) Common sense
2) logic
3) Reason
4) all of the above