Yes, you can be a healer. Yes, you can be crowd control.
But you can do these things while also DPSing.
Ultimately, I think the minute Cryptic started really emphasizing cooldown management, it became this:
Bind things to spacebar and win. Bind things to 3 buttons and win better.
Let me be clear: The primary secret to DPS is, first, minimizing cooldowns and, second, managing them. That and not selecting deadweight abilities.
If abilities used resource pools (and not just power levels but power levels whose behavior varies beyond going up and down and back up with ability activations) this wouldn't be the case. This is not remotely intuitive to anyone who hasn't consulted with high DPS players and/or who hasn't read a list of what every ability does and what every duty officer does and then double checked what the shared recharges on abilities are.
Since that is where we are, I think we ought to make just binding everything to spacebar easier (maybe even the default option) and shave 5 seconds off the default cooldown to all abilities. And then watch as the worst players become decent contributors when they have good gear and the best players either continue doing what they have been doing or diversify out of cooldown management towards other things.
I predict the worst players with still decent gear would probably do 10-50x the DPS they currently do and the best players would do, eh... 5%-10% more.
The problem isn't kemo itself, its the torp users stacking copies of it on their boff (Because its broken and stacking copies of it is taken into account in the final damage). Then with torp spread on large groups of enemies, it lags the TRIBBLE out of everything. Because the calculations go through the roof on impact.
It's the most annoying bug I've encountered so far in this game.
I lose 75-90% of my DPS, when flying with these cheeserz who run Torp Spread and multi copies of Kemo.
Its infuriating.
I did ground all weekend so I wouldn't have to fly with these idiots, who have no respect for other players. And don't care if they lag everyone out, so long as their DPS is as high as possible.
The problem isn't kemo itself, its the torp users stacking copies of it on their boff (Because its broken and stacking copies of it is taken into account in the final damage). Then with torp spread on large groups of enemies, it lags the TRIBBLE out of everything. Because the calculations go through the roof on impact.
It's the most annoying bug I've encountered so far in this game.
I lose 75-90% of my DPS, when flying with these cheeserz who run Torp Spread and multi copies of Kemo.
Its infuriating.
I did ground all weekend so I wouldn't have to fly with these idiots, who have no respect for other players. And don't care if they lag everyone out, so long as their DPS is as high as possible.
You seem very annoyed by this.
Yeah, I am.
It's not much fun, not being able to do anything in a match because people are using a broken game mechanic to their advantage and to the detriment of others.
I saw from some of the earlier comments about people at level 5 or 10 doing SB 24...here's my thinking on that: I parse between 36-42k in an ISA,not bad. Now I see Hive Space Elite waiting for me,do I go ahead and jump in that queue? NO and I'll tell you why: Just beacuse the queue is open to me doesn't mean I should do it. I have enough common sense to know that I'm way overmatched for that queue so I don't jump in and spoil a team's run. So think before you join a match like that and you won't have AFK issues.
@paxdawn, you managed to post a video that describes yourself and your point of view in such a clear manner that it has cured my shortsightedness.
All this talk about proof and yet you haven't provided any yourself. There are no links on your comments. You say your proof is "freely available" but saying its "freely available" isn't proving that it is available and free. Not only that you have provided no proof against his claim. Not only that you haven't checked wether his claim has "freely available" proof. Not only that, there is "freely available proof" that kemocite is not working working as intended and going a little bit beyond its capabilities.
There also "freely available proof" that you don't need more than 10k DPS to complete an advanced queue, but when you're sitting next to an 80k+ DPS boat that rips mobs up before you get a chance to land decent hits, it is very likely that said 10k DPSer won't land enough hits during his full buff cycle to properly register on someone's parser. Seeing as parsers record damage dealt and not potential damage, this is proved by the sheer necessity to attack something in order to see what damage you dealt, if someone can't land enough AOE hits before NPCs are destroyed then it stands to reason (to one's own logical mind) that their DPS won't be accurately measured.
So all this talk about DPS has the same level of effect and importance as power levels do in DBZ.
Surely to provide "freely available" proof of one's own true DPS, one should solo queues so that there are no outside influences, i.e. other player's debuffs and so on to accurately "freely"and "availably" "true" DPS values?
Yeah, I am.
It's not much fun, not being able to do anything in a match because people are using a broken game mechanic to their advantage and to the detriment of others.
The fix can't come soon enough for me.
Meh - you could easily be describing BFAW.
Well I've only experienced the crippling lag when TS/Kemo is used on groups of pooled enemies.
Like the spheres in ISA for example.
There was lag due to FaW and Beta, but supposedly that was fixed a while ago, and I've not had an issue with that for some time.
I would say the current issue is far worse.
The kemo problem isn't just about making something so overpowered and overpriced that those who can't afford it can't even try to keep up. When one person stacking the deck full of kemo freezes up everyone elses computer, that crosses the line. There are people who are concerned that even fixing, not entirely nerfing kemo might drive people away from lockboxes, banking on the next correction to lockbox features messing with their DPS. With the damage being done to other players, I owe no consideration for "lockbox ability value." It must be fixed, DPS be damned!
Yeah I use kemocite and BFAW and don't notice lag when I use it. I've actually met other kemo users in PuGs and didn't notice any lag with two of us spamming it.
Maybe the people who can't afford kemo also play on very low-end computers? Get a better graphics card that can handle all the extra particle effects. Or turn all your graphics settings to low. Very, very low. Pleb.
im not sure why so many people think kemo is such a determining factor. kemo makes up about 10k of my usual 50-55k dps. even if it were completely removed from the game i would still outdamage the vast majority of the people i pug with. i think ops issue isnt so much with kemo as it is an issue of knowing how to set up his ship properly.
Kemo isnt a determing factor why Mobs getting nuked.
Even if we hypothetical nerf Kemo to the ground, those players nuking mobs will still be nuking mobs.
It is player skill disparity. The self entitled players got what they wanted by nerfing advance to normal+ many months ago.
Now they are complaining the realities of playing at Advance or Elite STFs wherein an abysmal skilled player mixes with average player. I dont even think those complaining about mobs getting killed before they get there were teamed with DPS wizards but rather average players and an abysmal player.
There is a very small chance to actually team up with DPS wizards in a PuG due to the small population who can actually do 100k DPS in a PuG since 100k in a dps channel run is very different from a PuG run. Also teaming up with 100k DPSer isnt an assured AFK. A player must do below the STF minimum requirements just to get AFK.
The only abysmally skilled players are going to be complete noobs, or have a mental deficiency. Anyone who has been playing a few years and testing builds and tactics in PVP, at all, is not going to be in that catagory. Most noobs even are at least able to understand that a weapon or shield boosting console is good. Most folks know that your Boffs have nice abilities, and know what those abilities are suppossed to do, and that the career of a Boff predisposes your tactical options. I figure most people have got training their Boffs down just fine as well. Still the 'average' player does not exist except as an idea, and everyone has a diferent idea.
Different players have different goals, and some are more excited about PVP/PVE and pure combat builds. There is probably something like an 'avarage' PVP'r but they would not be average in any sense of the broader game. People who play the broader game are not combat illiterate nincompoops, because they do have to be good enough at ship combat to play the story PVE, and patrol PVE. These are what I would call 'average' players if I was asked. I would not call them 'abysmal'. I would say that they might seem abysmal to a dedicated PVP warrior, but since the 'average' put thier energy into more aspects of the game, I would say they are more at the heart of what keeps all of this going.
Not knowing except from recent posts, and I could be wrong, but to me some of you come across as casually dismissive of a lot of your fellow players. Sorry, not trying to be rude. I feel like you are missing the point of what some of us are trying to say about the game, and DPS. You know what it takes to generate even 50k DPS right?
My understanding of the 'average' player from my Fleet experience is that they roughly have 800-1600 dps available (4-8 weapons on a target at say 200 dps each) before boosting with abilities and consoles. Your doing about 40 times that much damage with 50k. That means you have to boost your weapons by maybe 4000%. We have some dedicated PVP'rs in our Fleet. They are the warrior elite. It may be that they can do that kind of damage, or more, but I haven't had the opportunity to spar with them for awhile. They are better at it than me, but they still find me challenging at times. I would not call myself 'elite' but merely 'skilled'. I would not call any of my people abysmal. Nobody but our Elite can probably do 50k based on sparring matches.
We are a small Fleet, so we are not all on at the same time very often. Usually we have to fly alone. As a team when we are all online at the same time, we are good together, and we win. It isn't instantaneous. We teach the low tier ships how to contribute in PVP, by training, and coaching them in slower paced missions. The dedicated PVP'rs when on board do a lot of the killing, but they get a lot of help. Nobody is 'dead weight' and as a team, we do try to make sure everyone gets in on any big kills. It is a kind of etiquette. We pass on a lot of loot so that nobody gets it all. It is a different play style than some, I suppose.
In any case, a standard of 50k may as well make you a 'wizard'. I confess that I do not know where in STO that term was first applied, or if there are any rules in who it should be applied to. All I know is that it is well above any common damage outputs I have seen, and is more like what I see when sparring with our elite. I also know that nobody is going to do 50k with a T2 ship, ever, unless Cryptic can make money off of it someday. I know that those ships are flown by all kinds of players. Call them elite, or skilled, or average, or abysmal, but whatever you call them, realize that the game design does not allow any of them to exceed a certain amount of DPS, or impulse speed, or shield strength no matter what the captain does, or what consoles they use, because it isn't a T6 ship. It's T2.
In a mission where everyone has mk 12+ gear, 7+ consoles, 7+ weapons, purple Doffs and fully trained Boffs in all positions, all on T6 ships, that is awesome fire power. However there is no proper way for a T2 ship with mk 4 gear, 4 consoles, no Doffs, and skills appropriate to a level 10 officer to measure up to that. Yet, and this has been my whole point on these kinds of discussions ... the game will put them together! THE GAME!
A player can be awesome but they use a toon to interact, and a toon is only as good as his level, and the level of his resources. When the game puts these disparate power levels into a team, then makes the team compete against itself by establishing minimum contributions, it puts the high DPS players in a position where they can't help, CAN'T HELP, but to TRIBBLE things up for the less powerful players present.
I seriously doubt they want to TRIBBLE up anyone, but the game is doing wrong by the DPS'rs as well. It makes them the bad guy! So people like tehbubbaloo, who I would normally love to have on a team, becomes a liability to me. He becomes MY dead weight! Because he is there kicking SO MUCH hinnie, I don't get to properly go about doing the mission I came to do. If he helps me to much, he kills it for me, and gets me penalized on top of it all. But tehbubbaloo is not the bad guy. The game that throws tehbubbaloo's toon into the same team mission with a level 5-10 toon is the real badguy!
Paxdawn has called low DPS'rs dead weight, and abysmal players, but lets examine that. If the DPS is so high that victory is assured, the low DPS ship wasn't needed, but if they have an ability that boosts the team even a little, they are not dead weight, but actually helpful. Not to mention that high DPS'rs that can't find a fifth player to que with aren't earning anything anyway so why not take the fifth player regardless? As for abysmal, some players are! No doubt about it! But even an abysmal player can soak a plasma torpedo, and respawn, and it is a community game, so when I play high level toons, I just play for the team, and don't care if there are nuggets in the squadron. They have a right to be here also.
All I want is for the DEVS to fix it so that low level toons can avoid the trap of being qued with level 60/T6 who have the instakill abilities. It matters to me especially as a Fleet leader bringing new people to the game. My pet peeve remains the game element that makes the AFKs happen when players were actually playing to win. It isn't a players fault who ends up on his que. I have nothing against high DPS'rs. I only wish they didn't end up in the same games with my low level toons
Live long and prosper. Qapla!
Like I ask again, where is your proof? How many times do I have to ask you to post proof or parses. Post your parses not wild claims. All the information I stated are publicly available. But like all things requires at least an effort from to you actually research it.
Remember, playing X number of years doesnt equate a player being capable especially if that player Playing X number of years is exposed with the incorrect information for the X number of years.
Now with regards to players with experience getting AFK, this was discussed many times in this forums. We can classify these "veterans" who get AFK as two things:
1) They are purposely getting AFK. They are leeches who want to remove the AFk penatly in order for their leeching ways to be unpenalized.
2) Dunning-Kruger effect - Players who think that are capable but are not really capable; This video explains it more bluntly :
You may need to watch that video again yourself. You don't seem to have the skills to be good at avoiding 'online disinhibition effect', but then you wouldn't know that I suppose.
I don't need to parse anything to have seen the damage numbers listed in my chat log. If there is a record of that battle in STO somewhere, I admit that knowing where it is, is outside my current experience, but I will track that down at some point, if it is possible. I know what I experienced in the Fleet Alert mission, and I saw the events of that mission logged into my chat window, so I don't need any more than that to know there was a massive DPS difference. I didn't break out a calculator, but on the low end the difference compared to just one player was approximately 60 to 1.
Now I don't care if you believe me, since it isn't you I am really trying to reach, despite the fact it is you I am typing at right now. If you stop reading now, I won't blame you, but I am still typing at you either way. That said, I'll continue.
The ratios of damage I observed made my ships contributions look like almost nothing by comparison. This is obviously why I was flagged. Now here is where I really feel you lack the skill to understand. You keep missing the reality of how queueing works in the real game, where most of us try to play the game without having to be a jacked up DPS machine with an elitist attitude. Let me explain.
Any player who wants to, and is eligible to, may take a queued mission. Any player. Do you follow me? Now, nobody knows what other people are bringing into the queue, so sometimes you have a level 5 ship in there. I know this may seem strange to you from your super DPS cloud, but the game is actually designed that way. To include low level characters, do you understand? Now, sometimes it also happens that high DPS players at 50+ level, or even level 60 end up in those ques as well. You see, the game is inclusive. Say it with me. I-n-c-l-u-s-i-v-e! What that means is that everyone should be able to participate, and get along. Now nobody really knows when this may happen, but sometimes very high level DPS'rs end up with players of very low level builds along side of them in a mission. This has some interesting effects on game play though. I will explain.
You see the game rates 'participation' by how much DPS you do. I know you know what DPS is. Now the thing about DPS is that some people take it to very extreme outputs, which is mostly a good thing. That is something you probably ARE good at. Where it isn't good, is when one of the queued groups is mostly made up of high DPS'rs, but has one, or maybe two very low level players. When that happens the game is at risk of becoming out of balance. As someone approaching this discussion from the point of view of a book-format game designer, I do understand game balance. That is where the game makes sure all players can actually play, without being overshadowed by either the elements of the game itself, or other players. Do you follow me?
Now when a game becomes 'out of balance' that means either the game is harder than it was supposed to be for everyone, or it is to easy for everyone, or it favors certain players over others in a way that ruins the game for some of them, possibly even most of them. When the game is to hard, or to easy, everyone complains, but when the game favors a selected group of player at the expense of the others, the favored players will not typically complain. They nay really like the situation, and may prefer it was never fixed. They may even deny there is a problem. Do you understand? That sort of thinking may inhibit the development of any solutions to the problem, and may foster animosity between players from the favored group, and the other players. That isn't good. No sir!
Now I am sure you don't need a math degree to understand that a ship that does maybe 300 dps is going to be insignificant next to other ships starting at 60k dps. If there is more than one at that difference in relative power, in a que, there will likely be penalties for the smaller ship later. Do you know what? The penalty is given in spite of the fact that the low level player had no idea who else was in the queue when they joined it. So the low level ship had no way of knowing if they were going to be so out classed in performance. All they can do is try to make the team better when the game is underway. They can be right in the middle using all the stuff they have, and it won't make enough difference. The low level character will get a penalty. Do you know why?
It isn't because they are a leech, although that does happen with characters of any level. It also isn't because the player is incompetent although any level of player may be incompetent. It is because the game allows ships with extremely different measures of power into the same queued missions. The game does this because it is 'inclusive'. Remember?
Now, some players who are elitist jackwits occassionally claim this has to be the fault of the player of the low level character. We know this because these same jackwits can be pretty obnoxious about their opinion. The truth is that any player of a low level toon can end up in this situation merely for choosing to take any queued mission where the top level toon that is allowed to participate, is much higher level than their own. This is a matter of luck, and game design. Low level characters have to take missions to advance, just like any other toons, so blaming them for doing so is at least thoughtless, and very often takes on rude tones. It happens that the Fleet Alert misson is offered at a very low level, and can be entered at a level of only '5'! Players at level 60 may also play. Can you divide 60 by 5?
Now by level 50 most players have some pretty awesome gear to assist them, so the simple ratio of 12 to 1 is misleading. The fact that there are players doing 50k, 100k, or 160k dps shows that the time a player spends upgrading a character can have huge influence. That time is a luxury that low level characters don't have. They are new characters after all. They have to level to even get any really good stuff. When they are penalized for playing, this sets them back, and wastes their time.
People who say that you just need the right build, need to make a T1 or T2 ship do 50k dps, and get back to me. Some people like to cry out for proof. I'd like some also. Where is the planet killing T2 build? If there is any such thing, it would solve the problem for everyone. I believe nobody can make that build with a level 10 character. I flat dare anyone to try and come close! Having a new low level toon or ship isn't a crime, but build choices are limited.
Now that we have had time to consider all of these easily observable in-game realities, we are left with a few questions, but first I think that we need to actually acknowledge the problem, and not hide behind denial and blaming the victim. Those are often the habits of a bully with something to lose, or the reaction of self important and lazy types who only want to fix things that harm them specifically. Unbalanced game play is a constant problem that hurts the whole community, and we all need to be concerned.
The questions ...
My main question is this. How do you fix the problem created by the expanding power variance, so that it no longer punishes unfairly by causing AFK penalties? Note, we still need to stop leeches somehow, so any answer has to address this issue. Leeches are why this other problem evolved in the first place, and are a real problem also. Also how do you get people who are not being harmed by this to see the situation in terms of how it affects other players who ARE harmed by it? Note that this needs to be done to avoid flame wars and other divisive distractions like this whole thread.
I am more than ever convinced of a divide between DPS'rs and the rest, but I would like to be proven wrong. in any case, I stand by what I have said here. I have once more covered my points. People who deny this sort of thing happens to players who are competent, and honest, can get stuffed. I have no more time for those types and their pretensions. Parses are not something I do yet. Still, my claims are easily supported by the reality that I am hardly alone, and that others are affected as I have been.
Also they are supported by the known existence as mentioned by others on this thread, of players who often go well past 50k dps. Odds are they run in small groups anyway, since many are in the same organizations and know each other. This means you can end up with a pack of them accidentally. All you have to be is a low level character with bad luck regarding who you end up in a que with. High DPS'rs will have a fair chance of getting YOU flagged. I find no compelling argument to change my stance on this thread.
The kemo problem isn't just about making something so overpowered and overpriced that those who can't afford it can't even try to keep up. When one person stacking the deck full of kemo freezes up everyone elses computer, that crosses the line. There are people who are concerned that even fixing, not entirely nerfing kemo might drive people away from lockboxes, banking on the next correction to lockbox features messing with their DPS. With the damage being done to other players, I owe no consideration for "lockbox ability value." It must be fixed, DPS be damned!
I doubt fixing kemo is going to drive people away from lockboxes. It will probably reduce the number of xindi boxes being opened, because people won't be pushing to fill all their boff abilities with kemo. It's the abusers that are causing the big problem. I avoid queues with certain people, because I know the ts/klw spam is coming. This is a very small portion of the dpsers and an even miniscule portion of the population, but the effect is felt serverwide.
im not sure why so many people think kemo is such a determining factor. kemo makes up about 10k of my usual 50-55k dps. even if it were completely removed from the game i would still outdamage the vast majority of the people i pug with. i think ops issue isnt so much with kemo as it is an issue of knowing how to set up his ship properly.
10k for you, 40k - 100k for some others it would seem!!!
Only because they are exploiting the multi-stacking bug.
Seriously.. the only reason we are seeing such inflated numbers from Kemo is because of the bug. Fix the multi-proc and multi-stack proc and you'll find that it isn't that powerful an ability at all.
In a mission where everyone has mk 12+ gear, 7+ consoles, 7+ weapons, purple Doffs and fully trained Boffs in all positions, all on T6 ships, that is awesome fire power. However there is no proper way for a T2 ship with mk 4 gear, 4 consoles, no Doffs, and skills appropriate to a level 10 officer to measure up to that. Yet, and this has been my whole point on these kinds of discussions ... the game will put them together! THE GAME!
Yeah I feel for you. A T2 ship was never intended to go toe-to-toe with a T6 (much less a fully geared T6) ship. The fact that there are queues with such a wide range of levels allowed (5-60) isn't good design IMO. It's not your fault for being T2, neither were your team overpowered (or even "wizards as you put it). It's the game's fault for allowing you and them to share the same queues with the potential for an AFK penalty.
I appreciate you saying so. I don't really care if they are 'wizards' by some arbitrary definition. I only care that they suddenly seem to be in a Queue I had joined, and it cost me, and I can see where it is costing others.
I just want the devs to know that they need a different way to screen out leeches. The inclusiveness of the game will become even more damaged otherwise.
I would have left off of this thread for good, but some of the posters like to act as if there are only idiots or thieves who get this AFK penalty, and they are flat wrong. I am sure it could happen to any one of them as well.
You may need to watch that video again yourself. You don't seem to have the skills to be good at avoiding 'online disinhibition effect', but then you wouldn't know that I suppose.
I don't need to parse anything to have seen the damage numbers listed in my chat log. If there is a record of that battle in STO somewhere, I admit that knowing where it is, is outside my current experience, but I will track that down at some point, if it is possible. I know what I experienced in the Fleet Alert mission, and I saw the events of that mission logged into my chat window, so I don't need any more than that to know there was a massive DPS difference. I didn't break out a calculator, but on the low end the difference compared to just one player was approximately 60 to 1.
Now I don't care if you believe me, since it isn't you I am really trying to reach, despite the fact it is you I am typing at right now. If you stop reading now, I won't blame you, but I am still typing at you either way. That said, I'll continue.
The ratios of damage I observed made my ships contributions look like almost nothing by comparison. This is obviously why I was flagged. Now here is where I really feel you lack the skill to understand. You keep missing the reality of how queueing works in the real game, where most of us try to play the game without having to be a jacked up DPS machine with an elitist attitude. Let me explain.
Any player who wants to, and is eligible to, may take a queued mission. Any player. Do you follow me? Now, nobody knows what other people are bringing into the queue, so sometimes you have a level 5 ship in there. I know this may seem strange to you from your super DPS cloud, but the game is actually designed that way. To include low level characters, do you understand? Now, sometimes it also happens that high DPS players at 50+ level, or even level 60 end up in those ques as well. You see, the game is inclusive. Say it with me. I-n-c-l-u-s-i-v-e! What that means is that everyone should be able to participate, and get along. Now nobody really knows when this may happen, but sometimes very high level DPS'rs end up with players of very low level builds along side of them in a mission. This has some interesting effects on game play though. I will explain.
You see the game rates 'participation' by how much DPS you do. I know you know what DPS is. Now the thing about DPS is that some people take it to very extreme outputs, which is mostly a good thing. That is something you probably ARE good at. Where it isn't good, is when one of the queued groups is mostly made up of high DPS'rs, but has one, or maybe two very low level players. When that happens the game is at risk of becoming out of balance. As someone approaching this discussion from the point of view of a book-format game designer, I do understand game balance. That is where the game makes sure all players can actually play, without being overshadowed by either the elements of the game itself, or other players. Do you follow me?
Now when a game becomes 'out of balance' that means either the game is harder than it was supposed to be for everyone, or it is to easy for everyone, or it favors certain players over others in a way that ruins the game for some of them, possibly even most of them. When the game is to hard, or to easy, everyone complains, but when the game favors a selected group of player at the expense of the others, the favored players will not typically complain. They nay really like the situation, and may prefer it was never fixed. They may even deny there is a problem. Do you understand? That sort of thinking may inhibit the development of any solutions to the problem, and may foster animosity between players from the favored group, and the other players. That isn't good. No sir!
Now I am sure you don't need a math degree to understand that a ship that does maybe 300 dps is going to be insignificant next to other ships starting at 60k dps. If there is more than one at that difference in relative power, in a que, there will likely be penalties for the smaller ship later. Do you know what? The penalty is given in spite of the fact that the low level player had no idea who else was in the queue when they joined it. So the low level ship had no way of knowing if they were going to be so out classed in performance. All they can do is try to make the team better when the game is underway. They can be right in the middle using all the stuff they have, and it won't make enough difference. The low level character will get a penalty. Do you know why?
It isn't because they are a leech, although that does happen with characters of any level. It also isn't because the player is incompetent although any level of player may be incompetent. It is because the game allows ships with extremely different measures of power into the same queued missions. The game does this because it is 'inclusive'. Remember?
Now, some players who are elitist jackwits occassionally claim this has to be the fault of the player of the low level character. We know this because these same jackwits can be pretty obnoxious about their opinion. The truth is that any player of a low level toon can end up in this situation merely for choosing to take any queued mission where the top level toon that is allowed to participate, is much higher level than their own. This is a matter of luck, and game design. Low level characters have to take missions to advance, just like any other toons, so blaming them for doing so is at least thoughtless, and very often takes on rude tones. It happens that the Fleet Alert misson is offered at a very low level, and can be entered at a level of only '5'! Players at level 60 may also play. Can you divide 60 by 5?
Now by level 50 most players have some pretty awesome gear to assist them, so the simple ratio of 12 to 1 is misleading. The fact that there are players doing 50k, 100k, or 160k dps shows that the time a player spends upgrading a character can have huge influence. That time is a luxury that low level characters don't have. They are new characters after all. They have to level to even get any really good stuff. When they are penalized for playing, this sets them back, and wastes their time.
People who say that you just need the right build, need to make a T1 or T2 ship do 50k dps, and get back to me. Some people like to cry out for proof. I'd like some also. Where is the planet killing T2 build? If there is any such thing, it would solve the problem for everyone. I believe nobody can make that build with a level 10 character. I flat dare anyone to try and come close! Having a new low level toon or ship isn't a crime, but build choices are limited.
Now that we have had time to consider all of these easily observable in-game realities, we are left with a few questions, but first I think that we need to actually acknowledge the problem, and not hide behind denial and blaming the victim. Those are often the habits of a bully with something to lose, or the reaction of self important and lazy types who only want to fix things that harm them specifically. Unbalanced game play is a constant problem that hurts the whole community, and we all need to be concerned.
The questions ...
My main question is this. How do you fix the problem created by the expanding power variance, so that it no longer punishes unfairly by causing AFK penalties? Note, we still need to stop leeches somehow, so any answer has to address this issue. Leeches are why this other problem evolved in the first place, and are a real problem also. Also how do you get people who are not being harmed by this to see the situation in terms of how it affects other players who ARE harmed by it? Note that this needs to be done to avoid flame wars and other divisive distractions like this whole thread.
I am more than ever convinced of a divide between DPS'rs and the rest, but I would like to be proven wrong. in any case, I stand by what I have said here. I have once more covered my points. People who deny this sort of thing happens to players who are competent, and honest, can get stuffed. I have no more time for those types and their pretensions. Parses are not something I do yet. Still, my claims are easily supported by the reality that I am hardly alone, and that others are affected as I have been.
Also they are supported by the known existence as mentioned by others on this thread, of players who often go well past 50k dps. Odds are they run in small groups anyway, since many are in the same organizations and know each other. This means you can end up with a pack of them accidentally. All you have to be is a low level character with bad luck regarding who you end up in a que with. High DPS'rs will have a fair chance of getting YOU flagged. I find no compelling argument to change my stance on this thread.
Qapla
You can't join many Queues until you reach a certain level. When you first start, you can't do queues that reward rep marks like the Borg queues or the Iconian queues for instance. You have to level up first. So there's no excuse to be taking a miranda that does 300 dps into any of the queues that reward rep marks. In fact I wish there was a ship tier check to prevent people from taking anything less than a T5 into these. It's easy to get a T5 MU ship from the exchange to do this.
That said, a new player queuing up for Starbase 24 or Fleet Alert is more likely than not doing it for the XP rewarded from lots of ships blowing up, and not anything else. Both of these queues are great for low level players as a way to power level - but if you are in a miranda doing 300 DPS you will be woefully outclassed by even a casual player doing 3k DPS let alone someone doing 100k.
The thing is, you don't stay at level 5 flying a miranda for very long. So I don't see a big problem about this like you seem to. Nor do I see any kind of a solution in your post.
My solution? Ship tier checks. Make it so that most queues require you to be in at least a T5 ship. Each ship already has a tier assigned to it - so this is something that (hopefully) wouldn't be too difficult to do. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean they would know how to fit or fly their ship, but it's a start. I also don't think this is too great of any expectation for most players considering how easy it is to get an MU ship to meet the requirement. It would include the free to play players and also create a situation that allows all the players in the group to exceed the minimum amount of damage needed to earn a reward.
Or if you wanted to get real hardcore about it, give all gear in the game a gear score and having a gear check. Like you need a gear score of 1,000 to do Fleet Alert or a gear score of 10,000 to do CCA. This would take more work to do and IMO would create a difficult hurdle for a lot of casual players, and probably drive people away. So it wouldn't be my preferred solution.
I can't wait for the new queue to hit Holodeck. Like BOTSE DPS is not the way to go about winning. It requires teamwork and a willingness to read chat and do what others are asking of you/follow orders to achieve the goal. Like any queue that requires teamwork and listening to the team on the chatbox it's going to be empty. You don't see 100k DPSers pugging those queues. Perhaps DPS isn't the answer to everything.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
I can't wait for the new queue to hit Holodeck. Like BOTSE DPS is not the way to go about winning. It requires teamwork and a willingness to read chat and do what others are asking of you/follow orders to achieve the goal. Like any queue that requires teamwork and listening to the team on the chatbox it's going to be empty. You don't see 100k DPSers pugging those queues. Perhaps DPS isn't the answer to everything.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
You seriously overrate the difficulty of PVE in this game. You seriously underrate how players will adapt to the new content, understand the flow, and apply all the strengths of modern builds to trivialize it.
Edit: Every queue that has ever been implemented has always been figured out. Once the "flow" of the instance has been figured out, it's a simple matter of applying your ship's power to overcome the content.
"Kemocite?!? First it was the Plasma Doping... then it was the BFAW... now it's the Kemocite! How's a Ferengi supposed to make an honest living in a playing a game like this?"
"This is exactly what the not so good players want: PvP against PvE! DPSers against PvPers! The more we show them what can be achieved with a build, the more nerfs we'll get, and the less chance we have against farming our dilithium, marks and R&D materials!"
Well I do notice an occasional kemo cite lag but that's usually when it's paired with all.my science skills and the kemo and the plasma explosions and the warp plasma and the torp spreads it can get to the point where it's just soo many effects piling that the game or your computer can't cope but that lag usually corrects instantly
You may need to watch that video again yourself. You don't seem to have the skills to be good at avoiding 'online disinhibition effect', but then you wouldn't know that I suppose.
I don't need to parse anything to have seen the damage numbers listed in my chat log. If there is a record of that battle in STO somewhere, I admit that knowing where it is, is outside my current experience, but I will track that down at some point, if it is possible. I know what I experienced in the Fleet Alert mission, and I saw the events of that mission logged into my chat window, so I don't need any more than that to know there was a massive DPS difference. I didn't break out a calculator, but on the low end the difference compared to just one player was approximately 60 to 1.
Now I don't care if you believe me, since it isn't you I am really trying to reach, despite the fact it is you I am typing at right now. If you stop reading now, I won't blame you, but I am still typing at you either way. That said, I'll continue.
The ratios of damage I observed made my ships contributions look like almost nothing by comparison. This is obviously why I was flagged. Now here is where I really feel you lack the skill to understand. You keep missing the reality of how queueing works in the real game, where most of us try to play the game without having to be a jacked up DPS machine with an elitist attitude. Let me explain.
Any player who wants to, and is eligible to, may take a queued mission. Any player. Do you follow me? Now, nobody knows what other people are bringing into the queue, so sometimes you have a level 5 ship in there. I know this may seem strange to you from your super DPS cloud, but the game is actually designed that way. To include low level characters, do you understand? Now, sometimes it also happens that high DPS players at 50+ level, or even level 60 end up in those ques as well. You see, the game is inclusive. Say it with me. I-n-c-l-u-s-i-v-e! What that means is that everyone should be able to participate, and get along. Now nobody really knows when this may happen, but sometimes very high level DPS'rs end up with players of very low level builds along side of them in a mission. This has some interesting effects on game play though. I will explain.
You see the game rates 'participation' by how much DPS you do. I know you know what DPS is. Now the thing about DPS is that some people take it to very extreme outputs, which is mostly a good thing. That is something you probably ARE good at. Where it isn't good, is when one of the queued groups is mostly made up of high DPS'rs, but has one, or maybe two very low level players. When that happens the game is at risk of becoming out of balance. As someone approaching this discussion from the point of view of a book-format game designer, I do understand game balance. That is where the game makes sure all players can actually play, without being overshadowed by either the elements of the game itself, or other players. Do you follow me?
Now when a game becomes 'out of balance' that means either the game is harder than it was supposed to be for everyone, or it is to easy for everyone, or it favors certain players over others in a way that ruins the game for some of them, possibly even most of them. When the game is to hard, or to easy, everyone complains, but when the game favors a selected group of player at the expense of the others, the favored players will not typically complain. They nay really like the situation, and may prefer it was never fixed. They may even deny there is a problem. Do you understand? That sort of thinking may inhibit the development of any solutions to the problem, and may foster animosity between players from the favored group, and the other players. That isn't good. No sir!
Now I am sure you don't need a math degree to understand that a ship that does maybe 300 dps is going to be insignificant next to other ships starting at 60k dps. If there is more than one at that difference in relative power, in a que, there will likely be penalties for the smaller ship later. Do you know what? The penalty is given in spite of the fact that the low level player had no idea who else was in the queue when they joined it. So the low level ship had no way of knowing if they were going to be so out classed in performance. All they can do is try to make the team better when the game is underway. They can be right in the middle using all the stuff they have, and it won't make enough difference. The low level character will get a penalty. Do you know why?
It isn't because they are a leech, although that does happen with characters of any level. It also isn't because the player is incompetent although any level of player may be incompetent. It is because the game allows ships with extremely different measures of power into the same queued missions. The game does this because it is 'inclusive'. Remember?
Now, some players who are elitist jackwits occassionally claim this has to be the fault of the player of the low level character. We know this because these same jackwits can be pretty obnoxious about their opinion. The truth is that any player of a low level toon can end up in this situation merely for choosing to take any queued mission where the top level toon that is allowed to participate, is much higher level than their own. This is a matter of luck, and game design. Low level characters have to take missions to advance, just like any other toons, so blaming them for doing so is at least thoughtless, and very often takes on rude tones. It happens that the Fleet Alert misson is offered at a very low level, and can be entered at a level of only '5'! Players at level 60 may also play. Can you divide 60 by 5?
Now by level 50 most players have some pretty awesome gear to assist them, so the simple ratio of 12 to 1 is misleading. The fact that there are players doing 50k, 100k, or 160k dps shows that the time a player spends upgrading a character can have huge influence. That time is a luxury that low level characters don't have. They are new characters after all. They have to level to even get any really good stuff. When they are penalized for playing, this sets them back, and wastes their time.
People who say that you just need the right build, need to make a T1 or T2 ship do 50k dps, and get back to me. Some people like to cry out for proof. I'd like some also. Where is the planet killing T2 build? If there is any such thing, it would solve the problem for everyone. I believe nobody can make that build with a level 10 character. I flat dare anyone to try and come close! Having a new low level toon or ship isn't a crime, but build choices are limited.
Now that we have had time to consider all of these easily observable in-game realities, we are left with a few questions, but first I think that we need to actually acknowledge the problem, and not hide behind denial and blaming the victim. Those are often the habits of a bully with something to lose, or the reaction of self important and lazy types who only want to fix things that harm them specifically. Unbalanced game play is a constant problem that hurts the whole community, and we all need to be concerned.
The questions ...
My main question is this. How do you fix the problem created by the expanding power variance, so that it no longer punishes unfairly by causing AFK penalties? Note, we still need to stop leeches somehow, so any answer has to address this issue. Leeches are why this other problem evolved in the first place, and are a real problem also. Also how do you get people who are not being harmed by this to see the situation in terms of how it affects other players who ARE harmed by it? Note that this needs to be done to avoid flame wars and other divisive distractions like this whole thread.
I am more than ever convinced of a divide between DPS'rs and the rest, but I would like to be proven wrong. in any case, I stand by what I have said here. I have once more covered my points. People who deny this sort of thing happens to players who are competent, and honest, can get stuffed. I have no more time for those types and their pretensions. Parses are not something I do yet. Still, my claims are easily supported by the reality that I am hardly alone, and that others are affected as I have been.
Also they are supported by the known existence as mentioned by others on this thread, of players who often go well past 50k dps. Odds are they run in small groups anyway, since many are in the same organizations and know each other. This means you can end up with a pack of them accidentally. All you have to be is a low level character with bad luck regarding who you end up in a que with. High DPS'rs will have a fair chance of getting YOU flagged. I find no compelling argument to change my stance on this thread.
Qapla
You can't join many Queues until you reach a certain level. When you first start, you can't do queues that reward rep marks like the Borg queues or the Iconian queues for instance. You have to level up first. So there's no excuse to be taking a miranda that does 300 dps into any of the queues that reward rep marks. In fact I wish there was a ship tier check to prevent people from taking anything less than a T5 into these. It's easy to get a T5 MU ship from the exchange to do this.
That said, a new player queuing up for Starbase 24 or Fleet Alert is more likely than not doing it for the XP rewarded from lots of ships blowing up, and not anything else. Both of these queues are great for low level players as a way to power level - but if you are in a miranda doing 300 DPS you will be woefully outclassed by even a casual player doing 3k DPS let alone someone doing 100k.
The thing is, you don't stay at level 5 flying a miranda for very long. So I don't see a big problem about this like you seem to. Nor do I see any kind of a solution in your post.
My solution? Ship tier checks. Make it so that most queues require you to be in at least a T5 ship. Each ship already has a tier assigned to it - so this is something that (hopefully) wouldn't be too difficult to do. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean they would know how to fit or fly their ship, but it's a start. I also don't think this is too great of any expectation for most players considering how easy it is to get an MU ship to meet the requirement. It would include the free to play players and also create a situation that allows all the players in the group to exceed the minimum amount of damage needed to earn a reward.
Or if you wanted to get real hardcore about it, give all gear in the game a gear score and having a gear check. Like you need a gear score of 1,000 to do Fleet Alert or a gear score of 10,000 to do CCA. This would take more work to do and IMO would create a difficult hurdle for a lot of casual players, and probably drive people away. So it wouldn't be my preferred solution.
I really like your suggestion about ship checks. I really, really do! For myself, I never knew this sort of thing could happen. It wasn't even on my radar. I usually am more concerned with getting Fleet Marks, than Rep Marks because I am all about my team, and Fleet Marks help everyone. The reason I care personally about the low vs high T-ships boils down mostly to trying to help new recruits to my Fleet to get to the higher levels without making them turn away from the game out of frustration. Secondarily, I was creating a whole batch of new low level toons to run with my noobs so I wouldn't steal their thunder to much, and they could learn to be good without having me rescue them in a T5+.
Finding out from the point of view of a potential noob, that I could be robbed of my efforts by a super DPS machine made me, well, furious! Unfair punishment is wrong period. Calling people who run into this problem liars, cheats, or whatever, whether a gamebot, or a person making the accusation, is not acceptable imho. My noobs are always welcome in any Team we run as a Fleet, but we also make sure they get in on the kills. We take care of our people. I want to make sure the noobs have fun along with our DPS machines. We have a few of those also, but they don't get so proud of themselves that they forget when they were noobs, and they make great teachers for our people. I taught them how to play decently, and they in turn chose to excel at combat, and complete the circle by bringing it home. I am very proud of all of them. My high DPS Fleet players are honorable, and if they carry a noob, they make sure the noob is there for the reward also.
Now basically I expect this game to TRIBBLE up a fair bit. A ship check for high or low level missions would help a lot, and this is the sort of response I have been looking for. An idea that helps prevent leeches, but makes the gap between participants more manageable. You are probably my favorite person on this thread right now, because you see exactly what I am talking about, and offered some ideas. If I can do something for you, whatever it might be, let me know
I can't wait for the new queue to hit Holodeck. Like BOTSE DPS is not the way to go about winning. It requires teamwork and a willingness to read chat and do what others are asking of you/follow orders to achieve the goal. Like any queue that requires teamwork and listening to the team on the chatbox it's going to be empty. You don't see 100k DPSers pugging those queues. Perhaps DPS isn't the answer to everything.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
Where do I find more about the new queue specifically. It sounds right for what I want my Fleet to be involved in. Thanks in advance
I can't wait for the new queue to hit Holodeck. Like BOTSE DPS is not the way to go about winning. It requires teamwork and a willingness to read chat and do what others are asking of you/follow orders to achieve the goal. Like any queue that requires teamwork and listening to the team on the chatbox it's going to be empty. You don't see 100k DPSers pugging those queues. Perhaps DPS isn't the answer to everything.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
You seriously overrate the difficulty of PVE in this game. You seriously underrate how players will adapt to the new content, understand the flow, and apply all the strengths of modern builds to trivialize it.
Edit: Every queue that has ever been implemented has always been figured out. Once the "flow" of the instance has been figured out, it's a simple matter of applying your ship's power to overcome the content.
My friend, I'm not saying its dificult, i believe the opposite. PvE in this game is remarkably easy with some teamwork and yet you only see a handfull of queues popping with pugs. Its not because the others are difficult, it's because they cant be cured with moar DPS. the majority of players wnat to look out for themselves and try to carry the mission by themselves, then they blame everyone else for not working as a team.
The DPS crownd has been so good at advertising itself that people arent willing to play the sci captain throwing the debuffs around, or the eng tank keeping the pressure off escorts and sci ships. Its all me me me me me with all the DPS.
As a side point, how many players have adapted to the new queues without relying on broken equipment and buffs? Because thats not adapting, thats lazy exploiting.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
Interesting, not too long ago the same thing was said of the PvP crowd. You're right i have met a few DPSers that werent like that but they are a rare sight.
Answer me this, how many DPSers have you seen fighting for item/power/trait balance and queues that involve the inclusion of the differnet career choices and something other than DPS? Because from the looks of things they seem pretty happy to let the whole "current broken meta" system to continue in their ever growing lust for moar deeeeeeeps.
My solution? Ship tier checks. Make it so that most queues require you to be in at least a T5 ship. Each ship already has a tier assigned to it - so this is something that (hopefully) wouldn't be too difficult to do. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean they would know how to fit or fly their ship, but it's a start. I also don't think this is too great of any expectation for most players considering how easy it is to get an MU ship to meet the requirement. It would include the free to play players and also create a situation that allows all the players in the group to exceed the minimum amount of damage needed to earn a reward.
Or if you wanted to get real hardcore about it, give all gear in the game a gear score and having a gear check. Like you need a gear score of 1,000 to do Fleet Alert or a gear score of 10,000 to do CCA. This would take more work to do and IMO would create a difficult hurdle for a lot of casual players, and probably drive people away. So it wouldn't be my preferred solution.
This is a massively flawed solution! Mainly because you're attributing skill and ability to the possession of certain ships and gear. If I want to pug in a T1 Connie, I should be allowed to. If I want to run only mines, I should be allowed to. Am I a dead weight? Not exactly. Are the missions failing? No.
The issue is not what people use or have. The issue is down to how well they are able to use what they have. I pug loads, and in all different types of ships, with all different types of builds. Are the all 'optimal'? Usually not, but they are viable, and more importantly, they're fun. And at the end of the day, this is a game, and should be fun. So if I want to use all Andorian DHC's and try and get max one hits off Wing Cannon Overload, or fly my D'Kyr because no one else does, I will.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
Actually risingwolfshadow seems to be saying that they personally have not seen many DPSers who come across as ethically appealing. A personal observation can't have any logical failings when all it does is relate a perceived personal experience. It is no more illogical than a photograph, but like a photograph, it may be a little out of focus. I know very ethical, kind, and honorable DPS/PVPers. I have some in my Fleet. However I have run into the other types as well.
I think there are places on the maps, and places in the game, where you are more likely to run into vainglorious jerkwad asshats who are so full of their own awesomeness that you can't even talk to them. Just like there are places where you can scope out the real helpful types in the chat windows. In practice I just don't talk to the preening self appointed royals, and avoid them. I always keep an eye out for people who are having questions, and also who else besides myself will try to help them, and those people I try to keep in touch with, or even recruit.
I do think DPSers fall into the very helpful, or very selfish extremes though. I usually get a pretty strong impression off of them either way, and I'm not sure what that says about the DPS oriented portion of the community. I don't want to use to broad a brush either, but it does seem you either have shining knights, or ogres.
If there are other ways we should be seeing the DPS crowd, maybe it is partly the DPS crowds job to help us see them in that different way. Most of the rumors about DPSers are usually one sided. If I didn't have DPSers in my Fleet, I would avoid them based on the rumors, but I fortunately know it is not that cut and dried. They are also just people. Very competitive people, but still, just folks.
Back to the photograph example; If the picture we have of DPS/PVPers is negative more then half of the time (I'm willing to say this could be unfair) than why is it? I don't like jealousy as the answer because it is to cheap, and besides, I can't see much to be jealous about except doing lots of damage, and that isn't really enough to make the argument for me. Arrogance is also a cheap answer, but paints the whole DPS crowd in a manner I think is unfair. I'd like to think the answer was more subtle, and potentially reducible.
I can't wait for the new queue to hit Holodeck. Like BOTSE DPS is not the way to go about winning. It requires teamwork and a willingness to read chat and do what others are asking of you/follow orders to achieve the goal. Like any queue that requires teamwork and listening to the team on the chatbox it's going to be empty. You don't see 100k DPSers pugging those queues. Perhaps DPS isn't the answer to everything.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
Actually BOTSE is one of my favourite queues and I often pug it because it's fast ( even if it fails, it's still faster than BHE which right now has a high chance of failure at the end ), because only a couple of my chars are uber-ground dpsers and because I am noticing that, right now, FINALLY, pugs are getting it and doing the optionals, which is something that DPSers already used to do long before, apart from the ordinary pew pew ... so I am glad that now it's feasible also with pugs.
Instead, I haven't met yet that kind of DPSer which you are describing ... mmm ... I can think of a guy who could do this but I have almost never talked with him so it's just speculation.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
Interesting, not too long ago the same thing was said of the PvP crowd. You're right i have met a few DPSers that werent like that but they are a rare sight.
Answer me this, how many DPSers have you seen fighting for item/power/trait balance and queues that involve the inclusion of the differnet career choices and something other than DPS? Because from the looks of things they seem pretty happy to let the whole "current broken meta" system to continue in their ever growing lust for moar deeeeeeeps.
For the most part, people are going to take the path of least resistance and take the rom/tac route. Look at kemocite-laced weapons, the bugs were brought out and reported by the dps community. Odenknight is the biggest proponent of torpedo balance. Let me ask you this, if engineers and scientists were dps machines like tac, would there really be any balance? To me, it seems like when people think dps, they just jump quickly to ISA. There are queues where other careers are of great benefit to have, ie. Aggronauts and HSE. I agree with you on looking forward to the new queues, for the challenge. Just because someone has high dps, doesn't mean they bought all the best stuff and got on the top of the charts. You have to actually be able to fly your ship efficiently to push out those kind of numbers. These guys are good with tactics, but reward vs. work comes into play. If they actually added good enough rewards for things like Breach Elite or Storming the Spire Elite, there are many DPSers that would be all over that. There are some of us who relish the challenge, even without the huge rewards.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
Actually risingwolfshadow seems to be saying that they personally have not seen many DPSers who come across as ethically appealing. A personal observation can't have any logical failings when all it does is relate a perceived personal experience. It is no more illogical than a photograph, but like a photograph, it may be a little out of focus. I know very ethical, kind, and honorable DPS/PVPers. I have some in my Fleet. However I have run into the other types as well.
I think there are places on the maps, and places in the game, where you are more likely to run into vainglorious jerkwad asshats who are so full of their own awesomeness that you can't even talk to them. Just like there are places where you can scope out the real helpful types in the chat windows. In practice I just don't talk to the preening self appointed royals, and avoid them. I always keep an eye out for people who are having questions, and also who else besides myself will try to help them, and those people I try to keep in touch with, or even recruit.
I do think DPSers fall into the very helpful, or very selfish extremes though. I usually get a pretty strong impression off of them either way, and I'm not sure what that says about the DPS oriented portion of the community. I don't want to use to broad a brush either, but it does seem you either have shining knights, or ogres.
If there are other ways we should be seeing the DPS crowd, maybe it is partly the DPS crowds job to help us see them in that different way. Most of the rumors about DPSers are usually one sided. If I didn't have DPSers in my Fleet, I would avoid them based on the rumors, but I fortunately know it is not that cut and dried. They are also just people. Very competitive people, but still, just folks.
Back to the photograph example; If the picture we have of DPS/PVPers is negative more then half of the time (I'm willing to say this could be unfair) than why is it? I don't like jealousy as the answer because it is to cheap, and besides, I can't see much to be jealous about except doing lots of damage, and that isn't really enough to make the argument for me. Arrogance is also a cheap answer, but paints the whole DPS crowd in a manner I think is unfair. I'd like to think the answer was more subtle, and potentially reducible.
Maybe someone here has an idea?
Anyway, Qapla!
By saying he hasn't met a DPSer that doesn't do what he says above, that is a fallacy of composition. Just because a few are that way, doesn't mean the whole group is. People that are jerks to others tend to be remembered or noticed more than those who are not. Who knows, maybe competition draws people with those extreme personalities, both ways.
By saying he hasn't met a DPSer that doesn't do what he says above, that is a fallacy of composition. Just because a few are that way, doesn't mean the whole group is.
And that wasn't what he said. He only said "I experienced the following" not "The following is what you'll always get".
Yes, it is implied. And yes, the memories work as you describe, so he could be wrong (not lying but misremembering) this - which is likely since you have no chance of finding out the "DPS attitude" of somebody who does not talk.
But since this forum seems to become a discussion ground for types of fallacies (which more often than not falls victim to the "fallacy fallacy" - just because somebody commited a logical fallacy does not mean that he is wrong in his conclusions, but I digress), the quoted statement did not include any fallacies, and I am fairly certain that is all Admiral Kogar wanted to point out.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Comments
Yes, you can be a healer. Yes, you can be crowd control.
But you can do these things while also DPSing.
Ultimately, I think the minute Cryptic started really emphasizing cooldown management, it became this:
Bind things to spacebar and win. Bind things to 3 buttons and win better.
Let me be clear: The primary secret to DPS is, first, minimizing cooldowns and, second, managing them. That and not selecting deadweight abilities.
If abilities used resource pools (and not just power levels but power levels whose behavior varies beyond going up and down and back up with ability activations) this wouldn't be the case. This is not remotely intuitive to anyone who hasn't consulted with high DPS players and/or who hasn't read a list of what every ability does and what every duty officer does and then double checked what the shared recharges on abilities are.
Since that is where we are, I think we ought to make just binding everything to spacebar easier (maybe even the default option) and shave 5 seconds off the default cooldown to all abilities. And then watch as the worst players become decent contributors when they have good gear and the best players either continue doing what they have been doing or diversify out of cooldown management towards other things.
I predict the worst players with still decent gear would probably do 10-50x the DPS they currently do and the best players would do, eh... 5%-10% more.
It's the most annoying bug I've encountered so far in this game.
I lose 75-90% of my DPS, when flying with these cheeserz who run Torp Spread and multi copies of Kemo.
Its infuriating.
I did ground all weekend so I wouldn't have to fly with these idiots, who have no respect for other players. And don't care if they lag everyone out, so long as their DPS is as high as possible.
Yeah, I am.
It's not much fun, not being able to do anything in a match because people are using a broken game mechanic to their advantage and to the detriment of others.
The fix can't come soon enough for me.
All this talk about proof and yet you haven't provided any yourself. There are no links on your comments. You say your proof is "freely available" but saying its "freely available" isn't proving that it is available and free.
Not only that you have provided no proof against his claim.
Not only that you haven't checked wether his claim has "freely available" proof.
Not only that, there is "freely available proof" that kemocite is not working working as intended and going a little bit beyond its capabilities.
There also "freely available proof" that you don't need more than 10k DPS to complete an advanced queue, but when you're sitting next to an 80k+ DPS boat that rips mobs up before you get a chance to land decent hits, it is very likely that said 10k DPSer won't land enough hits during his full buff cycle to properly register on someone's parser.
Seeing as parsers record damage dealt and not potential damage, this is proved by the sheer necessity to attack something in order to see what damage you dealt, if someone can't land enough AOE hits before NPCs are destroyed then it stands to reason (to one's own logical mind) that their DPS won't be accurately measured.
So all this talk about DPS has the same level of effect and importance as power levels do in DBZ.
Surely to provide "freely available" proof of one's own true DPS, one should solo queues so that there are no outside influences, i.e. other player's debuffs and so on to accurately "freely"and "availably" "true" DPS values?
Well I've only experienced the crippling lag when TS/Kemo is used on groups of pooled enemies.
Like the spheres in ISA for example.
There was lag due to FaW and Beta, but supposedly that was fixed a while ago, and I've not had an issue with that for some time.
I would say the current issue is far worse.
Maybe the people who can't afford kemo also play on very low-end computers? Get a better graphics card that can handle all the extra particle effects. Or turn all your graphics settings to low. Very, very low. Pleb.
Like I ask again, where is your proof? How many times do I have to ask you to post proof or parses. Post your parses not wild claims. All the information I stated are publicly available. But like all things requires at least an effort from to you actually research it.
Remember, playing X number of years doesnt equate a player being capable especially if that player Playing X number of years is exposed with the incorrect information for the X number of years.
Now with regards to players with experience getting AFK, this was discussed many times in this forums. We can classify these "veterans" who get AFK as two things:
1) They are purposely getting AFK. They are leeches who want to remove the AFk penatly in order for their leeching ways to be unpenalized.
2) Dunning-Kruger effect - Players who think that are capable but are not really capable; This video explains it more bluntly :
You may need to watch that video again yourself. You don't seem to have the skills to be good at avoiding 'online disinhibition effect', but then you wouldn't know that I suppose.
I don't need to parse anything to have seen the damage numbers listed in my chat log. If there is a record of that battle in STO somewhere, I admit that knowing where it is, is outside my current experience, but I will track that down at some point, if it is possible. I know what I experienced in the Fleet Alert mission, and I saw the events of that mission logged into my chat window, so I don't need any more than that to know there was a massive DPS difference. I didn't break out a calculator, but on the low end the difference compared to just one player was approximately 60 to 1.
Now I don't care if you believe me, since it isn't you I am really trying to reach, despite the fact it is you I am typing at right now. If you stop reading now, I won't blame you, but I am still typing at you either way. That said, I'll continue.
The ratios of damage I observed made my ships contributions look like almost nothing by comparison. This is obviously why I was flagged. Now here is where I really feel you lack the skill to understand. You keep missing the reality of how queueing works in the real game, where most of us try to play the game without having to be a jacked up DPS machine with an elitist attitude. Let me explain.
Any player who wants to, and is eligible to, may take a queued mission. Any player. Do you follow me? Now, nobody knows what other people are bringing into the queue, so sometimes you have a level 5 ship in there. I know this may seem strange to you from your super DPS cloud, but the game is actually designed that way. To include low level characters, do you understand? Now, sometimes it also happens that high DPS players at 50+ level, or even level 60 end up in those ques as well. You see, the game is inclusive. Say it with me. I-n-c-l-u-s-i-v-e! What that means is that everyone should be able to participate, and get along. Now nobody really knows when this may happen, but sometimes very high level DPS'rs end up with players of very low level builds along side of them in a mission. This has some interesting effects on game play though. I will explain.
You see the game rates 'participation' by how much DPS you do. I know you know what DPS is. Now the thing about DPS is that some people take it to very extreme outputs, which is mostly a good thing. That is something you probably ARE good at. Where it isn't good, is when one of the queued groups is mostly made up of high DPS'rs, but has one, or maybe two very low level players. When that happens the game is at risk of becoming out of balance. As someone approaching this discussion from the point of view of a book-format game designer, I do understand game balance. That is where the game makes sure all players can actually play, without being overshadowed by either the elements of the game itself, or other players. Do you follow me?
Now when a game becomes 'out of balance' that means either the game is harder than it was supposed to be for everyone, or it is to easy for everyone, or it favors certain players over others in a way that ruins the game for some of them, possibly even most of them. When the game is to hard, or to easy, everyone complains, but when the game favors a selected group of player at the expense of the others, the favored players will not typically complain. They nay really like the situation, and may prefer it was never fixed. They may even deny there is a problem. Do you understand? That sort of thinking may inhibit the development of any solutions to the problem, and may foster animosity between players from the favored group, and the other players. That isn't good. No sir!
Now I am sure you don't need a math degree to understand that a ship that does maybe 300 dps is going to be insignificant next to other ships starting at 60k dps. If there is more than one at that difference in relative power, in a que, there will likely be penalties for the smaller ship later. Do you know what? The penalty is given in spite of the fact that the low level player had no idea who else was in the queue when they joined it. So the low level ship had no way of knowing if they were going to be so out classed in performance. All they can do is try to make the team better when the game is underway. They can be right in the middle using all the stuff they have, and it won't make enough difference. The low level character will get a penalty. Do you know why?
It isn't because they are a leech, although that does happen with characters of any level. It also isn't because the player is incompetent although any level of player may be incompetent. It is because the game allows ships with extremely different measures of power into the same queued missions. The game does this because it is 'inclusive'. Remember?
Now, some players who are elitist jackwits occassionally claim this has to be the fault of the player of the low level character. We know this because these same jackwits can be pretty obnoxious about their opinion. The truth is that any player of a low level toon can end up in this situation merely for choosing to take any queued mission where the top level toon that is allowed to participate, is much higher level than their own. This is a matter of luck, and game design. Low level characters have to take missions to advance, just like any other toons, so blaming them for doing so is at least thoughtless, and very often takes on rude tones. It happens that the Fleet Alert misson is offered at a very low level, and can be entered at a level of only '5'! Players at level 60 may also play. Can you divide 60 by 5?
Now by level 50 most players have some pretty awesome gear to assist them, so the simple ratio of 12 to 1 is misleading. The fact that there are players doing 50k, 100k, or 160k dps shows that the time a player spends upgrading a character can have huge influence. That time is a luxury that low level characters don't have. They are new characters after all. They have to level to even get any really good stuff. When they are penalized for playing, this sets them back, and wastes their time.
People who say that you just need the right build, need to make a T1 or T2 ship do 50k dps, and get back to me. Some people like to cry out for proof. I'd like some also. Where is the planet killing T2 build? If there is any such thing, it would solve the problem for everyone. I believe nobody can make that build with a level 10 character. I flat dare anyone to try and come close! Having a new low level toon or ship isn't a crime, but build choices are limited.
Now that we have had time to consider all of these easily observable in-game realities, we are left with a few questions, but first I think that we need to actually acknowledge the problem, and not hide behind denial and blaming the victim. Those are often the habits of a bully with something to lose, or the reaction of self important and lazy types who only want to fix things that harm them specifically. Unbalanced game play is a constant problem that hurts the whole community, and we all need to be concerned.
The questions ...
My main question is this. How do you fix the problem created by the expanding power variance, so that it no longer punishes unfairly by causing AFK penalties? Note, we still need to stop leeches somehow, so any answer has to address this issue. Leeches are why this other problem evolved in the first place, and are a real problem also. Also how do you get people who are not being harmed by this to see the situation in terms of how it affects other players who ARE harmed by it? Note that this needs to be done to avoid flame wars and other divisive distractions like this whole thread.
I am more than ever convinced of a divide between DPS'rs and the rest, but I would like to be proven wrong. in any case, I stand by what I have said here. I have once more covered my points. People who deny this sort of thing happens to players who are competent, and honest, can get stuffed. I have no more time for those types and their pretensions. Parses are not something I do yet. Still, my claims are easily supported by the reality that I am hardly alone, and that others are affected as I have been.
Also they are supported by the known existence as mentioned by others on this thread, of players who often go well past 50k dps. Odds are they run in small groups anyway, since many are in the same organizations and know each other. This means you can end up with a pack of them accidentally. All you have to be is a low level character with bad luck regarding who you end up in a que with. High DPS'rs will have a fair chance of getting YOU flagged. I find no compelling argument to change my stance on this thread.
Qapla
I doubt fixing kemo is going to drive people away from lockboxes. It will probably reduce the number of xindi boxes being opened, because people won't be pushing to fill all their boff abilities with kemo. It's the abusers that are causing the big problem. I avoid queues with certain people, because I know the ts/klw spam is coming. This is a very small portion of the dpsers and an even miniscule portion of the population, but the effect is felt serverwide.
I appreciate you saying so. I don't really care if they are 'wizards' by some arbitrary definition. I only care that they suddenly seem to be in a Queue I had joined, and it cost me, and I can see where it is costing others.
I just want the devs to know that they need a different way to screen out leeches. The inclusiveness of the game will become even more damaged otherwise.
I would have left off of this thread for good, but some of the posters like to act as if there are only idiots or thieves who get this AFK penalty, and they are flat wrong. I am sure it could happen to any one of them as well.
Thanks for the comment
Qapla.
You can't join many Queues until you reach a certain level. When you first start, you can't do queues that reward rep marks like the Borg queues or the Iconian queues for instance. You have to level up first. So there's no excuse to be taking a miranda that does 300 dps into any of the queues that reward rep marks. In fact I wish there was a ship tier check to prevent people from taking anything less than a T5 into these. It's easy to get a T5 MU ship from the exchange to do this.
That said, a new player queuing up for Starbase 24 or Fleet Alert is more likely than not doing it for the XP rewarded from lots of ships blowing up, and not anything else. Both of these queues are great for low level players as a way to power level - but if you are in a miranda doing 300 DPS you will be woefully outclassed by even a casual player doing 3k DPS let alone someone doing 100k.
The thing is, you don't stay at level 5 flying a miranda for very long. So I don't see a big problem about this like you seem to. Nor do I see any kind of a solution in your post.
My solution? Ship tier checks. Make it so that most queues require you to be in at least a T5 ship. Each ship already has a tier assigned to it - so this is something that (hopefully) wouldn't be too difficult to do. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean they would know how to fit or fly their ship, but it's a start. I also don't think this is too great of any expectation for most players considering how easy it is to get an MU ship to meet the requirement. It would include the free to play players and also create a situation that allows all the players in the group to exceed the minimum amount of damage needed to earn a reward.
Or if you wanted to get real hardcore about it, give all gear in the game a gear score and having a gear check. Like you need a gear score of 1,000 to do Fleet Alert or a gear score of 10,000 to do CCA. This would take more work to do and IMO would create a difficult hurdle for a lot of casual players, and probably drive people away. So it wouldn't be my preferred solution.
Saying that though, I haven't met a DPSer that can do that and it is rare to meet someone that isn't looking out for himself and calling others "noob" or "unskilled". What I have met and heard about in-game is a few DPSers calling everyone noobs and challenging anyone that stands up for themselves to a match. It's happened to me, it's happened to a friend of mine and it's happened to PvPers I used to see regularly in Ker'rat and C&H.
You can imagine the ensuing hilarity and sheer discombobulation when a PvE elite with a 100k DPS build falls to a 4K PvP build.
This is a statement filled with logical failings. You probably have met DPSers that aren't like you describe above, because not all DSPers brag or put people down. On the other hand, maybe you haven't met enough DPSers and have met only a poor representation of the population. You are painting a group with a broad stroke and I've met plenty(a large majority), who don't behave this way. Do you have some sort of agenda against DPSers? Why would you try to make a whole community look bad, when it's just a few that behave poorly?
You seriously overrate the difficulty of PVE in this game. You seriously underrate how players will adapt to the new content, understand the flow, and apply all the strengths of modern builds to trivialize it.
Edit: Every queue that has ever been implemented has always been figured out. Once the "flow" of the instance has been figured out, it's a simple matter of applying your ship's power to overcome the content.
"This is exactly what the not so good players want: PvP against PvE! DPSers against PvPers! The more we show them what can be achieved with a build, the more nerfs we'll get, and the less chance we have against farming our dilithium, marks and R&D materials!"
what baseness, bravo!
I really like your suggestion about ship checks. I really, really do! For myself, I never knew this sort of thing could happen. It wasn't even on my radar. I usually am more concerned with getting Fleet Marks, than Rep Marks because I am all about my team, and Fleet Marks help everyone. The reason I care personally about the low vs high T-ships boils down mostly to trying to help new recruits to my Fleet to get to the higher levels without making them turn away from the game out of frustration. Secondarily, I was creating a whole batch of new low level toons to run with my noobs so I wouldn't steal their thunder to much, and they could learn to be good without having me rescue them in a T5+.
Finding out from the point of view of a potential noob, that I could be robbed of my efforts by a super DPS machine made me, well, furious! Unfair punishment is wrong period. Calling people who run into this problem liars, cheats, or whatever, whether a gamebot, or a person making the accusation, is not acceptable imho. My noobs are always welcome in any Team we run as a Fleet, but we also make sure they get in on the kills. We take care of our people. I want to make sure the noobs have fun along with our DPS machines. We have a few of those also, but they don't get so proud of themselves that they forget when they were noobs, and they make great teachers for our people. I taught them how to play decently, and they in turn chose to excel at combat, and complete the circle by bringing it home. I am very proud of all of them. My high DPS Fleet players are honorable, and if they carry a noob, they make sure the noob is there for the reward also.
Now basically I expect this game to TRIBBLE up a fair bit. A ship check for high or low level missions would help a lot, and this is the sort of response I have been looking for. An idea that helps prevent leeches, but makes the gap between participants more manageable. You are probably my favorite person on this thread right now, because you see exactly what I am talking about, and offered some ideas. If I can do something for you, whatever it might be, let me know
Qapla
Where do I find more about the new queue specifically. It sounds right for what I want my Fleet to be involved in. Thanks in advance
Qapla
My friend, I'm not saying its dificult, i believe the opposite. PvE in this game is remarkably easy with some teamwork and yet you only see a handfull of queues popping with pugs. Its not because the others are difficult, it's because they cant be cured with moar DPS. the majority of players wnat to look out for themselves and try to carry the mission by themselves, then they blame everyone else for not working as a team.
The DPS crownd has been so good at advertising itself that people arent willing to play the sci captain throwing the debuffs around, or the eng tank keeping the pressure off escorts and sci ships. Its all me me me me me with all the DPS.
As a side point, how many players have adapted to the new queues without relying on broken equipment and buffs? Because thats not adapting, thats lazy exploiting.
Interesting, not too long ago the same thing was said of the PvP crowd. You're right i have met a few DPSers that werent like that but they are a rare sight.
Answer me this, how many DPSers have you seen fighting for item/power/trait balance and queues that involve the inclusion of the differnet career choices and something other than DPS? Because from the looks of things they seem pretty happy to let the whole "current broken meta" system to continue in their ever growing lust for moar deeeeeeeps.
This is a massively flawed solution! Mainly because you're attributing skill and ability to the possession of certain ships and gear. If I want to pug in a T1 Connie, I should be allowed to. If I want to run only mines, I should be allowed to. Am I a dead weight? Not exactly. Are the missions failing? No.
The issue is not what people use or have. The issue is down to how well they are able to use what they have. I pug loads, and in all different types of ships, with all different types of builds. Are the all 'optimal'? Usually not, but they are viable, and more importantly, they're fun. And at the end of the day, this is a game, and should be fun. So if I want to use all Andorian DHC's and try and get max one hits off Wing Cannon Overload, or fly my D'Kyr because no one else does, I will.
Actually risingwolfshadow seems to be saying that they personally have not seen many DPSers who come across as ethically appealing. A personal observation can't have any logical failings when all it does is relate a perceived personal experience. It is no more illogical than a photograph, but like a photograph, it may be a little out of focus. I know very ethical, kind, and honorable DPS/PVPers. I have some in my Fleet. However I have run into the other types as well.
I think there are places on the maps, and places in the game, where you are more likely to run into vainglorious jerkwad asshats who are so full of their own awesomeness that you can't even talk to them. Just like there are places where you can scope out the real helpful types in the chat windows. In practice I just don't talk to the preening self appointed royals, and avoid them. I always keep an eye out for people who are having questions, and also who else besides myself will try to help them, and those people I try to keep in touch with, or even recruit.
I do think DPSers fall into the very helpful, or very selfish extremes though. I usually get a pretty strong impression off of them either way, and I'm not sure what that says about the DPS oriented portion of the community. I don't want to use to broad a brush either, but it does seem you either have shining knights, or ogres.
If there are other ways we should be seeing the DPS crowd, maybe it is partly the DPS crowds job to help us see them in that different way. Most of the rumors about DPSers are usually one sided. If I didn't have DPSers in my Fleet, I would avoid them based on the rumors, but I fortunately know it is not that cut and dried. They are also just people. Very competitive people, but still, just folks.
Back to the photograph example; If the picture we have of DPS/PVPers is negative more then half of the time (I'm willing to say this could be unfair) than why is it? I don't like jealousy as the answer because it is to cheap, and besides, I can't see much to be jealous about except doing lots of damage, and that isn't really enough to make the argument for me. Arrogance is also a cheap answer, but paints the whole DPS crowd in a manner I think is unfair. I'd like to think the answer was more subtle, and potentially reducible.
Maybe someone here has an idea?
Anyway, Qapla!
Instead, I haven't met yet that kind of DPSer which you are describing ... mmm ... I can think of a guy who could do this but I have almost never talked with him so it's just speculation.
For the most part, people are going to take the path of least resistance and take the rom/tac route. Look at kemocite-laced weapons, the bugs were brought out and reported by the dps community. Odenknight is the biggest proponent of torpedo balance. Let me ask you this, if engineers and scientists were dps machines like tac, would there really be any balance? To me, it seems like when people think dps, they just jump quickly to ISA. There are queues where other careers are of great benefit to have, ie. Aggronauts and HSE. I agree with you on looking forward to the new queues, for the challenge. Just because someone has high dps, doesn't mean they bought all the best stuff and got on the top of the charts. You have to actually be able to fly your ship efficiently to push out those kind of numbers. These guys are good with tactics, but reward vs. work comes into play. If they actually added good enough rewards for things like Breach Elite or Storming the Spire Elite, there are many DPSers that would be all over that. There are some of us who relish the challenge, even without the huge rewards.
By saying he hasn't met a DPSer that doesn't do what he says above, that is a fallacy of composition. Just because a few are that way, doesn't mean the whole group is. People that are jerks to others tend to be remembered or noticed more than those who are not. Who knows, maybe competition draws people with those extreme personalities, both ways.
And that wasn't what he said. He only said "I experienced the following" not "The following is what you'll always get".
Yes, it is implied. And yes, the memories work as you describe, so he could be wrong (not lying but misremembering) this - which is likely since you have no chance of finding out the "DPS attitude" of somebody who does not talk.
But since this forum seems to become a discussion ground for types of fallacies (which more often than not falls victim to the "fallacy fallacy" - just because somebody commited a logical fallacy does not mean that he is wrong in his conclusions, but I digress), the quoted statement did not include any fallacies, and I am fairly certain that is all Admiral Kogar wanted to point out.