Oh, I get it now the thread title was being sarcastic.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
EDIT: If you think this is a whine because I died in PvP, you're sorely mistaken. Does it make sense to you that you can do 100k damage in the blink of an eye, popping a Cube and the one next to it based off of pure random chance? Does it make sense that something that was nerfed because it was too powerful in PvE (yes, PvE) is now way more powerful than it was before?
First shots of the match, before anyone even had a chance to do anything. Took myself and one other person (that he wasn't even targetting) out in the blink of an eye, before anyone had the chance to react.
That's nearly 100,000 damage, straight to hull, through resists. Over 130% of my ship's entire hull value (Fleet Pathfinder) from a random 2.5% proc for "free" damage.
Make sense to anyone?
Before you start saying "But... but... but... PvP!" consider how much damage it's doing in PvE as well. People report getting over 30% (sometimes upwards of 50%) of their damage from Plasma Explosions alone - a 2.5% chance proc for free damage, let me remind you. Think I'm overexaggerating their broken nature? Hint: Take a look at the tooltip for explosion damage on a Mk XIV Very or Ultra Rare console and compare it to a Mk XIV Epic.
Spoiler Alert: The scaling gives the Epic version a huge boost.
This is the "nerfed" version because the previous version was OP. And it's even more powerful than before. GG Cryptic.
[Names blanked out for obvious reasons]
Stop crying. The plasma weapons alone dont do the damage, If you dont like it get better its that simple. Stop crying nerf every time somebody does something great for themselves, Stop trying to mess with what people have figured out.
Stop crying. The plasma weapons alone dont do the damage, If you dont like it get better its that simple. Stop crying nerf every time somebody does something great for themselves, Stop trying to mess with what people have figured out.
Figured what out exactly? That they're overperforming?
Protip: If you're not going to read the thread, at least read the OP. It prevents you from looking like a fool, especially when you tell other people to stop crying and whining.
It also helps if you actually even have an inkling of what the thread is about, as it actually has nothing at all to do with Plasma weapons.
I'm sorry if you feel the suggestion doesn't contribute, but it does. The only player suggestions that Cryptic listens to are ones like this asking for power reduction. The source of these requests is usually someone that dies really fast in PvP. Enough already.
Gonna be brutally self-centered here for a moment, but the problem I have, in general, with suggestions from the OP (and similar request), is that he's in the 100k+ League. Those ppl can afford to be magnanimous about nerfs, lose 30k in the process, and still have 70k left. (Ok, I probably exaggerated tne numbers a bit, as I can't look em up any more, but still) Me? When I lose 30k, well, then I got as good as nothing left. :P The thing just is, like with the SS3 nerf, it hardly affects the top-players, but the middle-class ppl, like yours truly, get hit by their nerfs the hardest. And I wish they'd just let my play my game.
Yup, told you it was gonna be brutally self-centered; but it's a reality for me nonetheless.
Then, instead of wondering how the "100k+ League" does it, why don't you come learn from us on how it's done? It's not like anyone is hiding it. Http://stocontinuum.com
If these consoles do get nerfed due to PvP whiners then i will be pissed, the simplest, easiest and best resolution to PvP's issue with these consoles is make a unwritten rule NOT TO USE THEM IN PVP.
That way PvE doesn't get screwed over again on the Dil/Crafting materials/Upgrade tech costs they made to incorporate these consoles and also spoil our fun because a unsupported and yes PvP is unsupported by Cryptic, hand on heart can anyone who PvP's honestly say that part of the game is and has been developed.
Look at the power creep introduced with Delta Rising, Starship Mastery's/Specialisation Trees, Embassy Consoles change, The new Research Consoles. None of this was designed with PvP in mind, so stop asking for nerfs for PvE content because its totally unbalanced in PvP. Ask and keep asking for PvP to be a self contained separate entity from PvE, Which Cryptic have no intention of ever doing much like ever developing PvP
So it comes back down to the PvP community making their own rules of conduct for PvP to create their own balance. because as i mentioned Cryptic do not support PvP, do not develop PvP and release power creep after power creep which is unbalanced in PvP.
Cryptic hurt PvP with content and PvP hurt PvE because content is unbalanced in PvP and the circle continues.
If these consoles do get nerfed due to PvP whiners then i will be pissed, the simplest, easiest and best resolution to PvP's issue with these consoles is make a unwritten rule NOT TO USE THEM IN PVP.
That way PvE doesn't get screwed over again on the Dil/Crafting materials/Upgrade tech costs they made to incorporate these consoles and also spoil our fun because a unsupported and yes PvP is unsupported by Cryptic, hand on heart can anyone who PvP's honestly say that part of the game is and has been developed.
Look at the power creep introduced with Delta Rising, Starship Mastery's/Specialisation Trees, Embassy Consoles change, The new Research Consoles. None of this was designed with PvP in mind, so stop asking for nerfs for PvE content because its totally unbalanced in PvP. Ask and keep asking for PvP to be a self contained separate entity from PvE, Which Cryptic have no intention of ever doing much like ever developing PvP
So it comes back down to the PvP community making their own rules of conduct for PvP to create their own balance. because as i mentioned Cryptic do not support PvP, do not develop PvP and release power creep after power creep which is unbalanced in PvP.
Cryptic hurt PvP with content and PvP hurt PvE because content is unbalanced in PvP and the circle continues.
Because random procs for 50k damage are somehow balanced in PVE?
Not being snarky. Not being snide. But I would love to see how some of those who hit such high DPS fare in PvP.
Because again, without wanting to sound insulting, there is a huge difference between fighting stupid, wallowing, lumbering NPC Borg ships which sit their to be shot at, and fighting players who do their utmost to NOT get shot at.
See my vids after clicking on one of my ship builds in my signature. I also have the logs of how these consoles are performing in both PvE and PvP. To say that the damage is equivalent to a HY1 torpedo on bare hull every 4-7 seconds is an understatement.
PvP whiners are really something. I don't do PvP and never will because it's a waste of time and resources. People who take pleasure in beating other people for no reward other than the feeling itself, cry and whine when someone does it to them.
Protip: The vast majority of PvPers would enjoy a match that goes 15-14 infinitely more than a match that goes 15-0. Because roflstomping through your opponents just isn't fun. If we wanted that, we'd just stick to PvE
That is not why we PvP. We PvP because it's a challenge and requires teamwork. There's nothing more fun than getting together with your fleet/friends and having to work together very closely in order to beat another team that's doing the exact same to you. Ideally (and usually) it's done under entirely amicable circumstances.
Are there spats, disagreements, and unpleasantness? Sure. That's hardly a PvP-exclusive occurance. Look at all the people who get upset at people with high DPS. Why do you not see as much unpleasantness in PvE as much as PvP? Well, who are you going to direct it at? An NPC? It's a lot easier to direct your ire at an actual person, rather than a braindead AI.
Evidence of the overall amicability? Look at just how many people are willing to share their builds, help improve other's builds, initiatives like PvP boot camp, etc.
Typical bully behaviour mostly noticeable on Kerrat space mission where people with insane post DR builds whack it off on noobs who just started playing the game and came there to get some mk vi gear. Happened to me when I first started playing, almost quit the game because that's all I knew on level 22 after two weeks in the game. And that was way before DR bs.
Wait... aren't you whining about being beaten in PvP, the exact same thing you just accused me (the OP) of?
Did you really expect to waltz into a PvP War Zone (Ker'rat) and not get attacked? That sounds like it's your own fault.
Make your own build then and do the same and then it will be about skill only. Skilled in who can outmaneuver who to stick it to the other guy.
Yes, that's what we'd like. That's why we always share our builds, but with the caveat and disclaimer that it won't always work for someone else. You can copy/pasta someone's build, but that doesn't mean you'll be as skilled with it.
However, Cryptic has thrown balance out the window and turned it into "Who can use this cheese first?"
Overall... what is your point, exactly? You got beat in PvP once (because of your own fault) and now you think any suggestions from a PvPer are irrelevant?
Look at OdenKnight's post just above yours. He's one of the best PvEers around, does an immense amount of testing, and has excellent knowledge of the game. If he says it's broken, it's broken. He's brought logs to prove it.
That is in combination with everything else that's been said in this thread. What more do you need?
It's never just about PvP. That's hilariously shortsighted.
When something is over-performing in PvE that throws off the metrics. People start finishing maps and earning marks/dilithium/etc. in shorter times, and Cryptic doesn't want that. When this happens Cryptic responds, generally by simply adding hit points to NPCs and/or lowering optional timers because they need to normalize the metrics. They have an ideal completion time for content to reflect ROI in regards to time. So everything gets adjusted upward to account for shifts and outliers.
The result? Your overpowered items cease being overpowered because Cryptic compensates for it due to changes in the metrics, and now they become standard and everything else becomes junk. The consoles, effectively, become necessary for everyone to complete content at their previous time/success rate. So if your completion rate was low prior to these consoles, they will be again as the game is shifted to meet the new paradigm. We've seen this done ad nauseam as a response to increases in player power, explaining why NPCs are now just ridiculously large bags of hit points at higher difficulties, and why optional timers keep getting shorter and shorter in the queues.
So now everyone needs that gear, which basically destroys any notion of "choice". You can't choose to use something else without under-performing. So what does that mean? Well, you go right back to where you started, everyone who chooses not to those consoles get screwed, and every science console in the game, drop or crafted, that's not plasma infused has it's value drastically slashed thus effecting the market as more and more consoles become nothing more than vendor trash.
If your build is so reliant on a single broken console to reach standard times of completion then you need to fix the rest of your build, because there are people who's builds aren't using it as a crutch, and more and more of those people will see their completion times drop to levels that Cryptic doesn't want, and eventually they can't tolerate.
While people are more apt to cry foul over a nerf, it's better for the game than more hit points for enemies and shorter times for optionals, and at the end of the day those will be the only two options on the table... one might be bad for you, but the other is bad for everyone including you.
It's never just about PvP. That's hilariously shortsighted.
When something is over-performing in PvE that throws off the metrics. People start finishing maps and earning marks/dilithium/etc. in shorter times, and Cryptic doesn't want that. When this happens Cryptic responds, generally by simply adding hit points to NPCs and/or lowering optional timers because they need to normalize the metrics. They have an ideal completion time for content to reflect ROI in regards to time. So everything gets adjusted upward to account for shifts and outliers.
The result? Your overpowered items cease being overpowered because Cryptic compensates for it due to changes in the metrics, and now they become standard and everything else becomes junk. The consoles, effectively, become necessary for everyone to complete content at their previous time/success rate. So if your completion rate was low prior to these consoles, they will be again as the game is shifted to meet the new paradigm. We've seen this done ad nauseam as a response to increases in player power, explaining why NPCs are now just ridiculously large bags of hit points at higher difficulties, and why optional timers keep getting shorter and shorter in the queues.
So now everyone needs that gear, which basically destroys any notion of "choice". You can't choose to use something else without under-performing. So what does that mean? Well, you go right back to where you started, everyone who chooses not to those consoles get screwed, and every science console in the game, drop or crafted, that's not plasma infused has it's value drastically slashed thus effecting the market as more and more consoles become nothing more than vendor trash.
If your build is so reliant on a single broken console to reach standard times of completion then you need to fix the rest of your build, because there are people who's builds aren't using it as a crutch, and more and more of those people will see their completion times drop to levels that Cryptic doesn't want, and eventually they can't tolerate.
While people are more apt to cry foul over a nerf, it's better for the game than more hit points for enemies and shorter times for optionals, and at the end of the day those will be the only two options on the table... one might be bad for you, but the other is bad for everyone including you.
Thank you. This is excellent for providing context and some insight to the "Ugh, PvP, don't care. Don't touch my shinies!" crowd.
Thank you. This is excellent for providing context and some insight to the "Ugh, PvP, don't care. Don't touch my shinies!" crowd.
No problem. I'm mainly a PvEer so it's the perspective I have to approach it from.
I haven't PvPed much since launch for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I didn't like the cloak ambush/fed ball thing... there was really just the two tactics responding to each other at that point and it got boring fast. Seems like there's more to it at this point, but now I couldn't even imagine trying to catch up to where the current PvP crowd is.
...the "Ugh, PvP, don't care. Don't touch my shinies!" crowd.
The second reason is because, well, if you removed the bold part there you could be talking about Cryptic. They simply disregard it. It's hard to get invested into something and care about something into which the developers invest nothing and are, at best, ambivalent toward it.
Which, incidentally, is why it's a bit laughable that people might think the console could be nerfed due to the PvP crowd. In order for that to happen Cryptic would have to listen to the PvP crowd and care about their opinion. I don't see that happening. Really, I don't see Cryptic paying attention to people in general, ignoring them in favor of metrics over and over again. When people voice an opinion they simply write it off as the "vocal minority" and point to the almighty and all-knowing spreadsheet they use for guidance.
So yeah, I fully believe that if anything gets these consoles nerfed into conformity it will be the PvE metrics.
Stop crying. The plasma weapons alone dont do the damage, If you dont like it get better its that simple. Stop crying nerf every time somebody does something great for themselves, Stop trying to mess with what people have figured out.
Figured what out exactly? That they're overperforming?
Protip: If you're not going to read the thread, at least read the OP. It prevents you from looking like a fool, especially when you tell other people to stop crying and whining.
It also helps if you actually even have an inkling of what the thread is about, as it actually has nothing at all to do with Plasma weapons.
Its always the underperformers that cry about the so called "Overperformers". Its very simple get better like I always say. I dont ever cry nerf and if players leave because they dont wanna learn and just expect the game to change around their playstyle (Which is ridiculous) Good riddance. The people that are being stamped out are the ones people dont want in the queues with them anyways.
My builds don't rely on the consoles, I have a eng in a dominion dreadnought carrier that hits 20k dps in isa runs. An eng in a Fleet Sovvie that does the between 17-19k using phasers.
Using a science captain then the plasma explosion proc doesn't crit for very high numbers, normally its around the 6k-8k mark unless i get really lucky and it goes over 10k. Its only on Tacts with insane critd/crth and all the buffs tact gets where these consoles hit for considerably more. But even then they vary between the 6-8k mark and yes i've seen hits for 50000k when doing Japori. I've also seen a torpedo high yield do the same. However when pugging advanced or normal stf's with non-dps players this plasma doping/explosions is a non-issue.
Its all about PvP crying about a a console that CAN crit for high numbers and you just don't like it.
Rather than moaning about how broken it is for PvP and going about trying to get something nerfed from that angle which is what pisses me off as you're a small number of players that are not relevant to the success of the game (Cryptics own thinking which is why no development has gone into PvP).
Prove and provide unquestionable data that they are broken in PvE to Cryptic
But even then they vary between the 6-8k mark and yes i've seen hits for 50000k when doing Japori. I've also seen a torpedo high yield do the same. However when pugging advanced or normal stf's with non-dps players this plasma doping/explosions is a non-issue.
Its all about PvP crying about a a console that CAN crit for high numbers and you just don't like it.
Rather than moaning about how broken it is for PvP and going about trying to get something nerfed from that angle which is what pisses me off as you're a small number of players that are not relevant to the success of the game (Cryptics own thinking which is why no development has gone int o PvP).
Prove and provide unquestionable data that they are broken in PvE to Cryptic
That's exactly the problem, correct. "Normal" Crits are ok (maybe a tad bit higher than they should be, but whatever) - minus the fact that they only Crit with FAW.
It's the ultra high Crits that Tacs get that make no sense.
You have once again failed at answer - do you believe that it makes sense for the Crits to have more value than an entire player hull? Or fire off in strings that occur in less than 2 seconds that damage for over twice a player's hull?
I've already provided one example of how they're problematic in PvE: Popping an entire Cube through a single Crit alone, and then taking out the Cube next to it (that you're not even targeting) through another free FAW crit.
If your read above, happyhappyjoyjoy has provided an excellent in-depth explanation of why it's detrimental to PvE. The basic gist of it is that it greatly lowers the time it takes to complete a queue/objective/mission since you can have significantly higher sustained damage and huge bursts that pop targets. This, in turn, causes Cryptic to do things like greatly increase the amount of HP an NPC has, as a method of "time gating" things so that they take longer (because metrics).
So, as you can see, it's not just a PvP issue - when it starts wrecking with PvE balance, we end up with things like DR. And no one likes that.
Stop crying. The plasma weapons alone dont do the damage, If you dont like it get better its that simple. Stop crying nerf every time somebody does something great for themselves, Stop trying to mess with what people have figured out.
Figured what out exactly? That they're overperforming?
Protip: If you're not going to read the thread, at least read the OP. It prevents you from looking like a fool, especially when you tell other people to stop crying and whining.
It also helps if you actually even have an inkling of what the thread is about, as it actually has nothing at all to do with Plasma weapons.
Its always the underperformers that cry about the so called "Overperformers". Its very simple get better like I always say. I dont ever cry nerf and if players leave because they dont wanna learn and just expect the game to change around their playstyle (Which is ridiculous) Good riddance. The people that are being stamped out are the ones people dont want in the queues with them anyways.
I'd advise you to read the thread.
But, if you feel that I am underperforming, and choose to ignore the advice and findings of many others in this thread, please feel free to tell me exactly how to defend against these.
PvP whiners are really something. I don't do PvP and never will because it's a waste of time and resources. People who take pleasure in beating other people for no reward other than the feeling itself, cry and whine when someone does it to them. Typical bully behaviour mostly noticeable on Kerrat space mission where people with insane post DR builds whack it off on noobs who just started playing the game and came there to get some mk vi gear. Happened to me when I first started playing, almost quit the game because that's all I knew on level 22 after two weeks in the game. And that was way before DR bs.
Make your own build then and do the same and then it will be about skill only. Skilled in who can outmaneuver who to stick it to the other guy.
My builds don't rely on the consoles, I have a eng in a dominion dreadnought carrier that hits 20k dps in isa runs. An eng in a Fleet Sovvie that does the between 17-19k using phasers.
Using a science captain then the plasma explosion proc doesn't crit for very high numbers, normally its around the 6k-8k mark unless i get really lucky and it goes over 10k. Its only on Tacts with insane critd/crth and all the buffs tact gets where these consoles hit for considerably more. But even then they vary between the 6-8k mark and yes i've seen hits for 50000k when doing Japori. I've also seen a torpedo high yield do the same. However when pugging advanced or normal stf's with non-dps players this plasma doping/explosions is a non-issue.
Its all about PvP crying about a a console that CAN crit for high numbers and you just don't like it.
Rather than moaning about how broken it is for PvP and going about trying to get something nerfed from that angle which is what pisses me off as you're a small number of players that are not relevant to the success of the game (Cryptics own thinking which is why no development has gone int o PvP).
Prove and provide unquestionable data that they are broken in PvE to Cryptic
Bottom line: the magnitude of the potential damage + frequency of occurrence + superior benefit for only one weapon class and one firing mode when it was advertised otherwise +100% shield bypass = Not good game mechanic.
Its always the underperformers that cry about the so called "Overperformers". Its very simple get better like I always say. I dont ever cry nerf and if players leave because they dont wanna learn and just expect the game to change around their playstyle (Which is ridiculous) Good riddance. The people that are being stamped out are the ones people dont want in the queues with them anyways.
A single console is over-performing. It has nothing to do with the player beyond whether they choose to slot it, or they choose to lose. It isn't a question of play style, and there's nothing to learn. You buy this console and you max it, then you fire your buffs and hit FAW. You do this all day long and hope when you do that you fire off your FAW first.
Being the first to mash FAW and to randomly fire lethal amounts of damage which entirely bypass defenses and immediately kill your enemy is not a play style. It's not even a strategy. It's the "1" key on your keyboard.
This is the antithesis of not wanting to learn. Wanting to keep this is not wanting to learn. Asking for this to remain as-is simply means you want a game where there is nothing to learn. A game where there is one right answer that is blindingly simple and where victory goes to the person lucky enough to fire it off first.
Ok for the top dps'ers that can make magic and make these consoles pop pretty much everything they appear to be Op'ed. To the average casual gamer as i said before they are a non-issue as they just equip them and off they go, not knowing how to get the best out of them. Rarely do i see pugs doing the damage you have provided and i doubt the wider player base is doing the dmg you have recorded.
The consoles aren't the only thing out of balance the whole game is broken with the bloated hull and shield hp of NPC's. Delta Rising's lack of thought put into raising difficulty levels caused the problem.
Right now all you have is high hp's, shield stripping and a few NPC's that disable systems.
Running into brick walls is neither fun or entertaining i found that out the 1st week DR hit, If they had left the hp and shields as they were at launch you'd find this game's PvE even more abandoned than now. so to have something that softens that brick wall is a ness evil.
And yes i do agree being one shot by these consoles as a player is not right. But i don't PvP therefore i don't care, i care about the part of the game i play PvE and MY ENJOYMENT (Just like you PvP and want to enjoy you're part of the game). I find PvP boring, i either Curb stomp my fleet mates , Get curb stomped if i play outside my fleet, or get stalemated which is zzzz......
One can put the blame game on the dev. team, on Geko, on the EP or anyone from PWE/Cryptic, but what destorys and ultimately kills games is shortsighted players with the attitude "I don't care if sth. is broken as hell, as long as I think it benefits me". Those people are the one true poison for any game.
Unfortunately, it seems we have enough of them around to export.
Its always the underperformers that cry about the so called "Overperformers". Its very simple get better like I always say. I dont ever cry nerf and if players leave because they dont wanna learn and just expect the game to change around their playstyle (Which is ridiculous) Good riddance. The people that are being stamped out are the ones people dont want in the queues with them anyways.
A single console is over-performing. It has nothing to do with the player beyond whether they choose to slot it, or they choose to lose. It isn't a question of play style, and there's nothing to learn. You buy this console and you max it, then you fire your buffs and hit FAW. You do this all day long and hope when you do that you fire off your FAW first.
Being the first to mash FAW and to randomly fire lethal amounts of damage which entirely bypass defenses and immediately kill your enemy is not a play style. It's not even a strategy. It's the "1" key on your keyboard.
This is the antithesis of not wanting to learn. Wanting to keep this is not wanting to learn. Asking for this to remain as-is simply means you want a game where there is nothing to learn. A game where there is one right answer that is blindingly simple and where victory goes to the person lucky enough to fire it off first.
Woah, what a nice rant about "If I use underwhelming tactics, I dont actually use underwhelming tactics." Of course there is a difference in playstyle, its the different of an "pragmatic gamer", who would use anything short of exploits and bugs (note: The consoles are overperforming, but arent bugged, hence no "real" exploiting), and the so-called "honorable gamer", who only uses what he sees balanced. Its a bit like going to a gunfight with a sword, since honorable people wouldnt use guns for such an occassion.
Yes, they are a tad OP-if used right- but if you dont slot them, its your choice to be on the receiving and losing side. And that has something to do with playstyle.
Woah, what a nice rant about "If I use underwhelming tactics, I dont actually use underwhelming tactics." Of course there is a difference in playstyle, its the different of an "pragmatic gamer", who would use anything short of exploits and bugs (note: The consoles are overperforming, but arent bugged, hence no "real" exploiting), and the so-called "honorable gamer", who only uses what he sees balanced. Its a bit like going to a gunfight with a sword, since honorable people wouldnt use guns for such an occassion.
Yes, they are a tad OP-if used right- but if you dont slot them, its your choice to be on the receiving and losing side. And that has something to do with playstyle.
Slot it, run beams, run faw... preferrably in a tac. Everybody should do this. We can all run the same ships, in the same way because to hell with diversity and balance. Am I right? Then whoever gets the RNG proc first wins!
Calling it a tad op, even in pve, is misleading.
Now I don't wish to discourage anyone from using their toys. That's not my place. If you need em, use em.
If you pvp with them, it increases your chance of success if you beam faw. This will give you a distinct advantage over your opponent for no other reason than because they're functioning out of proportion to every other use of the console. If that kind of play makes you smile, go get em! At the end of the day, it's your prerogative to decide if you need a handicap or not.
Bottom line: the magnitude of the potential damage + frequency of occurrence + superior benefit for only one weapon class and one firing mode when it was advertised otherwise +100% shield bypass = Not good game mechanic.
Marsh, there is no question that the consoles need to be fixed with the other weapons since snipey already has proven that thru the data presented.
The data I asked praxi is the controlled experiment when comparing with the old consoles since the propaganda in this thread that it is more powerful than previous pre nerf embassy consoles. That means using the equal amount of powercreep with the current consoles using the same amount of power creep as the previous consoles.
Right now, until the data can show me in a controlled environment of an apple to apple comparison vs old consoles all this is due to the new power creep that is put in the build which amplifies the embassy console instead which werent available with the old consoles. The first thing that comes into my mind is the 4pc ico set, Anchored trait since these are +all damage commonly used at top DPS. How much does that amplify with the Top Dpsers with and without it? How much does the haste weapons affect frequency of embassy proc which wasnt available back then?
If so, Wouldnt just be the fault here is the new powercreep that amplifies the embassy consoles rather than the embassy console themselves?
I keep an extensive library of logs in that link. I divided it between pre-EAP (Enhanced Armor Penetration and Neutronic fix) and post-EAP. You can see the logs w/ the plasma explosions pre-Iconian anything. If you're looking for the best idea of what an approximate expectation of performance is between the old and new consoles, find the date when the new ones were implemented, and then compare the logs with the closest dates to the date of implementation.
One can put the blame game on the dev. team, on Geko, on the EP or anyone from PWE/Cryptic, but what destorys and ultimately kills games is shortsighted players with the attitude "I don't care if sth. is broken as hell, as long as I think it benefits me". Those people are the one true poison for any game.
Unfortunately, it seems we have enough of them around to export.
This is the wisest post in here. Now regarding the plasma consoles, when the change from DoT to instant damage was made on trible, tests proved that one could crit even up to 100k dmg. In a target rich enviroment with bfaw it could add even 10k dps or more. Also that these would make Cryptic kinda shooting itself in the foot since they outperform greatly even the costly lobi consoles. I advocate back then for nerfs or at least a 10 sec lock/cooldown on them, same as another embassy console has (a healing one I think). Guess what... every dpser and their gramdmas overwhelmed that thread that those are not op at all... becouse they can dps with them... go figure argument there lol. It was hilarious but sad in the same time how some of the self-proclaimed experts were even lying that only 1 console would be best to use, yet.. guess what... they are staking them like pan-cakes and 3-5 of them is the "norm"...
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Stop crying. The plasma weapons alone dont do the damage, If you dont like it get better its that simple. Stop crying nerf every time somebody does something great for themselves, Stop trying to mess with what people have figured out.
Figured what out exactly? That they're overperforming?
Protip: If you're not going to read the thread, at least read the OP. It prevents you from looking like a fool, especially when you tell other people to stop crying and whining.
It also helps if you actually even have an inkling of what the thread is about, as it actually has nothing at all to do with Plasma weapons.
Then, instead of wondering how the "100k+ League" does it, why don't you come learn from us on how it's done? It's not like anyone is hiding it. Http://stocontinuum.com
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
That way PvE doesn't get screwed over again on the Dil/Crafting materials/Upgrade tech costs they made to incorporate these consoles and also spoil our fun because a unsupported and yes PvP is unsupported by Cryptic, hand on heart can anyone who PvP's honestly say that part of the game is and has been developed.
Look at the power creep introduced with Delta Rising, Starship Mastery's/Specialisation Trees, Embassy Consoles change, The new Research Consoles. None of this was designed with PvP in mind, so stop asking for nerfs for PvE content because its totally unbalanced in PvP. Ask and keep asking for PvP to be a self contained separate entity from PvE, Which Cryptic have no intention of ever doing much like ever developing PvP
So it comes back down to the PvP community making their own rules of conduct for PvP to create their own balance. because as i mentioned Cryptic do not support PvP, do not develop PvP and release power creep after power creep which is unbalanced in PvP.
Cryptic hurt PvP with content and PvP hurt PvE because content is unbalanced in PvP and the circle continues.
Because random procs for 50k damage are somehow balanced in PVE?
See my vids after clicking on one of my ship builds in my signature. I also have the logs of how these consoles are performing in both PvE and PvP. To say that the damage is equivalent to a HY1 torpedo on bare hull every 4-7 seconds is an understatement.
The logs don't lie.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Shall we begin?
Protip: The vast majority of PvPers would enjoy a match that goes 15-14 infinitely more than a match that goes 15-0. Because roflstomping through your opponents just isn't fun. If we wanted that, we'd just stick to PvE
That is not why we PvP. We PvP because it's a challenge and requires teamwork. There's nothing more fun than getting together with your fleet/friends and having to work together very closely in order to beat another team that's doing the exact same to you. Ideally (and usually) it's done under entirely amicable circumstances.
Are there spats, disagreements, and unpleasantness? Sure. That's hardly a PvP-exclusive occurance. Look at all the people who get upset at people with high DPS. Why do you not see as much unpleasantness in PvE as much as PvP? Well, who are you going to direct it at? An NPC? It's a lot easier to direct your ire at an actual person, rather than a braindead AI.
Evidence of the overall amicability? Look at just how many people are willing to share their builds, help improve other's builds, initiatives like PvP boot camp, etc.
Wait... aren't you whining about being beaten in PvP, the exact same thing you just accused me (the OP) of?
Did you really expect to waltz into a PvP War Zone (Ker'rat) and not get attacked? That sounds like it's your own fault.
Yes, that's what we'd like. That's why we always share our builds, but with the caveat and disclaimer that it won't always work for someone else. You can copy/pasta someone's build, but that doesn't mean you'll be as skilled with it.
However, Cryptic has thrown balance out the window and turned it into "Who can use this cheese first?"
Overall... what is your point, exactly? You got beat in PvP once (because of your own fault) and now you think any suggestions from a PvPer are irrelevant?
Look at OdenKnight's post just above yours. He's one of the best PvEers around, does an immense amount of testing, and has excellent knowledge of the game. If he says it's broken, it's broken. He's brought logs to prove it.
That is in combination with everything else that's been said in this thread. What more do you need?
*sigh*
It's never just about PvP. That's hilariously shortsighted.
When something is over-performing in PvE that throws off the metrics. People start finishing maps and earning marks/dilithium/etc. in shorter times, and Cryptic doesn't want that. When this happens Cryptic responds, generally by simply adding hit points to NPCs and/or lowering optional timers because they need to normalize the metrics. They have an ideal completion time for content to reflect ROI in regards to time. So everything gets adjusted upward to account for shifts and outliers.
The result? Your overpowered items cease being overpowered because Cryptic compensates for it due to changes in the metrics, and now they become standard and everything else becomes junk. The consoles, effectively, become necessary for everyone to complete content at their previous time/success rate. So if your completion rate was low prior to these consoles, they will be again as the game is shifted to meet the new paradigm. We've seen this done ad nauseam as a response to increases in player power, explaining why NPCs are now just ridiculously large bags of hit points at higher difficulties, and why optional timers keep getting shorter and shorter in the queues.
So now everyone needs that gear, which basically destroys any notion of "choice". You can't choose to use something else without under-performing. So what does that mean? Well, you go right back to where you started, everyone who chooses not to those consoles get screwed, and every science console in the game, drop or crafted, that's not plasma infused has it's value drastically slashed thus effecting the market as more and more consoles become nothing more than vendor trash.
If your build is so reliant on a single broken console to reach standard times of completion then you need to fix the rest of your build, because there are people who's builds aren't using it as a crutch, and more and more of those people will see their completion times drop to levels that Cryptic doesn't want, and eventually they can't tolerate.
While people are more apt to cry foul over a nerf, it's better for the game than more hit points for enemies and shorter times for optionals, and at the end of the day those will be the only two options on the table... one might be bad for you, but the other is bad for everyone including you.
Thank you. This is excellent for providing context and some insight to the "Ugh, PvP, don't care. Don't touch my shinies!" crowd.
No problem. I'm mainly a PvEer so it's the perspective I have to approach it from.
I haven't PvPed much since launch for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I didn't like the cloak ambush/fed ball thing... there was really just the two tactics responding to each other at that point and it got boring fast. Seems like there's more to it at this point, but now I couldn't even imagine trying to catch up to where the current PvP crowd is.
The second reason is because, well, if you removed the bold part there you could be talking about Cryptic. They simply disregard it. It's hard to get invested into something and care about something into which the developers invest nothing and are, at best, ambivalent toward it.
Which, incidentally, is why it's a bit laughable that people might think the console could be nerfed due to the PvP crowd. In order for that to happen Cryptic would have to listen to the PvP crowd and care about their opinion. I don't see that happening. Really, I don't see Cryptic paying attention to people in general, ignoring them in favor of metrics over and over again. When people voice an opinion they simply write it off as the "vocal minority" and point to the almighty and all-knowing spreadsheet they use for guidance.
So yeah, I fully believe that if anything gets these consoles nerfed into conformity it will be the PvE metrics.
Its always the underperformers that cry about the so called "Overperformers". Its very simple get better like I always say. I dont ever cry nerf and if players leave because they dont wanna learn and just expect the game to change around their playstyle (Which is ridiculous) Good riddance. The people that are being stamped out are the ones people dont want in the queues with them anyways.
Using a science captain then the plasma explosion proc doesn't crit for very high numbers, normally its around the 6k-8k mark unless i get really lucky and it goes over 10k. Its only on Tacts with insane critd/crth and all the buffs tact gets where these consoles hit for considerably more. But even then they vary between the 6-8k mark and yes i've seen hits for 50000k when doing Japori. I've also seen a torpedo high yield do the same. However when pugging advanced or normal stf's with non-dps players this plasma doping/explosions is a non-issue.
Its all about PvP crying about a a console that CAN crit for high numbers and you just don't like it.
Rather than moaning about how broken it is for PvP and going about trying to get something nerfed from that angle which is what pisses me off as you're a small number of players that are not relevant to the success of the game (Cryptics own thinking which is why no development has gone into PvP).
Prove and provide unquestionable data that they are broken in PvE to Cryptic
That's exactly the problem, correct. "Normal" Crits are ok (maybe a tad bit higher than they should be, but whatever) - minus the fact that they only Crit with FAW.
It's the ultra high Crits that Tacs get that make no sense.
You have once again failed at answer - do you believe that it makes sense for the Crits to have more value than an entire player hull? Or fire off in strings that occur in less than 2 seconds that damage for over twice a player's hull?
I've already provided one example of how they're problematic in PvE: Popping an entire Cube through a single Crit alone, and then taking out the Cube next to it (that you're not even targeting) through another free FAW crit.
If your read above, happyhappyjoyjoy has provided an excellent in-depth explanation of why it's detrimental to PvE. The basic gist of it is that it greatly lowers the time it takes to complete a queue/objective/mission since you can have significantly higher sustained damage and huge bursts that pop targets. This, in turn, causes Cryptic to do things like greatly increase the amount of HP an NPC has, as a method of "time gating" things so that they take longer (because metrics).
So, as you can see, it's not just a PvP issue - when it starts wrecking with PvE balance, we end up with things like DR. And no one likes that.
I'd advise you to read the thread.
But, if you feel that I am underperforming, and choose to ignore the advice and findings of many others in this thread, please feel free to tell me exactly how to defend against these.
We have. Here are some logs that you can select and see what the consoles can do in both PvE and PvP.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0jlAmLwIV46ZEZSN1pNM0xrRU0
Snipey47a video breakdown:
Bottom line: the magnitude of the potential damage + frequency of occurrence + superior benefit for only one weapon class and one firing mode when it was advertised otherwise +100% shield bypass = Not good game mechanic.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
A single console is over-performing. It has nothing to do with the player beyond whether they choose to slot it, or they choose to lose. It isn't a question of play style, and there's nothing to learn. You buy this console and you max it, then you fire your buffs and hit FAW. You do this all day long and hope when you do that you fire off your FAW first.
Being the first to mash FAW and to randomly fire lethal amounts of damage which entirely bypass defenses and immediately kill your enemy is not a play style. It's not even a strategy. It's the "1" key on your keyboard.
This is the antithesis of not wanting to learn. Wanting to keep this is not wanting to learn. Asking for this to remain as-is simply means you want a game where there is nothing to learn. A game where there is one right answer that is blindingly simple and where victory goes to the person lucky enough to fire it off first.
The consoles aren't the only thing out of balance the whole game is broken with the bloated hull and shield hp of NPC's. Delta Rising's lack of thought put into raising difficulty levels caused the problem.
Right now all you have is high hp's, shield stripping and a few NPC's that disable systems.
Running into brick walls is neither fun or entertaining i found that out the 1st week DR hit, If they had left the hp and shields as they were at launch you'd find this game's PvE even more abandoned than now. so to have something that softens that brick wall is a ness evil.
And yes i do agree being one shot by these consoles as a player is not right. But i don't PvP therefore i don't care, i care about the part of the game i play PvE and MY ENJOYMENT (Just like you PvP and want to enjoy you're part of the game). I find PvP boring, i either Curb stomp my fleet mates , Get curb stomped if i play outside my fleet, or get stalemated which is zzzz......
Unfortunately, it seems we have enough of them around to export.
Woah, what a nice rant about "If I use underwhelming tactics, I dont actually use underwhelming tactics." Of course there is a difference in playstyle, its the different of an "pragmatic gamer", who would use anything short of exploits and bugs (note: The consoles are overperforming, but arent bugged, hence no "real" exploiting), and the so-called "honorable gamer", who only uses what he sees balanced. Its a bit like going to a gunfight with a sword, since honorable people wouldnt use guns for such an occassion.
Yes, they are a tad OP-if used right- but if you dont slot them, its your choice to be on the receiving and losing side. And that has something to do with playstyle.
Slot it, run beams, run faw... preferrably in a tac. Everybody should do this. We can all run the same ships, in the same way because to hell with diversity and balance. Am I right? Then whoever gets the RNG proc first wins!
Calling it a tad op, even in pve, is misleading.
Now I don't wish to discourage anyone from using their toys. That's not my place. If you need em, use em.
If you pvp with them, it increases your chance of success if you beam faw. This will give you a distinct advantage over your opponent for no other reason than because they're functioning out of proportion to every other use of the console. If that kind of play makes you smile, go get em! At the end of the day, it's your prerogative to decide if you need a handicap or not.
Even Captain SoB, the Chief of Cheesy Tactics, said he over-dosed on the above. He LIVES for cheesy tactics!
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Marsh, there is no question that the consoles need to be fixed with the other weapons since snipey already has proven that thru the data presented.
The data I asked praxi is the controlled experiment when comparing with the old consoles since the propaganda in this thread that it is more powerful than previous pre nerf embassy consoles. That means using the equal amount of powercreep with the current consoles using the same amount of power creep as the previous consoles.
Right now, until the data can show me in a controlled environment of an apple to apple comparison vs old consoles all this is due to the new power creep that is put in the build which amplifies the embassy console instead which werent available with the old consoles. The first thing that comes into my mind is the 4pc ico set, Anchored trait since these are +all damage commonly used at top DPS. How much does that amplify with the Top Dpsers with and without it? How much does the haste weapons affect frequency of embassy proc which wasnt available back then?
If so, Wouldnt just be the fault here is the new powercreep that amplifies the embassy consoles rather than the embassy console themselves?
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
This is the wisest post in here. Now regarding the plasma consoles, when the change from DoT to instant damage was made on trible, tests proved that one could crit even up to 100k dmg. In a target rich enviroment with bfaw it could add even 10k dps or more. Also that these would make Cryptic kinda shooting itself in the foot since they outperform greatly even the costly lobi consoles. I advocate back then for nerfs or at least a 10 sec lock/cooldown on them, same as another embassy console has (a healing one I think). Guess what... every dpser and their gramdmas overwhelmed that thread that those are not op at all... becouse they can dps with them... go figure argument there lol. It was hilarious but sad in the same time how some of the self-proclaimed experts were even lying that only 1 console would be best to use, yet.. guess what... they are staking them like pan-cakes and 3-5 of them is the "norm"...
Original STO beta tester.