The difference is, one is polite and willing to give and take where appropriate. In the end, one may come around to the other point of view or agree to disagree.
The other calls your opponent a clueless ninny (or worse) and therefore makes you right and them wrong no matter what. It invites only name calling and heated arguments that don't benefit anybody.
Any more of the latter and I'll have to consider closing the thread.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
First off...it is a Raider...they made it one a while back...pre DR. It has flanking and you can equip the cloaking device console from the Defiant/Gal-X. It has all universal except for the Commander which is Tac.
So it doesn't have any cloak, never mind a battle cloak. You have to equip a console from another ship, which you'd have to buy, and thus lose a console slot. So you lose out twice for an inferior ability. And you fully admit it doesn't have all universal consoles like a BoP. And it has lower a lower turn rate than the worst T5 BoP (range from 23-21, while the Aquarius is 20).
So... it doesn't seem much like a BoP, does it? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy if Cryptic released a T6 KDF BoP with no cloak unless you pay $20-25 extra for it and lose a console slot, and it's only a standard cloak, not battle or enhanced battle.
Also, it's not called a Raider, it's called a "Light Escort" (you even knew that) according to the ship selector and blog. They do this, no doubt, because it lacks a bunch of features of the BoP. Kinda like the BoP and Vo'Quv lack some features of the science ships and thus aren't called science ships despite being able to slot commander science abilities (the Vo'quv even has integrated subsystem targeting).
Second off...you're F-ing Starfleet...you shouldn't even have anything called a Raider...all you do is steal everything everyone else has...even the most anti-federation ship...even the name is anti-federation but they call it a *light escort*.
My level 60 KDF klingon in his T5U B'rel waiting on a T6 version would like a word with you...
The difference between you and I isn't that I'm "F-ing Starfleet"... it's that I have some perspective.
Also, since it's not called a raider, what about it makes it suitable for "raiding"? The cloak it doesn't come with? The flanking bonus which is just good for blowing stuff up, and would be perfectly suited to furthering those ends on any warship from a Negh'Var battle cruiser to a Defiant escort? How about the universal BOff slots that simply make the ship more versatile? Hmm, well... by that's useful for everything not just raiding (and really, versatility is the hallmark of Federation ships... they generally outfit their vessels to be multi-purpose, the Galaxy class was used for research, front line fighting, evacuating planets, exploration... pretty much everything)?
Raider is just a name. It's raptor versus escort.
As far as "stealing everything" goes... what uniqueness does the Federation have that the KDF has not "stolen" or are not about to "steal"? KDF has gotten access to science ships via the Varanus, a few lockboxes, and the science destroyers. They (much like the feds) have gotten access to the best of opposing side's any-ship consoles (which admittedly amounts to point defense and not a lot else from the Feds since they have that a pile of worthless trash). Traits like Reciprocity are about to be stuffed in lockboxes.
So what else is there? What special classes of federation ships, or federation-exclusive ship features would you like to "steal"...? Let's see you could have the "Raider"... but that's KDF. You could have the battle cloak... but that's a KDF/Romulan feature, in fact the Feds are the only ones who don't have it. You could take singularity powers... but that's Romulan. You could take built in sensor analysis, but you have. You could take secondary deflectors, but you have. You could take integrated subsystem targeting, but you have it.
Near as I can tell the Federation have no true raiders, and they have no warbirds. So what did they "steal"? A Caitian carrier to balance out the Gorn science ship? Lockbox consoles to balance out lockbox consoles? Universal seats...? Those were originally BoP-only, so they KDF "stole" them out of that class for cruiser/battle cruisers and raptor/escorts as much as Feds did. So it seems like the KDF has everything the UFP does since they "stole" it all already... so I guess the federation are thieves because they're the only ones with nothing unique to steal?
Or is it just that you're bitter that they were given more generic ships by Cryptic and really that it has nothing to do with any kind of "theft"? Because, I mean, as someone who plays KDF (and is still waiting on my T6 B'rel) I'm certainly not thrilled that Cryptic releases substantially more ships for the UFP than anyone else, or even everyone else combined. But you're kidding yourself if you're thinking that the Federation has "stolen" everything from the KDF and Romulans and that no one else has taken any of the (now non-existent) exclusive Fed features...
God forbid you don't have battlecloak...the breen ship doesn't even have regular cloak so consider yourself lucky.
Ah yes, god forbid the Federation not be satisfied with the single worst (non-)Raider in the game which lacks some of the most basic features of the class. Almost like god forbid the KDF not be satisfied with the single worst science vessel in the game which... doens't lack any of the features of the class. So we should all be happy we got garbage versions of the other factions ships?
The Aquarius only has a few less points of turn rate than most bops, but it has a slightly stronger hull and superior shields which would rival or surpass most escorts.
So you have your raider and it is a raider and makes a much better raider than a BoP makes a Science ship.
And the Varanus...? The Varanus makes a better science ship than the Aquarius makes a Raider, especially since the Varanus is a science ship (sure, it's a bad one, but all the features are there).
Beyond ALL this... as jermbot points out I'm not advocating for a Federation battle cloak. Or even an integrated Federation cloak on the Aquarius. I'm just saying that (as someone who flies a BoP at end game) that the Aquarius is not a "Raider", it's not a BoP substitute in any way.
Okay guys, can we try to get on track? Because, I'm going to be honest with you. If I were the kind of poster prone to making sweeping and negative judgments about entire groups of players based on limited information brought about by my own perspective.
But here's the kicker. I don't think it will ever happen... for the KDF OR the FEDs. We will always want more,
Okay now that's just being mean. Sorry, allow me a moment to get my childish need to get the last word in, even when I know it's better to just drop it and cut communications, under control.
-
Okay, the point here is, if I were the kind of poster prone to making sweeping generalizations about entire groups based on the actions of a vocal minority, and I had to form a sweeping generalization about the kind of people who still think the KDF is incomplete after all the work that's been put into them over 5 years. It would not be a sympathetic sweeping generalization. In fact, it would use words that so far only Lianthelia has uttered in this thread.
Now if those are the only people interested in trying to explain why they feel the KDF is incomplete, so be it. I can call this thread a wash and move on. I'll even generously assume the posters to date are not representative of those who feel the KDF are incomplete and let this remain a mystery but always being on the look out for someone who can explain this to me.
But maybe there is still a person out there who can explain, in concepts and reasoning, and not just in lists of demands and petty grievances, why the KDF faction still feels incomplete. If so, I'd still love to know if there is something to this.
I'm not stuck on the clothing thing, I'm trying to make this simpler for you because you've shown yourself to be incapable of focusing on the questions asked when more than one issue shows up to distract you.
Now, thank you for asserting your opinion again, but I don't need to know what you feel again because I read that in your first post, the one where you laughed at me, the half dozen people who vocally agreed with me, and the countless others who agree with me but haven't bothered to read or post in this thread, for disagreeing with you. But unless you can make a good faith effort to explain WHY disagreeing with you is laughable in this one topic, then the the stark rudeness and ineptitude of your communications will forever outweigh the explanatory benefit. Make your lack of maturity and manners worth putting up with, or even a TRIBBLE like me is going to move on.
I know that might sound harsh, but I have a feeling that blunt and plainspoken are the best way you learn.
I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea the KDF is finished. Here's the biggest issue which I find it incomplete and I'll re assert it again and compare to another game.
The story. Except for the 15 missions you start with and the Fe'Kir(or however ya spell it) it's a copy and paste of the Feds.
THE VERY SAME STORY. It's like putting out Star Wars the Old Republic and making one class up to chapter 3 like the Jedi Knight as the main class, then every other class has the two starter planets then it's just a clone copy of the Jedi Knight.
It's seriously just lame story writing and laziness(yes people have dogged me for this but it's the white elephant in the room).
Ontop of another poster brought up the Feds having to have everything every other faction has like raiders, carriers etc.
But seriously it's the story. Had a chance to rectify it in Delta rising and blew it. I mean seriously it's been re-enforced with having to do delta recruits. Again except for basically the first arc, it's all a rerun of the fed story.
Sorry to me that is not complete. How can you have a completely separate faction when you're simply doing cut and paste of THE OTHER FACTION'S STORY and call it complete?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea the KDF is finished. Here's the biggest issue which I find it incomplete and I'll re assert it again and compare to another game.
The story. Except for the 15 missions you start with and the Fe'Kir(or however ya spell it) it's a copy and paste of the Feds.
THE VERY SAME STORY. It's like putting out Star Wars the Old Republic and making one class up to chapter 3 like the Jedi Knight as the main class, then every other class has the two starter planets then it's just a clone copy of the Jedi Knight.
It's seriously just lame story writing and laziness(yes people have dogged me for this but it's the white elephant in the room).
Ontop of another poster brought up the Feds having to have everything every other faction has like raiders, carriers etc.
But seriously it's the story. Had a chance to rectify it in Delta rising and blew it. I mean seriously it's been re-enforced with having to do delta recruits. Again except for basically the first arc, it's all a rerun of the fed story.
Sorry to me that is not complete. How can you have a completely separate faction when you're simply doing cut and paste of THE OTHER FACTION'S STORY and call it complete?
Did you actually count the number of missions unique to Feds? It's not as many as you seem to think. The FEs were not written to be Fed missions they were written to be cross-faction. so they don't count as copy-pasted Fed content IMO.
But anyways, I personally think the rival house storyline was a pretty good one. It gives you a reason to do missions where you run around rural Qonos.
Anyways, though If you want Carrier to be KDF exclusive, then what are you willing to make Fed exclusive? science ships? Yeah... there's a thread about how people want more KDF science ships...
Did you actually count the number of missions unique to Feds? It's not as many as you seem to think. The FEs were not written to be Fed missions they were written to be cross-faction. so they don't count as copy-pasted Fed content IMO.
But anyways, I personally think the rival house storyline was a pretty good one. It gives you a reason to do missions where you run around rural Qonos.
Anyways, though If you want Carrier to be KDF exclusive, then what are you willing to make Fed exclusive? science ships? Yeah... there's a thread about how people want more KDF science ships...
Mark you get the 15 KDF only missions. In the middle of that you get the going back in time devidian mission FE. then you go to nimbus(outside of the romulans, no real need to be there.) Then the Romupan/Reman missions. Then you go right into doing the knock off Cardassian arc, then the borg etc up to where we are now doing basically the Fed missions with a few lines changed.
Outside the starting missions Feds get more missions and any missions you end up doing are FEs like you said which is basically a Federation mission with some slight cosmetic changes.
I mean FEs are a great example where PWE took the easy way out instead of doing much like again hate to use it but SWTOR who does a good job after chapter 3 of having 2 factions separate storyline but running at the same time so if you want the whole story gotta play both sides.
Outside of run ing the KDF and Roms to nimbus it's the same story after that and in fact if you don't play fed, you miss out on missions.
That is not complete. That's just pathetic.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
So it doesn't have any cloak, never mind a battle cloak. You have to equip a console from another ship, which you'd have to buy, and thus lose a console slot. So you lose out twice for an inferior ability. And you fully admit it doesn't have all universal consoles like a BoP. And it has lower a lower turn rate than the worst T5 BoP (range from 23-21, while the Aquarius is 20).
So... it doesn't seem much like a BoP, does it? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy if Cryptic released a T6 KDF BoP with no cloak unless you pay $20-25 extra for it and lose a console slot, and it's only a standard cloak, not battle or enhanced battle.
Also, it's not called a Raider, it's called a "Light Escort" (you even knew that) according to the ship selector and blog. They do this, no doubt, because it lacks a bunch of features of the BoP. Kinda like the BoP and Vo'Quv lack some features of the science ships and thus aren't called science ships despite being able to slot commander science abilities (the Vo'quv even has integrated subsystem targeting).
My level 60 KDF klingon in his T5U B'rel waiting on a T6 version would like a word with you...
The difference between you and I isn't that I'm "F-ing Starfleet"... it's that I have some perspective.
Also, since it's not called a raider, what about it makes it suitable for "raiding"? The cloak it doesn't come with? The flanking bonus which is just good for blowing stuff up, and would be perfectly suited to furthering those ends on any warship from a Negh'Var battle cruiser to a Defiant escort? How about the universal BOff slots that simply make the ship more versatile? Hmm, well... by that's useful for everything not just raiding (and really, versatility is the hallmark of Federation ships... they generally outfit their vessels to be multi-purpose, the Galaxy class was used for research, front line fighting, evacuating planets, exploration... pretty much everything)?
Raider is just a name. It's raptor versus escort.
As far as "stealing everything" goes... what uniqueness does the Federation have that the KDF has not "stolen" or are not about to "steal"? KDF has gotten access to science ships via the Varanus, a few lockboxes, and the science destroyers. They (much like the feds) have gotten access to the best of opposing side's any-ship consoles (which admittedly amounts to point defense and not a lot else from the Feds since they have that a pile of worthless trash). Traits like Reciprocity are about to be stuffed in lockboxes.
So what else is there? What special classes of federation ships, or federation-exclusive ship features would you like to "steal"...? Let's see you could have the "Raider"... but that's KDF. You could have the battle cloak... but that's a KDF/Romulan feature, in fact the Feds are the only ones who don't have it. You could take singularity powers... but that's Romulan. You could take built in sensor analysis, but you have. You could take secondary deflectors, but you have. You could take integrated subsystem targeting, but you have it.
Near as I can tell the Federation have no true raiders, and they have no warbirds. So what did they "steal"? A Caitian carrier to balance out the Gorn science ship? Lockbox consoles to balance out lockbox consoles? Universal seats...? Those were originally BoP-only, so they KDF "stole" them out of that class for cruiser/battle cruisers and raptor/escorts as much as Feds did. So it seems like the KDF has everything the UFP does since they "stole" it all already... so I guess the federation are thieves because they're the only ones with nothing unique to steal?
Or is it just that you're bitter that they were given more generic ships by Cryptic and really that it has nothing to do with any kind of "theft"? Because, I mean, as someone who plays KDF (and is still waiting on my T6 B'rel) I'm certainly not thrilled that Cryptic releases substantially more ships for the UFP than anyone else, or even everyone else combined. But you're kidding yourself if you're thinking that the Federation has "stolen" everything from the KDF and Romulans and that no one else has taken any of the (now non-existent) exclusive Fed features...
Ah yes, god forbid the Federation not be satisfied with the single worst (non-)Raider in the game which lacks some of the most basic features of the class. Almost like god forbid the KDF not be satisfied with the single worst science vessel in the game which... doens't lack any of the features of the class. So we should all be happy we got garbage versions of the other factions ships?
And the Varanus...? The Varanus makes a better science ship than the Aquarius makes a Raider, especially since the Varanus is a science ship (sure, it's a bad one, but all the features are there).
Beyond ALL this... as jermbot points out I'm not advocating for a Federation battle cloak. Or even an integrated Federation cloak on the Aquarius. I'm just saying that (as someone who flies a BoP at end game) that the Aquarius is not a "Raider", it's not a BoP substitute in any way.
First off...as I pointed off before...there are multiple raiders that don't even have access to standard cloak...and like all of them...other than the Cmdr Tac...they have all Uni slots (well the Kazon raider has a lt tac as well).
They called it a light escort because you and I know a raider is and sounds anti-federation...that's the only reason. Not all raiders have battle cloak (or any cloak) and not all raiders have a full Uni slot...so umm what exactly is the Aquarius missing? The Aquarius has a better turn rate than both the Kazon and Breen raiders...neither have access to cloak options. The Aquarius has a slightly weaker hull but it has the highest shield mod of any raider in the game....it has flanking.
So tell me...when compared to all Raiders and not just the KDF ones...what exactly is the Aquarius missing? It's pretty much superior to anything that isn't a BoP...but that doesn't matter to you does it? It isn't fair the KDF has something better...so we must complain and take what ever advantage the KDF has!
KDF's single true science ship is trash...where as Feds have a science ship for every single flavor they could want...from Sci heave...to tanky with lots of Engineering options, to tactical with 4 tac consoles. Sci ships with hangars...the best overall Sci ship in the game with everything including DHC availability and a Hangar.
Carriers in general...fighters used to be a exclusive perk to the KDF...but Feds cried a river and now they have Hangar for every option...from Cruisers, to Escorts, and even a Science ship...in fact the KDF haven't gotten a single ship with a Hangar since the Feds starting getting them...except for the command cruiser line...but you know what? Feds got them too!
All of the good Fed consoles are T5...have they given one of them to the KDF or RR? Nope! Yet they have given away RR consoles (or maybe 1 I don't recall) and the KDF doesn't really have any worthwhile T5 consoles to give while they were still giving away good T1-4 KDF consoles.
What exactly have the Feds given that was good? I'm serious I want to know...they surely didn't give up Science ships...the 2 the KDF and RR have access to suck. All of their good consoles are still intact. Their Escorts beat the pants off of Raptors (the ONE exception may be the T6 Raptor)
Lets look at what the KDF losts over the years
Carriers or so you don't try and twist my words and say the Atrox is the only *carrier*
Fighters
Great consoles
Battle Cruisers
Raiders
In all of that loss the KDF has not gotten one good thing in return
Heck Feds have access to the eye patch from the Klingon Academy but does the KDF have access to the 7 of 9 implants? Not the last time I checked...and I have a KDF joined trill I wanted to rp as Borg obsessed...but nope...cant even use the eye implant
Owning a Ferasan gives new options to a Caitan but Caitians don't add any options to Ferasan.
So once again I ask...where are all of these nice things Feds gave to the other factions?
P.S. just in case you didn't know...here is reference to other raiders in the game.
First off...as I pointed off before...there are multiple raiders that don't even have access to standard cloak...and like all of them...other than the Cmdr Tac...they have all Uni slots (well the Kazon raider has a lt tac as well).
And... which KDF raider lacks those features? Because I'm seeing the only other options being two non-faction ships. You can't say that the Federation have "stolen" klingon raiders then point to non-klingon ships to prove your point that the Aquarius is indeed equivalent to a KDF raider.
Isn't that what this about? Discussing the Federation in relation to the Klingon Defense Force? Beyond that, you're screaming to the high heavens about the KDF having it's uniqueness "stolen", yet you admit that the BoPs have unique features that the UFP don't have access to.
One: "You stole everything, ESPECIALLY my apple!"
Two: "You have a red apple, I don't have a red apple."
One: "You have a green apple! And other people have green apples! So you stole my apple!"
They called it a light escort because you and I know a raider is and sounds anti-federation...that's the only reason.
And they call Raptors "Raptors" and not Escorts why? Because they call different ships different things with little rhyme nor reason. Why are the Draguas, Phalanx, Varanus, Korath and Nov called "Support Vessels" and not science ships?
Names are just names. There is nothing intrinsic to the "raider" class that has anything to do with raiding. By that notion, the raptor is similar to the Escort, but the klingons don't spend a lot of time escorting things because they don't believe in promoting weakness, and believe that people should defend themselves, since that's the honorable thing. And since Raptors are just renamed Escorts, since "Escorting" doesn't sound like a "KDF-thing" it's quite obvious the KDF should not have Raptors. Awesome argument, huh?
So tell me...when compared to all Raiders and not just the KDF ones...what exactly is the Aquarius missing? It's pretty much superior to anything that isn't a BoP...but that doesn't matter to you does it? It isn't fair the KDF has something better...so we must complain and take what ever advantage the KDF has!
KDF's single true science ship is trash...where as Feds have a science ship for every single flavor they could want...from Sci heave...to tanky with lots of Engineering options, to tactical with 4 tac consoles. Sci ships with hangars...the best overall Sci ship in the game with everything including DHC availability and a Hangar.
Compared to all Science Ships, and not just the best ones, what is the KDF missing? Nothing, since they have a copy/paste of the DSSV, right?
The only Fed raider isn't a true raider (it's just a knockoff of a gimped knockoff) and it's trash but you seem to think they should feel lucky to have it, meanwhile you seem to believe that the KDF needs better science ships ("Don't you think the KDF would design better Science vessels?" - your words) despite the fact that they have several subpar ones.
If you're going to sit here and accuse the Evil Federation Thieves of being Evil Federation Thieves who have given "no a damn thing" in return you probably shouldn't acknowledge that there are in fact bad KDF science vessels just like there is one bad Fed ship that vaguely resembles a raider.
Seems like you've established that the Evil KDF Thieves are also Evil KDF Thieves and just like their Evil Federation Thief brethren both groups equally suck at thieving and steal the worst possible incarnation of what they swipe.
Congratulations. So either you need to let the "thief" thing go or... no, you just need to let it go. You also need to stop acting like the Federation has ample awesome raiders and the poor KDF has less nothing when it comes to science vessels. They each have trash, so they should either each be happy with trash, or each want better than trash.
If you want to complain their aren't enough KDF ships and the KDF needs more, especially a T6 BoP great. That's factual. If you want to act like only the UFP has taken from other factions than no, you're wrong.
You need to pick one of the following statements:
1) The KDF does not have adequate Science Vessels and needs better ones, much like the Federation does not have adequate Raiders and needs better ones, because I support faction equality though sharing out ship types.
... or...
2) The KDF does not need better Science Vessels much like the Federation does not need better Raiders, because I support factions having specific superiority within ship types.
... what you cannot choose is the option you seem to be endorsing, which is...
3) The KDF needs better Science Vessels so they can have competitive Science Ships which equal Federation ones, but the Federation cannot have better Raiders because they are a KDF thing!
Carriers in general...fighters used to be a exclusive perk to the KDF...but Feds cried a river and now they have Hangar for every option...from Cruisers, to Escorts, and even a Science ship...in fact the KDF haven't gotten a single ship with a Hangar since the Feds starting getting them...except for the command cruiser line...but you know what? Feds got them too!
Science ships in general used to be a UFP exclusive perk... but the KDF cried a river and now they have a DSSV ripoff, they have a carrier with subsystem targeting (that was added later btw, to appease calls for the Vo'Quv to be me "sciencey"), and even a science destroyer with cloaking... but you know what, Feds got one too... that didn't cloak.
T5 and T6 consoles are ship-speciifc with, what, one exception (cloaking, which most KDF ships get free of charge and without requiring a console slot)? If you're a Fed you can't even use them unless you fly the specific ship they came on. Which means no Nadion Saturation Bomb on a Galaxy Class. Much like we don't see a Fed-side subspace snare.
Congratulations, you've just proven that the UFP have no must-have consoles at lower tiers that they can equip on all of their ships. So... you've just pointed out a hole in the UFP lineup where the KDF had an advantage with, for instance, Plasmonic Leech. If your goal is to show how awesome the Federation has it, and how lousy it is to be a klingon you might not want to focus on the fact that the Feds have to rely on lockboxes to get a console they can move around that's actually worth equipping.
What exactly have the Feds given that was good? I'm serious I want to know...they surely didn't give up Science ships...the 2 the KDF and RR have access to suck. All of their good consoles are still intact. Their Escorts beat the pants off of Raptors (the ONE exception may be the T6 Raptor)
Lets look at what the KDF losts over the years
Carriers or so you don't try and twist my words and say the Atrox is the only *carrier*
Fighters
Great consoles
Battle Cruisers
Raiders
In all of that loss the KDF has not gotten one good thing in return
Let's see, Feds lost...
Several crappy any-ship consoles because that's all they had
Science ships, since they gave better science ships than they've gotten Raiders and you listed them
Cruisers which can't turn since that was Fed-exclusive prior to the Bortaqu'
They're putting Reciprocity in a lockbox so there goes the best trait everyone has been begging for
Heck Feds have access to the eye patch from the Klingon Academy but does the KDF have access to the 7 of 9 implants? Not the last time I checked...and I have a KDF joined trill I wanted to rp as Borg obsessed...but nope...cant even use the eye implant
The merc and formal wear were once Fed exclusive, and were given wholesale to the KDF because they asked. Also, the mirror universe fed hoop earrings are currently on my B'rel's science officer, so... that too. I know that since you're obviously bent out of shape about the eye patch that you'll be equally irked about the earrings, right?
Owning a Ferasan gives new options to a Caitan but Caitians don't add any options to Ferasan.
Caitians got the interesting new hair options from the Ferasans since they don't have any. You would like all the awesome extra hair options that the Caitians don't have? You already had the none free of charge. You think it's a bonus to have to buy a second species so you have customization options? How about if they remove them from the Ferasans too and you only get them there if you purchase the Caitains as well so you can experience the awesomeness that Fed catlovers got to enjoy!
As I've said, I don't give a thin red cent about Federation raiders, or lack thereof. My raider pilot is a klingon, and I'd be very happy to keep raider superiority with the red side. What I disagree with is the notion that the KDF need competitive ships in every category while the UFP absolutely should be forbidden that same thing.
So no awesome science vessel for the KDF without an awesome raider for the feds, and no awesome raider for the feds without an awesome science vessel for the KDF... or alternately, they keep the feds having trash raiders and the KDF having trash science ships and I'm just as happy.
*looks at his nonexistent dahar master coat, targ, t6 bop, t6 kdf sci ship and t6 kdf carrier, *
Can I have whatever it is your smoking?
IMO Feds proper uniform isbthe Oddy Dress, KDF proper uniform is the easily unlockable, comes woth awesome gear set, Honor Guard Uniform, you SHOULD be complaining that roms have to pay $200 or years of sub or their proper uniform, because ITS A VET REWARD?????
What if I said, I actually liked Delta Rising
These are the voyages of The U.S.S. Shadow Serpent, its ongoing mission, to enlist more misfits to its crazy crew, and to boldly destroy what has never been destroyed before
Mark you get the 15 KDF only missions. In the middle of that you get the going back in time devidian mission FE. then you go to nimbus(outside of the romulans, no real need to be there.) Then the Romupan/Reman missions. Then you go right into doing the knock off Cardassian arc, then the borg etc up to where we are now doing basically the Fed missions with a few lines changed.
Outside the starting missions Feds get more missions and any missions you end up doing are FEs like you said which is basically a Federation mission with some slight cosmetic changes.
I mean FEs are a great example where PWE took the easy way out instead of doing much like again hate to use it but SWTOR who does a good job after chapter 3 of having 2 factions separate storyline but running at the same time so if you want the whole story gotta play both sides.
Outside of run ing the KDF and Roms to nimbus it's the same story after that and in fact if you don't play fed, you miss out on missions.
That is not complete. That's just pathetic.
I don't hear you giving me a number.... So I'll give YOU a few numbers.
-=-Fed-=-
-Klingon War
14 Fed only
5 Devidian FEs (does seem to be written from a Fed POV, though it has many amusing twists when played as KDF)
Temporal Ambassador
-Wasteland
6 shared missions (written more from a Romulan POV)
-Romulan Mystery
5 Fed
6 shared(hard to pin these as written from the POV of a certian faction)
-Cardassian struggle
7 Fed
8 shared
5 FE
-Borg Advance
5 missions, cross-faction
-Breen Invasion
5 FEs
And then the newer stuff which is all cross-faction
=-=Rom=-=
-from the ashes
7 Rom only
-Allies
5 Rom only
-In Shadows
6 Rom only
Temporal Ambassador
-Wasteland
6 shared missions (written more from a Romulan POV)
-Vengeance
7 Rom
-Freedom
1 Rom
6 FEs
I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea the KDF is finished. Here's the biggest issue which I find it incomplete and I'll re assert it again and compare to another game.
The story. Except for the 15 missions you start with and the Fe'Kir(or however ya spell it) it's a copy and paste of the Feds.
THE VERY SAME STORY. It's like putting out Star Wars the Old Republic and making one class up to chapter 3 like the Jedi Knight as the main class, then every other class has the two starter planets then it's just a clone copy of the Jedi Knight.
It's seriously just lame story writing and laziness(yes people have dogged me for this but it's the white elephant in the room).
Ontop of another poster brought up the Feds having to have everything every other faction has like raiders, carriers etc.
But seriously it's the story. Had a chance to rectify it in Delta rising and blew it. I mean seriously it's been re-enforced with having to do delta recruits. Again except for basically the first arc, it's all a rerun of the fed story.
Sorry to me that is not complete. How can you have a completely separate faction when you're simply doing cut and paste of THE OTHER FACTION'S STORY and call it complete?
First off, I was pretty insulting in my last response to you, you kept your cool though and so you have my grudging respect. And an apology, I was getting testy and frustrated, a few posters in this thread turned my mood sour and I am not apologizing to them. Still though, I reacted to you in a way that was out of proportion and not conducive to having a conversation. I'm not trying to make an excuse, just trying to explain why it happened so you'll understand I'm sincere when I say that I'm sorry.
And thank you. I was about to type something fiery about this being a moved goalpost because a completely separate faction, while a laudable goal in a perfect world, is not the same thing as a complete faction. But instead, I think we've actually stumbled upon the essence of what you think would complete the KDF. To you the KDF doesn't provide a distinctive enough experience, either in ship choices/powers or in the majority of story content, and because it fails to distinguish itself, you believe it to be incomplete. Okay, I'm feeling better about this thread, I can understand operating under that standard even while I don't agree with it. I'm not going to call your opinion laughable just because I disagree with it, that would be rude.
I'm also not really interested in changing your opinion. I know, go figure, all this charm and I'm not going to try to use it to influence your opinion or show you that your opinion is wrong and my opinion is right. But I do want to make sure you understand that you what you actually want is probably never going to happen. What you actually want, unless I'm misunderstanding you greatly, is at least 15 more missions built exclusively for the KDF and about the KDF.
And these could be some great missions. I'd personally split them up amongst the non-KDF races, maybe dedicate 5 to the Gorn Hegemony getting restless with their status as a conquered people, but they stop just shy of rebellion because, for the moment, the Iconians are to big of a threat to weaken the KDF against, then 5 dedicated to the Nausicaans, a very simple plot that revolves around a jolly crew of sadistic pirates planning diversions, raiding merchants, trying to sell the stolen cargo to a disreputable Ferengi who tries to cheat them and suffers for it, and all while driving some Federation commodore mad with frustration because it's his job to protect Federation merchant traffic, and then 5 dedicated to the Orions, I'm thinking an organized crime feel for this, your boss needs you to clean up some Orion dissidents quietly, lest her allies of convenience in the KDF make the mistake of thinking she's unable to control her people, the dissident faction happen to have some valid points, maybe there's a blood feud and a need for revenge because your boss is not a nice person, or with the war on the boss Orion has been squeezing them extra hard, too bad this is an Orion plotline and whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter as much as whether they have a weapons lock on your ship. But even if not, even if you wanted them to be 15 missions for Klingons and about Klingons, a continuation of the Farh'kir plot would be welcomed. Or something based around finding Undyne infiltrators, particularly since that was the KDF's claim to fame.
There are all sorts of cool ideas about stories that can be told for, and only for, the Klingon side of the faction. They'd also flesh out the Klingon side of the story, provide character to the minor races and the Empire as a whole, allow the developers to introduce unique and interesting NPC's, alot of good can come from these missions. But they're never going to happen because it is just more cost effective to develop mission content that can be done by all factions.
So, as a substitution, what if any future faction agnostic mission development included separate quest givers, briefings, and dialogue options for the KDF, Starfleet and Romulan Defense Fleet?
Just the simplest example imaginable. There is a mission called The Kobali Front, if you don't remember it it's an officer in your respective faction's intelligence service directing you to aid the Kobali in their defense against the Vaadwaur. Once you arrive on Kobali prime you have completed the mission. All three mission givers provide the following briefing.
<Rank>, are you familiar with the Kobali? Their homeworld is under attack by the Vaadwaur and they've requested your aid.
I informed the head of their military that you would render them support on the ground. Their city has been under siege for months and cannot take much more.
Please, do what you can on Kobali Prime to stop the Vaadwaur from destroying the Kobali.
Well, what if they took five minutes more to write three versions of this briefing.
Klingon
<Rank>, are you familiar with the Kobali? They beg us for aid because they are too weak to protect their homeworld from a Vaadwaur assault.
Normally such mewling would only convince us that the Kobali are deserving of nothing but our conquest, however, the Vaadwaur have shown themselves to be a challenge to our interests and so it is to our advantage to protect these Kobali, as a weapon against the Vaadwaur for now.
Do what you can to hurt the Vaadwaur on Kobali prime.
Romulan
<Rank>, are you familiar with the Kobali? Their homeworld is under attack by the Vaadwaur and they've requested any aid.
This represents a unique opportunity to gather our own Delta Quadrant intelligence, rather than being limited to what Starfleet Intelligence has chosen to reveal to us.
Go to Kobali Prime, aid the Kobali on the ground for as long as it's productive and safe, and learn everything you can. About the Kobali, the Vaadwaur, everything.
and finally
Federation
<Rank>, are you familiar with the Kobali? Their homework is under attack and they've requested our aid.
Their commander has been informed that you will render support while on the ground.
Medical and command logs from the Voyager are being uploaded to your command terminal now, review as you can while en route and know that you are to be on your best behavior. While they are warp capable, the spirit of the prime directive still encourages us to approach their culture, including their unique method of reproduction, with an open mind and respect. And they would make a valuable member of any coalition we seek to form in the Delta Quadrant.
And bam, same mission, same results, and leads to the same next part of the story, but by adding some faction specific flavor we make clear that each of the three factions is going in with completely different goals and philosophies in mind.
First off, I was pretty insulting in my last response to you, you kept your cool though and so you have my grudging respect. And an apology, I was getting testy and frustrated, a few posters in this thread turned my mood sour and I am not apologizing to them. Still though, I reacted to you in a way that was out of proportion and not conducive to having a conversation. I'm not trying to make an excuse, just trying to explain why it happened so you'll understand I'm sincere when I say that I'm sorry.
And thank you. I was about to type something fiery about this being a moved goalpost because a completely separate faction, while a laudable goal in a perfect world, is not the same thing as a complete faction. But instead, I think we've actually stumbled upon the essence of what you think would complete the KDF. To you the KDF doesn't provide a distinctive enough experience, either in ship choices/powers or in the majority of story content, and because it fails to distinguish itself, you believe it to be incomplete. Okay, I'm feeling better about this thread, I can understand operating under that standard even while I don't agree with it. I'm not going to call your opinion laughable just because I disagree with it, that would be rude.
I'm also not really interested in changing your opinion. I know, go figure, all this charm and I'm not going to try to use it to influence your opinion or show you that your opinion is wrong and my opinion is right. But I do want to make sure you understand that you what you actually want is probably never going to happen. What you actually want, unless I'm misunderstanding you greatly, is at least 15 more missions built exclusively for the KDF and about the KDF.
And these could be some great missions. I'd personally split them up amongst the non-KDF races, maybe dedicate 5 to the Gorn Hegemony getting restless with their status as a conquered people, but they stop just shy of rebellion because, for the moment, the Iconians are to big of a threat to weaken the KDF against, then 5 dedicated to the Nausicaans, a very simple plot that revolves around a jolly crew of sadistic pirates planning diversions, raiding merchants, trying to sell the stolen cargo to a disreputable Ferengi who tries to cheat them and suffers for it, and all while driving some Federation commodore mad with frustration because it's his job to protect Federation merchant traffic, and then 5 dedicated to the Orions, I'm thinking an organized crime feel for this, your boss needs you to clean up some Orion dissidents quietly, lest her allies of convenience in the KDF make the mistake of thinking she's unable to control her people, the dissident faction happen to have some valid points, maybe there's a blood feud and a need for revenge because your boss is not a nice person, or with the war on the boss Orion has been squeezing them extra hard, too bad this is an Orion plotline and whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter as much as whether they have a weapons lock on your ship. But even if not, even if you wanted them to be 15 missions for Klingons and about Klingons, a continuation of the Farh'kir plot would be welcomed. Or something based around finding Undyne infiltrators, particularly since that was the KDF's claim to fame.
There are all sorts of cool ideas about stories that can be told for, and only for, the Klingon side of the faction. They'd also flesh out the Klingon side of the story, provide character to the minor races and the Empire as a whole, allow the developers to introduce unique and interesting NPC's, alot of good can come from these missions. But they're never going to happen because it is just more cost effective to develop mission content that can be done by all factions.
So, as a substitution, what if any future faction agnostic mission development included separate quest givers, briefings, and dialogue options for the KDF, Starfleet and Romulan Defense Fleet?
Just the simplest example imaginable. There is a mission called The Kobali Front, if you don't remember it it's an officer in your respective faction's intelligence service directing you to aid the Kobali in their defense against the Vaadwaur. Once you arrive on Kobali prime you have completed the mission. All three mission givers provide the following briefing.
Well, what if they took five minutes more to write three versions of this briefing.
Klingon
Romulan
and finally
Federation
And bam, same mission, same results, and leads to the same next part of the story, but by adding some faction specific flavor we make clear that each of the three factions is going in with completely different goals and philosophies in mind.
Love the Klingon one. Go in, stomp them all. Just don't stomp the Kobali as hard as you do the Vaadwaur.
Yeah, if they radically revamp the Cardassian arc, they'll probably make it all or almost all cross faction.
Which imho is actually the wrong way to go. They should be opening up and having MORE faction specific stuff to add more spice and flavor to the story, not pruning it back. Hence my major beef with the game.
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Which the Feds are likely to lose as part of the revamp, since cryptic said they won't be making faction specific content anymore.
They stopped making Faction-specific missions, story arcs with LOR. LOR was the last for that kind of stuff:
Romulan Republic early campaign for the brand new (at the time) Subfaction.
Revamped KDF Tutorial with low level missions. That Tutorial and low level missions was important because finally, a new player could immediately roll a Lv1 KDF character. Prior to LOR, a player needed to level a Fed character first before he could play KDF. When STO launched, you needed to have a Lv5 Fed then KDF unlocks. Later Cryptic changed that to Lv20 before KDF was unlocked.
After LOR, Faction-specific missions no longer were being made. Everything is done with the Federation-like POV with some minor words replaced:
Replace the words "Admiral" for "General" or "Dahar Master" now and it's a KDF mission all the sudden.
Randomly insert "Honor" and "Glory" somewhere in the dialogue and it's now a KDF mission. Better yet, Bonus Points if you use "Honor" and "Glory" in the same sentence!
For the Romulan Republic, they don't even have to do that because they use the same term, "Admiral" as Starfleet does. But randomly inserting "Republic" somewhere is Bonus Points.
They stopped making Faction-specific missions, story arcs with LOR. LOR was the last for that kind of stuff:
Romulan Republic early campaign for the brand new (at the time) Subfaction.
Revamped KDF Tutorial with low level missions. That Tutorial and low level missions was important because finally, a new player could immediately roll a Lv1 KDF character. Prior to LOR, a player needed to level a Fed character first before he could play KDF. When STO launched, you needed to have a Lv5 Fed then KDF unlocks. Later Cryptic changed that to Lv20 before KDF was unlocked.
After LOR, Faction-specific missions no longer were being made. Everything is done with the Federation-like POV with some minor words replaced:
Replace the words "Admiral" for "General" or "Dahar Master" now and it's a KDF mission all the sudden.
Randomly insert "Honor" and "Glory" somewhere in the dialogue and it's now a KDF mission. Better yet, Bonus Points if you use "Honor" and "Glory" in the same sentence!
For the Romulan Republic, they don't even have to do that because they use the same term, "Admiral" as Starfleet does. But randomly inserting "Republic" somewhere is Bonus Points.
Actually once you get in to the shared stories. Honor and Glory aren't even said. Unless its by some random NPC onthe board, usually after you save them. Mostly all you get is "Qapla'" and rank.
Comments
Debate is good.
Personal attacks on other people's opinions, bad.
The difference is, one is polite and willing to give and take where appropriate. In the end, one may come around to the other point of view or agree to disagree.
The other calls your opponent a clueless ninny (or worse) and therefore makes you right and them wrong no matter what. It invites only name calling and heated arguments that don't benefit anybody.
Any more of the latter and I'll have to consider closing the thread.
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So it doesn't have any cloak, never mind a battle cloak. You have to equip a console from another ship, which you'd have to buy, and thus lose a console slot. So you lose out twice for an inferior ability. And you fully admit it doesn't have all universal consoles like a BoP. And it has lower a lower turn rate than the worst T5 BoP (range from 23-21, while the Aquarius is 20).
So... it doesn't seem much like a BoP, does it? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy if Cryptic released a T6 KDF BoP with no cloak unless you pay $20-25 extra for it and lose a console slot, and it's only a standard cloak, not battle or enhanced battle.
Also, it's not called a Raider, it's called a "Light Escort" (you even knew that) according to the ship selector and blog. They do this, no doubt, because it lacks a bunch of features of the BoP. Kinda like the BoP and Vo'Quv lack some features of the science ships and thus aren't called science ships despite being able to slot commander science abilities (the Vo'quv even has integrated subsystem targeting).
My level 60 KDF klingon in his T5U B'rel waiting on a T6 version would like a word with you...
The difference between you and I isn't that I'm "F-ing Starfleet"... it's that I have some perspective.
Also, since it's not called a raider, what about it makes it suitable for "raiding"? The cloak it doesn't come with? The flanking bonus which is just good for blowing stuff up, and would be perfectly suited to furthering those ends on any warship from a Negh'Var battle cruiser to a Defiant escort? How about the universal BOff slots that simply make the ship more versatile? Hmm, well... by that's useful for everything not just raiding (and really, versatility is the hallmark of Federation ships... they generally outfit their vessels to be multi-purpose, the Galaxy class was used for research, front line fighting, evacuating planets, exploration... pretty much everything)?
Raider is just a name. It's raptor versus escort.
As far as "stealing everything" goes... what uniqueness does the Federation have that the KDF has not "stolen" or are not about to "steal"? KDF has gotten access to science ships via the Varanus, a few lockboxes, and the science destroyers. They (much like the feds) have gotten access to the best of opposing side's any-ship consoles (which admittedly amounts to point defense and not a lot else from the Feds since they have that a pile of worthless trash). Traits like Reciprocity are about to be stuffed in lockboxes.
So what else is there? What special classes of federation ships, or federation-exclusive ship features would you like to "steal"...? Let's see you could have the "Raider"... but that's KDF. You could have the battle cloak... but that's a KDF/Romulan feature, in fact the Feds are the only ones who don't have it. You could take singularity powers... but that's Romulan. You could take built in sensor analysis, but you have. You could take secondary deflectors, but you have. You could take integrated subsystem targeting, but you have it.
Near as I can tell the Federation have no true raiders, and they have no warbirds. So what did they "steal"? A Caitian carrier to balance out the Gorn science ship? Lockbox consoles to balance out lockbox consoles? Universal seats...? Those were originally BoP-only, so they KDF "stole" them out of that class for cruiser/battle cruisers and raptor/escorts as much as Feds did. So it seems like the KDF has everything the UFP does since they "stole" it all already... so I guess the federation are thieves because they're the only ones with nothing unique to steal?
Or is it just that you're bitter that they were given more generic ships by Cryptic and really that it has nothing to do with any kind of "theft"? Because, I mean, as someone who plays KDF (and is still waiting on my T6 B'rel) I'm certainly not thrilled that Cryptic releases substantially more ships for the UFP than anyone else, or even everyone else combined. But you're kidding yourself if you're thinking that the Federation has "stolen" everything from the KDF and Romulans and that no one else has taken any of the (now non-existent) exclusive Fed features...
Ah yes, god forbid the Federation not be satisfied with the single worst (non-)Raider in the game which lacks some of the most basic features of the class. Almost like god forbid the KDF not be satisfied with the single worst science vessel in the game which... doens't lack any of the features of the class. So we should all be happy we got garbage versions of the other factions ships?
And the Varanus...? The Varanus makes a better science ship than the Aquarius makes a Raider, especially since the Varanus is a science ship (sure, it's a bad one, but all the features are there).
Beyond ALL this... as jermbot points out I'm not advocating for a Federation battle cloak. Or even an integrated Federation cloak on the Aquarius. I'm just saying that (as someone who flies a BoP at end game) that the Aquarius is not a "Raider", it's not a BoP substitute in any way.
Yeah like that.
Or that.
Okay now that's just being mean. Sorry, allow me a moment to get my childish need to get the last word in, even when I know it's better to just drop it and cut communications, under control.
-
Okay, the point here is, if I were the kind of poster prone to making sweeping generalizations about entire groups based on the actions of a vocal minority, and I had to form a sweeping generalization about the kind of people who still think the KDF is incomplete after all the work that's been put into them over 5 years. It would not be a sympathetic sweeping generalization. In fact, it would use words that so far only Lianthelia has uttered in this thread.
Now if those are the only people interested in trying to explain why they feel the KDF is incomplete, so be it. I can call this thread a wash and move on. I'll even generously assume the posters to date are not representative of those who feel the KDF are incomplete and let this remain a mystery but always being on the look out for someone who can explain this to me.
But maybe there is still a person out there who can explain, in concepts and reasoning, and not just in lists of demands and petty grievances, why the KDF faction still feels incomplete. If so, I'd still love to know if there is something to this.
I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea the KDF is finished. Here's the biggest issue which I find it incomplete and I'll re assert it again and compare to another game.
The story. Except for the 15 missions you start with and the Fe'Kir(or however ya spell it) it's a copy and paste of the Feds.
THE VERY SAME STORY. It's like putting out Star Wars the Old Republic and making one class up to chapter 3 like the Jedi Knight as the main class, then every other class has the two starter planets then it's just a clone copy of the Jedi Knight.
It's seriously just lame story writing and laziness(yes people have dogged me for this but it's the white elephant in the room).
Ontop of another poster brought up the Feds having to have everything every other faction has like raiders, carriers etc.
But seriously it's the story. Had a chance to rectify it in Delta rising and blew it. I mean seriously it's been re-enforced with having to do delta recruits. Again except for basically the first arc, it's all a rerun of the fed story.
Sorry to me that is not complete. How can you have a completely separate faction when you're simply doing cut and paste of THE OTHER FACTION'S STORY and call it complete?
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But anyways, I personally think the rival house storyline was a pretty good one. It gives you a reason to do missions where you run around rural Qonos.
Anyways, though If you want Carrier to be KDF exclusive, then what are you willing to make Fed exclusive? science ships? Yeah... there's a thread about how people want more KDF science ships...
My character Tsin'xing
Mark you get the 15 KDF only missions. In the middle of that you get the going back in time devidian mission FE. then you go to nimbus(outside of the romulans, no real need to be there.) Then the Romupan/Reman missions. Then you go right into doing the knock off Cardassian arc, then the borg etc up to where we are now doing basically the Fed missions with a few lines changed.
Outside the starting missions Feds get more missions and any missions you end up doing are FEs like you said which is basically a Federation mission with some slight cosmetic changes.
I mean FEs are a great example where PWE took the easy way out instead of doing much like again hate to use it but SWTOR who does a good job after chapter 3 of having 2 factions separate storyline but running at the same time so if you want the whole story gotta play both sides.
Outside of run ing the KDF and Roms to nimbus it's the same story after that and in fact if you don't play fed, you miss out on missions.
That is not complete. That's just pathetic.
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First off...as I pointed off before...there are multiple raiders that don't even have access to standard cloak...and like all of them...other than the Cmdr Tac...they have all Uni slots (well the Kazon raider has a lt tac as well).
They called it a light escort because you and I know a raider is and sounds anti-federation...that's the only reason. Not all raiders have battle cloak (or any cloak) and not all raiders have a full Uni slot...so umm what exactly is the Aquarius missing? The Aquarius has a better turn rate than both the Kazon and Breen raiders...neither have access to cloak options. The Aquarius has a slightly weaker hull but it has the highest shield mod of any raider in the game....it has flanking.
So tell me...when compared to all Raiders and not just the KDF ones...what exactly is the Aquarius missing? It's pretty much superior to anything that isn't a BoP...but that doesn't matter to you does it? It isn't fair the KDF has something better...so we must complain and take what ever advantage the KDF has!
KDF's single true science ship is trash...where as Feds have a science ship for every single flavor they could want...from Sci heave...to tanky with lots of Engineering options, to tactical with 4 tac consoles. Sci ships with hangars...the best overall Sci ship in the game with everything including DHC availability and a Hangar.
Carriers in general...fighters used to be a exclusive perk to the KDF...but Feds cried a river and now they have Hangar for every option...from Cruisers, to Escorts, and even a Science ship...in fact the KDF haven't gotten a single ship with a Hangar since the Feds starting getting them...except for the command cruiser line...but you know what? Feds got them too!
All of the good Fed consoles are T5...have they given one of them to the KDF or RR? Nope! Yet they have given away RR consoles (or maybe 1 I don't recall) and the KDF doesn't really have any worthwhile T5 consoles to give while they were still giving away good T1-4 KDF consoles.
What exactly have the Feds given that was good? I'm serious I want to know...they surely didn't give up Science ships...the 2 the KDF and RR have access to suck. All of their good consoles are still intact. Their Escorts beat the pants off of Raptors (the ONE exception may be the T6 Raptor)
Lets look at what the KDF losts over the years
Carriers or so you don't try and twist my words and say the Atrox is the only *carrier*
Fighters
Great consoles
Battle Cruisers
Raiders
In all of that loss the KDF has not gotten one good thing in return
Heck Feds have access to the eye patch from the Klingon Academy but does the KDF have access to the 7 of 9 implants? Not the last time I checked...and I have a KDF joined trill I wanted to rp as Borg obsessed...but nope...cant even use the eye implant
Owning a Ferasan gives new options to a Caitan but Caitians don't add any options to Ferasan.
So once again I ask...where are all of these nice things Feds gave to the other factions?
P.S. just in case you didn't know...here is reference to other raiders in the game.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Breen_Plesh_Brek_Heavy_Raider
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Kazon_Heavy_Raider
And... which KDF raider lacks those features? Because I'm seeing the only other options being two non-faction ships. You can't say that the Federation have "stolen" klingon raiders then point to non-klingon ships to prove your point that the Aquarius is indeed equivalent to a KDF raider.
Isn't that what this about? Discussing the Federation in relation to the Klingon Defense Force? Beyond that, you're screaming to the high heavens about the KDF having it's uniqueness "stolen", yet you admit that the BoPs have unique features that the UFP don't have access to.
One: "You stole everything, ESPECIALLY my apple!"
Two: "You have a red apple, I don't have a red apple."
One: "You have a green apple! And other people have green apples! So you stole my apple!"
... doesn't work. Sorry.
And they call Raptors "Raptors" and not Escorts why? Because they call different ships different things with little rhyme nor reason. Why are the Draguas, Phalanx, Varanus, Korath and Nov called "Support Vessels" and not science ships?
Names are just names. There is nothing intrinsic to the "raider" class that has anything to do with raiding. By that notion, the raptor is similar to the Escort, but the klingons don't spend a lot of time escorting things because they don't believe in promoting weakness, and believe that people should defend themselves, since that's the honorable thing. And since Raptors are just renamed Escorts, since "Escorting" doesn't sound like a "KDF-thing" it's quite obvious the KDF should not have Raptors. Awesome argument, huh?
Compared to all Science Ships, and not just the best ones, what is the KDF missing? Nothing, since they have a copy/paste of the DSSV, right?
The only Fed raider isn't a true raider (it's just a knockoff of a gimped knockoff) and it's trash but you seem to think they should feel lucky to have it, meanwhile you seem to believe that the KDF needs better science ships ("Don't you think the KDF would design better Science vessels?" - your words) despite the fact that they have several subpar ones.
If you're going to sit here and accuse the Evil Federation Thieves of being Evil Federation Thieves who have given "no a damn thing" in return you probably shouldn't acknowledge that there are in fact bad KDF science vessels just like there is one bad Fed ship that vaguely resembles a raider.
Seems like you've established that the Evil KDF Thieves are also Evil KDF Thieves and just like their Evil Federation Thief brethren both groups equally suck at thieving and steal the worst possible incarnation of what they swipe.
Congratulations. So either you need to let the "thief" thing go or... no, you just need to let it go. You also need to stop acting like the Federation has ample awesome raiders and the poor KDF has less nothing when it comes to science vessels. They each have trash, so they should either each be happy with trash, or each want better than trash.
If you want to complain their aren't enough KDF ships and the KDF needs more, especially a T6 BoP great. That's factual. If you want to act like only the UFP has taken from other factions than no, you're wrong.
You need to pick one of the following statements:
1) The KDF does not have adequate Science Vessels and needs better ones, much like the Federation does not have adequate Raiders and needs better ones, because I support faction equality though sharing out ship types.
... or...
2) The KDF does not need better Science Vessels much like the Federation does not need better Raiders, because I support factions having specific superiority within ship types.
... what you cannot choose is the option you seem to be endorsing, which is...
3) The KDF needs better Science Vessels so they can have competitive Science Ships which equal Federation ones, but the Federation cannot have better Raiders because they are a KDF thing!
Science ships in general used to be a UFP exclusive perk... but the KDF cried a river and now they have a DSSV ripoff, they have a carrier with subsystem targeting (that was added later btw, to appease calls for the Vo'Quv to be me "sciencey"), and even a science destroyer with cloaking... but you know what, Feds got one too... that didn't cloak.
T5 and T6 consoles are ship-speciifc with, what, one exception (cloaking, which most KDF ships get free of charge and without requiring a console slot)? If you're a Fed you can't even use them unless you fly the specific ship they came on. Which means no Nadion Saturation Bomb on a Galaxy Class. Much like we don't see a Fed-side subspace snare.
Congratulations, you've just proven that the UFP have no must-have consoles at lower tiers that they can equip on all of their ships. So... you've just pointed out a hole in the UFP lineup where the KDF had an advantage with, for instance, Plasmonic Leech. If your goal is to show how awesome the Federation has it, and how lousy it is to be a klingon you might not want to focus on the fact that the Feds have to rely on lockboxes to get a console they can move around that's actually worth equipping.
Let's see, Feds lost...
Several crappy any-ship consoles because that's all they had
Science ships, since they gave better science ships than they've gotten Raiders and you listed them
Cruisers which can't turn since that was Fed-exclusive prior to the Bortaqu'
They're putting Reciprocity in a lockbox so there goes the best trait everyone has been begging for
The merc and formal wear were once Fed exclusive, and were given wholesale to the KDF because they asked. Also, the mirror universe fed hoop earrings are currently on my B'rel's science officer, so... that too. I know that since you're obviously bent out of shape about the eye patch that you'll be equally irked about the earrings, right?
Caitians got the interesting new hair options from the Ferasans since they don't have any. You would like all the awesome extra hair options that the Caitians don't have? You already had the none free of charge. You think it's a bonus to have to buy a second species so you have customization options? How about if they remove them from the Ferasans too and you only get them there if you purchase the Caitains as well so you can experience the awesomeness that Fed catlovers got to enjoy!
As I've said, I don't give a thin red cent about Federation raiders, or lack thereof. My raider pilot is a klingon, and I'd be very happy to keep raider superiority with the red side. What I disagree with is the notion that the KDF need competitive ships in every category while the UFP absolutely should be forbidden that same thing.
So no awesome science vessel for the KDF without an awesome raider for the feds, and no awesome raider for the feds without an awesome science vessel for the KDF... or alternately, they keep the feds having trash raiders and the KDF having trash science ships and I'm just as happy.
IMO Feds proper uniform isbthe Oddy Dress, KDF proper uniform is the easily unlockable, comes woth awesome gear set, Honor Guard Uniform, you SHOULD be complaining that roms have to pay $200 or years of sub or their proper uniform, because ITS A VET REWARD?????
-=-Fed-=-
-Klingon War
14 Fed only
5 Devidian FEs (does seem to be written from a Fed POV, though it has many amusing twists when played as KDF)
Temporal Ambassador
-Wasteland
6 shared missions (written more from a Romulan POV)
-Romulan Mystery
5 Fed
6 shared(hard to pin these as written from the POV of a certian faction)
-Cardassian struggle
7 Fed
8 shared
5 FE
-Borg Advance
5 missions, cross-faction
-Breen Invasion
5 FEs
And then the newer stuff which is all cross-faction
-=-KDF-=-
-Empire
5 KDF
-Warzone
5 KDF
-Spectres
5 Devidian FEs
-Fek'lhri Return
4 KDF
-Vigilance
3 KDF
Temporal Ambassador
-Wasteland
6 shared missions (written more from a Romulan POV)
-Romulan Mystery
6 FEs
-Dominion Domination
8 shared
5 FEs
-Borg Advance
5 missions, cross-faction
-Breen Invasion
5 FEs
soo 28 Fed vs 17 KDF
=-=Rom=-=
-from the ashes
7 Rom only
-Allies
5 Rom only
-In Shadows
6 Rom only
Temporal Ambassador
-Wasteland
6 shared missions (written more from a Romulan POV)
-Vengeance
7 Rom
-Freedom
1 Rom
6 FEs
-Spectres
1 Rom?
5 FEs
-Cardassian Struggle
8 shared
5 FEs
-Borg Advance
5 missions, cross-faction
-Breen Invasion
5 FEs
so 28 Fed, 17 KDF, 27 Rom. Yeah,,, Feds get 11 more 7 of which are part of the Cardassian arc....
My character Tsin'xing
Because a completely different version of Bog, Card, etc for each faction is such an efficient use of their time.
My character Tsin'xing
First off, I was pretty insulting in my last response to you, you kept your cool though and so you have my grudging respect. And an apology, I was getting testy and frustrated, a few posters in this thread turned my mood sour and I am not apologizing to them. Still though, I reacted to you in a way that was out of proportion and not conducive to having a conversation. I'm not trying to make an excuse, just trying to explain why it happened so you'll understand I'm sincere when I say that I'm sorry.
And thank you. I was about to type something fiery about this being a moved goalpost because a completely separate faction, while a laudable goal in a perfect world, is not the same thing as a complete faction. But instead, I think we've actually stumbled upon the essence of what you think would complete the KDF. To you the KDF doesn't provide a distinctive enough experience, either in ship choices/powers or in the majority of story content, and because it fails to distinguish itself, you believe it to be incomplete. Okay, I'm feeling better about this thread, I can understand operating under that standard even while I don't agree with it. I'm not going to call your opinion laughable just because I disagree with it, that would be rude.
I'm also not really interested in changing your opinion. I know, go figure, all this charm and I'm not going to try to use it to influence your opinion or show you that your opinion is wrong and my opinion is right. But I do want to make sure you understand that you what you actually want is probably never going to happen. What you actually want, unless I'm misunderstanding you greatly, is at least 15 more missions built exclusively for the KDF and about the KDF.
And these could be some great missions. I'd personally split them up amongst the non-KDF races, maybe dedicate 5 to the Gorn Hegemony getting restless with their status as a conquered people, but they stop just shy of rebellion because, for the moment, the Iconians are to big of a threat to weaken the KDF against, then 5 dedicated to the Nausicaans, a very simple plot that revolves around a jolly crew of sadistic pirates planning diversions, raiding merchants, trying to sell the stolen cargo to a disreputable Ferengi who tries to cheat them and suffers for it, and all while driving some Federation commodore mad with frustration because it's his job to protect Federation merchant traffic, and then 5 dedicated to the Orions, I'm thinking an organized crime feel for this, your boss needs you to clean up some Orion dissidents quietly, lest her allies of convenience in the KDF make the mistake of thinking she's unable to control her people, the dissident faction happen to have some valid points, maybe there's a blood feud and a need for revenge because your boss is not a nice person, or with the war on the boss Orion has been squeezing them extra hard, too bad this is an Orion plotline and whether they are right or wrong doesn't matter as much as whether they have a weapons lock on your ship. But even if not, even if you wanted them to be 15 missions for Klingons and about Klingons, a continuation of the Farh'kir plot would be welcomed. Or something based around finding Undyne infiltrators, particularly since that was the KDF's claim to fame.
There are all sorts of cool ideas about stories that can be told for, and only for, the Klingon side of the faction. They'd also flesh out the Klingon side of the story, provide character to the minor races and the Empire as a whole, allow the developers to introduce unique and interesting NPC's, alot of good can come from these missions. But they're never going to happen because it is just more cost effective to develop mission content that can be done by all factions.
So, as a substitution, what if any future faction agnostic mission development included separate quest givers, briefings, and dialogue options for the KDF, Starfleet and Romulan Defense Fleet?
Just the simplest example imaginable. There is a mission called The Kobali Front, if you don't remember it it's an officer in your respective faction's intelligence service directing you to aid the Kobali in their defense against the Vaadwaur. Once you arrive on Kobali prime you have completed the mission. All three mission givers provide the following briefing.
Well, what if they took five minutes more to write three versions of this briefing.
Klingon
Romulan
and finally
Federation
And bam, same mission, same results, and leads to the same next part of the story, but by adding some faction specific flavor we make clear that each of the three factions is going in with completely different goals and philosophies in mind.
Love the Klingon one. Go in, stomp them all. Just don't stomp the Kobali as hard as you do the Vaadwaur.
Which imho is actually the wrong way to go. They should be opening up and having MORE faction specific stuff to add more spice and flavor to the story, not pruning it back. Hence my major beef with the game.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
They stopped making Faction-specific missions, story arcs with LOR. LOR was the last for that kind of stuff:
Romulan Republic early campaign for the brand new (at the time) Subfaction.
Revamped KDF Tutorial with low level missions. That Tutorial and low level missions was important because finally, a new player could immediately roll a Lv1 KDF character. Prior to LOR, a player needed to level a Fed character first before he could play KDF. When STO launched, you needed to have a Lv5 Fed then KDF unlocks. Later Cryptic changed that to Lv20 before KDF was unlocked.
After LOR, Faction-specific missions no longer were being made. Everything is done with the Federation-like POV with some minor words replaced:
Replace the words "Admiral" for "General" or "Dahar Master" now and it's a KDF mission all the sudden.
Randomly insert "Honor" and "Glory" somewhere in the dialogue and it's now a KDF mission. Better yet, Bonus Points if you use "Honor" and "Glory" in the same sentence!
For the Romulan Republic, they don't even have to do that because they use the same term, "Admiral" as Starfleet does. But randomly inserting "Republic" somewhere is Bonus Points.
Actually once you get in to the shared stories. Honor and Glory aren't even said. Unless its by some random NPC onthe board, usually after you save them. Mostly all you get is "Qapla'" and rank.