You forget there's a revamp coming for the Fek'ihri story arc. Just like the character revamps. Though, like always. They aren't atually saying when its coming.
Sad part is, already been revamped once.
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Yes actually I have worked some in a corporate culture. And yes I do know about deadlines and yadda yadda yadda.
Point is it IS laziness at some level when they could of just said "hey we're slowing down to offer up something new and different, please bear with us as we make changes."
How many times has that been done in gaming? Too many times to count. Headshed, devs whoever ya want to say took the easy way out. Simple pure laziness.
Those choices are not in the hands of the devs. Calling them lazy is like me calling you lazy if you answer your phone before your email because company policy says you need to. You COULD slow down and get that email done before the person hangs up, but if you do it and miss the call, you could get fired. That doesn't make you lazy. It means you are doing your job.
And before you start in about devs being able to do more, just follow some of their twitter feeds - some posts coming in at 11 PM local time because they wanted to do some extra work for us. These are not lazy people, and it's frankly offensive to say they are.
that arc has never been revamped, it was added in ages ago, as part of the early stage Klink revamp, but its never been revamped itself.
Could of swore it had a pass over atleast once...
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Those choices are not in the hands of the devs. Calling them lazy is like me calling you lazy if you answer your phone before your email because company policy says you need to. You COULD slow down and get that email done before the person hangs up, but if you do it and miss the call, you could get fired. That doesn't make you lazy. It means you are doing your job.
And before you start in about devs being able to do more, just follow some of their twitter feeds - some posts coming in at 11 PM local time because they wanted to do some extra work for us. These are not lazy people, and it's frankly offensive to say they are.
Umm taking the easy way out IS lazy either by the devs or their superiors. Probably more than likely their superiors who want it out fast as possible without any thought of the consequences.
Frankly it's asinine how they did it. And I am calling it like it is. Pure laziness to simply copy and past most of the fed missions and call it done.
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Why do I feel they are necessary. Let me give you an Example. It's like having a star fleet uniform without any combadges.
Or missing a type of phaser. I mean devil is in the details. Lets face it progression wise the Feds have the easiest time because at EVERY tier they have a ship for each profession. KDF doesn't, and Roms sure as hell don't.
I mean we have the Dahar master, but no coat which was a big thing like getting a black belt in Karate. It's like "OK you're a black belt, but you're not getting the belt."
Say what?
And while the bat'leth is cool, how bout Gin'Tak Spear, or Mik'leth or any of the other blades many(including myself) have literally been telling PWE/Cryptic we want and we'd even shell out Zen to do it.
Or the fact up until the Dyson Destroyers came out the KDF didn't have a single decent science ship available. And even then it was here for an event then gone then you have to shell out Zen to get one.
I mean there are a whole HEAP of problems that have yet to be addressed and likely will not. So no, KDF faction let alone Romulan....eh promised not to go there sorry.
But lets face it. Yes everybody wants to be Picard, or Kirk, but for heaven's sake lets balance out the factions we have before there's even talk about adding yet another which will be likely to follow the romulans.
And hell how bout some different stories! Not just 1 and done for 3 factions.
I even made a post about how the devs missed a GOLDEN oppertunity to have 3 separate stories one for KDF, one for Fed one for ROM that each covered a portion of the delta story but would of tied together which would of made it FUN and you'd HAVE to do atleast 1 toon per story to get the whole thing.
Instead again 1 and done. And they are STILL doing it in the Iconian war. Quite sad, lazy and pathetic story writing.
This is not my actual answer, so please read atleast the second paragraph before you even start to respond. But, KDF uniforms have combadges. And they've never added a useable photonic tommy gun despite it being shown off in cannon as much as the Gin'Tak spear. There is no Gamma Quadrant recruitment Doff on the bridge of my JHAS. No kilts either, how am I supposed to be a scottsman with no kilt? Which is why examples of three arbitrary things are not as good as a rational standard.
The lack of these things doesn't make me feel like either the KDF or Starfleet is incomplete. Now, I won't turn down a photonic tommy gun if they want to give me one, I'd ironically use it with my KDF aligned Vorta because he looks pretty good in a tuxedo. I wouldn't wear a kilt, but I wouldn't resent it if others did. But because I log into the game, find a decent range of costume options for my character, find a decent range of weapon options for my character, and generally find something that I like well enough and don't feel corralled into something I dislike, it feels complete. And that's the subjective standard I use for judging whether costume options are complete. If I'm not corralled into a choice I dislike.
Now, what's the subjective standard you use to determine whether, just simplifying now, the KDF's costume selection is whole, is not missing anything essential? You can list some things that they are missing, you can give alot of examples of what they are missing, but what makes those things the essential components?
Not that I dont like the thought of an actual Scivessel on KDF-Side, but speaking that out? I mean KDF and Science? Thats a bit like USA and communism, it just doenst mix.
That depends on how you define "science" in STO.
Does it only mean peaceful exploration and tree-hugging?
Or does it also cover the kind of "science" actual real-life militaries use?
That would be "Signal Intelligence", "Electronic Intelligence" and of course electronic warfare.
Like stealth (masking your signature), jamming (jamming sensors) doing sweeps (sensor scans);)
So it's the kind of stuff the Soviets and the Americans built for their navies and that are still in service.
And yes when you're a warfaring species you'd want to know what your neighbours are up to (especially those that have cloaks). What kind of potential targets are living beyond your current borders is probably also nice to know.:P That's the kind of science that IMHO makes sense for the Klingons.
I happen to think the KDF have been finished since LoR. But most others seem to have this borderline obsession with comparing it with other factions and complaining about how little the KDF have in comparison.
But for me, it is quality over quantity. The revamped tutorial and early missions are easily some of the best in the game. The ship lineup has some gaps this is true, but I can sort of understand the lack of science options since this is KDF we're talking about. The only glaring omission is a T6 BoP which apparently is on the way.
Everything still looks good. I'd rather spend time in Qo'nos even with the pretty new ESD and the classic ship designs beat any Fed bathtub...but again it's a perspective thing.
In either event, all content from now on will be cross faction and it's been confirmed by the Gecko himself.
Okay, I've had an interesting time reading this thread and thought I'd give it a crack.
OP - you may not understand the depth of feeling many KDF players have built up over the years of having to "make do with less" (less story content, ships, costumes, races, levels to begin with ie starting at level 21 is something I remember). It is a bitter feeling for many. Look at the history of the KDF as a faction. It's unique consoles made available to the FEDs players (yes, we got theirs in return but never asked for them). It's ship choices heavily limited for a long time. It's sci ship choices the vo'quv carrier, or very eng heavy Varanus. Before you know it, the Atrox get's made for the Feds (but no Ferasan equivalent/variant for the KDF) so Feds get a carrier too.
The most vocal of the KDF playerbase has hashed out what they would like/want/"need" for the KDF to feel complete and it is not what the FEDs have.
I don't want a Vesta, RSV or DSSV. I want the equivalent. A Lethean ship or a Ferasan ship would be awesome (since the Feds have Vulcan, Andorian and Caitian ships despite being a Federation which has always shown uniformity in ships in every series where Starfleet was a Federation organisation).
I don't want tuxedos, but Worf's off-duty clothing from any series he was in would be awesome. As would anything worn by Suzie Plakton, but I digress
You define complete in your own way, and have failed to open your own mind to the fact that someone else's argument for why it is not may be acceptible. You want them to justify it. How about no?
I am one of the 18% (now apparently 16%, so I am becoming more unique all the time) and I feel the little thing are what makes a faction feel complete. Greatcoats, hair that actually looks like a Klingon would be seen dead with it, D'ktags, Mek'liths, a science ship that looks and feels KDF at endgame, more costume options, a K'Vort (yes, I know it's just a big BoP but I love the idea of a big BoP and I know it's not going to happen) and a myriad of little things that make me smile when I play.
That's what I want in order for the KDF to feel complete.
But here's the kicker. I don't think it will ever happen... for the KDF OR the FEDs. We will always want more, and better, on both sides of the fence. Doesn't mean we should ever accept shoddy service/products. We just need to be more polite, and persuasive.
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
You subjectively picked that point based on reasoning that came from "feels". You "felt" grinding the same patrol was boring, yet doing missions (that you played as a Starfleet character) was not boring. Thus, the KDF is "complete", since you don't have to grind patrol missions to level.
Anything anyone posts here is going to be "I feel the KDF is missing x". Often, they will make a comparison to Starfleet content. Then you will tell them "you don't need it". So, again, where is the discussion?
Actually you're wrong. If someone had stated a position and then provided their reasoning for it, I wouldn't tell them "you don't need it" because they would, in that one post, become my absolute favorite poster in this entire thread. I would cherish them, I would be nice to them, I would heap praise upon them because they'll have actually presented a position worth discussing.
But since you've had this explained to you three times now? Four times? I honestly don't care enough to go back and count. But after multiple explanations you still refuse to take a position, and then reach a step further in assigning a position to me that I don't hold, I don't expect that person to be you and so I'm done wasting time on this exchange.
Umm taking the easy way out IS lazy either by the devs or their superiors. Probably more than likely their superiors who want it out fast as possible without any thought of the consequences.
Frankly it's asinine how they did it. And I am calling it like it is. Pure laziness to simply copy and past most of the fed missions and call it done.
I can only guess that since you once worked in corporate, that you didn't last long there. Doing work out of scope with what you are assigned will get you fired as sure as not doing the work at all will.
All I can say is if you were one of the people working under me as manager, you would be RIF'd in short order. The fact that you think you can do whatever you want in your job isn't going to get you very far in life.
This is not my actual answer, so please read atleast the second paragraph before you even start to respond. But, KDF uniforms have combadges. And they've never added a useable photonic tommy gun despite it being shown off in cannon as much as the Gin'Tak spear. There is no Gamma Quadrant recruitment Doff on the bridge of my JHAS. No kilts either, how am I supposed to be a scottsman with no kilt? Which is why examples of three arbitrary things are not as good as a rational standard.
The lack of these things doesn't make me feel like either the KDF or Starfleet is incomplete. Now, I won't turn down a photonic tommy gun if they want to give me one, I'd ironically use it with my KDF aligned Vorta because he looks pretty good in a tuxedo. I wouldn't wear a kilt, but I wouldn't resent it if others did. But because I log into the game, find a decent range of costume options for my character, find a decent range of weapon options for my character, and generally find something that I like well enough and don't feel corralled into something I dislike, it feels complete. And that's the subjective standard I use for judging whether costume options are complete. If I'm not corralled into a choice I dislike.
Now, what's the subjective standard you use to determine whether, just simplifying now, the KDF's costume selection is whole, is not missing anything essential? You can list some things that they are missing, you can give alot of examples of what they are missing, but what makes those things the essential components?
Went right over your head what I was driving at. All you got out of it "KDF doesn't have uniform parts and that's your argument?"
Really man try reading.
How bout they are missing:
Their own individual story arcs that cover the entire breath of the game instead of just a couple of short arcs then cut and paste from Fed missions. Infact I plan to do my own thread(again) on how STO continues to TRIBBLE the pooch in this regard.
Missing a whole range of ships especially in the science department. And along the lines of ships how bout separate but equal. For example Roms get their singularity abiliites, Feds tend to have better cruisers and science ships, what does the KDF get that sets them apart but makes them equal? I mean why give the Fed the Avenger when it was a perfect oppertunity to give the KDF something special all their own. But nope, gave the Avenger to the feds to stop their flood of tears.
Nothing. Infact Feds got a raider style ship in the revamped Aquaris. WTF does the federation need with a raiding ship? Goes against their ethos and ethics unless we are simply just dumping that out the window for the sake of expediency.
Clothing. Yes while having an ok range, it really doesn't cut the mustard along with hand held weapons.
Race selection. How many times have I heard a fed player wail "I want an Orion Fed character!" Good god, must EVERYTHING be given to the feds, like they don't have enough.
There is a whole heap of problems that make the KDF not even close to finished. There's a reason that star fleet is so widely used. PWE made it the path of least resistance and gave that faction more options. Then sat there and wondered why the KDF was floundering. Then the TRIBBLE job on the Romulans, lets not forget that.
There's an easy reason why feds are picked hand over fist. People follow the path of least resistance and that's the Federation. Plain and simple.
That spell it out for you?
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I can only guess that since you once worked in corporate, that you didn't last long there. Doing work out of scope with what you are assigned will get you fired as sure as not doing the work at all will.
All I can say is if you were one of the people working under me as manager, you would be RIF'd in short order. The fact that you think you can do whatever you want in your job isn't going to get you very far in life.
Umm reason I didn't last long in the corporate world is no where even near what you think or your flawed reasoning.
But keep trying ace, it's kinda funny.
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Umm reason I didn't last long in the corporate world is no where even near what you think or your flawed reasoning.
But keep trying ace, it's kinda funny.
Heh, so you openly admit that you didn't cut it in the environment, but openly criticize people working there for not acting in a way that would leave them unemployed?
FYI, every person I have ever heard say "I didn't last long in corporate because of X", X is not the reason they didn't cut it no matter how much they tell themselves that it was, so I am glad you spared me the reason.
Okay, I've had an interesting time reading this thread and thought I'd give it a crack.
OP - you may not understand the depth of feeling many KDF players have built up over the years of having to "make do with less" (less story content, ships, costumes, races, levels to begin with ie starting at level 21 is something I remember). It is a bitter feeling for many. Look at the history of the KDF as a faction. It's unique consoles made available to the FEDs players (yes, we got theirs in return but never asked for them). It's ship choices heavily limited for a long time. It's sci ship choices the vo'quv carrier, or very eng heavy Varanus. Before you know it, the Atrox get's made for the Feds (but no Ferasan equivalent/variant for the KDF) so Feds get a carrier too.
The most vocal of the KDF playerbase has hashed out what they would like/want/"need" for the KDF to feel complete and it is not what the FEDs have.
I don't want a Vesta, RSV or DSSV. I want the equivalent. A Lethean ship or a Ferasan ship would be awesome (since the Feds have Vulcan, Andorian and Caitian ships despite being a Federation which has always shown uniformity in ships in every series where Starfleet was a Federation organisation).
I don't want tuxedos, but Worf's off-duty clothing from any series he was in would be awesome. As would anything worn by Suzie Plakton, but I digress
You define complete in your own way, and have failed to open your own mind to the fact that someone else's argument for why it is not may be acceptible. You want them to justify it. How about no?
I am one of the 18% (now apparently 16%, so I am becoming more unique all the time) and I feel the little thing are what makes a faction feel complete. Greatcoats, hair that actually looks like a Klingon would be seen dead with it, D'ktags, Mek'liths, a science ship that looks and feels KDF at endgame, more costume options, a K'Vort (yes, I know it's just a big BoP but I love the idea of a big BoP and I know it's not going to happen) and a myriad of little things that make me smile when I play.
That's what I want in order for the KDF to feel complete.
But here's the kicker. I don't think it will ever happen... for the KDF OR the FEDs. We will always want more, and better, on both sides of the fence. Doesn't mean we should ever accept shoddy service/products. We just need to be more polite, and persuasive.
Ignoring the unintentional arrogance of you lecturing me, a KDF veteran since beta, about what KDF players want when in reality you are talking about what you want, lets go ahead and address this because I do want to know what you as an individual want.
You've provided a wishlist. Which is okay, as another post points out the first part of this discussion is going to be a wish list. But in regards to the wishlist, I'm not sure why you draw the line at greatcoats when I drew the line back at five different sets of kit-bashable uniforms, plus set accessories and some race unique outfits for Nausicaans and Orions. I want to understand why you draw the line at new hair when I was satisfied with the Gorn skeleton revamp. I want to understand why you feel a KDF themed science ship at endgame is essential when nobody suggests that a Federation themed battle cloaking raider is essential. Why do you feel the KDF needs a big bird of prey when battle cruisers are already over-represented in game? And if you say you want a KDF version of the Scimitar I'm going to groan because frankly, my hope is that the Scimitar stays forever at tier-5 then fades into obscurity.
If it's just that you feel this way, and you're not capable of introspection, that's fine but understand the developers can't do much with that feedback besides a thumbs-up thumbs-down on whether something is doable before they unleash their fourth faction on us.
Nope. You gave me a list of things you wanted. I asked you for a rational standard, even a subjective one, and you just gave me another list of things you wanted. I guess I can try to deduce a rational standard from your list of petty grievances, but it's not really fair to you. So instead I'll just repeat the third paragraph here, without distracting interactions to throw you off track.
Now, what's the subjective standard you use to determine whether, just simplifying now, the KDF's costume selection is whole, is not missing anything essential? You can list some things that they are missing, you can give alot of examples of what they are missing, but what makes those things the essential components?
Don't worry about ships yet. That's too big of a topic for us to tackle right now, with my inability to communicate to you that I'm looking for a rational standard that can be applied more generally, and your inability to see past a list of toys that you need to be given, we're focusing this down to the smallest possible detail so we can make some progress
So just read the above paragraph and let me know what part is confusing you. Don't be embarrassed, there are actually alot of people in this thread having the same problem as you and they may be grateful that you spoke up.
In general, Corporate explains so much about what's wrong in the game that it's hard to argue that it isn't one of the deciding factors.
We have, thanks to Corporate;
a Lead Game Designer/Developer who doesn't know or understand the basics of the game. (In a recent Podcast, Geko confused Power Insulators with Flow Capacitors and then confused them with Electro Plasma systems. This isn't lockbox, this isn't intel, this isn't clicky consoles, this is stuff right off the character sheet every player has, it's Core Rules. this guy's outlasted every EP above him.
The hilarious illogic of conflating selling inferior gear at inflated prices, then declaring a faction or playerbase unprofitable because they won't buy inferior gear at inflated prices...that's something you only find in the upper reaches of Corporations, far separated from the end-user or customer end. The Varanus, no matter how you slice it, is a gimped version of the 'free' DSSV, and the Fleet Varanus is a gimped version of the Fleet (only more gimped in spite of the additional console.) The Bortasque was and is a gimped Oddyssey and quite possibly the worst designed ship in the game (including shuttles and BoPs.)
Modern post-80's corporate culture; Cannibalize! Cannibalize!! the behaviour wrt KDf works this way; Taking faction-unique elements and cross-factioning them to claim progress and content, from the smaller, less developed side of the market, to the larger one. Carriers, Battlecruisers, Leech, Assimilators, Raiders, etc. (though with Raiders, it was a miscalculation and nobody's buying the Aquarius at twenty bucks plus and T5 Shipyard per-not with better escorts already in the yard.)
Only corporate management could justify making only one product, swamping the market with it, then claiming alternatives that weren't even made aren't profitable. We're up to our eyeballs in Battlecruisers, can run a different one every day of the week without recycling, and that's if you ONLY count T5U/T6 hulls. Cryptic's made exactly 3 non- Battlecruisers for KDF. The B'rel (Three plus years ago), the Varanus (Three plus years ago) and the Mat'Ha. The DSD's don't count-they're cross-factional, but even if they did, that's still four...total, and they're bugged to the point that they're considered defective by EVERY faction, but they do see more use by KDF than by the FEderation players-because Feds have better options that are older and more available.
Only the deadline-driven corporate mindset could explain ignoring product testing and skimping on QC to the level seen since before Season 7. The reason a lot of us stopped testing on tribble, is that our results were ignored until after whatever it was hit holodeck-whereupon there are always the 'emergency patch' patches and the Devs act like it's a surprise, while some people (Usually Feds) get up in arms about it being "Nerfed".
The 'DIrective" attitude driving actions-this is part of what caused the Tau Dewa Skillpoints scandal. Only a corporate drone would think that it's necessary to apply negative incentivization to make players play new content, only a corporate drone would think what D'Angelo did with that (the mass punishment of randoms that missed actual offenders and hit people who didn't even DO the so-called 'exploit') was a good idea.
Only corporate drones would ignore basic MMO principles like counter-play on a consistent basis, or build a business model of forced obselescence.
Oh, yeah, I am in no way saying that the corporate chain isn't impeding things, I was just correcting the previous poster's claim that the devs were lazy. They aren't lazy, they work at a corporation who is telling them what to do. Corporations exist to make money, so the work that the devs do has to have that first and foremost in mind, and often gameplay can suffer as a result. Even WoW, with its $150,000,000 per month intake from subs alone (well, a lot less now, but still an ungodly amount of operating cashflow) has a lot of the issues we have in STO; they just get to do larger scale things that are messed up and players complain about.
Nobody's calling for a Fed Raider, because Feds don't want Raiders-they got the Aquarius and it didn't sell, the Breen Raider's more likely to be run by a Fed/Rom if it runs at all, (which, the last time I saw one, it was 2014 and Delta Rising wasn't even a rumour).
While I appreciate your analysis on why a ship with all of the Bird of Prey's significant weaknesses and none of it's significant strengths failed to sell. That's really irrelevant to the point raised.
That point phrased as simply as possible, nobody thinks the Federation needs access to every type of ship to be a complete faction, even the guy demanding a battle cloaking defiant variant isn't demanding it because Starfleet is an incomplete faction without that play option. So why would the KDF need access to an offensively oriented science vessel to be a complete faction?
I'm not asking if people want a viable KDF science vessel, obviously some people do and others don't. I'm asking if a viable KDF science vessel is necessary to look at the faction as a whole and say, "Yep, that's a complete faction, it is missing no essential elements or components to operate as a faction."
Half the story content is just ported fed content.
What needs to be happen is for all the copied over content to be deleted and KDF given a complete and unique full story progression of their own.
The ONLY thing KDF and Feds should share are the old feature episode stories, Delta Rising and Iconian war episodes.
indeed. klingons are not Fed pets. they shouldn't share all these boring missions, then than the missions which involved only the klingons are better
Nobody's calling for a Fed Raider, because Feds don't want Raiders-they got the Aquarius and it didn't sell, the Breen Raider's more likely to be run by a Fed/Rom if it runs at all, (which, the last time I saw one, it was 2014 and Delta Rising wasn't even a rumour).
Raiders don't sell to the Blue faction and have minimal appeal to the Green/Blue faction.
The main problem a lot of us are seeing, is that when some thing DOES jump the line, it's like the Varanus-relatively expensive for a ship that's outright inferior, or it's the Bortasque-outright inferior and Horrifically expensive-but when it jumps the line the other way, you get the Avenger-which was everything we'd been suggesting for a new Negh'var in a Fed Hull, three months ahead of the ship they rainchecked KDF side.
Factoin console transfer-same thing. We weren't asking for the consoles the devs decided to give us-but the Feds were literally begging for Leech, Assimilators, etc.
for months and in some cases years.
and do I need to remind you of the various "Defiant should have a (x)Cloak" threads?
y'know, without paying the cloaking tax?
And, of course, there is the craptastic Bortasque-which after three years of game development and rules changes is finally minimally viable...three years after release it finally has something it can do almost as well as a Fed ship that costs less.
it was the..basis...of the statement that KDF werent profitable to develop for back in 2012, and it's a ship Feds wouldn't fly. (Same with the Varanus-spend twenty bucks to get a gimped version of the 'free' DSSV?)
Geko claimed KDF sci shps wouldn't be bought-when they're ships Feds wouldn't buy either that's kind of a failure of analysis right there.
I have to agree on a lot of these points.. Dropping the leech and assimilator (while my feds do so enjoy them) was probably a premature decision.. These consoles DEFINED kdf players on their own in a lot of cases,and keeo the klinks unique. But theres the other side of that coin too.. Kdfs got the Pds.. Which is prolly one of the better fed cstore consoles as well.. While my feds love their leeches and some of my klinks use the pds.. I kinda wish they just left that alone..
The ship argument i wont even touch sci because thats an epic sore spot, and we are missing a tier 6 bop that i can only hope we get as a sexy pilot spec ship, but on another note kdf has made some ok progress.. I mean the Qib.. That thing is a monster. We only got the one intel ship there being the qib, but its a DAMN good ship. Thats not to say i dont want an equal release for all factions.. Feds got a scort, cruiser, and sci boat.. So kdf only missed out in the sci portion and if you include the BoP we missed that too.. Thats another inequality issue however in that the KdF technically have four 'defining' ship classes.. You have your cruisers, sci ships, normal escorts, then theres raiders. Strictly speaking if it was matched to available ship types, kdf should have gotten four for the intel round and fed three. Can you imagine rolling in an intel raider (which, small slick and quick honestly even makes more sense for the concept of intelligence work) with ss and oss coming off of cloak.
At the end of the day kdf and rom both actually need more sci boats.. Esp. Since romulans are touted as scientists.. Like every mission dealing with romulans involves some kind of science lab come on now but thats all im even touching in with the sci argument cuz like i said above.. Its a very sore spot.
I have to agree on a lot of these points.. Dropping the leech and assimilator (while my feds do so enjoy them) was probably a premature decision.. These consoles DEFINED kdf players on their own in a lot of cases,and keeo the klinks unique. But theres the other side of that coin too.. Kdfs got the Pds.. Which is prolly one of the better fed cstore consoles as well.. While my feds love their leeches and some of my klinks use the pds.. I kinda wish they just left that alone..
The ship argument i wont even touch sci because thats an epic sore spot, and we are missing a tier 6 bop that i can only hope we get as a sexy pilot spec ship, but on another note kdf has made some ok progress.. I mean the Qib.. That thing is a monster. We only got the one intel ship there being the qib, but its a DAMN good ship. Thats not to say i dont want an equal release for all factions.. Feds got a scort, cruiser, and sci boat.. So kdf only missed out in the sci portion and if you include the BoP we missed that too.. Thats another inequality issue however in that the KdF technically have four 'defining' ship classes.. You have your cruisers, sci ships, normal escorts, then theres raiders. Strictly speaking if it was matched to available ship types, kdf should have gotten four for the intel round and fed three. Can you imagine rolling in an intel raider (which, small slick and quick honestly even makes more sense for the concept of intelligence work) with ss and oss coming off of cloak.
At the end of the day kdf and rom both actually need more sci boats.. Esp. Since romulans are touted as scientists.. Like every mission dealing with romulans involves some kind of science lab come on now but thats all im even touching in with the sci argument cuz like i said above.. Its a very sore spot.
The Sci boat I sumed up in another post. Not hunting down. But I can generally quote it.
Take the Fleet Corsair flight-deck Cruiser. It has the boff seats already. Just need to swap one.
It has a LT Tac, Com engi, Lt Engi, LT Com Sci, LT Sci.
This is a beast in and of itself already. And if you look at it. This is the T6 Science Command Cruiser. The only 2 diffrences. The LT Sci slot is now universal, and the T6 has 57,200 hull, with 250 less crew. Other than that. The T6 Science Command Cruiser is a reskin of the affore mentioned Corsair.
Now.
Swap the Com and LT Com seats.
Wepons are already at the 4/4. No need to adjust that.
Hull needs to come up, to about 50K as with the other T6
Remove the Hangar bay. Slim the design down in the aft of the ship, move t foward in to two wings off the bow. This makes room for the Extra 1-2 Science Console Slots. Since the T6 Science Command Cruiser is 4/3/4. Also allowing the base turn rate to be bumped up to 11 or 12.
Looking at the current T6 ships. The balance on hull would be 52000. In line with the Negh'tev. As the others have 50000 or 57200 hull. Even the Qib has 57200 hull.
And here you have it. A brand new, Syndicate Science Support Vessel.
And just so you can't say I'm wrong on this about the T6 Science Command. It's stats are.
Lt Tac, Com Engi, Lt Engi, Lt Com Sci, LT Universal.
Ignoring the unintentional arrogance of you lecturing me, a KDF veteran since beta, about what KDF players want when in reality you are talking about what you want, lets go ahead and address this because I do want to know what you as an individual want.
I clearly underline that I am describing what I want. Next time I'll bold it and use another colour, so you don't miss it, 'kay sport? And not unintentional, I am arrogant
You've provided a wishlist. Which is okay, as another post points out the first part of this discussion is going to be a wish list. But in regards to the wishlist, I'm not sure why you draw the line at greatcoats when I drew the line back at five different sets of kit-bashable uniforms, plus set accessories and some race unique outfits for Nausicaans and Orions. I want to understand why you draw the line at new hair when I was satisfied with the Gorn skeleton revamp.
I didn't draw a line anywhere. I mentioned weapons, off-duty clothing options and other stuff too. I stated what I would like to see, or want to see. I also later state that noone is ever satisfied with what they get and we would all want something else even if our wishlist was fulfilled. Someone somewhere will always think "Damn, I should have asked for that as well." Glad you're satisfied, but noone asked.
I want to understand why you feel a KDF themed science ship at endgame is essential when nobody suggests that a Federation themed battle cloaking raider is essential.
Never said essential... you did. I said I want one. Why? Because I want the equivalent treatment as the Feds. I want a sci ship with more tac leaning (more in flavour with the KDF, don't you think) than one which is more eng heavy. RSV and DSSV, KDF gets almost one but not the other. And if you think people don't demand the fed battle cloaking raider you need to scour the threads more, those guys exist.
Why do you feel the KDF needs a big bird of prey when battle cruisers are already over-represented in game?
Again, I never said NEEDS, I said I want one. Why, because on screen before the Vor'cha there was the K'Vort. It is, for me and sadly others, a quintessential Klingon ship. You see a BoP outline and think Klingon. Kurn flew one, Yesterday's Enterprise showed a couple pounding on the Big D and I like Big BoPs. And who said Battlecruiser? Oh, yeah, you did. I said Big BoP. Could be an intel ship, could be a pilot ship, could be a tac heavy science ship, but I didn't say battlecruiser.
And if you say you want a KDF version of the Scimitar I'm going to groan because frankly, my hope is that the Scimitar stays forever at tier-5 then fades into obscurity.
Frankly, whilst your attitude is poor and condescending, and you are projecting here because I have not even hinted at the Scimitar in any previous posts, I will admit I dislike the Scimitar. I don't have to justify why any more than you do. Do I want one for the KDF? I don't even want one on my Romulans/Remans.
If it's just that you feel this way, and you're not capable of introspection, that's fine but understand the developers can't do much with that feedback besides a thumbs-up thumbs-down on whether something is doable before they unleash their fourth faction on us.
Once again with the insinuated insults. You asked people to tell you what they felt would complete the KDF, if they felt it incomplete. You have received that in abundance. You did not speak for the devs. You do not speak for the KDF. You do not speak for me. You asked... I replied. You insinuated people feel a certain way and must justify it to you or they show a lack of introspection. I will finish outside this quote with my last reply to you on this matter (though I do look forward to reading you try to goad me and other into replying again).
To paraphrase one of my favourite community moderators. I do not have to justify my position to you, despite what you may believe. Demanding someone justify themselves to you is just as unacceptible as flaming their justification because you disagree with it. You asked for opinion, and got it. You didn't get what you want? Ask a different question or accept that you will never get the answers you seek.
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
For not wanting to touch the science ship argument you sure talk about it a lot.
The elephant in the room here is that at no time, in no place ever in canon or even in any other game I can think of has the Klingon Empire EVER fielded a "science ship". The core KDF ship types are NOT what you say they are, even. KDF ships are BoPs, Raptors, and Battlecruisers with a few odds and ends tacked on and most of those from other species, not from Klingon shipyards. That's how the Klingons roll. They are warriors. What makes you think they have ever built dedicated science ships or have any intention of starting to? Just because Starfleet does? That's nonsense.
KDF shouldn't HAVE Science and Engineering as command career paths, it goes against their entire philosophy. Klingons are warriors, if you're not a warrior (aka Tactical primary) then you cannot rise in the ranks as glory in battle and battle prowess is THE measuring stick by which status is judged in Klingon society. If your status does not increase via accomplishments in battle, your rank will not increase and your career options will be limited. Hell, even the family you're born into can limit your rise, given the Klingon feudal system, but that's another can of worms. If you're an Engineer, or a Scientist, or a Doctor, or an Architect in Klingon society you are a useful but non-noble caste and you WILL NOT attain command. Command is for warriors of noble birth ONLY.
If you want to play a scientist commanding a survey ship with fancy sensors and physics tricks, play Starfleet where they (at least in STO canon) let that happen. They don't belong in the KDF. Klingons build warships, period.
The one other viable option is Intel, though they are viewed with suspicion and distrust by most Klingons. There is a blind spot in Klingon honor that acknowledges the necessity of deceptive tactics hence the existence of cloaking Klingon ships and the Klingon Intelligence agency, but there is a stigma attached to it. These things are judged as necessary evils in Klingon society, but they are accorded no honor or respect as they do not face their enemies directly as warriors. There's a lot of story potential in conflicts between the two castes, but unfortunately that has never been explored.
Romulans are a different story, of course, and that's a separate argument. But honestly, every time I see a KDF player ******** and moaning about KDF science ships I wonder if they actually know or care anything about Klingon culture or canon ways at all. If they did, they'd understand that Klingons do not build dedicated science ships or promote scientists to command of starships. They just don't.
Can you give me an example where they have?
I care about canon. Which is why if you look at my ship layout. It is KDF. But it ISN'T Klingon. It's Orion. And that my friend, is right in-line with Orions and their canon.
Comments
Sad part is, already been revamped once.
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Those choices are not in the hands of the devs. Calling them lazy is like me calling you lazy if you answer your phone before your email because company policy says you need to. You COULD slow down and get that email done before the person hangs up, but if you do it and miss the call, you could get fired. That doesn't make you lazy. It means you are doing your job.
And before you start in about devs being able to do more, just follow some of their twitter feeds - some posts coming in at 11 PM local time because they wanted to do some extra work for us. These are not lazy people, and it's frankly offensive to say they are.
Could of swore it had a pass over atleast once...
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Umm taking the easy way out IS lazy either by the devs or their superiors. Probably more than likely their superiors who want it out fast as possible without any thought of the consequences.
Frankly it's asinine how they did it. And I am calling it like it is. Pure laziness to simply copy and past most of the fed missions and call it done.
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This is not my actual answer, so please read atleast the second paragraph before you even start to respond. But, KDF uniforms have combadges. And they've never added a useable photonic tommy gun despite it being shown off in cannon as much as the Gin'Tak spear. There is no Gamma Quadrant recruitment Doff on the bridge of my JHAS. No kilts either, how am I supposed to be a scottsman with no kilt? Which is why examples of three arbitrary things are not as good as a rational standard.
The lack of these things doesn't make me feel like either the KDF or Starfleet is incomplete. Now, I won't turn down a photonic tommy gun if they want to give me one, I'd ironically use it with my KDF aligned Vorta because he looks pretty good in a tuxedo. I wouldn't wear a kilt, but I wouldn't resent it if others did. But because I log into the game, find a decent range of costume options for my character, find a decent range of weapon options for my character, and generally find something that I like well enough and don't feel corralled into something I dislike, it feels complete. And that's the subjective standard I use for judging whether costume options are complete. If I'm not corralled into a choice I dislike.
Now, what's the subjective standard you use to determine whether, just simplifying now, the KDF's costume selection is whole, is not missing anything essential? You can list some things that they are missing, you can give alot of examples of what they are missing, but what makes those things the essential components?
That depends on how you define "science" in STO.
Does it only mean peaceful exploration and tree-hugging?
Or does it also cover the kind of "science" actual real-life militaries use?
That would be "Signal Intelligence", "Electronic Intelligence" and of course electronic warfare.
Like stealth (masking your signature), jamming (jamming sensors) doing sweeps (sensor scans);)
So it's the kind of stuff the Soviets and the Americans built for their navies and that are still in service.
Like this for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnya-class_intelligence_ship
or a more modern platform the Germans have:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oste-class_fleet_service_ship
And yes when you're a warfaring species you'd want to know what your neighbours are up to (especially those that have cloaks). What kind of potential targets are living beyond your current borders is probably also nice to know.:P That's the kind of science that IMHO makes sense for the Klingons.
I happen to think the KDF have been finished since LoR. But most others seem to have this borderline obsession with comparing it with other factions and complaining about how little the KDF have in comparison.
But for me, it is quality over quantity. The revamped tutorial and early missions are easily some of the best in the game. The ship lineup has some gaps this is true, but I can sort of understand the lack of science options since this is KDF we're talking about. The only glaring omission is a T6 BoP which apparently is on the way.
Everything still looks good. I'd rather spend time in Qo'nos even with the pretty new ESD and the classic ship designs beat any Fed bathtub...but again it's a perspective thing.
In either event, all content from now on will be cross faction and it's been confirmed by the Gecko himself.
OP - you may not understand the depth of feeling many KDF players have built up over the years of having to "make do with less" (less story content, ships, costumes, races, levels to begin with ie starting at level 21 is something I remember). It is a bitter feeling for many. Look at the history of the KDF as a faction. It's unique consoles made available to the FEDs players (yes, we got theirs in return but never asked for them). It's ship choices heavily limited for a long time. It's sci ship choices the vo'quv carrier, or very eng heavy Varanus. Before you know it, the Atrox get's made for the Feds (but no Ferasan equivalent/variant for the KDF) so Feds get a carrier too.
The most vocal of the KDF playerbase has hashed out what they would like/want/"need" for the KDF to feel complete and it is not what the FEDs have.
I don't want a Vesta, RSV or DSSV. I want the equivalent. A Lethean ship or a Ferasan ship would be awesome (since the Feds have Vulcan, Andorian and Caitian ships despite being a Federation which has always shown uniformity in ships in every series where Starfleet was a Federation organisation).
I don't want tuxedos, but Worf's off-duty clothing from any series he was in would be awesome. As would anything worn by Suzie Plakton, but I digress
You define complete in your own way, and have failed to open your own mind to the fact that someone else's argument for why it is not may be acceptible. You want them to justify it. How about no?
I am one of the 18% (now apparently 16%, so I am becoming more unique all the time) and I feel the little thing are what makes a faction feel complete. Greatcoats, hair that actually looks like a Klingon would be seen dead with it, D'ktags, Mek'liths, a science ship that looks and feels KDF at endgame, more costume options, a K'Vort (yes, I know it's just a big BoP but I love the idea of a big BoP and I know it's not going to happen) and a myriad of little things that make me smile when I play.
That's what I want in order for the KDF to feel complete.
But here's the kicker. I don't think it will ever happen... for the KDF OR the FEDs. We will always want more, and better, on both sides of the fence. Doesn't mean we should ever accept shoddy service/products. We just need to be more polite, and persuasive.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
Actually you're wrong. If someone had stated a position and then provided their reasoning for it, I wouldn't tell them "you don't need it" because they would, in that one post, become my absolute favorite poster in this entire thread. I would cherish them, I would be nice to them, I would heap praise upon them because they'll have actually presented a position worth discussing.
But since you've had this explained to you three times now? Four times? I honestly don't care enough to go back and count. But after multiple explanations you still refuse to take a position, and then reach a step further in assigning a position to me that I don't hold, I don't expect that person to be you and so I'm done wasting time on this exchange.
I can only guess that since you once worked in corporate, that you didn't last long there. Doing work out of scope with what you are assigned will get you fired as sure as not doing the work at all will.
All I can say is if you were one of the people working under me as manager, you would be RIF'd in short order. The fact that you think you can do whatever you want in your job isn't going to get you very far in life.
Went right over your head what I was driving at. All you got out of it "KDF doesn't have uniform parts and that's your argument?"
Really man try reading.
How bout they are missing:
Their own individual story arcs that cover the entire breath of the game instead of just a couple of short arcs then cut and paste from Fed missions. Infact I plan to do my own thread(again) on how STO continues to TRIBBLE the pooch in this regard.
Missing a whole range of ships especially in the science department. And along the lines of ships how bout separate but equal. For example Roms get their singularity abiliites, Feds tend to have better cruisers and science ships, what does the KDF get that sets them apart but makes them equal? I mean why give the Fed the Avenger when it was a perfect oppertunity to give the KDF something special all their own. But nope, gave the Avenger to the feds to stop their flood of tears.
Nothing. Infact Feds got a raider style ship in the revamped Aquaris. WTF does the federation need with a raiding ship? Goes against their ethos and ethics unless we are simply just dumping that out the window for the sake of expediency.
Clothing. Yes while having an ok range, it really doesn't cut the mustard along with hand held weapons.
Race selection. How many times have I heard a fed player wail "I want an Orion Fed character!" Good god, must EVERYTHING be given to the feds, like they don't have enough.
There is a whole heap of problems that make the KDF not even close to finished. There's a reason that star fleet is so widely used. PWE made it the path of least resistance and gave that faction more options. Then sat there and wondered why the KDF was floundering. Then the TRIBBLE job on the Romulans, lets not forget that.
There's an easy reason why feds are picked hand over fist. People follow the path of least resistance and that's the Federation. Plain and simple.
That spell it out for you?
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Umm reason I didn't last long in the corporate world is no where even near what you think or your flawed reasoning.
But keep trying ace, it's kinda funny.
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Heh, so you openly admit that you didn't cut it in the environment, but openly criticize people working there for not acting in a way that would leave them unemployed?
FYI, every person I have ever heard say "I didn't last long in corporate because of X", X is not the reason they didn't cut it no matter how much they tell themselves that it was, so I am glad you spared me the reason.
Ignoring the unintentional arrogance of you lecturing me, a KDF veteran since beta, about what KDF players want when in reality you are talking about what you want, lets go ahead and address this because I do want to know what you as an individual want.
You've provided a wishlist. Which is okay, as another post points out the first part of this discussion is going to be a wish list. But in regards to the wishlist, I'm not sure why you draw the line at greatcoats when I drew the line back at five different sets of kit-bashable uniforms, plus set accessories and some race unique outfits for Nausicaans and Orions. I want to understand why you draw the line at new hair when I was satisfied with the Gorn skeleton revamp. I want to understand why you feel a KDF themed science ship at endgame is essential when nobody suggests that a Federation themed battle cloaking raider is essential. Why do you feel the KDF needs a big bird of prey when battle cruisers are already over-represented in game? And if you say you want a KDF version of the Scimitar I'm going to groan because frankly, my hope is that the Scimitar stays forever at tier-5 then fades into obscurity.
If it's just that you feel this way, and you're not capable of introspection, that's fine but understand the developers can't do much with that feedback besides a thumbs-up thumbs-down on whether something is doable before they unleash their fourth faction on us.
Nope. You gave me a list of things you wanted. I asked you for a rational standard, even a subjective one, and you just gave me another list of things you wanted. I guess I can try to deduce a rational standard from your list of petty grievances, but it's not really fair to you. So instead I'll just repeat the third paragraph here, without distracting interactions to throw you off track.
Now, what's the subjective standard you use to determine whether, just simplifying now, the KDF's costume selection is whole, is not missing anything essential? You can list some things that they are missing, you can give alot of examples of what they are missing, but what makes those things the essential components?
Don't worry about ships yet. That's too big of a topic for us to tackle right now, with my inability to communicate to you that I'm looking for a rational standard that can be applied more generally, and your inability to see past a list of toys that you need to be given, we're focusing this down to the smallest possible detail so we can make some progress
So just read the above paragraph and let me know what part is confusing you. Don't be embarrassed, there are actually alot of people in this thread having the same problem as you and they may be grateful that you spoke up.
Oh, yeah, I am in no way saying that the corporate chain isn't impeding things, I was just correcting the previous poster's claim that the devs were lazy. They aren't lazy, they work at a corporation who is telling them what to do. Corporations exist to make money, so the work that the devs do has to have that first and foremost in mind, and often gameplay can suffer as a result. Even WoW, with its $150,000,000 per month intake from subs alone (well, a lot less now, but still an ungodly amount of operating cashflow) has a lot of the issues we have in STO; they just get to do larger scale things that are messed up and players complain about.
While I appreciate your analysis on why a ship with all of the Bird of Prey's significant weaknesses and none of it's significant strengths failed to sell. That's really irrelevant to the point raised.
That point phrased as simply as possible, nobody thinks the Federation needs access to every type of ship to be a complete faction, even the guy demanding a battle cloaking defiant variant isn't demanding it because Starfleet is an incomplete faction without that play option. So why would the KDF need access to an offensively oriented science vessel to be a complete faction?
I'm not asking if people want a viable KDF science vessel, obviously some people do and others don't. I'm asking if a viable KDF science vessel is necessary to look at the faction as a whole and say, "Yep, that's a complete faction, it is missing no essential elements or components to operate as a faction."
indeed. klingons are not Fed pets. they shouldn't share all these boring missions, then than the missions which involved only the klingons are better
I have to agree on a lot of these points.. Dropping the leech and assimilator (while my feds do so enjoy them) was probably a premature decision.. These consoles DEFINED kdf players on their own in a lot of cases,and keeo the klinks unique. But theres the other side of that coin too.. Kdfs got the Pds.. Which is prolly one of the better fed cstore consoles as well.. While my feds love their leeches and some of my klinks use the pds.. I kinda wish they just left that alone..
The ship argument i wont even touch sci because thats an epic sore spot, and we are missing a tier 6 bop that i can only hope we get as a sexy pilot spec ship, but on another note kdf has made some ok progress.. I mean the Qib.. That thing is a monster. We only got the one intel ship there being the qib, but its a DAMN good ship. Thats not to say i dont want an equal release for all factions.. Feds got a scort, cruiser, and sci boat.. So kdf only missed out in the sci portion and if you include the BoP we missed that too.. Thats another inequality issue however in that the KdF technically have four 'defining' ship classes.. You have your cruisers, sci ships, normal escorts, then theres raiders. Strictly speaking if it was matched to available ship types, kdf should have gotten four for the intel round and fed three. Can you imagine rolling in an intel raider (which, small slick and quick honestly even makes more sense for the concept of intelligence work) with ss and oss coming off of cloak.
At the end of the day kdf and rom both actually need more sci boats.. Esp. Since romulans are touted as scientists.. Like every mission dealing with romulans involves some kind of science lab come on now
The Sci boat I sumed up in another post. Not hunting down. But I can generally quote it.
Take the Fleet Corsair flight-deck Cruiser. It has the boff seats already. Just need to swap one.
It has a LT Tac, Com engi, Lt Engi, LT Com Sci, LT Sci.
Consoles:
Engi: 4
Tac: 3
Sci: 4
Weapons:
Fore; 4
Aft; 4
Hull: 39000
Shield Mod: 1.1
Crew: 1750
Base Turn: 8
Device Slots: 4
Hangar Bay: 1
This is a beast in and of itself already. And if you look at it. This is the T6 Science Command Cruiser. The only 2 diffrences. The LT Sci slot is now universal, and the T6 has 57,200 hull, with 250 less crew. Other than that. The T6 Science Command Cruiser is a reskin of the affore mentioned Corsair.
Now.
Swap the Com and LT Com seats.
Wepons are already at the 4/4. No need to adjust that.
Hull needs to come up, to about 50K as with the other T6
Remove the Hangar bay. Slim the design down in the aft of the ship, move t foward in to two wings off the bow. This makes room for the Extra 1-2 Science Console Slots. Since the T6 Science Command Cruiser is 4/3/4. Also allowing the base turn rate to be bumped up to 11 or 12.
Looking at the current T6 ships. The balance on hull would be 52000. In line with the Negh'tev. As the others have 50000 or 57200 hull. Even the Qib has 57200 hull.
And here you have it. A brand new, Syndicate Science Support Vessel.
And just so you can't say I'm wrong on this about the T6 Science Command. It's stats are.
Lt Tac, Com Engi, Lt Engi, Lt Com Sci, LT Universal.
Consoles:
Engi: 4
Tac: 3
Sci: 4
Weapons:
Fore: 4
Aft: 4
Hull: 52700
Shield Mod: 1.1
Crew: 1500
Base Turn: 8
Device Slots: 4
Hangar Bay: 1
Oh forgot to adjust Console layout. Wouldn't want people to think I'm aiming for OP.
So lets do this ships stats as.
Syndicate Science Support Vessel
Lt Tac, Lt Com Engi, Com Sci, Lt Sci, Lt Universal
Consoles:
Engi: 4
Tac: 2
Sci: 5
Weapons
Fore: 4
Aft : 4
Hull: 52000
Shield Mod: 1.1
Crew: 1500
Base Turn: 11
Device: 4
To paraphrase one of my favourite community moderators. I do not have to justify my position to you, despite what you may believe. Demanding someone justify themselves to you is just as unacceptible as flaming their justification because you disagree with it. You asked for opinion, and got it. You didn't get what you want? Ask a different question or accept that you will never get the answers you seek.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
I care about canon. Which is why if you look at my ship layout. It is KDF. But it ISN'T Klingon. It's Orion. And that my friend, is right in-line with Orions and their canon.
Lacking in multiple areas ship wise and 3 of their races don't even have female options...sounds done to me! :rolleyes: