That I can see. In fact, I always saw the Gorn as being smarter and more science oriented than people give them credit for, they think of them as brutish Godzilla types but they're actually quite intelligent. I could see them building science / support vessels. Just not Klingons. That's not what they do.
Yeah.. I was thinking about going with Gorn on it. Just couldn't think of a name for it.
So I went with Orion. and well Syndicate Science Support... it just kind of fit perfectly for what I was aiming for.
Never said essential... you did. I said I want one.
Mmhmm...
Again, I never said NEEDS, I said I want one.
Fascinating.
Frankly, whilst your attitude is poor and condescending,
Not really in the post you're responding to.
You asked people to tell you what they felt would complete the KDF, if they felt it incomplete. You have received that in abundance.
That's not what I asked people to tell me.
This thread had a very simple goal. From people who felt the KDF was incomplete I wanted to know what would be necessary, what would be needed, for them to feel like the faction is complete. And then I wanted to know why they felt that was necessary. I wished to understand this because what seems pretty clear to me, that the KDF has enough content and development to be considered a complete faction, is just as clearly not the case to them.
Now admittedly, it was partially my fault too. I assumed you were attempting to answer the question raised in the original thread, doubly my fault for assuming you would understand the difference between the faction being complete and the faction being satisfying to you personally. I mean sure, I explained the difference in my original post, and you claimed to have read the original post, but that's still no reason to assume you were trying to contribute, instead of attempting to hijack my thread for some other, unexplained purpose.
I would just say, as a parting bit of advice before I move on to more informed and intelligent responders, while you don't have to justify attempts to hijack my thread, it's still considered polite to not try to hijack threads. And pass it along to the kid trying to get people to comment on his fan created science vessel.
Lacking in multiple areas ship wise and 3 of their races don't even have female options...sounds done to me! :rolleyes:
Not 'done,' I said 'complete.' They are actually two different words.
com·plete
adjective
1.
having all the necessary or appropriate parts.
Where as 'done' in this context would mean something more along the lines of finished.
Which I explained in the original post, in fact I even said...
and I don't mean finished, that'll probably never happen either.
Ah yes. I hope that explains your confusion and leaves you in a position to contribute more thoughtfully on the topic. In fact, you're the first person on this thread to mention the lack of Nausicaan, Lethean and Gorn females. While I maintain we have Gorn females already, and they just lack the sexual dimorphism we see in primates, still it's at least a new perspective.
Would you consider female Nausicaans, Lethean and Gorn to be an essential part of a complete KDF?
As for the OP, KDF is pretty much finished. There will always be people who say a faction needs more ships (which is not necessarily wrong), but the KDF has already enough for every Level. Everything else would be bonus.
the problem with that is they are essentially rehashed fed episodes from DS9 - breen arc, sure there are reasons for it but frankly past level 38 ish the klingons stop feeling unique.
while its true end game has turned into multi-faction missions I think there needs to be a complete redo of DS9 missions for both fed and klingon and perhaps a few with the breen the rest is okay as far as im concerned.
I wish they elaborated on the felkhri a bit more than they did seeing as they're supposed to be pawns of the iconians or something or they were created by the iconians either way as important as it is to Klingon lore etc it should of had more episodes.
as for the ships... eh... dont even go there.. "tactical bortasqu" doesn't even feel tactical lol
Recently the priority one podcast has alluded to the possibility of a Borg faction. For those interested, they nixed the idea of a Borg lockbox ship because they are saving it for a possible Borg faction in the future, much the same way they used to nix Romulan ships and content in preparation for a Romulan faction. Obviously this revelation that a playable Borg faction is not only possible, but being planned around, brought out the usual interested fans who would very much like to Borg for Great Justice! And then a deja vu inducing flood of naysayers claiming it shouldn't happen because Cryptic hasn't finished the KDF or Romulan Republic.
Now, I've heard all of these complaints years ago, five years ago in fact, when people were talking about a Romulan Faction during the beta. And five years ago the complaints that the KDF were not complete made a lot more sense. Five years ago the Klingon faction had a huge hole in their leveling content that required grinding endless mobs without context in the Kahless Expanse and other mindless kill zones. Five years ago, the KDF had four ship choices at end game, and their bridge officer layouts were none too good. Five years ago, the KDF had no tier 2 cruisers, you had to grind through two tiers worth of BoP's if you wanted something sturdy.
But today the KDF feels like a complete faction to me. Now understand when I say complete I don't mean of equal size, that'll probably never happen, and I don't mean finished, that'll probably never happen either. When I say complete, I mean that I can't find any gaps in KDF play. I can't find any levels where the KDF, and only the KDF, needs to grind mobs or PVP to bridge a hole in content. I can't look over their ship roster and see a ship that needs to be added or a Klingon absolutely can't play in a certain way. Though, with the attempt to maintain faction identity limiting certain ship choices overall, that's more of a sticky situation. I can't purchase all of their clothing options because I don't want to spend that much money on clothes.
So, I guess my question would be, if you don't think the KDF is complete, why and what would it take to make them complete for you?
Edit:
And just to clarify. Please make sure you are mentioning things that are needed to make your faction complete, and not just listing things you'd like to see or individual pet peeves. There is a place for things you would like to see, and there is a place for pet peeves. It's other threads.
You can't be serious can you? You really want another faction that will again limit development to the existing factions? You want to play through all the cross faction missions again on another character in another faction? Do the grind again to level 60, do all the rep and all the specializations and R&D?
The KDF is far from complete. The complete lack of science ships, missing carrier, missing Bird of Preys and another couple of Raptors. The half arsed Federation copy and paste missions in the Cardassian/Dominion arc?
I'd rather see them devote time to turning all the cross faction missions into faction unique missions. Give all the existing ones to the Federation (which they were written for) and make new Romulan and Klingon ones for those factions that tie in with the story. Make unique ships for each faction rather than this large bundles of copy and paste ships for all 3 factions. Bring some uniqueness back to the game that makes it worthwhile to roll characters in more than one faction. Give some goodies to the KDF and Romulans to encourage those fed only players to widen the scope and actually play the game, the whole game not just part of it.
Lets face it, they aren't going to get a whole bunch of new players anytime soon, why not satisfy the players who have supported this game for years, the ones who are getting sick and fed up (well that has been there for 3-4 years now) of the incompleteness of the KDF. Give the Romulans the love they deserve too.
Say NO to more factions.
Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
You can't be serious can you? You really want another faction that will again limit development to the existing factions? You want to play through all the cross faction missions again on another character in another faction? Do the grind again to level 60, do all the rep and all the specializations and R&D?
What I want isn't the question. What will happen is what will happen, and based on Cryptic's history and what has recently been said, we are more likely that we'll see a fourth faction than we are to not.
The KDF is far from complete. The complete lack of science ships, missing carrier, missing Bird of Preys and another couple of Raptors. The half arsed Federation copy and paste missions in the Cardassian/Dominion arc?
I'd rather see them devote time to turning all the cross faction missions into faction unique missions. Give all the existing ones to the Federation (which they were written for) and make new Romulan and Klingon ones for those factions that tie in with the story. Make unique ships for each faction rather than this large bundles of copy and paste ships for all 3 factions. Bring some uniqueness back to the game that makes it worthwhile to roll characters in more than one faction. Give some goodies to the KDF and Romulans to encourage those fed only players to widen the scope and actually play the game, the whole game not just part of it.
I see you didn't read the whole post you quoted. That's discouraging.
Okay, so as I said to another poster earlier, that's a wishlist of things you want. That's fine, it's a good start. Now take one of those things, and really think about why it's essential for a working KDF faction.
Because, as I explained to another poster earlier, that's what complete means. As an adjective it simply means it has all of it's essential parts.
Picking one that's specific, but not going to be addressed by the roll-out of Tier-6 ships. Why are unique stories in the Cardassian/Dominion arc essential parts of a working KDF faction? I know why you want them, hell, I want them, but you're not being asked what you want, you're being asked what you think is necessary. So do you think these are necessary and if so why?
Okay, my mistake for getting drawn off topic like this, so I apologize, this will be the last time I address this point. Feds still don't have a battle cloak, so Battle Cloaking Raider is still unique to the KDF and Romulan Republic. Alot of other unique stuff, on both the Fed and KDF side, such as science vessels, carriers, universal bridge officer stations, and consoles, have become available to both factions. The homogenization runs both ways, you just see the Federation ******** about it less because the Klingons started with so much less overall.
However, in the context of THIS thread, we only need to decide whether access to tac-heavy science vessels at tier-6 are essential for faction completion. The general consensus is no.
Exactly.
Well, it's easy to say that there's no Federation '********' because as I mentioned before, that is all long in the past now. All of that was done many months ago now, especially once lockboxes appeared, and started trading consoles, then only got worse from there.
While you are technically correct in that there is no Fed Raider with battle cloak, you can still get the Aquarius which is a raider, and 'sorta' get battle cloaks by making a Fed-Rom. It's indirect, you cannot just outright go to a shipyard and simply 'get' a Fed BoP as it were. And honestly, I REALLY doubt they will ever release a 'true' Fed BoP, because something in my gut tells me that it would NOT sell.
Now, I did decide to give your question some thought, and my answer is thus:
Yes, I do think the KDF is 'complete'. I remember all the months and such of never getting squat, at all, having to start at level 21, and so on. With LoR, even with the KDF being a 'footnote' in that expansion, they were given 1-50 leveling at long last, among other things.
I'm not really against even getting basically the same ships released for all three factions (thought I am against the sheer COST of such a thing, but that's for it's own thread), more that...anytime they make a ship that isn't part of a cross-faction bundle, it's only been Feds pretty much.
I'd rather see KDF get some ships, even copy-paste work (though I'd prefer not to only see that), then no ships at all. A somewhat parity by having at least the same ships on all sides is way better than a total focus on only one faction. To speculate for a moment, making the same ship for all three factions might be the ONLY way they can make it work.
I suppose what irks me is more that Feds are the only ones to get their own ships sometimes, while KDF and Roms don't get anything. What was the last ship either of those factions that does NOT have a direct Fed equivalant? Far as I can remember, that one tactical Warbird for Roms (the name escapes me) that apparently didn't sell well at first, so they slapped a hangar on it, and for KDF...hmmm...honestly, I can't remember.
As I said in my previous post: If they don't want to give KDF a tier 6 science ship for whatever reason, fine. But by no means do I think that means they should ONLY constantly keep giving the KDF (and really as well, Roms) cruiser after cruiser, as the game is OVERLY flooded with them (hell, Fed-wise is flooded with cruisers as well). Seriously, I am PRAYING that the pilot ships, when released, are escorts/raptors/escort-esque warbirds.
As an aside for a sec: I'd rather buy a three-pack of tier 6 ships, one PER faction, irregardless of whether or not they were the same ship basically for only 6,000 zen, then a nine-pack of the same ship for 12,000, as that is just insane. I like playing all three factions, but it's very hard to justify spending that much cash on what are basically the same ship for all three factions. But only 6,000 zen for a mere 3 ships, to give something to all my characters without breaking the bank? I can get behind that more honestly. And yes, I'm basically griping about the Command ship bundle.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Not 'done,' I said 'complete.' They are actually two different words.
com·plete
adjective
1.
having all the necessary or appropriate parts.
Where as 'done' in this context would mean something more along the lines of finished.
Which I explained in the original post, in fact I even said...
Ah yes. I hope that explains your confusion and leaves you in a position to contribute more thoughtfully on the topic. In fact, you're the first person on this thread to mention the lack of Nausicaan, Lethean and Gorn females. While I maintain we have Gorn females already, and they just lack the sexual dimorphism we see in primates, still it's at least a new perspective.
Would you consider female Nausicaans, Lethean and Gorn to be an essential part of a complete KDF?
Okay then...they're incomplete...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
As someone who has played a KDF main since the beginning, with all its meager pickings, i can say from experience that the KDF is pretty fleshed out considering it's status in STO. The Feds are what Trek is based around so I've always understood the focus on that faction.
With that said, the KDF needs most of the canon ships upgraded to T6. Not new ships, just upgrades to make them more enticing to play. A few have been done but getting to the B'rel, Vo'quv and Varanus as T6 needs to happen soon. The Fek revamp has been mentioned and I think its on their schedule.
I've held Cryptic's feet to the fire often and am generally unimpressed with the staff comments around here with the notable exception of Salami and one or two others but I think, eventually, they came around to filling the KDF out for the most part. The incoming graphics upgrade for the KDF will be most welcomed.
Nothing. Infact Feds got a raider style ship in the revamped Aquaris. WTF does the federation need with a raiding ship? Goes against their ethos and ethics unless we are simply just dumping that out the window for the sake of expediency.
Wait... what? The Aquarius isn't a raider. Last I checked it doesn't cloak at all (never mind battle cloak), has a worse turn rate, doesn't have full universal BOff slots, and doesn't get the flanking bonus. It has the raider's six weapon slots, vulnerability, and some universal slots... that's it. All the bad, none of the good.
By that logic the KDF is good to go since the B'rel can slot a science commander and has six weapons just like a Fed science ship so it's all the same...
EDIT:
My mistake, forgot they added flanking. So it's just missing full unis, turn rate and any kind of innate cloak, never mind battle cloak. So... it's still not a real BoP substitute any more or less than a BoP is a SCI ship substitute.
Well, it's easy to say that there's no Federation '********' because as I mentioned before, that is all long in the past now. All of that was done many months ago now, especially once lockboxes appeared, and started trading consoles, then only got worse from there.
While you are technically correct in that there is no Fed Raider with battle cloak, you can still get the Aquarius which is a raider, and 'sorta' get battle cloaks by making a Fed-Rom. It's indirect, you cannot just outright go to a shipyard and simply 'get' a Fed BoP as it were. And honestly, I REALLY doubt they will ever release a 'true' Fed BoP, because something in my gut tells me that it would NOT sell.
First off, I didn't say no Federation ********, I said less Federation ********. In fact, I was there for the Federation "********" and the only times it happened were for overbalancing consoles that provided a 'unique feel' to KDF play by giving them a huge advantage. Things like the Plasmonic leech. And it was never universal, some Federation players would demand things for the sake of parity, other Federation players would come along and say, "We don't need that powerful console that gives the KDF an undeniable edge over us, we've got our Omega set which is not as impressive, combining the two would be overpowered, maybe we should get a different overpowered console to provide unique balance." Clearly development went a different direction.
Oh, also the occasional cloaking fed ship thread, usually made by yours truly with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek and while borrowing all the tropes of the equivalent KDF science vessel threads. I was quite the crusader for faction uniqueness in my day, not that most people noticed. And the fed carrier threads, which were legitimate hopes by paying fans with canon backing who routinely got crapped on by angry KDF players.
Now, the reasoning for this isn't that Federation players are just better people, how could they be when I am a KDF player. The reason for this is that the incomplete state of the KDF faction at launch has bred a certain culture of demand, entitlement and whining within the Klingon community that is just accepted as a necessity or out of habit. The wheel was squeaking away, trying to just get some damned grease for so long, that people stopped noticing that it kept squeaking even after they greased it, even when that greasy wheels barrels its way into an unrelated thread to try to hold development hostage to its demands.
As for the Fed-BoP, I imagine it would sell to about the same percentage of players on the Federation side that the Bird of Prey sells to on the KDF side because curiosity and play style are not faction exclusive. From my understanding that means it would sell less than the cruisers, and escorts, and about the same as the science vessels or odd specialty ships like the Atrox. But bear in mind, that still means it would out sell every KDF ship on the zen store. That they still haven't done it encourages me that they may actually take faction uniqueness seriously, even when most players treat faction identity like an excuse to not share their toys while failing to notice the irony of asking for all of his toys.
As for what you said in regards to faction completion, and needing a wider range of ship options at Tier-6, I actually agree with all of it. I'm just willing to put my indignation on hold while Tier-6 ships are still being gradually rolled out. In another thread, and another time, I might have something to say on it. This thread though is for the people who say the KDF is incomplete so I can understand why they don't see that the KDF today is in a better state than the Federation at launch.
As someone who has played a KDF main since the beginning, with all its meager pickings, i can say from experience that the KDF is pretty fleshed out considering it's status in STO. The Feds are what Trek is based around so I've always understood the focus on that faction.
I haven't said this enough to the few people who actually thought about the state of the faction and provided a thoughtful response, but thank you. Unfortunately this thread really isn't for you, which is why I haven't been responding to these kinds of posts.
With that said, the KDF needs most of the canon ships upgraded to T6. Not new ships, just upgrades to make them more enticing to play. A few have been done but getting to the B'rel, Vo'quv and Varanus as T6 needs to happen soon. The Fek revamp has been mentioned and I think its on their schedule.
I certainly agree that all factions need more Tier-6 options. The Federation of course is closer to having enough Tier-6 options than the KDF or Romulan Republic, particularly in that they have T-6 options for three distinct classes of ships. But I don't think this is really a fair variable to look at when deciding the current state of a faction since Tier-6 ships themselves are still in a relative early stage of development. Another year down the road, my opinion will change, for now though I don't think Tier-6 ships should be part of the discussion.
Using your argument, I would have to agree. Short of the KDF appearing on the PvP results, they're as full a faction to me as they need to be. The only thing(s) they could further do with is more KDF hairstyles, and more costumes (cause lets face it; compared to the boys in blue, they're lacking).
Still, generally I would agree. The KDF is complete. The Republic however; that's another story. :P I'm against a Borg Faction; I always have been and I always will be. I think Cardassians should be next in line anyway, but even if they were done, I'd still be against the Borg.
I've got 1 of each class KDF, each with a full primary and secondary spec. My Delta Recruit was a TOS Klingon. 1 active Fed (who's a Klingon).
When you bear in mind that KDF alts make up 16% of the population (at the last count) the faction is VERY well off.
We've got a decent range of T6 ships; even counting the command cruiser 3-pack as a single ship, it's 5 KDF vs 9 Starfleet. Not bad given the numbers. KDF still have the only T6 destroyer - the Mat'ha, as much as certain elements of the community decry it, is a wonderfully faction-appropriate ship.
There is a full mission set. I admit to having only just played it fully for the first time, but it's got outstanding theme episodes in the Empire / Warzone and Fek'lhri arcs that are the equal of anything in Pocket Books' novels; which is more than can be said for most of the game's content. Even most of the reheated stuff is not too bad;
KDF DOffing blows the pants off the Fed experience. Not just the dil farm aspect, but all those high-XP missions have become incredibly useful in the current paradigm. Most of those 150-odd spec points on my KDF alts have come from DOffing over 6 months. Who needs patrol grinds? Ironically, not Klingons.
The *only* issue I have with the faction "as is" is the lack of a T6 Carrier and BoP. Birds of Prey are the iconic Klingon ships and if there is one thing that makes it feel like someone at Cryptic hates the faction, it is the fact that we haven't had a new one since 2012. I actually disagree vehemently with the "Must have KDF Sci Ship!" crowd; that is just asking for Fed copypasta. STO had it right at the start when the Sci-heavy Klingon option was the carrier - different, appropriate, useful. We need a T6 sci-carrier before a Sci ship.
Riddle me this. If the feds were launched with as much missing as the KDF, anybody consider them complete?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Riddle me this. If the feds were launched with as much missing as the KDF, anybody consider them complete?
Fascinating that you think you're entitled to riddle me something when I'm still waiting for your answer. But okay, the phrasing of your question is a bit confusing.
You are either asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF has today. Or you are asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF had at launch.
If your question is the former, then yes. The Federation in fact WERE launched with less content than the KDF has now, less ships, less missions, less uniform options, and they were considered a complete faction.
If your question is the later, then no. But then again, nobody considered the KDF completed at launch, the question is how many people consider them incomplete now and why, a question you've still failed to answer.
Now, back to the topic at hand, why do you feel that a dahar masters robe is essential for the KDF to be considered a complete faction? Most people I know accepted the developer statement that the graphics on it didn't work with the player skeleton and they moved on.
Fascinating that you think you're entitled to riddle me something when I'm still waiting for your answer. But okay, the phrasing of your question is a bit confusing.
You are either asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF has today. Or you are asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF had at launch.
If your question is the former, then yes. The Federation in fact WERE launched with less content than the KDF has now, less ships, less missions, less uniform options, and they were considered a complete faction.
If your question is the later, then no. But then again, nobody considered the KDF completed at launch, the question is how many people consider them incomplete now and why, a question you've still failed to answer.
Now, back to the topic at hand, why do you feel that a dahar masters robe is essential for the KDF to be considered a complete faction? Most people I know accepted the developer statement that the graphics on it didn't work with the player skeleton and they moved on.
Wow still stuck on the whole clothing angle when it was an EXAMPLE not the issue. Small minds. It's a matter of there is so much combined left out of the KDF side let alone Romulan.
So no KDF is not complete, it never was and still isn't even since they launched.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Wow still stuck on the whole clothing angle when it was an EXAMPLE not the issue. Small minds. It's a matter of there is so much combined left out of the KDF side let alone Romulan.
So no KDF is not complete, it never was and still isn't even since they launched.
I'm not stuck on the clothing thing, I'm trying to make this simpler for you because you've shown yourself to be incapable of focusing on the questions asked when more than one issue shows up to distract you.
Now, thank you for asserting your opinion again, but I don't need to know what you feel again because I read that in your first post, the one where you laughed at me, the half dozen people who vocally agreed with me, and the countless others who agree with me but haven't bothered to read or post in this thread, for disagreeing with you. But unless you can make a good faith effort to explain WHY disagreeing with you is laughable in this one topic, then the the stark rudeness and ineptitude of your communications will forever outweigh the explanatory benefit. Make your lack of maturity and manners worth putting up with, or even a TRIBBLE like me is going to move on.
I know that might sound harsh, but I have a feeling that blunt and plainspoken are the best way you learn.
I think the kdf faction is good enough as it is. I mean seriously, I have watched anything and everything star trek a thousand times.. the klinks were always a one direction, simple minded species..
they cared only for honor and glory.. there was even a few episodes that showcased a scientific Klingon, and he talked about how it wasn't easy being a scientist in his race, that there was not a lot of support for it.
spock even spoke about how they did not have the resources to combat saving their own planet as they put so much into military and defense..
adding too much to the klinks would make them less trek in my mind..
I think the kdf faction is good enough as it is. I mean seriously, I have watched anything and everything star trek a thousand times.. the klinks were always a one direction, simple minded species..
they cared only for honor and glory.. there was even a few episodes that showcased a scientific Klingon, and he talked about how it wasn't easy being a scientist in his race, that there was not a lot of support for it.
spock even spoke about how they did not have the resources to combat saving their own planet as they put so much into military and defense..
adding too much to the klinks would make them less trek in my mind..
I've read some stupid posts in this forum. This ranks up there among the best of those.
There are many canon uniform items not included in the KDF. All while the Feds even have a stupid racing uniform. Uniform items missing from TOS. Uniform items missing from TNG/DS9 era. Uniforms from the TOS movie era. Uniform items even from STO's "modern" KDF NPCs that players cannot use.
The Klingons knew what they were doing in the IP. They maintained their political and military power, was able to maintain an arms race with the Federation and Romulan Star Empire and even engaged in wars with them. The Klingon military was of course a major factor in the devastating Dominion War, and I remind you, when the Breen Energy Dissipation crippled Starfleet & Romulan vessels, it didnt' affect Klingon vessels. Until a fix was discovered, the Klingon military shouldered the entire Dominion War effort alone against the Cardassians, Dominion, and the Breen, buying time for the alliance. Throughout that war, the Klingons were a major contributor and the Founders strove hard to drive a wedge to break up the Federation-Klingon alliance.
You do not engage in an arms race with the technologically savvy Federation if you didn't have the means to advance your own technology as well as the shipbuilding capacity to maintain that fleet.
When a Federation-Klingon War was shown as a possibility in TNG, guess who was winning? The Klingons. Both times when it was shown.
Here's another fun one:
The TV shows and movies have showcased 7 ships to carry the USS Enterprise name.
NX-01
NCC-1701
NCC-1701A thru E
One can say that whatever ship carried the name "Enterprise" was among the fleet's best in terms of ship class and crew quality.
Three of these Enterprise ships were lost during or as a result of combat.
Two of those Enterprise lost were as a result of an engagement with a Klingon B'Rel-class Bird of Prey. Not to some battleship. Not to some Omnipotent Power. A simple B'Rel.
Wait... what? The Aquarius isn't a raider. Last I checked it doesn't cloak at all (never mind battle cloak), has a worse turn rate, doesn't have full universal BOff slots, and doesn't get the flanking bonus. It has the raider's six weapon slots, vulnerability, and some universal slots... that's it. All the bad, none of the good.
By that logic the KDF is good to go since the B'rel can slot a science commander and has six weapons just like a Fed science ship so it's all the same...
EDIT:
My mistake, forgot they added flanking. So it's just missing full unis, turn rate and any kind of innate cloak, never mind battle cloak. So... it's still not a real BoP substitute any more or less than a BoP is a SCI ship substitute.
First off...it is a Raider...they made it one a while back...pre DR. It has flanking and you can equip the cloaking device console from the Defiant/Gal-X. It has all universal except for the Commander which is Tac.
Second off...you're F-ing Starfleet...you shouldn't even have anything called a Raider...all you do is steal everything everyone else has...even the most anti-federation ship...even the name is anti-federation but they call it a *light escort*.
God forbid you don't have battlecloak...the breen ship doesn't even have regular cloak so consider yourself lucky.
The Aquarius only has a few less points of turn rate than most bops, but it has a slightly stronger hull and superior shields which would rival or surpass most escorts.
So you have your raider and it is a raider and makes a much better raider than a BoP makes a Science ship.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Two of those Enterprise lost were as a result of an engagement with a Klingon B'Rel-class Bird of Prey. Not to some battleship. Not to some Omnipotent Power. A simple B'Rel.
I figure I may as well do it before some hater does...but...both times that happened the ships were at a major disadvantage.
The Enterprise was at a disadvantage...you could count the amount of crew it had with your hands and wasn't she in for repairs or something when the stole her from the dock?
The Enterprise D...she was at a major disadvantage...they had their shield frequency...modulation or whatever it was called and they were able to pierce her shields with their weapons.
Though to be clear I'm not saying it's a bad ship or anything...I doubt Martok would of spent a lot of time in one if it wasn't up to par as a ship class
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
First off...it is a Raider...they made it one a while back...pre DR. It has flanking and you can equip the cloaking device console from the Defiant/Gal-X. It has all universal except for the Commander which is Tac.
Second off...you're F-ing Starfleet...you shouldn't even have anything called a Raider...all you do is steal everything everyone else has...even the most anti-federation ship...even the name is anti-federation but they call it a *light escort*.
God forbid you don't have battlecloak...the breen ship doesn't even have regular cloak so consider yourself lucky.
The Aquarius only has a few less points of turn rate than most bops, but it has a slightly stronger hull and superior shields which would rival or surpass most escorts.
So you have your raider and it is a raider and makes a much better raider than a BoP makes a Science ship.
For one, he's not advocating that the Federation receive a battle cloak, he's correcting another poster who tried to pass the Aquarius off as an equivalent to the Bird of Prey as part of a larger discussion about whether ship classifications should be unique, the Aquarius is not an equivalent to the Bird of Prey.
For second, he's not Federation, he's a player on an MMO.
For third, development of an equivalent ship or ability by the developers is not theft, nothing has been taken from you.
For fourth, this is the second time you've been caught jumping in and yelling at someone without having read the conversation. It reflects poorly on the people who might share your point of view and weakens your argument by making you easy to refute and dismiss. Ofcourse, that would only matter if you were actually forwarding an argument, since you seem content not doing that, maybe I'm wrong and you're doing the best you can.
KDF to Player: Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at hello.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
First off, I didn't say no Federation ********, I said less Federation ********. In fact, I was there for the Federation "********" and the only times it happened were for overbalancing consoles that provided a 'unique feel' to KDF play by giving them a huge advantage. Things like the Plasmonic leech. And it was never universal, some Federation players would demand things for the sake of parity, other Federation players would come along and say, "We don't need that powerful console that gives the KDF an undeniable edge over us, we've got our Omega set which is not as impressive, combining the two would be overpowered, maybe we should get a different overpowered console to provide unique balance." Clearly development went a different direction.
Oh, also the occasional cloaking fed ship thread, usually made by yours truly with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek and while borrowing all the tropes of the equivalent KDF science vessel threads. I was quite the crusader for faction uniqueness in my day, not that most people noticed. And the fed carrier threads, which were legitimate hopes by paying fans with canon backing who routinely got crapped on by angry KDF players.
Now, the reasoning for this isn't that Federation players are just better people, how could they be when I am a KDF player. The reason for this is that the incomplete state of the KDF faction at launch has bred a certain culture of demand, entitlement and whining within the Klingon community that is just accepted as a necessity or out of habit. The wheel was squeaking away, trying to just get some damned grease for so long, that people stopped noticing that it kept squeaking even after they greased it, even when that greasy wheels barrels its way into an unrelated thread to try to hold development hostage to its demands.
As for the Fed-BoP, I imagine it would sell to about the same percentage of players on the Federation side that the Bird of Prey sells to on the KDF side because curiosity and play style are not faction exclusive. From my understanding that means it would sell less than the cruisers, and escorts, and about the same as the science vessels or odd specialty ships like the Atrox. But bear in mind, that still means it would out sell every KDF ship on the zen store. That they still haven't done it encourages me that they may actually take faction uniqueness seriously, even when most players treat faction identity like an excuse to not share their toys while failing to notice the irony of asking for all of his toys.
As for what you said in regards to faction completion, and needing a wider range of ship options at Tier-6, I actually agree with all of it. I'm just willing to put my indignation on hold while Tier-6 ships are still being gradually rolled out. In another thread, and another time, I might have something to say on it. This thread though is for the people who say the KDF is incomplete so I can understand why they don't see that the KDF today is in a better state than the Federation at launch.
I remember those threads as well. Often times I feel that they more demanded KDF things than not. Perhaps that is an old bias as a KDF player, who knows. One big argument I remember in regards to Plasmonic for Feds to NOT get it was the MACO space set when the STF system was first released. It provided a more 'defensive' (and thus kinda Fed-themed) way of gaining power by being shot at, compared to the more 'offensive' Plasmonic.
I still think that they should've given Feds other things to balance it out instead. Back around season 4/5/6, while things weren't perfect between the two, there was this kind of semi-balance in terms of what each faction was capable of. A 'checks and balances' system as it were. Klingons could cloak, had some of the unique 'toy' consoles, but had few options and learned to make do, compared to the Fed side who had many ships, could more easily detect cloaks, and so on.
I suppose looking back, what got me so infuriated once things started getting shipped to the Fed side, wasn't so much what was getting taken, but more that it was getting taken, the KDF were given nothing really worthwhile in return, AND I still saw Fed '********' threads despite everything they got.
Honestly, neither 'side' is better than the other side at this point. Irregardless of what happened in the past, all of us are at the 'mercy' of whoever is in charge feels like doing to the game. Be that Geko, or Salami, or some accountant, or anyone that is the 'real power' running the game. If they feel like making Mk XVI level equipment, and adjusting even Normal queues to be so difficult you HAVE to get that to have a chance of completing it, they can, and that'd TRIBBLE over EVERYONE, Fed, KDF, and Rom. But I'm getting off topic.
As for the Fed-raider, well, the Aquarius one could argue is TOO gimped to be a more 'proper' Raider ship. And it's high cost per character doesn't help matters. But I rarely see it, or the two 'universal' Raiders in the Breen and Kazon ones. I'm not saying that only Fed players don't want to fly one, but that the game doesn't support the playstyle that well anymore. I barely see anyone in a Raider, on any faction.
Indeed though. Especially the eventual release of the Pilot ships might get us something that ISN'T a cruiser of some kind, for any faction. Who knows, it might even be worth buying and sell well on the KDF side.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
For one, he's not advocating that the Federation receive a battle cloak, he's correcting another poster who tried to pass the Aquarius off as an equivalent to the Bird of Prey as part of a larger discussion about whether ship classifications should be unique, the Aquarius is not an equivalent to the Bird of Prey.
For second, he's not Federation, he's a player on an MMO.
For third, development of an equivalent ship or ability by the developers is not theft, nothing has been taken from you.
For fourth, this is the second time you've been caught jumping in and yelling at someone without having read the conversation. It reflects poorly on the people who might share your point of view and weakens your argument by making you easy to refute and dismiss. Ofcourse, that would only matter if you were actually forwarding an argument, since you seem content not doing that, maybe I'm wrong and you're doing the best you can.
BS it isn't theft...SF and KDF were different...they each had their own unique play styles and ships...until Feds began whining like a kid in their terrible twos and slowly they started giving everything unique the KDF had to the Feds.
But did the KDF get anything in return? NO...no a damn thing.
Don't you think the KDF would design better Science vessels? Heavy Dreadnoughts with fighter support? Hell Escort carriers would be up the KDF's ally.
But no...none of that happened because they just stole what the KDF had and gave nothing back in return.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I remember those threads as well. Often times I feel that they more demanded KDF things than not. Perhaps that is an old bias as a KDF player, who knows. One big argument I remember in regards to Plasmonic for Feds to NOT get it was the MACO space set when the STF system was first released. It provided a more 'defensive' (and thus kinda Fed-themed) way of gaining power by being shot at, compared to the more 'offensive' Plasmonic.
I still think that they should've given Feds other things to balance it out instead. Back around season 4/5/6, while things weren't perfect between the two, there was this kind of semi-balance in terms of what each faction was capable of. A 'checks and balances' system as it were. Klingons could cloak, had some of the unique 'toy' consoles, but had few options and learned to make do, compared to the Fed side who had many ships, could more easily detect cloaks, and so on.
I suppose looking back, what got me so infuriated once things started getting shipped to the Fed side, wasn't so much what was getting taken, but more that it was getting taken, the KDF were given nothing really worthwhile in return, AND I still saw Fed '********' threads despite everything they got.
Honestly, neither 'side' is better than the other side at this point. Irregardless of what happened in the past, all of us are at the 'mercy' of whoever is in charge feels like doing to the game. Be that Geko, or Salami, or some accountant, or anyone that is the 'real power' running the game. If they feel like making Mk XVI level equipment, and adjusting even Normal queues to be so difficult you HAVE to get that to have a chance of completing it, they can, and that'd TRIBBLE over EVERYONE, Fed, KDF, and Rom. But I'm getting off topic.
As for the Fed-raider, well, the Aquarius one could argue is TOO gimped to be a more 'proper' Raider ship. And it's high cost per character doesn't help matters. But I rarely see it, or the two 'universal' Raiders in the Breen and Kazon ones. I'm not saying that only Fed players don't want to fly one, but that the game doesn't support the playstyle that well anymore. I barely see anyone in a Raider, on any faction.
Indeed though. Especially the eventual release of the Pilot ships might get us something that ISN'T a cruiser of some kind, for any faction. Who knows, it might even be worth buying and sell well on the KDF side.
I'm still not sure it's good game design to lock players into certain playstyle choices just based on their faction. And while a little bit of it doesn't bother me, isolating ship classes or even creating relatively balanced and unique ship mechanics for a faction, or even a soft restriction of playstyle based around making certain options more expensive for one faction or another, like the current cost of a Plasmonic Leech on the exchange versus them being free to me just because I wanted to fly a Vandal once. But the exclusive consoles I thought went too far in that regard and generating Federation themed abilities to match in one aspect doesn't cover the other aspects. For instance, the Plasmonic Leech made certain aggressive drain builds work for a time. Upping the Maco Set to be equivalent but with a defensive element would not serve in the same capacity limiting those types of builds to the KDF.
That's why I fell on the other side of that debate. That and a cynical streak that told me an equivalent power would either never be made, or made but poorly balanced that it would render Plasmonic Leech obsolete, given Cryptic's tendency to over power and then tune backwards if at all.
All water under the bridge now that the decisions have been made and the situation is over. Thanks though, this thread started with one walk down memory lane, and now has taken me to another. Really goes to show, I've been playing this game a long time.
Wow still stuck on the whole clothing angle when it was an EXAMPLE not the issue. Small minds. It's a matter of there is so much combined left out of the KDF side let alone Romulan.
So no KDF is not complete, it never was and still isn't even since they launched.
Actually... the real issue KDF has is that they have a LOT of species specific clothing options. Sure people are familiar with the Female Orion options, but Nausicaans and male Orions also have items that only they can use. Maybe more, I forget. It makes the KDF options seem less than what they are.
As for incompleteness... Feds have the ignominious distinction of having a FREE race option that does not exist in Boff form... at all. You can get Benzites from security team, or make an Alien look like one, but you can't actually recruit a Benzite Boff.
Comments
Yeah.. I was thinking about going with Gorn on it. Just couldn't think of a name for it.
So I went with Orion. and well Syndicate Science Support... it just kind of fit perfectly for what I was aiming for.
Uh huh.
Mmhmm...
Fascinating.
Not really in the post you're responding to.
That's not what I asked people to tell me.
This thread had a very simple goal. From people who felt the KDF was incomplete I wanted to know what would be necessary, what would be needed, for them to feel like the faction is complete. And then I wanted to know why they felt that was necessary. I wished to understand this because what seems pretty clear to me, that the KDF has enough content and development to be considered a complete faction, is just as clearly not the case to them.
Now admittedly, it was partially my fault too. I assumed you were attempting to answer the question raised in the original thread, doubly my fault for assuming you would understand the difference between the faction being complete and the faction being satisfying to you personally. I mean sure, I explained the difference in my original post, and you claimed to have read the original post, but that's still no reason to assume you were trying to contribute, instead of attempting to hijack my thread for some other, unexplained purpose.
I would just say, as a parting bit of advice before I move on to more informed and intelligent responders, while you don't have to justify attempts to hijack my thread, it's still considered polite to not try to hijack threads. And pass it along to the kid trying to get people to comment on his fan created science vessel.
Not 'done,' I said 'complete.' They are actually two different words.
com·plete
adjective
1.
having all the necessary or appropriate parts.
Where as 'done' in this context would mean something more along the lines of finished.
Which I explained in the original post, in fact I even said...
Ah yes. I hope that explains your confusion and leaves you in a position to contribute more thoughtfully on the topic. In fact, you're the first person on this thread to mention the lack of Nausicaan, Lethean and Gorn females. While I maintain we have Gorn females already, and they just lack the sexual dimorphism we see in primates, still it's at least a new perspective.
Would you consider female Nausicaans, Lethean and Gorn to be an essential part of a complete KDF?
the problem with that is they are essentially rehashed fed episodes from DS9 - breen arc, sure there are reasons for it but frankly past level 38 ish the klingons stop feeling unique.
while its true end game has turned into multi-faction missions I think there needs to be a complete redo of DS9 missions for both fed and klingon and perhaps a few with the breen the rest is okay as far as im concerned.
I wish they elaborated on the felkhri a bit more than they did seeing as they're supposed to be pawns of the iconians or something or they were created by the iconians either way as important as it is to Klingon lore etc it should of had more episodes.
as for the ships... eh... dont even go there.. "tactical bortasqu" doesn't even feel tactical lol
You can't be serious can you? You really want another faction that will again limit development to the existing factions? You want to play through all the cross faction missions again on another character in another faction? Do the grind again to level 60, do all the rep and all the specializations and R&D?
The KDF is far from complete. The complete lack of science ships, missing carrier, missing Bird of Preys and another couple of Raptors. The half arsed Federation copy and paste missions in the Cardassian/Dominion arc?
I'd rather see them devote time to turning all the cross faction missions into faction unique missions. Give all the existing ones to the Federation (which they were written for) and make new Romulan and Klingon ones for those factions that tie in with the story. Make unique ships for each faction rather than this large bundles of copy and paste ships for all 3 factions. Bring some uniqueness back to the game that makes it worthwhile to roll characters in more than one faction. Give some goodies to the KDF and Romulans to encourage those fed only players to widen the scope and actually play the game, the whole game not just part of it.
Lets face it, they aren't going to get a whole bunch of new players anytime soon, why not satisfy the players who have supported this game for years, the ones who are getting sick and fed up (well that has been there for 3-4 years now) of the incompleteness of the KDF. Give the Romulans the love they deserve too.
Say NO to more factions.
What I want isn't the question. What will happen is what will happen, and based on Cryptic's history and what has recently been said, we are more likely that we'll see a fourth faction than we are to not.
I see you didn't read the whole post you quoted. That's discouraging.
Okay, so as I said to another poster earlier, that's a wishlist of things you want. That's fine, it's a good start. Now take one of those things, and really think about why it's essential for a working KDF faction.
Because, as I explained to another poster earlier, that's what complete means. As an adjective it simply means it has all of it's essential parts.
Picking one that's specific, but not going to be addressed by the roll-out of Tier-6 ships. Why are unique stories in the Cardassian/Dominion arc essential parts of a working KDF faction? I know why you want them, hell, I want them, but you're not being asked what you want, you're being asked what you think is necessary. So do you think these are necessary and if so why?
Well, it's easy to say that there's no Federation '********' because as I mentioned before, that is all long in the past now. All of that was done many months ago now, especially once lockboxes appeared, and started trading consoles, then only got worse from there.
While you are technically correct in that there is no Fed Raider with battle cloak, you can still get the Aquarius which is a raider, and 'sorta' get battle cloaks by making a Fed-Rom. It's indirect, you cannot just outright go to a shipyard and simply 'get' a Fed BoP as it were. And honestly, I REALLY doubt they will ever release a 'true' Fed BoP, because something in my gut tells me that it would NOT sell.
Now, I did decide to give your question some thought, and my answer is thus:
Yes, I do think the KDF is 'complete'. I remember all the months and such of never getting squat, at all, having to start at level 21, and so on. With LoR, even with the KDF being a 'footnote' in that expansion, they were given 1-50 leveling at long last, among other things.
I'm not really against even getting basically the same ships released for all three factions (thought I am against the sheer COST of such a thing, but that's for it's own thread), more that...anytime they make a ship that isn't part of a cross-faction bundle, it's only been Feds pretty much.
I'd rather see KDF get some ships, even copy-paste work (though I'd prefer not to only see that), then no ships at all. A somewhat parity by having at least the same ships on all sides is way better than a total focus on only one faction. To speculate for a moment, making the same ship for all three factions might be the ONLY way they can make it work.
I suppose what irks me is more that Feds are the only ones to get their own ships sometimes, while KDF and Roms don't get anything. What was the last ship either of those factions that does NOT have a direct Fed equivalant? Far as I can remember, that one tactical Warbird for Roms (the name escapes me) that apparently didn't sell well at first, so they slapped a hangar on it, and for KDF...hmmm...honestly, I can't remember.
As I said in my previous post: If they don't want to give KDF a tier 6 science ship for whatever reason, fine. But by no means do I think that means they should ONLY constantly keep giving the KDF (and really as well, Roms) cruiser after cruiser, as the game is OVERLY flooded with them (hell, Fed-wise is flooded with cruisers as well). Seriously, I am PRAYING that the pilot ships, when released, are escorts/raptors/escort-esque warbirds.
As an aside for a sec: I'd rather buy a three-pack of tier 6 ships, one PER faction, irregardless of whether or not they were the same ship basically for only 6,000 zen, then a nine-pack of the same ship for 12,000, as that is just insane. I like playing all three factions, but it's very hard to justify spending that much cash on what are basically the same ship for all three factions. But only 6,000 zen for a mere 3 ships, to give something to all my characters without breaking the bank? I can get behind that more honestly. And yes, I'm basically griping about the Command ship bundle.
Okay then...they're incomplete...
With that said, the KDF needs most of the canon ships upgraded to T6. Not new ships, just upgrades to make them more enticing to play. A few have been done but getting to the B'rel, Vo'quv and Varanus as T6 needs to happen soon. The Fek revamp has been mentioned and I think its on their schedule.
I've held Cryptic's feet to the fire often and am generally unimpressed with the staff comments around here with the notable exception of Salami and one or two others but I think, eventually, they came around to filling the KDF out for the most part. The incoming graphics upgrade for the KDF will be most welcomed.
Wait... what? The Aquarius isn't a raider. Last I checked it doesn't cloak at all (never mind battle cloak), has a worse turn rate, doesn't have full universal BOff slots, and doesn't get the flanking bonus. It has the raider's six weapon slots, vulnerability, and some universal slots... that's it. All the bad, none of the good.
By that logic the KDF is good to go since the B'rel can slot a science commander and has six weapons just like a Fed science ship so it's all the same...
EDIT:
My mistake, forgot they added flanking. So it's just missing full unis, turn rate and any kind of innate cloak, never mind battle cloak. So... it's still not a real BoP substitute any more or less than a BoP is a SCI ship substitute.
First off, I didn't say no Federation ********, I said less Federation ********. In fact, I was there for the Federation "********" and the only times it happened were for overbalancing consoles that provided a 'unique feel' to KDF play by giving them a huge advantage. Things like the Plasmonic leech. And it was never universal, some Federation players would demand things for the sake of parity, other Federation players would come along and say, "We don't need that powerful console that gives the KDF an undeniable edge over us, we've got our Omega set which is not as impressive, combining the two would be overpowered, maybe we should get a different overpowered console to provide unique balance." Clearly development went a different direction.
Oh, also the occasional cloaking fed ship thread, usually made by yours truly with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek and while borrowing all the tropes of the equivalent KDF science vessel threads. I was quite the crusader for faction uniqueness in my day, not that most people noticed. And the fed carrier threads, which were legitimate hopes by paying fans with canon backing who routinely got crapped on by angry KDF players.
Now, the reasoning for this isn't that Federation players are just better people, how could they be when I am a KDF player. The reason for this is that the incomplete state of the KDF faction at launch has bred a certain culture of demand, entitlement and whining within the Klingon community that is just accepted as a necessity or out of habit. The wheel was squeaking away, trying to just get some damned grease for so long, that people stopped noticing that it kept squeaking even after they greased it, even when that greasy wheels barrels its way into an unrelated thread to try to hold development hostage to its demands.
As for the Fed-BoP, I imagine it would sell to about the same percentage of players on the Federation side that the Bird of Prey sells to on the KDF side because curiosity and play style are not faction exclusive. From my understanding that means it would sell less than the cruisers, and escorts, and about the same as the science vessels or odd specialty ships like the Atrox. But bear in mind, that still means it would out sell every KDF ship on the zen store. That they still haven't done it encourages me that they may actually take faction uniqueness seriously, even when most players treat faction identity like an excuse to not share their toys while failing to notice the irony of asking for all of his toys.
As for what you said in regards to faction completion, and needing a wider range of ship options at Tier-6, I actually agree with all of it. I'm just willing to put my indignation on hold while Tier-6 ships are still being gradually rolled out. In another thread, and another time, I might have something to say on it. This thread though is for the people who say the KDF is incomplete so I can understand why they don't see that the KDF today is in a better state than the Federation at launch.
I haven't said this enough to the few people who actually thought about the state of the faction and provided a thoughtful response, but thank you. Unfortunately this thread really isn't for you, which is why I haven't been responding to these kinds of posts.
I certainly agree that all factions need more Tier-6 options. The Federation of course is closer to having enough Tier-6 options than the KDF or Romulan Republic, particularly in that they have T-6 options for three distinct classes of ships. But I don't think this is really a fair variable to look at when deciding the current state of a faction since Tier-6 ships themselves are still in a relative early stage of development. Another year down the road, my opinion will change, for now though I don't think Tier-6 ships should be part of the discussion.
Still, generally I would agree. The KDF is complete. The Republic however; that's another story. :P I'm against a Borg Faction; I always have been and I always will be. I think Cardassians should be next in line anyway, but even if they were done, I'd still be against the Borg.
When you bear in mind that KDF alts make up 16% of the population (at the last count) the faction is VERY well off.
We've got a decent range of T6 ships; even counting the command cruiser 3-pack as a single ship, it's 5 KDF vs 9 Starfleet. Not bad given the numbers. KDF still have the only T6 destroyer - the Mat'ha, as much as certain elements of the community decry it, is a wonderfully faction-appropriate ship.
There is a full mission set. I admit to having only just played it fully for the first time, but it's got outstanding theme episodes in the Empire / Warzone and Fek'lhri arcs that are the equal of anything in Pocket Books' novels; which is more than can be said for most of the game's content. Even most of the reheated stuff is not too bad;
KDF DOffing blows the pants off the Fed experience. Not just the dil farm aspect, but all those high-XP missions have become incredibly useful in the current paradigm. Most of those 150-odd spec points on my KDF alts have come from DOffing over 6 months. Who needs patrol grinds? Ironically, not Klingons.
The *only* issue I have with the faction "as is" is the lack of a T6 Carrier and BoP. Birds of Prey are the iconic Klingon ships and if there is one thing that makes it feel like someone at Cryptic hates the faction, it is the fact that we haven't had a new one since 2012. I actually disagree vehemently with the "Must have KDF Sci Ship!" crowd; that is just asking for Fed copypasta. STO had it right at the start when the Sci-heavy Klingon option was the carrier - different, appropriate, useful. We need a T6 sci-carrier before a Sci ship.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Fascinating that you think you're entitled to riddle me something when I'm still waiting for your answer. But okay, the phrasing of your question is a bit confusing.
You are either asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF has today. Or you are asking if the Federation would be considered a complete faction if they were launched with what the KDF had at launch.
If your question is the former, then yes. The Federation in fact WERE launched with less content than the KDF has now, less ships, less missions, less uniform options, and they were considered a complete faction.
If your question is the later, then no. But then again, nobody considered the KDF completed at launch, the question is how many people consider them incomplete now and why, a question you've still failed to answer.
Now, back to the topic at hand, why do you feel that a dahar masters robe is essential for the KDF to be considered a complete faction? Most people I know accepted the developer statement that the graphics on it didn't work with the player skeleton and they moved on.
Wow still stuck on the whole clothing angle when it was an EXAMPLE not the issue. Small minds. It's a matter of there is so much combined left out of the KDF side let alone Romulan.
So no KDF is not complete, it never was and still isn't even since they launched.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I'm not stuck on the clothing thing, I'm trying to make this simpler for you because you've shown yourself to be incapable of focusing on the questions asked when more than one issue shows up to distract you.
Now, thank you for asserting your opinion again, but I don't need to know what you feel again because I read that in your first post, the one where you laughed at me, the half dozen people who vocally agreed with me, and the countless others who agree with me but haven't bothered to read or post in this thread, for disagreeing with you. But unless you can make a good faith effort to explain WHY disagreeing with you is laughable in this one topic, then the the stark rudeness and ineptitude of your communications will forever outweigh the explanatory benefit. Make your lack of maturity and manners worth putting up with, or even a TRIBBLE like me is going to move on.
I know that might sound harsh, but I have a feeling that blunt and plainspoken are the best way you learn.
they cared only for honor and glory.. there was even a few episodes that showcased a scientific Klingon, and he talked about how it wasn't easy being a scientist in his race, that there was not a lot of support for it.
spock even spoke about how they did not have the resources to combat saving their own planet as they put so much into military and defense..
adding too much to the klinks would make them less trek in my mind..
I've read some stupid posts in this forum. This ranks up there among the best of those.
There are many canon uniform items not included in the KDF. All while the Feds even have a stupid racing uniform. Uniform items missing from TOS. Uniform items missing from TNG/DS9 era. Uniforms from the TOS movie era. Uniform items even from STO's "modern" KDF NPCs that players cannot use.
The Klingons knew what they were doing in the IP. They maintained their political and military power, was able to maintain an arms race with the Federation and Romulan Star Empire and even engaged in wars with them. The Klingon military was of course a major factor in the devastating Dominion War, and I remind you, when the Breen Energy Dissipation crippled Starfleet & Romulan vessels, it didnt' affect Klingon vessels. Until a fix was discovered, the Klingon military shouldered the entire Dominion War effort alone against the Cardassians, Dominion, and the Breen, buying time for the alliance. Throughout that war, the Klingons were a major contributor and the Founders strove hard to drive a wedge to break up the Federation-Klingon alliance.
You do not engage in an arms race with the technologically savvy Federation if you didn't have the means to advance your own technology as well as the shipbuilding capacity to maintain that fleet.
When a Federation-Klingon War was shown as a possibility in TNG, guess who was winning? The Klingons. Both times when it was shown.
Here's another fun one:
The TV shows and movies have showcased 7 ships to carry the USS Enterprise name.
NX-01
NCC-1701
NCC-1701A thru E
One can say that whatever ship carried the name "Enterprise" was among the fleet's best in terms of ship class and crew quality.
Three of these Enterprise ships were lost during or as a result of combat.
Two of those Enterprise lost were as a result of an engagement with a Klingon B'Rel-class Bird of Prey. Not to some battleship. Not to some Omnipotent Power. A simple B'Rel.
First off...it is a Raider...they made it one a while back...pre DR. It has flanking and you can equip the cloaking device console from the Defiant/Gal-X. It has all universal except for the Commander which is Tac.
Second off...you're F-ing Starfleet...you shouldn't even have anything called a Raider...all you do is steal everything everyone else has...even the most anti-federation ship...even the name is anti-federation but they call it a *light escort*.
God forbid you don't have battlecloak...the breen ship doesn't even have regular cloak so consider yourself lucky.
The Aquarius only has a few less points of turn rate than most bops, but it has a slightly stronger hull and superior shields which would rival or surpass most escorts.
So you have your raider and it is a raider and makes a much better raider than a BoP makes a Science ship.
I figure I may as well do it before some hater does...but...both times that happened the ships were at a major disadvantage.
The Enterprise was at a disadvantage...you could count the amount of crew it had with your hands and wasn't she in for repairs or something when the stole her from the dock?
The Enterprise D...she was at a major disadvantage...they had their shield frequency...modulation or whatever it was called and they were able to pierce her shields with their weapons.
Though to be clear I'm not saying it's a bad ship or anything...I doubt Martok would of spent a lot of time in one if it wasn't up to par as a ship class
For one, he's not advocating that the Federation receive a battle cloak, he's correcting another poster who tried to pass the Aquarius off as an equivalent to the Bird of Prey as part of a larger discussion about whether ship classifications should be unique, the Aquarius is not an equivalent to the Bird of Prey.
For second, he's not Federation, he's a player on an MMO.
For third, development of an equivalent ship or ability by the developers is not theft, nothing has been taken from you.
For fourth, this is the second time you've been caught jumping in and yelling at someone without having read the conversation. It reflects poorly on the people who might share your point of view and weakens your argument by making you easy to refute and dismiss. Ofcourse, that would only matter if you were actually forwarding an argument, since you seem content not doing that, maybe I'm wrong and you're doing the best you can.
KDF to Player: Shut up. Just shut up. You had me at hello.
I remember those threads as well. Often times I feel that they more demanded KDF things than not. Perhaps that is an old bias as a KDF player, who knows. One big argument I remember in regards to Plasmonic for Feds to NOT get it was the MACO space set when the STF system was first released. It provided a more 'defensive' (and thus kinda Fed-themed) way of gaining power by being shot at, compared to the more 'offensive' Plasmonic.
I still think that they should've given Feds other things to balance it out instead. Back around season 4/5/6, while things weren't perfect between the two, there was this kind of semi-balance in terms of what each faction was capable of. A 'checks and balances' system as it were. Klingons could cloak, had some of the unique 'toy' consoles, but had few options and learned to make do, compared to the Fed side who had many ships, could more easily detect cloaks, and so on.
I suppose looking back, what got me so infuriated once things started getting shipped to the Fed side, wasn't so much what was getting taken, but more that it was getting taken, the KDF were given nothing really worthwhile in return, AND I still saw Fed '********' threads despite everything they got.
Honestly, neither 'side' is better than the other side at this point. Irregardless of what happened in the past, all of us are at the 'mercy' of whoever is in charge feels like doing to the game. Be that Geko, or Salami, or some accountant, or anyone that is the 'real power' running the game. If they feel like making Mk XVI level equipment, and adjusting even Normal queues to be so difficult you HAVE to get that to have a chance of completing it, they can, and that'd TRIBBLE over EVERYONE, Fed, KDF, and Rom. But I'm getting off topic.
As for the Fed-raider, well, the Aquarius one could argue is TOO gimped to be a more 'proper' Raider ship. And it's high cost per character doesn't help matters. But I rarely see it, or the two 'universal' Raiders in the Breen and Kazon ones. I'm not saying that only Fed players don't want to fly one, but that the game doesn't support the playstyle that well anymore. I barely see anyone in a Raider, on any faction.
Indeed though. Especially the eventual release of the Pilot ships might get us something that ISN'T a cruiser of some kind, for any faction. Who knows, it might even be worth buying and sell well on the KDF side.
BS it isn't theft...SF and KDF were different...they each had their own unique play styles and ships...until Feds began whining like a kid in their terrible twos and slowly they started giving everything unique the KDF had to the Feds.
But did the KDF get anything in return? NO...no a damn thing.
Don't you think the KDF would design better Science vessels? Heavy Dreadnoughts with fighter support? Hell Escort carriers would be up the KDF's ally.
But no...none of that happened because they just stole what the KDF had and gave nothing back in return.
I'm still not sure it's good game design to lock players into certain playstyle choices just based on their faction. And while a little bit of it doesn't bother me, isolating ship classes or even creating relatively balanced and unique ship mechanics for a faction, or even a soft restriction of playstyle based around making certain options more expensive for one faction or another, like the current cost of a Plasmonic Leech on the exchange versus them being free to me just because I wanted to fly a Vandal once. But the exclusive consoles I thought went too far in that regard and generating Federation themed abilities to match in one aspect doesn't cover the other aspects. For instance, the Plasmonic Leech made certain aggressive drain builds work for a time. Upping the Maco Set to be equivalent but with a defensive element would not serve in the same capacity limiting those types of builds to the KDF.
That's why I fell on the other side of that debate. That and a cynical streak that told me an equivalent power would either never be made, or made but poorly balanced that it would render Plasmonic Leech obsolete, given Cryptic's tendency to over power and then tune backwards if at all.
All water under the bridge now that the decisions have been made and the situation is over. Thanks though, this thread started with one walk down memory lane, and now has taken me to another. Really goes to show, I've been playing this game a long time.
As for incompleteness... Feds have the ignominious distinction of having a FREE race option that does not exist in Boff form... at all. You can get Benzites from security team, or make an Alien look like one, but you can't actually recruit a Benzite Boff.
My character Tsin'xing