What is wrong with that statement? "I play how I want." Nothing, inherently.
If your team already has nothing but certifiable overkill builds, except for one or two people who don't... what is the point of them needing help? Who says that's the case?
You already have the mission in the bag. You've devoted lots of zen and purple stuff to getting that perfect build where nothing survives your presence. Hardly. I don't have anything higher than mk XII
So the issue is what? That you're being expected to carry someone who isn't willing to sink as much time and effort into their build as you are? Putting some time and effort into your build is like 95% of the non-RP aspect of the game, and can pay off tremendous dividends even for a RPer.
That they are somehow not contributing to the team fairly? If they can only deal a fraction of the DPS you do, but your DPS in turn functions as an effective additional two or three team members, what is the problem? It doesn't.
Your goal is to be able to crank out an ungodly amount of integers to the point where the hardest PvE content in the game still burns away quickly. What does it matter if Scrublord McPuggie is leeching? That's hardly my goal.
I understand there are several DPS channels, and that there is a "High DPS" subcommunity in game and on these forums, so... would not the very obvious choice be to exclude anyone not willing to fall into place? I would imagine people in those channels who just say, "I play how I want." would not last very long. I'm sure that's what most high dpsers already do, and that attitude doesn't last very long unless you can back it up by still being effective.
And if this is about public queues... well, I would just say "Buy the ticket, take the ride." So, back to a zero challenge game? Isn't that what the normal queues are for?
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"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I see a guy refering to himself in the third person, trying to dictate how people should play and that is what I commented on...
Being told what to do, is the opposite of playing a game, being free and being creative. I'd take equally offense if someone came on the forums and starting telling people they HAD to eRP or PVP.
That's what I call "fascism", you aren't free to be yourself and you get shot as a degenerate and outlaw if you think freely.
That is how you choke a game and that is how you ruin people's recreational time. If you've ever heard people talking about a game as a "job" that is exactly the point they are bringing up being dictate, drained and generally having your day ruined.
Nowhere have I said the dps fixators are responsible for the planning and execution of DR. I think that is a whole other discussion.
The game has always been casual and that was actually the core strength. Want to fly your favorite ship, in messed up hybrid builds you find likeable go ahead.
And when I say always I mean 4-5 years, or half a decade the game has been working on the same core principles.
That premise was broken.
And the reasoning being, they decided to pimp out all the whales buying "the emperor's new clothes", copy-paste text with no animations, for millions of dil - per character.
So not only was the gameplay ruined, the queues killed, the players robbed - they also sold out and abandoned and failed their own core premise of the game people had previously paid them for.
I don't think you can say enough bad things about the whole thing?
Then now, after the fact yes, the dps'ers should same as everyone else stand up for a better quality game - one that is not simple jack but rather gives people what they were asking for, better gameplay.
... and not just more shield health you can dil compensate for using millions of dil for upgrading.
I call that slaving and budget coding and frankly yes I might come off a bit condescending if all these here facts aren't painfully obvious to you.
I do believe the reference of "I" is a first person reference, not a third person reference.
Secondly they aren't advocating that everyone be up in the 100K+ bracket, but to have just a basic comprehension of gameplay. TBH the game is far too complex for the majority of Trek fans who are NOT gamers. There are far too many system and intricacies to learn to get the best out of a ship. However it doesn't take a lot to learn how to make a basic effective survivable build which can do damage. The Anniversary Event even gave that to players on a silver platter with the Kobali gear. There's more healing in that gear than anything else, not only that but it even heals teammates! Even back before DR, I found that most people were woefully inequipped to deal with the game and in the STF's which were by that point a cakewalk there would always be someone who thought they were Kirk and tried to faceroll it themselves.
You keep saying the game isn't what you paid for either. Fine get a refund if that's the case. However keep that point out of other threads which aren't addressing that. Bringing it up each time is very repetitive.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
So hop in ye olde time machine back to putzing around in early 2012...
Along comes S6 introducing Fleet ships, Fleet gear, etc. Oh man, they're going to introduce more difficult content to go with the new level of power! Oh...they're not.
Along comes S7 introducing the Rep System, more gear, and traits, etc. Oh man, they're going to introduce more difficult content to go with the new level of power! Oh...they're not.
LoR, S8, S8.5, S9, S9.5...yadda-yadda-yadda, even more and more and more power - going to introduce more difficult content? Nah...they didn't. Not only didn't they do that, they even nerfed a bunch of stuff along the way.
Second, all existing content, all new story content, patrols and most queues will not require a Tier 6 or Upgraded Tier 5 starship.
Only the most challenging new level 60 content will strongly benefit from using an upgraded Tier 5 starship or a Tier 6 starship, however it will not strictly require it.
Oh...er...k.
Aha, I see...one should likely try to avoid running HSE in a T5 9 console boat. Well, that's something, right?
From 2012 through the near the end of 2014, we've seen almost a geometrical progression in the amount of powercreep while content for the most part has actually been made easier...
...we've got oodles upon oodles of new shinies that allow us to run the same stuff we always ran (or new stuff added along the way at the same difficulty) - just faster and easier if we want.
But some folks, er, think the game has changed - that it's requiring folks do all sorts of things now...for content that's easier than it was when this little trip through time started?
Yeah, whatever color confused is...color me confused on that particular argument.
Fun fact: DPSers' ship do not have a single resist console equipped. Plus said ship sucks in PvP as it can only pwn NPCs, which are known for their extreme intelligence.
What I do most of the times is just challenge them to a PvP fight and bang, they're exploding soon after. OP, ignore them. DPSers are less threatening than a Baku. All I see are a bunch of guys who can only take down NPCs honestly faster than average.
You have just proved with your above post PvP and PvE are totally separate games..............Bravo
That's why they need to be separated into different servers
PvP is so radically different it isn't even the same game so yes you have a tremendous advantage
But without changing anything on your ship can you and your team do as well as the top dps teams at infected............
No you cant period they will stomp you..end of story your pvp ships cant handle the content like theirs can...you would lose that challenge so bad it would be very embarrassing to you
On the other hand I have saw many PvP heros come to do STFs with us and apologize for blowing up so much until they changed out 3/4 of there ship
apples and oranges
your boasts is meaningless its 2 different games
And im not a DPSer........................
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Putting some time and effort into your build is like 95% of the non-RP aspect of the game, and can pay off tremendous dividends even for a RPer.
unless you can back it up by still being effective.
This is where my confusion still persists. The definition of "effective" is lost in translation. There are people who think "effective" means simply not getting blown up while others concentrate on actually cranking out DPS. Some think "effective" means playing like they do, meaning "moar DPS!!!", and still others may have different definitions entirely.
You don't need to compete with high DPSers to get through game content. You only need to compete with high DPSers if you want an invite to one of their DPS channels.
I do not think anybody can universally agree upon the definition of "effective". If people expect it to revolve around a certain amount of DPS, then you will just find people pointing out that whatever mission content people are doing can be "effectively" done with an arbitrary amount of DPS.
It is why I find these debates between PvP elitists and PvE elitists so hilarious.
Neither side of the 'debate' has any particularly high ground to stand on, since both Cryptic's AI and Cryptic's PvP mechanics are both uninspired and lackluster compared to other titles out there.
Someone mentioned PvP was like racing bicycles with flat tires. Someone else mentioned PvE was like an enclosed hunting range where you are pretty much "guaranteed" a kill because there is nothing real sporting about any of it.
Someone mentioned PvP was like racing bicycles with flat tires. Someone else mentioned PvE was like an enclosed hunting range where you are pretty much "guaranteed" a kill because there is nothing real sporting about any of it.
Neither perspective is particularly wrong.
Good Hill Hunting is a pretty epic episode of King of the Hill.
Good Hill Hunting is a pretty epic episode of King of the Hill.
Yes, and you aren't wrong. Honestly, these pissing contests between PvP elitists and PvE elitists come across more like a South Park episode than King of the Hill.
Cripple Fight comes to mind. That's how I see it when I consider there are MMOs out there that are:
A- Focused primarily on a PvP aspect, which means closer attention paid to things like PvP balance, PvP mechanics, power creep, player retention, "e-sports", leaderboards, tournaments, dev-hosted challenges, exclusive prizes, etc.
B- Focused primarily on challenging AI, which means closer attention paid to the level of difficulty (not just souping up hitpoint numbers, although that can be an aspect, just not the defining one), more engaging and immersive gameplay. Dynamic and adaptive AI. NPC game mechanics that cause you to do something else other than just shoot things in the head for an hour.
STO is not the cream of the crop when it comes to either. So to have people beat their chests over either aspect of the game is... well, it's just sad.
Even accounting for some variances between players, your telling that the best of the best cannon player is 28% as good as the top beam player? Okay so a sample of one is kinda small, lets look at what the top DPS runs with beams are like then. 120k seems to be what they are hitting now. Top cannons runs...40k. So cannon players are 30% as good as beam players? Or how about a fleetmate who went from cannons to beams and suddenly DOUBLED his DPS (and not just in ISA). I don't care WHO wins the DPS race...but when the winner has such a large gap...yeah it is a bit of an issue. Seriously, the fact that the people of this forum can't see that I would say is shocking...but at this point, I kinda expect this. Oh no, somebody is actually making a good case to nerf what I like to use...kill it with fire before logic spreads in this forum...pah, like that would ever happen. Don't worry, your precious beams are safe.
While our premise is sound, your proposed solution is not.
Why would you have those that use Beams nerfed? Would it not make more sense to have Cannons boosted to a competitive level?
When players like you come to the forum and ask for nerfs you will be hit with massive resistance even if your point is valid. Lets face it, the absolute LAST thing STO needs are any more nerfs, they have already nerfed far too much.
When one method is viable, and the alternative method sucks, it's completely insane to propose the idea of reducing the viability of the proven method. What's your end game here? to make both methods suck?
IF you're unhappy with Cannon performance then fine.. lobby to have them boosted. Your request to have everyone else brought down to your level is unacceptable. The best way to close the gap is to increase the viability of Cannons. They can start with increasing the firing arc and base damage.
Even accounting for some variances between players, your telling that the best of the best cannon player is 28% as good as the top beam player? Okay so a sample of one is kinda small, lets look at what the top DPS runs with beams are like then. 120k seems to be what they are hitting now. Top cannons runs...40k. So cannon players are 30% as good as beam players? Or how about a fleetmate who went from cannons to beams and suddenly DOUBLED his DPS (and not just in ISA). I don't care WHO wins the DPS race...but when the winner has such a large gap...yeah it is a bit of an issue. Seriously, the fact that the people of this forum can't see that I would say is shocking...but at this point, I kinda expect this. Oh no, somebody is actually making a good case to nerf what I like to use...kill it with fire before logic spreads in this forum...pah, like that would ever happen. Don't worry, your precious beams are safe.
How can you say there is large gap? Did the cannon player even had sufficient support? That 180k had support specific for that run. When you look at the 180k run, thats compose of players all in the top 10 all with excellent knowledge of pve mechanics.
When you want to compare cannon and beam optimal conditions you need Felisean to run the cannons with the same group pf support players not your fleetmate nor a pvper used to doing pvp rather than pve. Because just looking at Ryans parse on Fleet Patrol, if i take all his beam dps excluding the cutting beam, you will still get around 100K DPS. So if you add cannon DPS, you can literally push a cannon boat beyond 100k DPS.
Besides, we are talking luxury when torps and cannons at its current state can do all content.
You have just proved with your above post PvP and PvE are totally separate games..............Bravo
That's why they need to be separated into different servers
PvP is so radically different it isn't even the same game so yes you have a tremendous advantage
But without changing anything on your ship can you and your team do as well as the top dps teams at infected............
No you cant period they will stomp you..end of story your pvp ships cant handle the content like theirs can...you would lose that challenge so bad it would be very embarrassing to you
On the other hand I have saw many PvP heros come to do STFs with us and apologize for blowing up so much until they changed out 3/4 of there ship
apples and oranges
your boasts is meaningless its 2 different games
And im not a DPSer........................
Not quite making two distinct servers; I can't imagine having to relog everytime, or stuff like that. Problem is Cryptic doesn't have control over the metagame. If they had, we'd have way less issues. Look at ionic turbulence, in PvE is useless, stunning NPCs isn't helpful. In PvP instead it was a death sentence. What they did, finally, was adjusting the flight location (so that it doesn't track you), extending the immunity time by 20 seconds in PvP to avoid too long stuns.
Same goes for Viral Torpedo, with its double tap issue. You could slot two of them and make the opponent disabled for even 10 seconds.
Neutronic was broken, and it is getting fixed with the next patch. It had incorrect variables that, with torpedo spread, made it go right through a ship shields.
Waiting for a Surgical nerf now. Then PvP will be playable again.
This is where my confusion still persists. The definition of "effective" is lost in translation. There are people who think "effective" means simply not getting blown up while others concentrate on actually cranking out DPS. Some think "effective" means playing like they do, meaning "moar DPS!!!", and still others may have different definitions entirely.
So? Learn the game's mechanics, and find a way to bring a reasonable amount of DPS while doing whatever it is you enjoy doing.
You don't need to compete with high DPSers to get through game content. You only need to compete with high DPSers if you want an invite to one of their DPS channels.
There's plenty of room between effective and making it into the higher DPS channels.
High DPS players might scoff at some themed builds, but I can't see why most themed builds couldn't reach effective levels of DPS.
I do not think anybody can universally agree upon the definition of "effective".
There are minimum DPS amounts needed to complete certain objectives, just as there are cases where non-DPS abilities are useful or necessary to complete other objectives. What's so hard about putting in a little effort for the benefit of the whole team, that people get so upset about?
Why would you even join a public queue if you want to play like it's a single player game?
Or just be bad, and blame the DPSer when your STFs fail.
Actually, you should blame DPSers anyway; FAW meta is terrible.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Simple, you compared a PvE Optimized build to PvP, an environment far different to what its optimized for. Its like using a Striker as a goal keeper, or to make the analogy more sound, a football player to a tennis player. Those are different playstyles, different trainings etc. etc.
Apples and oranges, and for the germans:
Not quite making two distinct servers; I can't imagine having to relog everytime, or stuff like that. Problem is Cryptic doesn't have control over the metagame. If they had, we'd have way less issues. Look at ionic turbulence, in PvE is useless, stunning NPCs isn't helpful. In PvP instead it was a death sentence. What they did, finally, was adjusting the flight location (so that it doesn't track you), extending the immunity time by 20 seconds in PvP to avoid too long stuns.
Same goes for Viral Torpedo, with its double tap issue. You could slot two of them and make the opponent disabled for even 10 seconds.
Neutronic was broken, and it is getting fixed with the next patch. It had incorrect variables that, with torpedo spread, made it go right through a ship shields.
Waiting for a Surgical nerf now. Then PvP will be playable again.[/QUOTE]
tribble server
red shirt server
holodeck server
Don't we already have them ? maybe im missing something here ?
viral torpedo and surgical strikes isn't a issue or a complaint in PvE
Beam overload wasn't a issue now we have a dead skill in PvE so beam users have 1 ability now Bfaw
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I am trying to not get involved in these PvE DPS E-Peen Wizards vs. PvP Vapecloak Kings debates, but on this I really have to genuinely ask.
What is wrong with that statement? "I play how I want."
What is really wrong is that "I play how I want" often leads to subpar builds.
Because there is just too much useless TRIBBLE and noob traps in the game.
Imagine a hypothetical Tier 6 build like this:
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I , Tactical Team II
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I
Emergency Power to Auxilliary I, Emergency Power to Engines II, Aux2Dampeners II, Boarding Party III
Engineering Team I, Aux2Dampeners I, Directed Energy Modulation I
Polarize Hull I, Tractor Beam II, Viral Matrix I
The build seems to be designed around speed and maneuverability tha. Seems like something someone might want to try. But it would be useless in PvE or PvP. It's only purpose in PvP would be to run away as fast as it can, but it would likely be blowing up by a vaper decloaking within the activation time of its run-away abilities!
In PVE, it could fly circles around ... Nanite Transformers? Cubes? For what good purpose? It could try to intercept Nanine Spheres, except - what would it do when there?
The few offensive powers it has - they are known to be terrible. Players and NPCs can practically ignore them if they get hit by them, or automatically dispel them with their regular power rotation.
It has two skills slotted at higher rank than you'd ever need.
But it's a build that you could easily come up with and, heck, maybe the random assortment of BOFFs you have got you these skills and you thought it was a fun build (running around in a huge cruiser and flying circles at top speed sure is fun!). But there is not a single spot in the game where this build would be useful.
Why? Why can't it offer at least some viability? Why is it light years away from optimization, rather than just a few tweaks?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Actually, you should blame DPSers anyway; FAW meta is terrible.
Ohh dont worry, they are the blame, along with the devs, for this pile of TRIBBLE that is DR.
This whole situation is in fact the inability and failure of DPSers to adapt to a current situation. I remember a year or two ago when they went into PvP and storm everything for a night or two. Then the PvPers adapt and kicked their asses. And what happened? Did they stayed in PvP, where a true challange was? No, they hided back into PvE slaughtering mindless NPCs and padd their back how "great and skilled" they are. And then cry to Cryptic they want to be challenged
This is obvious today aswell. On another thread some1 was describing an ISA where they lost becouse one DPSer went to the other side, wich he failed, then blamed the team for the failure... If he wouldve adapt to the team, to the current situation, and not what he normaly played in the DPS chanels, maybe they wouldve failed.
Sadly this idiotic trend started in grounds too. A few days ago, did a BHE. One of the team mates I noticed was excesivly buffing, I belive via keybinds too, and allways rushing in the "walls", with an AP weapon of course. We allmost lost since at the 3rd alarm bug he rushed and pop it too early. And not even killing it. Luckly I manage to kill the next one. And that guy didnt went after it btw, was just shooting mindlessly. At finish, he posted his parser, and he went on my iggy list ofc. Even more sad thing is he no doubt was very convinged he was ahead of his game, very skilled and an "awesome" player. But in fact he was just an idiot, with a complete lack of awareness of his surroundings, his team mates and the curent situation and pourly skilled towards just offence (I had to pop motivation twice just for him to heal him becouse he was about to die).
Back to space, I sure hope BFAW beta and over crits and AP gets nerfed. And cannons put back on same lvl with beams.
Maybe with the new STF elites, the iconians will have AP res and hopely Crit immunity (I think from AD&D 3 or 3.5 rules some bosses have that). And hopely Flanck immunity. How stupid is that to stay on the head of a boss and call it flanking
What is really wrong is that "I play how I want" often leads to subpar builds.
Because there is just too much useless TRIBBLE and noob traps in the game.
Imagine a hypothetical Tier 6 build like this:
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I , Tactical Team II
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I
Emergency Power to Auxilliary I, Emergency Power to Engines II, Aux2Dampeners II, Boarding Party III
Engineering Team I, Aux2Dampeners I, Directed Energy Modulation I
Polarize Hull I, Tractor Beam II, Viral Matrix I
The build seems to be designed around speed and maneuverability tha. Seems like something someone might want to try. But it would be useless in PvE or PvP. It's only purpose in PvP would be to run away as fast as it can, but it would likely be blowing up by a vaper decloaking within the activation time of its run-away abilities!
In PVE, it could fly circles around ... Nanite Transformers? Cubes? For what good purpose? It could try to intercept Nanine Spheres, except - what would it do when there?
The few offensive powers it has - they are known to be terrible. Players and NPCs can practically ignore them if they get hit by them, or automatically dispel them with their regular power rotation.
It has two skills slotted at higher rank than you'd ever need.
But it's a build that you could easily come up with and, heck, maybe the random assortment of BOFFs you have got you these skills and you thought it was a fun build (running around in a huge cruiser and flying circles at top speed sure is fun!). But there is not a single spot in the game where this build would be useful.
Why? Why can't it offer at least some viability? Why is it light years away from optimization, rather than just a few tweaks?
But thats the main problem right there. Why these builds are been labeled subpar build, useless TRIBBLE skills and such? Becouse of the huge imbalance in the game. Everything has been "balanced" for the idiotic BFAW/BETA metagame... When Spheres got EPTE that Target Engines maybe wouldve worked, if the said spheres werent getting stuck in the gate. I advocated then it was the wrong skill and still stand by it. If EPtS was given to them, then a drain build wouldve been effective. Any1 even uses omega space set 2 pc anymore?? I remember even sugesting to give cloak to the borgified bops in Cure, so a sci snooper wouldve been required... But instaid we got the ridiculous situation where the smallest ships in that map, the bops, have like 10 times:eek: more HP then a player's ship
That's why I point them out? Why are these skills allowed to be so crappy? Why isn't there anything in the game that you require them for? Why is their effect so negligible?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
"Even accounting for some variances between players, your telling that the best of the best cannon player is 28% as good as the top beam player? Okay so a sample of one is kinda small, lets look at what the top DPS runs with beams are like then. 120k seems to be what they are hitting now. Top cannons runs...40k. So cannon players are 30% as good as beam players? Or how about a fleetmate who went from cannons to beams and suddenly DOUBLED his DPS (and not just in ISA). I don't care WHO wins the DPS race...but when the winner has such a large gap...yeah it is a bit of an issue. Seriously, the fact that the people of this forum can't see that I would say is shocking...but at this point, I kinda expect this. Oh no, somebody is actually making a good case to nerf what I like to use...kill it with fire before logic spreads in this forum...pah, like that would ever happen. Don't worry, your precious beams are safe."
I've seen cannon builds get into the 50,000's, and I'm sure a few people can go higher. Beams still get better DPS, but cannons are more than good enough to complete all content in the game.
Also too, wait until the proposed nerfs go into effect. EAP and plasma doping account for a big part of those high scores (doping is about 1/3 of dps at those levels, and EAP is probably bigger but doesn't show up as an entry in a parser). I wouldn't be surprised if beam boats were benefiting more from those than cannon builds.
Let's see. He could read the /r/stobuilds wiki. Preuse the builds we've posted. Ask questions in dps-public, redditchat, or the other open public channels we're in. Ask us questions in-game. Watch the videos made to help them. Make a post asking for help. Our information isn't exactly hard to find. I, in fact, have links to two of those great resources in my signature for just such reasons.
In other words, the player has to put in TONS of effort because the game is totally inadequate to prepare the player. You know this is suppose to be a game for fun, right? Nobody wants to do a major research project just to play a game. If this was fully disclosed to new players do you think they would they gladly sign up?
NOTICE: Any attempt to get to the top of the game requires money and extensive research and development activities. It will be non-fun and requires out-of-game time. Additional software packages will be needed. Your goal will be to reverse-engineer the combat model. You will be expected to constantly pay for new gear. Prepare to be assimilated to the fanboi club.
At this point we need a set of single player benchmark maps, an in-game evaluation tool that models all possible setups, and a series of episodes that will help a player step up to the hardest content.
In other words, the player has to put in TONS of effort because the game is totally inadequate to prepare the player.
"TONS"...eh? Why are folks so melodramatic? You know, I've noticed that growing trend in the past few years - folks getting more and more flamboyant like that.
The fact is, if I want to join a PUG in an advanced STF in my Constitution class with rainbow beams I can. There's no reason why I shouldn't. It's a game, folks.
If you want to play with people with the same playing style as yourself then form a pre-made group. If you choose not to, you're at the mercy of new players with no idea how to play, trolls who want you to fail and people who actually play the game for FUN.
I'll see you all in ISA soon, in my Risian Corvette with nothing but rainbow mines and a mix of torpedoes.
Just out of curiosity, how does a player even figure how much time is spent on the elusive hunt for DPS?
It has warped my entire gameplay. Choices for ships, gear, maps, daily objectives, how resources are spent, conversation topics - pretty much everything.
And just look at me now, posting again instead of playing.
Just out of curiosity, how does a player even figure how much time is spent on the elusive hunt for DPS?
It has warped my entire gameplay. Choices for ships, gear, maps, daily objectives, how resources are spent, conversation topics - pretty much everything.
People shouldn't waste time and energy chasing some arbitrary standard invented by other players in a fit of ego so extreme that they think everyone should play exactly the same way they do.
If you want to play with people with the same playing style as yourself then form a pre-made group. If you choose not to, you're at the mercy of new players with no idea how to play, trolls who want you to fail and people who actually play the game for FUN.
"FUN"...? Feels like I just posted about this kind of embellished embellishment...the /facepalms with the cap words never get old, though I have to wonder if they can cause brain damage in the long run (given how my posts get stupider and stupider the more time I spend on the forums, maybe I need to layoff the forums for a bit to prevent further damage from the /facepalms)...
...but anyway, the fun thing - in the end it still comes down to the simple bit that it is a queue, where a group of players does something and gets some reward...thus the simple concept there is a group of folks working together to get that reward, yeah? Having fun while actually working toward that reward, right? Simple, no doubt?
So why is there that small group of folks giving the finger to everybody else while trying to play the victim?
Talk about having suffered some brain damage...meh...
People shouldn't waste time and energy chasing some arbitrary standard invented by other players in a fit of ego so extreme that they think everyone should play exactly the same way they do.
It's not a fit of ego, some do it for ego stroking yes, but some just want to find out the max possible out of curiosity. I've not seen massive ego's shown by Ezri-Ryan or Felisean (top two DPS holders currently), in fact both are very personable and willing to help players.
The only ego problems I've seen so far are those with a chip on their shoulder about people being a TRIBBLE load better than them.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
It's not a fit of ego, some do it for ego stroking yes, but some just want to find out the max possible out of curiosity. I've not seen massive ego's shown by Ezri-Ryan or Felisean (top two DPS holders currently), in fact both are very personable and willing to help players.
The only ego problems I've seen so far are those with a chip on their shoulder about people being a TRIBBLE load better than them.
The constant posting on these forums of DPS Bragging Videos undermines your argument.
Just out of curiosity, how does a player even figure how much time is spent on the elusive hunt for DPS?
It has warped my entire gameplay. Choices for ships, gear, maps, daily objectives, how resources are spent, conversation topics - pretty much everything.
And just look at me now, posting again instead of playing.
The thing I'd question there is...
If a person wants to do that, they want to chase DPS, then where is the issue in it? Are they not doing what they want to do?
If a person does not want to do that, they do not want to chase DPS, then why are they doing it? Are they not the cause of their own problem?
...does it get into some sort of herd mentality, eh? Is there some feeling of needing to keep up with folks, the fear of being left behind, and thus folks start doing stuff they don't want to do - leading to that underlying rage born of frustration that just ruins the game for them?
If somebody wants to do something, then it's a case of looking at what needs to be done to do that, yeah? If they don't care beyond that, then they don't care - right?
Along the lines of...
I want to do ISA. What's the minimum I need to do there? What kind of padding might I want to have a better chance at a fun 'n successful run? Cool...done.
I don't care about doing a 1-minute ISA. I don't care about doing 100k DPS. I'm not going to bother looking into doing any of that sort of stuff, I'm not going to put any effort, time, resources, etc into that.
...it's just a case of looking into what I want to do, eh?
I simply do not get why some folks out there get so worked up about stuff that they really don't care about, but suddenly it's taken on some huge meaning in their gameplay - warping it as you said. TRIBBLE that, this is a game, yeah?
I'll try to make sure any build I run doesn't mess things up for folks in any team things, but other than that...wheee, it's a game - I'm just wasting some time and trying to have a bit of fun, no?
Seems to me, some folks out there just take this stuff all sorts of way too serious.
Comments
I do believe the reference of "I" is a first person reference, not a third person reference.
Secondly they aren't advocating that everyone be up in the 100K+ bracket, but to have just a basic comprehension of gameplay. TBH the game is far too complex for the majority of Trek fans who are NOT gamers. There are far too many system and intricacies to learn to get the best out of a ship. However it doesn't take a lot to learn how to make a basic effective survivable build which can do damage. The Anniversary Event even gave that to players on a silver platter with the Kobali gear. There's more healing in that gear than anything else, not only that but it even heals teammates! Even back before DR, I found that most people were woefully inequipped to deal with the game and in the STF's which were by that point a cakewalk there would always be someone who thought they were Kirk and tried to faceroll it themselves.
You keep saying the game isn't what you paid for either. Fine get a refund if that's the case. However keep that point out of other threads which aren't addressing that. Bringing it up each time is very repetitive.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Along comes S6 introducing Fleet ships, Fleet gear, etc. Oh man, they're going to introduce more difficult content to go with the new level of power! Oh...they're not.
Along comes S7 introducing the Rep System, more gear, and traits, etc. Oh man, they're going to introduce more difficult content to go with the new level of power! Oh...they're not.
LoR, S8, S8.5, S9, S9.5...yadda-yadda-yadda, even more and more and more power - going to introduce more difficult content? Nah...they didn't. Not only didn't they do that, they even nerfed a bunch of stuff along the way.
/ up curve
\ down curve
So...Power / & Content /...? Nope. Power / & Content \...? Yeah, meh.
DR! Okay, with all this heinous increase in power...they're going to do something about the content, right?
Oh...er...k.
Aha, I see...one should likely try to avoid running HSE in a T5 9 console boat. Well, that's something, right?
From 2012 through the near the end of 2014, we've seen almost a geometrical progression in the amount of powercreep while content for the most part has actually been made easier...
...we've got oodles upon oodles of new shinies that allow us to run the same stuff we always ran (or new stuff added along the way at the same difficulty) - just faster and easier if we want.
But some folks, er, think the game has changed - that it's requiring folks do all sorts of things now...for content that's easier than it was when this little trip through time started?
Yeah, whatever color confused is...color me confused on that particular argument.
You have just proved with your above post PvP and PvE are totally separate games..............Bravo
That's why they need to be separated into different servers
PvP is so radically different it isn't even the same game so yes you have a tremendous advantage
But without changing anything on your ship can you and your team do as well as the top dps teams at infected............
No you cant period they will stomp you..end of story your pvp ships cant handle the content like theirs can...you would lose that challenge so bad it would be very embarrassing to you
On the other hand I have saw many PvP heros come to do STFs with us and apologize for blowing up so much until they changed out 3/4 of there ship
apples and oranges
your boasts is meaningless its 2 different games
And im not a DPSer........................
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
This is where my confusion still persists. The definition of "effective" is lost in translation. There are people who think "effective" means simply not getting blown up while others concentrate on actually cranking out DPS. Some think "effective" means playing like they do, meaning "moar DPS!!!", and still others may have different definitions entirely.
You don't need to compete with high DPSers to get through game content. You only need to compete with high DPSers if you want an invite to one of their DPS channels.
I do not think anybody can universally agree upon the definition of "effective". If people expect it to revolve around a certain amount of DPS, then you will just find people pointing out that whatever mission content people are doing can be "effectively" done with an arbitrary amount of DPS.
It is why I find these debates between PvP elitists and PvE elitists so hilarious.
Neither side of the 'debate' has any particularly high ground to stand on, since both Cryptic's AI and Cryptic's PvP mechanics are both uninspired and lackluster compared to other titles out there.
Someone mentioned PvP was like racing bicycles with flat tires. Someone else mentioned PvE was like an enclosed hunting range where you are pretty much "guaranteed" a kill because there is nothing real sporting about any of it.
Neither perspective is particularly wrong.
Good Hill Hunting is a pretty epic episode of King of the Hill.
Yes, and you aren't wrong. Honestly, these pissing contests between PvP elitists and PvE elitists come across more like a South Park episode than King of the Hill.
Cripple Fight comes to mind. That's how I see it when I consider there are MMOs out there that are:
A- Focused primarily on a PvP aspect, which means closer attention paid to things like PvP balance, PvP mechanics, power creep, player retention, "e-sports", leaderboards, tournaments, dev-hosted challenges, exclusive prizes, etc.
B- Focused primarily on challenging AI, which means closer attention paid to the level of difficulty (not just souping up hitpoint numbers, although that can be an aspect, just not the defining one), more engaging and immersive gameplay. Dynamic and adaptive AI. NPC game mechanics that cause you to do something else other than just shoot things in the head for an hour.
STO is not the cream of the crop when it comes to either. So to have people beat their chests over either aspect of the game is... well, it's just sad.
While our premise is sound, your proposed solution is not.
Why would you have those that use Beams nerfed? Would it not make more sense to have Cannons boosted to a competitive level?
When players like you come to the forum and ask for nerfs you will be hit with massive resistance even if your point is valid. Lets face it, the absolute LAST thing STO needs are any more nerfs, they have already nerfed far too much.
When one method is viable, and the alternative method sucks, it's completely insane to propose the idea of reducing the viability of the proven method. What's your end game here? to make both methods suck?
IF you're unhappy with Cannon performance then fine.. lobby to have them boosted. Your request to have everyone else brought down to your level is unacceptable. The best way to close the gap is to increase the viability of Cannons. They can start with increasing the firing arc and base damage.
How can you say there is large gap? Did the cannon player even had sufficient support? That 180k had support specific for that run. When you look at the 180k run, thats compose of players all in the top 10 all with excellent knowledge of pve mechanics.
When you want to compare cannon and beam optimal conditions you need Felisean to run the cannons with the same group pf support players not your fleetmate nor a pvper used to doing pvp rather than pve. Because just looking at Ryans parse on Fleet Patrol, if i take all his beam dps excluding the cutting beam, you will still get around 100K DPS. So if you add cannon DPS, you can literally push a cannon boat beyond 100k DPS.
Besides, we are talking luxury when torps and cannons at its current state can do all content.
Prove me I'm wrong.
Not quite making two distinct servers; I can't imagine having to relog everytime, or stuff like that. Problem is Cryptic doesn't have control over the metagame. If they had, we'd have way less issues. Look at ionic turbulence, in PvE is useless, stunning NPCs isn't helpful. In PvP instead it was a death sentence. What they did, finally, was adjusting the flight location (so that it doesn't track you), extending the immunity time by 20 seconds in PvP to avoid too long stuns.
Same goes for Viral Torpedo, with its double tap issue. You could slot two of them and make the opponent disabled for even 10 seconds.
Neutronic was broken, and it is getting fixed with the next patch. It had incorrect variables that, with torpedo spread, made it go right through a ship shields.
Waiting for a Surgical nerf now. Then PvP will be playable again.
There's plenty of room between effective and making it into the higher DPS channels.
High DPS players might scoff at some themed builds, but I can't see why most themed builds couldn't reach effective levels of DPS.
There are minimum DPS amounts needed to complete certain objectives, just as there are cases where non-DPS abilities are useful or necessary to complete other objectives. What's so hard about putting in a little effort for the benefit of the whole team, that people get so upset about?
Why would you even join a public queue if you want to play like it's a single player game?
Or just be bad, and blame the DPSer when your STFs fail.
Actually, you should blame DPSers anyway; FAW meta is terrible.
Simple, you compared a PvE Optimized build to PvP, an environment far different to what its optimized for. Its like using a Striker as a goal keeper, or to make the analogy more sound, a football player to a tennis player. Those are different playstyles, different trainings etc. etc.
Apples and oranges, and for the germans:
Not quite making two distinct servers; I can't imagine having to relog everytime, or stuff like that. Problem is Cryptic doesn't have control over the metagame. If they had, we'd have way less issues. Look at ionic turbulence, in PvE is useless, stunning NPCs isn't helpful. In PvP instead it was a death sentence. What they did, finally, was adjusting the flight location (so that it doesn't track you), extending the immunity time by 20 seconds in PvP to avoid too long stuns.
Same goes for Viral Torpedo, with its double tap issue. You could slot two of them and make the opponent disabled for even 10 seconds.
Neutronic was broken, and it is getting fixed with the next patch. It had incorrect variables that, with torpedo spread, made it go right through a ship shields.
Waiting for a Surgical nerf now. Then PvP will be playable again.[/QUOTE]
tribble server
red shirt server
holodeck server
Don't we already have them ? maybe im missing something here ?
viral torpedo and surgical strikes isn't a issue or a complaint in PvE
Beam overload wasn't a issue now we have a dead skill in PvE so beam users have 1 ability now Bfaw
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
What is really wrong is that "I play how I want" often leads to subpar builds.
Because there is just too much useless TRIBBLE and noob traps in the game.
Imagine a hypothetical Tier 6 build like this:
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I , Tactical Team II
Beam: Target Subsystem Engines I
Emergency Power to Auxilliary I, Emergency Power to Engines II, Aux2Dampeners II, Boarding Party III
Engineering Team I, Aux2Dampeners I, Directed Energy Modulation I
Polarize Hull I, Tractor Beam II, Viral Matrix I
The build seems to be designed around speed and maneuverability tha. Seems like something someone might want to try. But it would be useless in PvE or PvP. It's only purpose in PvP would be to run away as fast as it can, but it would likely be blowing up by a vaper decloaking within the activation time of its run-away abilities!
In PVE, it could fly circles around ... Nanite Transformers? Cubes? For what good purpose? It could try to intercept Nanine Spheres, except - what would it do when there?
The few offensive powers it has - they are known to be terrible. Players and NPCs can practically ignore them if they get hit by them, or automatically dispel them with their regular power rotation.
It has two skills slotted at higher rank than you'd ever need.
But it's a build that you could easily come up with and, heck, maybe the random assortment of BOFFs you have got you these skills and you thought it was a fun build (running around in a huge cruiser and flying circles at top speed sure is fun!). But there is not a single spot in the game where this build would be useful.
Why? Why can't it offer at least some viability? Why is it light years away from optimization, rather than just a few tweaks?
This whole situation is in fact the inability and failure of DPSers to adapt to a current situation. I remember a year or two ago when they went into PvP and storm everything for a night or two. Then the PvPers adapt and kicked their asses. And what happened? Did they stayed in PvP, where a true challange was? No, they hided back into PvE slaughtering mindless NPCs and padd their back how "great and skilled" they are. And then cry to Cryptic they want to be challenged
This is obvious today aswell. On another thread some1 was describing an ISA where they lost becouse one DPSer went to the other side, wich he failed, then blamed the team for the failure... If he wouldve adapt to the team, to the current situation, and not what he normaly played in the DPS chanels, maybe they wouldve failed.
Sadly this idiotic trend started in grounds too. A few days ago, did a BHE. One of the team mates I noticed was excesivly buffing, I belive via keybinds too, and allways rushing in the "walls", with an AP weapon of course. We allmost lost since at the 3rd alarm bug he rushed and pop it too early. And not even killing it. Luckly I manage to kill the next one. And that guy didnt went after it btw, was just shooting mindlessly. At finish, he posted his parser, and he went on my iggy list ofc. Even more sad thing is he no doubt was very convinged he was ahead of his game, very skilled and an "awesome" player. But in fact he was just an idiot, with a complete lack of awareness of his surroundings, his team mates and the curent situation and pourly skilled towards just offence (I had to pop motivation twice just for him to heal him becouse he was about to die).
Back to space, I sure hope BFAW beta and over crits and AP gets nerfed. And cannons put back on same lvl with beams.
Maybe with the new STF elites, the iconians will have AP res and hopely Crit immunity (I think from AD&D 3 or 3.5 rules some bosses have that). And hopely Flanck immunity. How stupid is that to stay on the head of a boss and call it flanking
But thats the main problem right there. Why these builds are been labeled subpar build, useless TRIBBLE skills and such? Becouse of the huge imbalance in the game. Everything has been "balanced" for the idiotic BFAW/BETA metagame... When Spheres got EPTE that Target Engines maybe wouldve worked, if the said spheres werent getting stuck in the gate. I advocated then it was the wrong skill and still stand by it. If EPtS was given to them, then a drain build wouldve been effective. Any1 even uses omega space set 2 pc anymore?? I remember even sugesting to give cloak to the borgified bops in Cure, so a sci snooper wouldve been required... But instaid we got the ridiculous situation where the smallest ships in that map, the bops, have like 10 times:eek: more HP then a player's ship
I've seen cannon builds get into the 50,000's, and I'm sure a few people can go higher. Beams still get better DPS, but cannons are more than good enough to complete all content in the game.
Also too, wait until the proposed nerfs go into effect. EAP and plasma doping account for a big part of those high scores (doping is about 1/3 of dps at those levels, and EAP is probably bigger but doesn't show up as an entry in a parser). I wouldn't be surprised if beam boats were benefiting more from those than cannon builds.
In other words, the player has to put in TONS of effort because the game is totally inadequate to prepare the player. You know this is suppose to be a game for fun, right? Nobody wants to do a major research project just to play a game. If this was fully disclosed to new players do you think they would they gladly sign up?
NOTICE: Any attempt to get to the top of the game requires money and extensive research and development activities. It will be non-fun and requires out-of-game time. Additional software packages will be needed. Your goal will be to reverse-engineer the combat model. You will be expected to constantly pay for new gear. Prepare to be assimilated to the fanboi club.
At this point we need a set of single player benchmark maps, an in-game evaluation tool that models all possible setups, and a series of episodes that will help a player step up to the hardest content.
"TONS"...eh? Why are folks so melodramatic? You know, I've noticed that growing trend in the past few years - folks getting more and more flamboyant like that.
The fact is, if I want to join a PUG in an advanced STF in my Constitution class with rainbow beams I can. There's no reason why I shouldn't. It's a game, folks.
If you want to play with people with the same playing style as yourself then form a pre-made group. If you choose not to, you're at the mercy of new players with no idea how to play, trolls who want you to fail and people who actually play the game for FUN.
I'll see you all in ISA soon, in my Risian Corvette with nothing but rainbow mines and a mix of torpedoes.
Free Tibet!
It has warped my entire gameplay. Choices for ships, gear, maps, daily objectives, how resources are spent, conversation topics - pretty much everything.
And just look at me now, posting again instead of playing.
People shouldn't waste time and energy chasing some arbitrary standard invented by other players in a fit of ego so extreme that they think everyone should play exactly the same way they do.
Free Tibet!
"FUN"...? Feels like I just posted about this kind of embellished embellishment...the /facepalms with the cap words never get old, though I have to wonder if they can cause brain damage in the long run (given how my posts get stupider and stupider the more time I spend on the forums, maybe I need to layoff the forums for a bit to prevent further damage from the /facepalms)...
...but anyway, the fun thing - in the end it still comes down to the simple bit that it is a queue, where a group of players does something and gets some reward...thus the simple concept there is a group of folks working together to get that reward, yeah? Having fun while actually working toward that reward, right? Simple, no doubt?
So why is there that small group of folks giving the finger to everybody else while trying to play the victim?
Talk about having suffered some brain damage...meh...
It's not a fit of ego, some do it for ego stroking yes, but some just want to find out the max possible out of curiosity. I've not seen massive ego's shown by Ezri-Ryan or Felisean (top two DPS holders currently), in fact both are very personable and willing to help players.
The only ego problems I've seen so far are those with a chip on their shoulder about people being a TRIBBLE load better than them.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
The constant posting on these forums of DPS Bragging Videos undermines your argument.
Free Tibet!
The thing I'd question there is...
If a person wants to do that, they want to chase DPS, then where is the issue in it? Are they not doing what they want to do?
If a person does not want to do that, they do not want to chase DPS, then why are they doing it? Are they not the cause of their own problem?
...does it get into some sort of herd mentality, eh? Is there some feeling of needing to keep up with folks, the fear of being left behind, and thus folks start doing stuff they don't want to do - leading to that underlying rage born of frustration that just ruins the game for them?
If somebody wants to do something, then it's a case of looking at what needs to be done to do that, yeah? If they don't care beyond that, then they don't care - right?
Along the lines of...
I want to do ISA. What's the minimum I need to do there? What kind of padding might I want to have a better chance at a fun 'n successful run? Cool...done.
I don't care about doing a 1-minute ISA. I don't care about doing 100k DPS. I'm not going to bother looking into doing any of that sort of stuff, I'm not going to put any effort, time, resources, etc into that.
...it's just a case of looking into what I want to do, eh?
I simply do not get why some folks out there get so worked up about stuff that they really don't care about, but suddenly it's taken on some huge meaning in their gameplay - warping it as you said. TRIBBLE that, this is a game, yeah?
I'll try to make sure any build I run doesn't mess things up for folks in any team things, but other than that...wheee, it's a game - I'm just wasting some time and trying to have a bit of fun, no?
Seems to me, some folks out there just take this stuff all sorts of way too serious.