but I guess it goes to show that min/maxing *isn't* everything it's cracked up to be after all, even in PVE.
It's possible that most of the min-maxers don't realize that there's a point where the opportunity cost of picking up some defense is greater than the benefit of increasing their damage another 0.1%.
It's always amusing to see my escort tank better thank a self-professed tank, even with its 2% hull damage reduction to most damage types (from accolades).
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I think this may be the first time I've had even partial agreement with you on anything, riccardo. I do not PVP at all and never will (other than to assist fleetmates in one-on-one build testing), but it really caught me off guard when there was so much upset over the Vaadwaur when they first came out, from people that I suspect had a good bit more DPS than I do. Yet my highly survivable crowd control build wasn't constantly getting popped (though I won't lie, it's not like I *never* exploded once in DR) and I found the Vaadwaur an interesting enemy to fight. But the thing is, running a CC build means you learn how to maneuver and endure, both of which the Vaadwaur demand for you to be successful against them. It was a real shock to discover such a bad reaction to the Vaadwaur--but I guess it goes to show that min/maxing *isn't* everything it's cracked up to be after all, even in PVE.
Really? Well champagne then, I guess it's the first time someone agrees with me outside PvP forums/OPVP/Ker'rat.
Dunno, I wasn't impressed about Vaadwaur as NPCs, not that NPCs ever impressed me though. I still think that a living player on the other side is a better fight.
I think this may be the first time I've had even partial agreement with you on anything, riccardo. I do not PVP at all and never will (other than to assist fleetmates in one-on-one build testing), but it really caught me off guard when there was so much upset over the Vaadwaur when they first came out, from people that I suspect had a good bit more DPS than I do. Yet my highly survivable crowd control build wasn't constantly getting popped (though I won't lie, it's not like I *never* exploded once in DR) and I found the Vaadwaur an interesting enemy to fight. But the thing is, running a CC build means you learn how to maneuver and endure, both of which the Vaadwaur demand for you to be successful against them. It was a real shock to discover such a bad reaction to the Vaadwaur--but I guess it goes to show that min/maxing *isn't* everything it's cracked up to be after all, even in PVE.
I think that may be connecting dots that aren't there, since it appears to ignore a potential part of the playerbase that may have been making the complaints. There are multiple groups at play in the various discussions, although there tends to be that tendency to lump folks into the me:them sort of thing.
Consider the following, perhaps - yeah?
A) Lower DPS, Lower Survivability Lower DPS, Average Survivability
C) Lower DPS, Higher Survivability
D) Average DPS, Lower Survivability
E) Average DPS, Average Survivability
F) Average DPS, Higher Survivability
G) Higher DPS, Lower Survivability
H) Higher DPS, Average Survivability
I) Higher DPS, Higher Survivability
Cause there are all sorts of builds out there...and without looking at something more like that, I think that folks can walk into a sort of logic trap - creating a fallacy of expectations.
Somebody with lower DPS hasn't necessarily built for higher survivability.
Somebody with lower survivability hasn't necessarily built for higher DPS.
Sure, the more you build for DPS - the more you'll have to sacrifice survivability.
Sure, the more you build for survivability - the more you'll have to sacrifice DPS.
But that doesn't mean that folks can't end up building for neither DPS nor survivability.
Basically, when I see folks complaining about dying - the higher DPS folks don't come to mind in the least. I'm picturing the lower DPS/lower survivability and average DPS/lower survivability folks.
The latter there because they've copied a higher DPS/lower survivability build without the actual ability to put out the higher DPS...and DPS is a form of survivability. Dead targets don't shoot at you. So those folks end up with extremely lower survivability...cause they're not killing the targets.
As an aside, imho, the issue with the Vaadwaur is the same as it was with the Elachi...more a case of mobility than anything else. Players sitting still and taking the brunt of the damage that if they were moving a wee bit wouldn't have been that big of an issue.
edit: And well, regarding the whole PvE vs. PvP build thing...imho, it's uh kind of straightforward and I'm not sure why it's even a question/discussion. Build for what you're going to be doing, yeah? Say I want to take the family camping across the country...maybe do some RVing, right? So I get the camper or RV and off I go. Say I want to go to the 7-Eleven for some chips and soda...er...I'm not taking the RV. Just like I'm not going to take the car I took to the 7-Eleven to go camping. Kind of like using a spoon for soup instead of a fork sort of thing...er...yeah, I'm not even sure why it's a discussion.
Maybe it is time Cryptic started to sell "archetype" T5 packs in the C-store?
Those packs would come with 5-6 trained boffs, 5 doffs, a complete set of at least green, a good chance of at least one blue and a chance for one purple item to outfit a ship.
The boff powers and gear would be balanced toward a certain role and give the player buying it a starting point for optimization.
The pack could also include a couple of recommended (or even unique) traits, a spec point token and a career matching balanced skill point preset.
Those packs would not put anyone in the top DPS league but get everyone at least in the 5k-10k dps range?
For each ship type you'd have maybe 3 preselected roles you can choose from: DPS, Support, Tank.
Maybe cryptic should sell a player to come to your house and play STO for you, as well.
To be clear, 99% of the time, the problem is not with the character or the gear. The problem exists between the keyboard and the chair.
Shield Penetration Resistance: 95% w/ 5% Energy Absorption (Energy: 5% to Hull, 90% to Shield, 5% to power the servers; Kinetic: 5% to Hull, 95% to Shield)
Shield Damage Reduction: starts to taper off around 90%
Ding ding, you just found the server problem. My tests have showed that it's 5% to hull and 95% to shields. So that's why the servers are going down.
Also, my experience has shown that shield resist is hardcapped at 75% - while it doesn't have that same curve as hull resist, it does have some diminishing returns that get slammed into an artificial brick wall at 75%.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
<frustrated_rant>
Is there anyone I can go in this game to get away from the endless DPS race and constant power creep? I've been flying the same 3rd Anniversary Ambassador build for two years, recently upgraded to the Kobali cruiser, not l33t but good enough to handle Advanced STFs or get 1st or 2nd most of the time in a pug CCA group, but I don't like flying aggressively or racing point to point to max out some timer. I'm not in any rush so long as everything is done successfully and within the mission timer...
...Is there anywhere I can go to still play the way I like to play, groups for non-minmaxers or anything like that? Because right now it seems like the psycho power creep is everywhere, even Normal pugs fer chrissake, and all I want to play somewhere where they aren't. Is there such a place anymore?
</frustrated_rant>
Personally, I think you REQUIRE a DPSer in a PUG.
With all the n00bs being forced to queue Advanced STFs, someone will usually have to carry the Team...that means the Scimtard with a BFaWFTW build.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I am trying to not get involved in these PvE DPS E-Peen Wizards vs. PvP Vapecloak Kings debates, but on this I really have to genuinely ask.
What is wrong with that statement? "I play how I want."
If your team already has nothing but certifiable overkill builds, except for one or two people who don't... what is the point of them needing help?
You already have the mission in the bag. You've devoted lots of zen and purple stuff to getting that perfect build where nothing survives your presence. So the issue is what? That you're being expected to carry someone who isn't willing to sink as much time and effort into their build as you are?
That they are somehow not contributing to the team fairly? If they can only deal a fraction of the DPS you do, but your DPS in turn functions as an effective additional two or three team members, what is the problem?
Your goal is to be able to crank out an ungodly amount of integers to the point where the hardest PvE content in the game still burns away quickly. What does it matter if Scrublord McPuggie is leeching?
I understand there are several DPS channels, and that there is a "High DPS" subcommunity in game and on these forums, so... would not the very obvious choice be to exclude anyone not willing to fall into place? I would imagine people in those channels who just say, "I play how I want." would not last very long.
And if this is about public queues... well, I would just say "Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Also, my experience has shown that shield resist is hardcapped at 75% - while it doesn't have that same curve as hull resist, it does have some diminishing returns that get slammed into an artificial brick wall at 75%.
total shield damage reduction = product of individual shield damage reductions
So if you have a shield resist of 25% and a second one of 25%, they will give 1 - (1-.25) * (1-.25) = 1 - .75^2 = 43.75%. (A resist of x% corresponds to a damage reduction factor of 1-x/100).
The damage reduction factor from shield power is calculated as (1 - shield power * 0.0028).
To read the combat log entries, you have to understand the structure. Each line contains two numbers and each shot against shields will give two lines (one for shield damage, the other one for hull damage).
The values in these two lines are:
Shield damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - shield power * 0.0028) * (product of other shield reductions) * 0.9
y = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.9 (with 0.95 instead of 0.9 in case of resilient shields)
x is the net damage done to the shields. y is the avoided hull damage.
Hull damage: x (y) with
x = base damage * (1 - hull resist) * 0.1 (with .05 instead of .1 in case of resilient shields)
y = base damage
This way if one knows the base damage (from the hull damage line) and all factors in the shield damage line except one, one can calculate that unknown factor.
So for example, the following...say taking Disruptor damage after a facing dropped.
130 Shield Power: 36.4%
Dyson Shield - Energy: 10.0%
Dyson Shield Hyper-Regenerative: 67.0%
Conductive RCS Accelerator (after hull heal): 10.0%
5stack Nanoprobe Field Generator: 25.0%
4stack Pattern Recognition: 6.0% (I still think it's acting up with secondary shields)
TSS2 (125 Aux): 18.5%
EPtS3: 30.0%
Bio-Molecular Shield Generator: 22.0%
SciFleet3: 36.0%
Would take a controlled test to see if that 96.6% was actually possible or if there was an artificial cap in place...
...but the tapering off toward 90% was thinking (not mentioning) also about projectiles with their 75%. Cause even at 60% Shield Hardness, if you work in the Kinetic... that's 1 - (1 - 0.75) * (1 - 0.6) = 1 - 0.25 * 0.4 = 1 - 0.1 = 0.9...and I usually don't go beyond 60-65% to try to maintain some form of coverage.
My favorite moment is when they post the combat log - which of course they'll only do if they get no. 1.
And I am like, I am an engineer in an atrox - with skillpoints from week 1 I started playing all fubar, and, I use a torpedo build with all blue consoles, because awareness of constant re-grind cost.
But sure the comparison to your pay2win ship and tactical career buffs? Completely fair.
I do that because I like it. I won't ever become a generic clone, you lose your soul doing that.
I'll be me no matter the cost because who in the hell else am I going to be...
Same thing applies to the dps gameplay, which has been in-game 4 months out of 48 months...
I don't really care that they want the whales to buy copy-paste text upgrades for millions of dil and that the whales will accept developers abandoning their own game concept.
My ship, my game, my gameplay, my decisions, my money.
Nothing will ever move that way of thinking even a percentage of an inch.
So they can keep pretending all they want, say best expansion ever and call the dead queues a reporting error - nerf some more and cook up stories about that, to justify a paycheck of actually "developing" something, I am not impressed by their performance.
Just the thing I find curious, is when we know a huge portion of the customers are star trek addicts and fanatics, who really just want to fly their favorite ship around and get involved with story and lore.
But again the answer to that one is budget coding. It was done because it was the path of least work, least animations and least models - as in zero required. AI? Zero.
It would seem the only requirement to sell to the STO whales is adding a pricetag.
Would take a controlled test to see if that 96.6% was actually possible or if there was an artificial cap in place...
...but the tapering off toward 90% was thinking (not mentioning) also about projectiles with their 75%. Cause even at 60% Shield Hardness, if you work in the Kinetic... that's 1 - (1 - 0.75) * (1 - 0.6) = 1 - 0.25 * 0.4 = 1 - 0.1 = 0.9...and I usually don't go beyond 60-65% to try to maintain some form of coverage.
From what I've seen, that 75% is a hardcap, but doesn't account for that 75% vs torps. Which is it's own thing. So it would technically be a hardcap of 93.75% vs kinetic.
Ding ding, you just found the server problem. My tests have showed that it's 5% to hull and 95% to shields. So that's why the servers are going down.
Er...huh?
I was attempting a joke. Since the log files I've seen tell me that damage is going 95% to shields, 5% to hull, and you joked about the servers being powered about the 5% absorption, that'd be why they were having so many issues as of late.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
I was attempting a joke. Since the log files I've seen tell me that damage is going 95% to shields, 5% to hull, and you joked about the servers being powered about the 5% absorption, that'd be why they were having so many issues as of late.
Totally fail on my part...I'm trying to do stuff in the game, that I really just don't want to do - cause I see little point in doing it since at the end of the day I'll still barely be able to play because of the UI lag, the network latency, the random disconnects, and all the rest. I don't mind if something takes months to do if somewhere down the road I can actually enjoy it, but I don't even feel like doing stuff that takes less than an hour now knowing that I won't actually be able to enjoy it...so I'm kind of shutting my brain off over on the other monitor, and I totally missed that - completely forgot I'd said that about the 5%, heh. Yeah, the 5% magically absorbed...disappearing into the ether.
Cause there are all sorts of builds out there...and without looking at something more like that, I think that folks can walk into a sort of logic trap - creating a fallacy of expectations.
I want to break some myths right now about having to trade survivability for high DPS and vice versa.
The following are some screenshots of parses from 3 ISA runs i did yesterday.
You can see i did the most damage, the most healing, and had the most damage in. I happened to die once because of lag/rubberbanding.
You can see the 3rd person in that parse did only 6k DPS but was somewhat close to me in healing and damage in. He actually threw me a couple heals during the run which is great; but if he had more DPS while keeping the same amount of healing and aggro it would have made the run a lot easier and quicker.
A lot better run for me as there was a lot less lag. I did almost 3x the damage of everyone else combined, and almost 2x the healing and 2x the damage in of the rest of the group combined.
And yes, that is 85.6k DPS in a pug run, as a tac captain, in a DPS focused ship.
Here is a run with some of the guys from the DPS channel. Lots of lag and rubberbanding in this run unfortunately; but you can see i still did some decent damage, lots of healing, and a big share of the damage in although it was more spread out amongst the team.
---
It really is a fallacy to say that a ship dedicated to DPS isn't survivable, or can't heal, debuff, or crowd control.
Also that ships dedicated to healing, debuffing, control, and/or aggro management can't do DPS or any combination of these roles.
Most people are just deluding themselves and others. I've had people tell me that they don't do DPS because they are "Healers", but when i run with them and look at the parse after; i see that they only healed themselves.
Recently i saw someone who claimed he was a "Support Role", but in the run that i saw him in he didn't do any DPS, he didn't grab any aggro, he didn't use any crowd control, he didn't do any debuffing, and he didn't do any healing except use Needs of the Many once and the Samsar shield capacitance once...
In his own head he is doing perfectly fine, he's someone who supports his team and carries his own weight. In reality he's pretty useless and a burden to the team in Advanced/Elite queues.
These types of players you cannot help; if you try to offer them advice you're going to get vitreol ranging from "mah playstyle" to "you elitist" and much worse.
And the answer is someone who refers to himself in the 3rd person, thinking he is the shizzle in a 2d game based on notepad stats?
The point to take away here is playing a game is about being free - that includes playing whatever build you want especially using any weapons you want.
One of the major un-appealing aspects of dps facisim is the behaviour you display right now...
Playing a game is being creative on your terms to hang loose and relax.
I get you saw an opening to stroke your ego with the upgrading system and the post DR grinding but please try to look at the bigger picture outside your little box.
It takes a lot of work to make it go right (which is part of the appeal... you need to pilot the heck out of a B'rel in PVE). Even decloaked & at full shields, I can easily be one-shotted at higher difficulties... so I know that others in the PUG will have to compensate for that.
My DPS is probably not ideal, but at the same time, I can spike hard & can quickly steal agro off the big DPSers, especially if I'm flanking. I also usually pack 2 Grav Wells (and at least one cooldown DOff) so that I know to look out for CC opportunities.
I aim to have fun. I can be a burden to a group in some ways, but then I try to make it up in others (even if I mess up horribly sometimes since I still make mistakes doing CC, which is an imperfect thing in this game).
That's really the bottom line... doing what I can, to the best of my ability. I'm not going to out-DPS anybody & I'm not going to soak up damage like a sponge (if I do soak up shots, it's purely on luck/high defense). What I will do is to do my best, to contribute as best as I can, even if my ship is sub-optimal for PVE.
If you're not contributing, even in a PUG, then why shouldn't people criticize? I deserve criticism when I play like TRIBBLE in my B'rel, but I know I can do better when that happens & it's on me to do better the next time.
I'm not going to post the picture of me staring at the screen in a daze fascinated by the FX of the Vaad Arrays and Rapid Fire Missile while flying around in circles...I might have been drooling.
Virus, why did you post that? I'm bored. It kind of sucks. I don't have a fragile ego.
My max hit, wheeeeee, was a Quantum Torpedo - Salvo I from a Photonic Typhoon Battleship.
Cause that's how I roll...or is it more of a wobble?
Note: Still think everybody should grab a cheap Vaad Array off the Exchange, copy the toon to Tribble, and fire it a few times...who cares if it's useless against targets without shields, tell me that it doesn't look awesome with the visual FX of it firing...get six of those going and add in the Ferengi Rapid...oh yeah, baby...oh yeah. Hrmmm, I need a moment alone...back later. :cool:
And the answer is someone who refers to himself in the 3rd person, thinking he is the shizzle in a 2d game based on notepad stats?
The point to take away here is playing a game is about being free - that includes playing whatever build you want especially using any weapons you want.
One of the major un-appealing aspects of dps facisim is the behaviour you display right now...
Playing a game is being creative on your terms to hang loose and relax.
I get you saw an opening to stroke your ego with the upgrading system and the post DR grinding but please try to look at the bigger picture outside your little box.
You do realise that with all your BS about, well everything, you completely missed that the largest voice on DR release was that of the people from the DPS Channels's going WTF?
The only DPS "fascism" going is that of Cryptic requiring people to up their game from DERP to something resembling a ship that can do 1K of damage for normal. Hell when I started playing again I had better builds than half the people who I encountered in PUG's, yet I had no idea how to build. It seems logic is a rare thing these days.
If you really want to be creative in the game, by all means do so, just remember if you inflict that creativity on others in a negative way (which the "I'm playing my way so TRIBBLE you" is doing) then be prepared to have TRIBBLE thrown at you.
The only ePeen being stroked though is your own. Sarcasm just pointed out that to do other roles doesn't necessarily mean a need to sacrifice damage. When I see people claim TRIBBLE like Support and Healer, if they don't support or heal, they aren't doing their job. That support had better use TBR or Grav Well to keep those Sphere's away or do something useful, the Healer had better do some team healing instead of self-healing or they are just dead weight.
Yet they are the people who complain the loudest about people who actually do damage and other things...
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Aaand of course what do we get in this thread eventually? Boasting vids, also known as nerf manuals. :-/
Prime example of why I want nothing to do with the behaviors that go with the DPS leagues: that stuff should be kept private. It's great when the DPS'ers do complain about what's wrong with the game but not so great when they undermine their position by boasting about what they can get away with. At the end of the day, it doesn't help anyone because the behavior does not align with the action.
Now does that mean EVERY person who does higher DPS does that kind of thing? No. Thankfully my own fleet doesn't have that issue--belittling other players or displaying intolerance towards others for play style, gear level, or skill level isn't permitted under the general rule against disrespect, which means those who might qualify as DPS'ers in our fleet are typically considerate and think about how their behavior impacts others. Those who don't consider that...it doesn't go over well at all.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I see a guy refering to himself in the third person, trying to dictate how people should play and that is what I commented on...
Being told what to do, is the opposite of playing a game, being free and being creative. I'd take equally offense if someone came on the forums and starting telling people they HAD to eRP or PVP.
That's what I call "fascism", you aren't free to be yourself and you get shot as a degenerate and outlaw if you think freely.
That is how you choke a game and that is how you ruin people's recreational time. If you've ever heard people talking about a game as a "job" that is exactly the point they are bringing up being dictate, drained and generally having your day ruined.
Nowhere have I said the dps fixators are responsible for the planning and execution of DR. I think that is a whole other discussion.
The game has always been casual and that was actually the core strength. Want to fly your favorite ship, in messed up hybrid builds you find likeable go ahead.
And when I say always I mean 4-5 years, or half a decade the game has been working on the same core principles.
That premise was broken.
And the reasoning being, they decided to pimp out all the whales buying "the emperor's new clothes", copy-paste text with no animations, for millions of dil - per character.
So not only was the gameplay ruined, the queues killed, the players robbed - they also sold out and abandoned and failed their own core premise of the game people had previously paid them for.
I don't think you can say enough bad things about the whole thing?
Then now, after the fact yes, the dps'ers should same as everyone else stand up for a better quality game - one that is not simple jack but rather gives people what they were asking for, better gameplay.
... and not just more shield health you can dil compensate for using millions of dil for upgrading.
I call that slaving and budget coding and frankly yes I might come off a bit condescending if all these here facts aren't painfully obvious to you.
I see a guy refering to himself in the third person, trying to dictate how people should play and that is what I commented on...
Being told what to do, is the opposite of playing a game, being free and being creative. I'd take equally offense if someone came on the forums and starting telling people they HAD to eRP or PVP.
That's what I call "fascism", you aren't free to be yourself and you get shot as a degenerate and outlaw if you think freely.
...snip...
I call that slaving and budget coding and frankly yes I might come off a bit condescending if all these here facts aren't painfully obvious to you.
I nowhere in this thread have seen people referring to themselves in the third person.
I have to assume you mean this quote from sarcasm:
In his own head he is doing perfectly fine, he's someone who supports his team and carries his own weight. In reality he's pretty useless and a burden to the team in Advanced/Elite queues.
But, if you read anything he said, he was referring to someone else.
And if asking you to do the bare minimum dps required so we don't fail the queue due to the timer is fascism, you need to do some serious thinking.
I saw no facts, I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
This thread is way longer than I would have expected, well done. And kudos to those posters taking a unique point of view.
My point is for the DPS crowd. Just how do you expect the novice player to jump from episodes to the dizzying heights of DPS? Do you really think all players are willing to endure the effort? How can the game survive if it becomes the DPS black box of mystery?
For the novice player there is no clear path forward. He will attempt a STF and perform poorly. Perhaps someone will give a few sage words of advice, in between the insults. He then navigates player channels, special forums, hundreds of choices of gear, complex formulas, lengthy calculations and endless testing. With fanatical effort he will get to the inner circle. However his position is precarious with the constant flow of patches, updated and competitors. It definitely sounds like a job, but he is the one paying with time and money. Maybe he would be better off learning to play the stock market instead.
This thread is way longer than I would have expected, well done. And kudos to those posters taking a unique point of view.
My point is for the DPS crowd. Just how do you expect the novice player to jump from episodes to the dizzying heights of DPS? Do you really think all players are willing to endure the effort? How can the game survive if it becomes the DPS black box of mystery?
Let's see. He could read the /r/stobuilds wiki. Preuse the builds we've posted. Ask questions in dps-public, redditchat, or the other open public channels we're in. Ask us questions in-game. Watch the videos made to help them. Make a post asking for help. Our information isn't exactly hard to find. I, in fact, have links to two of those great resources in my signature for just such reasons.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Top cannon DPS is what, 50k? Top beam is 180k. You could see that as that cannon is broken and weak. And if you did the solution would be to triple the damage of cannons. But what happens when you do that? Yep the enemies gets a HP balance pass and gets their HP increased. That means while most of the top players are okay, all those casuals and not really gamer people are not. OR we see that as beams are OPed and we nerf beams down. We don't raise the the HP of the enemies and the people who are casuals and not really gamers can stick around and still play.
You are not comparing beams and cannons. you are comparing a run by a different player therefore different skill level in pve, and their support team. That is if the cannon run even had a support team like the beam had both in skill and build.
You are also comparing a map that is optimal for beam FAW which is ISA. Just like in the ground the difference between NTTE and BHE. NTTE is Ambush, single target friendly but not so much on multiple mobs at the same time like BHE which is mine/bomb/orbital beam friendly. Thats why the optimal dps in NTTE is held by tacs and optimal DPS for BHE is held by Engs.
Regardless if you put a balance between the two, someone has got to win that dps race whether it be torps, cannons or beams.
Finally, it is hard to find if what you want is balance of the game mechanics because of balance between players, when there is a player skill difference both in piloting and knowledge of the mechanics, and the respective team's build and skill difference.
But, at this point Ive done 8 ISA's today, 6 were pugs, 2 were 10k channel run. Died once. Yet I see posts and the 10k Channel itself. "Ive done 1 ISA and died 7 times!" stuff. so I dont get it.
If I can survive ISA taking 60-70% of the damage and live 7 out of 8 runs. What is it the others are annoyed about? Why are people in the DPS channel dying?
I changed a bit of my tactics. Went AOE heal and as much DPS as I can. in one of those 10k runs. I only did 24k, and a scimi did 74k. I still took in 60% of the damage. And healed out 1mil.
Add some heals or something. wth. The Pugs that went the smoothest were the ones that had a SCi CC guy, and an escort or two. you know, the Focused Single Target old school stuff. So they dont target the whole map? lol
Leave that to a player like me. Let me tank that for you.
Give me my role back. lol. I'm gonna fully enjoy this weekend because if they change this challenge it will kinda suck IMO. I like the Idea of having more then everyone Full on DPS!
STO is a game. That is all it is. Entertainment. It shouldn't be a lifestyle choice. Letting it become so leads to silliness like this.
"The DPSer's are the reason this game is all jacked up!" I call b#&%@~*t on this idea. Why? Because I have been here long enough to remember when the prevailing tone of the whinyness was, "The PvPers are the reason this game is all jacked up!" And before this one there was, "The Fed players are the reason this game is all jacked up!" Right alongside, "The Klingon cloak is the reason this game is all jacked up!" And so on.
The people who do the DPS thing are playing STO they way they want to. They are enjoying themselves. It isn't how I roll, but I think there is plenty of room for them in this game. "Adjusting" the game to counteract the talents and abilities of one group of players is a really stupid idea.
What the DPSers are doing requires an active participation in the game. By trying out various combinations of ships and consoles and weapons. They are interacting with other players to learn better setups or faster techniques. The end result may look like Spacebar Spam, but there has to be a lot of preparation beforehand to achieve this.
Like I said. Achieving a high DPS is not my preferred way of playing STO. But I do watch what others do and use. And if it looks like making my ship or Away Team more effective, then I am damned sure going to check it out.
"The only gear a ship or Away Team requires is a competent Captain." As the game changes with add ons and other things changing, a competent Captain will change how he or she plays the game as well. Publicly denigrating another group of players due to one's lack of ability or desire to adapt is bad form. It is an indicator of laziness. Makes one part of the targeted demographic for all those Farmville clones over on Facebook. If pressing more than one button or spending time thinking about what one wants to accomplish on STO today is too difficult, then STO may not be the best entertainment option for someone.
Wow! The voice of reason. I tip my hat to you, sir
Fun fact: DPSers' ship do not have a single resist console equipped. Plus said ship sucks in PvP as it can only pwn NPCs, which are known for their extreme intelligence.
What I do most of the times is just challenge them to a PvP fight and bang, they're exploding soon after. OP, ignore them. DPSers are less threatening than a Baku. All I see are a bunch of guys who can only take down NPCs honestly faster than average.
With all due respect, this is literally the bigger load of horse manure I've seen in a post on these forums for a long time.
Comments
It's always amusing to see my escort tank better thank a self-professed tank, even with its 2% hull damage reduction to most damage types (from accolades).
Really? Well champagne then, I guess it's the first time someone agrees with me outside PvP forums/OPVP/Ker'rat.
Dunno, I wasn't impressed about Vaadwaur as NPCs, not that NPCs ever impressed me though. I still think that a living player on the other side is a better fight.
I think that may be connecting dots that aren't there, since it appears to ignore a potential part of the playerbase that may have been making the complaints. There are multiple groups at play in the various discussions, although there tends to be that tendency to lump folks into the me:them sort of thing.
Consider the following, perhaps - yeah?
A) Lower DPS, Lower Survivability
C) Lower DPS, Higher Survivability
D) Average DPS, Lower Survivability
E) Average DPS, Average Survivability
F) Average DPS, Higher Survivability
G) Higher DPS, Lower Survivability
H) Higher DPS, Average Survivability
I) Higher DPS, Higher Survivability
Cause there are all sorts of builds out there...and without looking at something more like that, I think that folks can walk into a sort of logic trap - creating a fallacy of expectations.
Somebody with lower DPS hasn't necessarily built for higher survivability.
Somebody with lower survivability hasn't necessarily built for higher DPS.
Sure, the more you build for DPS - the more you'll have to sacrifice survivability.
Sure, the more you build for survivability - the more you'll have to sacrifice DPS.
But that doesn't mean that folks can't end up building for neither DPS nor survivability.
Basically, when I see folks complaining about dying - the higher DPS folks don't come to mind in the least. I'm picturing the lower DPS/lower survivability and average DPS/lower survivability folks.
The latter there because they've copied a higher DPS/lower survivability build without the actual ability to put out the higher DPS...and DPS is a form of survivability. Dead targets don't shoot at you. So those folks end up with extremely lower survivability...cause they're not killing the targets.
As an aside, imho, the issue with the Vaadwaur is the same as it was with the Elachi...more a case of mobility than anything else. Players sitting still and taking the brunt of the damage that if they were moving a wee bit wouldn't have been that big of an issue.
edit: And well, regarding the whole PvE vs. PvP build thing...imho, it's uh kind of straightforward and I'm not sure why it's even a question/discussion. Build for what you're going to be doing, yeah? Say I want to take the family camping across the country...maybe do some RVing, right? So I get the camper or RV and off I go. Say I want to go to the 7-Eleven for some chips and soda...er...I'm not taking the RV. Just like I'm not going to take the car I took to the 7-Eleven to go camping. Kind of like using a spoon for soup instead of a fork sort of thing...er...yeah, I'm not even sure why it's a discussion.
Maybe cryptic should sell a player to come to your house and play STO for you, as well.
To be clear, 99% of the time, the problem is not with the character or the gear. The problem exists between the keyboard and the chair.
Ding ding, you just found the server problem. My tests have showed that it's 5% to hull and 95% to shields. So that's why the servers are going down.
Also, my experience has shown that shield resist is hardcapped at 75% - while it doesn't have that same curve as hull resist, it does have some diminishing returns that get slammed into an artificial brick wall at 75%.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Personally, I think you REQUIRE a DPSer in a PUG.
With all the n00bs being forced to queue Advanced STFs, someone will usually have to carry the Team...that means the Scimtard with a BFaWFTW build.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I am trying to not get involved in these PvE DPS E-Peen Wizards vs. PvP Vapecloak Kings debates, but on this I really have to genuinely ask.
What is wrong with that statement? "I play how I want."
If your team already has nothing but certifiable overkill builds, except for one or two people who don't... what is the point of them needing help?
You already have the mission in the bag. You've devoted lots of zen and purple stuff to getting that perfect build where nothing survives your presence. So the issue is what? That you're being expected to carry someone who isn't willing to sink as much time and effort into their build as you are?
That they are somehow not contributing to the team fairly? If they can only deal a fraction of the DPS you do, but your DPS in turn functions as an effective additional two or three team members, what is the problem?
Your goal is to be able to crank out an ungodly amount of integers to the point where the hardest PvE content in the game still burns away quickly. What does it matter if Scrublord McPuggie is leeching?
I understand there are several DPS channels, and that there is a "High DPS" subcommunity in game and on these forums, so... would not the very obvious choice be to exclude anyone not willing to fall into place? I would imagine people in those channels who just say, "I play how I want." would not last very long.
And if this is about public queues... well, I would just say "Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Going off of...
So for example, the following...say taking Disruptor damage after a facing dropped.
130 Shield Power: 36.4%
Dyson Shield - Energy: 10.0%
Dyson Shield Hyper-Regenerative: 67.0%
Conductive RCS Accelerator (after hull heal): 10.0%
5stack Nanoprobe Field Generator: 25.0%
4stack Pattern Recognition: 6.0% (I still think it's acting up with secondary shields)
TSS2 (125 Aux): 18.5%
EPtS3: 30.0%
Bio-Molecular Shield Generator: 22.0%
SciFleet3: 36.0%
Meh, that's enough...okay then:
1 - (1 - 0.365) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.67) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.06) * (1 - 0.185) * (1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.22) * (1 - 0.36)
1 - 0.635 * 0.9 * 0.33 * 0.9 * 0.75 * 0.94 * 0.815 * 0.7 * 0.78 * 0.64
1 - 0.034079406785424
0.965920593214576
96.5920593214576%
Would take a controlled test to see if that 96.6% was actually possible or if there was an artificial cap in place...
...but the tapering off toward 90% was thinking (not mentioning) also about projectiles with their 75%. Cause even at 60% Shield Hardness, if you work in the Kinetic... that's 1 - (1 - 0.75) * (1 - 0.6) = 1 - 0.25 * 0.4 = 1 - 0.1 = 0.9...and I usually don't go beyond 60-65% to try to maintain some form of coverage.
Er...huh?
And I am like, I am an engineer in an atrox - with skillpoints from week 1 I started playing all fubar, and, I use a torpedo build with all blue consoles, because awareness of constant re-grind cost.
But sure the comparison to your pay2win ship and tactical career buffs? Completely fair.
I do that because I like it. I won't ever become a generic clone, you lose your soul doing that.
I'll be me no matter the cost because who in the hell else am I going to be...
Same thing applies to the dps gameplay, which has been in-game 4 months out of 48 months...
I don't really care that they want the whales to buy copy-paste text upgrades for millions of dil and that the whales will accept developers abandoning their own game concept.
My ship, my game, my gameplay, my decisions, my money.
Nothing will ever move that way of thinking even a percentage of an inch.
So they can keep pretending all they want, say best expansion ever and call the dead queues a reporting error - nerf some more and cook up stories about that, to justify a paycheck of actually "developing" something, I am not impressed by their performance.
Just the thing I find curious, is when we know a huge portion of the customers are star trek addicts and fanatics, who really just want to fly their favorite ship around and get involved with story and lore.
But again the answer to that one is budget coding. It was done because it was the path of least work, least animations and least models - as in zero required. AI? Zero.
It would seem the only requirement to sell to the STO whales is adding a pricetag.
From what I've seen, that 75% is a hardcap, but doesn't account for that 75% vs torps. Which is it's own thing. So it would technically be a hardcap of 93.75% vs kinetic.
I was attempting a joke. Since the log files I've seen tell me that damage is going 95% to shields, 5% to hull, and you joked about the servers being powered about the 5% absorption, that'd be why they were having so many issues as of late.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Totally fail on my part...I'm trying to do stuff in the game, that I really just don't want to do - cause I see little point in doing it since at the end of the day I'll still barely be able to play because of the UI lag, the network latency, the random disconnects, and all the rest. I don't mind if something takes months to do if somewhere down the road I can actually enjoy it, but I don't even feel like doing stuff that takes less than an hour now knowing that I won't actually be able to enjoy it...so I'm kind of shutting my brain off over on the other monitor, and I totally missed that - completely forgot I'd said that about the 5%, heh. Yeah, the 5% magically absorbed...disappearing into the ether.
I want to break some myths right now about having to trade survivability for high DPS and vice versa.
The following are some screenshots of parses from 3 ISA runs i did yesterday.
PUG run #1
You can see i did the most damage, the most healing, and had the most damage in. I happened to die once because of lag/rubberbanding.
You can see the 3rd person in that parse did only 6k DPS but was somewhat close to me in healing and damage in. He actually threw me a couple heals during the run which is great; but if he had more DPS while keeping the same amount of healing and aggro it would have made the run a lot easier and quicker.
PUG run #2
A lot better run for me as there was a lot less lag. I did almost 3x the damage of everyone else combined, and almost 2x the healing and 2x the damage in of the rest of the group combined.
And yes, that is 85.6k DPS in a pug run, as a tac captain, in a DPS focused ship.
DPS Run
Here is a run with some of the guys from the DPS channel. Lots of lag and rubberbanding in this run unfortunately; but you can see i still did some decent damage, lots of healing, and a big share of the damage in although it was more spread out amongst the team.
---
It really is a fallacy to say that a ship dedicated to DPS isn't survivable, or can't heal, debuff, or crowd control.
Also that ships dedicated to healing, debuffing, control, and/or aggro management can't do DPS or any combination of these roles.
Most people are just deluding themselves and others. I've had people tell me that they don't do DPS because they are "Healers", but when i run with them and look at the parse after; i see that they only healed themselves.
Recently i saw someone who claimed he was a "Support Role", but in the run that i saw him in he didn't do any DPS, he didn't grab any aggro, he didn't use any crowd control, he didn't do any debuffing, and he didn't do any healing except use Needs of the Many once and the Samsar shield capacitance once...
In his own head he is doing perfectly fine, he's someone who supports his team and carries his own weight. In reality he's pretty useless and a burden to the team in Advanced/Elite queues.
These types of players you cannot help; if you try to offer them advice you're going to get vitreol ranging from "mah playstyle" to "you elitist" and much worse.
Oh, so do I. See signature. That's a 79k tank. Will provide parses upon request.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
The point to take away here is playing a game is about being free - that includes playing whatever build you want especially using any weapons you want.
One of the major un-appealing aspects of dps facisim is the behaviour you display right now...
Playing a game is being creative on your terms to hang loose and relax.
I get you saw an opening to stroke your ego with the upgrading system and the post DR grinding but please try to look at the bigger picture outside your little box.
It takes a lot of work to make it go right (which is part of the appeal... you need to pilot the heck out of a B'rel in PVE). Even decloaked & at full shields, I can easily be one-shotted at higher difficulties... so I know that others in the PUG will have to compensate for that.
My DPS is probably not ideal, but at the same time, I can spike hard & can quickly steal agro off the big DPSers, especially if I'm flanking. I also usually pack 2 Grav Wells (and at least one cooldown DOff) so that I know to look out for CC opportunities.
I aim to have fun. I can be a burden to a group in some ways, but then I try to make it up in others (even if I mess up horribly sometimes since I still make mistakes doing CC, which is an imperfect thing in this game).
That's really the bottom line... doing what I can, to the best of my ability. I'm not going to out-DPS anybody & I'm not going to soak up damage like a sponge (if I do soak up shots, it's purely on luck/high defense). What I will do is to do my best, to contribute as best as I can, even if my ship is sub-optimal for PVE.
If you're not contributing, even in a PUG, then why shouldn't people criticize? I deserve criticism when I play like TRIBBLE in my B'rel, but I know I can do better when that happens & it's on me to do better the next time.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
Last three runs? I'm too lazy for that. How about just the last one?
http://i.imgur.com/QaBGQNH.png
I'm not going to post the picture of me staring at the screen in a daze fascinated by the FX of the Vaad Arrays and Rapid Fire Missile while flying around in circles...I might have been drooling.
Here's the build for that run... http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=xenovirus_5343
Virus, why did you post that?
I'm bored.
It kind of sucks.
I don't have a fragile ego.
My max hit, wheeeeee, was a Quantum Torpedo - Salvo I from a Photonic Typhoon Battleship.
Cause that's how I roll...or is it more of a wobble?
Note: Still think everybody should grab a cheap Vaad Array off the Exchange, copy the toon to Tribble, and fire it a few times...who cares if it's useless against targets without shields, tell me that it doesn't look awesome with the visual FX of it firing...get six of those going and add in the Ferengi Rapid...oh yeah, baby...oh yeah. Hrmmm, I need a moment alone...back later. :cool:
You do realise that with all your BS about, well everything, you completely missed that the largest voice on DR release was that of the people from the DPS Channels's going WTF?
The only DPS "fascism" going is that of Cryptic requiring people to up their game from DERP to something resembling a ship that can do 1K of damage for normal. Hell when I started playing again I had better builds than half the people who I encountered in PUG's, yet I had no idea how to build. It seems logic is a rare thing these days.
If you really want to be creative in the game, by all means do so, just remember if you inflict that creativity on others in a negative way (which the "I'm playing my way so TRIBBLE you" is doing) then be prepared to have TRIBBLE thrown at you.
The only ePeen being stroked though is your own. Sarcasm just pointed out that to do other roles doesn't necessarily mean a need to sacrifice damage. When I see people claim TRIBBLE like Support and Healer, if they don't support or heal, they aren't doing their job. That support had better use TBR or Grav Well to keep those Sphere's away or do something useful, the Healer had better do some team healing instead of self-healing or they are just dead weight.
Yet they are the people who complain the loudest about people who actually do damage and other things...
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Prime example of why I want nothing to do with the behaviors that go with the DPS leagues: that stuff should be kept private. It's great when the DPS'ers do complain about what's wrong with the game but not so great when they undermine their position by boasting about what they can get away with. At the end of the day, it doesn't help anyone because the behavior does not align with the action.
Now does that mean EVERY person who does higher DPS does that kind of thing? No. Thankfully my own fleet doesn't have that issue--belittling other players or displaying intolerance towards others for play style, gear level, or skill level isn't permitted under the general rule against disrespect, which means those who might qualify as DPS'ers in our fleet are typically considerate and think about how their behavior impacts others. Those who don't consider that...it doesn't go over well at all.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I hate those...this guy always ticked me off with his boasting vids, like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MghiBW3r65M
Oh, oh, look how simple it is for me to paint a mountain...
The TRIBBLE, RIP, but the TRIBBLE!
Being told what to do, is the opposite of playing a game, being free and being creative. I'd take equally offense if someone came on the forums and starting telling people they HAD to eRP or PVP.
That's what I call "fascism", you aren't free to be yourself and you get shot as a degenerate and outlaw if you think freely.
That is how you choke a game and that is how you ruin people's recreational time. If you've ever heard people talking about a game as a "job" that is exactly the point they are bringing up being dictate, drained and generally having your day ruined.
Nowhere have I said the dps fixators are responsible for the planning and execution of DR. I think that is a whole other discussion.
The game has always been casual and that was actually the core strength. Want to fly your favorite ship, in messed up hybrid builds you find likeable go ahead.
And when I say always I mean 4-5 years, or half a decade the game has been working on the same core principles.
That premise was broken.
And the reasoning being, they decided to pimp out all the whales buying "the emperor's new clothes", copy-paste text with no animations, for millions of dil - per character.
So not only was the gameplay ruined, the queues killed, the players robbed - they also sold out and abandoned and failed their own core premise of the game people had previously paid them for.
I don't think you can say enough bad things about the whole thing?
Then now, after the fact yes, the dps'ers should same as everyone else stand up for a better quality game - one that is not simple jack but rather gives people what they were asking for, better gameplay.
... and not just more shield health you can dil compensate for using millions of dil for upgrading.
I call that slaving and budget coding and frankly yes I might come off a bit condescending if all these here facts aren't painfully obvious to you.
I nowhere in this thread have seen people referring to themselves in the third person.
I have to assume you mean this quote from sarcasm:
But, if you read anything he said, he was referring to someone else.
And if asking you to do the bare minimum dps required so we don't fail the queue due to the timer is fascism, you need to do some serious thinking.
I saw no facts, I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
My point is for the DPS crowd. Just how do you expect the novice player to jump from episodes to the dizzying heights of DPS? Do you really think all players are willing to endure the effort? How can the game survive if it becomes the DPS black box of mystery?
For the novice player there is no clear path forward. He will attempt a STF and perform poorly. Perhaps someone will give a few sage words of advice, in between the insults. He then navigates player channels, special forums, hundreds of choices of gear, complex formulas, lengthy calculations and endless testing. With fanatical effort he will get to the inner circle. However his position is precarious with the constant flow of patches, updated and competitors. It definitely sounds like a job, but he is the one paying with time and money. Maybe he would be better off learning to play the stock market instead.
Let's see. He could read the /r/stobuilds wiki. Preuse the builds we've posted. Ask questions in dps-public, redditchat, or the other open public channels we're in. Ask us questions in-game. Watch the videos made to help them. Make a post asking for help. Our information isn't exactly hard to find. I, in fact, have links to two of those great resources in my signature for just such reasons.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
You are not comparing beams and cannons. you are comparing a run by a different player therefore different skill level in pve, and their support team. That is if the cannon run even had a support team like the beam had both in skill and build.
You are also comparing a map that is optimal for beam FAW which is ISA. Just like in the ground the difference between NTTE and BHE. NTTE is Ambush, single target friendly but not so much on multiple mobs at the same time like BHE which is mine/bomb/orbital beam friendly. Thats why the optimal dps in NTTE is held by tacs and optimal DPS for BHE is held by Engs.
Regardless if you put a balance between the two, someone has got to win that dps race whether it be torps, cannons or beams.
Finally, it is hard to find if what you want is balance of the game mechanics because of balance between players, when there is a player skill difference both in piloting and knowledge of the mechanics, and the respective team's build and skill difference.
But, at this point Ive done 8 ISA's today, 6 were pugs, 2 were 10k channel run. Died once. Yet I see posts and the 10k Channel itself. "Ive done 1 ISA and died 7 times!" stuff. so I dont get it.
If I can survive ISA taking 60-70% of the damage and live 7 out of 8 runs. What is it the others are annoyed about? Why are people in the DPS channel dying?
I changed a bit of my tactics. Went AOE heal and as much DPS as I can. in one of those 10k runs. I only did 24k, and a scimi did 74k. I still took in 60% of the damage. And healed out 1mil.
Add some heals or something. wth. The Pugs that went the smoothest were the ones that had a SCi CC guy, and an escort or two. you know, the Focused Single Target old school stuff. So they dont target the whole map? lol
Leave that to a player like me. Let me tank that for you.
Give me my role back. lol. I'm gonna fully enjoy this weekend because if they change this challenge it will kinda suck IMO. I like the Idea of having more then everyone Full on DPS!
Wow! The voice of reason. I tip my hat to you, sir
With all due respect, this is literally the bigger load of horse manure I've seen in a post on these forums for a long time.