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Would you support a PvP balance pass if it help the PvE meta?
praxi5
Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
If the Devs sat down and gave PvP a good overhaul by changing mechanics/abilities/balance, would you support it if it helped the PvE meta? Maybe address the ever increasing power creep? Perhaps, once a relatively stable balance has been achieved (yes yes, people will argue that you can never have true "balance"), it could encourage more people to PvP, thereby opening a whole new arena of content instead of the constant ISA/Argala/STF grind?
For example, instead of everyone running around with AP FAW Beam Boats/cookie cutter builds, there would be more variety.
Ignored abilities like Aceton Beam/Tachyon Beam/Charged Particle Burst might be buffed into usefulness, giving a real reason to run something outside of TBR/GW Sci.
You might actually see someone using Dual Cannons for the first time in the history of STO.
Now obsolete ships like the Excelsior might make a comeback.
So on and so forth.
Thoughts?
*Disclaimer: Of course, this does not preclude bug fixes. Those should come regardless of whatever else they decide to work on.
For example, instead of everyone running around with AP FAW Beam Boats/cookie cutter builds, there would be more variety.
Ignored abilities like Aceton Beam/Tachyon Beam/Charged Particle Burst might be buffed into usefulness, giving a real reason to run something outside of TBR/GW Sci.
You might actually see someone using Dual Cannons for the first time in the history of STO.
Now obsolete ships like the Excelsior might make a comeback.
So on and so forth.
Thoughts?
*Disclaimer: Of course, this does not preclude bug fixes. Those should come regardless of whatever else they decide to work on.
Post edited by praxi5 on
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1) I didn't know my Excelsior was obsolete, it seems just fine when I fly it.
2) I don't grind Argala/ISA/STFs in general.
3) I wouldn't do PvP if you paid me.
However, I'm broadly in favour of supporting different styles of play, so put me down as an extremely qualified "yes", if you feel like.
Power creep has been a bit abused in STO, though. Its like the devs skipped their math classes and do not know how adding a little bit here and there multiples up to a LOT total. And the whole "bigger better officer skills" on "better ships" with bigger weapons and .... well it was a lot to throw in all at once.
That said, I would support bringing unused things up to par.
What I would most like to see is *content* that uses all the classes... require a tough ship to grab aggro and tank something, require someone to heal the tank, give the dps something to chew on, all in a big fun fight. Or more of the stuff like mirror invasion where role has an effect on ability to do some jobs.
Couple the above with bringing some unused abilities up to par and throwing a bone to eng/sci players, esp eng.
But I would not support *many* nerfs. Bring everything up to the current level, open up some choices, yes, do that. But don't bring AP down to tet level, or nerf APA so that eng and sci are brought up to par. That is lazy, and I do not and will not support it. The bulk of the problems can be fixed without major nerfs.
I don't think it's possible at all, considering Cryptic's history. But I would gladly live with a big nerf to PvE (and I do a lot of PvE) if it's gonna make PvP interesting again.
STO Screenshot Archive
Tachyon Beam & Charged Particle Burst have gotten their boost through the secondary deflector.
For aceton beam i would triple/quadruple the radiation damage OR deliver that radiation damage in one hit instead of DoT because the debuff is so easily cleared.
Cryptic likes the status quo since it's responsible for their income, and players want to remain invincible and not see their efforts wasted.
nah sometimes its fun to duel a fleety/friend and get some help on a new build or whatnot. outside of this, yes it should.
Honestly? No. PvP feedback generally amounts to 'Everything that is even remotely good, and makes me unable to win, needs to be nerfed.' Perhaps even valid, from a PvP perspective. But I'm a PVE-er, and balance looks just fine to me: NPC loses, I win. I like it that way, I paid for it that way.
(UFP) Ragnar
Balance period, PVP or otherwise.
To the OP, much as I dislike PVP, even balancing the game around PVP would be better than the current DPS-or-go-home garbage. Heck even pulling out the trinity system, flawed as it is, would be preferable to the current meta. Trying to rebuild the game around PVP would be a mistake I think, but just keeping the concept in mind at all would be an improvement.
My character Tsin'xing
That. Much more succinct than my version, so I'll just quote you instead.
I'll take the Tachyon console from the new command ships as a prime example. It drains double the amount in PvE as it does in PvP.
For PvP the console is like throwing an AoE shield drain version of Tachyon Beam 3 (Pretty nasty thing, but since shield drains were marginalized for so long, I say good one). Combined with the fact that the command specialization focuses on torps, it provides for a nice way to try a torp boat build (Get shield down and hit that base hull hard with TS3). Frankly, a very well made ship (but again, too bad it's a damn cruiser).
For PvE the console drains twice the amount of shields. Not sure how useful that is against advanced/elite NPCs as I don't have the ships to test it, but given the increase in shields and hull in NPCs, it's well designed in theory.
A lot of abilities (including the intel ones) need a second pass to rebalance them to adjust for the current state of the game.
Surgical Strikes - The effects should be halved against players
Charged Particle Burst - Adjusted up overall, and split PvE vs PvP effect.
Tachyon Beam - Same as CPB
And this is; ladies and gentlemen, why MMOs needed to switch to F2P.
There were no more real gamers involved in game and in consequence P2Winners were forced to leave games that provided no challenging enemies as well.
This was the downfall of subscription based system and 99.9% of developers switched to F2P with "micro" transactions to keep the playerbase number and skill coefficient steady.
Game without challenge is no game. STO is leaking skilled P2W and skilled F2P gamers on thousand holes because of new grind/pay barriers.
Now , even if you pay, you still need to grind.
Now, even if you're good, you still have time barrier.
There is no harm in making the game good, having more options for FUN.
More PvP, More PvE, more Exploration, More Fleet stuff, more everything.
It can't hurt making the game better to more people.
Anyone arguing against this didn't think that through or just trolls.
I, as a player, have absolutely no obligation or desire to worry what will make developer more money.
It is the Developer that has to worry how to keep biggest possible audience in the game. Happy.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Lol, here is a person who probably has a DPS boat and uses 1/5th of all the abilities available to players.
1) As far as the old abilites go, we actually want boosts to the underutilized ones and no changes to the ones people love (which amounts to the tac ones mainly which need no adjustments).
2) A couple of the intel abilites (I think 1 space and 1 ground since Ionic Turbulence is already getting adjusted for PvP) need to be toned down (SS and the one that teleports people on ground), but some them are underwhelming and could potentially need a boost.
However seeing as this game is full of carebares and Cryptic is never going to give us a proper balance pass.... as it may hinder sales to people that have zero clue what they are doing. There by being able to sell a ton of power creep to people that can barely function in a video game so they can seem competent in there own minds. Thus being good little customers continuing to open there wallets every time Cryptic decides to sell another 9 ships in a $100+ mega pack.
Anyway guess I'm getting at the following.
If we want properly balanced fun PvP in STO. It would require Cryptic removing it from PvE mechanics. A system where EVERYTHING was stripped down... weapons / doffs / boffs ect ect. I'm not going to knock myself out detailing a proper STO pvp system. Cryptic has seen me post threadnaughts about exactly that in the past. I have no doubt people like bort read it... so there is no point typing it all out again. lol
In all seriousness though... a broken out solidly balanced PvP game. Would sell well and even the people whos only response is "kill PvP" would be likely to enjoy it if they tried it out. (assuming Cryptic didn't simply introduce another path of Creep and $ for power)
Every time it's done, it ends up in more nerfs because the PvP'ers always cry more nerf, so the whole "helps the PvE meta"... it's just not going to happen.
I'm guessing the OP's point though is not to just balance PVP, but to get the PVEers like myself on board with such a revamp if in exchange that revamp also fixed the power-creep-dps-grind nonsense that PVE currently is. Pulling out a couple powers to simply work differently in PVP, that may be great for PVP but doesn't do TRIBBLE for the other 95% of the game, and I doubt Cryptic would set aside the man-hours to balance just PVP alone. On the other hand, give and take; I'm sure there are plenty of PVEers who dislike PVP but would offer their support for a revamp if they also stood to benefit.
This game has never ever had a PvP balance pass so how would we know.
Not one of the skill changes ever made in this game had anything to do with PvP...
Sorry I stand corrected... Viral Matrix, Scramble Sensors, and Jam sensors have had tweeks and restrictive lockouts to avoid chain stuns / and perma jams. With a possible half pvp reason for a few item changes like cool downs on harpang torps.
Name one skill other then the scramble/stun/jam style skills or items that have had changes that you could point at PvP being a reason. As far as I know those skills have almost zero use in PvE so shouldn't effect you or any other PvE only player.
To which nerfs are you referring?
Nerfs aren't the only other way to bring balance, keep that in mind. Some things can get buffed, some things can have their interactions changed, mechanics can be tweaked, etc.
The idea is to have more things be viable, so it's not all cookie cutter like it is now.
One thing that could also come about, if overall DPS is lowered due to ridiculous amounts of stacking (again, as an example. They could keep damage where it is while buffing other things instead), NPCs could have their HP lowered while giving them abilities like AP: Delta to make it challenging.
Lets see:
Gravity Well and Tykens were broken (underperforming) - Fixed thanks to PvP crowd
Tachyon Beam had 1 less pulse than advertised - Fixed thanks to my constant complaints
Deflector doff not cooling down all abilities listed - Fixed thank to my constant complaints
We do not nerf everything just stuff that's way too strong.
Exactly this.
There are those who are staunchly against everything PvP (and like to blame it for everything), but if PvP improvements were brought about in a way that helps everyone, everyone wins!
Two or three balance adjustments would mean the world to PvPers. Please just give us a couple concessions and we'll leave you alone.
Create three ships (ENG/SCI/TAC)with FIXED equipment, fixed boffs, no traits enabled etc etc. That way you can easily control the balance.
Anything else is a time consuming mine-field that isnt in the best interests of Cryptic/PWE. By best interests of course I mean it isnt going to turn a profit.
VPvP failed when it was tried as a player driven endeavor. Probably because people want to use the shiney gear to roflstomp noobs. Have fun trying to convince Cryptic/PWE otherwise.
FWIW I used to PvP in STO. I gave it up and I haven't missed it one bit. I play other games when I need that PvP fix