Gonna take worffan's and rewrite it as it should had been. If the writers could be bloody competent and consider that people develop and improve as they experience new stuff.
Janeway--Skills: moral leadership, stickler for protocol, tries to do the right thing by Federation Law.
Flaws: Forgets that Federation law applies in an environment where survival of the fittest isn't necessary. Takes things too personally without thinking of the consequences until it is too late. Gets too narrow-focused on issues without taking a step back. Not a strategist. They constantly hit the reset button on Janeway... she'd learn her mistakes by the end of the episode only to repeat it later such as not having her finger on the shield/weapon button when new ships approach.
Chakotay--Skills: advanced tactical training resulting in guerrilla leader skills but rarely is given the chance to demonstrate. Is creative and when leads, thinks of interesting strategies. Holds the moral high ground on Voyager.
Flaws: Token leader, not often given a chance to lead. I suspect the crew is actually more loyal to him than to Janeway as when Janeway gets out of control, he brings her back in line (this applies after the equinox incident). They had the potential to turn this man into a psychologist of sorts but didn't really. He could had been the man the crew goes to talk to, when they have problems on a more regular basis.
Tuvok--Skills: Competent security officer, generally sensible in other areas.
Flaws: Nobody EVER listens to him.
(Bang on, not gonna adjust this but want to comment) I suspect the largely human crew is a bit racist here. They ignore Tuvok and actually tried to stage a mutiny when he was in command. Tuvok has offered pretty sound advice which was rejected. The only officer who seems to take his advice seriously was Chakotay.
The holodoc--Skills: Brilliant physician and expert surgeon, talented pathologist and neurologist. Is a hologram with an AI. Excellent learning skills.
Flaws: can be abrasive, tends to attract a lot of negativity with his attitude. Doesn't always know when to shut up. Extremely full of himself. Probably the only character to actually receive proper character development over the series arc
Seven of Nine--Skills: Highly intelligent. Excellent in personal combat. Science and Engineering skills are above par.
Flaws: Social skills sucks. Thinks of the greater good without considering who's going to get hurt. Thinks too much about numbers. Not advisable to have her in a command position. This character, like the doctor has received some character development but she tended to be used too much to save the day.
Torres--Skills: Grease monkey.
Flaws: Temper makes her unable to think things through and tends to make her make stupid mistakes she shouldn't make. Could be from an abusive childhood. There was promise here to develop her character, to use her temper to generate issues and gradually work on it. It should had been done over the series arc rather than one or two episodes focusing on her, just bits here and there plus her falling in love with Tom sometimes seems to take huge jumps rather than gradual.
Harry Kim--Skills: Excellent manager. Can think of creative solutions. Problem-solver. Can think on his feet.
Flaws: Unable to take criticism, failure makes him moody and sulky. Does not know how to use a condom. This character was meant to play the role of the naive kid fresh out of the academy. Rarely is he improved, showing wisdom. It tends to be in jumps. Sometimes he'd be too confident and other times too green. It's not consistent
Tom Paris--Skills: Special Forces. Excellent pilot, can fly anything, hotwire anything and can treat battlefield injuries. His cooking skills are excellent and he has excellent memory retention. He's the guy you send in for crisis situations when you need the lowest number of troops deployed.
Flaws: cocky. Never used as a teacher to train the other officers in flying, medics and other stuff special forces should know. Can get a wee bit obsessive. He's the admiral's kid. There's nothing mentioned on why he has all those awesome skills. I mean, why didn't someone go "Hmm, Paris can cook, can fight, fly, hotwire stuff and can treat injuries on the battlefield. He's confident and clearly has command training. Hey Paris, are you Special Ops?" There was a huge potential right there to develop that right there. Little bit later, Paris could sit down with the Captain and say "Sorry Cap, I was sent to infiltrate the Marquis and yeah, got caught. Couldn't exactly shoot my way out of there. We had to let the charges proceed and not cover it up. I was supposed to disable Voyager when you caught up with the Marquis and get myself back in their ranks. Caretaker screwed this up. So yeah... could I work with the security teams and get them to be much better trained? Tuvok's decent but he doesn't have the combat training I got"
Neelix--Skills: Resourceful. Excellent at talking and getting agreements. Has a flair for diplomacy.
Flaws: Oversells himself and Voyager, potentially creating difficulties for the crew. Must keep an eye on him to prevent him from getting ahead of himself. He's supposed to be comic relief but never really was used that way. A good character development would had been the Doctor saying "OKAY I'VE HAD ENOUGH!" and proceeds to show Neelix how to actually cook and give him a crash course in human biology and how his food keeps sending patients to the Doctor. It'd had been awesome having those two actors doing a duet, both of them having it out. Neelix fed up with the Doctor's attitude and the Doctor fed up with Neelix's bad cooking. Maybe on a planet where Janeway sends them both to find food, edible food for the ship's crew, they crash and Voyager is driven off for the moment.
Kes--Skills: Telepathic, excellent memory retention. Easy to teach and train.
Flaws: naive. weak-willed. lacks confidence and this can lead to issues. Perhaps this weakness led to the misunderstanding between the Federation and the Undine.
Kes is sort of a Mary Sue. She's supposed to be sweet, curious, exploring and childlike, growing up on the show. The actress did an amazing job at this. However again, reset button was used too much and hindered her a bit.
Voyager had potential to be an excellent show. The actors were pretty good, but the problem was the writers kept hitting the reset button. Torres could have had it out with Janeway complaining about constant repairs and how if you keep fixing the ship outside of drydock, eventually the cracks can't be repaired anymore. It's kind of like biology, too much surgery and you get this mesh under your skin that makes further surgery difficult. Security crews could had been better trained by both Paris and Tuvok to do more than just shoot. I mean if I was getting boarded a lot, I'd had changed the uniform of my security officers to have a retractable blade, a sidearm and a rifle. I'd build in internal automated defences. All crew members would be trained and constantly put to work on how to fight and how to repair the ship. They'd be given medic training, close quarters training and field repair work. With Seven of Nine, I'd had then given the crew nanoprobes to quickly repair battle injuries and repel Borg assimilation nanoprobes. I'd had kept the Borg technology and when people asked, I'd reply "The Borg tried to assimilate us. They failed." That'd actually convince a lot of bad guys to go away. I'd expand hydroponics and train a portion of the crew in how to harvest the fields.
I agree on most counts, though I don't think there WAS a misunderstanding during first contact with the Undine.
Also, I would add that in the early show the Starfleet side of the crew didn't trust Chakotay because he was Maquis.
On the Borg VS. Undine debate, I never once said that the Undine are good people; in fact, I have explicitly stated that their society is racist, xenophobic, and stagnated. However, they are a society of individuals, which INHERENTLY makes them better than the Borg, which is one insane mind with trillions of bodies. Simply because they are individuals, there MUST be some Undine who are more nasty than the ones we first met...and some that are more congenial.
Since the Borg is one, insane mind, it cannot be reasoned with, and there really is no point in even trying, since no connected drone is ever going to show a dissenting opinion.
Personally, I think that you're wearing blinders the size of Texas, both for the obvious fact that the Undine are individuals and the Borg is an omnicidal hive entity, and the slightly more obvious fact that not one person involved with Voyager could write his or her way out of a box.
What? Have the man fulfill the actual role of an XO? Madness!!
Pity that if I invented time-travel technology, I'd be busy fixing other flaws in history, and might not get around to having you sit down and lecture Berman and Braga (and the VOY writing staff) at length before the first episode was finalized...
Sometimes he does fill the role of XO but sometimes he's underutilized.
I agree on most counts, though I don't think there WAS a misunderstanding during first contact with the Undine.
Also, I would add that in the early show the Starfleet side of the crew didn't trust Chakotay because he was Maquis.And you say that I oversimplify things....
Not a misunderstanding on the Federation's side. No, but on the Undine's side.
Yes, that's why I said he got more loyalty after Equinox.
How am I oversimplifying? I am simply stating the objective facts, that the Undine species is a collection of individuals, whereas the Borg entity is one individual with trillions of bodies.
You're deliberately misinterpreting everything I say so that your precious Captain Perfect can fly off in her Sue-powered ship and use bioweapons without consequences, then act sanctimonious about it. Please look at yourself in a mirror, and stop.
Which is your personal, probably incorrect opinion.
*Picard Facepalm.*
Wow. Worffan... this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. I mean... really? You're smarter than this.
If it's his opinion, it can't be incorrect, because it's an opinion. By saying that, it comes across as if you're holding your opinion as being fact and his opinion as being absolutely and utterly wrong. It makes you look like a troll.
Seriously, re-read what you said and tell me you don't see where I'm coming from.
Wow. Worffan... this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. I mean... really? You're smarter than this.
If it's his opinion, it can't be incorrect, because it's an opinion. By saying that, it comes across as if you're holding your opinion as being fact and his opinion as being absolutely and utterly wrong. It makes you look like a troll.
Seriously, re-read what you said and tell me you don't see where I'm coming from.
Opinions CAN be incorrect.
Take Ken Ham. He thinks that Earth was created 6 thousand or so years ago by a magic sky man. This is manifestly incorrect.
There's a guy on the internet called Bill Crofut who thinks that the sun goes around the Earth. This also is observably untrue.
I am of the opinion that "they" or "their" should not be used to refer to one person except in certain cases of unusual gender identity. The Merriam-Webster dictionary, however, says that I'm wrong; and if I were to walk into a bunch of English specialists and rant about this subject, I'd be laughed out of the room for being a moron.
Opinions can be untrue. I've used some pretty extreme examples, but my point is valid; just because something is your opinion doesn't protect it from being blatantly untrue.
Markhawkman thinks that that lone Undine soldier, which almost certainly had never encountered non-Borg humanoids before, knew exactly what Harry Kim was when it attacked and somehow expressed active malice with a clear warning shot. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the Starfish Aliens nature of the Undine, and is hence almost certainly incorrect. And since the writers appear to have never thought of the implications of that scene (because as has been previously established they were morons), we have no Word of God on this, either.
Just as Neelix was a bad attempt to rip off Quark and Odo, and the Kazon were bad attempts to rip off the Klingons, Harry Kim was clearly an attempt to rip off Sulu; cast a decent-looking non-Caucasian guy in a minor role, and watch the numbers trickle in. Of course, they neglected to give him any character development whatsoever, so they kind of failed (just as they did with neelix and the Kazon).
Take your arrogance and crippling lack of self-confidence elsewhere, please.
Just as Neelix was a bad attempt to rip off Quark and Odo, and the Kazon were bad attempts to rip off the Klingons, Harry Kim was clearly an attempt to rip off Sulu; cast a decent-looking non-Caucasian guy in a minor role, and watch the numbers trickle in. Of course, they neglected to give him any character development whatsoever, so they kind of failed (just as they did with neelix and the Kazon).
Exhibit B. Because a character is Asian, according to Ba'alfan, he's a "ripoff" of an older Asian character, even if no character traits were shared between the two.
Exhibit B. Because a character is Asian, according to Ba'alfan, he's a "ripoff" of an older Asian character, even if no character traits were shared between the two.
Stay "classy" Ba'alfan.
Name 1 other Asian main from TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY.
I dare you.
Name one other main with a vaguely-defined role who always seemed to be doing whatever needed a warm body.
I dare you.
Name one other main who was advertised at one point as the "new Sulu".
Because he's in a similar role, has a similar appearance, and was at one point advertised as the "new Sulu", I'd say he was an attempt to rip off Sulu's success.
More importantly, though, like everything else on Voyager except the holodoc he got no development to speak of.
Take Ken Ham. He thinks that Earth was created 6 thousand or so years ago by a magic sky man. This is manifestly incorrect.
There's a guy on the internet called Bill Crofut who thinks that the sun goes around the Earth. This also is observably untrue.
I am of the opinion that "they" or "their" should not be used to refer to one person except in certain cases of unusual gender identity. The Merriam-Webster dictionary, however, says that I'm wrong; and if I were to walk into a bunch of English specialists and rant about this subject, I'd be laughed out of the room for being a moron.
Opinions can be untrue. I've used some pretty extreme examples, but my point is valid; just because something is your opinion doesn't protect it from being blatantly untrue.
Markhawkman thinks that that lone Undine soldier, which almost certainly had never encountered non-Borg humanoids before, knew exactly what Harry Kim was when it attacked and somehow expressed active malice with a clear warning shot. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the Starfish Aliens nature of the Undine, and is hence almost certainly incorrect. And since the writers appear to have never thought of the implications of that scene (because as has been previously established they were morons), we have no Word of God on this, either.
In fairness to him, the Undine was telepathic, and was using that telepathy to track Kim. Borg don't have emotions, but Kim did. Now, I don't agree with the perception that the Undine was in any position to actually identify Kim, and consider the whole incident to be 'Prometheus Incident'-like (B5 Reference).
But there is one obvious thing you've missed; a race of high-level telepaths such as the Undine would very likely be similar in one respect - they'd share thoughts between each other. This is vaguely alluded to in the Terradome episode. Such a society would be very consensual - that is, they'd agree on most matters.
Going back to the B5 reference I made earlier, consider the emotions going through the Undine Species at the time; they'd been attacked by these bipedal creatures from an alien dimension, who killed their people. They went into a blood rage - as the Minbari did after their leader was killed in B5.
There was no way they were going to stop with the Borg - all life in our galaxy was a threat from their perspective. This can be seen with Voyager's attempt to contact the Undine vessel - a war cry, despite the fact that that Undine had the opportunity right there to realise that Voyager had no idea what happened. The Undine were attacked and responded the only way they could - kill everything that is a threat.
That does not mean I approve of Janeway's response, just that I personally do not see the Undine stopping with the Borg.
"It's a holy war, Delenn!"
B5 and Star Trek have many similarities; races going on a genocidal rampage over a misunderstanding is one of them. And like the Minbari, that does not make the Undine the villains. Something the writers totally failed to realise.
Name 1 other Asian main from TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY.
I dare you.
Name one other main with a vaguely-defined role who always seemed to be doing whatever needed a warm body.
I dare you.
Name one other main who was advertised at one point as the "new Sulu".
Because he's in a similar role, has a similar appearance, and was at one point advertised as the "new Sulu", I'd say he was an attempt to rip off Sulu's success.
More importantly, though, like everything else on Voyager except the holodoc he got no development to speak of.
You're really reaching here, and it's boring.
You're the one reaching. As pointed out in that other thread, Kim had nothing in common with Sulu... not even their role. Sulu drove the Enterprise as its helmsman and was a lieutenant. Meanwhile, Kim was in operations and was a lowly ensign... and the differences only got bigger from there.
But go ahead, keep trying to justify your bigotry... it's entertaining.
Exhibit B. Because a character is Asian, according to Ba'alfan, he's a "ripoff" of an older Asian character, even if no character traits were shared between the two.
Stay "classy" Ba'alfan.
Oh, give me a break! That's like saying Data wasn't a ripoff (I prefer 'homage') of Spock, despite the fact that they filled the same role, in many cases had similar stories, and using your only justification as 'but Data wanted to be human, while Spock tried to hide his human side!'
Another example Pulaski. She was even stated to be a homage to McCoy by the writers! Yet, she was female, so clearly she can't be a homage to McCoy, right? /sarcasm
A character doesn't have to fully replicate another character to be ripping them off or paying homage!
In fairness to him, the Undine was telepathic, and was using that telepathy to track Kim. Borg don't have emotions, but Kim did. Now, I don't agree with the perception that the Undine was in any position to actually identify Kim, and consider the whole incident to be 'Prometheus Incident'-like (B5 Reference).
The Borg entity has emotions; the drones do not, but the Borg does, and the Undine probably have picked up on that.
But there is one obvious thing you've missed; a race of high-level telepaths such as the Undine would very likely be similar in one respect - they'd share thoughts between each other. This is vaguely alluded to in the Terradome episode. Such a society would be very consensual - that is, they'd agree on most matters.
Agree on the thought-sharing, but disagree on consensus. Hell, look at Betazoids...did Troi and her mom EVER get along, despite Troi being raised on Betazed?
Going back to the B5 reference I made earlier, consider the emotions going through the Undine Species at the time; they'd been attacked by these bipedal creatures from an alien dimension, who killed their people. They went into a blood rage - as the Minbari did after their leader was killed in B5.
There was no way they were going to stop with the Borg - all life in our galaxy was a threat from their perspective. This can be seen with Voyager's attempt to contact the Undine vessel - a war cry, despite the fact that that Undine had the opportunity right there to realise that Voyager had no idea what happened. The Undine were attacked and responded the only way they could - kill everything that is a threat.
H'mmmmm...I think that you're misjudging things slightly here.
Facts:
1. The Borg attacked Undine space.
2. The Undine's dominant culture is racist and xenophobic.
3. The Undine are still individuals.
I'd compare the Undine to America during the Cold War period, without a pseudo-strong Soviet Union to actually hold us back. Not the Minbari, but a mixed society led by a majority of racist, xenophobic bigots.
This is a society whose leaders use hate and fear of others as a weapon. There are still people in that society, however, who don't really see the point of beating the tar out of little guys in other places.
I'm saying that while the Undine are majorly upset and on the warpath (pardon the phrasing), they are still a society of individuals, and hence susceptible to diplomacy.
Hell, that Undine soldier pretty clearly realized that it f*cked up after Harry et al's reaction differed from the Standard Borg Tactics. It shot an obvious warning shot off of Voyager's bow and left.
The Borg entity has emotions; the drones do not, but the Borg does, and the Undine probably have picked up on that.
But yeah, Prometheus incident.
Agree on the thought-sharing, but disagree on consensus. Hell, look at Betazoids...did Troi and her mom EVER get along, despite Troi being raised on Betazed?
H'mmmmm...I think that you're misjudging things slightly here.
Facts:
1. The Borg attacked Undine space.
2. The Undine's dominant culture is racist and xenophobic.
3. The Undine are still individuals.
I'd compare the Undine to America during the Cold War period, without a pseudo-strong Soviet Union to actually hold us back. Not the Minbari, but a mixed society led by a majority of racist, xenophobic bigots.
This is a society whose leaders use hate and fear of others as a weapon. There are still people in that society, however, who don't really see the point of beating the tar out of little guys in other places.
I'm saying that while the Undine are majorly upset and on the warpath (pardon the phrasing), they are still a society of individuals, and hence susceptible to diplomacy.
Hell, that Undine soldier pretty clearly realized that it f*cked up after Harry et al's reaction differed from the Standard Borg Tactics. It shot an obvious warning shot off of Voyager's bow and left.
That could be true, or it could be that the Undine was still running on adrenaline (the Undine equivalent, at least) and simply missed and ran out of fear? It had be cornered by the Borg and suddenly came across a new threat which had his ship at its mercy (not at the time realising Voyager had no chance of destroying his ship). I would run. The Undine, as you point out, are not above fear. Even though they're superior, they aren't Vulcan.
That could be true, or it could be that the Undine was still running on adrenaline (the Undine equivalent, at least) and simply missed and ran out of fear? It had be cornered by the Borg and suddenly came across a new threat which had his ship at its mercy (not at the time realising Voyager had no chance of destroying his ship). I would run. The Undine, as you point out, are not above fear. Even though they're superior, they aren't Vulcan.
That is possible, too; however, Undine soldiers have shown a lot of arrogance with regard to new threats, so I find it more likely that xe was simply confused and (like any rational creature that finds itself confused and in a hostile environment) decided to split before something bad happened.
Same concept, different method of application, basically.
There is no way to prove for certain that the Earth was not created by a magic sky man 6,000 years ago. If we have a magic sky man that can create the Earth, then he could fabricate evidence to make the Earth much older than it really was. For all we know, the Universe is a complete fabrication and we are just bacteria on a petri dish being studied by some aliens beyond our comprehension or we are in the Matrix. Of course, both opinions are unpopular and unverifiable without extraordinary evidence, but they are still opinions. History is full of unpopular and unverifiable opinions becoming fact like the earth going around the sun. There is no problem with having some weird opinion. The problem with Ken Ham is that he is trying to influence children to believe his opinions are real. That is the job of parents.
The sun goes around the earth opinion is completely and utterly wrong since there is a large amount of evidence to support the earth going around the sun.
Oh, give me a break! That's like saying Data wasn't a ripoff (I prefer 'homage') of Spock, despite the fact that they filled the same role, in many cases had similar stories, and using your only justification as 'but Data wanted to be human, while Spock tried to hide his human side!'
Another example Pulaski. She was even stated to be a homage to McCoy by the writers! Yet, she was female, so clearly she can't be a homage to McCoy, right? /sarcasm
A character doesn't have to fully replicate another character to be ripping them off or paying homage!
Actually, those comparisons are a lot closer than a Sulu/Kim comparison will ever be. And they were pretty blatant with Pulaski who pretty much copied McCoy's personality nuance by nuance, right down to the irrational fear of transporters. They didn't even try making her her own character.
But I fail to see how simply being Asian makes someone a ripoff of someone else when I have already pointed out that the two characters had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common beyond race. You're simply trying to justify bigotry.
That is possible, too; however, Undine soldiers have shown a lot of arrogance with regard to new threats, so I find it more likely that xe was simply confused and (like any rational creature that finds itself confused and in a hostile environment) decided to split before something bad happened.
Same concept, different method of application, basically.
Exactly.
Of course, it's open to interpretation because, as was common on Voyager, the writers didn't bother to give any development to 8472 beyond 'they're the bad guys'. We have no idea what the Undine were thinking at the time, let alone that lone soldier, because the writers couldn't even dare to take the focus off "our heroes".
Scorpion, despite being one of the best-made episodes of Voyager, also happens to be one of the worst-written, in my opinion. They gave us this big new villain and then didn't even bother to explain how they worked. With the Borg, we at least knew from the get-go that they were a Collective Consciousness (I don't consider the Queen to have existed until they dumped Hugh in the Collective, as that's the only reason a Queen would have made sense to the Borg). With the Undine? 'They bad. Go kill'.
Actually, those comparisons are a lot closer than a Sulu/Kim comparison will ever be. And they were pretty blatant with Pulaski who pretty much copied McCoy's personality nuance by nuance, right down to the irrational fear of transporters. They didn't even try making her her own character.
But I fail to see how simply being Asian makes someone a ripoff of someone else when I have already pointed out that the two characters had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common beyond race. You're simply trying to justify bigotry.
Okay, get your facts straight before accusing me of racism. At no point there did I say 'Kim is a rip-off of Sulu because he's Asian'. In fact, I agree with you in that I think there aren't enough similarities to call him a 'rip-off'. However, when he is advertised as a ripoff (literally 'the new Sulu') then that is effectively sanctioned as the Producers' intent. In other words, from the moment Paramount started advertising him as 'The New Sulu', he became a rip-off. They attached Sulu's character to Kim's - the same way they attached McCoy's to Pulaski and Spock to Data's. The difference is that those two were actually developed. The writers' had such contradictory ideas of Kim that whenever he did get development it didn't fit his character from previous episodes.
Of course, it's open to interpretation because, as was common on Voyager, the writers didn't bother to give any development to 8472 beyond 'they're the bad guys'. We have no idea what the Undine were thinking at the time, let alone that lone soldier, because the writers couldn't even dare to take the focus off "our heroes".
Scorpion, despite being one of the best-made episodes of Voyager, also happens to be one of the worst-written, in my opinion. They gave us this big new villain and then didn't even bother to explain how they worked. With the Borg, we at least knew from the get-go that they were a Collective Consciousness (I don't consider the Queen to have existed until they dumped Hugh in the Collective, as that's the only reason a Queen would have made sense to the Borg). With the Undine? 'They bad. Go kill'.
Sigh...
Well, it's Voyager, a show that dumped the Vidiians off as a one-note villain to focus more on the galactic Three Million Stooges--I mean, the Kazon. What do you seriously expect?
And speaking of the Kazon...this is a species that successfully killed themselves BY ACCIDENT with a REPLICATOR. Forget being a serious threat, that's dumber than the stereotypical cavemen on that planet from Basics.
Anyway...Voyager focused on flashy action over actual thought, which as we both know is a problem in the Trek fandom, where most people are intelligent enough to see through BS.
Just like the Token Black Guy on ENT...or Scotty becoming ChENG in the JJVerse by sheer proximity to a uniform...or Nero sitting on his butt and doing jack sh*t for twenty-five ******n years...
Actually, basically everything since DS9 ended has been one long downhill slide of actionification. At least VOY had the holodoc and ENT had Shran...
Okay, get your facts straight before accusing me of racism. At no point there did I say 'Kim is a rip-off of Sulu because he's Asian'. In fact, I agree with you in that I think there aren't enough similarities to call him a 'rip-off'. However, when he is advertised as a ripoff (literally 'the new Sulu') then that is effectively sanctioned as the Producers' intent. In other words, from the moment Paramount started advertising him as 'The New Sulu', he became a rip-off. They attached Sulu's character to Kim's - the same way they attached McCoy's to Pulaski and Spock to Data's. The difference is that those two were actually developed. The writers' had such contradictory ideas of Kim that whenever he did get development it didn't fit his character from previous episodes.
To be fair, it was only one article that I saw where Harry was advertised as the "new Sulu". But also to be fair, that was the one article I saw about him.
Well, it's Voyager, a show that dumped the Vidiians off as a one-note villain to focus more on the galactic Three Million Stooges--I mean, the Kazon. What do you seriously expect?
And speaking of the Kazon...this is a species that successfully killed themselves BY ACCIDENT with a REPLICATOR. Forget being a serious threat, that's dumber than the stereotypical cavemen on that planet from Basics.
Anyway...Voyager focused on flashy action over actual thought, which as we both know is a problem in the Trek fandom, where most people are intelligent enough to see through BS.
Just like the Token Black Guy on ENT...or Scotty becoming ChENG in the JJVerse by sheer proximity to a uniform...or Nero sitting on his butt and doing jack sh*t for twenty-five ******n years...
Actually, basically everything since DS9 ended has been one long downhill slide of actionification. At least VOY had the holodoc and ENT had Shran...
I liked Mayweather...
He got more development than... oh, I don't know, just about every TOS character save the three musketeers. Though, that's more a product of the time than an actual writing problem.
As for Nero, that is actually explained in the comics and deleted scenes. The Klingons imprisoned Nero and his crew in that time.
Of course, it fails to point out how the bloody hell they managed to subdue the Narada in the first place!
He got more development than... oh, I don't know, just about every TOS character save the three musketeers. Though, that's more a product of the time than an actual writing problem.
That's true...still, Mayweather was the obvious Token Black, to the point that I can't even remember his name.
Then again, I only remember T'pol for being the token alien and Spock ripoff, Archer for being an oaf, Sato for...something, might've been speaking tlhIngan Hol in the pilot, and Shran for being awesome.
Um... wasn't this thread supposed to be about Janeway?
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,143Community Moderator
edited January 2015
The Narada was already damaged by the Kelvin's kamikaze attack in the opening of Star Trek. Yes the Narada posessed superior 24th Century tech, and maybe even some Borg tech, but she still got rammed by a decent sized hunk of metal with a warp core.
I liked Mayweather and Hoshi.
Mayweather being a boomer was something different. Color had nothing to do with it. And Hoshi struggling with Klingon showed that they still had things to learn, as it was a prequel and they had yet to develop the tech we already are familiar with.
Star Trek has always been diverse. That diversity was clearly shown in TOS, was shown a bit again in DS9, clearly shown in Voyager, and was clearly shown again in Enterprise. TNG wasn't quite as diverse, but had tis own advantages.
As for Nero, that is actually explained in the comics and deleted scenes. The Klingons imprisoned Nero and his crew in that time.
Of course, it fails to point out how the bloody hell they managed to subdue the Narada in the first place!
Apparently the Klingons were able to take down the Narada because George Kirk did more damage to it than anyone expected. Running a massive matter/antimatter-powered object into something will do that. It's only because Star Trek consistently underestimates how destructive ramming attacks are in space that the Narada survived at all.
But, as Chuck Sonnenburg put it when he reviewed the movie, you don't get credit for what got left on the cutting room floor.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's true...still, Mayweather was the obvious Token Black, to the point that I can't even remember his name.
Then again, I only remember T'pol for being the token alien and Spock ripoff, Archer for being an oaf, Sato for...something, might've been speaking tlhIngan Hol in the pilot, and Shran for being awesome.
Yeah, it raises its own problems...and as MDK says, it's a damn lazy excuse for an obvious writing error.
I'd've even found the concept of them spending the intervening time in the Romulan Battle Trance, simply Waiting for the prey to emerge, better than JJ's "Oh, I filmed the scenes, I just cut them out and never showed them (unless you buy all the DVD's and read the comics)" IMHO, deleted scenes're lower than novels in terms of canon, simply because they're mostly never seen...
Comments
Also, I would add that in the early show the Starfleet side of the crew didn't trust Chakotay because he was Maquis. And you say that I oversimplify things....
My character Tsin'xing
Sometimes he does fill the role of XO but sometimes he's underutilized.
what debate? She was able to stick to her principles, I guess.
Not a misunderstanding on the Federation's side. No, but on the Undine's side.
Yes, that's why I said he got more loyalty after Equinox.
How am I oversimplifying? I am simply stating the objective facts, that the Undine species is a collection of individuals, whereas the Borg entity is one individual with trillions of bodies.
You're deliberately misinterpreting everything I say so that your precious Captain Perfect can fly off in her Sue-powered ship and use bioweapons without consequences, then act sanctimonious about it. Please look at yourself in a mirror, and stop.
*Picard Facepalm.*
Wow. Worffan... this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you post. I mean... really? You're smarter than this.
If it's his opinion, it can't be incorrect, because it's an opinion. By saying that, it comes across as if you're holding your opinion as being fact and his opinion as being absolutely and utterly wrong. It makes you look like a troll.
Seriously, re-read what you said and tell me you don't see where I'm coming from.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1107951
The Internet is forever, Ba'alfan.
Opinions CAN be incorrect.
Take Ken Ham. He thinks that Earth was created 6 thousand or so years ago by a magic sky man. This is manifestly incorrect.
There's a guy on the internet called Bill Crofut who thinks that the sun goes around the Earth. This also is observably untrue.
I am of the opinion that "they" or "their" should not be used to refer to one person except in certain cases of unusual gender identity. The Merriam-Webster dictionary, however, says that I'm wrong; and if I were to walk into a bunch of English specialists and rant about this subject, I'd be laughed out of the room for being a moron.
Opinions can be untrue. I've used some pretty extreme examples, but my point is valid; just because something is your opinion doesn't protect it from being blatantly untrue.
Markhawkman thinks that that lone Undine soldier, which almost certainly had never encountered non-Borg humanoids before, knew exactly what Harry Kim was when it attacked and somehow expressed active malice with a clear warning shot. This is patently ridiculous, especially given the Starfish Aliens nature of the Undine, and is hence almost certainly incorrect. And since the writers appear to have never thought of the implications of that scene (because as has been previously established they were morons), we have no Word of God on this, either.
Just as Neelix was a bad attempt to rip off Quark and Odo, and the Kazon were bad attempts to rip off the Klingons, Harry Kim was clearly an attempt to rip off Sulu; cast a decent-looking non-Caucasian guy in a minor role, and watch the numbers trickle in. Of course, they neglected to give him any character development whatsoever, so they kind of failed (just as they did with neelix and the Kazon).
Take your arrogance and crippling lack of self-confidence elsewhere, please.
Exhibit B. Because a character is Asian, according to Ba'alfan, he's a "ripoff" of an older Asian character, even if no character traits were shared between the two.
Stay "classy" Ba'alfan.
Name 1 other Asian main from TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY.
I dare you.
Name one other main with a vaguely-defined role who always seemed to be doing whatever needed a warm body.
I dare you.
Name one other main who was advertised at one point as the "new Sulu".
Because he's in a similar role, has a similar appearance, and was at one point advertised as the "new Sulu", I'd say he was an attempt to rip off Sulu's success.
More importantly, though, like everything else on Voyager except the holodoc he got no development to speak of.
You're really reaching here, and it's boring.
In fairness to him, the Undine was telepathic, and was using that telepathy to track Kim. Borg don't have emotions, but Kim did. Now, I don't agree with the perception that the Undine was in any position to actually identify Kim, and consider the whole incident to be 'Prometheus Incident'-like (B5 Reference).
But there is one obvious thing you've missed; a race of high-level telepaths such as the Undine would very likely be similar in one respect - they'd share thoughts between each other. This is vaguely alluded to in the Terradome episode. Such a society would be very consensual - that is, they'd agree on most matters.
Going back to the B5 reference I made earlier, consider the emotions going through the Undine Species at the time; they'd been attacked by these bipedal creatures from an alien dimension, who killed their people. They went into a blood rage - as the Minbari did after their leader was killed in B5.
There was no way they were going to stop with the Borg - all life in our galaxy was a threat from their perspective. This can be seen with Voyager's attempt to contact the Undine vessel - a war cry, despite the fact that that Undine had the opportunity right there to realise that Voyager had no idea what happened. The Undine were attacked and responded the only way they could - kill everything that is a threat.
That does not mean I approve of Janeway's response, just that I personally do not see the Undine stopping with the Borg.
"It's a holy war, Delenn!"
B5 and Star Trek have many similarities; races going on a genocidal rampage over a misunderstanding is one of them. And like the Minbari, that does not make the Undine the villains. Something the writers totally failed to realise.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
You're the one reaching. As pointed out in that other thread, Kim had nothing in common with Sulu... not even their role. Sulu drove the Enterprise as its helmsman and was a lieutenant. Meanwhile, Kim was in operations and was a lowly ensign... and the differences only got bigger from there.
But go ahead, keep trying to justify your bigotry... it's entertaining.
Oh, give me a break! That's like saying Data wasn't a ripoff (I prefer 'homage') of Spock, despite the fact that they filled the same role, in many cases had similar stories, and using your only justification as 'but Data wanted to be human, while Spock tried to hide his human side!'
Another example Pulaski. She was even stated to be a homage to McCoy by the writers! Yet, she was female, so clearly she can't be a homage to McCoy, right? /sarcasm
A character doesn't have to fully replicate another character to be ripping them off or paying homage!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
But yeah, Prometheus incident. Agree on the thought-sharing, but disagree on consensus. Hell, look at Betazoids...did Troi and her mom EVER get along, despite Troi being raised on Betazed? H'mmmmm...I think that you're misjudging things slightly here.
Facts:
1. The Borg attacked Undine space.
2. The Undine's dominant culture is racist and xenophobic.
3. The Undine are still individuals.
I'd compare the Undine to America during the Cold War period, without a pseudo-strong Soviet Union to actually hold us back. Not the Minbari, but a mixed society led by a majority of racist, xenophobic bigots.
This is a society whose leaders use hate and fear of others as a weapon. There are still people in that society, however, who don't really see the point of beating the tar out of little guys in other places.
I'm saying that while the Undine are majorly upset and on the warpath (pardon the phrasing), they are still a society of individuals, and hence susceptible to diplomacy.
Hell, that Undine soldier pretty clearly realized that it f*cked up after Harry et al's reaction differed from the Standard Borg Tactics. It shot an obvious warning shot off of Voyager's bow and left.
That could be true, or it could be that the Undine was still running on adrenaline (the Undine equivalent, at least) and simply missed and ran out of fear? It had be cornered by the Borg and suddenly came across a new threat which had his ship at its mercy (not at the time realising Voyager had no chance of destroying his ship). I would run. The Undine, as you point out, are not above fear. Even though they're superior, they aren't Vulcan.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
That is possible, too; however, Undine soldiers have shown a lot of arrogance with regard to new threats, so I find it more likely that xe was simply confused and (like any rational creature that finds itself confused and in a hostile environment) decided to split before something bad happened.
Same concept, different method of application, basically.
The sun goes around the earth opinion is completely and utterly wrong since there is a large amount of evidence to support the earth going around the sun.
Actually, those comparisons are a lot closer than a Sulu/Kim comparison will ever be. And they were pretty blatant with Pulaski who pretty much copied McCoy's personality nuance by nuance, right down to the irrational fear of transporters. They didn't even try making her her own character.
But I fail to see how simply being Asian makes someone a ripoff of someone else when I have already pointed out that the two characters had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common beyond race. You're simply trying to justify bigotry.
Exactly.
Of course, it's open to interpretation because, as was common on Voyager, the writers didn't bother to give any development to 8472 beyond 'they're the bad guys'. We have no idea what the Undine were thinking at the time, let alone that lone soldier, because the writers couldn't even dare to take the focus off "our heroes".
Scorpion, despite being one of the best-made episodes of Voyager, also happens to be one of the worst-written, in my opinion. They gave us this big new villain and then didn't even bother to explain how they worked. With the Borg, we at least knew from the get-go that they were a Collective Consciousness (I don't consider the Queen to have existed until they dumped Hugh in the Collective, as that's the only reason a Queen would have made sense to the Borg). With the Undine? 'They bad. Go kill'.
Sigh...
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Okay, get your facts straight before accusing me of racism. At no point there did I say 'Kim is a rip-off of Sulu because he's Asian'. In fact, I agree with you in that I think there aren't enough similarities to call him a 'rip-off'. However, when he is advertised as a ripoff (literally 'the new Sulu') then that is effectively sanctioned as the Producers' intent. In other words, from the moment Paramount started advertising him as 'The New Sulu', he became a rip-off. They attached Sulu's character to Kim's - the same way they attached McCoy's to Pulaski and Spock to Data's. The difference is that those two were actually developed. The writers' had such contradictory ideas of Kim that whenever he did get development it didn't fit his character from previous episodes.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Well, it's Voyager, a show that dumped the Vidiians off as a one-note villain to focus more on the galactic Three Million Stooges--I mean, the Kazon. What do you seriously expect?
And speaking of the Kazon...this is a species that successfully killed themselves BY ACCIDENT with a REPLICATOR. Forget being a serious threat, that's dumber than the stereotypical cavemen on that planet from Basics.
Anyway...Voyager focused on flashy action over actual thought, which as we both know is a problem in the Trek fandom, where most people are intelligent enough to see through BS.
Just like the Token Black Guy on ENT...or Scotty becoming ChENG in the JJVerse by sheer proximity to a uniform...or Nero sitting on his butt and doing jack sh*t for twenty-five ******n years...
Actually, basically everything since DS9 ended has been one long downhill slide of actionification. At least VOY had the holodoc and ENT had Shran...
To be fair, it was only one article that I saw where Harry was advertised as the "new Sulu". But also to be fair, that was the one article I saw about him.
They really didn't do much with poor Harry...
I liked Mayweather...
He got more development than... oh, I don't know, just about every TOS character save the three musketeers. Though, that's more a product of the time than an actual writing problem.
As for Nero, that is actually explained in the comics and deleted scenes. The Klingons imprisoned Nero and his crew in that time.
Of course, it fails to point out how the bloody hell they managed to subdue the Narada in the first place!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Then again, I only remember T'pol for being the token alien and Spock ripoff, Archer for being an oaf, Sato for...something, might've been speaking tlhIngan Hol in the pilot, and Shran for being awesome.
Yeah, it raises its own problems...and as MDK says, it's a damn lazy excuse for an obvious writing error.
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
I liked Mayweather and Hoshi.
Mayweather being a boomer was something different. Color had nothing to do with it. And Hoshi struggling with Klingon showed that they still had things to learn, as it was a prequel and they had yet to develop the tech we already are familiar with.
Star Trek has always been diverse. That diversity was clearly shown in TOS, was shown a bit again in DS9, clearly shown in Voyager, and was clearly shown again in Enterprise. TNG wasn't quite as diverse, but had tis own advantages.
Anyways... isn't this getting a bit off topic?
Apparently the Klingons were able to take down the Narada because George Kirk did more damage to it than anyone expected. Running a massive matter/antimatter-powered object into something will do that. It's only because Star Trek consistently underestimates how destructive ramming attacks are in space that the Narada survived at all.
But, as Chuck Sonnenburg put it when he reviewed the movie, you don't get credit for what got left on the cutting room floor.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hell. Yes :mad:
I'd've even found the concept of them spending the intervening time in the Romulan Battle Trance, simply Waiting for the prey to emerge, better than JJ's "Oh, I filmed the scenes, I just cut them out and never showed them (unless you buy all the DVD's and read the comics)" IMHO, deleted scenes're lower than novels in terms of canon, simply because they're mostly never seen...