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Changes to Mark 13 and Mark 14 space weapons
crypticgeko
Member Posts: 87
There seem to be some questions as to why we changed the damage on Mark 13 and Mark 14 space weapons. So I wanted to explain the history and talk a little math.
As we were planning Mark 13 and Mark 14 item, we wanted them to be significantly better than Mark 12. All items generally increase at a lineal pace at about +10% improvement per Mark. We wanted the difference between Mark 12 and Mark 13 items to be more than that, and the difference between Mark 13 and Mark 14 to be even greater still. In general, we wanted Mark 14 items to be about +30% better than Mark 12 items. You can see this reflected in the HP of T5U and T6 ships.
So, technically, this was implemented correctly. If you just consider the weapon alone, a Mark 12 weapon that does 222 damage will do about 282 damage as Mark 14, which is around +27% slightly under target, but within the range of what we were shooting for. However, this is only true if you have no weapon skills, and no items (like consoles) that increase you weapon damage. If you have both Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 321 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 381 damage, which is only around +19%. And if you add 4 weapon consoles, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 441 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 501 damage, which is only around +14%. Basically, the diminishing returns system will reduce the bonus you get out of Mark 14 weapons, even though the weapons themselves are actually on target.
We feel most players have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, and a lot of players have at least some item that makes their weapons better. So we wanted to make Mark 13 and 14 items have a more noticeable increase in damage that was in line with the increase in HP of critter and player ships. The new increase in damage will do the following:
The last 3 scenarios average to about +30% increase in damage, which was the original target. If you have absolutely no skill or consoles, you get a much bigger boost, but this is unlikely, and you will probably need that boost anyway.
What about other items like shields, engines, etc?
Well, those items are not as aggressively effected by the same diminishing returns math that weapons are, so they really dont need to be increased? They are working as expected.
What about ground weapons?
We considered ground weapons, but ground weapons arent affect by items like consoles, and are affected by skill far less than space items. They are performing much closer to what would be expected.
What about PvP?
This change will have a larger effect in PvP that is, you PvP foes with Mark 14 weapons will kill you faster. This is true, but should still be more in line with PvP pre-Delta Rising, assuming a ship with Mark 14 gear is fighting a T5U or T6 ship. The bonus in HP vs Damage should now go up at comparable rates.
As always, no number are final. We will continue to monitor the data and feedback and tune as necessary. But hopefully, everyone will be excited that they will be blowing up bad guys a Iittle faster now.
LLAP
As we were planning Mark 13 and Mark 14 item, we wanted them to be significantly better than Mark 12. All items generally increase at a lineal pace at about +10% improvement per Mark. We wanted the difference between Mark 12 and Mark 13 items to be more than that, and the difference between Mark 13 and Mark 14 to be even greater still. In general, we wanted Mark 14 items to be about +30% better than Mark 12 items. You can see this reflected in the HP of T5U and T6 ships.
So, technically, this was implemented correctly. If you just consider the weapon alone, a Mark 12 weapon that does 222 damage will do about 282 damage as Mark 14, which is around +27% slightly under target, but within the range of what we were shooting for. However, this is only true if you have no weapon skills, and no items (like consoles) that increase you weapon damage. If you have both Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 321 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 381 damage, which is only around +19%. And if you add 4 weapon consoles, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 441 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 501 damage, which is only around +14%. Basically, the diminishing returns system will reduce the bonus you get out of Mark 14 weapons, even though the weapons themselves are actually on target.
We feel most players have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, and a lot of players have at least some item that makes their weapons better. So we wanted to make Mark 13 and 14 items have a more noticeable increase in damage that was in line with the increase in HP of critter and player ships. The new increase in damage will do the following:
- If you have no skill and no energy weapon consoles: +50% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
- If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill but no energy weapon consoles: +34% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
- If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and two (2) energy weapon consoles: +29% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
- If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and four (4) energy weapon consoles: +25% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
The last 3 scenarios average to about +30% increase in damage, which was the original target. If you have absolutely no skill or consoles, you get a much bigger boost, but this is unlikely, and you will probably need that boost anyway.
What about other items like shields, engines, etc?
Well, those items are not as aggressively effected by the same diminishing returns math that weapons are, so they really dont need to be increased? They are working as expected.
What about ground weapons?
We considered ground weapons, but ground weapons arent affect by items like consoles, and are affected by skill far less than space items. They are performing much closer to what would be expected.
What about PvP?
This change will have a larger effect in PvP that is, you PvP foes with Mark 14 weapons will kill you faster. This is true, but should still be more in line with PvP pre-Delta Rising, assuming a ship with Mark 14 gear is fighting a T5U or T6 ship. The bonus in HP vs Damage should now go up at comparable rates.
As always, no number are final. We will continue to monitor the data and feedback and tune as necessary. But hopefully, everyone will be excited that they will be blowing up bad guys a Iittle faster now.
LLAP
Post edited by Unknown User on
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I do wonder about torpedos though
Now if only you and the rest of the team would unnerf torpedoes, or at least tone down some of the Kinetic resists so that Torpedoes that aren't rep torps are actually more useful.
im sorta shocked pvp's existence was acknowledged. it's in dire need of system team attention.
if buffs to damage weren't done in 2 very different ways, adjustments like this would not be necessary, and a lot of player confusion would be gone. like how the skill tree and consoles each individually buff based on the base damage, and add all those bonuses together, wile other items and especially abilities take your final damage and multiply it a certain percent. would be nice if everything acted one way or the other instead, at least across the board on items and set bonuses especially.
As for non-weapons items, particularly items like eng and sci consoles, and especially warp cores, I am not sure I see the "value proposition" to upgrading them.
Is it intended, for example, that a normal (non-set) warp core not get any new mod when upgraded from VR to UR? Just a tiny increase to one stat?
Are vulnerability locator consoles considered an energy weapons console?
I'd have much rather preferred that the PRICE of upgrading to Mk14 was lowered instead of making players feeling forced to spend gobs of Dilithium to stay competitive. Obviously the current price wasn't worth the increase in damage to most players who would see a Mk 14 and go "Eh, I'll just stick w/ my Mk 12s". Just more Star Grind Online.
Hrmm, I guess it gets into where you were looking at that ~30%. So if we look at the example you gave there at the bottom (of what I snipped), then we'd be looking at the following, eh?
Common Mk XII Beam Array @50 Weapon Power without any additional strength/bonus boosts (no skills, consoles, gear, abilities, traits, rarity, anything) - just the Mark of the weapon.
So with the base damage of a Beam Array being ~100 and the Mark of the weapon giving a (X * ~10%), we'd have 100 + (12 * 10) = 220, but it's 222. Are we still getting that 1.9% from being at 50 or was that perhaps an Accolade that took it to 222? Meh, doesn't matter.
So anyway, that's how we got there.
Mk XIV is taking us to 282, which is +60 damage...which since our base damage is 100, is a +60% strength boost (akin to having two +30 VR Consoles).
You mentioned here that you guys wanted Mk XII to Mk XIII to be better than Mk XI to Mk XII, and for Mk XIII to Mk XIV to be better than Mk XII to Mk XIII. It was in a previous podcast, I believe, where you'd mentioned a doubling from 12 to 13 of what 11 to 12 was and then the same for 13 to 14 of what 12 to 13 had been...is that what's at play here?
Mk 0 -> Mk XII, +10% strength per Mark
Mk XIII, +20% strength
Mk XIV, +40% strength
So at Mk XIV, we'd have had that doubling 10 to 20 and 20 to 40 to get to the +60% we saw going from 222 to 282 with a 100 base damage weapon?
And I have some more!
I don't let other forumites get away with it, and you're no exception, Mr. Rivera. I understand making decisions based on gut feelings are sometimes the correct choice of action. But I think I would be more at ease if fuzzy math and ballpark estimates were used in place of vague terms.
This all looks good to me.
If you could change that probably into a definitely, you'd have me sold on your pitch. Otherwise, why am I putting skill points into Energy Weapons when they could be put elsewhere? Or putting an arsenal of universal consoles in my tactical slots?
A jump of ~25% is pretty signifigant, but when it comes to practical application and gameplay, would people really be that gimped using Mk XIV weapons if they made up for skill points/consoles elsewhere?
What about hybrid energy weapon consoles? Are they factored into the math? Like the Species 8472 Tactical Console, or energy weapon bonuses offered by the 8472 Reputation set that buffs phaser/disruptor damage? Or any of the other set bonuses that buff particular energy damage?
If they are, would they actually drive the final bonus down even further?
Another seemingly irrelevant bit of feedback from my perspective, then.
It costs more time/resources/dilithium to acquire a Mk XIV weapon than it does Mk XII weapons, and personally I think the buff should actually surpass your linear climb simply because the gap from XII to XIV is wide enough that the effort to get to that point should result in a more worthwhile improvement.
Just my opinion, though.
It's not real diminishing returns, so to speak. Heh, it's one of my favorite troll discussions out there, cause it's so easy to play off both sides against one another - but the mods hate when you do that. :P
Consider the following...
1
1 + 1 = 2
You see a 100% increase.
2
2 + 1 = 3
You see a 50% increase.
3
3 + 1 = 4
You see a 25% increase.
Each time you added the same amount. You're not getting diminished returns from the 1, you're getting the full 1 each time you add the 1. You are, however, seeing a decrease in the incremental returns as far as how it affected your overall amount.
Geko's diminishing returns are the overall effect that it has on your damage...it will diminish in that sense, although no individual amounts have actually diminished.
In the end, if it is the +60% strength as suggested by what Geko said and I pointed out in my previous post, then this boost would mean...
Mk XIV = Mk XII [Dmg]x12
Mk XIV = Mk XII w/ 2x VR Tac Consoles (+30 each)
...for a comparison.
Yeah, I had to re-read his post and I had to edit my own. Personally, I am fine with diminishing returns as a game mechanic. It is simply a necessary evil.
I think your math explains things a little bit better. I was not considering over all damage, but it is also late and it's clear I was not thinking as deeply as I probably should have regarding the new changes.
I am in favor of a damage buff, however. So I am pleased regardless. It's just the little intricacies that seep into min-max territory that have me curious. As if maybe something might have been missed or not considered since it only takes a few clever individuals to flip the math table upside down by going outside-the-box to ruin it for the rest of us.
What I'd like to know is if the damage difference between Mk IV very rare, ultra rare and epic quality weapons will also be larger.
Very Rare Purple
Mark 12
Very Rare Purple
Mark 13
Rare Blue to Very Rare Purple (Ultra Rare is Gold)
Mark 14
Rare Blue to Very Rare Purple (Ultra Rare is Gold)
What I am reading and seeing doesn't add-up right. I guess you don't want us to use console boost, DOF Rare Blue to Very Rare Purple to Manage Projectiles and Energy Weapons to boost them along with the space traits boost at 40%. I also guess you can't even think of having all these boost along with Mark 13 and Mark 14 to take advantage of their correct DPS boost.
Now with the long implementation of the explanation of what you could see is less than what you would expect it to be. Seems to less to me. :rolleyes:
Time will only tell!
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What I am seeing the enemies weapons are set to the max code for beams, cannons, (torpedo (60% high yield)) in DR and thus we have to battle it out with all our boost in place. But again not all enemies are programmed with very heavy weapons DPS (damage per second).
Delta Rising enemies are much stronger than Dyson Voth and 8472 enemies but at times Voth is stronger at the sphere. I guess they really need to revamp the DPS on these enemies otherwise you be battling it out longer if your ship is not up to speed.
Time will only tell!
Free Tibet!
pvp?! what's that? however, it will die faster now lol
It is because of this $%^&*ing stupid Pay-to-Win grind fest I no longer support this game.
You ******* already KILLED PvP. So no point in making gaddamn super weapons. TRIBBLE :mad::mad::mad:
Do you even try not to #$%@-up?
Your game design blows chunks. WAKE-UP and look around you are what your $#^@ing customer metrics are showing you about your clueless approach to cheese design.
Ultra Rare is the gradient blue-purple lettering. Epic is gold.
However meh... what ever. Thanks for reinforcing my decision to stop patching STO. Might have to clear the data on my annual clean the drives night, its coming soon.
Green Uncommon
Blue Rare
Purple Very Rare
As for Gold I haven't seen in weapons I see some have DOF that are Gold
I have Mark 14 Ultra Rare Green on some toons.
Anyway some Mark 11 very rare purple still have some good DPS. I really not seeing how effective Mark 13 and 14 are. Seems no better than Mark 12. Just maybe when they get up to Mark 24 if we get that high to see DPS really high.
In DR one of the missions where you fly the VA ship. Those weapons don't even say what they're are. oo weapons DPS on those are very high even with the two Mark 13 High Yield for Torpedo making them 60% damage. I can't even come close to those weapons only in a battle when the DPS climbs upward. Whoever designed and plan all of this needs to come forth and say to the players this is how it is and why?
Otherwise we're all second guessing.
Time will only tell!
This. I'd rather see the cost of Upgrading (specifically the dilithium) lowered than to add more damage to Mk XIII and Mk XIV. Put another way, making the carrot bigger doesn't help when the stick keeps it out of reach for many players anyway.
I don't know if it would be possible but I could actually see an argument that perhaps range scaling should only apply to BASE damage and not to bonus damage.
Bonus damage is largely there to narrow gaps between skill and gear whereas range is a function of skill.
Range scaling causes the Dmg mod to scale very differently on different types of gear.
Actually, there are a lot of scaling issues with the bonus damage assigned by both Dmg mods and things like increased item quality, both for and against different types of players.
I realize this is opening a can of worms but I'm thinking here what would be the net effect IF damage increases assigned by mods and item quality (ie. passive damage quality improvements brought on by Dmg mods and green/blue/purple/orange quality):
- Did NOT scale with range, better or worse (thus benefiting weaker players)
- Did NOT scale with special abilities (I'm going somewhere with this as a TOTAL makeover)
- Did NOT scale with energy type consoles (ie. the bonus damage assigned from item quality and mods didn't have a "type")
- DID scale with weapon type consoles
- Was NOT subject to reduction by any specific kind of resistances
- Had HIGHER stat values (which eliminating the scaling would allow for)
- Did NOT benefit from shield pen
Base damage would be parsed as it currently is. Bonus damage from Dmg mods would be parsed as I've outlined above.
And a change to transphasics and shield pen attacks. Where 100% of BONUS damage (ie. dumb damage) bled through shields.
Meanwhile, anti-faction mods like Sonic, Borg, etc. would be changed to provide substantial (and higher than present) boosts to BONUS damage applied by attacks but would not affect base damage.
By effectively making bonus its own type and giving it its own things it scales with, you create a lot of interesting design changes that balance gear/skill, address issues with game scaling that buff the average or below average player, make some currently undesirable consoles (generic weapon boosters like cannon or beam consoles) and the less desirable Dmg mod more desirable by applying a major boost to bonus damage, which would have independent scaling from base damage.
For Energy Weapons, it's 64k TP to go from VR12 to VR13 and 128k to go from VR13 to VR14. That's uh...not that expensive. Are you guys calculating in the overall cost say to take something from VR12 to G14? Cause this is just about things at Mk XIV, regardless of the rarity of the item. Yeah, doing the gambling thing - fingers crossed - trying to get to G14 is a heinous cost...but just VR14 isn't much.
Now...Torp prices to upgrade...wtf's going on there, eh? 85-106k VR12 to VR13 compared to the 64k of the Energy Weapon...and then going VR13 to VR14 at twice that? /facepalm
One needs to read between the lines here....
"Because we give a #$%^ about PvP"