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Changes to Mark 13 and Mark 14 space weapons

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  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    For Energy Weapons, it's 64k TP to go from VR12 to VR13 and 128k to go from VR13 to VR14. That's uh...not that expensive. Are you guys calculating in the overall cost say to take something from VR12 to G14? Cause this is just about things at Mk XIV, regardless of the rarity of the item. Yeah, doing the gambling thing - fingers crossed - trying to get to G14 is a heinous cost...but just VR14 isn't much.

    Now...Torp prices to upgrade...wtf's going on there, eh? 85-106k VR12 to VR13 compared to the 64k of the Energy Weapon...and then going VR13 to VR14 at twice that? /facepalm

    128000 per weapon/item
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I don't know if it would be possible but I could actually see an argument that perhaps range scaling should only apply to BASE damage and not to bonus damage.

    Bonus damage is largely there to narrow gaps between skill and gear whereas range is a function of skill.

    Range scaling causes the Dmg mod to scale very differently on different types of gear.

    Actually, there are a lot of scaling issues with the bonus damage assigned by both Dmg mods and things like increased item quality, both for and against different types of players.

    I realize this is opening a can of worms but I'm thinking here what would be the net effect IF damage increases assigned by mods and item quality (ie. passive damage quality improvements brought on by Dmg mods and green/blue/purple/orange quality):

    - Did NOT scale with range, better or worse (thus benefiting weaker players)
    - Did NOT scale with special abilities (I'm going somewhere with this as a TOTAL makeover)
    - Did NOT scale with energy type consoles (ie. the bonus damage assigned from item quality and mods didn't have a "type")
    - DID scale with weapon type consoles
    - Was NOT subject to reduction by any specific kind of resistances
    - Had HIGHER stat values (which eliminating the scaling would allow for)
    - Did NOT benefit from shield pen

    Base damage would be parsed as it currently is. Bonus damage from Dmg mods would be parsed as I've outlined above.

    And a change to transphasics and shield pen attacks. Where 100% of BONUS damage (ie. dumb damage) bled through shields.

    Meanwhile, anti-faction mods like Sonic, Borg, etc. would be changed to provide substantial (and higher than present) boosts to BONUS damage applied by attacks but would not affect base damage.

    By effectively making bonus its own type and giving it its own things it scales with, you create a lot of interesting design changes that balance gear/skill, address issues with game scaling that buff the average or below average player, make some currently undesirable consoles (generic weapon boosters like cannon or beam consoles) and the less desirable Dmg mod more desirable by applying a major boost to bonus damage, which would have independent scaling from base damage.

    I'm trying to picture where you're taking...

    Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + WeaponEnhancementBoost) * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost) * (1 - RangePenalty) * (1 - DamageResistance)
  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited December 2014
    • If you have no skill and no energy weapon consoles: +50% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill but no energy weapon consoles: +34% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and two (2) energy weapon consoles: +29% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and four (4) energy weapon consoles: +25% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14

    The last 3 scenarios average to about +30% increase in damage, which was the original target. If you have absolutely no skill or consoles, you get a much bigger boost, but this is unlikely, and you will probably need that boost anyway.

    I think it is a big mistake for PVP and almost everything (except turrets and a couple consoles) on my ship is already upgraded to mk xiv now.

    Unfortunately my main is a tac and I do slot tactical consoles and on the other hand most sci char don't slot tac console at all so they will receive a free +50 increase above the +100 prtg so after they will TBR to death if they fail they will finish you with FAW now

    Goodby tac welcome OP sci ............
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    128000 per weapon/item
  • snowpig74snowpig74 Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    you did not add the dil-costs for crafting the upgrade kits.
  • jackal1701apwjackal1701apw Member Posts: 669 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    snowpig74 wrote: »
    you did not add the dil-costs for crafting the upgrade kits.

    There isn't one.

    Unless you are mistakenly hitting Finish Now. Which is easy to do.


    This feels like bait and switch to me. This increase will not last. They just want more players to burn purple to upgrade moar gear, and then they will switch it back.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    ...#LLAP...
  • edited December 2014
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  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I'm trying to picture where you're taking...

    Base * (1 + WeaponPowerBoost) * (1 + WeaponEnhancementBoost) * (1 + SumAllStrengthBoost) * (1 + SumAllBonusBoost) * (1 - RangePenalty) * (1 - DamageResistance)

    Basically, split weapon damage out into two types.

    Antiproton/Disruptor/Phaser/etc.

    AND

    Bonus

    A portion of the damage on all weapons would be of the Bonus type including Dmg mods and damage increases associated with color quality.

    They would scale separately but would both get buffed because of the reduction of scaling potential, making for higher basic damage in good gear but less high end potential. Bonus would not scale with range or be subject to resistances (nor would it interface with most BO abilities) making it better for less skilled players.
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Do you folks even bother looking at things before commenting? I mean, seriously...
    snowpig74 wrote: »
    you did not add the dil-costs for crafting the upgrade kits.

    I think you just got your answer.
  • willamsheridanwillamsheridan Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The 128k TP is for taking a VR Mk XIII weapon to VR Mk XIV.

    Consoles, Deflectors/Engines, etc all have different prices.

    And that's TP...not Dil. Technology Points.

    Taking a UR Exploiter Mk XII to Mk XIII is 23400 TP. That's around 2k Dil.

    128k TP would be 10x Superior...without any crits. Without using any TP boosts, you'd be looking at 10,750 Dil for that upgrade (1075 Dil per).

    Do you folks even bother looking at things before commenting? I mean, seriously...

    Iesus, i simply overlooked it. Can happen. But still 2k? using what to upgrade them?

    And also its not only the Dil but also the EC. to get the R&D resources you need for some things you have to play mayn SFTs to get them (but some only drop from Elites) or you have to pay a lot of EC for them on the Exchange.
    And i don´t have so many EC and don´t want to spend all my time playing "Assmilation" to sell the rare rewards
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    snowpig74 wrote: »
    you did not add the dil-costs for crafting the upgrade kits.

    There are no Dil costs for the upgrade kits.

    Superior Beam: 1x Radiogenic Particle, 1x Firing Sequencer, 1x Power Surge Regulator, 15k EC
    Superior Cannon: 1x Craylon Gas, 1x Firing Sequencer, 1x Plasma Compressor, 15k EC
    Superior Engineering: 1x Trellium-K, 1x Rerouting Lattice, 1x Ejection System, 15k EC
    Superior Ground: 1x Plekton, 1x Micro Power Cell, 1x Handheld Calibration Control, 15k EC
    Superior Projectiles: 1x Argonite Gas, 1x Pressurization Chamber, 1x Ejection System, 15k EC
    Superior Science: 1x Dentarium, 1x Pressurization Chamber, 1x Quantum Field Focus, 15k EC
    Superior Shields: 1x Argonite Gas, 1x Rerouting Lattice, 1x Plasma Compressor, 15k EC

    And the following are the current prices on the Exchange for the STUs.

    Superior Beam are 295k EC.
    Superior Cannon are 279k EC.
    Superior Engineering are 240k EC.
    Superior Ground are 350k EC.
    Superior Projectile are 686k EC.
    Superior Science are 275k EC.
    Superior Shield are 562k EC.

    How about the two highest priced STUs there?

    Projectile: 686k EC

    Components: 1x Argonite Gas, 1x Pressurization Chamber, 1x Ejection System, 15k EC
    1x Argonite - 485k
    1x Pressurization Chamber - 68k
    1x Ejection System - 100k
    +15k EC = 668k

    Shields: 562k EC

    Components: 1x Argonite Gas, 1x Rerouting Lattice, 1x Plasma Compressor, 15k EC
    1x Argonite - 485k
    1x Rerouting Lattice - 78k
    1x Plasma Compressor - 135k
    +15k EC = 713k

    What about say crafting all the components instead of buying them and crafting the STUs?

    Pressurization Chamber (2x Tetrazine Gas & 1x Z-Particle): 57k instead of 68k
    Ejection System (2x Rubidium & 3x Beta-Tachyon Particle): 142k instead of 100k
    Rerouting Lattice (2x Tetrazine Gas & 1x Z-Particle): 57k instead of 78k
    Plasma Compressor (3x Z-Particle & 2x Beta-Tachyon Particle): 151k instead of 135k

    Yes, folks are underpricing things and overpricing things...lol...there's more PvP on the Exchange than anywhere else! :P

    It's a trip looking at the Pressurization Chamber and the Rerouting Lattice - both have the same material requirements, but one is selling for 68k and the other 78k when it would only be 57k to buy them and craft them yourself.

    And...things are going to take a dive on the market too as folks gamble for the Sheshar and buy the R&D packs...offloading the stuff they get from them on the Exchange driving prices down.

    But again, and let me make this extremely clear...in my talking about the overall cost being relatively cheap to Mk XIV stuff - that's just to Mk XIV. Trying to UR and Gold it...that gets damn expensive for certain things if you get to Mk XIV first.

    Cause you've got to fill that Mk XIV bar for a chance at moving up in Rarity. Some folks haven't flipped until they've hit 30-40% or more on it...and if that's just the flip for UR and then they've got the Gold ahead of them? That's a world of difference between just getting something to Mk XIV, imho.

    edit: For an example of trying to G14 a U14 piece...I'm trying to G14 the Bioneural Infusion Circuits. It's 93366 TP for each bar...and...each bar only gives me a 1% chance to do it. So without any crits/boosts, I'm looking at 8x STUs (of the cheapest variety it will take) and 8600 Dil...per bar...per 1%. That's where the WTF is this TRIBBLE comes into play, imho...heh, getting it to Mk XIV was cheap - even lucked out with a UR flip before getting to Mk XIV. Trying to G14 this...I'm questioning my sanity, and this is a cheap upgrade compared to things like Deflectors and the rest. It does start to move into the 2% per bar at a certain point...which I only know because I ran out of Dil at 15% and still trying. I don't even want to guess at how much Dil I spent to get "nowhere"...oh well. I need my bling!

    edit2: I'm so kicking myself too, cause lol - I could have easily upgraded my Beams to Mk XIV instead. /MEGAFACEPALM
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It's not real diminishing returns, so to speak. Heh, it's one of my favorite troll discussions out there, cause it's so easy to play off both sides against one another - but the mods hate when you do that. :P

    Consider the following...

    1
    1 + 1 = 2
    You see a 100% increase.

    2
    2 + 1 = 3
    You see a 50% increase.

    3
    3 + 1 = 4
    You see a 25% increase.

    Each time you added the same amount. You're not getting diminished returns from the 1, you're getting the full 1 each time you add the 1. You are, however, seeing a decrease in the incremental returns as far as how it affected your overall amount.

    Geko's diminishing returns are the overall effect that it has on your damage...it will diminish in that sense, although no individual amounts have actually diminished.

    In the end, if it is the +60% strength as suggested by what Geko said and I pointed out in my previous post, then this boost would mean...

    Mk XIV = Mk XII [Dmg]x12
    Mk XIV = Mk XII w/ 2x VR Tac Consoles (+30 each)

    ...for a comparison.

    i was gonna make a post pointing out that tac consoles etc don't have diminishing returns, common misconception people have when they look at just the raw output of adding tac consoles, but i didn't bother because i knew you would ;)
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Yeah. Me, too. And I kinda feel that the damage boost increases are probably not that big of an issue than a few other things that Delta Rising introduced.

    all i can think about with these upgrades are the 5 DHC zindi escorts, ziping around at 160 speed with 90 turn rate, with the specialization perk that hugely buffs their damage wile they stay on full throttle, dealing CRF damage thats as high per shot as my SS damage is, on my upgrade-less intel ship.
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  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There seem to be some questions as to why we changed the damage on Mark 13 and Mark 14 space weapons. So I wanted to explain the history and talk a little math.

    As we were planning Mark 13 and Mark 14 item, we wanted them to be significantly better than Mark 12. All items generally increase at a lineal pace at about +10% improvement per Mark. We wanted the difference between Mark 12 and Mark 13 items to be more than that, and the difference between Mark 13 and Mark 14 to be even greater still. In general, we wanted Mark 14 items to be about +30% better than Mark 12 items. You can see this reflected in the HP of T5U and T6 ships.

    So, technically, this was implemented correctly. If you just consider the weapon alone, a Mark 12 weapon that does 222 damage will do about 282 damage as Mark 14, which is around +27% – slightly under target, but within the range of what we were shooting for. However, this is only true if you have no weapon skills, and no items (like consoles) that increase you weapon damage. If you have both Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 321 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 381 damage, which is only around +19%. And if you add 4 weapon consoles, a Mark 12 weapon will do about 441 damage, while a Mark 14 will do about 501 damage, which is only around +14%. Basically, the diminishing returns system will reduce the bonus you get out of Mark 14 weapons, even though the weapons themselves are actually on target.

    We feel most players have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill, and a lot of players have at least some item that makes their weapons better. So we wanted to make Mark 13 and 14 items have a more noticeable increase in damage that was in line with the increase in HP of critter and player ships. The new increase in damage will do the following:

    • If you have no skill and no energy weapon consoles: +50% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill but no energy weapon consoles: +34% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and two (2) energy weapon consoles: +29% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14
    • If you have Starship Weapon Training and Starship Energy Weapons skill and four (4) energy weapon consoles: +25% damage from Mark 12 to Mark 14

    The last 3 scenarios average to about +30% increase in damage, which was the original target. If you have absolutely no skill or consoles, you get a much bigger boost, but this is unlikely, and you will probably need that boost anyway.

    What about other items like shields, engines, etc?
    Well, those items are not as aggressively effected by the same diminishing returns math that weapons are, so they really don’t need to be increased? They are working as expected.

    What about ground weapons?
    We considered ground weapons, but ground weapons aren’t affect by items like consoles, and are affected by skill far less than space items. They are performing much closer to what would be expected.

    What about PvP?
    This change will have a larger effect in PvP – that is, you PvP foes with Mark 14 weapons will kill you faster. This is true, but should still be more in line with PvP pre-Delta Rising, assuming a ship with Mark 14 gear is fighting a T5U or T6 ship. The bonus in HP vs Damage should now go up at comparable rates.



    As always, no number are final. We will continue to monitor the data and feedback and tune as necessary. But hopefully, everyone will be excited that they will be blowing up bad guys a Iittle faster now.


    LLAP


    Congratulations, you have just made 160-170k DPS plus ISA runs possible.
  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    all i can think about with these upgrades are the 5 DHC zindi escorts, ziping around at 160 speed with 90 turn rate, with the specialization perk that hugely buffs their damage wile they stay on full throttle, dealing CRF damage thats as high per shot as my SS damage is, on my upgrade-less intel ship.

    Yeah, today's increase is just another attempt to increase the average customer spend. It's too small an increase to justify the upgrade costs, in EC and refined dilithium, that each player would need to upgrade their weapons to Mk XIV especially when some of us have adapted and are now able to handle elite content with Mk XII purple gear.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • edited December 2014
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    For Energy Weapons, it's 64k TP to go from VR12 to VR13 and 128k to go from VR13 to VR14. That's uh...not that expensive. Are you guys calculating in the overall cost say to take something from VR12 to G14? Cause this is just about things at Mk XIV, regardless of the rarity of the item. Yeah, doing the gambling thing - fingers crossed - trying to get to G14 is a heinous cost...but just VR14 isn't much.

    Now...Torp prices to upgrade...wtf's going on there, eh? 85-106k VR12 to VR13 compared to the 64k of the Energy Weapon...and then going VR13 to VR14 at twice that? /facepalm

    Guess a Dev or, two have had bad experiences with a torpedo at some point.

    Anyways, the so called diminished returns for investing in energy weapons skills/tac consoles/weapons seems still not much to look at for gains, unless you are solely in it for min/maxing.

    MKXII's will still net good dmg as shown, even with the modest dmg boost to MKXIII's and MKXIV's.

    Mostly I see this really benefitting certain build types, that don't wish to rely on points spent into energy weapon skills or, loaded down with tac consoles the most, while min/maxers will go for it just because it's some more dmg in general.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • pashganpashgan Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It doesn't matter: I won't start upgrading as long as upgrade cost is ~360k dilithium per single set (to get it from xii to xiv). It's 2M dilithium total for my six toons.

    How about decrease of dilithium cost of upgrade procedure by 50%?
  • strorusstrorus Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi,

    I don't understand, why would someone with skills and consoles get less of a bonus than someone without either?

    Irrespective of that, I take it someone with said skills and consoles will still have a higher damage output than someone without?

    Cheers
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    More grind, more powercreep.

    Obviously, that's exactly what this game needed, and what was asked for.

    See, Cryptic listen to their customers.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Basically, split weapon damage out into two types.

    Antiproton/Disruptor/Phaser/etc.

    AND

    Bonus

    A portion of the damage on all weapons would be of the Bonus type including Dmg mods and damage increases associated with color quality.

    They would scale separately but would both get buffed because of the reduction of scaling potential, making for higher basic damage in good gear but less high end potential. Bonus would not scale with range or be subject to resistances (nor would it interface with most BO abilities) making it better for less skilled players.

    So your "Bonus" wouldn't be the same Bonus we currently have? It would basically be a new system in its entirety?
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    What I'd like to know is , why were these changes not instituted in parallel to the increase of the HP when DR launched ?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    strorus wrote: »
    Hi,

    I don't understand, why would someone with skills and consoles get less of a bonus than someone without either?

    Irrespective of that, I take it someone with said skills and consoles will still have a higher damage output than someone without?

    Cheers

    It's not that they would get less of a boost from it, but the more boosts you have the less each boost adds overall.

    Going with some totally random made up numbers having no relation to the mechanics in the game for a simple example.

    Say you've got a Weapon that does 1000 Damage.

    Both Tom and Jerry have that Weapon, so they're both at 1000 Damage.

    Each of them also has Gear which adds 500 Damage. So they're both at 1500 Damage. They each received +50% Damage.

    Now say Tom's got Gear#2 which adds 500 Damage again. So Tom's at 2000 Damage and Jerry's at 1500 Damage.

    We upgrade each of their Weapon to Weapon#2, which adds say 250 Damage. Both are getting 250 Damage in addition to what they had. Weapon#2 has 25% more damage than Weapon.

    Tom's gone from 2000 Damage to 2250 Damage.
    Jerry's gone from 1500 Damage to 1750 Damage.

    Tom's increased by 12.5%.
    Jerry's increased by 16.7%.

    Both received the +250 Damage. Both Weapon#2 do 25% more damage than Weapon.

    It's just the incremental increase that is smaller for Tom, as the increase was a smaller percentage of his overall damage because of his Gear#2 than it was for Jerry who did not have Gear#2. But they both received the same actual increase.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    pashgan wrote: »
    It doesn't matter: I won't start upgrading as long as upgrade cost is ~360k dilithium per single set (to get it from xii to xiv). It's 2M dilithium total for my six toons.

    How about decrease of dilithium cost of upgrade procedure by 50%?

    Don't fear they are continuing to monitor the data. So if you continue to not upgrade they will continue to buff them. lol :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • js26568js26568 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    erei1 wrote: »
    More grind, more powercreep.

    Obviously, that's exactly what this game needed, and what was asked for.

    See, Cryptic listen to their customers.

    Exactly this. Nobody was asking for more DPS from the Mk XIV gear. Everybody was asking for the cost (in DILITHIUM, I must stress that) to be reduced.

    To upgrade one of my Fleet Antiproton beam arrays from Mk XII to Mk XIII needs 6 superior beam weapon upgrades, plus 6500 dil (roughly).

    To get them from Mk XIII to Mk XIV will need another 12 superior beam weapon upgrades plus another 13,000 dil.

    The fact that some people think this is a perfectly reasonable cost astounds me. The same people who complained about being double-dipped for ships (or triple-dipped if you own an Intrepid) are now saying that 9 million EC and 19500 refined dil for each one of my beam arrays isn't an enormous rip off?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Free Tibet!
  • doublechadoublecha Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It's good but the upgrade is still too expensive and the [mod] are random.
    Qapla'
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Calling it right now: one way or another, they are going to mess this up.

    Just look what happened last time they made sweeping changes to a fundamental game mechanic with supposedly good intentions.
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • drkfrontiersdrkfrontiers Member Posts: 2,477 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Calling it right now: one way or another, they are going to mess this up.

    Just look what happened last time they made sweeping changes to a fundamental game mechanic with supposedly good intentions.

    Good Intentions?!

    Nothing the devs have done during the last 3 seasons had good intentions in mind. Its been a pure money grab since Season 5.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Still not going to upgrade weapons. Tac consoles, yeah, but I like to switch weapon's type/version around; so upgrading the actual weapons themselves, is out of the question..
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
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