I admit yours came across as being quite light-hearted, if anyone should be getting flak it should be me lets face it :P
To be honest I'm resigned to the fact that not much is going to change, for now. I was, however, a bit surprised when I mentioned the nerfs and the OP clearly had absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
Back in the day STOked, RSA and pretty much all the podcasts took community questions -- as in polled the community for questions for a specific Dev that they had scheduled an interview with .
This could also sidestep the feeling that the right questions are not being asked / answered , and Elijah did ask for community involvement ... .
But the questions that were chosen to be asked then would need to be presented as is, and not through some interpretation of one of the podcasters (no offense) .
I remember those days.... people kept raging about how their favorite questions didn't get asked. And how "no one asks any tough questions"...
To be honest... most of those questions don't belong in interviews. Yes, I once asked Kestral about Divide et Impera. But I didn't rage about it, or try to say it meant she was horrible... I politely asked why the story went the way it did. Apparently Kestral hated the way it turned out too. That is the number one thing in interviews. You MUST be polite, because if you aren't the interviewee can simply leave and not tell you anything.
Asking a writer about costume glitches is a waste of time. As is asking Thomas about game balance. You need to choose questions that are relevant to the interview.
Which dodged the point almost entirely, that's not a response that's an attempted put down. That is actually behaviour that I detest more than people being trolls, trolls are just funny. But I pretty much addressed this already in my first post, that I do have my ear close to most of the main communities related to the game, and Elijah clearly doesn't take anything from any of them.
You're implying that there's a need to 'dodge' anything. Elijah doesn't owe anything to anyone here. He doesn't answer to you, nor I, nor any other poster in this thread.
If you wish, I could address the post. But as I said almost immediately after it (paraphrasing myself here), I thought it was a very good post.
I think the difference would be that rather than engaging in these one sided dialogues where an interviewee specifically brings up the forums and says, "I don't know what they're talking about", instead of saying, "Yeah, they seem nuts to me too", elijah could respond with a correct summation of "what they're talking about."
My observation is that whether the questions are pre-vetted or not, certain interviewees use the platform of an interview to take shots at part of the community (and have a history of doing this) and if the dev is going to start this, it's frustrating for the podcaster, who claims to be a community representative, to shrug and agree.
I think Elijah means very well. I think he and other podcasters (including mav and Terilynn and havraha) have tried to do a good job. I think certain devs (mainly just one) have a tendency to use interviews to drag the forums into this and the podcasters, having little knowledge of the substansive issues, get poisoned on valid complaints. And that said dev knows he's doing this and is using interviews as a bully pulpit to troll the forums.
Then by the time the podcaster seeks out the forums, we're whipped up into enough of a frenzy that it's easy to dismiss us.
I suggest Gulberat as a good one to talk to because he's managed pointed and insightful criticisms that seem to resist efforts to troll him.
Whereas I freely admit I am trolling prone and treat it the way Marty McFly treats being called chicken in Back to the Future party II and that's on a good day. I'd be all for a forum where feeding and flaming trolls was permissible. I think, legitimately, the internet would be a better place if people escalated with trolls, not de-escalated (so long as no physical threats are made), and that there is growing expert and academic consensus to support the idea that trolls should be fed and fought with until they surrender. I also recognize that isn't the policy here and see it as a shortcoming of the boards that winds up appealing to a pro-troll false balance since it allows artful trolls to maneuver people they want to silence into moderation and flame threads to get them closed, silencing dissenting views.
I disagree with escalation. I can fully relate to a strong desire to flame out at a troll and destroy their bloated little egos. But it doesn't really work. It just creates one more troll -- oneself.
I see the 'artful troll' issue all the time, along with the not so artful trolls. Including lots of people who ought to know better and generally betray their better natures when one of their hot buttons gets pushed.
The rules are a harsh mistress, though, and the artful trolls are adept at avoiding an open-and-shut case of breaking the rules. I'd love to be able to 'spank' someone who's acting up with a short time-out -- say 24 hours or less -- with no other consequences except that their ability to provoke is interrupted. I don't have that tool. Not even Smirk does. I can do one of three things:
1. Send a warning. Ultimately, though, a warning is toothless by itself. Only when they start to pile up do they become a justification for taking stronger action. By then, somebody's thread has been derailed or gone down in flames.
2. Recommend an infraction. There's the sword, but it's a double-edged one that sometimes cuts people who really ought to not get banned but they have trouble holding their tempers and being tactful. No argument that there are some who fully deserve it. Thing is, that infraction is not a good tool for dealing with temporary lapses in judgement.
3. Altering threads. I have lots of choices there, from careful surgery to weed whacking to disappearing acts. It's not a great option and sometimes it doesn't work or ends up causing other problems but it's the most powerful tool I have to enforce compliance to the rules.
So, case in point, this thread. I can't define trolling as simply making people upset, or I'd have to close down half the conversations going on. Where do I draw the line? Some of you think that being harsh with people you consider to be idiots, liars, or trolls is justifiable. At what point does 'harsh criticism' go too far?
I agree with Elijah that how you say something is just as important as what you say. Sometimes even moreso. Lord knows, Geko has a habit of saying things in just the wrong way to coax out the torches and pitchforks and he shouldn't be saying them in podcasts.
I don't think that he's intentionally out to smear the forum community in the podcasts. I'm not sure the man has that much guile or bile. Based on my observations, though, there are plenty of reasons for the tension between the devs, PWE, and forum users.
How do we fix that? I honestly don't know, and the thought drives me to near despair. But an honest effort to be both forthright and respectful on every side wouldn't hurt.
With that, I have to leave. I will say that if everyone tried to be as forthright and respectful as Leviathan and Elijah are trying to be, we'd have fewer problems here.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
To be honest I'm resigned to the fact that not much is going to change, for now. I was, however, a bit surprised when I mentioned the nerfs and the OP clearly had absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
Yeah that did concern me quite a bit, don't get me wrong I think the experience issue is worse than the upgrade system and needs more priority, I just put a lot of work into testing the upgrade system.
But still, if he really doesn't know about the nerfs, oh boy....
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
With that, I have to leave. I will say that if everyone tried to be as forthright and respectful as Leviathan and Elijah are trying to be, we'd have fewer problems here.
Agreed, that is the core principle guiding all interactions I have with the devs.
You're implying that there's a need to 'dodge' anything. Elijah doesn't owe anything to anyone here. He doesn't answer to you, nor I, nor any other poster in this thread.
If you wish, I could address the post. But as I said almost immediately after it (paraphrasing myself here), I thought it was a very good post.
I assume you mean addressing my post, though your last line I wasn't entirely clear on. That said if you want to address any point in my post your welcome to, I stand by it. But if you don't mind I don't know who's post you meant there.
I just found the whole interview with Geko, a bit weird. I mean outside of the usual rubbish it didn't actually sound like Geko talking, it was almost as if he was talking of a script a bit, which I found very unusual because he usually talks more smoothly, it's kinda hard to explain. Either way I feel a lot of what Geko said was out of whack with what is actually the case right now, and I just don't feel that the community was represented as well as it could be.
Now Elijah says he'd like people to help, and fair enough. However if one was to help out I'd have to ask what the scope is on turning this boat around. Someone wanting to do that would need the leeway to work, and regardless of what is said, if you say you represent the community, volunteer or not, you by default make yourself accountable to them. It's the same in real situations.
Do I think P1 could be turned around and made more acceptable to the players? I think so, but it would require some open-mindedness and some effort, but like I said most research really doesn't take long at all.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I assume you mean addressing my post, though your last line I wasn't entirely clear on. That said if you want to address any point in my post your welcome to, I stand by it. But if you don't mind I don't know who's post you meant there.
Sorry, I meant stoleviathan99's early post. Apologies for the miscommunication.
Sorry, I meant stoleviathan99's early post. Apologies for the miscommunication.
That's fine.
At this point it seems to have become clear Elijah isn't interested in having a serious discussion, so frankly unless he does I'll just assume his point about wanting help to make P1 better is just another case of lots of words and no intention.
Honestly, if I felt like it would be genuinely be taken seriously I'd offer a solution, but more recently I do feel no one cares, everyone ignores posts that have any ounce of sense in them in favour of their own opinion, which I might add they never care to back up themselves. It also stinks of hypocrisy when you offer valid points to someone demanding them and they outright ignore them, happens a lot...
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
An argument that contains an insult is still an argument. You don't get to discard or ignore hard numbers and facts as ad hominems just because the other guy insulted your mother while they were posting them. Grow a thicker skin and answer the question as posed.
People who can't post with self control don't deserve consideration ever. People who are abused shouldn't have to grow a thicker skin, its the abusers who should be tossed aside like the trash they are.
At this point it seems to have become clear Elijah isn't interested in having a serious discussion, so frankly unless he does I'll just assume his point about wanting help to make P1 better is just another case of lots of words and no intention.
Honestly, if I felt like it would be genuinely be taken seriously I'd offer a solution, but more recently I do feel no one cares, everyone ignores posts that have any ounce of sense in them in favour of their own opinion, which I might add they never care to back up themselves. It also stinks of hypocrisy when you offer valid points to someone demanding them and they outright ignore them, happens a lot...
IF you want to be taken seriously then you should start by defining "make P1 better". So far it seems as if the core problem here is that you want Elijah to do something he is unwilling to do because he knows that it is not in his best interest. With that in mind it makes perfect sense for him to be uninterested in discussing what you think would be an improvement. You've already given him reason to believe that any idea you propose would be a bad one.
Would you report the color of flowers from a podcast out of Harlem, no you probably wouldn't would you?
Community leader has to, obviously, deal with what is going on in the community period.
What you are doing is trying to write the news for someone outside the community who PROFIT on the expense of the community.
So I don't think it's far fetched to call you a sell-out at all.
I'd like to dare you to start using steam so people can see the amount of hours in-game you are not logging.
I am pretty convinced you don't play the game at all - and that's one reason it's so easy to sell out because any negative changes to the game has zero influence on you.
Your gameplay is running the podcast and developer-like dreams of worship you seek out.
Ugh. Pages and pages that basically amount to throwing stones at a volunteer podcast and arguing with each other, and people wonder why the Devs don't take the forums more seriously.
So, Priority One supposedly has access to the Devs that they are somehow obligated to use to be a bully pulpit for the forum community?
If it's so easy to do that, why not go start your own podcast?
Oh. Right. You don't have access to the Devs to lend legitimacy to whatever you choose to rant about. So you expect Priority One to do that on your behalf.
People, this is entertainment. It's not supposed to be journalism. I've listened to podcasts where they've expressed things that they did and didn't like about the game. But you can't expect them to have Geko on the show and try to conduct a hostile interview. They don't have that kind of clout. The first time they do that will be the last time they get a Dev interview.
As someone else pointed out, the podcasts do get the Devs talking about behind the scenes stuff that we'd never hear otherwise. THAT is their community service.
I haven't listened to it (this particular installment) myself. Maybe I should to understand what all the uproar is about, but I simply don't have a couple of hours to spend on it... one of the reasons why I don't listen much anymore.
Fact is, I don't need to listen to it to understand that certain people are not engaging in reasoned debate about it. And the insulting posts and the baiting posts are going to stop one way or the other.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I have legitimately been having fun with the "Snorg" invasions.
My reflection after the first day was something like, "Why didn't Kobali have something like this?" (It would have fit the World War 1 trench warfare motif really well - attacking in waves; "Over the Walls".)
People, this is entertainment. It's not supposed to be journalism. I've listened to podcasts where they've expressed things that they did and didn't like about the game. But you can't expect them to have Geko on the show and try to conduct a hostile interview. They don't have that kind of clout. The first time they do that will be the last time they get a Dev interview.
I don't think that anyone is asking them to conduct a hostile interview or asking them not to mention the things that they like or don't like. The concern that I and others have with the interviews is that sometimes they ask a question and it gets completely dodged or twisted into something else. And it never gets questioned. Obviously there are things that the devs can't talk about, but I don't think that it would ruin their relationship if P1 maybe pointed it out when it happened.
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At this point it seems to have become clear Elijah isn't interested in having a serious discussion, so frankly unless he does I'll just assume his point about wanting help to make P1 better is just another case of lots of words and no intention.
Where are you getting all this from?! Because he doesn't cater to your 'suggestions'? Far as I see it, the guy doesn't owe us anything. He runs a podcast, for free, probably hoping people will enjoy it. But, silly him, he wants us to bring things to the table that are constructive and usable for the show. How dare he!
Let me spell it out for you: Geko and the other Devs show up because they want to. Elijah isn't a world-famed reporter, with the eyes and the cameras of the world on him and his interviews. He's having his guests at Cryptic's suffrance. There can never be an interrogation, or a third degree cross-examination of whatever Dev you like to see grilled to tell 'The Truth.' He's still asking the questions. But when Geko decides to side-step the issue, there's little to be done, really. Or he could put on the screws, and realize he just did his last podcast. There's no inbetween. Personally, I think Elijah is striking the right balance between voicing concerns and not ticking the Devs off.
Would I personally like to rake Geko over the coals, for instance, over why the queues are really empty? Of course I would! But why is it so difficult for people to grasp that you can't run a podcast like that?! We often 'demand' answers from the Devs here too; and you could argue that Cryptic owes his customers at least *some* explanations, every now and then. But Elijah and his team don't even hold that over Cryptic.
If you're frustrated with the Devs' answers -- I know I often am -- ask them right here on this forum! But don't go badger Elijah and his team for not eing tough-nose towards their guests. Personally, I love the show. And even evasive answers are still informative (if, for nothing else, because the question is being evaded).
I consider Elijah a reporter in the most native sense of the word: as someone reporting on how Devs tend to think (by lettting them speak). And then I'll judge those words for myself. Or not at all. But I'm invariably getting a lot out of the podcast, one way or the other.
People, this is entertainment. It's not supposed to be journalism.
I would be okay with this being entertainment and not journalism if communication from the development team was just as comprehensive on the forums than the communication allegedely in podcasts.
It should not have to be journalism. But just like the Daily Show or the Colbert Report, sometimes it becomes journalism by accident, even if it was at first just entertainment.
As someone else pointed out, the podcasts do get the Devs talking about behind the scenes stuff that we'd never hear otherwise.
This is exactly why people have a problem with this, and if they do not have a problem with it, it is the reason why they should.
I haven't listened to it (this particular installment) myself. Maybe I should to understand what all the uproar is about, but I simply don't have a couple of hours to spend on it... one of the reasons why I don't listen much anymore.
When you start getting involved in forum dialogue from posters who are citing quotes made in podcasts, but not made anywhere else, maybe you can see why there is an uproar.
The fact is, things said on podcasts -- for better or for worse, has become a form of ammunition, just as easily as forum posts or twitter posts.
And just like forum posts or twitter posts, podcasts are not a sacred cow and just as easily held to scrutiny, regardless of their volunteer status.
Fact is, I don't need to listen to it to understand that certain people are not engaging in reasoned debate about it. And the insulting posts and the baiting posts are going to stop one way or the other.
People who can't post with self control don't deserve consideration ever. People who are abused shouldn't have to grow a thicker skin, its the abusers who should be tossed aside like the trash they are.
Kind of harsh there, and a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, but in essence, I agree with this point. If you can't behave like rational adults, there's no reason to listen, even if you have a good point.
And just like forum posts or twitter posts, podcasts are not a sacred cow and just as easily held to scrutiny, regardless of their volunteer status.
This I agree with. But there's too much baiting going on in this particular thread and too many insults being thrown around.
Angry people I can understand. Complaints about the game? No problem. But fighting over the podcast, not cool. If people don't like the podcast, then they should stop listening. Or go complain on the podcast's site. We have enough trouble keeping the peace around here.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
From what I've read of the first five pages of this thread, most of the posts were passionate but hardly directly insulting or derogatory to the OP. Most were a reference to how the OP has been overly gentle with questioning the Dev's. Things like misinterpreting the EC nerf with the Skill/XP nerf, the levelling nerf's and general huge grind increase...
They are valid concerns and in the P1 podcast it would be remiss not to address these concerns. There are indeed ways to put these concerns without saying things like "Geko why did you lie to us about all the DR nerfs..." indeed that would be imprudent, but formulating a way to ask the questions and extract a meaningful answer would go a long way to assist the dev's claims of more engagement with the community.
The only reason the OP is getting so much flak is it's about the only avenue left to contact the Dev's directly. There is barely any contact on the forums, with only one or two regulars in the Bugs section and of course Tacofangs
Diktat's from D'Angelo and Geko aren't something that are accepted as good form after the recent releases, mostly because of the double speak and the attempts to treat players as the enemy. They may not have had that intention, but it certainly came across that way.
As for why people continue to rail against the dev's, well it's more than likely because they have enjoyed their time with the game somewhat and with the current changes which are so stark and so extreme, it's rendered one of their hobbies almost pointless, something they've invested a lot of time and in some cases a lot of money to enjoy. Not everyone is willing to throw in the towel just because of some crazy rule changes, most leave, some fight to correct the wrongdoing. Formula 1 did the same thing for 2014, it added Double Points to the last race of the season. Unilaterally the fans and teams hated the decision. The rules stayed active until the end of the season and have been removed for next year due to public backlash. Most of the arguments weren't phrased with Moderator friendly comments...
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
I remember those days.... people kept raging about how their favorite questions didn't get asked. And how "no one asks any tough questions"...
True , there were some who did that , but remember that that was in the days when several podcasts published interviews that included questions from the fans (who were credited) , plus there were the "Captains Logs" at Massively (better under Brandon , much worse but at times still ok under Terrilyn) , plus Stahl also took questions from the forums in a monthly / bi-monthly segment .
Point is , if there was a question , it was going to be either asked or at least looked at .
Second point -- my-my how far we've fallen ... , in terms of interaction .
To be honest... most of those questions don't belong in interviews.
(snip)
You MUST be polite, because if you aren't the interviewee can simply leave and not tell you anything.
The former is your opinion , and I agree with the latter .
Asking a writer about costume glitches is a waste of time. As is asking Thomas about game balance. You need to choose questions that are relevant to the interview.
Also agreed .
But the post I was answering to asked a simple question : how can we make things better ?
I went in my mind to the times I have classified as "better" , and since option A (bring back the original STOked) was not on the table , nor was the supposed promise that in exchange for the monthly questions to Dsthal / D'Angelo we could ask for Devs to write Blogs on topics we were interested in hearing about more -- thus , I wrote down the third option -- community questions @ P1 .
It's not my preferred venue either , because as I added in my caveat , I am concerned about the questions not being asked as they were but rephrased and thus made useless , but there you go .
I did my monthly positive post . :P
Where are you getting all this from?! Because he doesn't cater to your 'suggestions'? Far as I see it, the guy doesn't owe us anything. He runs a podcast, for free, probably hoping people will enjoy it. But, silly him, he wants us to bring things to the table that are constructive and usable for the show. How dare he!
Let me spell it out for you: Geko and the other Devs show up because they want to. Elijah isn't a world-famed reporter, with the eyes and the cameras of the world on him and his interviews. He's having his guests at Cryptic's suffrance. There can never be an interrogation, or a third degree cross-examination of whatever Dev you like to see grilled to tell 'The Truth.' He's still asking the questions. But when Geko decides to side-step the issue, there's little to be done, really. Or he could put on the screws, and realize he just did his last podcast. There's no inbetween. Personally, I think Elijah is striking the right balance between voicing concerns and not ticking the Devs off.
Would I personally like to rake Geko over the coals, for instance, over why the queues are really empty? Of course I would! But why is it so difficult for people to grasp that you can't run a podcast like that?! We often 'demand' answers from the Devs here too; and you could argue that Cryptic owes his customers at least *some* explanations, every now and then. But Elijah and his team don't even hold that over Cryptic.
If you're frustrated with the Devs' answers -- I know I often am -- ask them right here on this forum! But don't go badger Elijah and his team for not eing tough-nose towards their guests. Personally, I love the show. And even evasive answers are still informative (if, for nothing else, because the question is being evaded).
I consider Elijah a reporter in the most native sense of the word: as someone reporting on how Devs tend to think (by lettting them speak). And then I'll judge those words for myself. Or not at all. But I'm invariably getting a lot out of the podcast, one way or the other.
My experiences from the few times I've gotten to be the interviewer is that If they're evasive and you gently prod them... they won't get mad and leave, but you still won't get anything. It's usually a way of talking around soemthign without directly saying "I can't tell you".
True , there were some who did that , but remember that that was in the days when several podcasts published interviews that included questions from the fans (who were credited) , plus there were the "Captains Logs" at Massively (better under Brandon , much worse but at times still ok under Terrilyn) , plus Stahl also took questions from the forums in a monthly / bi-monthly segment .
Point is , if there was a question , it was going to be either asked or at least looked at .
Nothing's stopping people from posting in this thread questions that they would like to have asked. I'm sure that if Elijah thinks it's worth asking he'll consider it.
The former is your opinion , and I agree with the latter .
Well, I was specifically thinking of things that had been mentioned as "tough" questions that no one wanted to ask in interviews. Such as "Why does Cryptic hate the Galaxy" or "Why does Cryptic favor the Feds so much?" etc.... Sure there are many people who would love a good answer to those, but... it's not the sort of thing you can just toss onto the table even if you phrase it politely(which a lot of the forum ragers don't). And the discussion will probably come to a screeching halt at "I can't tell you that" sooner or later.
Someone from Corporate needs to tell Geko to stop making public comments that aren't vetted through whatever Public Relations Dept. PWI has.
He's done more damage to the game just by opening his mouth, than Delta Rising could ever do.
That's just my personal opinion, but one would be hard pressed to discredit this fact.
P1 is in a no win situation, and the only way they could get out of it, is too not have the higher-ups from Cryptic appear on the show.
(something I'm sure they would rather not do)
Perhaps a short epilogue to the show could be done to vet a bit of any opposing opinions in a cordial way.
Something that would not involve the guest-of-the-day, but could delve a bit deeper into the topic at hand.
Or even have a shortened episode that puts rational viewpoints out there for folks to consider.
(any viewpoint would be valid, as long as it is cordial and meaningful to the game)
That was one of the most interesting things about the original STOked podcasts, Jeremy and Chris rarely disagreed on the topic at hand but even so, one would usually take the opposing view and try to flesh it out so everybody watching would understand why folks disagreed.
They also had great chemistry together and wonderful video presence.
It was a sad day when they broadcast their last show together.
(even though we ended up getting a really great knowledgeable DEV out of it)
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I have legitimately been having fun with the "Snorg" invasions.
My reflection after the first day was something like, "Why didn't Kobali have something like this?" (It would have fit the World War 1 trench warfare motif really well - attacking in waves; "Over the Walls".)
Oh my goodness...that is a fascinating idea for Kobali.
Though I'm curious, do you feel it's really WWI or WWII that the Kobali battlefield resembles most? At least personally I thought that the behavior and even Vaadwaur aesthetics leaned towards WWII.
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Someone from Corporate needs to tell Geko to stop making public comments that aren't vetted through whatever Public Relations Dept. PWI has.
He's done more damage to the game just by opening his mouth, than Delta Rising could ever do.
Absolutely, someone needs to muzzle this guy, the best thing would be to keep this guy away from the public entirely, or at the very least he should be limited to keeping his remarks cogent to the facts, keeping his personal animosity out of it.
P1 is in a no win situation, and the only way they could get out of it, is too not have the higher-ups from Cryptic appear on the show.
(something I'm sure they would rather not do)
They may not be able to ask the tough questions for fear of losing access to these developers, but they are certainly in a position of being able to steer the discussion with their questions, denying people like Geko an opportunity to use the podcast as a means to take pot shots at the community with impunity.
Perhaps a short epilogue to the show could be done to vet a bit of any opposing opinions in a cordial way.
Something that would not involve the guest-of-the-day, but could delve a bit deeper into the topic at hand.
Or even have a shortened episode that puts rational viewpoints out there for folks to consider.
(any viewpoint would be valid, as long as it is cordial and meaningful to the game)
Though it might be desirable, I suspect a post interview analysis and rebuttal wouldn't work for much the same reasons that an adversarial interview wouldn't work, it would taint any future relationship with developers.
I can appreciate what the podcasters are doing and they are providing useful information in itself, but it simply is not a journalistic enterprise and since they have no greater means of forcing developer cooperation than us, if we expect them to act like journalists we may end up losing what useful information they can give us .
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
I suspect we are a long long way from ever hearing any sort of reasoning or explanation for the recent series of nerfs, blatant nerfs, nerfs hidden by double speak and nerfs that we were told definitely wouldn't happen but happened at the next patch anyway.
We definitely won't be hearing any sort of explanation in the Priority One podcasts. What a wasted opportunity.
My experiences from the few times I've gotten to be the interviewer is that If they're evasive and you gently prod them... they won't get mad and leave, but you still won't get anything. It's usually a way of talking around soemthign without directly saying "I can't tell you".
Exactly. You don't have to go all Jeremy Paxman on someone, and he has had some just walk off in a huff on live TV. Even hearing a bit of gentle prodding would likely make more people happy instead of what sounds like lip service in fear of being left out in the cold. It would be "atleast they tried it was the devs who were being evasive".
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What I said was pretty tame compared to the rest of you...
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I admit yours came across as being quite light-hearted, if anyone should be getting flak it should be me lets face it :P
To be honest I'm resigned to the fact that not much is going to change, for now. I was, however, a bit surprised when I mentioned the nerfs and the OP clearly had absolutely no idea what I was talking about.
Free Tibet!
To be honest... most of those questions don't belong in interviews. Yes, I once asked Kestral about Divide et Impera. But I didn't rage about it, or try to say it meant she was horrible... I politely asked why the story went the way it did. Apparently Kestral hated the way it turned out too. That is the number one thing in interviews. You MUST be polite, because if you aren't the interviewee can simply leave and not tell you anything.
Asking a writer about costume glitches is a waste of time. As is asking Thomas about game balance. You need to choose questions that are relevant to the interview.
My character Tsin'xing
If you wish, I could address the post. But as I said almost immediately after it (paraphrasing myself here), I thought it was a very good post.
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I disagree with escalation. I can fully relate to a strong desire to flame out at a troll and destroy their bloated little egos. But it doesn't really work. It just creates one more troll -- oneself.
I see the 'artful troll' issue all the time, along with the not so artful trolls. Including lots of people who ought to know better and generally betray their better natures when one of their hot buttons gets pushed.
The rules are a harsh mistress, though, and the artful trolls are adept at avoiding an open-and-shut case of breaking the rules. I'd love to be able to 'spank' someone who's acting up with a short time-out -- say 24 hours or less -- with no other consequences except that their ability to provoke is interrupted. I don't have that tool. Not even Smirk does. I can do one of three things:
1. Send a warning. Ultimately, though, a warning is toothless by itself. Only when they start to pile up do they become a justification for taking stronger action. By then, somebody's thread has been derailed or gone down in flames.
2. Recommend an infraction. There's the sword, but it's a double-edged one that sometimes cuts people who really ought to not get banned but they have trouble holding their tempers and being tactful. No argument that there are some who fully deserve it. Thing is, that infraction is not a good tool for dealing with temporary lapses in judgement.
3. Altering threads. I have lots of choices there, from careful surgery to weed whacking to disappearing acts. It's not a great option and sometimes it doesn't work or ends up causing other problems but it's the most powerful tool I have to enforce compliance to the rules.
So, case in point, this thread. I can't define trolling as simply making people upset, or I'd have to close down half the conversations going on. Where do I draw the line? Some of you think that being harsh with people you consider to be idiots, liars, or trolls is justifiable. At what point does 'harsh criticism' go too far?
I agree with Elijah that how you say something is just as important as what you say. Sometimes even moreso. Lord knows, Geko has a habit of saying things in just the wrong way to coax out the torches and pitchforks and he shouldn't be saying them in podcasts.
I don't think that he's intentionally out to smear the forum community in the podcasts. I'm not sure the man has that much guile or bile. Based on my observations, though, there are plenty of reasons for the tension between the devs, PWE, and forum users.
How do we fix that? I honestly don't know, and the thought drives me to near despair. But an honest effort to be both forthright and respectful on every side wouldn't hurt.
With that, I have to leave. I will say that if everyone tried to be as forthright and respectful as Leviathan and Elijah are trying to be, we'd have fewer problems here.
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Yeah that did concern me quite a bit, don't get me wrong I think the experience issue is worse than the upgrade system and needs more priority, I just put a lot of work into testing the upgrade system.
But still, if he really doesn't know about the nerfs, oh boy....
My character Tsin'xing
I assume you mean addressing my post, though your last line I wasn't entirely clear on. That said if you want to address any point in my post your welcome to, I stand by it. But if you don't mind I don't know who's post you meant there.
I just found the whole interview with Geko, a bit weird. I mean outside of the usual rubbish it didn't actually sound like Geko talking, it was almost as if he was talking of a script a bit, which I found very unusual because he usually talks more smoothly, it's kinda hard to explain. Either way I feel a lot of what Geko said was out of whack with what is actually the case right now, and I just don't feel that the community was represented as well as it could be.
Now Elijah says he'd like people to help, and fair enough. However if one was to help out I'd have to ask what the scope is on turning this boat around. Someone wanting to do that would need the leeway to work, and regardless of what is said, if you say you represent the community, volunteer or not, you by default make yourself accountable to them. It's the same in real situations.
Do I think P1 could be turned around and made more acceptable to the players? I think so, but it would require some open-mindedness and some effort, but like I said most research really doesn't take long at all.
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That's fine.
At this point it seems to have become clear Elijah isn't interested in having a serious discussion, so frankly unless he does I'll just assume his point about wanting help to make P1 better is just another case of lots of words and no intention.
Honestly, if I felt like it would be genuinely be taken seriously I'd offer a solution, but more recently I do feel no one cares, everyone ignores posts that have any ounce of sense in them in favour of their own opinion, which I might add they never care to back up themselves. It also stinks of hypocrisy when you offer valid points to someone demanding them and they outright ignore them, happens a lot...
People who can't post with self control don't deserve consideration ever. People who are abused shouldn't have to grow a thicker skin, its the abusers who should be tossed aside like the trash they are.
So, what did you have in mind?
My character Tsin'xing
Community leader has to, obviously, deal with what is going on in the community period.
What you are doing is trying to write the news for someone outside the community who PROFIT on the expense of the community.
So I don't think it's far fetched to call you a sell-out at all.
I'd like to dare you to start using steam so people can see the amount of hours in-game you are not logging.
I am pretty convinced you don't play the game at all - and that's one reason it's so easy to sell out because any negative changes to the game has zero influence on you.
Your gameplay is running the podcast and developer-like dreams of worship you seek out.
So, Priority One supposedly has access to the Devs that they are somehow obligated to use to be a bully pulpit for the forum community?
If it's so easy to do that, why not go start your own podcast?
Oh. Right. You don't have access to the Devs to lend legitimacy to whatever you choose to rant about. So you expect Priority One to do that on your behalf.
People, this is entertainment. It's not supposed to be journalism. I've listened to podcasts where they've expressed things that they did and didn't like about the game. But you can't expect them to have Geko on the show and try to conduct a hostile interview. They don't have that kind of clout. The first time they do that will be the last time they get a Dev interview.
As someone else pointed out, the podcasts do get the Devs talking about behind the scenes stuff that we'd never hear otherwise. THAT is their community service.
I haven't listened to it (this particular installment) myself. Maybe I should to understand what all the uproar is about, but I simply don't have a couple of hours to spend on it... one of the reasons why I don't listen much anymore.
Fact is, I don't need to listen to it to understand that certain people are not engaging in reasoned debate about it. And the insulting posts and the baiting posts are going to stop one way or the other.
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I have legitimately been having fun with the "Snorg" invasions.
My reflection after the first day was something like, "Why didn't Kobali have something like this?" (It would have fit the World War 1 trench warfare motif really well - attacking in waves; "Over the Walls".)
I don't think that anyone is asking them to conduct a hostile interview or asking them not to mention the things that they like or don't like. The concern that I and others have with the interviews is that sometimes they ask a question and it gets completely dodged or twisted into something else. And it never gets questioned. Obviously there are things that the devs can't talk about, but I don't think that it would ruin their relationship if P1 maybe pointed it out when it happened.
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Where are you getting all this from?! Because he doesn't cater to your 'suggestions'? Far as I see it, the guy doesn't owe us anything. He runs a podcast, for free, probably hoping people will enjoy it. But, silly him, he wants us to bring things to the table that are constructive and usable for the show. How dare he!
Let me spell it out for you: Geko and the other Devs show up because they want to. Elijah isn't a world-famed reporter, with the eyes and the cameras of the world on him and his interviews. He's having his guests at Cryptic's suffrance. There can never be an interrogation, or a third degree cross-examination of whatever Dev you like to see grilled to tell 'The Truth.' He's still asking the questions. But when Geko decides to side-step the issue, there's little to be done, really. Or he could put on the screws, and realize he just did his last podcast. There's no inbetween. Personally, I think Elijah is striking the right balance between voicing concerns and not ticking the Devs off.
Would I personally like to rake Geko over the coals, for instance, over why the queues are really empty? Of course I would! But why is it so difficult for people to grasp that you can't run a podcast like that?! We often 'demand' answers from the Devs here too; and you could argue that Cryptic owes his customers at least *some* explanations, every now and then. But Elijah and his team don't even hold that over Cryptic.
If you're frustrated with the Devs' answers -- I know I often am -- ask them right here on this forum! But don't go badger Elijah and his team for not eing tough-nose towards their guests. Personally, I love the show. And even evasive answers are still informative (if, for nothing else, because the question is being evaded).
I consider Elijah a reporter in the most native sense of the word: as someone reporting on how Devs tend to think (by lettting them speak). And then I'll judge those words for myself. Or not at all. But I'm invariably getting a lot out of the podcast, one way or the other.
I would be okay with this being entertainment and not journalism if communication from the development team was just as comprehensive on the forums than the communication allegedely in podcasts.
It should not have to be journalism. But just like the Daily Show or the Colbert Report, sometimes it becomes journalism by accident, even if it was at first just entertainment.
This is exactly why people have a problem with this, and if they do not have a problem with it, it is the reason why they should.
When you start getting involved in forum dialogue from posters who are citing quotes made in podcasts, but not made anywhere else, maybe you can see why there is an uproar.
The fact is, things said on podcasts -- for better or for worse, has become a form of ammunition, just as easily as forum posts or twitter posts.
And just like forum posts or twitter posts, podcasts are not a sacred cow and just as easily held to scrutiny, regardless of their volunteer status.
Good.
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This I agree with. But there's too much baiting going on in this particular thread and too many insults being thrown around.
Angry people I can understand. Complaints about the game? No problem. But fighting over the podcast, not cool. If people don't like the podcast, then they should stop listening. Or go complain on the podcast's site. We have enough trouble keeping the peace around here.
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They are valid concerns and in the P1 podcast it would be remiss not to address these concerns. There are indeed ways to put these concerns without saying things like "Geko why did you lie to us about all the DR nerfs..." indeed that would be imprudent, but formulating a way to ask the questions and extract a meaningful answer would go a long way to assist the dev's claims of more engagement with the community.
The only reason the OP is getting so much flak is it's about the only avenue left to contact the Dev's directly. There is barely any contact on the forums, with only one or two regulars in the Bugs section and of course Tacofangs
Diktat's from D'Angelo and Geko aren't something that are accepted as good form after the recent releases, mostly because of the double speak and the attempts to treat players as the enemy. They may not have had that intention, but it certainly came across that way.
As for why people continue to rail against the dev's, well it's more than likely because they have enjoyed their time with the game somewhat and with the current changes which are so stark and so extreme, it's rendered one of their hobbies almost pointless, something they've invested a lot of time and in some cases a lot of money to enjoy. Not everyone is willing to throw in the towel just because of some crazy rule changes, most leave, some fight to correct the wrongdoing. Formula 1 did the same thing for 2014, it added Double Points to the last race of the season. Unilaterally the fans and teams hated the decision. The rules stayed active until the end of the season and have been removed for next year due to public backlash. Most of the arguments weren't phrased with Moderator friendly comments...
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
True , there were some who did that , but remember that that was in the days when several podcasts published interviews that included questions from the fans (who were credited) , plus there were the "Captains Logs" at Massively (better under Brandon , much worse but at times still ok under Terrilyn) , plus Stahl also took questions from the forums in a monthly / bi-monthly segment .
Point is , if there was a question , it was going to be either asked or at least looked at .
Second point -- my-my how far we've fallen ... , in terms of interaction .
The former is your opinion , and I agree with the latter .
Also agreed .
But the post I was answering to asked a simple question : how can we make things better ?
I went in my mind to the times I have classified as "better" , and since option A (bring back the original STOked) was not on the table , nor was the supposed promise that in exchange for the monthly questions to Dsthal / D'Angelo we could ask for Devs to write Blogs on topics we were interested in hearing about more -- thus , I wrote down the third option -- community questions @ P1 .
It's not my preferred venue either , because as I added in my caveat , I am concerned about the questions not being asked as they were but rephrased and thus made useless , but there you go .
I did my monthly positive post . :P
My character Tsin'xing
He's done more damage to the game just by opening his mouth, than Delta Rising could ever do.
That's just my personal opinion, but one would be hard pressed to discredit this fact.
P1 is in a no win situation, and the only way they could get out of it, is too not have the higher-ups from Cryptic appear on the show.
(something I'm sure they would rather not do)
Perhaps a short epilogue to the show could be done to vet a bit of any opposing opinions in a cordial way.
Something that would not involve the guest-of-the-day, but could delve a bit deeper into the topic at hand.
Or even have a shortened episode that puts rational viewpoints out there for folks to consider.
(any viewpoint would be valid, as long as it is cordial and meaningful to the game)
That was one of the most interesting things about the original STOked podcasts, Jeremy and Chris rarely disagreed on the topic at hand but even so, one would usually take the opposing view and try to flesh it out so everybody watching would understand why folks disagreed.
They also had great chemistry together and wonderful video presence.
It was a sad day when they broadcast their last show together.
(even though we ended up getting a really great knowledgeable DEV out of it)
:cool:
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Oh my goodness...that is a fascinating idea for Kobali.
Though I'm curious, do you feel it's really WWI or WWII that the Kobali battlefield resembles most? At least personally I thought that the behavior and even Vaadwaur aesthetics leaned towards WWII.
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I can appreciate what the podcasters are doing and they are providing useful information in itself, but it simply is not a journalistic enterprise and since they have no greater means of forcing developer cooperation than us, if we expect them to act like journalists we may end up losing what useful information they can give us .
We definitely won't be hearing any sort of explanation in the Priority One podcasts. What a wasted opportunity.
Free Tibet!
Exactly. You don't have to go all Jeremy Paxman on someone, and he has had some just walk off in a huff on live TV. Even hearing a bit of gentle prodding would likely make more people happy instead of what sounds like lip service in fear of being left out in the cold. It would be "atleast they tried it was the devs who were being evasive".