I'm sorry -- who said that? I don't remember saying that the forum community does not have legitimate concerns. What I have said is that it can be a full-time job to sift through unmitigated hatred to find the diamonds in the rough.
Now, before anyone challenges me and replies with something like, "Well, if you can't spend the time to read these forums, then you shouldn't be podcasting about the game" -- To you, I say... Join the team and help us improve. Become that volunteer member that helps the volunteer hosts.
This is a global community, my friends. I don't get paid to Community Manage.... wait a second... I don't even get paid to podcast! The audio editors don't get paid to spend their weekends editing the show. The graphic artist doesn't get paid for their creative talents. The bloggers don't get paid for expressing their thoughts. Heck, even the lawyer doesn't get paid to make sure we're making smart (legal) business decisions.
So -- If anyone is interested in consulting more directly with me and the team -- It is very easy to reach me.
ive listened to a few podcasts..........not impressed either...basically you put everything game related in its best possible light and ignor the opposing side of the debate...and ignor game crippling problems if those problems are Dev related
Example devs calling players cheaters and exploiters on the forums.....what did your pod cast say about that ?.............how about devs saying the old elite stfs would not be changed with DR ? yet they were and drastically..............How about the Galaxy class thread how it was crushed and the players slaped around when the thread was closed the ship laffingly upgraded...what did you say ? omg th ship model wasn't even fixed!
This is what I mean and these are only a few examples there are many more you avoid like the plague
you probably do this to get cryptic employees to come to your show
If you related the truth about game issues those guests would not come to your show
So it would be a utter waste of our time to come to your team and join it because the issue of the day will be swept under the rug to keep cryptic happy and sing everything is awesome in chorus with you and your team
Its hard to get behind something that doesn't support you
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Elijahmre - you may not have explicitly said it, but your posts have implied it. Including the one where you ask another member why they log on if all they do is complain in the forum.
Saying that is hard to find "diamonds in the rough" is also hard to swallow. Every other thread is an opinion of what is wrong with the game, often accompanied by well thought out details and even ways for improvement.
I will say it again you are entitled to your opinion, and you can do whatever makes you and your team happy with your podcast. However if all you do is continue to broadcast that everything is great look at the new shiny thing we are getting, don't be surprised to see more negative posts about your podcast.
I'm sorry -- who said that? I don't remember saying that the forum community does not have legitimate concerns. What I have said is that it can be a full-time job to sift through unmitigated hatred to find the diamonds in the rough.
Now, before anyone challenges me and replies with something like, "Well, if you can't spend the time to read these forums, then you shouldn't be podcasting about the game" -- To you, I say... Join the team and help us improve. Become that volunteer member that helps the volunteer hosts.
This is a global community, my friends. I don't get paid to Community Manage.... wait a second... I don't even get paid to podcast! The audio editors don't get paid to spend their weekends editing the show. The graphic artist doesn't get paid for their creative talents. The bloggers don't get paid for expressing their thoughts. Heck, even the lawyer doesn't get paid to make sure we're making smart (legal) business decisions.
So -- If anyone is interested in consulting more directly with me and the team -- It is very easy to reach me.
I appreciate you doing everything for free. I also appreciate why you can't be aware of everything. Nevertheless, there are some very legitimate concerns (enpty queues, exorbitant upgrade cost, loadouts) that, even when addressed, still end on an 'Everything is awsesome!' note. Can't even say I blame you guys for that, as Devs won't return when the hard questions are pushed too hard.
So, while I set out to be supportive, yet wanting to voice some mild critique, in all honesty, I'm not really sure I could do a show like that myself, the way I really wanted to, and still expect to see the Devs return. Ultimately, I realize you guys actually *do* ask the hard questions, but you're simply not getting enough satisfactory answers on them. The answer to why the queues are empty was such an unsatisfactory answer, for example. But not really your fault.
So, Kudos to you for making the show. And here's to hoping continued communication with the Devs will improve matters!
Nope. That's not what I'm saying at all. But, I think a majority of people are more inclined to engage with others who can construct a concept without immediately jumping to belittling, demeaning, or questioning the intelligence of the other person. Like your comment above.
An argument that contains an insult is still an argument. You don't get to discard or ignore hard numbers and facts as ad hominems just because the other guy insulted your mother while they were posting them. Grow a thicker skin and answer the question as posed.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't think you really read what I wrote. I clearly was not titling myself a community leader.
I'm not blaming anyone. Again -- if you read more carefully -- you would see that I'm asking for help.
You didn't title yourself as a 'community leader',but you do see yourself as being above the rest of the community.
And not blaming anyone?Really? Every single time someone brings up a legitimate complaint,your excuse for not bringing it up during an interview with Cryptic's minions is 'it's not constructive'.
You avoid all the issues,all the questions people want answered....and you want our help?Help with what?Help with identifying more issues to ignore,more questions to avoid?
The PWE/Cryptic sweatshop...not where the game is made,but where the game is played!
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
Soon people will be deciding the same thing about your podcast.
that's a pretty wiled claim there...
and wiled claims are the ones that tend to get ignored... just saying...
Also look at how the argument between elijahmre, vestereng, stoleviathan99, and gulberat went down in the first few pages. That's a great example of how a good argument should go.
Oh, I do work for the community. I work for the community that dialogues respectfully and conscientiously. I work for the community that wants to engage in constructive dialogue.
Sadly, if you look through history (or even these boards and release notes) change doesn't swoop in on respectful dialog, conscientious dialog, or constructive dialog. Those things only appear after the pitchforks and torches (in our case metaphorical thankfully).
To ignore people's gripes about the system just because you personally don't like the way they worded them is pretty elitist... an attitude that will turn the pitchforks and torches ever more in your direction. Statements like that just make the angriest folks see you as nothing but part of the problem.
Next podcast try something new: pick a topic where the community has raised concerns. Ask about it respectfully. And maybe one of the crew can also snort disbelievingly when the resultant answer is an evasion, distortion, or outright lie*. Or maybe, just maybe you'll get an honest answer like you did with Jesse Heinig when he said there were things that just weren't fun or that they new the upgrade system was a mess.
*Anyone able to parse double speak knew that the XP nerf that wasn't a nerf was in reality a nerf... no matter how many people tried to say things would stay the same. Nerf may be too polite of a term. They cut XP off at the navel.
ive listened to a few podcasts..........not impressed either...basically you put everything game related in its best possible light and ignor the opposing side of the debate...and ignor game crippling problems if those problems are Dev related
Maybe because he's not convinced that they're "crippling problems". Maybe. I don't know.
Saying that is hard to find "diamonds in the rough" is also hard to swallow. Every other thread is an opinion of what is wrong with the game, often accompanied by well thought out details and even ways for improvement.
Complaining is easy to do, it isn't nearly as productive as constructive criticism, and there's a ton of it going on in this forum right now. There could very well be sufficient amounts of well thought-out details, but I agree with Elijah there. There's so much mindless complaints that a lot of us that don't share the same views as the complaints don't think it's worth taking the time going through.
An argument that contains an insult is still an argument. You don't get to discard or ignore hard numbers and facts as ad hominems just because the other guy insulted your mother while they were posting them. Grow a thicker skin and answer the question as posed.
If the argument fails to be addressed because the reader stopped at the insult, it's not the reader's fault for not addressing it. If you(as in anyone applicable) want to be taken seriously, act like an adult that wants to be taken seriously.
Sadly, if you look through history (or even these boards and release notes) change doesn't swoop in on respectful dialog, conscientious dialog, or constructive dialog. Those things only appear after the pitchforks and torches (in our case metaphorical thankfully).
That claim is patently wrong. There are many examples of things being implemented because of peaceful, straightforward constructive criticism and suggestions.
Everyone, chill out and back off. Elijah is offering anyone that wants to be heard a chance to be heard. On his very podcast, no less. Someone be reasonable and take him up on his offer instead of cherry-pick or strawman reasons to antagonize him. I don't care how 'desperate' you're claiming to be, this is a game, and games are not good reasons to hate on each other.
Ahhh. orangitis... One of Cryptic's strongest most adamant defenders, is back on duty.
Don't bother arguing with him folks. He doesn't argue. He simply denies. Facts, consequences, observable behaviors. None of it happens because he says it doesn't.
This is true in several threads, by the way. He's been a problem denyer for a while now.
Ahhh. orangitis... One of Cryptic's strongest most adamant defenders, is back on duty.
Don't bother arguing with him folks. He doesn't argue. He simply denies. Facts, consequences, observable behaviors. None of it happens because he says it doesn't.
This is true in several threads, by the way. He's been a problem denyer for a while now.
If you have a problem with me, say it to me. You've been doing nothing but trolling, not offering an ounce of constructive input. You don't have a good argument at all, or you'd have put it up. Oh, what's that? You think I'd just ignore it or dismiss it? That's no excuse. Your childish baiting does nothing but make your look weak. If you think there's such a big problem, lay it on me or STFU. But you do NOT talk about me like I'm not even there.
If you have a problem with me, say it to me. You've been doing nothing but trolling, not offering an ounce of constructive input. You don't have a good argument at all, or you'd have put it up. Oh, what's that? You think I'd just ignore it or dismiss it? That's no excuse. Your childish baiting does nothing but make your look weak. If you think there's such a big problem, lay it on me or STFU. But you do NOT talk about me like I'm not even there.
You've just described yourself perfectly. THAT is my problem with you.
If P1 didn't temper their criticisms of Cryptic, they wouldn't get all the interviews and insider access. That sort of access, in turn, diminishes the critical eye that a more unbiased and unattached player would approach the game with.
I understand the need to play ball with the powers that be in a pragmatic sense, but it's a dangerous game to play when you get too sucked in by the overarching rhetoric of the institution.
That goes the same for any relationship between press and power. It's neither new or unusual.
While I do wish P1 could be more adversarial, they do a good job bringing us access to the process. I guess I just wish that Cryptic wasn't so intimidated by critics... podcast UGC used to be good for that, but they don't seem to get much inside access anymore.
You've just described yourself perfectly. THAT is my problem with you.
No, you don't get to make excuses like that. I try my damnedest to follow truth, and to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And I encourage everyone to speak up to me if they see me do something stupid, because I do not want to stupid things, and if I do stupid things, I want to know about them. You are just making an excuse to antagonize me. You have no good reason at all not to be civil and approach me like an adult. Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
but what does all this have to do with this thread?
It means don't bother trying to argue logically with him, using points, details, facts. He simply won't hear it. He's a White Knight (TM, Patent Pending) in every thread on this forum. How it helps this situation: Don't feed the troll. Let him die. He isn't helping the issue and you're only hurting it by engaging him.
If the argument fails to be addressed because the reader stopped at the insult, it's not the reader's fault for not addressing it.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is the reader's fault. If you want to have a business presence on the Internet (or any presence on the Internet at all, really), you've got to get used to the fact that people aren't always going to be interested in blowing sunshine up your TRIBBLE. And that means not ignoring valid criticism just because it was delivered in a sarcastic or insulting tone.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It means don't bother trying to argue logically with him, using points, details, facts. He simply won't hear it. He's a White Knight (TM, Patent Pending) in every thread on this forum. How it helps this situation: Don't feed the troll. Let him die. He isn't helping the issue and you're only hurting it by engaging him.
You know that's BS. I try to be the most rational, logical, and above all, reasonable person that I can be. Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is the reader's fault. If you want to have a business presence on the Internet (or any presence on the Internet at all, really), you've got to get used to the fact that people aren't always going to be interested in blowing sunshine up your TRIBBLE. And that means not ignoring valid criticism just because it was delivered in a sarcastic or insulting tone.
'Getting used to' bad behavior only encourages bad behavior to continue, and it only makes things worse for the people that have to read it.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is the reader's fault. If you want to have a business presence on the Internet (or any presence on the Internet at all, really), you've got to get used to the fact that people aren't always going to be interested in blowing sunshine up your TRIBBLE. And that means not ignoring valid criticism just because it was delivered in a sarcastic or insulting tone.
So you're saying I can say whatever I want to you, no matter how awful and untrue it is, and it would be your fault if you get offended?
Back on topic: elijahmre, is asking for help and there have been a few outstanding posts but I think a lot of the others have greatly missed the point.
So you're saying I can say whatever I want to you, no matter how awful and untrue it is, and it would be your fault if you get offended?
No, what I'm saying is that the insult does not invalidate the argument. If I say "Don't listen to Bob. He's a pretentious *sshole," that's an ad hominem and you can ignore it. If I say "Don't listen to that pretentious *sshole Bob because his arguments are completely wrong in x, y, and z ways," that's insulting but valid.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is the reader's fault. If you want to have a business presence on the Internet (or any presence on the Internet at all, really), you've got to get used to the fact that people aren't always going to be interested in blowing sunshine up your TRIBBLE. And that means not ignoring valid criticism just because it was delivered in a sarcastic or insulting tone.
Honestly, I think you guys are throwing weird, petulant, faux self-entitled 'We can be as foul-mouthed as we want, because we're customers!' tantrums here, and you're really being incredibly rude to Elijah. And actually for no valid reason at all.
The guy is trying to run a show, that he hopes many will enjoy. He simply can't grill Geko the way you'd want him to. Because, unlike you, he has to consider the *next* show as well. So, any questions levied at the Devs will simply have to be constructive, and in the spirit of pleasant cooperation. That is just a given.
So, just listen to his podcasts, enjoy; take from it what you deem worth taking, and with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.
but what does all this have to do with this thread?
Absolutely nothing. personal arguments have no place in this discussion. they're petty and stupid and serve no other purpose than to derail the topic.
Back to the Topic;
Listening to the podcast one can't help but feel one is listening to a lengthy game advertisement, it doesn't give the impression of being unbiased nor can it seriously be considered representative of the entire community.
Now they can ask for help getting a clearer perspective of that community, but would there be any merit in that? Considering the tone of these podcasts, it's not hard to imagine that questions for developers are vetted ahead of time so that they are never asked anything undesirable. If that is what is actually happening what would be the point of anyone volunteering to help?
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
So why not avoid the useless problem of having your argument derailed by complaints of ad hominim, and clean up your style?
Because I'm naturally a straight shooter. I say what I mean; I don't dress it up in sugar and smiles unless a paycheck depends on me doing it. And in this case being nice results in exactly the same silence and/or evasions and outright lies as being sarcastic, so why bother doing what doesn't come naturally?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Because I'm naturally a straight shooter. I say what I mean; I don't dress it up in sugar and smiles unless a paycheck depends on me doing it. And in this case being nice results in exactly the same silence and/or evasions and outright lies as being sarcastic, so why bother doing what doesn't come naturally?
There's 1 major flaw in your logic. Namely, that Elijah is not obligated to listen to you. If you want people to listen to you, you don't even have to be nice: just neutral suffices. Ultimately, you're doing yourself a favor, really.
Because I'm naturally a straight shooter. I say what I mean; I don't dress it up in sugar and smiles unless a paycheck depends on me doing it. And in this case being nice results in exactly the same silence and/or evasions and outright lies as being sarcastic, so why bother doing what doesn't come naturally?
To be considerate, and to understand why you should have tact. To want improved communication skills and social ability. To paraphrase an old saying, "you get more with honey than you do with vinegar". Add to the fact that, if you aren't a complete sociopath, it would be beneficial to others around you, and in return your future interactions with them, to consider how your actions affect others via empathy.
I'm not one to discourage people from being themselves, but there's a time and a place for everything. And in order to convince someone of something, or even to listen to what you have to say, it would be a good idea to consider how your words will effect that interaction.
Absolutely nothing. personal arguments have no place in this discussion. they're petty and stupid and serve no other purpose than to derail the topic.
Back to the Topic;
Listening to the podcast one can't help but feel one is listening to a lengthy game advertisement, it doesn't give the impression of being unbiased nor can it seriously be considered representative of the entire community.
Now they can ask for help getting a clearer perspective of that community, but would there be any merit in that? Considering the tone of these podcasts, it's not hard to imagine that questions for developers are vetted ahead of time so that they are never asked anything undesirable. If that is what is actually happening what would be the point of anyone volunteering to help?
I think the difference would be that rather than engaging in these one sided dialogues where an interviewee specifically brings up the forums and says, "I don't know what they're talking about", instead of saying, "Yeah, they seem nuts to me too", elijah could respond with a correct summation of "what they're talking about."
My observation is that whether the questions are pre-vetted or not, certain interviewees use the platform of an interview to take shots at part of the community (and have a history of doing this) and if the dev is going to start this, it's frustrating for the podcaster, who claims to be a community representative, to shrug and agree.
I think Elijah means very well. I think he and other podcasters (including mav and Terilynn and havraha) have tried to do a good job. I think certain devs (mainly just one) have a tendency to use interviews to drag the forums into this and the podcasters, having little knowledge of the substansive issues, get poisoned on valid complaints. And that said dev knows he's doing this and is using interviews as a bully pulpit to troll the forums.
Then by the time the podcaster seeks out the forums, we're whipped up into enough of a frenzy that it's easy to dismiss us.
I suggest Gulberat as a good one to talk to because he's managed pointed and insightful criticisms that seem to resist efforts to troll him.
Whereas I freely admit I am trolling prone and treat it the way Marty McFly treats being called chicken in Back to the Future party II and that's on a good day. I'd be all for a forum where feeding and flaming trolls was permissible. I think, legitimately, the internet would be a better place if people escalated with trolls, not de-escalated (so long as no physical threats are made), and that there is growing expert and academic consensus to support the idea that trolls should be fed and fought with until they surrender. I also recognize that isn't the policy here and see it as a shortcoming of the boards that winds up appealing to a pro-troll false balance since it allows artful trolls to maneuver people they want to silence into moderation and flame threads to get them closed, silencing dissenting views.
Comments
ive listened to a few podcasts..........not impressed either...basically you put everything game related in its best possible light and ignor the opposing side of the debate...and ignor game crippling problems if those problems are Dev related
Example devs calling players cheaters and exploiters on the forums.....what did your pod cast say about that ?.............how about devs saying the old elite stfs would not be changed with DR ? yet they were and drastically..............How about the Galaxy class thread how it was crushed and the players slaped around when the thread was closed the ship laffingly upgraded...what did you say ? omg th ship model wasn't even fixed!
This is what I mean and these are only a few examples there are many more you avoid like the plague
you probably do this to get cryptic employees to come to your show
If you related the truth about game issues those guests would not come to your show
So it would be a utter waste of our time to come to your team and join it because the issue of the day will be swept under the rug to keep cryptic happy and sing everything is awesome in chorus with you and your team
Its hard to get behind something that doesn't support you
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Saying that is hard to find "diamonds in the rough" is also hard to swallow. Every other thread is an opinion of what is wrong with the game, often accompanied by well thought out details and even ways for improvement.
I will say it again you are entitled to your opinion, and you can do whatever makes you and your team happy with your podcast. However if all you do is continue to broadcast that everything is great look at the new shiny thing we are getting, don't be surprised to see more negative posts about your podcast.
I appreciate you doing everything for free. I also appreciate why you can't be aware of everything. Nevertheless, there are some very legitimate concerns (enpty queues, exorbitant upgrade cost, loadouts) that, even when addressed, still end on an 'Everything is awsesome!' note. Can't even say I blame you guys for that, as Devs won't return when the hard questions are pushed too hard.
So, while I set out to be supportive, yet wanting to voice some mild critique, in all honesty, I'm not really sure I could do a show like that myself, the way I really wanted to, and still expect to see the Devs return. Ultimately, I realize you guys actually *do* ask the hard questions, but you're simply not getting enough satisfactory answers on them. The answer to why the queues are empty was such an unsatisfactory answer, for example. But not really your fault.
So, Kudos to you for making the show. And here's to hoping continued communication with the Devs will improve matters!
I will never EVER talk to any of you people again.
An argument that contains an insult is still an argument. You don't get to discard or ignore hard numbers and facts as ad hominems just because the other guy insulted your mother while they were posting them. Grow a thicker skin and answer the question as posed.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You didn't title yourself as a 'community leader',but you do see yourself as being above the rest of the community.
And not blaming anyone?Really? Every single time someone brings up a legitimate complaint,your excuse for not bringing it up during an interview with Cryptic's minions is 'it's not constructive'.
You avoid all the issues,all the questions people want answered....and you want our help?Help with what?Help with identifying more issues to ignore,more questions to avoid?
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
Soon people will be deciding the same thing about your podcast.
Free Tibet!
that's a pretty wiled claim there...
and wiled claims are the ones that tend to get ignored... just saying...
Also look at how the argument between elijahmre, vestereng, stoleviathan99, and gulberat went down in the first few pages. That's a great example of how a good argument should go.
Sadly, if you look through history (or even these boards and release notes) change doesn't swoop in on respectful dialog, conscientious dialog, or constructive dialog. Those things only appear after the pitchforks and torches (in our case metaphorical thankfully).
To ignore people's gripes about the system just because you personally don't like the way they worded them is pretty elitist... an attitude that will turn the pitchforks and torches ever more in your direction. Statements like that just make the angriest folks see you as nothing but part of the problem.
Next podcast try something new: pick a topic where the community has raised concerns. Ask about it respectfully. And maybe one of the crew can also snort disbelievingly when the resultant answer is an evasion, distortion, or outright lie*. Or maybe, just maybe you'll get an honest answer like you did with Jesse Heinig when he said there were things that just weren't fun or that they new the upgrade system was a mess.
*Anyone able to parse double speak knew that the XP nerf that wasn't a nerf was in reality a nerf... no matter how many people tried to say things would stay the same. Nerf may be too polite of a term. They cut XP off at the navel.
Maybe because he's not convinced that they're "crippling problems". Maybe. I don't know.
Complaining is easy to do, it isn't nearly as productive as constructive criticism, and there's a ton of it going on in this forum right now. There could very well be sufficient amounts of well thought-out details, but I agree with Elijah there. There's so much mindless complaints that a lot of us that don't share the same views as the complaints don't think it's worth taking the time going through.
If the argument fails to be addressed because the reader stopped at the insult, it's not the reader's fault for not addressing it. If you(as in anyone applicable) want to be taken seriously, act like an adult that wants to be taken seriously.
Where are you getting that? I've never seen him say anything like that. At all.
That claim is patently wrong. There are many examples of things being implemented because of peaceful, straightforward constructive criticism and suggestions.
Everyone, chill out and back off. Elijah is offering anyone that wants to be heard a chance to be heard. On his very podcast, no less. Someone be reasonable and take him up on his offer instead of cherry-pick or strawman reasons to antagonize him. I don't care how 'desperate' you're claiming to be, this is a game, and games are not good reasons to hate on each other.
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This is entirely intentional to keep performance reasonable.
Don't bother arguing with him folks. He doesn't argue. He simply denies. Facts, consequences, observable behaviors. None of it happens because he says it doesn't.
This is true in several threads, by the way. He's been a problem denyer for a while now.
If you have a problem with me, say it to me. You've been doing nothing but trolling, not offering an ounce of constructive input. You don't have a good argument at all, or you'd have put it up. Oh, what's that? You think I'd just ignore it or dismiss it? That's no excuse. Your childish baiting does nothing but make your look weak. If you think there's such a big problem, lay it on me or STFU. But you do NOT talk about me like I'm not even there.
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You've just described yourself perfectly. THAT is my problem with you.
I understand the need to play ball with the powers that be in a pragmatic sense, but it's a dangerous game to play when you get too sucked in by the overarching rhetoric of the institution.
That goes the same for any relationship between press and power. It's neither new or unusual.
While I do wish P1 could be more adversarial, they do a good job bringing us access to the process. I guess I just wish that Cryptic wasn't so intimidated by critics... podcast UGC used to be good for that, but they don't seem to get much inside access anymore.
but what does all this have to do with this thread?
Now what exactly is your beef with my position?
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It means don't bother trying to argue logically with him, using points, details, facts. He simply won't hear it. He's a White Knight (TM, Patent Pending) in every thread on this forum. How it helps this situation: Don't feed the troll. Let him die. He isn't helping the issue and you're only hurting it by engaging him.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is the reader's fault. If you want to have a business presence on the Internet (or any presence on the Internet at all, really), you've got to get used to the fact that people aren't always going to be interested in blowing sunshine up your TRIBBLE. And that means not ignoring valid criticism just because it was delivered in a sarcastic or insulting tone.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You know that I'm another human being, right?
'Getting used to' bad behavior only encourages bad behavior to continue, and it only makes things worse for the people that have to read it.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
So you're saying I can say whatever I want to you, no matter how awful and untrue it is, and it would be your fault if you get offended?
Back on topic: elijahmre, is asking for help and there have been a few outstanding posts but I think a lot of the others have greatly missed the point.
Venting at P1 =/= Venting at Cryptic.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ad hominim does not invalidate accompanying arguments, but it makes it very easy to overlook them.
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Honestly, I think you guys are throwing weird, petulant, faux self-entitled 'We can be as foul-mouthed as we want, because we're customers!' tantrums here, and you're really being incredibly rude to Elijah. And actually for no valid reason at all.
The guy is trying to run a show, that he hopes many will enjoy. He simply can't grill Geko the way you'd want him to. Because, unlike you, he has to consider the *next* show as well. So, any questions levied at the Devs will simply have to be constructive, and in the spirit of pleasant cooperation. That is just a given.
So, just listen to his podcasts, enjoy; take from it what you deem worth taking, and with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.
Back to the Topic;
Listening to the podcast one can't help but feel one is listening to a lengthy game advertisement, it doesn't give the impression of being unbiased nor can it seriously be considered representative of the entire community.
Now they can ask for help getting a clearer perspective of that community, but would there be any merit in that? Considering the tone of these podcasts, it's not hard to imagine that questions for developers are vetted ahead of time so that they are never asked anything undesirable. If that is what is actually happening what would be the point of anyone volunteering to help?
Because I'm naturally a straight shooter. I say what I mean; I don't dress it up in sugar and smiles unless a paycheck depends on me doing it. And in this case being nice results in exactly the same silence and/or evasions and outright lies as being sarcastic, so why bother doing what doesn't come naturally?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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There's 1 major flaw in your logic. Namely, that Elijah is not obligated to listen to you. If you want people to listen to you, you don't even have to be nice: just neutral suffices. Ultimately, you're doing yourself a favor, really.
I'm not one to discourage people from being themselves, but there's a time and a place for everything. And in order to convince someone of something, or even to listen to what you have to say, it would be a good idea to consider how your words will effect that interaction.
I hope I 'splained that coherently.
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I think the difference would be that rather than engaging in these one sided dialogues where an interviewee specifically brings up the forums and says, "I don't know what they're talking about", instead of saying, "Yeah, they seem nuts to me too", elijah could respond with a correct summation of "what they're talking about."
My observation is that whether the questions are pre-vetted or not, certain interviewees use the platform of an interview to take shots at part of the community (and have a history of doing this) and if the dev is going to start this, it's frustrating for the podcaster, who claims to be a community representative, to shrug and agree.
I think Elijah means very well. I think he and other podcasters (including mav and Terilynn and havraha) have tried to do a good job. I think certain devs (mainly just one) have a tendency to use interviews to drag the forums into this and the podcasters, having little knowledge of the substansive issues, get poisoned on valid complaints. And that said dev knows he's doing this and is using interviews as a bully pulpit to troll the forums.
Then by the time the podcaster seeks out the forums, we're whipped up into enough of a frenzy that it's easy to dismiss us.
I suggest Gulberat as a good one to talk to because he's managed pointed and insightful criticisms that seem to resist efforts to troll him.
Whereas I freely admit I am trolling prone and treat it the way Marty McFly treats being called chicken in Back to the Future party II and that's on a good day. I'd be all for a forum where feeding and flaming trolls was permissible. I think, legitimately, the internet would be a better place if people escalated with trolls, not de-escalated (so long as no physical threats are made), and that there is growing expert and academic consensus to support the idea that trolls should be fed and fought with until they surrender. I also recognize that isn't the policy here and see it as a shortcoming of the boards that winds up appealing to a pro-troll false balance since it allows artful trolls to maneuver people they want to silence into moderation and flame threads to get them closed, silencing dissenting views.