OK. Although I've explained repeatedly to you, I'll try one more time, in the simplest terms I can muster, in the off chance that somehow you're just not able to understand, instead of trolling:
Dyson Battlezone was, and is, considered exploitative. It is even more exploitative (according to the devs' definition, IE "stealing" dilithium) than what this debacle has been defined as being.
This has been going on for quite some time.
This has regularly been reported as exploitative.
This has been defined as "working as intended," and, thusly, not been changed, in any way.
This is what is commonly referred to as a "precedent."
Therefore, one can not assume one is knowingly exploiting or cheating, since precedent shows this is NOT exploitative.
And Dyson is just one such precedent, as others have been stated in this thread, and summarily ignored by you, because they do not suit your desire to insult players and/or blindly take the side of a very weakly worded developer explanation...thus leading to the obvious "dev apologist" moniker.
erm using dyson is not an exploit what is an exploit is certain um behaviours which go on in the zone regularly which I shall not name here because your not supposed to post such things on the message boards or make them public although its pretty widely known.
Not everyone exploits the zone some of us use it as its intended and capture the points on the map point by point and stay put until the point is captured and then move to the next point etc etc. Others on the other hand exploit the .. TRIBBLE out of the place. One day cryptic may do something about it until then for the moment in that instance they will continue on their path.
There are a few variations of "not intended" behaviour occuring in dyson but that doesnt mean that everyone does it. Such is the nature of exploits and people who may or may not have scruples that make it okay for them to exploit or not..
Just like the people who decided not to take part in exploitive behaviour in this case and those who did. Some saw the issue and did something else others chose to exploit. In this case cryptic decided to do something about it. Its their game they get to decide what is important to deal with and what is not. Meanwhile anyone who exploits at all in any zone is taking a chance.
Them not fixing the issues does not make it okay for people to exploit in dyson battle zone (or any other zone for that matter especially when you know its not intended) silence or them not working on something does not make it okay we are all responsible for our own behaviour.
It is not okay to exploit anywhere .. whether you get caught or not is a different matter. This is pretty basic stuff that anyone can understand.
At the end of all the xp gain, the end of the spec trees, lives level 110. After that point each refill of the xp bar awarded dilithum. Awarded, past tense, because they removed that with the Thursday patch. Seems to me that this really wasn't entirely xp gains based. Perhaps more indirectly related to xp and more directly related to the ability to gain that dilithium. While the two are tied together if they have slowed leveling to the bare crawl that they have then why remove the dil? Not to mention they have a bit of a history of immediately dealing with problems that could possibly have an affect on that good old profit line...much as this was immediately dealt with.
So Iamruined, this did have a lot to do with dilithium.
of course it had something to do with the dilithium
but since that reward at the end of the spec tree had been removed anyway... why punishing the players once more?
You are now showing who is truly ignorant here... I'm Australian, defen>c<e is the traditional English spelling, not the Americanised spelling of the word...
It's the same how American English supplants many S's with Z's (pronounced 'zed' btw)...
I was not actually aware that dilithium was rewarded once capping the Spec Tree...
Knowing this now, I can indeed see where sinn74 was going, albeit, still not a direct correlation between the underlying issues, I can however see the association now...
I didn't know, either. Naturally I was nowhere near having maxed out the Specialization tree yet.
What I find very indicative about this whole Dilithium side-issue, though, is that it goes to show how little thought they put into any of this. So, now they removed the Dilithium reward, after having 'fixed' the alleged bug, because, yes, why exactly?! Because ppl reached the threshold of where they could start reaping Dilithium? *boggle*
levelled 2 chars in japori exclusively.
levelled one char doing argala solo till 60, then dq episodes and some japori pugging.
pretty sure japori wasnt the problem since only one of my chars got punished,
and yes, it wasnt one that did run japori only.
it was more exp than cryptic expected, all they judged by.
clearly our fault not noticing what that sad excuse of a dev team didnt notice.
Hate to break it to you, but this is how any MMO operates... We are playing on their servers, with their permission which gives the owner of those servers the right to define what is right and wrong behaviour...
Cryptic has cited clearly what the issue was...
You may not agree with it, which is your right, but I'm afraid it's their right to police their servers as they see fit...
All I can really say to this is if you don't like it, stop playing as there really is no other option...
Well if they stated it clearly, how about you quote it. Frankly you are misunderstanding the exploit in question.
The exploit you think you are referring to is the 5x XP bug in the TD Patrol Missions, which was actually a global 5x XP for Elite setting across the board. That was WAI on Tribble and WAI on release as they failed to change the setting.
The actual exploit of TD Patrols was the downleveling to make the enemies cap out at lvl 50 but give level 60 rewards. Neither meimeitoo or guilli88 used or abused that exploit.
The Dev's have decided to label using Elite setting for missions/patrols an exploit. That is where the problem with the normal levellers getting their XP adjusted/removed occurs.
BTW I hate to break it to you that your arguments have been flawed since the start because you were ignorant of the actual causes and the resultant claims of the Dev's. This indeed has led you to make fallacious claims against other players and in doing so has highlighted the danger of misinformation as fact very well. According to D'Angelo's wisdom you should be rolled back to lvl 60 and lose spec points for this
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
levelled 2 chars in japori exclusively.
levelled one char doing argala solo till 60, then dq episodes and some japori pugging.
pretty sure japori wasnt the problem since only one of my chars got punished,
and yes, it wasnt one that did run japori only.
it was more exp than cryptic expected, all they judged by.
clearly our fault not noticing what that sad excuse of a dev team didnt notice.
Well if they stated it clearly, how about you quote it. Frankly you are misunderstanding the exploit in question.
The exploit you think you are referring to is the 5x XP bug in the TD Patrol Missions, which was actually a global 5x XP for Elite setting across the board. That was WAI on Tribble and WAI on release as they failed to change the setting.
The actual exploit of TD Patrols was the downleveling to make the enemies cap out at lvl 50 but give level 60 rewards. Neither meimeitoo or guilli88 used or abused that exploit.
The Dev's have decided to label using Elite setting for missions/patrols an exploit. That is where the problem with the normal levellers getting their XP adjusted/removed occurs.
BTW I hate to break it to you that your arguments have been flawed since the start because you were ignorant of the actual causes and the resultant claims of the Dev's. This indeed has led you to make fallacious claims against other players and in doing so has highlighted the danger of misinformation as fact very well. According to D'Angelo's wisdom you should be rolled back to lvl 60 and lose spec points for this
The only oversight I've made was being unaware that dilithium was rewarded when capping the Spec Tree... As I said previously, I was honestly unaware of this and can now see where sinn74 was going with their statements...
However.... I was aware of what the underlying mechanics of the issue were in relation to Tau Dewa and if you're going to make such an assertion otherwise, please cite the posts in question where I have clearly demonstrated I did not...
The actual exploit of TD Patrols was the downleveling to make the enemies cap out at lvl 50 but give level 60 rewards. Neither meimeitoo or guilli88 used or abused that exploit.
Thank you!
The Dev's have decided to label using Elite setting for missions/patrols an exploit. That is where the problem with the normal levellers getting their XP adjusted/removed occurs
And that, honestly, is ludicrous.
(PWE: "5x speed too slow?!?"
Power-levelers: "Yes, we're gonna have to go right to ludicrous speed!")
I didn't know, either. Naturally I was nowhere near having maxed out the Specialization tree yet.
What I find very indicative about this whole Dilithium side-issue, though, is that it goes to show how little thought they put into any of this. So, now they removed the Dilithium reward, after having 'fixed' the alleged bug, because, yes, why exactly?! Because ppl reached the threshold of where they could start reaping Dilithium? *boggle*
removing dil was just the second punishment for us dirty exploiters,
only this time it affects all.
(maybe third since sp nerf was a punishment too)
i doubt anyone could have botted sp dil rewards to reach more effectiveness than grinding voth ground battlezone.
I used Beta Thoridor myself. Pushed one up to level 55, swapped to an alt, pushed to 55, and repeated 6 more times. Then had an idea that perhaps ALL pre-DR content was like this since it was created for a max level of 50. Tried a few missions out towards DS9 and they were pretty much the same way.
as much as i love this clip it has nothing to do with this thread.
executive producers putting the blame on grinders to cover up their
own and their teams incompetence isnt a typical f2p feature, usually.
as much as i love this clip it has nothing to do with this thread.
executive producers putting the blame on grinders to cover up their
own and their teams incompetence isnt a typical f2p feature, usually.
Lol you're right, that usually falls into t**twaffle territory.
take any of the features in this game and put them in a single player rpg.
all makes sense there, in fact, they would be pretty good standard for a single player rpg.
but in an mmo? those standard rpg elements are not such great ideas any more.
I would love STO as a single player game, and having the base files locally would allow me to fix a few things in the code lmao.
The actual exploit of TD Patrols was the downleveling to make the enemies cap out at lvl 50 but give level 60 rewards. Neither meimeitoo or guilli88 used or abused that exploit.
Yeah. On solo Elite, the enemies in 'Shutdown' certainly didn't stay at lv 50 (I actually don't even know how you can see what level the NPCs are). When I reached lv 54-55, I began noticing a huge increase in difficulty, though.
Irony of it is, that, in hindsight, 'Shutdown' was a terrible mission to choose, LOL, as they frequently come at you with multiple Feedback Pulses, that can easily take half your hull, or more, in the process. Argala, with pathetic Malon/Kazon, would have been much easier.
So, now you're refusing to acknowledge the flaw in your argument, and I'm the one with fingers in my ears apparently...
My answers are in the posts you apparently aren't reading (yet bothering to quote, for some reason). So, either you don't have the mental capacity to understand, or refuse to understand. Either way, it's pointless to explain anything to you.
Excellent video. I would also add that game developers also need to understand what "whales" also want. I was happily paying decent money into STO before this debacle, but have never been asked "why" by Cryptic or they'd know: I really enjoy Star Trek, and I know that not everyone in this game can pay much or even anything. I've seen kids playing, pensioners, those with lots of kids and it's their bit of escape. I know that I have been paying more than the game is worth to me individually, in part to support the experience for those who cannot. And I have been happy to do so.
What I'm NOT interested in seeing, is Illustrious Executive Producers summarily retro-nerfing, players being unable to play the game because of not being able to pay buckets, or people not being regularly on STO beyond the first week's worth of storylines because it's been turned into "play through the storyline up the start of DR then forget it because it will be too expensive for you".
In a nutshell: Cryptic, ASK US what we're doing here. DO NOT just assume you know what we want. This latest release makes it clear, that you need to stop assuming, and start asking.
Another player added a video of a lecture which was about how she created for her business a series of Player Archetypes which represented the various types of players of their game, their needs, wants and motivations. I think this is also excellent advice for Cryptic, so that they stop making Grindfests which only benefits one type of STO player and is a net Negative for everyones else.
On "Free To Play", I agree with this video's comment that the term needs to be removed from the lexicon. These games are "Free To Try", or "Free To Access", or "Free To Download". At some point however, there's a cost either in terms of real money, or in terms of grinding long hours to make enough resource to exchange with another for their real money (the Dilithium Exchange is where you buy your Zen off another player, at a very great premium... it's not "Free Zen" at all). The old saying is, "If you're not the customer, you're the product", and in STO, if you're selling Dilithium for Zen, then the customer is the Zen buyer, and the Dilithium Farmer is part of the product. However, STO devs must recognize that this means Zen Buyers need those Dilithium Farmers around to buy Dilithium from.
My answers are in the posts you apparently aren't reading (yet bothering to quote, for some reason). So, either you don't have the mental capacity to understand, or refuse to understand. Either way, it's pointless to explain anything to you.
Thank you for repeatedly proving my point for me.
You started by claiming that playing the Dyson BZ is an exploit......
My answers are in the posts you apparently aren't reading (yet bothering to quote, for some reason). So, either you don't have the mental capacity to understand, or refuse to understand. Either way, it's pointless to explain anything to you.
Thank you for repeatedly proving my point for me.
I've since been made aware that dilithium is rewarded once having capped the Spec Tree, so I can see the association you were making..
However, issues with the function of the Dyson Battleground are not directly related to issue in question, as it's an entirely different series of varying issues...
They cannot simply be lumped together just because the behaviour is in some way unethical... They are two different problems...
As stated, if the Dyson Ground Battlezone issues were related to unintentionally rapid XP gain, and yet considered to be Working As Intended, then yes, I would agree there is indeed a precedent...
However, this is not the underlying issue with the Dyson Ground Battlezone and so, it does not make for a valid argument, hence it is a straw man argument as it merely tries to deflect from the actual issue at hand...
Not really, they could add any amount of Dilithium they wanted into the market, they already cap the upper and lower limits, who's to say there isn't a mechanism working that would automatically make zen or dilithium available if the supply from one side of the player base dried up?
Good point.
I'd still say that in my own situation, I want to see other players around. Some of my fondest moments in STO have been helping new players in missions or talking with younger players about Star Trek. To lose the "non-paying" players and just having a bunch of people grinding out resources for themselves is precisely what I don't think is interesting or worth spending money on.
erm using dyson is not an exploit what is an exploit is certain um behaviours which go on in the zone regularly which I shall not name here because your not supposed to post such things on the message boards or make them public although its pretty widely known.
Not everyone exploits the zone some of us use it as its intended and capture the points on the map point by point and stay put until the point is captured and then move to the next point etc etc. Others on the other hand exploit the .. TRIBBLE out of the place. One day cryptic may do something about it until then for the moment in that instance they will continue on their path.
There are a few variations of "not intended" behaviour occuring in dyson but that doesnt mean that everyone does it. Such is the nature of exploits and people who may or may not have scruples that make it okay for them to exploit or not..
Just like the people who decided not to take part in exploitive behaviour in this case and those who did. Some saw the issue and did something else others chose to exploit. In this case cryptic decided to do something about it. Its their game they get to decide what is important to deal with and what is not. Meanwhile anyone who exploits at all in any zone is taking a chance.
Them not fixing the issues does not make it okay for people to exploit in dyson battle zone (or any other zone for that matter especially when you know its not intended) silence or them not working on something does not make it okay we are all responsible for our own behaviour.
It is not okay to exploit anywhere .. whether you get caught or not is a different matter. This is pretty basic stuff that anyone can understand.
1. They're already public. People report it constantly, and there are several threads buried on the forums about it.
2. Then why not just say that? Read what the EP said about it. That people should have known better. That's what Ive been addressing.
3. By deeming numerously reported WORSE exploits (like Dyson, as well as others mentioned in this very thread), working as intended, it sets a precedent that they are not exploits. Therefore, similar and lesser occurrences can NOT be seen as people "knowing better."
It's as simple as 1+1=2.
A is not an exploit, so sayeth the development team.
B is not an exploit, so sayeth the development team.
C is similar to or lesser than both A and B. It is called an exploit, and even though it is less "exploitative" by their own definition, the players who did it should have known better, and deserve name-calling, disbelief, and ridicule. Also, they lose some of their stuff.
It doesn't matter that it was also reported beforehand, with no change or acknowledgement.
None of this screams "you dirty cheater" like some people are having fun implying, or flat-out saying here. No one "should have known better." Period.
I've since been made aware that dilithium is rewarded once having capped the Spec Tree, so I can see the association you were making..
However, issues with the function of the Dyson Battleground are not directly related to issue in question, as it's an entirely different series of varying issues...
They cannot simply be lumped together just because the behaviour is in some way unethical... They are two different problems...
As stated, if the Dyson Ground Battlezone issues were related to unintentionally rapid XP gain, and yet considered to be Working As Intended, then yes, I would agree there is indeed a precedent...
However, this is not the underlying issue with the Dyson Ground Battlezone and so, it does not make for a valid argument, hence it is a straw man argument as it merely tries to deflect from the actual issue at hand...
Thank you...
Seriously? Are you this obtuse?
They are both commonly thought of as "exploitative." The rewards in question are irrelevant.
You can't be serious, and I shouldn't be feeding the troll.
Comments
erm using dyson is not an exploit what is an exploit is certain um behaviours which go on in the zone regularly which I shall not name here because your not supposed to post such things on the message boards or make them public although its pretty widely known.
Not everyone exploits the zone some of us use it as its intended and capture the points on the map point by point and stay put until the point is captured and then move to the next point etc etc. Others on the other hand exploit the .. TRIBBLE out of the place. One day cryptic may do something about it until then for the moment in that instance they will continue on their path.
There are a few variations of "not intended" behaviour occuring in dyson but that doesnt mean that everyone does it. Such is the nature of exploits and people who may or may not have scruples that make it okay for them to exploit or not..
Just like the people who decided not to take part in exploitive behaviour in this case and those who did. Some saw the issue and did something else others chose to exploit. In this case cryptic decided to do something about it. Its their game they get to decide what is important to deal with and what is not. Meanwhile anyone who exploits at all in any zone is taking a chance.
Them not fixing the issues does not make it okay for people to exploit in dyson battle zone (or any other zone for that matter especially when you know its not intended) silence or them not working on something does not make it okay we are all responsible for our own behaviour.
It is not okay to exploit anywhere .. whether you get caught or not is a different matter. This is pretty basic stuff that anyone can understand.
of course it had something to do with the dilithium
but since that reward at the end of the spec tree had been removed anyway... why punishing the players once more?
and another example why australian education system is lacking.
Being retorted so heartily, must have really hurt to still be clinging to this...
I didn't know, either. Naturally I was nowhere near having maxed out the Specialization tree yet.
What I find very indicative about this whole Dilithium side-issue, though, is that it goes to show how little thought they put into any of this. So, now they removed the Dilithium reward, after having 'fixed' the alleged bug, because, yes, why exactly?! Because ppl reached the threshold of where they could start reaping Dilithium? *boggle*
levelled one char doing argala solo till 60, then dq episodes and some japori pugging.
pretty sure japori wasnt the problem since only one of my chars got punished,
and yes, it wasnt one that did run japori only.
it was more exp than cryptic expected, all they judged by.
clearly our fault not noticing what that sad excuse of a dev team didnt notice.
Well if they stated it clearly, how about you quote it. Frankly you are misunderstanding the exploit in question.
The exploit you think you are referring to is the 5x XP bug in the TD Patrol Missions, which was actually a global 5x XP for Elite setting across the board. That was WAI on Tribble and WAI on release as they failed to change the setting.
The actual exploit of TD Patrols was the downleveling to make the enemies cap out at lvl 50 but give level 60 rewards. Neither meimeitoo or guilli88 used or abused that exploit.
The Dev's have decided to label using Elite setting for missions/patrols an exploit. That is where the problem with the normal levellers getting their XP adjusted/removed occurs.
BTW I hate to break it to you that your arguments have been flawed since the start because you were ignorant of the actual causes and the resultant claims of the Dev's. This indeed has led you to make fallacious claims against other players and in doing so has highlighted the danger of misinformation as fact very well. According to D'Angelo's wisdom you should be rolled back to lvl 60 and lose spec points for this
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Ah'hem... Exploit...
The only oversight I've made was being unaware that dilithium was rewarded when capping the Spec Tree... As I said previously, I was honestly unaware of this and can now see where sinn74 was going with their statements...
However.... I was aware of what the underlying mechanics of the issue were in relation to Tau Dewa and if you're going to make such an assertion otherwise, please cite the posts in question where I have clearly demonstrated I did not...
Thank you!
And that, honestly, is ludicrous.
(PWE: "5x speed too slow?!?"
Power-levelers: "Yes, we're gonna have to go right to ludicrous speed!")
LOL.
removing dil was just the second punishment for us dirty exploiters,
only this time it affects all.
(maybe third since sp nerf was a punishment too)
i doubt anyone could have botted sp dil rewards to reach more effectiveness than grinding voth ground battlezone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
as much as i love this clip it has nothing to do with this thread.
executive producers putting the blame on grinders to cover up their
own and their teams incompetence isnt a typical f2p feature, usually.
Lol you're right, that usually falls into t**twaffle territory.
I would love STO as a single player game, and having the base files locally would allow me to fix a few things in the code lmao.
Yeah. On solo Elite, the enemies in 'Shutdown' certainly didn't stay at lv 50 (I actually don't even know how you can see what level the NPCs are). When I reached lv 54-55, I began noticing a huge increase in difficulty, though.
Irony of it is, that, in hindsight, 'Shutdown' was a terrible mission to choose, LOL, as they frequently come at you with multiple Feedback Pulses, that can easily take half your hull, or more, in the process. Argala, with pathetic Malon/Kazon, would have been much easier.
My answers are in the posts you apparently aren't reading (yet bothering to quote, for some reason). So, either you don't have the mental capacity to understand, or refuse to understand. Either way, it's pointless to explain anything to you.
Thank you for repeatedly proving my point for me.
Excellent video. I would also add that game developers also need to understand what "whales" also want. I was happily paying decent money into STO before this debacle, but have never been asked "why" by Cryptic or they'd know: I really enjoy Star Trek, and I know that not everyone in this game can pay much or even anything. I've seen kids playing, pensioners, those with lots of kids and it's their bit of escape. I know that I have been paying more than the game is worth to me individually, in part to support the experience for those who cannot. And I have been happy to do so.
What I'm NOT interested in seeing, is Illustrious Executive Producers summarily retro-nerfing, players being unable to play the game because of not being able to pay buckets, or people not being regularly on STO beyond the first week's worth of storylines because it's been turned into "play through the storyline up the start of DR then forget it because it will be too expensive for you".
In a nutshell: Cryptic, ASK US what we're doing here. DO NOT just assume you know what we want. This latest release makes it clear, that you need to stop assuming, and start asking.
Another player added a video of a lecture which was about how she created for her business a series of Player Archetypes which represented the various types of players of their game, their needs, wants and motivations. I think this is also excellent advice for Cryptic, so that they stop making Grindfests which only benefits one type of STO player and is a net Negative for everyones else.
On "Free To Play", I agree with this video's comment that the term needs to be removed from the lexicon. These games are "Free To Try", or "Free To Access", or "Free To Download". At some point however, there's a cost either in terms of real money, or in terms of grinding long hours to make enough resource to exchange with another for their real money (the Dilithium Exchange is where you buy your Zen off another player, at a very great premium... it's not "Free Zen" at all). The old saying is, "If you're not the customer, you're the product", and in STO, if you're selling Dilithium for Zen, then the customer is the Zen buyer, and the Dilithium Farmer is part of the product. However, STO devs must recognize that this means Zen Buyers need those Dilithium Farmers around to buy Dilithium from.
So yeah, giant fundamental flaw.
My character Tsin'xing
I've since been made aware that dilithium is rewarded once having capped the Spec Tree, so I can see the association you were making..
However, issues with the function of the Dyson Battleground are not directly related to issue in question, as it's an entirely different series of varying issues...
They cannot simply be lumped together just because the behaviour is in some way unethical... They are two different problems...
As stated, if the Dyson Ground Battlezone issues were related to unintentionally rapid XP gain, and yet considered to be Working As Intended, then yes, I would agree there is indeed a precedent...
However, this is not the underlying issue with the Dyson Ground Battlezone and so, it does not make for a valid argument, hence it is a straw man argument as it merely tries to deflect from the actual issue at hand...
Thank you...
Good point.
I'd still say that in my own situation, I want to see other players around. Some of my fondest moments in STO have been helping new players in missions or talking with younger players about Star Trek. To lose the "non-paying" players and just having a bunch of people grinding out resources for themselves is precisely what I don't think is interesting or worth spending money on.
1. They're already public. People report it constantly, and there are several threads buried on the forums about it.
2. Then why not just say that? Read what the EP said about it. That people should have known better. That's what Ive been addressing.
3. By deeming numerously reported WORSE exploits (like Dyson, as well as others mentioned in this very thread), working as intended, it sets a precedent that they are not exploits. Therefore, similar and lesser occurrences can NOT be seen as people "knowing better."
It's as simple as 1+1=2.
A is not an exploit, so sayeth the development team.
B is not an exploit, so sayeth the development team.
C is similar to or lesser than both A and B. It is called an exploit, and even though it is less "exploitative" by their own definition, the players who did it should have known better, and deserve name-calling, disbelief, and ridicule. Also, they lose some of their stuff.
It doesn't matter that it was also reported beforehand, with no change or acknowledgement.
None of this screams "you dirty cheater" like some people are having fun implying, or flat-out saying here. No one "should have known better." Period.
Search for the numerous threads explaining it. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I cant help you.
Seriously? Are you this obtuse?
They are both commonly thought of as "exploitative." The rewards in question are irrelevant.
You can't be serious, and I shouldn't be feeding the troll.
Having seen some of this, I'll confirm that yes, I think you're being trolled here.