Unfortunately, that doesn't change the other problem of P2W - that the devs continually have to introduce stuff that gives more power, so that people have a reason to want it, and some will end up picking the non-grindy-route for it and pay money.
Another thing you have to remember is the game was a sinking ship and form the moment they took it over and have started working on it, everything in game - and even the gamet itself, has been rushed out, right up until today where for example crafting and doff UI was released entirely unfinsihed.
One way to look at it is the game is beginning to become what they want it to be.
Way I see it, old STF with no reputations, vendor trash, carrier pets, exploration, doff UI, tour the galaxy and 200 other items I can't remember, where all great and working but in cryptic's mind needed a fix.
So, from my perspective the quality elements of the game that are dead or dying are the things cryptic haven't gotten around to killing yet.
Month by month see them wasting time on nerfting or straight up deleting things we used to enjoy.
I just remember mirror event and daily's as I was typing I am sure most of us have litterly 100s of items we could bring up that were pointless, significantly reduced the fun of the game, added nothing new and took time away from adding new stuff.
Knowing that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense comparing how the game used to be or how their policy used to be because it isn't until recently and now we are seeing what their vision is.
But yes it looks terrible.
As more and more cryptic stuff is taking over the "old" the worse it is getting.
I always love to bring up the vendor trash nerf as some of the most pitiful I have ever seen done in a game.
It would seem to cryptic the idea of playing a game isn't recreational but to control the players down to the smallest metric with the philosophy of wasting as much time as possible.
The irony being the promise of the game was "earn dil for time" and "pay cash to skip timegates" both of which are blatant lies.
/edit
However none of that qualifies as pay2win and therein the remaining strength in the game, that it's free and you can grind nearly everything out, without spending cash
Another thing you have to remember is the game was a sinking ship and form the moment they took it over and have started working on it, everything in game - and even the gamet itself, has been rushed out, right up until today where for example crafting and doff UI was released entirely unfinsihed.
This part... Leave it out... What you are telling here, is hearsay, nothing more, nothing less.
Until such point that we see numbers... Actual documentation, you have no idea about the what, who and how many of STO pre-F2P.
People use it as a "be happy for F2P because the game wouldn be here if it wasn't", but its rumor and as such, should always be disregarded.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I'm just afraid I'm not gonna have anyone to play with because they can't afford it. TBH I almost can't afford it.
I don't think you have anything to be worried about... As long as the delta-packs are selling, and theres Zen to be made from Dil, there will be new players all the time...
In and out... thats how F2P games work... Old players leave, new players join...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
This part... Leave it out... What you are telling here, is hearsay, nothing more, nothing less.
Until such point that we see numbers... Actual documentation, you have no idea about the what, who and how many of STO pre-F2P.
People use it as a "be happy for F2P because the game wouldn be here if it wasn't", but its rumor and as such, should always be disregarded.
Several problems with your reply here.
First, we do know the ship was sinking - is why it went f2p but
Second, that is not at all what I am talking about.
I was talking about when cryptic bought the game and had to rush it out, leaving it unfinished.
Just like pretty much every release including doff UI and crafting have been equally unfinished...
But overall the point was the game previously, up until now, has not at all been what cryptic wanted.
It is now, recently with a majority of the features deleted or nerfed by cryptics we get the first sense of how they want it to be.
SO, you cant compare "old cryptic policy" to the recent one because there has only ever been one.
It just so happened it has taken this long for it to come into play slowly killing off stuff that was fine and working and getting worse
So.....get good then. Problem solved. Shouldn't only Elite players be in an elite queue? It wasn't made for random no-skills to play.
I run a fleet dreadnought with all vr Mk xii fleet weapons, Mk xii jem'hadar space set and vr Mk xii consoles. If I get utterly destroyed playing elite queues I will either upgrade or not play elite queues. Missing out for awhile on a very very very very very small portion of an otherwise very very large game, in no way, seems like a big deal.
But there is no way that some people can get good. Either they lack the physical capability, mental capacity, strategic mindset, or some other reason that prevents them from getting good. Due to this event being Elite only means that it promotes Elitism. STO always had content that was available to everyone to play, but we will have content that only some players can play.
My post is not about non - elites playing Elite content, but there not being Normal or Advanced versions of this event for non - elites to do.
First, we do know the ship was sinking - is why it went f2p but
Second, that is not at all what I am talking about.
I was talking about when cryptic bought the game and had to rush it out, leaving it unfinished.
Just like pretty much every release including doff UI and crafting have been equally unfinished...
But overall the point was the game previously, up until now, has not at all been what cryptic wanted.
It is now, recently with a majority of the features deleted or nerfed by cryptics we get the first sense of how they want it to be.
SO, you cant compare "old cryptic policy" to the recent one because there has only ever been one.
It just so happened it has taken this long for it to come into play slowly killing off stuff that was fine and working and getting worse
No... We don't know that the ship was sinking... I havn't seen an actual dev-quote, interview or budget-statement saying anything about that part... in fact, they've refused to give any kind of numbers at all, in everything I've seen.
That rumor (ship is sinking so they go F2P) was started by a TRIBBLE-load of Pro-F2P'ers back when it was announced to back their claims, and until such time that I see actual numbers confirming that "the ship was sinking" I will leave it as an open question, yet to be confirmed or debunked... After all: Cryptic had pretty good numbers on the annual financial thingies.
There is no doubt that the game was in bad shape when it launched, but player numbers were rising (based on how many I had to play with) up until the point where Atari pulled manpower, and the game went into maintenance mode.
And it took a few months before I felt a serious drop.
I can't talk to the actual reasons for the removal of certain types of content... I quite simple can't find the trust I need to believe anything cryptic says... I don't know man (woman?), but it is only fairly recent that I've felt an actual boost to additions to the game...
It sure did'n feel as if the game was in maintenance mode anymore, but it did'n feel like it was in good shape either, so thus far my assumption is that it's only recently Cryptic has had enough of a steady income over a prolonged time, to warrant going all in... Probably thanks to the LoR and later additions.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Their is no such thing as a F2P game that is P2W. Nor is their a F2P game that is not P2W.
It is no different than the distinction between a game being 'casual' or 'hardcore'. They have degrees not absolutes. It is for the individual to decide if the game falls on that line at a place they enjoy. Or not.
Merely labeling a game P2W or Hardcore or whatever is meaningless.
That said STO endgame has continually been bouncing between making it more hardcore, then more casual, and now it is beginning to swing in the hardcore direction again while giving players the option of paying more or grinding more to continue to progress their characters/ships/gear.
Will STO be more of a hardcore game (character progression wise) after DR releases? yes.
Can you throw money at STO to make that less of a hardcore game after DR releases? yes.
Now for the catch 22. What happens if no one spends money for in game progression?
Progression: Increasing a character's power directly or expanding the number of options available for use in overcoming in game obstacles or conflicts.
Until such point that we see numbers... Actual documentation, you have no idea about the what, who and how many of STO pre-F2P.
People use it as a "be happy for F2P because the game wouldn be here if it wasn't", but its rumor and as such, should always be disregarded.
According to MMO Data, STO had 106k active accounts at launch and dropped to 58k active accounts in about half a year (see chart).
Game companies are rational actors. Clearly going F2P makes more money, or they wouldn't have converted. Better ROI means more investments. Not going F2P may not have killed the game, but it would have meant less money, less quality.
Given that the subscription model is very obviously dying, leaving only titans like WoW and certain niches like EVE, the claim that requires proof is actually that an MMO would not have died if it didn't go F2P. CoX died even when it went F2P, though.
According to MMO Data, STO had 106k active accounts at launch and dropped to 58k active accounts in about half a year (see chart).
With respect: Cryptic has been clear on the terms of giving out numbers of their game.
I used to watch the site in question, but giving that Cryptic would'n even give out actual numbers, only "close to" numbers on their own milestone thing from a while back, I find it very hard to beleive that Cryptic gave their numbers to a non-affiliated site...
I want the source... The actual numbers... not some random estimated numbers from a random estimating page.
I am sure you see the reason why.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Sorry, when people talk about pay to win, the general concensus or understanding is a cost, to the individual concerned, in real world money; not time, not in game currency, unless said individual has paid for it with real world money. There is no demand or need to open your wallet, that is a choice that you make. From an individuals perspective, everything in game can be obtained with grind and time.
There should be a universal gaming Law that determines what is a resonable time frame between someone who buys "said item" and who grinds "said item". When the item grind surpasses the timeframe it takes for the resonable timeframe it is Pay2Win. Example= When it takes a year for someone to grind out thier crafting levels compared to someone buying Dil and upgrading them to max level in a few minutes. If thats not Pay2Win nothing is.
This nonsense of telling people its not Pay2Win just because you can obtain the item by means of just playing the game needs to stop. When it takes someone months to get a item that someone else can have instantly just paying for it. I don't know who thier trying to fool with this messed up way of doing bussiness but something needs to change. If not this game is (as my loyal followers would say) DOOOMMMEEDDD!!!!
By reading my post you would think I hated STO. Actually its the complete opposite. I love the game. I want to play it for years to come. Thats why when I see the direction the game is going it strikes a nerve. If it keeps following this way of doing buissiness I just don't see a future for it. The Free 2 Play model is probably the best model there is for a MMO. Normal MMOs that have a subscription charge (on average) 14.99 a month. I think it would be extremely easy for cryptic to get that much money out of its players every month. They are not satisfied with that. If they would just monetize the game in cheaper/smaller amounts. I believe they would keep all their players, get new players but more importantly make thier players happy. Why is that such a impossible goal for this company. Its almost like they believe they should get as much as they can as fast as they can. Maybe I am wrong about the whole F2P idea. Maybe I'm not.
@hyefather Thing is: The whole "time between buying and grindability" only works when theres a static balance between in-game and out-of-game purchase.
Right now, as I see it personally, theres a oversaturation of Dil needing things... Or rather, the demand for dil is higher than the system can supply.
It's not necessarily a bad thing... It should (and probably will) bring in more money from the whales in the Zen sales, hence more raw economics into the development.
However, Cryptic needs a balance between how much dil they require, and how much dil they provide.
One of the ways to allow for more dil, is more events like the CE or the Mirror events... As you remember, they just had one of those, and a longer while ago a marks and a dil event, allowing for stockpiles of unrefined.
The problem is, that they are letting all the dil-sinks loose at once: RnD, New Rep (shortly) and Upgrade systems all at once makes it seem like Dil is in a short supply, and people might want to get some by buying and selling Zen for dil.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Being also a part of the P2W problem is not the same as being P2W, yes. But the need for power creep is both part of Cryptic's system and part of the P2W system.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think it's in fact know that Cryptic got the hands of this game when it was looking to fail because their predecessor, Perpetual, couldn't deliver and they had to rush the game's development. Which meant the starting quality of the game was indeed poor.
But it's nonsense to say that the game's quality has not improved considerably since launch. People just either were not there (if F2P is really the "old players go out, new players come in, no real surprise here) or have simply forgotten or misssed it because it is a gradual process.
IT's not like the game at some point was utter **** and suddenly was a marvel of software engineering and game design. It's moving on a curve, that has an upward trend. There's a lot that could be better, but there was a lot that used to be worse.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Being also a part of the P2W problem is not the same as being P2W, yes. But the need for power creep is both part of Cryptic's system and part of the P2W system.
No, power creep is part of MMORPGs in general. It has nothing to do with Pay To Win. Being P2W means that players require IRL cash to be able to win, period. If there's an in-game way to earn ways to win, then it is not P2W. And in STO, you can earn almost anything without paying any IRL money.
STO is by far more a "Pay To Convenience" or a "Pay To Be Lazy or Impatient" than a Pay To Win.
No, power creep is part of MMORPGs in general. It has nothing to do with Pay To Win. Being P2W means that players require IRL cash to be able to win, period. If there's an in-game way to earn ways to win, then it is not P2W. And in STO, you can earn almost anything without paying any IRL money.
STO is by far more a "Pay To Convenience" or a "Pay To Be Lazy or Impatient" than a Pay To Win.
Exactly. If I can only get high end gear by paying real life currency, it is p2w. Like you said, this is pay2givemenow. You would think people would be happy and commend cryptic for giving the playerbase an option like that. But logic is pretty much lacking in supply on these boards.
We had free 30,000 dil weapon drops in STF everything was set up to create alts, plenty of people playing ground.
We had mirror event and everything was great!
Just had to fix pvp and then everything would be sweet.
Instead they wasted 2 years nerfing vendor trash, deleting exploration and generally trying to make people waste as much time as possible grinding for every last little EC or dil.
The game has become what cryptic wanted whereas the longer you bo back the less cryptic it was.
Everytime I hear them say stuff like "story missions that weren't up to our quality standard" I fall out my chair laughing.
Listen, ALL story missions so far straight up terrible but it was okay in the past when at least we had mirror event to level with
I am not going forget any of all those litte details to the point I will still be bringing this up 15 years from now on another forum for the next game they working on
People only call it Play 2 Win because they've never played an actual Play 2 Win game.
Look at TOR, where you literally cannot use the best equipment if you're not subscribed. If your subscription lapses, your gear falls off and you're suddenly naked.
People only call it Play 2 Win because they've never played an actual Play 2 Win game.
Look at TOR, where you literally cannot use the best equipment if you're not subscribed. If your subscription lapses, your gear falls off and you're suddenly naked.
Even SWTOR, is not P2W, it is a even worse version P4A (pay for advantage).
That might the weakest developer apology I have ever seen.
If you are paying for an advantage, you arepaying to win
Are you people even trying anymore.
It's like you think it's enough to be on autopilot word splitting to de-rail the points being made, come on now
folks will defend anything, its not a surprise, the only true F2P game in the market atm is dota 2, everything else is p2w to one extend or another, but some folks don't understand that not being p2w on the extend of those horrible chinese/korean MMOs, does not make it true f2p.
with that said, STO is "nice" for a p2w game, but cryptic seems intent on making it "less nice".
as others have pointed out already, STO is more a pay2getitinstantly rather than p2w
PVE is so casual that you can practically clear any content with ships out of the box, and by that i mean white weapons and stuff.
PVP is more team oriented anyway...sure in 1vs1 with players with compareable skills the better setup wins, but in 5vs5 it is luck and better teamplay, period.
But i'd say that i give you the benefit of the doubt in this case, since PVP is so extremely unbalanced that it sometimes appears that a "bought" item is super uber. But again, since everybody can aquire Zen by playing the game it doesn't matter. The only positive thing about PVP in STO i can think of is: "it could be worse"
opening your wallet is completely voluntary in STO and it has by far the best F2P model among f2p games i know of.
the fact that you can exchange dilithium into Zen and Zen into EC means you can get ANYTHING you want by simply playing the game. If you want to skip the "playing" part of the game and get everything anyway, you gotta pay. Simple as that.
We had free 30,000 dil weapon drops in STF everything was set up to create alts, plenty of people playing ground.
We had mirror event and everything was great!
Just had to fix pvp and then everything would be sweet.
Instead they wasted 2 years nerfing vendor trash, deleting exploration and generally trying to make people waste as much time as possible grinding for every last little EC or dil.
The game has become what cryptic wanted whereas the longer you bo back the less cryptic it was.
Everytime I hear them say stuff like "story missions that weren't up to our quality standard" I fall out my chair laughing.
Listen, ALL story missions so far straight up terrible but it was okay in the past when at least we had mirror event to level with
I am not going forget any of all those litte details to the point I will still be bringing this up 15 years from now on another forum for the next game they working on
I agree with everything you said with a couple more things to add.
The new "timesink" for the completion of duty officer assignments. Waiting two minutes for twenty assignments to "complete." Is Cryptic ever going to acknowledge this, much less address and fix it?
Plus other things like the justification of the reputation systems. "Now you have a guaranteed chance of getting the reputation items that you want." More like, you have a guaranteed chance of paying for items that used to be drops. Now after you finish grinding the reputation, grind some more for marks and dilithium to purchase these items. Plus the reasoning for removing Mk X and MkXI reputation items. "But, players were confused and we did this to help them." Cryptic only removed them so players had to pay more marks and dilithium. I only wanted the set bonuses so I purchased the Mk X items, the Mk XII items were far too expensive to justify the tiny bump in stats.
The EC nerf was pretty insulting. Cryptic did it to push new players toward purchasing their disgusting Master Keys to sell on the exchange for EC.
As with everyone who says that STO is not turning into P2W, but "pay for convenience" or "pay to get it now." You may have a point if a majority of the cost to upgrade was for the "finish now" button, but it's not. How many upgrade kits did you make or buy in order to upgrade your item? How many of those very rare materials did you need to make those upgrade kits? How long or how much did it cost you to get those very rare materials that are only available from completing specific Elite queued missions? How long did it take you to level up your crafting in order to make these upgrade kits? How much dilithium did it cost to upgrade one of your items?
Do you see the point I'm making? Do you see the time and/or cost it takes to upgrade items? It's not just the cost to "finish now," it's the cost of the upgrade kits or the cost of the materials and the time and/or cost that it took to level up your crafting. It's the sheer number of upgrade kits to just upgrade a single item. It's the dilithium cost attached to each time you use an upgrade kit to upgrade. Don't forget the original cost of the item you're upgrading, how much did it take to purchase that reputation or fleet item? All of these are part of the cost to upgrade an item, NOT JUST the dilithium cost to finish now.
But there is no way that some people can get good. Either they lack the physical capability, mental capacity, strategic mindset, or some other reason that prevents them from getting good. Due to this event being Elite only means that it promotes Elitism. STO always had content that was available to everyone to play, but we will have content that only some players can play.
My post is not about non - elites playing Elite content, but there not being Normal or Advanced versions of this event for non - elites to do.
We do not let blind people drive cars, so why should we let incompetent captains take on heavy duty missions?
At least the blind people have a valid excuse for their incapability....
I agree with everything you said with a couple more things to add.
The new "timesink" for the completion of duty officer assignments. Waiting two minutes for twenty assignments to "complete." Is Cryptic ever going to acknowledge this, much less address and fix it?
Plus other things like the justification of the reputation systems. "Now you have a guaranteed chance of getting the reputation items that you want." More like, you have a guaranteed chance of paying for items that used to be drops. Now after you finish grinding the reputation, grind some more for marks and dilithium to purchase these items. Plus the reasoning for removing Mk X and MkXI reputation items. "But, players were confused and we did this to help them." Cryptic only removed them so players had to pay more marks and dilithium. I only wanted the set bonuses so I purchased the Mk X items, the Mk XII items were far too expensive to justify the tiny bump in stats.
The EC nerf was pretty insulting. Cryptic did it to push new players toward purchasing their disgusting Master Keys to sell on the exchange for EC.
As with everyone who says that STO is not turning into P2W, but "pay for convenience" or "pay to get it now." You may have a point if a majority of the cost to upgrade was for the "finish now" button, but it's not. How many upgrade kits did you make or buy in order to upgrade your item? How many of those very rare materials did you need to make those upgrade kits? How long or how much did it cost you to get those very rare materials that are only available from completing specific Elite queued missions? How long did it take you to level up your crafting in order to make these upgrade kits? How much dilithium did it cost to upgrade one of your items?
Do you see the point I'm making? Do you see the time and/or cost it takes to upgrade items? It's not just the cost to "finish now," it's the cost of the upgrade kits or the cost of the materials and the time and/or cost that it took to level up your crafting. It's the sheer number of upgrade kits to just upgrade a single item. It's the dilithium cost attached to each time you use an upgrade kit to upgrade. Don't forget the original cost of the item you're upgrading, how much did it take to purchase that reputation or fleet item? All of these are part of the cost to upgrade an item, NOT JUST the dilithium cost to finish now.
i agree, thx for your post. I was unable to explain my way of thinking because my english is not very good. thx again
That might the weakest developer apology I have ever seen.
If you are paying for an advantage, you arepaying to win
Are you people even trying anymore.
It's like you think it's enough to be on autopilot word splitting to de-rail the points being made, come on now
Does being subbed in that game instantly make you win? No, not pay 2 win.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
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One way to look at it is the game is beginning to become what they want it to be.
Way I see it, old STF with no reputations, vendor trash, carrier pets, exploration, doff UI, tour the galaxy and 200 other items I can't remember, where all great and working but in cryptic's mind needed a fix.
So, from my perspective the quality elements of the game that are dead or dying are the things cryptic haven't gotten around to killing yet.
Month by month see them wasting time on nerfting or straight up deleting things we used to enjoy.
I just remember mirror event and daily's as I was typing I am sure most of us have litterly 100s of items we could bring up that were pointless, significantly reduced the fun of the game, added nothing new and took time away from adding new stuff.
Knowing that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense comparing how the game used to be or how their policy used to be because it isn't until recently and now we are seeing what their vision is.
But yes it looks terrible.
As more and more cryptic stuff is taking over the "old" the worse it is getting.
I always love to bring up the vendor trash nerf as some of the most pitiful I have ever seen done in a game.
It would seem to cryptic the idea of playing a game isn't recreational but to control the players down to the smallest metric with the philosophy of wasting as much time as possible.
The irony being the promise of the game was "earn dil for time" and "pay cash to skip timegates" both of which are blatant lies.
/edit
However none of that qualifies as pay2win and therein the remaining strength in the game, that it's free and you can grind nearly everything out, without spending cash
This part... Leave it out... What you are telling here, is hearsay, nothing more, nothing less.
Until such point that we see numbers... Actual documentation, you have no idea about the what, who and how many of STO pre-F2P.
People use it as a "be happy for F2P because the game wouldn be here if it wasn't", but its rumor and as such, should always be disregarded.
I don't think you have anything to be worried about... As long as the delta-packs are selling, and theres Zen to be made from Dil, there will be new players all the time...
In and out... thats how F2P games work... Old players leave, new players join...
Several problems with your reply here.
First, we do know the ship was sinking - is why it went f2p but
Second, that is not at all what I am talking about.
I was talking about when cryptic bought the game and had to rush it out, leaving it unfinished.
Just like pretty much every release including doff UI and crafting have been equally unfinished...
But overall the point was the game previously, up until now, has not at all been what cryptic wanted.
It is now, recently with a majority of the features deleted or nerfed by cryptics we get the first sense of how they want it to be.
SO, you cant compare "old cryptic policy" to the recent one because there has only ever been one.
It just so happened it has taken this long for it to come into play slowly killing off stuff that was fine and working and getting worse
But there is no way that some people can get good. Either they lack the physical capability, mental capacity, strategic mindset, or some other reason that prevents them from getting good. Due to this event being Elite only means that it promotes Elitism. STO always had content that was available to everyone to play, but we will have content that only some players can play.
My post is not about non - elites playing Elite content, but there not being Normal or Advanced versions of this event for non - elites to do.
No... We don't know that the ship was sinking... I havn't seen an actual dev-quote, interview or budget-statement saying anything about that part... in fact, they've refused to give any kind of numbers at all, in everything I've seen.
That rumor (ship is sinking so they go F2P) was started by a TRIBBLE-load of Pro-F2P'ers back when it was announced to back their claims, and until such time that I see actual numbers confirming that "the ship was sinking" I will leave it as an open question, yet to be confirmed or debunked... After all: Cryptic had pretty good numbers on the annual financial thingies.
There is no doubt that the game was in bad shape when it launched, but player numbers were rising (based on how many I had to play with) up until the point where Atari pulled manpower, and the game went into maintenance mode.
And it took a few months before I felt a serious drop.
I can't talk to the actual reasons for the removal of certain types of content... I quite simple can't find the trust I need to believe anything cryptic says... I don't know man (woman?), but it is only fairly recent that I've felt an actual boost to additions to the game...
It sure did'n feel as if the game was in maintenance mode anymore, but it did'n feel like it was in good shape either, so thus far my assumption is that it's only recently Cryptic has had enough of a steady income over a prolonged time, to warrant going all in... Probably thanks to the LoR and later additions.
It is no different than the distinction between a game being 'casual' or 'hardcore'. They have degrees not absolutes. It is for the individual to decide if the game falls on that line at a place they enjoy. Or not.
Merely labeling a game P2W or Hardcore or whatever is meaningless.
That said STO endgame has continually been bouncing between making it more hardcore, then more casual, and now it is beginning to swing in the hardcore direction again while giving players the option of paying more or grinding more to continue to progress their characters/ships/gear.
Will STO be more of a hardcore game (character progression wise) after DR releases? yes.
Can you throw money at STO to make that less of a hardcore game after DR releases? yes.
Now for the catch 22. What happens if no one spends money for in game progression?
Progression: Increasing a character's power directly or expanding the number of options available for use in overcoming in game obstacles or conflicts.
According to MMO Data, STO had 106k active accounts at launch and dropped to 58k active accounts in about half a year (see chart).
Game companies are rational actors. Clearly going F2P makes more money, or they wouldn't have converted. Better ROI means more investments. Not going F2P may not have killed the game, but it would have meant less money, less quality.
Given that the subscription model is very obviously dying, leaving only titans like WoW and certain niches like EVE, the claim that requires proof is actually that an MMO would not have died if it didn't go F2P. CoX died even when it went F2P, though.
With respect: Cryptic has been clear on the terms of giving out numbers of their game.
I used to watch the site in question, but giving that Cryptic would'n even give out actual numbers, only "close to" numbers on their own milestone thing from a while back, I find it very hard to beleive that Cryptic gave their numbers to a non-affiliated site...
I want the source... The actual numbers... not some random estimated numbers from a random estimating page.
I am sure you see the reason why.
There should be a universal gaming Law that determines what is a resonable time frame between someone who buys "said item" and who grinds "said item". When the item grind surpasses the timeframe it takes for the resonable timeframe it is Pay2Win. Example= When it takes a year for someone to grind out thier crafting levels compared to someone buying Dil and upgrading them to max level in a few minutes. If thats not Pay2Win nothing is.
This nonsense of telling people its not Pay2Win just because you can obtain the item by means of just playing the game needs to stop. When it takes someone months to get a item that someone else can have instantly just paying for it. I don't know who thier trying to fool with this messed up way of doing bussiness but something needs to change. If not this game is (as my loyal followers would say) DOOOMMMEEDDD!!!!
By reading my post you would think I hated STO. Actually its the complete opposite. I love the game. I want to play it for years to come. Thats why when I see the direction the game is going it strikes a nerve. If it keeps following this way of doing buissiness I just don't see a future for it. The Free 2 Play model is probably the best model there is for a MMO. Normal MMOs that have a subscription charge (on average) 14.99 a month. I think it would be extremely easy for cryptic to get that much money out of its players every month. They are not satisfied with that. If they would just monetize the game in cheaper/smaller amounts. I believe they would keep all their players, get new players but more importantly make thier players happy. Why is that such a impossible goal for this company. Its almost like they believe they should get as much as they can as fast as they can. Maybe I am wrong about the whole F2P idea. Maybe I'm not.
Right now, as I see it personally, theres a oversaturation of Dil needing things... Or rather, the demand for dil is higher than the system can supply.
It's not necessarily a bad thing... It should (and probably will) bring in more money from the whales in the Zen sales, hence more raw economics into the development.
However, Cryptic needs a balance between how much dil they require, and how much dil they provide.
One of the ways to allow for more dil, is more events like the CE or the Mirror events... As you remember, they just had one of those, and a longer while ago a marks and a dil event, allowing for stockpiles of unrefined.
The problem is, that they are letting all the dil-sinks loose at once: RnD, New Rep (shortly) and Upgrade systems all at once makes it seem like Dil is in a short supply, and people might want to get some by buying and selling Zen for dil.
Being also a part of the P2W problem is not the same as being P2W, yes. But the need for power creep is both part of Cryptic's system and part of the P2W system.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
But it's nonsense to say that the game's quality has not improved considerably since launch. People just either were not there (if F2P is really the "old players go out, new players come in, no real surprise here) or have simply forgotten or misssed it because it is a gradual process.
IT's not like the game at some point was utter **** and suddenly was a marvel of software engineering and game design. It's moving on a curve, that has an upward trend. There's a lot that could be better, but there was a lot that used to be worse.
Real P2W, would mean I give them money, they give me a 100% guarantee of never losing to anything, or anyone!
Ever!
Does Cryptic offer me this exciting 100% guarantee?
A: No
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
STO is by far more a "Pay To Convenience" or a "Pay To Be Lazy or Impatient" than a Pay To Win.
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I like this part... let's call it that.
Exactly. If I can only get high end gear by paying real life currency, it is p2w. Like you said, this is pay2givemenow. You would think people would be happy and commend cryptic for giving the playerbase an option like that. But logic is pretty much lacking in supply on these boards.
The time right before reputation was the hey-day.
We had free 30,000 dil weapon drops in STF everything was set up to create alts, plenty of people playing ground.
We had mirror event and everything was great!
Just had to fix pvp and then everything would be sweet.
Instead they wasted 2 years nerfing vendor trash, deleting exploration and generally trying to make people waste as much time as possible grinding for every last little EC or dil.
The game has become what cryptic wanted whereas the longer you bo back the less cryptic it was.
Everytime I hear them say stuff like "story missions that weren't up to our quality standard" I fall out my chair laughing.
Listen, ALL story missions so far straight up terrible but it was okay in the past when at least we had mirror event to level with
I am not going forget any of all those litte details to the point I will still be bringing this up 15 years from now on another forum for the next game they working on
Look at TOR, where you literally cannot use the best equipment if you're not subscribed. If your subscription lapses, your gear falls off and you're suddenly naked.
Even SWTOR, is not P2W, it is a even worse version P4A (pay for advantage).
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
That might the weakest developer apology I have ever seen.
If you are paying for an advantage, you are paying to win
Are you people even trying anymore.
It's like you think it's enough to be on autopilot word splitting to de-rail the points being made, come on now
folks will defend anything, its not a surprise, the only true F2P game in the market atm is dota 2, everything else is p2w to one extend or another, but some folks don't understand that not being p2w on the extend of those horrible chinese/korean MMOs, does not make it true f2p.
with that said, STO is "nice" for a p2w game, but cryptic seems intent on making it "less nice".
PVE is so casual that you can practically clear any content with ships out of the box, and by that i mean white weapons and stuff.
PVP is more team oriented anyway...sure in 1vs1 with players with compareable skills the better setup wins, but in 5vs5 it is luck and better teamplay, period.
But i'd say that i give you the benefit of the doubt in this case, since PVP is so extremely unbalanced that it sometimes appears that a "bought" item is super uber. But again, since everybody can aquire Zen by playing the game it doesn't matter. The only positive thing about PVP in STO i can think of is: "it could be worse"
opening your wallet is completely voluntary in STO and it has by far the best F2P model among f2p games i know of.
the fact that you can exchange dilithium into Zen and Zen into EC means you can get ANYTHING you want by simply playing the game. If you want to skip the "playing" part of the game and get everything anyway, you gotta pay. Simple as that.
I agree with everything you said with a couple more things to add.
The new "timesink" for the completion of duty officer assignments. Waiting two minutes for twenty assignments to "complete." Is Cryptic ever going to acknowledge this, much less address and fix it?
Plus other things like the justification of the reputation systems. "Now you have a guaranteed chance of getting the reputation items that you want." More like, you have a guaranteed chance of paying for items that used to be drops. Now after you finish grinding the reputation, grind some more for marks and dilithium to purchase these items. Plus the reasoning for removing Mk X and MkXI reputation items. "But, players were confused and we did this to help them." Cryptic only removed them so players had to pay more marks and dilithium. I only wanted the set bonuses so I purchased the Mk X items, the Mk XII items were far too expensive to justify the tiny bump in stats.
The EC nerf was pretty insulting. Cryptic did it to push new players toward purchasing their disgusting Master Keys to sell on the exchange for EC.
As with everyone who says that STO is not turning into P2W, but "pay for convenience" or "pay to get it now." You may have a point if a majority of the cost to upgrade was for the "finish now" button, but it's not. How many upgrade kits did you make or buy in order to upgrade your item? How many of those very rare materials did you need to make those upgrade kits? How long or how much did it cost you to get those very rare materials that are only available from completing specific Elite queued missions? How long did it take you to level up your crafting in order to make these upgrade kits? How much dilithium did it cost to upgrade one of your items?
Do you see the point I'm making? Do you see the time and/or cost it takes to upgrade items? It's not just the cost to "finish now," it's the cost of the upgrade kits or the cost of the materials and the time and/or cost that it took to level up your crafting. It's the sheer number of upgrade kits to just upgrade a single item. It's the dilithium cost attached to each time you use an upgrade kit to upgrade. Don't forget the original cost of the item you're upgrading, how much did it take to purchase that reputation or fleet item? All of these are part of the cost to upgrade an item, NOT JUST the dilithium cost to finish now.
We do not let blind people drive cars, so why should we let incompetent captains take on heavy duty missions?
At least the blind people have a valid excuse for their incapability....
i agree, thx for your post. I was unable to explain my way of thinking because my english is not very good. thx again
Does being subbed in that game instantly make you win? No, not pay 2 win.
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