We do not let blind people drive cars, so why should we let incompetent captains take on heavy duty missions?
At least the blind people have a valid excuse for their incapability....
As shown by my second paragraph, that is what Normal and Advanced are for. There is nothing in my post that says incompetent captains should be able to do Elite content. There is no Normal or Advanced versions for the Battle of Korfez while every other queue will have Normal, Advanced, and Elite versions.
Your post could be read that incompetent players should not be able to do any of the story missions since they are heavy duty missions as far as the story of the game is concerned.
Your post could be read that incompetent players should not be able to do any of the story missions since they are heavy duty missions as far as the story of the game is concerned.
Well it is your choice to pay money or not, no one is forcing you. If you don't like paying for content or grinding for it then don't. The world is not going to end if you are not perfectly equipped and can't solo any content blindfolded.
Also what is going to happen if people stop paying and probably even stop playing because grinding sucks? They will change the game, because they have to. In the end you can hardly blame a company for trying to make money, but it is always your choice where you spent your money. And it is the company which has to adapt, not you.
Well it is your choice to pay money or not, no one is forcing you. If you don't like paying for content or grinding for it then don't. The world is not going to end if you are not perfectly equipped and can't solo any content blindfolded.
Also what is going to happen if people stop paying and probably even stop playing because grinding sucks? They will change the game, because they have to. In the end you can hardly blame a company for trying to make money, but it is always your choice where you spent your money. And it is the company which has to adapt, not you.
but they NEEEEEEEEEEED it! The internet will think they are peasant if they fly anything less than T6, all mk xiv gold!!
That might the weakest developer apology I have ever seen.
If you are paying for an advantage, you arepaying to win
Are you people even trying anymore.
It's like you think it's enough to be on autopilot word splitting to de-rail the points being made, come on now
I'm sorry, but your definition of P2Win, must be different than mine!
If I am paying2win, than I had better have a sure fire 100% surety, that nothing, and no one will EVER be able to defeat me, 100%!
Pay4Advantage, simply means that one can pay for an advantage over another, but is still not guaranteed victory by 100% surety.
There will always be the human factor, as well as advantage matching by paying for those advantages others have, so this will always squash the term Pay2Win.
There should be a universal gaming Law that determines what is a resonable time frame between someone who buys "said item" and who grinds "said item". When the item grind surpasses the timeframe it takes for the resonable timeframe it is Pay2Win. Example= When it takes a year for someone to grind out thier crafting levels compared to someone buying Dil and upgrading them to max level in a few minutes. If thats not Pay2Win nothing is
This nonsense of telling people its not Pay2Win just because you can obtain the item by means of just playing the game needs to stop. When it takes someone months to get a item that someone else can have instantly just paying for it. I don't know who thier trying to fool with this messed up way of doing bussiness but something needs to change. If not this game is (as my loyal followers would say) DOOOMMMEEDDD!!!!
Again, that still isnt Pay to Win, its Paying for personal impatience..
If a person pays an extra £5.00 at my local cinema when they book thier ticket, they can get in the doors early. They may well jump the line, but i'm still watching the same film, in the same room, its a personal choice not an enforced charge.
And using the new crafting system is a bad example, ive been doing 'cheap' daily missions on 5 characters and will have all schools to level 15 by the 14th of October, is that not a suitable time frame?
These threads are like a broken record..."Oh noes, the game is P2W..." It's not, especially not in the pve or stf department. You see, PvE is an individual's game, even in group PvE. How I play the game as an individual has no direct effect on your enjoyment of the game, and is by definition not P2W. If, however, they offered a weapon that could one shot everyone in PvP, but it was only available in the cash shop, and you couldn't use dil to get the zen to get it, then you have P2W.
Besides, there is no "win" in the PvE portion of an MMO. It's never ending through expansions and gear progression.
Lastly, STO was not on it's last leg when it went F2P. Perfect World acquired Cryptic. Perfect World's model is F2P. All of Criptic's games converted to their F2P model, as was most likely in a contract. Even the as yet released Neverwinter was converted to F2P.
For those that like to get technical, it is true that you can buy everything in the game, and even level the crafting system, and even upgrade everything you have on all your characters, and never pay a single thing with RL monies. It can all be done by grinding.
However, if you look at the definition of Pay to Win, you will see that they heavily push it. Pay to Win: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate, and then makes the game largely unbalanced, even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Therefore, P2W doesn't mean that you are guarantied a 100% win. It also doesn't mean that the game requires a subscription. What it does mean is if the game will allow you to spend money to get better gear (Including through the upgrade system), our make better gear (The crafting system) than others at a "faster rate" and then makes the game unbalanced, then it is P2W. Also, if you look at the definition, it also says that it gives this advantage over "people who have skill in the game without paying."
Therefore, the way that they are creating more and more things that require large amounts of Dil, they are making it hard for most players to get any of the new, or upgraded things they will need for the new content. If the developers are not lying about how difficult the new Elite only content is going to be, and not lying about what is needed for it, then they are blocking the content from players that don't have good enough gear for it, no matter how good their skills are.
Now, it has been proven that some of the hype they push is a lot of fluff. And I do hope that this is the case, and that a T5, or T5-U ship can do the Elite content without needing more than MK XII fleet weapons, and normal Rep gear. However, if they do require the best gear, and ships, then it is pushing the P2W on most of the players.
I am disabled, and have no income. For that reason, I have been grinding for just about everything I have in the game. I have no problem grinding to get what I want, and others being able to pay to get it much faster. However, since everything they come out with that requires large amounts of Dil, it means that it will take a very long time for me to my gear on my ships upgraded.
If they had halfway decent Dil prices on the stuff, then it wouldn't be a problem. But since they are requiring such high amounts of Dil, I am not planning on wasting resources on any of the upgrades. I have decided to stop grinding, and enjoy the game.
They can keep their greedy attitude. I will play the content I can, and the content I can't, I will just let others play it, and I will watch the videos on youtube.
Also, just to clear up something about whether or not someone is elite just because they have the gear for it, that is wrong. I know of a lot of other players that ate not upgrading anything on their ships because of the outrageous prices to do so. Just because they may not have the upgraded gear, it doesn't mean that they are incompetent, or there is something wrong with them. That is the worst attitude to have toward others.
A lot of times people forget that it is just a game, and they start treating others that they think are not as good as them as inferior, stupid, or just lower than them. Having the best quality ship, gear, and flying skills doesn't make you a better person. Just better at killing things. You attitude is what determines whether you are a better person. I have seen many that are not good at the Elite STFs we now have that are far better than some of the "Elite" players out there. And I would rather fly with ones like them, than those "Elite" players that think they are better than others because they can mash a button on their keyboard.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
With respect: Cryptic has been clear on the terms of giving out numbers of their game.
I used to watch the site in question, but giving that Cryptic would'n even give out actual numbers, only "close to" numbers on their own milestone thing from a while back, I find it very hard to beleive that Cryptic gave their numbers to a non-affiliated site...
I want the source... The actual numbers... not some random estimated numbers from a random estimating page.
I am sure you see the reason why.
No doubt.. Funny even when Dan was saying no to F2P publicly it seems they were secretly making plans to sell the company to the F2P PWE company. Anyway there are several options which could have been explored but so like you I want to see real data before I believe the industry hype.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
So what do we win when we pay2win? What prize do we get when we spend money on the game? All anyone gains is a fleeting sense of accomplishment that fades away. In the end, most of us will wonder why we spent that much money on the game when there is always far better uses of our money and time.
At least this form of addiction usually doesn't do any type of lasting damage unlike some others. There are certainly lots of regrets about purchasing some ingame item, but I have never heard of someone mugging a person so they can buy lockbox keys.
So what do we win when we pay2win? What prize do we get when we spend money on the game? All anyone gains is a fleeting sense of accomplishment that fades away. In the end, most of us will wonder why we spent that much money on the game when there is always far better uses of our money and time.
At least this form of addiction usually doesn't do any type of lasting damage unlike some others. There are certainly lots of regrets about purchasing some ingame item, but I have never heard of someone mugging a person so they can buy lockbox keys.
That is exactly what I am looking out now, how much longer will this money sink be around and continue? So fat myself and many others over the years have given, given, and given, and that's our choice, but its also our choice when to stop as well.
Lots of posts came up about lock boxes, many felt the same way then, as this is making people feel now. The gambling aspect of the game is rising once again, gambling on gear upgrades you SHOULD be able to get through a simple purchas is now a random dice roll, and they expect us to be giddy over that?
For those that like to get technical, it is true that you can buy everything in the game, and even level the crafting system, and even upgrade everything you have on all your characters, and never pay a single thing with RL monies. It can all be done by grinding.
However, if you look at the definition of Pay to Win, you will see that they heavily push it. Pay to Win: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate, and then makes the game largely unbalanced, even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Therefore, P2W doesn't mean that you are guarantied a 100% win. It also doesn't mean that the game requires a subscription. What it does mean is if the game will allow you to spend money to get better gear (Including through the upgrade system), our make better gear (The crafting system) than others at a "faster rate" and then makes the game unbalanced, then it is P2W. Also, if you look at the definition, it also says that it gives this advantage over "people who have skill in the game without paying."
Therefore, the way that they are creating more and more things that require large amounts of Dil, they are making it hard for most players to get any of the new, or upgraded things they will need for the new content. If the developers are not lying about how difficult the new Elite only content is going to be, and not lying about what is needed for it, then they are blocking the content from players that don't have good enough gear for it, no matter how good their skills are.
Now, it has been proven that some of the hype they push is a lot of fluff. And I do hope that this is the case, and that a T5, or T5-U ship can do the Elite content without needing more than MK XII fleet weapons, and normal Rep gear. However, if they do require the best gear, and ships, then it is pushing the P2W on most of the players.
I am disabled, and have no income. For that reason, I have been grinding for just about everything I have in the game. I have no problem grinding to get what I want, and others being able to pay to get it much faster. However, since everything they come out with that requires large amounts of Dil, it means that it will take a very long time for me to my gear on my ships upgraded.
If they had halfway decent Dil prices on the stuff, then it wouldn't be a problem. But since they are requiring such high amounts of Dil, I am not planning on wasting resources on any of the upgrades. I have decided to stop grinding, and enjoy the game.
They can keep their greedy attitude. I will play the content I can, and the content I can't, I will just let others play it, and I will watch the videos on youtube.
Also, just to clear up something about whether or not someone is elite just because they have the gear for it, that is wrong. I know of a lot of other players that ate not upgrading anything on their ships because of the outrageous prices to do so. Just because they may not have the upgraded gear, it doesn't mean that they are incompetent, or there is something wrong with them. That is the worst attitude to have toward others.
A lot of times people forget that it is just a game, and they start treating others that they think are not as good as them as inferior, stupid, or just lower than them. Having the best quality ship, gear, and flying skills doesn't make you a better person. Just better at killing things. You attitude is what determines whether you are a better person. I have seen many that are not good at the Elite STFs we now have that are far better than some of the "Elite" players out there. And I would rather fly with ones like them, than those "Elite" players that think they are better than others because they can mash a button on their keyboard.
Have you ever stopped to wonder, why definitions for games, are just other people's definition, and not that of everyone?
Hmmm, probably not, and just follow what TRIBBLE they say it is, without so much as consciously thinking it over!
I mean by their definition, there is no actual Pay2Win, because you cannot win anything by that definition.
I have paid for things in game, it hasn't won me nothing, I can & still do lose, so therefore I didn't Pay2Win!
I did however Pay4advantage, I did Pay4Power, but I by know means Paid2Win, because there is no sure fire guarantee of a win. EVER!!!
No doubt.. Funny even when Dan was saying no to F2P publicly it seems they were secretly making plans to sell the company to the F2P PWE company. Anyway there are several options which could have been explored but so like you I want to see real data before I believe the industry hype.
Just to be clear: I am not denying the possibility that the game wasn't doing too well pre-F2P.
But we no nothing, except that Cryptic was the only asset atari had that was making money (Based on the annual financial statement thing, as best I could decode it).
It may or may not have been bad off... We just don't know, and until someone makes an actual document showing numbers accessible to us, we will never know... Despite what people claim.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Just to be clear: I am not denying the possibility that the game wasn't doing too well pre-F2P.
But we no nothing, except that Cryptic was the only asset atari had that was making money (Based on the annual financial statement thing, as best I could decode it).
It may or may not have been bad off... We just don't know, and until someone makes an actual document showing numbers accessible to us, we will never know... Despite what people claim.
But even if STO was making Atari a profit in 2011, lots of us have heard the horror stories about when Atari was selling Cryptic off like no cups in the Cryptic's kitchen. STO couldn't have survived for long and we certainly wouldn't the decent new content that STO now has if Atari was still in charge and bleeding Cryptic dry.
Just to be clear: I am not denying the possibility that the game wasn't doing too well pre-F2P.
But we no nothing, except that Cryptic was the only asset atari had that was making money (Based on the annual financial statement thing, as best I could decode it).
It may or may not have been bad off... We just don't know, and until someone makes an actual document showing numbers accessible to us, we will never know... Despite what people claim.
Exactly.... Ergo I dont buy the F2P saved STO argument.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
You want to know what the real pay to win model is? The subscription model. Why? Under that model if you don't pay, you don't play. And if you don't play you cannot win.
The bottom line, really, is that there is no pay ton win in this game. Only pay to get to the stage where there's nothing left to achieve. And if you ask me, that translates to pay to lose. Because it is the people at that stage who have to struggle to justify playing this game or doing something else with their time. People at that stage do not pay pay money.
This is why I believe that mission content should be indirectly monetized by use of product placement, and having persistant locations that have hooks into reputation progression that is presented as extended activity content.
We would still have free access to the new mission content, but it could be loaded with all sorts of cool things that just happen to be made available on the C-store. And if a sandbox layer is introduced to the game, Dilithium can be used as prerequisite costs to access various tiers of involvement. Sort of a we decide how deep inton one of the mechanics we want to involve ourselves for that hub. Advantages of going as deep as possible would be maximum returns on whatever the mechanic yields for that hub. If it isn't something we personally need, then we need not get involved beyond the first tier which would be free. We would put time in to get whatever is yielded and can put it up on the exchange to supplement those who need it.
When we got New Romulus as an adventure zone with tiers to unlock the featured episodes, I felt that Cryptic had found the perfect model. The requirement of Romulan Marks in conjunction with the other required components served to establish the pace for the rollout of the mission content. Now had mission content been the priority form of update material, and Cryptic had enough people working on it to deliver it regularly enough, then they could have set the required number of marks and dilithium for reputation objective to be however many marks and Dilithium that could be collected in a day, and set the number of needed objectives per tier based on how long it would take for the next featured content to be released.
The problem with the new Romulus content is that it was just too bloody repetitive, and the activities we were doing did not tie directly to the story that was unfolding in the featured episodes. While we are tagging bunnies and collecting water samples, the Tal Shiar are covertly manipulating things. If we had to have those repetitive daily activities, we should have been exploring the entire adventure zone for evidence of Tal Shiar involvement. This evidence could have been included in the events where we had to fight Tholians. So it wouldn't be enough to just kill tholians during the event, we would have a side objective to investigate why they were there, which would involve finding evidence of TS involvement.
It wouldn't be so bad if the reputation progression activities in New Romulus didn't feel like that's all they were. Mindless repetitive activities just to ding the next tier. It would have been nice to have what we were doing directly tied to the plot of the featured series.
Some interesting ideas.... It would be nice of course to get player housing before any of it however for even more purchase madness and mayhem.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
But even if STO was making Atari a profit in 2011, lots of us have heard the horror stories about when Atari was selling Cryptic off like no cups in the Cryptic's kitchen. STO couldn't have survived for long and we certainly wouldn't the decent new content that STO now has if Atari was still in charge and bleeding Cryptic dry.
Rumor has it that Cryptic was sold for some 50 Mil to PWE, which brought Atari into black numbers for god knows how long.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Have you ever stopped to wonder, why definitions for games, are just other people's definition, and not that of everyone?
Hmmm, probably not, and just follow what TRIBBLE they say it is, without so much as consciously thinking it over!
I mean by their definition, there is no actual Pay2Win, because you cannot win anything by that definition.
I have paid for things in game, it hasn't won me nothing, I can & still do lose, so therefore I didn't Pay2Win!
I did however Pay4advantage, I did Pay4Power, but I by know means Paid2Win, because there is no sure fire guarantee of a win. EVER!!!
Well, if you want to nit pick every little detail, then you are right. But, by doing that, there are a lot of other definitions that can be shredded. Like the term "Fly by wire." By nit picking, you can say that since the plane is not actually connected to wires that it flies along, it is not "fly by wire" it is "fly by air."
The point is to look at the entire definition, not just what you can pick out to help support your side of the discussion. For example, it says that they are "games that let you to buy better gear, or allow you to make better items than everyone else as a faster rate..." It doesn't say it is required to do so, but that they let you.
Then, it says "...and then makes the game largely unbalanced, even for people who have skill in the game without paying." This is what is happening when ones are able to use money to gain an advantage quicker.
So, by looking at the definition, it is a general definition of the term. Paying for advantage, or power is covered by that. If every definition for games were nit picked to death like you do, then you will have to say that the game is Pay for Power, Pay for Advantage, Pay for Convenience, Pay for Laziness, Pay for Ships, Pay for Upgrades, etc. The list can go on, and on. However, if you can use one term that covers all of those, like Pay to Win, it makes it easier.
Also, if the game is setup to require someone to have certain gear, or ships to beat a certain mission, and without it you will fail, without question, then by allowing one to buy the items faster than others can grind the resources to get it, it has become Pay to Win. Still doesn't mean a guaranty of a win, but without better gear, you cannot win at all, that is Pay to Win.
About the definition for games, there are terms, and phrases that use general definitions. Those definitions are designed to cover more than one thing. For example, in the gaming community, the word "Tank" means that someone's character can take a lot of damage. But, by nit picking it like you are doing the term Pay to Win, only games that have actual "Tanks" like in real life can have "Tanks" in them. Someone that takes a lot of damage is just a "Character that can take a lot of damage."
When referring to gaming terms, the definitions are based off how it is used the most. The same as dictionaries that are not gaming dictionaries. There are words in the dictionaries that have definitions added, or changed completely, due to how the words are used the most. That is why some words from 30, 50, even 60 years ago have different definitions than they do now. It is based off of how they are used during the times the definition is written. Doesn't mean every single person in the world uses them like that, but the majority do.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
I agree with the op ive posted my reasons in a few threads. The op is 100% right about this latest money grab i was one of the rep-system testers when they 1st came up with it. It was a massive dill sink. But at the time they listened to the player base. I cant see that happening now as they ignored player feed back on the crafting.
Well, if you want to nit pick every little detail, then you are right. But, by doing that, there are a lot of other definitions that can be shredded. Like the term "Fly by wire." By nit picking, you can say that since the plane is not actually connected to wires that it flies along, it is not "fly by wire" it is "fly by air."
The point is to look at the entire definition, not just what you can pick out to help support your side of the discussion. For example, it says that they are "games that let you to buy better gear, or allow you to make better items than everyone else as a faster rate..." It doesn't say it is required to do so, but that they let you.
The "let's you get stuff at a faster rate" is not actually pay-to-win yet. The original model of pay-to-win elements in games was something like Gold Ammunition that you could only buy for money. (And this particular example no longer exists, by the way - You can now buy Gold ammo with earned resources in World of Tanks).
If it just let's you go to the same place faster, it's not really pay-to-win. If money is the only way to get to the top gear, than it is pay-to-win.
Cryptic's model is not pay-to-win, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with problems. IMO, the whole system works really well at not forcing to people to spend money on it to get better equipment, but there is still every incentive for Cryptic to put in more powerful stuff in the game that is most easiest to access with money. That means there is a constant power creep (bad for PvE content, as stuff gets easier and things that used to be challenges stop being challenges), and power imbalances (bad for PvP, as old stuff is less powerful and you get less variety - everyone needs to have the newest lockbox ship).
The whole lockbox thing is another problematic business practice for me. It basically inflates the price of stuff in the game for those that are able and willing to pay for it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I definitely don't mind paying for convenience. I wish I could buy Rep Marks, still gotta do the dailies and wait to earn the Rep, but to buy the marks instead of grind for them would be amazing to me.
Lets not forget this is a free to play game and you should very happy about purchasable content.
I will tell you why, thats how they make their money so they can give us more content.
I think many people only see what's right in front of them and not the bigger picture.
The longer it takes people to do REP, R&D, and upgrade gear the longer they will play.
Running a fleet we see people come and go because people level up then don't have a reason to stay around. Fleet and groups can only do so much to keep people playing, thank you Cryptic for adding long term goals to the game.
A 0.0001 % advantage in stats, you can only buy is pay2win.
It has zero do with what you think it means. It has nothing to do with scripting the game to autopilot as you are talking about.
Just one time before I die, I'd like to see a developer apologist bring up an actual point instead of trolling the debate with nitpicking and word splitting.
Oh, absolutely. I'm not disagreeing with you. And I certainly am not one of those people who yell at Cryptic for not putting out content every day-week-month. I'm a patient man. Except when it comes to grinding. I don't mind the waiting part after the fact. People make multiple toons. I have played the same character for almost 5 years. Basically I guess what I boil down to is, I want the cool stuff without putting in the work for it and I'm willing to pay for it. Selfish and childish, I know.
But I do appreciate how hard the devs work. Even in this downtime. I'm sure they're working hard to fix the issue.
It is the nature of the balance of MMO's these days, i have no problem with it as so many others do. Besides im on a lifer account, but it is well worth it as i bought my son one as well.
A 0.0001 % advantage in stats, you can only buy is pay2win.
It has zero do with what you think it means. It has nothing to do with scripting the game to autopilot as you are talking about.
Just one time before I die, I'd like to see a developer apologist bring up an actual point instead of trolling the debate with nitpicking and word splitting.
Just 1 time bring up a point, just 1 time
Here's one, complaining about pay to win in a free to play game is asinine. The entire monetary system in nearly any game like this is based on the option to use real currency to acquire game content. And in something like STO which features combat a lot of that content is naturally going to have some sort of desirable tactical advantage. What STO does however is ensure that all but a few token ships and perks are available to players if they want to put the time into the system instead (and that very much includes the new systems).
If you have a problem with this format, play a different kind of game.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Wanna be Elite? Don't worry we won't make you grind, just give us money!
If you need to pay to win pve or stfs, you should just uninstall and stop being a burden to the people you queue with in group finder. Pvp is broken period. It's not p2w either.
If you have a problem with this format, play a different kind of game.
Thanks but I had actually said sto was not pay2win and was mocking some apologist for saying it was a feature in which "if I pay money I win the whole game while being afk"
Which of course would require only 1 person or 1 team to have a pay2win option so I found that hilarious
If I don't like go somewhere else? If you don't like what you see on the forum, you go somewhere else how is that?
Complainers made the world what it is, all change comes from people who want things to get better.
Them other people are the real threat to society figuratively speaking and buttom line.
Comments
As shown by my second paragraph, that is what Normal and Advanced are for. There is nothing in my post that says incompetent captains should be able to do Elite content. There is no Normal or Advanced versions for the Battle of Korfez while every other queue will have Normal, Advanced, and Elite versions.
Your post could be read that incompetent players should not be able to do any of the story missions since they are heavy duty missions as far as the story of the game is concerned.
No it really cant read like that.
Also what is going to happen if people stop paying and probably even stop playing because grinding sucks? They will change the game, because they have to. In the end you can hardly blame a company for trying to make money, but it is always your choice where you spent your money. And it is the company which has to adapt, not you.
but they NEEEEEEEEEEED it! The internet will think they are peasant if they fly anything less than T6, all mk xiv gold!!
I'm sorry, but your definition of P2Win, must be different than mine!
If I am paying2win, than I had better have a sure fire 100% surety, that nothing, and no one will EVER be able to defeat me, 100%!
Pay4Advantage, simply means that one can pay for an advantage over another, but is still not guaranteed victory by 100% surety.
There will always be the human factor, as well as advantage matching by paying for those advantages others have, so this will always squash the term Pay2Win.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Again, that still isnt Pay to Win, its Paying for personal impatience..
If a person pays an extra £5.00 at my local cinema when they book thier ticket, they can get in the doors early. They may well jump the line, but i'm still watching the same film, in the same room, its a personal choice not an enforced charge.
And using the new crafting system is a bad example, ive been doing 'cheap' daily missions on 5 characters and will have all schools to level 15 by the 14th of October, is that not a suitable time frame?
Besides, there is no "win" in the PvE portion of an MMO. It's never ending through expansions and gear progression.
Lastly, STO was not on it's last leg when it went F2P. Perfect World acquired Cryptic. Perfect World's model is F2P. All of Criptic's games converted to their F2P model, as was most likely in a contract. Even the as yet released Neverwinter was converted to F2P.
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
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However, if you look at the definition of Pay to Win, you will see that they heavily push it. Pay to Win: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate, and then makes the game largely unbalanced, even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Therefore, P2W doesn't mean that you are guarantied a 100% win. It also doesn't mean that the game requires a subscription. What it does mean is if the game will allow you to spend money to get better gear (Including through the upgrade system), our make better gear (The crafting system) than others at a "faster rate" and then makes the game unbalanced, then it is P2W. Also, if you look at the definition, it also says that it gives this advantage over "people who have skill in the game without paying."
Therefore, the way that they are creating more and more things that require large amounts of Dil, they are making it hard for most players to get any of the new, or upgraded things they will need for the new content. If the developers are not lying about how difficult the new Elite only content is going to be, and not lying about what is needed for it, then they are blocking the content from players that don't have good enough gear for it, no matter how good their skills are.
Now, it has been proven that some of the hype they push is a lot of fluff. And I do hope that this is the case, and that a T5, or T5-U ship can do the Elite content without needing more than MK XII fleet weapons, and normal Rep gear. However, if they do require the best gear, and ships, then it is pushing the P2W on most of the players.
I am disabled, and have no income. For that reason, I have been grinding for just about everything I have in the game. I have no problem grinding to get what I want, and others being able to pay to get it much faster. However, since everything they come out with that requires large amounts of Dil, it means that it will take a very long time for me to my gear on my ships upgraded.
If they had halfway decent Dil prices on the stuff, then it wouldn't be a problem. But since they are requiring such high amounts of Dil, I am not planning on wasting resources on any of the upgrades. I have decided to stop grinding, and enjoy the game.
They can keep their greedy attitude. I will play the content I can, and the content I can't, I will just let others play it, and I will watch the videos on youtube.
Also, just to clear up something about whether or not someone is elite just because they have the gear for it, that is wrong. I know of a lot of other players that ate not upgrading anything on their ships because of the outrageous prices to do so. Just because they may not have the upgraded gear, it doesn't mean that they are incompetent, or there is something wrong with them. That is the worst attitude to have toward others.
A lot of times people forget that it is just a game, and they start treating others that they think are not as good as them as inferior, stupid, or just lower than them. Having the best quality ship, gear, and flying skills doesn't make you a better person. Just better at killing things. You attitude is what determines whether you are a better person. I have seen many that are not good at the Elite STFs we now have that are far better than some of the "Elite" players out there. And I would rather fly with ones like them, than those "Elite" players that think they are better than others because they can mash a button on their keyboard.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
At least this form of addiction usually doesn't do any type of lasting damage unlike some others. There are certainly lots of regrets about purchasing some ingame item, but I have never heard of someone mugging a person so they can buy lockbox keys.
That is exactly what I am looking out now, how much longer will this money sink be around and continue? So fat myself and many others over the years have given, given, and given, and that's our choice, but its also our choice when to stop as well.
Lots of posts came up about lock boxes, many felt the same way then, as this is making people feel now. The gambling aspect of the game is rising once again, gambling on gear upgrades you SHOULD be able to get through a simple purchas is now a random dice roll, and they expect us to be giddy over that?
Nope, wallet is closed PWE, that's my call.
Have you ever stopped to wonder, why definitions for games, are just other people's definition, and not that of everyone?
Hmmm, probably not, and just follow what TRIBBLE they say it is, without so much as consciously thinking it over!
I mean by their definition, there is no actual Pay2Win, because you cannot win anything by that definition.
I have paid for things in game, it hasn't won me nothing, I can & still do lose, so therefore I didn't Pay2Win!
I did however Pay4advantage, I did Pay4Power, but I by know means Paid2Win, because there is no sure fire guarantee of a win. EVER!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Just to be clear: I am not denying the possibility that the game wasn't doing too well pre-F2P.
But we no nothing, except that Cryptic was the only asset atari had that was making money (Based on the annual financial statement thing, as best I could decode it).
It may or may not have been bad off... We just don't know, and until someone makes an actual document showing numbers accessible to us, we will never know... Despite what people claim.
But even if STO was making Atari a profit in 2011, lots of us have heard the horror stories about when Atari was selling Cryptic off like no cups in the Cryptic's kitchen. STO couldn't have survived for long and we certainly wouldn't the decent new content that STO now has if Atari was still in charge and bleeding Cryptic dry.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Some interesting ideas.... It would be nice of course to get player housing before any of it however for even more purchase madness and mayhem.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Rumor has it that Cryptic was sold for some 50 Mil to PWE, which brought Atari into black numbers for god knows how long.
Well, if you want to nit pick every little detail, then you are right. But, by doing that, there are a lot of other definitions that can be shredded. Like the term "Fly by wire." By nit picking, you can say that since the plane is not actually connected to wires that it flies along, it is not "fly by wire" it is "fly by air."
The point is to look at the entire definition, not just what you can pick out to help support your side of the discussion. For example, it says that they are "games that let you to buy better gear, or allow you to make better items than everyone else as a faster rate..." It doesn't say it is required to do so, but that they let you.
Then, it says "...and then makes the game largely unbalanced, even for people who have skill in the game without paying." This is what is happening when ones are able to use money to gain an advantage quicker.
So, by looking at the definition, it is a general definition of the term. Paying for advantage, or power is covered by that. If every definition for games were nit picked to death like you do, then you will have to say that the game is Pay for Power, Pay for Advantage, Pay for Convenience, Pay for Laziness, Pay for Ships, Pay for Upgrades, etc. The list can go on, and on. However, if you can use one term that covers all of those, like Pay to Win, it makes it easier.
Also, if the game is setup to require someone to have certain gear, or ships to beat a certain mission, and without it you will fail, without question, then by allowing one to buy the items faster than others can grind the resources to get it, it has become Pay to Win. Still doesn't mean a guaranty of a win, but without better gear, you cannot win at all, that is Pay to Win.
About the definition for games, there are terms, and phrases that use general definitions. Those definitions are designed to cover more than one thing. For example, in the gaming community, the word "Tank" means that someone's character can take a lot of damage. But, by nit picking it like you are doing the term Pay to Win, only games that have actual "Tanks" like in real life can have "Tanks" in them. Someone that takes a lot of damage is just a "Character that can take a lot of damage."
When referring to gaming terms, the definitions are based off how it is used the most. The same as dictionaries that are not gaming dictionaries. There are words in the dictionaries that have definitions added, or changed completely, due to how the words are used the most. That is why some words from 30, 50, even 60 years ago have different definitions than they do now. It is based off of how they are used during the times the definition is written. Doesn't mean every single person in the world uses them like that, but the majority do.
If it just let's you go to the same place faster, it's not really pay-to-win. If money is the only way to get to the top gear, than it is pay-to-win.
Cryptic's model is not pay-to-win, but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with problems. IMO, the whole system works really well at not forcing to people to spend money on it to get better equipment, but there is still every incentive for Cryptic to put in more powerful stuff in the game that is most easiest to access with money. That means there is a constant power creep (bad for PvE content, as stuff gets easier and things that used to be challenges stop being challenges), and power imbalances (bad for PvP, as old stuff is less powerful and you get less variety - everyone needs to have the newest lockbox ship).
The whole lockbox thing is another problematic business practice for me. It basically inflates the price of stuff in the game for those that are able and willing to pay for it.
They don't convince anyone of anything, just bog another thread down in an endless loop of arguing over the label.
Good luck with that.
If you want something now, you can pay to speed it up. If not, then it may take you a few days, weeks, months, depending upon what you're doing.
So it all depends when do you want something, and how much work do you want to put into it.
I will tell you why, thats how they make their money so they can give us more content.
I think many people only see what's right in front of them and not the bigger picture.
The longer it takes people to do REP, R&D, and upgrade gear the longer they will play.
Running a fleet we see people come and go because people level up then don't have a reason to stay around. Fleet and groups can only do so much to keep people playing, thank you Cryptic for adding long term goals to the game.
Another de-rail by a developer apologist who doesn't know anything about gaming, how shocking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shocker_%28hand_gesture%29
A 0.0001 % advantage in stats, you can only buy is pay2win.
It has zero do with what you think it means. It has nothing to do with scripting the game to autopilot as you are talking about.
Just one time before I die, I'd like to see a developer apologist bring up an actual point instead of trolling the debate with nitpicking and word splitting.
Just 1 time bring up a point, just 1 time
But I do appreciate how hard the devs work. Even in this downtime. I'm sure they're working hard to fix the issue.
Here's one, complaining about pay to win in a free to play game is asinine. The entire monetary system in nearly any game like this is based on the option to use real currency to acquire game content. And in something like STO which features combat a lot of that content is naturally going to have some sort of desirable tactical advantage. What STO does however is ensure that all but a few token ships and perks are available to players if they want to put the time into the system instead (and that very much includes the new systems).
If you have a problem with this format, play a different kind of game.
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If you need to pay to win pve or stfs, you should just uninstall and stop being a burden to the people you queue with in group finder. Pvp is broken period. It's not p2w either.
Thanks but I had actually said sto was not pay2win and was mocking some apologist for saying it was a feature in which "if I pay money I win the whole game while being afk"
Which of course would require only 1 person or 1 team to have a pay2win option so I found that hilarious
If I don't like go somewhere else? If you don't like what you see on the forum, you go somewhere else how is that?
Complainers made the world what it is, all change comes from people who want things to get better.
Them other people are the real threat to society figuratively speaking and buttom line.