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Paying to win, its what people wanted
stoneloki
Member Posts: 304 Arc User
I posted this in another thread but I'll repeat it here.....
This all started when the rep system changed, all those nice rep perks got locked away, because grinding to win doesn't make them money. People that have been playing this game since launch that don't PVP don't really make them money, casual gamers don't make them money.
Paying to win, now that makes them money, paying to be powerful, that makes them money.....
All you old timers like me that have been around forever, bought almost everything in game, paid and paid and paid, well we aren't useful unless we KEEP paying. get it?
When it became clear that how long you've been playing didn't matter anymore, that the rep system rewards were now locked behind a 4 buff gate, I said this was coming, and here it is.
You wanna be elite? you want to feel powerful? All those people that complained and moaned about power creep, A2B builds, how people that have been here longer were sooooo much more powerful, well PWE listened, and this is their answer.
Wanna win in PVE? Pay
Wanna win in STF's? Pay
Wanna win in PVP? well its always been like that
Wanna be Elite? Don't worry we won't make you grind, just give us money!
Its what people wanted, now they have it
_______________________________________________________________________________
That's the way it is, people SCREAMED for change, power creep was sooooo horrible, A2B was sooooooo OP! People who have been here for 5 years were SOOOOO OP, and rightly so.
Anyone who complained, anyone who moaned, all you people that called them cheaters when they totaled the Borg in a STF, this is what you get, this is how they are making YOU happy.
Its not a grind anymore, how long you have been here doesn't matter, its how good your manners are, how big your pocket book is......
Enjoy, its what you asked for, those that constantly complained.
This all started when the rep system changed, all those nice rep perks got locked away, because grinding to win doesn't make them money. People that have been playing this game since launch that don't PVP don't really make them money, casual gamers don't make them money.
Paying to win, now that makes them money, paying to be powerful, that makes them money.....
All you old timers like me that have been around forever, bought almost everything in game, paid and paid and paid, well we aren't useful unless we KEEP paying. get it?
When it became clear that how long you've been playing didn't matter anymore, that the rep system rewards were now locked behind a 4 buff gate, I said this was coming, and here it is.
You wanna be elite? you want to feel powerful? All those people that complained and moaned about power creep, A2B builds, how people that have been here longer were sooooo much more powerful, well PWE listened, and this is their answer.
Wanna win in PVE? Pay
Wanna win in STF's? Pay
Wanna win in PVP? well its always been like that
Wanna be Elite? Don't worry we won't make you grind, just give us money!
Its what people wanted, now they have it
_______________________________________________________________________________
That's the way it is, people SCREAMED for change, power creep was sooooo horrible, A2B was sooooooo OP! People who have been here for 5 years were SOOOOO OP, and rightly so.
Anyone who complained, anyone who moaned, all you people that called them cheaters when they totaled the Borg in a STF, this is what you get, this is how they are making YOU happy.
Its not a grind anymore, how long you have been here doesn't matter, its how good your manners are, how big your pocket book is......
Enjoy, its what you asked for, those that constantly complained.
Post edited by stoneloki on
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Introduction of the Rep system? No... Futher back.
Lockboxes? Fiuther...
F2P? Futher...
You gotta go ALL the way back to the original release of the GalaxyX through the rep system...
While yes, it's been silently micromanaged, that was when people started predicting that we would go down this road eventually.
Me personally? I was rather naive and new to the MMO world back then and rejected people... But now... I feel I owe them an apology.
Of cause they've all left by now.
Of course it is only P2W for PvPers. For a PvEer you are not actually winning anything.
The galaxyX was released before the Excelsior... Through referral yes, but still...
First off, "pay2win" has the mandatory distinction that you cannot obtain the same stats/abilities/advantages without paying.
Since you can grind it here for free, the term pay2win is invalidated in this particular case.
If you want to put a term on cryptic's payment model it's play4dil and cash4play.
Meaning, you play (spend time) for dil, but, you can skip that time with cash.
You buy other people's time or they buy your cash with time and that's actually somewhat unique model.
It's also why at any time you always have to seperate those 2 categories of people when you pass judgement on a gameplay feature.
Now, from the time they introduced f2p - our current regime dating 2 years back, the treaty has been you earn dil for playing maps and then items costs dil.
Thus you can skip the playing queue by buying zen and convert to dil.
This would for example apply to the reputation system where items cost dil you have to spend time earning or buy the same dil with cash.
Where it gets fuzzy, and where my personal objection is at, people paying are still getting screwed:
If we go back to time for dil, cash for time remember the concept was to not waste time if you pay.
Problem is, paying people still have to grind out marks and sit behind timegates, not actually honoring the agreement.
To me as a non-sub this is the major flaw with the system that in my opinion robs subscribers and cash people blind because it's based off the main premise of the game.
If you spend cash you save time.
I believe cryptic are always trying to see how far people will accept being pushed.
When they rolled out the reputation system, they wanted you to pay dil for it in addition to wasting your time.
If people hadn't flipped out that would have happened.
Now 2 years later they have the exact same concept being pushed in different window:
"click a button to give us money and come back in 20 hours" (to give us more)
So nothing of what is happening is even remotely new or different.
From the get-go they have tried to minimize what rewards you resources (right down to being as pitiful as vendor trash) and optimize how to milk you for re-used content (stf drops, now t5u and upgrades) so they dont have to add animations - the only difference being this time people are falling for it and accepting it.
You can "win" in all PvE w/looted gear. If you personally can't, then it's your fault.
Cheers! /10char
Visit my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Akurie369?feature=watch
Captain Bi Shonen's official Thread! http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=22866531#post22866531
If you are a Sub, or F2P player, it always came down to a grind before, didn't matter how much EC or Dil you had, it took time to get the good things in game, rep ALWAYS took time, even with the tokens it took time, effort, drive, to get all that rep gear and rep rewards.
Now, there is a way to speed through that, with real money, there is a way to skip the grind, with real money, there is way to get the best gear, with real money.
Took me half an hour to go from all 12 fleet gear, a complete polaron beam set, AP cannons, Spire tac cons, Dil mine ENG Cons, Elite Fleet warp core, and all my ground gear, and make it 13, why so fast? Because I paid, no matter how it works out, someone paid, is paying, to jump the shark as quickly as possible.
That is P2W
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1223171
I know it's not the pvp community as a whole so it's not to debunk your argument but, at least some people want to have fun without all the creep
Never said I couldn't, I've been playing this for four years, maybe check your facts bud. However SOME people DO feel this way, and if they are new, well maybe this is a TRIBBLE load for them to absorb.
Again I'll say no one should be made to feel that in order to feel powerful, they have to do this, and that's exactly what they are making it look like.
I think what you all are doing is great and you should be commended bud, takes stones to stand up and not let them force you to do what they want you to do!
Cheers mate!
Then they'd gate EC income and the forums would fill w/QQ threads about that. Go buy a game on steam if you want, let others buy their ship packs. It's all about choices.
Completely agree with this bud, its never gonna end though. What is the point of all this? We want more of your money, that simple.
I will be the first to say I used to stand in line, smiling, yelling at Cryptic, then PWE, to take my money! Was fairly simple, I picked what I wanted, and bought it. There isn't one fed ship I don't own, I;ve got all the lock box ships but the Elachi, 6 toons maxed out with rep gear and fleet gear, and now the circle starts a new, and at the end, when there is nothing, and all I spent has gone no where, what will I have, what good did it do?
I'll pay for ships, I'll pay to have fun, I won't pay over, and over, and over, for the same item that's just a little shinier.
Sorry, when people talk about pay to win, the general concensus or understanding is a cost, to the individual concerned, in real world money; not time, not in game currency, unless said individual has paid for it with real world money. There is no demand or need to open your wallet, that is a choice that you make. From an individuals perspective, everything in game can be obtained with grind and time.
I only pay when I don't feel like grinding dilithium for Zen if I want to purchase something from the C-Store.
For PvP'ers... is there a F2P game out there that is not P2W? If there is then it probably means new players would never be able to compete with long established players making the early adopters of that game the defacto winners.
I'm sorry, maybe you failed to see the point. IF you don't do this, you get left behind, elitism rules, you get left out, and hence people HAVE paid to win.
It clearly states in the New STF post, if you are undergeared you will fail and be removed. You wanna be elite, powerful, you'll pay for it, that simple.
Sorry, but if you've been 'swept up' in the culture of elitism, you have nobody to blame but yourself. 'New' Elite is not designed with everybody in mind, it's made for the best of the best of the best, like No Win Scenario is (or arguably, was.) It's not supposed to be completable by everyone, and that is not a failing of game design.
Learn to play the game the way YOU enjoy it, not the way others tell you it must be played.
Wow no one listens these day, I can't stand elitism, but that's what they are pushing here, maybe "read up" a little before saying anyone is "elite"
If you don't like the idea of a true challenge, one that requires real teamwork, co-ordination and skill, then don't play Elite. That content is NOT being designed with you in mind.
Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean that others who do shouldn't be allowed to have it.
If you don't have the patients to save up maybe...but who's fault is that...not Cryptics.
If there is one thing I've learned in many years of playing this game it's not the gear that makes someone it's the player. I've seen people completely fail in Scimitars and I've seen people do great in free T5 ships.
Trouble is most people fail or simply just good enough to pass...they think it's there ship and they think buying something like the Scimitar or the Tempest will make them better...well newsflash...it wont.
This game is definitely a lot more skill based than gear based...not like lets say WoW again for example...a scrub in full out PvP gear has a chance to beat a good PvPer in regular gear simply because the PvP stats in WoW give so much protection and damage the PvPer wouldn't have.
But in STO you can put a scrub in full MK XII gear against a PvPer in much weaker gear and they have a much better chance of winning because they know what they're doing.
Why don't we be honest here now? There are a lot of people who aren't very good at this game...they think they're better than they are and they think that they aren't better because they don't have the top gear or newest ship.
One can play this game and have an end game ship with fleet and rep gear without spending anything other than time. This invalidates the p2w label. Pay to get it faster? or Pay to avoid some grind? I would agree with that.
Although I DO recall a FEW posts asking for more challenging content, I do not recall forum threads with anyone "asking for p2w" The connection between more challenging content and "asking for p2w" seems tenuous at best. But perhaps i missed the threads you refer to.. perhaps you would be so kind as to link the thread or threads where somone "asked for p2w" ??
Its the point, to incite people with low playtime but big wallets to speed themselves up.
The problem is when the company starts to make the game unbearable for the player who will not buy stuff.
Bingo!
And if proves succesful they will introduce new tiers faster and faster with higher and higher cost.
I really expect sometimes down the line ships for $100 with clowns explaining how you don't need it and how it's not so much money.
I would have agreed with you, but that new Elite Only Queue refutes your claim. With NWS, anyone could play it and see how far they go, but with Battle of Korfez, the first stage limits who is able to experience the other stages. Therefore, you have to be really skilled at playing the game and have decent equipment or compensate for your lack of skill with the best equipment available. So to play Battle of Korfez, I either need to optimize my ship and get the best equipment or just watch some videos of more talented players doing it. I can't do the Normal or Advanced version to experience this content. So Cryptic is now pushing elitism for at least one portion of their game.
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Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
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So.....get good then. Problem solved. Shouldn't only Elite players be in an elite queue? It wasn't made for random no-skills to play.
I run a fleet dreadnought with all vr Mk xii fleet weapons, Mk xii jem'hadar space set and vr Mk xii consoles. If I get utterly destroyed playing elite queues I will either upgrade or not play elite queues. Missing out for awhile on a very very very very very small portion of an otherwise very very large game, in no way, seems like a big deal.
That said... Cryptic has made a built-in-defense against P2W - you can always grind for Dilithium and use the Dilithium Exchange. That means no one is forced into spending real world money to get what he wants. That's great.
Unfortunately, that doesn't change the other problem of P2W - that the devs continually have to introduce stuff that gives more power, so that people have a reason to want it, and some will end up picking the non-grindy-route for it and pay money.
But that's also a problem with the players themselves - people were not willing to pay the subscription prices it needed to keep the game running with continual updates.
People are also not content with just getting stuff that gives alternate choices. They want power-ups. The whole reputation revamp rage is just an example. "WHat, reputations are now useless, if I can't use all the abilities once!" Side-Way advancement is not what sells, even if it's the only thing that can keep the game sane.
So yes, I think Cryptic is giving people exactly what they want. Or at least they give people that are willing to spend money for it what they want. The more you are willing to pay for, the more you are getting of it, and the less you are willin to pay, the more likely things happen you don't actually want. Harsh, money grubbing, or just sensible business that couldn't really work any other way?
I suppose it could work another way - Cryptic could decide to sell its expansion packs. But they once promised that they would not do that. If they break that promise, how many people would be angry? What would be the consequence for the free players that don't want to buy a full expansion pack?
Well, the fundamental would still be the same thing - Cryptic would make stuff that earns them money. It would just be different stuff. Maybe some would like it more, maybe others would hate the result. Just like now.