What stops me you ask? No one speaks in pve content for one, I do, of course, socialize with my fleet, but the overall attitude of the gaming community in the days since I am speaking of is simply toxic, obviously inflammatory responses like yours are a good sign of this.
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Inflammatory doesnt mean what you think it means. Your paranoia is a bit much.
Inflammatory doesnt mean what you think it means. Your paranoia is a bit much.
It was quite inflammatory in trying to state I didn't know what I was talking about, like my statement was somehow invalid. My experiences are different than yours, you have no grounds to judge exactly what that means. No right whatsoever.
Just an observation, but that's how the world works, and it will never change. It's human nature to form opinions and pass judgment frequently on incomplete and/or inaccurate information.
I was done with my statement at that point anyway, I would have thought that it should have been clear I was trying to let it go and and common courtesy would follow to do the same! Unless someone was trying to rile up trouble, which they did, and I noticed did so nitpicking in another thread where it was not necessary.
It was quite inflammatory in trying to state I didn't know what I was talking about, like my statement was somehow invalid. My experiences are different than yours, you have no grounds to judge exactly what that means. No right whatsoever.
By asking you a question? are you sure you replied to the right person?
PS I have every "right" to judge whatever I want
PPS Inflammatory still doesnt mean what you think it means
It's essentially another reputation daily timegate with an added dil sink button.
Only this time around no animations and no new gear AND it's even a double layered dil sink in which after you are done, the aim is you throw potentially millions of dil at rebuying your old gear..
locked behind timegates.
So you are essentially wasting time you have no control over to unlock PERMISSION to give them dil for all re-cycled content, hilarious
That's so many layers of horrible it easily takes the no. 1 spot for terrible systems.
I think you are starting to feel the situation intuitively but it hasn't reached you cognitively yet.
The irony you are feeling is you contradicting yourself on a level of debate that is going over your head.
For example look at the last thing you said. You open up saying "whatever everyone says is wrong becase everything is complex"...
You just said "you can never generalize". Never IS a generalization.
The double paradox of saying that aside, you litterly follow that with an essay on your opinion which are ALL pure "absolutes".
Anyway, back to topic at hand. Mmos don't need timegates - even sto didn't have them before.
Timegates are the lowest form of artificial gameplay that should be spat on REGARDLESSLY if they are, have been or will be mandatory - in this game or in any other, historically, metaphorically, ethically, financially.
What you tried to inject into the convo changes nothing. You said the earth wasn't round I say okay thanks for your contribution.
The point in case is, timegates are terrible gameplay and they make us hate the game.
If the moon is purple, we hate them timegates. If jesus landed in an UFO we hate them, if you have bacon on your pizza tonight or order one tomorrow...
We (us non-apologists or we in our right mind) hate the game for it period.
Then I added to you before, I don't think you are ready to hang in a convo like this, BASED on your best effort being trying to de-rail trolling indifferent nitpicking that has nothing to do with the debate.
And of course, you nitpicked that too so there you go
Time gates are the opposite of player control.
Time gates are the opposite of gameplay.
Time gates are the opposite of recreational time.
Time gates are teh opposite of relaxing.
I could go on all day.
Here is how people see it clean and simple. If your game is fun I will AUTOMATICALLY play it you don't have to whip me left and right.
And when obviously they don't have FAITH in themselves to create a fun game we got PROBLEMS
/edit
ps. the case I am trying to make us no paying gamer should have to cope with a game being TRIBBLE. They bank-rolling the operation so they are the developers where tacofangs etc. are essentially clerks doing 3d studio max or whatever for us.
The gaming industry is the only unregulated industry if you discount opium production in south america and so there is this perception that they should be treated like demi-gods, at least they'd like that, not employees working at starbucks for that cup of coffee you just bought.
It breaks my heart everytime I see some kid call himself a fan or hold them to 3rd reich standards, rationalizing that "well that's what they said so it's true, we have our orders", talking strictly trusting authority blindly here
All that to say, gaming like everything else HAS to evolve and progress and since this industry is UNREGULATED, it's up to YOU and ME to get things done, because if the developers have THEIR way it's going to get dumber and simpler and easier a job for them for MORE of your money
you really do need to assume and put alot of words in my mouth to make your point.
anyway, why on earth would you want to regulate an industry that is essentialy art and more importantly not essential to society like the food, pharma, energy industry?
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for regulations in those sectors since it affect everyones lives profoundly, but come on, do you think regulating art makes sense or how they should sell their artwork?
You really need to take a step back and think about that 3rd reich comment and if your point has any validity when it comes to art.
A few reasons why i very much like most of the time gating in STO:
1) It doesn't force me to play the game on end to reach a competitive level of gear. A daily visit of 1h is sufficent.
2) Once new content is out i do not have to pay for it and i can play the new content as much as i want. (no lockout on singlepalyer missions, and relative short lockout on multiplayer missions)
To progress in the game, i do not need to play excessively for hours and days...i can keep progressing at my 1h per day rate.
3) If i want to skip the timegating, i can do so...and that is cryptics main income source. And this is not an obligatory fee it is a choice.
I think it has come up now numerous times, but time gating in MMOs has a purely technical reason too, which is that no company can produce content at the same pace that people play through it...if there was no timegating, each patch would collapse the server infrastructure, and 3 days later the game would be EMPTY. This has nothing to do with cash grab or evil conspiracy, it simply is not possible to produce content at the same rate that people play it.
I can agree that some timegating in STO is excessive, like the 2 minutes for a piece of gear in the reputation system, or the 5-30 seconds for a crafting component (although this one obviously is meant for the really impatient among players)
This is something debateable, the rest simply isn't, atleast not in an MMO that wants to function and survive on the market.
So timegating isn't just bad or good for a game and its playerbase, just as the world isn't just round. If you can't see that, then there is no base for you to discuss this matter, since you are not adequately informed or simply chose to ignore half of it.
It's essentially another reputation daily timegate with an added dil sink button.
Only this time around no animations and no new gear AND it's even a double layered dil sink in which after you are done, the aim is you throw potentially millions of dil at rebuying your old gear..
locked behind timegates.
So you are essentially wasting time you have no control over to unlock PERMISSION to give them dil for all re-cycled content, hilarious
That's so many layers of horrible it easily takes the no. 1 spot for terrible systems.
I thought I was the only one to think the system was an insidious "double dip" design. Fleeties tell me I over think things too much but I always look at stuff from an "input vs output" dimension maybe I'm crazy like that....
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
you really do need to assume and put alot of words in my mouth to make your point.
anyway, why on earth would you want to regulate an industry that is essentialy art and more importantly not essential to society like the food, pharma, energy industry? Don't get me wrong, i'm all for regulations in those sectors since it affect everyones lives profoundly, but come on, do you think regulating art makes sense or how they should sell their artwork?
[..]
That is the same argument that banks make about their services. Funny how people have different priorities and what affects them "profoundly". Also where do you draw the line? How about clothing, music, cars, -etc.... Hell I dont eat vegetables so dont regulate that food as it is simply not important enough. See where I'm going with this?
You regulate it because they are exploiting customers because they can do it. As you said they dont care about us so why or why should we care about them? if the regulations becomes to much then let them close up shop another company will come along sooner or later. It is the capitalist mantra anyway...
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
That is the same argument that banks make about their services. Funny how people have different priorities and what affects them "profoundly". Also where do you draw the line? How about clothing, music, cars, -etc.... Hell I dont eat vegetables so dont regulate that food as it is simply not important enough. See where I'm going with this?
You regulate it because they are exploiting customers because they can do it. As you said they dont care about us so why or why should we care about them? if the regulations becomes to much then let them close up shop another company will come along sooner or later. It is the capitalist mantra anyway...
yes i see where you are going...and it is not what i intended to say...not even in the slightest. And quite frankly it is just nitpicking.
further, what would you think a regulation for the gaming industry would look like?
here is what i think: Even more timegating so that people are actually forced to stop playing after certain hours.
The exploit happens on a voluntary basis...you choose to progress quicker through the content. You do not choose to take insuline against your diabetes.
You do not choose to take in sustenance, you need to.
You do not choose to wear cloth, you need to...otherwise you freeze to death.
you very much choose to play STO, or any other game for that matter. If you feel exploited, stop playing! It is not essential for your life.
If you feel like the inner workings of the gaming industry affects you profoundly as a gamer, i'd say you have a severe mental problem aka. gambling addiction.
i won't comment on this any further since the bases for a balanced discussion does not exist, if such things are brought up on a discussion about timegating in MMOs. Life priorities of some individuals seem to be way off when looking at the statements such as these.
I haven't seen you bring up 5% worth of a point yet.
You say you are done commenting, I don't think you started yet.
What you typed so far barely reaches out of context copy-paste parroting.
Like when you said "there are never any absolutes" it comes down to you not knowing the terminology of the field you are trying to evoke in addition to not understanding the meaning of what you are saying.
Here is an example. "If you don't like it don't play", "no one is forcing you to play".
Now, that - could - be a wonderful arguement but you still copy-paste it and parrot it around town without reading your own banner.
"If you don't like the forum post, don't post", "no one is forcing you to post".
I feel like I am talking to cleverbot.com, yes it text, yes teh grammer checks out but there is no cognition there, it's just pre-determined responses.
The one you copy-posted "then don't play" could potentially be THE most parroted response in the history of the internet.
To qualify as "intelligence", both you and cleverbot, need several layers that are currently missing.
Either word split or nitpick, or bring up a cliche phrase that never made any sense to begin with, are static scripts that will be the same 14 years from now, just like cleverbot.
It's like a black guy in a hollywood movie, "damn!", "aw sh.." then a variation on "daaaamn!".
Or "aw sh.. daaamn!"
Let me give you some help, here would be some points you could bring up:
a. cryptic needs the money badly, they haven't sold anything for 6-8 months - they wouldn't do it unless they really had to
b. yes, this is the deepest and most terrible sink to date, but cryptic are making an eternal one, so they can stop wasting time on day to day short time thinkin, and start producing the content they know we love, that has been royally neglected, exploration, pvp etc.
c. it's not really cryptic doing it. It's not really al rivera's ideas we are seeing here. They are as much slaves to the men in suits, as we are, however cryptic still fights the good fight standing up for the players and at least making sure it doesn't turn pay2win.
Those would be examples of contributing to the convo instead of nitpicking someone's grammer to de-rail as you've been up until now.
The difference being you present new information rather than trying to discredit the people that do.
In my opinion you are still not qualifed to post on a forum but now you have something new to think about so good luck
not my fault if you ignore some fundamental things at play here...i can only show them to you, i can't make you understand them.
If looking at something only through your eyes and utterly ignoring other perspectives makes you feel better, so be it. I can enjoy the game without paying a dime...that is pretty much the most important factor for me.
not my fault if you ignore some fundamental things at play here...i can only show them to you, i can't make you understand them.
If looking at something only through your eyes and utterly ignoring other perspectives makes you feel better, so be it. I can enjoy the game without paying a dime...that is pretty much the most important factor for me.
How ironic..... It is because of people like you that the community must suffer such TRIBBLE mechanics in the first place. It seems you should take heed of your own commentary and adjust your priorities..... :rolleyes:
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
I said that from the get-go, he can't do 1 sentence without royally contradicting himself.
He is talking over his own head and this debate is light years above.
Badul, it's fair to use personal anologies or anecdotes to paint a picture - but the overall point is the total sum health of the game and not your personal preferences.
The understood implication, you missed, being if the health of the game goes down low enough, you won't have a game to "enjoy the game without paying a dime" as you put it.
That's about having a broader scope than a 2 degree angle in front of yourself and then apply that to all factors such as time, financial interests and obligations, player metrics etc. etc.
As such it's not really that relevant if you personally are okay with something, unless you can put into a context and bring up a point
How ironic..... It is because of people like you that the community must suffer such TRIBBLE mechanics in the first place. It seems you should take heed of your own commentary and adjust your priorities..... :rolleyes:
What if a lot of the players actually think like that, and this is why the game works and is successful?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
You people really need to stop complaining about the "spending real money aspect" when that aspect is purely voluntary and not mandatory. It doesn't even give you an advantage ingame other than "i have it today" instead of tomorrow.
If you have a problem with controling your expenses it is not the developers fault at all...
should the game ever demand money from me for content and i don't think it is worth it, i don't spend it. If i find it worth spending my real cash, i'll do it (and i have done it in the past through subscription). Simple as that. It is not a contradiction, it is a choice. Seems to me that your gaming addiction has robbed you guys of that choice.
But i guess for somebody that only thinks in black and white, anything inbetween is a contradiction.
If you feel like the inner workings of the gaming industry affects you profoundly as a gamer, i'd say you have a severe mental problem aka. gambling addiction.
If you have a problem with controling your expenses it is not the developers fault at all...
To an extent you are right as there are people out there that do have gambling addictions. Actually, funny you should use the phrase "gambling" instead of gaming. Just shows that you admit there are aspects of this game that are pure unadulterated gambling. Nothing to do with playing an MMO.
Anyway, there is another side to that aspect that you are missing and that is the fact that gaming companies (especially f2p models) are putting in mechanics that aid in getting you addicted. I s**t you not. This is a real thing and something that may have to be regulated in the future.
Here's a funny and informative article that explains some of the mechanics behind the f2p model. Cracked.com F2P games article
To an extent you are right as there are people out there that do have gambling addictions. Actually, funny you should use the phrase "gambling" instead of gaming. Just shows that you admit there are aspects of this game that are pure unadulterated gambling. Nothing to do with playing an MMO.
Anyway, there is another side to that aspect that you are missing and that is the fact that gaming companies (especially f2p models) are putting in mechanics that aid in getting you addicted. I s**t you not. This is a real thing and something that may have to be regulated in the future.
Here's a funny and informative article that explains some of the mechanics behind the f2p model. Cracked.com F2P games article
Cheers!
yes, no doubt that this may need regulation and in certain cases it is anyway, but what is it good for when the problem is a phsychological issue. They need a doctor and not a set of rules which they probably ignore or try to evade.
I mean south korea has a strickt ban on gambling, even in games. Diablo 3 release was postponed for that reason in south korea, since the real money auction house was considered online gambling. They did it anyway, just on ebay.
Anyway, the word gambling addiction doesn't automaticly mean that money is involved. It is more about the feeling of gratification and the dependency people develope for it.
yes, no doubt that this may need regulation and in certain cases it is anyway, but what is it good for when the problem is a phsychological issue.
It is good in stopping companies from taking advantage of people with addictions or psychological issues. Like it or not, it's the way the world works. People will always try to take advantage of other peoples weaknesses. There are laws a regulations put in place to stop that happening, though sometimes it takes a long time before it happens.
Anyway, the word gambling addiction doesn't automaticly mean that money is involved. It is more about the feeling of gratification and the dependency people develope for it.
What you are describing there is simple addiction. Doesn't matter whether it is a drink, a needle, a smoke, money or a xindi cruiser. You feel gratification when you take it or get it and develop a dependency on that gratification; then you're addicted.
What you are describing there is simple addiction. Doesn't matter whether it is a drink, a needle, a smoke, money or a xindi cruiser. You feel gratification when you take it or get it and develop a dependency on that gratification; then you're addicted.
Cheers!
yes, but the definition of ludomania doesn't mention money...only "negative effects" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_gambling
and the word gambling, may also include gaming: "The word gaming is used more frequently since the rise of computer games to describe activities that do not necessarily involve wagering, especially online gaming, with the new usage still not having displaced the old usage as the primary definition in common dictionaries."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling
i'd rather educate people on the issue than to ban it. A ban only leads to illegality. I mean the failed war on drugs should illustrate that going after the provider isn't a strategy that actually solves the problem when it comes to addictions.
Instead, educating children and supporting addicts has proven to be more effective.
So you support implementation of mechanisms which actively promotes players spending less time in game.
That's inaccurate. The mechanisms simultaneously discourage long (though this is subjective) play sessions while heavily promoting regular (daily) game sessions.
Many MMOs do this via Dailies. GW2, WoW, they all have a variation of it. Your initial efforts every day are rewarded far more heavily than subsequent efforts, until it resets. There's a reason for that too - they don't want the hardcore minority to drive away the more casual majority by pricing things out of their reach.
It's the same reason that guilds (Fleets in STO) are heavily promoted. Studies have shown that players in guilds are more likely to keep playing. Wanting to keep people playing is also why they encourage daily attendance, a psychological trick to build a habit.
What if a lot of the players actually think like that, and this is why the game works and is successful?
If PWE is making more money, it means that the majority does, and the game is considered successful.
The fact that there's a grumpy minority complaining about having to spend money does not make the game unsuccessful by the only metric that matters - profitability.
It is good in stopping companies from taking advantage of people with addictions or psychological issues. Like it or not, it's the way the world works. People will always try to take advantage of other peoples weaknesses. There are laws a regulations put in place to stop that happening, though sometimes it takes a long time before it happens.
Until they make laws regulating the junk food and fast food industries, they should damn well leave the video game industry alone.
The former feed and encourage food addiction, causing an obesity epidemic and proliferation of self-harm sites like HAES, resulting in rising medical and welfare costs as well as reducing productivity. The latter just causes impotent rants on Internet forums. Unlike "gaming addictions" (that is, gambling) there are no downsides because it literally costs them nothing, since they're vehemently declaring they aren't going to pay for it.
Nice comment on things complete with empirical data to support it, I am sure someone made his teacher happy with correct citations and everything.
But it is just that, a comment on what is, that when you look at it over don't really say a whole lot, does it?
"They do it for money, their metrics tell them to", talk about nobel prize detective work eh.
Sounds like you live in a sad world too, "nothing I do matters" is like the 3rd step to fatalism before you take a shower with your toaster.
Listen, when developers pull off a nice little scam, such as making you rebuy your old ship and your old gear in expansion 2, the people eating it up raw might seemingly make the developers feel good through worship, but since you can only trick people below your level that doesn't actually count for anything.
1 negative comment from a guy who knows what he is talking about is worth every last single user praising them over dumb stuff.
Nice comment on things complete with empirical data to support it, I am sure someone made his teacher happy with correct citations and everything.
But it is just that, a comment on what is, that when you look at it over don't really say a whole lot, does it?
"They do it for money, their metrics tell them to", talk about nobel prize detective work eh.
Sounds like you live in a sad world too, "nothing I do matters" is like the 3rd step to fatalism before you take a shower with your toaster.
Listen, when developers pull off a nice little scam, such as making you rebuy your old ship and your old gear in expansion 2, the people eating it up raw might seemingly make the developers feel good through worship, but since you can only trick people below your level that doesn't actually count for anything.
1 negative comment from a guy who knows what he is talking about is worth every last single user praising them over dumb stuff.
This guys always types a whole lot without saying anything.
That's inaccurate. The mechanisms simultaneously discourage long (though this is subjective) play sessions while heavily promoting regular (daily) game sessions.
[..]
OK. I just wanted to clarify your actually position. So in effect you support group think conditioning for the player base via mechanical trickery designed to stymy player action and opportunity for supposedly long term revenue stream enhancement constructs.
Silly me... I just like to play and shockingly I like to spend money when I'm having fun in a game. I dont need conditioning to compel me to think a certain way based on what some one determines are normative social activities and pattern programming.
Anyway, I get that devs following such idiotic thinking because most people are simpletons statistically but they really should create some mechanism for the other folks..... Just sayin'....
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
What if a lot of the players actually think like that, and this is why the game works and is successful?
As it was said in some other post, This system work because when you have one player who never pay, you have some who pay for him. it's about balance.
Sadly when you have more people who never pay you need to make the one who pay, pay more. Like selling expensive stuff, making more system to pay and create more need to pay ...
Nice comment on things complete with empirical data to support it, I am sure someone made his teacher happy with correct citations and everything.
But it is just that, a comment on what is, that when you look at it over don't really say a whole lot, does it?
"They do it for money, their metrics tell them to", talk about nobel prize detective work eh.
Sounds like you live in a sad world too, "nothing I do matters" is like the 3rd step to fatalism before you take a shower with your toaster.
.
And nothing you have said here actually contributes a damn of anything useful to this discussion... Someone goes to the effort of forming a logical, reasoned argument, and since you cannot refute their statements, you resort to inference they should commit suicide... You're a sad, sad individual...
Listen, when developers pull off a nice little scam, such as making you rebuy your old ship and your old gear in expansion 2, the people eating it up raw might seemingly make the developers feel good through worship, but since you can only trick people below your level that doesn't actually count for anything.
1 negative comment from a guy who knows what he is talking about is worth every last single user praising them over dumb stuff.
And this is little more than blatant narcissism... You are implying that you are not only better than the Devs, but anyone who actually understands, even agrees, with their development decisions...
You are not a special unique snowflake... Fighting the power is not always necessary, and those who support it, are not always dupes or drones...
The real problem is, nothing you have to say about STO is positive... It leaves me bewildered why you even bother sticking around, since you seem to hate everything that Cryptic stand for...
And no, I don't need a narcissistic crusading white-knight-in-shining-pocket-protectors to defend my gaming experience from the evil, megalomaniacal Cryptic...
I am more than capable of making my own assessments, and decisions, on what is good for me and my gaming experiences...
Comments
Inflammatory doesnt mean what you think it means. Your paranoia is a bit much.
It was quite inflammatory in trying to state I didn't know what I was talking about, like my statement was somehow invalid. My experiences are different than yours, you have no grounds to judge exactly what that means. No right whatsoever.
I was done with my statement at that point anyway, I would have thought that it should have been clear I was trying to let it go and and common courtesy would follow to do the same! Unless someone was trying to rile up trouble, which they did, and I noticed did so nitpicking in another thread where it was not necessary.
By asking you a question? are you sure you replied to the right person?
PS I have every "right" to judge whatever I want
PPS Inflammatory still doesnt mean what you think it means
In an effort to not derail this thread any further and get mods in here, I am going to once again let this go. do the same.
You have no right whatsoever to say that to me in such an inflammatory way! Shame on you sir!
10charsandsuch
It's essentially another reputation daily timegate with an added dil sink button.
Only this time around no animations and no new gear AND it's even a double layered dil sink in which after you are done, the aim is you throw potentially millions of dil at rebuying your old gear..
locked behind timegates.
So you are essentially wasting time you have no control over to unlock PERMISSION to give them dil for all re-cycled content, hilarious
That's so many layers of horrible it easily takes the no. 1 spot for terrible systems.
you really do need to assume and put alot of words in my mouth to make your point.
anyway, why on earth would you want to regulate an industry that is essentialy art and more importantly not essential to society like the food, pharma, energy industry?
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for regulations in those sectors since it affect everyones lives profoundly, but come on, do you think regulating art makes sense or how they should sell their artwork?
You really need to take a step back and think about that 3rd reich comment and if your point has any validity when it comes to art.
A few reasons why i very much like most of the time gating in STO:
1) It doesn't force me to play the game on end to reach a competitive level of gear. A daily visit of 1h is sufficent.
2) Once new content is out i do not have to pay for it and i can play the new content as much as i want. (no lockout on singlepalyer missions, and relative short lockout on multiplayer missions)
To progress in the game, i do not need to play excessively for hours and days...i can keep progressing at my 1h per day rate.
3) If i want to skip the timegating, i can do so...and that is cryptics main income source. And this is not an obligatory fee it is a choice.
I think it has come up now numerous times, but time gating in MMOs has a purely technical reason too, which is that no company can produce content at the same pace that people play through it...if there was no timegating, each patch would collapse the server infrastructure, and 3 days later the game would be EMPTY. This has nothing to do with cash grab or evil conspiracy, it simply is not possible to produce content at the same rate that people play it.
I can agree that some timegating in STO is excessive, like the 2 minutes for a piece of gear in the reputation system, or the 5-30 seconds for a crafting component (although this one obviously is meant for the really impatient among players)
This is something debateable, the rest simply isn't, atleast not in an MMO that wants to function and survive on the market.
So timegating isn't just bad or good for a game and its playerbase, just as the world isn't just round. If you can't see that, then there is no base for you to discuss this matter, since you are not adequately informed or simply chose to ignore half of it.
I thought I was the only one to think the system was an insidious "double dip" design. Fleeties tell me I over think things too much but I always look at stuff from an "input vs output" dimension maybe I'm crazy like that....
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
That is the same argument that banks make about their services. Funny how people have different priorities and what affects them "profoundly". Also where do you draw the line? How about clothing, music, cars, -etc.... Hell I dont eat vegetables so dont regulate that food as it is simply not important enough. See where I'm going with this?
You regulate it because they are exploiting customers because they can do it. As you said they dont care about us so why or why should we care about them? if the regulations becomes to much then let them close up shop another company will come along sooner or later. It is the capitalist mantra anyway...
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
yes i see where you are going...and it is not what i intended to say...not even in the slightest. And quite frankly it is just nitpicking.
further, what would you think a regulation for the gaming industry would look like?
here is what i think: Even more timegating so that people are actually forced to stop playing after certain hours.
The exploit happens on a voluntary basis...you choose to progress quicker through the content. You do not choose to take insuline against your diabetes.
You do not choose to take in sustenance, you need to.
You do not choose to wear cloth, you need to...otherwise you freeze to death.
you very much choose to play STO, or any other game for that matter. If you feel exploited, stop playing! It is not essential for your life.
If you feel like the inner workings of the gaming industry affects you profoundly as a gamer, i'd say you have a severe mental problem aka. gambling addiction.
i won't comment on this any further since the bases for a balanced discussion does not exist, if such things are brought up on a discussion about timegating in MMOs. Life priorities of some individuals seem to be way off when looking at the statements such as these.
I haven't seen you bring up 5% worth of a point yet.
You say you are done commenting, I don't think you started yet.
What you typed so far barely reaches out of context copy-paste parroting.
Like when you said "there are never any absolutes" it comes down to you not knowing the terminology of the field you are trying to evoke in addition to not understanding the meaning of what you are saying.
Here is an example. "If you don't like it don't play", "no one is forcing you to play".
Now, that - could - be a wonderful arguement but you still copy-paste it and parrot it around town without reading your own banner.
"If you don't like the forum post, don't post", "no one is forcing you to post".
I feel like I am talking to cleverbot.com, yes it text, yes teh grammer checks out but there is no cognition there, it's just pre-determined responses.
The one you copy-posted "then don't play" could potentially be THE most parroted response in the history of the internet.
To qualify as "intelligence", both you and cleverbot, need several layers that are currently missing.
Either word split or nitpick, or bring up a cliche phrase that never made any sense to begin with, are static scripts that will be the same 14 years from now, just like cleverbot.
It's like a black guy in a hollywood movie, "damn!", "aw sh.." then a variation on "daaaamn!".
Or "aw sh.. daaamn!"
Let me give you some help, here would be some points you could bring up:
a. cryptic needs the money badly, they haven't sold anything for 6-8 months - they wouldn't do it unless they really had to
b. yes, this is the deepest and most terrible sink to date, but cryptic are making an eternal one, so they can stop wasting time on day to day short time thinkin, and start producing the content they know we love, that has been royally neglected, exploration, pvp etc.
c. it's not really cryptic doing it. It's not really al rivera's ideas we are seeing here. They are as much slaves to the men in suits, as we are, however cryptic still fights the good fight standing up for the players and at least making sure it doesn't turn pay2win.
Those would be examples of contributing to the convo instead of nitpicking someone's grammer to de-rail as you've been up until now.
The difference being you present new information rather than trying to discredit the people that do.
In my opinion you are still not qualifed to post on a forum but now you have something new to think about so good luck
If looking at something only through your eyes and utterly ignoring other perspectives makes you feel better, so be it. I can enjoy the game without paying a dime...that is pretty much the most important factor for me.
How ironic..... It is because of people like you that the community must suffer such TRIBBLE mechanics in the first place. It seems you should take heed of your own commentary and adjust your priorities..... :rolleyes:
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
He is talking over his own head and this debate is light years above.
Badul, it's fair to use personal anologies or anecdotes to paint a picture - but the overall point is the total sum health of the game and not your personal preferences.
The understood implication, you missed, being if the health of the game goes down low enough, you won't have a game to "enjoy the game without paying a dime" as you put it.
That's about having a broader scope than a 2 degree angle in front of yourself and then apply that to all factors such as time, financial interests and obligations, player metrics etc. etc.
As such it's not really that relevant if you personally are okay with something, unless you can put into a context and bring up a point
If you have a problem with controling your expenses it is not the developers fault at all...
should the game ever demand money from me for content and i don't think it is worth it, i don't spend it. If i find it worth spending my real cash, i'll do it (and i have done it in the past through subscription). Simple as that. It is not a contradiction, it is a choice. Seems to me that your gaming addiction has robbed you guys of that choice.
But i guess for somebody that only thinks in black and white, anything inbetween is a contradiction.
To an extent you are right as there are people out there that do have gambling addictions. Actually, funny you should use the phrase "gambling" instead of gaming. Just shows that you admit there are aspects of this game that are pure unadulterated gambling. Nothing to do with playing an MMO.
Anyway, there is another side to that aspect that you are missing and that is the fact that gaming companies (especially f2p models) are putting in mechanics that aid in getting you addicted. I s**t you not. This is a real thing and something that may have to be regulated in the future.
Here's a funny and informative article that explains some of the mechanics behind the f2p model.
Cracked.com F2P games article
Cheers!
yes, no doubt that this may need regulation and in certain cases it is anyway, but what is it good for when the problem is a phsychological issue. They need a doctor and not a set of rules which they probably ignore or try to evade.
I mean south korea has a strickt ban on gambling, even in games. Diablo 3 release was postponed for that reason in south korea, since the real money auction house was considered online gambling. They did it anyway, just on ebay.
Anyway, the word gambling addiction doesn't automaticly mean that money is involved. It is more about the feeling of gratification and the dependency people develope for it.
It is good in stopping companies from taking advantage of people with addictions or psychological issues. Like it or not, it's the way the world works. People will always try to take advantage of other peoples weaknesses. There are laws a regulations put in place to stop that happening, though sometimes it takes a long time before it happens.
What you are describing there is simple addiction. Doesn't matter whether it is a drink, a needle, a smoke, money or a xindi cruiser. You feel gratification when you take it or get it and develop a dependency on that gratification; then you're addicted.
Cheers!
yes, but the definition of ludomania doesn't mention money...only "negative effects" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_gambling
and the word gambling, may also include gaming: "The word gaming is used more frequently since the rise of computer games to describe activities that do not necessarily involve wagering, especially online gaming, with the new usage still not having displaced the old usage as the primary definition in common dictionaries."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling
i'd rather educate people on the issue than to ban it. A ban only leads to illegality. I mean the failed war on drugs should illustrate that going after the provider isn't a strategy that actually solves the problem when it comes to addictions.
Instead, educating children and supporting addicts has proven to be more effective.
That's inaccurate. The mechanisms simultaneously discourage long (though this is subjective) play sessions while heavily promoting regular (daily) game sessions.
Many MMOs do this via Dailies. GW2, WoW, they all have a variation of it. Your initial efforts every day are rewarded far more heavily than subsequent efforts, until it resets. There's a reason for that too - they don't want the hardcore minority to drive away the more casual majority by pricing things out of their reach.
It's the same reason that guilds (Fleets in STO) are heavily promoted. Studies have shown that players in guilds are more likely to keep playing. Wanting to keep people playing is also why they encourage daily attendance, a psychological trick to build a habit.
This is not unique to STO, it's in every surviving/successful MMO.
I see that people have already mentioned this since I was last on this thread, though.
If PWE is making more money, it means that the majority does, and the game is considered successful.
The fact that there's a grumpy minority complaining about having to spend money does not make the game unsuccessful by the only metric that matters - profitability.
Until they make laws regulating the junk food and fast food industries, they should damn well leave the video game industry alone.
The former feed and encourage food addiction, causing an obesity epidemic and proliferation of self-harm sites like HAES, resulting in rising medical and welfare costs as well as reducing productivity. The latter just causes impotent rants on Internet forums. Unlike "gaming addictions" (that is, gambling) there are no downsides because it literally costs them nothing, since they're vehemently declaring they aren't going to pay for it.
But it is just that, a comment on what is, that when you look at it over don't really say a whole lot, does it?
"They do it for money, their metrics tell them to", talk about nobel prize detective work eh.
Sounds like you live in a sad world too, "nothing I do matters" is like the 3rd step to fatalism before you take a shower with your toaster.
Listen, when developers pull off a nice little scam, such as making you rebuy your old ship and your old gear in expansion 2, the people eating it up raw might seemingly make the developers feel good through worship, but since you can only trick people below your level that doesn't actually count for anything.
1 negative comment from a guy who knows what he is talking about is worth every last single user praising them over dumb stuff.
This guys always types a whole lot without saying anything.
Silly me... I just like to play and shockingly I like to spend money when I'm having fun in a game. I dont need conditioning to compel me to think a certain way based on what some one determines are normative social activities and pattern programming.
Anyway, I get that devs following such idiotic thinking because most people are simpletons statistically but they really should create some mechanism for the other folks..... Just sayin'....
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
As it was said in some other post, This system work because when you have one player who never pay, you have some who pay for him. it's about balance.
Sadly when you have more people who never pay you need to make the one who pay, pay more. Like selling expensive stuff, making more system to pay and create more need to pay ...
Kind of remind me a game.
And nothing you have said here actually contributes a damn of anything useful to this discussion... Someone goes to the effort of forming a logical, reasoned argument, and since you cannot refute their statements, you resort to inference they should commit suicide... You're a sad, sad individual...
And this is little more than blatant narcissism... You are implying that you are not only better than the Devs, but anyone who actually understands, even agrees, with their development decisions...
You are not a special unique snowflake... Fighting the power is not always necessary, and those who support it, are not always dupes or drones...
The real problem is, nothing you have to say about STO is positive... It leaves me bewildered why you even bother sticking around, since you seem to hate everything that Cryptic stand for...
And no, I don't need a narcissistic crusading white-knight-in-shining-pocket-protectors to defend my gaming experience from the evil, megalomaniacal Cryptic...
I am more than capable of making my own assessments, and decisions, on what is good for me and my gaming experiences...