Think of it in terms of gameplay, you click 1 button (or 2 if you want to just throw money down a drain) then log out..
Or
You interact, plan and play when YOU want to.
One is a game, the other is a button you can click to start vacuuming your creditcard.
Why is it again I am blocked from playing a game I bought when I want or can?
Isn't that EXACTLY what you are paying for? Recreational time when you need it night or day 365?
But that wasn't the point I was making.
The point I was making was they copy-pasted blank stats into 3 systems (whose predecessors gave you "dil for time") and added nothing new to game.
Which to top to if off they now want moutains of dil for in what we discussing here seems to be a general direction the game is now heading in you might sum up as "less for more" (hemmingway but here used in the opposite meaning)
No doubt. It used to and that is what I wanted a ST universe to spend free time in at my leisure 24 hours a day if I'm so inclined.
but don't you come to the conclusion that maybe MMOs aren't the thing for you. I can't really think of any MMO (f2p or subscription) that doesn't reward the "daily logg in" more than the weekend hero.
But anyway, you can spend 24hours ingame if you like, but since developers cannot work 24 hours to make content they need to implement some sort of artificial break.
and i'm not sure what you mean by "it used to", since the time when you had your character in top gear before he reached lvl 50 weren't the best of times either...and even then, you could only make x amount of dailys and earn only Y amount of gear tokens. And so it took you a month to buy a new ship with it. So the game didn't change in that regard. Getting new top end stuff was allways time gated or random with a handfull exceptions.
Yet, somehow magically, they manage to not finish it on time and failed to include what in their words is an essential part of any crafting system, being able to break down components.
Maybe I've played the wrong MMOs, but.... what MMOs have had "breaking down gear for components"? Not sure I've ever run into that.... it's all been "farm the hell out of crafting nodes in the world to get components/farm the hell out of dungeons & raids to get the good ones."
/shrug
Well, it's also not "normal" or typical that have to pay for everything you craft in games.
Where are you getting that you "HAVE" to pay? You're right, it's not normal - I personally have no idea why people do that.... are they so impatient & instant-gratification that they have some compulsion which is providing that "HAVE" impulse? Because the game certainly doesn't do anything to force it....
Essentially they are putting in zero work - crafting, doff UI, upgrading and t5u are all copy paste work.
.
.
Yet arrogantly enough they have the audacity to ask for 300,000 dil for some weapon animation that's 4-5 years, they probably didn't even make themselves? What, really?
Someone obviously doesn't understand software development if you think that anything not involving an animation or a graphic is "zero work".
(Also, the amount of dil / time / other "currency" that something costs frequently isn't associated with how much time it took to make, but rather other issues. Like how fast they want the game / players to progress.)
But, hey - I say these things as someone who's never been obsessed with having the latest/greatest. I don't cap out my Dil, I don't have any fleet gear, I haven't built many of the rep sets (I generally turn the Dil I get into zen to buy things in the shop, rather than spending it in-game.) I don't "compete." I've just been puttering along, doing my own thing. So, whatever.
----
And yeah... I think that the people who spend $100+ on f2p games (let alone monthly) - on computer, on tablet, wherever - are insane. There is nothing in these games that needs or justifies that. Or is worth that.
I really hope this is STO's CU. I hope they've finally pushed the game's players so hard something's snapped. Hopefully it will give them a wake-up call at how much faith they've been riding on as the price gouging and double-dipping has become ridiculous.
It's funny we have to contest gravity and split words everytime with you developer apologist.
Try bringing up a point just one time instead of nitpicking the grammar to derail
Al rivera said it, himself, openly.
They wanted to have a typical, classic crafting system where you break items down for components - just like they wanted to have [mods] of your choosing...
Neither of which there was time for.
That aside let's talk common sense here.
Do you want gameplay, features and animations and control over your game or a simple window with 1 button you can press that says "insert coin"
Can we stop contesting the earth is round please, thanks
Can we stop contesting the earth is round please, thanks
oh the irony...since this seems to be exactly the problem...if you look at it from afar, it is round, but if you look cloesly it isn't.
it all becomes clear now, you just ignore the details. I'm sorry but the world is not just round.
and STO developers do not just want to grab all your cash and do nothing all day long.
They just don't share the same philosophy when it comes to game developement and business models as you.
I'm not apologizing for the devs, i'm just pointing out that you might not share their perspective and opinion on how they would like to develope their game.
It had zero new items and zero new animations, it was essentially just copy-paste text into a window with dil sink button.
Yet, somehow magically, they manage to not finish it on time and failed to include what in their words is an essential part of any crafting system, being able to break down components.
Well, it's also not "normal" or typical that have to pay for everything you craft in games.
Typically, the entire idea behind crafting is for those people who like to put in time or work chasing those components can then EARN off of it.
Crafting in sto is a dil vendor lottery and has nothing to do with crafting even remotely.
Now, compare that to the reputation system, which is essentially a direct clone.
You put in your marks from the box and start a timegate as far as "gameplay".
Only reputation had passive stats, active animations and abilities for you FOR FREE - all the while you were earning dil for your time
(the old dil as a time currency)
The slipperly slope can be observed in the comparison right there just as with the LoR vs Dil Rising comparison.
Essentially they are putting in zero work - crafting, doff UI, upgrading and t5u are all copy paste work.
Yet arrogantly enough they have the audacity to ask for 300,000 dil for some weapon animation that's 4-5 years, they probably didn't even make themselves? What, really?
Or in short, it's not less for more, it's recycled content or nothing for more
And that's the slipper slope, we are not talking about one specific window, item, stat or decision.
We are talking about an overall pattern in which cryptic takes the most useless console on your ship, do a 14 second edit in notepad moving some text around, and then asks you for quarter of a million dil for it...
That's going to expand, become worse and spread to potentially ANY or ALL windows, systems and features.
The poster was just trying to paint you a picture by bringing up an example saying the more timegates and the more dil you pay for recycled content, they are only going to step it up until you break your neck.
Thanks for typing all that out. I really didn't have it in me to do so without mashing the keyboard yet one more time due to my extreme frustration with things anymore...
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
but don't you come to the conclusion that maybe MMOs aren't the thing for you. I can't really think of any MMO (f2p or subscription) that doesn't reward the "daily logg in" more than the weekend hero.
But anyway, you can spend 24hours ingame if you like, but since developers cannot work 24 hours to make content they need to implement some sort of artificial break.
and i'm not sure what you mean by "it used to", since the time when you had your character in top gear before he reached lvl 50 weren't the best of times either...and even then, you could only make x amount of dailys and earn only Y amount of gear tokens. And so it took you a month to buy a new ship with it. So the game didn't change in that regard. Getting new top end stuff was allways time gated or random with a handfull exceptions.
Most of my time usually is spent helping people learn STFs or doing runs for other things or organizing private events. I do dailies of course when the mood hits me or others want to learn them for elite and whatnot. In short my time sandbox oriented and yes Age of Conan* and TSW as well as LoTR reward such activity in general and STO used to but I digress....
* Why is "A o C" blocked? Gee Gryptic...
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
I agree that all the added dill cost in this game is getting out of control . Everything is now a other dill drain ive 5 chars n iam lvl 11 in crafting so i will not be lvl 15 to get the maxed reduced cost when DR comes out. I know that craptic needs to make money but i think they are now going about it inthe wrong way. Ill pay for ships with cash but i wont pay to speed up the grind, sto have done well since i started playing feb 2012. But its now starting to feel like a facebook game with massive tine gates i dont/wont play them any more.
I ask the devs do u wont to start losing players because u just coming up with the next money grab that comes to mind. If u do fine its there game and you do what you wont but dont expect me to buy zen or to keep playing.
Timegates are a bane. They're designed to force players to keep playing for longer periods than they otherwise would (ie coming back every day). It's a design mechanic that explicitly conforms to the population 'metrics'.
It serves no benefit to the customer or the gaming experience.
The dili sink is only a compliment to the timesink, because once that dili is gone, you have to continue playing to farm it out again, or buy it, either way the publishers are making money.
Are you going to nitpick to derail or bring up a point, was the question asked
And I believed you answered that so thank you for your time!
/edit
ps you don't have to be a developer apologist to be a nitpicker, however those 2 often go hand in hand when wanting to deny the obvious such as ^
It wasn't about derailing, the irony was that you chose an example that perfectly fitted the analogy of the situation at hand, which is that there are more complex aspects involved to make an absolute statement.
There is a reason for time gating in MMOs, an MMO lives off of it that people logg in regularely to do stuff online...obviously no developer can ever give content to keep people busy for many month until they can deliver new content.
So they slow the progress artificially and people are forced to logg in on a daily bases.
Singleplayer games or PVP games don't need that kind of artificial content break...MMOs do, otherwise they would be deserted after about 1 month.
If people choose to skip that "break" and pay money to have something quicker than anybody else, good for cryptic and good for the peopl that want to do that. What i don't get is, why some of those people come on the forums after spending millions of dilithium on item upgrades on the first day, and complain about it being so expensive and why cryptic went down that path...makes no sense.
it is not apologetic, it is an attempt to explain that things are not allways as they appear to be at the first look, but are far more complex than just "round" if you look closely.
So i hope i explained it better now, why i found your "round earth" example so ironic.
but i understand, if you play more PVP games or singlplayer games, these kind of timegates are frustrating, but there is obviously a reason why each and every MMO has them.
and this is when peopple start questioning what drugs your oon...
I would love to here your reasoning on why I shouldn't be laughing at you openly.
p.s. cryptic I'm telling you crazy homeless guy robes would sell.
You are really not a big picture kind of guy are you? Extremity of statements is nearly universally relative to the time they are viewed in the really real world. Vestereng and the OP summed it up quite well. Greed has a sickening way of escalating just slow enough that only those with the sharpest of perception will notice and no one will believe them until it's too late..
I am quite willing to bet there is no small coincidence that next to 0 was mentioned about all this expensive upgrading nonsense at Las Vegas along with the pretty new ships. I bet that would not exactly have gotten a room full of cheers for their highlight videos..
Never forget, that just because you or someone you have observed may seem paranoid does not mean someone is not out to get you...
And might I add after thinking about it a little more.. when it comes to the frog in the boiling water analogy.. Being a frog who has been gone for two years from that pot of water (the game) and just hopped back in.. All these little bubbles and steam rising from the water around me are a really good sign it's on the way to boiling me...
And yes, I made it green because frog.
There is a reason for time gating in MMOs... obviously no developer can ever..
games don't need
.. good for cryptic and good for the people
why i found your "round earth" example so ironic.
I think you are starting to feel the situation intuitively but it hasn't reached you cognitively yet.
The irony you are feeling is you contradicting yourself on a level of debate that is going over your head.
For example look at the last thing you said. You open up saying "whatever everyone says is wrong becase everything is complex"...
You just said "you can never generalize". Never IS a generalization.
The double paradox of saying that aside, you litterly follow that with an essay on your opinion which are ALL pure "absolutes".
Anyway, back to topic at hand. Mmos don't need timegates - even sto didn't have them before.
Timegates are the lowest form of artificial gameplay that should be spat on REGARDLESSLY if they are, have been or will be mandatory - in this game or in any other, historically, metaphorically, ethically, financially.
What you tried to inject into the convo changes nothing. You said the earth wasn't round I say okay thanks for your contribution.
The point in case is, timegates are terrible gameplay and they make us hate the game.
If the moon is purple, we hate them timegates. If jesus landed in an UFO we hate them, if you have bacon on your pizza tonight or order one tomorrow...
We (us non-apologists or we in our right mind) hate the game for it period.
Then I added to you before, I don't think you are ready to hang in a convo like this, BASED on your best effort being trying to de-rail trolling indifferent nitpicking that has nothing to do with the debate.
And of course, you nitpicked that too so there you go
Time gates are the opposite of player control.
Time gates are the opposite of gameplay.
Time gates are the opposite of recreational time.
Time gates are teh opposite of relaxing.
I could go on all day.
Here is how people see it clean and simple. If your game is fun I will AUTOMATICALLY play it you don't have to whip me left and right.
And when obviously they don't have FAITH in themselves to create a fun game we got PROBLEMS
/edit
ps. the case I am trying to make us no paying gamer should have to cope with a game being TRIBBLE. They bank-rolling the operation so they are the developers where tacofangs etc. are essentially clerks doing 3d studio max or whatever for us.
The gaming industry is the only unregulated industry if you discount opium production in south america and so there is this perception that they should be treated like demi-gods, at least they'd like that, not employees working at starbucks for that cup of coffee you just bought.
It breaks my heart everytime I see some kid call himself a fan or hold them to 3rd reich standards, rationalizing that "well that's what they said so it's true, we have our orders", talking strictly trusting authority blindly here
All that to say, gaming like everything else HAS to evolve and progress and since this industry is UNREGULATED, it's up to YOU and ME to get things done, because if the developers have THEIR way it's going to get dumber and simpler and easier a job for them for MORE of your money
And that sums up the heart of the matter right there. Thumb twiddling is not a good MMO build philosophy.
It's so hard to believe the IP of Star Trek has fallen so far that PWE is the only game company in the world of 6 damned billion people who can apparently stomach the thought of taking on this game.. It makes me damn near want to scream.
And that sums up the heart of the matter right there. Thumb twiddling is not a good MMO build philosophy....
...that's been a core design feature of MMOs since time immemorial. Raid lockouts, daily dungeon lockouts, world boss respawn timers, gear checks combined with limits on how fast you can get the gear, etc. The only new aspect to it is adding in the Facebook/Farmville "pay money to skip the timer" thing (which goes along with the move from subscription games to f2p games).
(Personally, I've never spent dil/astral diamonds/insert-cash-currency-here to skip a timer. Not in MMOs, not in mobile games.... there's nothing so important that it can't wait.)
And yet, everyone does it. Some are just more blatant about it.
Dailies. Raid lockouts. Cooldowns of one hour, 10 hours, 20, 24. And so on.
All to keep you playing longer, whether to draw out your subscription time (back when MMOs still ran on subs, remember those?), encourage you to push the "buy a shortcut" button, or whatever.
Some other company might treat you and/or the IP a little better, but they all want your money.
EDIT: *high-fives kiralyn, who made essentially the same post*
...that's been a core design feature of MMOs since time immemorial. Raid lockouts, daily dungeon lockouts, world boss respawn timers, gear checks combined with limits on how fast you can get the gear, etc. The only new aspect to it is adding in the Facebook/Farmville "pay money to skip the timer" thing (which goes along with the move from subscription games to f2p games).
(Personally, I've never spent dil/astral diamonds/insert-cash-currency-here to skip a timer. Not in MMOs, not in mobile games.... there's nothing so important that it can't wait.)
And yet, everyone does it. Some are just more blatant about it.
Dailies. Raid lockouts. Cooldowns of one hour, 10 hours, 20, 24. And so on.
All to keep you playing longer, whether to draw out your subscription time (back when MMOs still ran on subs, remember those?), encourage you to push the "buy a shortcut" button, or whatever.
Some other company might treat you and/or the IP a little better, but they all want your money.
EDIT: *high-fives kiralyn, who made essentially the same post*
It's all a matter of degrees and knowing when you are going too far. Still.. the episode content is good, the doffing is sufficient, the Battlezones are engaging enough, There are positives to the game of course. I just hope they don't take the time gating to the point they destroy even those positives.
It's so hard to believe the IP of Star Trek has fallen so far that PWE is the only game company in the world of 6 damned billion people who can apparently stomach the thought of taking on this game.. It makes me damn near want to scream.
Go look@other game companies and see how much worse it could be. Do you want another Atari TRIBBLE STO over? EA RL$ Pay Gating F2P ppl? Some of those smaller companies that can't keep a server stable?
It's all a matter of degrees and knowing when you are going too far.
Rule of Acquisition 98: Every man has his price.
Everyone will draw the line somewhere. Perfect World, like other companies, has people who actually get paid to figure out exactly how much most people (weighted toward the "whales") will accept. You can complain about it - that's fine, expected, and entirely irrelevant - as long as you keep paying. That's what matters, that's all that matters. Not whether it's right or fair, or what you feel, or other silly arguments. Only whether you give them your money.
Go look@other game companies and see how much worse it could be. Do you want another Atari TRIBBLE STO over? EA RL$ Pay Gating F2P ppl? Some of those smaller companies that can't keep a server stable?
I guess in the end I just miss the days of the early 90's where the levels of greed in the MMO industry hadn't even started to take off yet.. When playing EQ1 meant playing, and meeting people, and having fun.. Neverwinter Nights on AOL, I miss the simpler days..
I guess in the end I just miss the days of the early 90's where the levels of greed in the MMO industry hadn't even started to take off yet.. When playing EQ1 meant playing, and meeting people, and having fun.. Neverwinter Nights on AOL, I miss the simpler days..
what stops you from doing that in STO? besides yourself?
what stops you from doing that in STO? besides yourself?
What stops me you ask? No one speaks in pve content for one, I do, of course, socialize with my fleet, but the overall attitude of the gaming community in the days since I am speaking of is simply toxic, obviously inflammatory responses like yours are a good sign of this.
Everyone will draw the line somewhere. Perfect World, like other companies, has people who actually get paid to figure out exactly how much most people (weighted toward the "whales") will accept. You can complain about it - that's fine, expected, and entirely irrelevant - as long as you keep paying. That's what matters, that's all that matters. Not whether it's right or fair, or what you feel, or other silly arguments. Only whether you give them your money.
And this doesn't bother you in the slightest? Instead of putting out a product that is better quality to draw the money from a happier player base, they are going to use the lowest common denominator shortcuts to draw money from a playerbase that grows more and more disaffected day by day? I don't understand why the simple point can't be gotten across to people like you that you don't have to put the screws to a playerbase to get money out of them..
I don't understand why the simple point can't be gotten across to people like you that you don't have to put the screws to a playerbase to get money out of them..
Because unfortunately, far too many players feel that Cryptic actually making money off them invalidates their rights as a consumer of a F2P title... They are entitled to everything, while spending nothing, in their minds...
This matter is entirely the result of Cryptic performing the heinous act of actually charging them for services they might find convenient, but by no means mandatory... This then denies them their inalienable right to instant gratification as they have to work for it if they refuse to pay!
Because unfortunately, far too many players feel that Cryptic actually making money off them invalidates their rights as a consumer of a F2P title... They are entitled to everything, while spending nothing, in their minds...
This matter is entirely the result of Cryptic performing the heinous act of actually charging them for services they might find convenient, but by no means mandatory... This then denies them their inalienable right to instant gratification as they have to work for it if they refuse to pay!
Well, In all reality if some people want to/have to put the time in grind everything without dropping a penny, that's their right, That's what the system is there for. I for one don't mind dropping some cash for zen and taking a part of it out for DIL for an emergency or a special item from time to time, And I am Gold, Hell last month I subbed and dropped straight money to get an Avenger the night I came back, and I do grinding for Dil as much as the next person that has spare time relative in quantity to mine
The point is I am trying to make People Will Do Both!! Believe it or not.
Also it was pretty obvious by the fact they had enough petty cash lying around to hire half the cast of Voyager as voice actors before this "upgrade" system was put into place the game was in no danger of going into the red.
Well, In all reality if some people want to/have to put the time in grind everything without dropping a penny, that's their right, That's what the system is there for. I for one don't mind dropping some cash for zen and taking a part of it out for DIL for an emergency or a special item from time to time, And I am subbed, Hell last month I subbed and dropped straight money to get an Avenger, and I do grinding for Dil,.
The point is I am trying to make People Will Do Both!! Believe it or not.
And I, rather facetiously, was agreeing with you... I was merely commenting that some people feel even the merest of monetisation is indeed nothing but a massive cash-grab by Cryptic...
Thing is, it's not necessarily instant gratification.
If I take the time to play each required STF, RNG boxes for each of the materials and days worth of dili necessary, why am I still being forced to wait 12-20 hours before the project even completes?
Why do I have to wait 15 seconds when I turn in 50 rep marks? Or 3 minutes for a piece of rep equipment? It may not seem like much, but that TRIBBLE adds up in the long term.
Just this last CEE event, I had 14400 nukara marks. Converting that to dili takes 72 minutes, of sitting there waiting. It doesn't matter if you do it all at once, or every time you get up to 50 marks.
Meanwhile, they finish quick enough you can't do anything else in the meantime, and take long enough that you realize you're sitting there waiting for them.
Thing is, it's not necessarily instant gratification.
If I take the time to play each required STF, RNG boxes for each of the materials and days worth of dili necessary, why am I still being forced to wait 12-20 hours before the project even completes?
Why do I have to wait 15 seconds when I turn in 50 rep marks? Or 3 minutes for a piece of rep equipment? It may not seem like much, but that TRIBBLE adds up in the long term.
Just this last CEE event, I had 14400 nukara marks. Converting that to dili takes 72 minutes, of sitting there waiting. It doesn't matter if you do it all at once, or every time you get up to 50 marks.
Meanwhile, they finish quick enough you can't do anything else in the meantime, and take long enough that you realize you're sitting there waiting for them.
Timegates are salt in the wound.
Exactly, doesn't it really cease being instant gratification when they take away basic parts of your character and force you to pay to get them back? isn't stripping your ability to even play crossing the line.
And before it is said, Yes I know some will just go play alts, but not everyone has them, some people only like to keep one toon, and taking away their gear is wrong.
Why do I have to wait 15 seconds when I turn in 50 rep marks? Or 3 minutes for a piece of rep equipment? It may not seem like much, but that TRIBBLE adds up in the long term.
Just this last CEE event, I had 14400 nukara marks. Converting that to dili takes 72 minutes, of sitting there waiting. It doesn't matter if you do it all at once, or every time you get up to 50 marks.
Meanwhile, they finish quick enough you can't do anything else in the meantime, and take long enough that you realize you're sitting there waiting for them.
Timegates are salt in the wound.
My guess would be to make obtaining dilithium in-game as painful as possible, to "encourage" players to buy their dilithium with Zen.
Comments
Or
You interact, plan and play when YOU want to.
One is a game, the other is a button you can click to start vacuuming your creditcard.
Why is it again I am blocked from playing a game I bought when I want or can?
Isn't that EXACTLY what you are paying for? Recreational time when you need it night or day 365?
But that wasn't the point I was making.
The point I was making was they copy-pasted blank stats into 3 systems (whose predecessors gave you "dil for time") and added nothing new to game.
Which to top to if off they now want moutains of dil for in what we discussing here seems to be a general direction the game is now heading in you might sum up as "less for more" (hemmingway but here used in the opposite meaning)
/edit
Less is more* of course
but don't you come to the conclusion that maybe MMOs aren't the thing for you. I can't really think of any MMO (f2p or subscription) that doesn't reward the "daily logg in" more than the weekend hero.
But anyway, you can spend 24hours ingame if you like, but since developers cannot work 24 hours to make content they need to implement some sort of artificial break.
and i'm not sure what you mean by "it used to", since the time when you had your character in top gear before he reached lvl 50 weren't the best of times either...and even then, you could only make x amount of dailys and earn only Y amount of gear tokens. And so it took you a month to buy a new ship with it. So the game didn't change in that regard. Getting new top end stuff was allways time gated or random with a handfull exceptions.
Maybe I've played the wrong MMOs, but.... what MMOs have had "breaking down gear for components"? Not sure I've ever run into that.... it's all been "farm the hell out of crafting nodes in the world to get components/farm the hell out of dungeons & raids to get the good ones."
/shrug
Where are you getting that you "HAVE" to pay? You're right, it's not normal - I personally have no idea why people do that.... are they so impatient & instant-gratification that they have some compulsion which is providing that "HAVE" impulse? Because the game certainly doesn't do anything to force it....
Someone obviously doesn't understand software development if you think that anything not involving an animation or a graphic is "zero work".
(Also, the amount of dil / time / other "currency" that something costs frequently isn't associated with how much time it took to make, but rather other issues. Like how fast they want the game / players to progress.)
But, hey - I say these things as someone who's never been obsessed with having the latest/greatest. I don't cap out my Dil, I don't have any fleet gear, I haven't built many of the rep sets (I generally turn the Dil I get into zen to buy things in the shop, rather than spending it in-game.) I don't "compete." I've just been puttering along, doing my own thing. So, whatever.
----
And yeah... I think that the people who spend $100+ on f2p games (let alone monthly) - on computer, on tablet, wherever - are insane. There is nothing in these games that needs or justifies that. Or is worth that.
Try bringing up a point just one time instead of nitpicking the grammar to derail
Al rivera said it, himself, openly.
They wanted to have a typical, classic crafting system where you break items down for components - just like they wanted to have [mods] of your choosing...
Neither of which there was time for.
That aside let's talk common sense here.
Do you want gameplay, features and animations and control over your game or a simple window with 1 button you can press that says "insert coin"
Can we stop contesting the earth is round please, thanks
oh the irony...since this seems to be exactly the problem...if you look at it from afar, it is round, but if you look cloesly it isn't.
it all becomes clear now, you just ignore the details. I'm sorry but the world is not just round.
and STO developers do not just want to grab all your cash and do nothing all day long.
They just don't share the same philosophy when it comes to game developement and business models as you.
I'm not apologizing for the devs, i'm just pointing out that you might not share their perspective and opinion on how they would like to develope their game.
Are you going to nitpick to derail or bring up a point, was the question asked
And I believed you answered that so thank you for your time!
/edit
ps you don't have to be a developer apologist to be a nitpicker, however those 2 often go hand in hand when wanting to deny the obvious such as ^
Thanks for typing all that out. I really didn't have it in me to do so without mashing the keyboard yet one more time due to my extreme frustration with things anymore...
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Most of my time usually is spent helping people learn STFs or doing runs for other things or organizing private events. I do dailies of course when the mood hits me or others want to learn them for elite and whatnot. In short my time sandbox oriented and yes Age of Conan* and TSW as well as LoTR reward such activity in general and STO used to but I digress....
* Why is "A o C" blocked? Gee Gryptic...
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
I ask the devs do u wont to start losing players because u just coming up with the next money grab that comes to mind. If u do fine its there game and you do what you wont but dont expect me to buy zen or to keep playing.
It serves no benefit to the customer or the gaming experience.
The dili sink is only a compliment to the timesink, because once that dili is gone, you have to continue playing to farm it out again, or buy it, either way the publishers are making money.
It wasn't about derailing, the irony was that you chose an example that perfectly fitted the analogy of the situation at hand, which is that there are more complex aspects involved to make an absolute statement.
There is a reason for time gating in MMOs, an MMO lives off of it that people logg in regularely to do stuff online...obviously no developer can ever give content to keep people busy for many month until they can deliver new content.
So they slow the progress artificially and people are forced to logg in on a daily bases.
Singleplayer games or PVP games don't need that kind of artificial content break...MMOs do, otherwise they would be deserted after about 1 month.
If people choose to skip that "break" and pay money to have something quicker than anybody else, good for cryptic and good for the peopl that want to do that. What i don't get is, why some of those people come on the forums after spending millions of dilithium on item upgrades on the first day, and complain about it being so expensive and why cryptic went down that path...makes no sense.
it is not apologetic, it is an attempt to explain that things are not allways as they appear to be at the first look, but are far more complex than just "round" if you look closely.
So i hope i explained it better now, why i found your "round earth" example so ironic.
but i understand, if you play more PVP games or singlplayer games, these kind of timegates are frustrating, but there is obviously a reason why each and every MMO has them.
You are really not a big picture kind of guy are you? Extremity of statements is nearly universally relative to the time they are viewed in the really real world. Vestereng and the OP summed it up quite well. Greed has a sickening way of escalating just slow enough that only those with the sharpest of perception will notice and no one will believe them until it's too late..
I am quite willing to bet there is no small coincidence that next to 0 was mentioned about all this expensive upgrading nonsense at Las Vegas along with the pretty new ships. I bet that would not exactly have gotten a room full of cheers for their highlight videos..
Never forget, that just because you or someone you have observed may seem paranoid does not mean someone is not out to get you...
And might I add after thinking about it a little more.. when it comes to the frog in the boiling water analogy.. Being a frog who has been gone for two years from that pot of water (the game) and just hopped back in.. All these little bubbles and steam rising from the water around me are a really good sign it's on the way to boiling me...
And yes, I made it green because frog.
I think you are starting to feel the situation intuitively but it hasn't reached you cognitively yet.
The irony you are feeling is you contradicting yourself on a level of debate that is going over your head.
For example look at the last thing you said. You open up saying "whatever everyone says is wrong becase everything is complex"...
You just said "you can never generalize". Never IS a generalization.
The double paradox of saying that aside, you litterly follow that with an essay on your opinion which are ALL pure "absolutes".
Anyway, back to topic at hand. Mmos don't need timegates - even sto didn't have them before.
Timegates are the lowest form of artificial gameplay that should be spat on REGARDLESSLY if they are, have been or will be mandatory - in this game or in any other, historically, metaphorically, ethically, financially.
What you tried to inject into the convo changes nothing. You said the earth wasn't round I say okay thanks for your contribution.
The point in case is, timegates are terrible gameplay and they make us hate the game.
If the moon is purple, we hate them timegates. If jesus landed in an UFO we hate them, if you have bacon on your pizza tonight or order one tomorrow...
We (us non-apologists or we in our right mind) hate the game for it period.
Then I added to you before, I don't think you are ready to hang in a convo like this, BASED on your best effort being trying to de-rail trolling indifferent nitpicking that has nothing to do with the debate.
And of course, you nitpicked that too so there you go
Time gates are the opposite of player control.
Time gates are the opposite of gameplay.
Time gates are the opposite of recreational time.
Time gates are teh opposite of relaxing.
I could go on all day.
Here is how people see it clean and simple. If your game is fun I will AUTOMATICALLY play it you don't have to whip me left and right.
And when obviously they don't have FAITH in themselves to create a fun game we got PROBLEMS
/edit
ps. the case I am trying to make us no paying gamer should have to cope with a game being TRIBBLE. They bank-rolling the operation so they are the developers where tacofangs etc. are essentially clerks doing 3d studio max or whatever for us.
The gaming industry is the only unregulated industry if you discount opium production in south america and so there is this perception that they should be treated like demi-gods, at least they'd like that, not employees working at starbucks for that cup of coffee you just bought.
It breaks my heart everytime I see some kid call himself a fan or hold them to 3rd reich standards, rationalizing that "well that's what they said so it's true, we have our orders", talking strictly trusting authority blindly here
All that to say, gaming like everything else HAS to evolve and progress and since this industry is UNREGULATED, it's up to YOU and ME to get things done, because if the developers have THEIR way it's going to get dumber and simpler and easier a job for them for MORE of your money
Find your own way of dealing with it, or leave.
I'm not an apologist, I'm a realist.
And that sums up the heart of the matter right there. Thumb twiddling is not a good MMO build philosophy.
It's so hard to believe the IP of Star Trek has fallen so far that PWE is the only game company in the world of 6 damned billion people who can apparently stomach the thought of taking on this game.. It makes me damn near want to scream.
...that's been a core design feature of MMOs since time immemorial. Raid lockouts, daily dungeon lockouts, world boss respawn timers, gear checks combined with limits on how fast you can get the gear, etc. The only new aspect to it is adding in the Facebook/Farmville "pay money to skip the timer" thing (which goes along with the move from subscription games to f2p games).
(Personally, I've never spent dil/astral diamonds/insert-cash-currency-here to skip a timer. Not in MMOs, not in mobile games.... there's nothing so important that it can't wait.)
Dailies. Raid lockouts. Cooldowns of one hour, 10 hours, 20, 24. And so on.
All to keep you playing longer, whether to draw out your subscription time (back when MMOs still ran on subs, remember those?), encourage you to push the "buy a shortcut" button, or whatever.
Some other company might treat you and/or the IP a little better, but they all want your money.
EDIT: *high-fives kiralyn, who made essentially the same post*
It's all a matter of degrees and knowing when you are going too far. Still.. the episode content is good, the doffing is sufficient, the Battlezones are engaging enough, There are positives to the game of course. I just hope they don't take the time gating to the point they destroy even those positives.
Go look@other game companies and see how much worse it could be. Do you want another Atari TRIBBLE STO over? EA RL$ Pay Gating F2P ppl? Some of those smaller companies that can't keep a server stable?
Rule of Acquisition 98: Every man has his price.
Everyone will draw the line somewhere. Perfect World, like other companies, has people who actually get paid to figure out exactly how much most people (weighted toward the "whales") will accept. You can complain about it - that's fine, expected, and entirely irrelevant - as long as you keep paying. That's what matters, that's all that matters. Not whether it's right or fair, or what you feel, or other silly arguments. Only whether you give them your money.
I guess in the end I just miss the days of the early 90's where the levels of greed in the MMO industry hadn't even started to take off yet.. When playing EQ1 meant playing, and meeting people, and having fun.. Neverwinter Nights on AOL, I miss the simpler days..
what stops you from doing that in STO? besides yourself?
What stops me you ask? No one speaks in pve content for one, I do, of course, socialize with my fleet, but the overall attitude of the gaming community in the days since I am speaking of is simply toxic, obviously inflammatory responses like yours are a good sign of this.
And this doesn't bother you in the slightest? Instead of putting out a product that is better quality to draw the money from a happier player base, they are going to use the lowest common denominator shortcuts to draw money from a playerbase that grows more and more disaffected day by day? I don't understand why the simple point can't be gotten across to people like you that you don't have to put the screws to a playerbase to get money out of them..
Because unfortunately, far too many players feel that Cryptic actually making money off them invalidates their rights as a consumer of a F2P title... They are entitled to everything, while spending nothing, in their minds...
This matter is entirely the result of Cryptic performing the heinous act of actually charging them for services they might find convenient, but by no means mandatory... This then denies them their inalienable right to instant gratification as they have to work for it if they refuse to pay!
Well, In all reality if some people want to/have to put the time in grind everything without dropping a penny, that's their right, That's what the system is there for. I for one don't mind dropping some cash for zen and taking a part of it out for DIL for an emergency or a special item from time to time, And I am Gold, Hell last month I subbed and dropped straight money to get an Avenger the night I came back, and I do grinding for Dil as much as the next person that has spare time relative in quantity to mine
The point is I am trying to make People Will Do Both!! Believe it or not.
Also it was pretty obvious by the fact they had enough petty cash lying around to hire half the cast of Voyager as voice actors before this "upgrade" system was put into place the game was in no danger of going into the red.
And I, rather facetiously, was agreeing with you... I was merely commenting that some people feel even the merest of monetisation is indeed nothing but a massive cash-grab by Cryptic...
If I take the time to play each required STF, RNG boxes for each of the materials and days worth of dili necessary, why am I still being forced to wait 12-20 hours before the project even completes?
Why do I have to wait 15 seconds when I turn in 50 rep marks? Or 3 minutes for a piece of rep equipment? It may not seem like much, but that TRIBBLE adds up in the long term.
Just this last CEE event, I had 14400 nukara marks. Converting that to dili takes 72 minutes, of sitting there waiting. It doesn't matter if you do it all at once, or every time you get up to 50 marks.
Meanwhile, they finish quick enough you can't do anything else in the meantime, and take long enough that you realize you're sitting there waiting for them.
Timegates are salt in the wound.
Exactly, doesn't it really cease being instant gratification when they take away basic parts of your character and force you to pay to get them back? isn't stripping your ability to even play crossing the line.
And before it is said, Yes I know some will just go play alts, but not everyone has them, some people only like to keep one toon, and taking away their gear is wrong.
My guess would be to make obtaining dilithium in-game as painful as possible, to "encourage" players to buy their dilithium with Zen.