Bug is better then 7/10, I haven't run into any new t6 escorts that can beat mine in dogfights, it would probably do better then the Xindi against new escorts. Also you leave out the t5-u b'rel, Mini is slaughtering everything in it still, he hasn't saw a reason to use his Rom or t6 ships. Its also great as a cloaked sci ship which is what I have been using it for.
I haven't dogfighted (dogfought?) a T6 escort with my JHAS yet, but I did do a 1v1 with a friend who had a T6 cruiser and the Phantom's trait. Needless to say, I wasn't really making any progress on his hull.
Hm... I really have a lot of reserves in stating that a Recluse or a Science Odyssey are outclassed in their main role aka healing. Out of all those tier 6 ships, I don't think there's one that can pull out more than 260 Shield Emitters skill.
I agree on the Faeht however. Hands down best vaper period. I can pull off easily 150k raw crits with the Lance; with GDF, possibly beyond the 200k mark.
Bug is better then 7/10, I haven't run into any new t6 escorts that can beat mine in dogfights, it would probably do better then the Xindi against new escorts. Also you leave out the t5-u b'rel, Mini is slaughtering everything in it still, he hasn't saw a reason to use his Rom or t6 ships. Its also great as a cloaked sci ship which is what I have been using it for.
the goal posts have been moved. if you deal weapons damage and you cant slot OSS or SS, your a relic. OSS pretty much averages out to another copy of APA, active for 20 seconds with a 30 second cool down. OSS2, the best you can get unless you have 22 specialization intel points, peeks at an 80% energy weapon damage buff for the first second.
SS is brutally effective especially in PVP, it takes the reason why DHCs are great, and doubles down, not to mention cant miss and cant not crit. ionic, in addition to the turning off of boff skills, is also a big hull debuff, another one to stack to make someone pop like an egg. nothing tier 5U can do any of this, these things that can nearly double effectiveness when used right
bops are hard to rate, mini and others get kills in them in spite of them sucking. they can fit whats needed to vap best, so they can do that well. very well.
Hm... I really have a lot of reserves in stating that a Recluse or a Science Odyssey are outclassed in their main role aka healing. Out of all those tier 6 ships, I don't think there's one that can pull out more than 260 Shield Emitters skill.
I agree on the Faeht however. Hands down best vaper period. I can pull off easily 150k raw crits with the Lance; with GDF, possibly beyond the 200k mark.
tanking really isn't a thing anymore. you can be 1 shot 3 times over then you could pre DR. ionic, EMP, and viral torp all strait up turn off your ability to respond, if you cant activate buffs and counters there is no tanking. so what good are the best healers and tanks in this meta
uber lance, auto expose of the active sensors thing turning off all eng skills and most of your hull res if they even survive the lance, 5 tac consoles, EBC, sci LTC, COM intel and LTC tac, its ideal for an in and out 1 shot
Bug is better then 7/10, I haven't run into any new t6 escorts that can beat mine in dogfights, it would probably do better then the Xindi against new escorts. Also you leave out the t5-u b'rel, Mini is slaughtering everything in it still, he hasn't saw a reason to use his Rom or t6 ships. Its also great as a cloaked sci ship which is what I have been using it for.
It has already been proven that a bugship generally is inferior to any decent tac pilot in a xindi escort. From my own pre-DR duels I have never suffered a defeat against any bugship, not even close. The 5 fore weapon slots and the boff layout make the difference. On the one hand, the bugship has a very tac-heavy boff layout while its main strength was based on a high base turn rate and hullpower in the past that has made it to the pinnacle of escorts dominating the pvp-scene for a long time. But on the other hand it has been dethroned by some other escorts meanwhile, among them the xindi one that can convince with an outrageous firepower and an eng-heavy boff seating in which skills like aux2damp can be utilized, in order to match the weaker turn rate easily and to have more hull resistances than a JHAS, without sacrificing RSP.
As a matter of fact the xindi escort should be more than capable of handling t6 escorts if a bugship can do so.
I haven't dogfighted (dogfought?) a T6 escort with my JHAS yet, but I did do a 1v1 with a friend who had a T6 cruiser and the Phantom's trait. Needless to say, I wasn't really making any progress on his hull.
Phatoms turn is really bad, its easy to outmaneuver with a bug and kill while he can't shoot back with DHC.
It has already been proven that a bugship generally is inferior to any decent tac pilot in a xindi escort. From my own pre-DR duels I have never suffered a defeat against any bugship, not even close. The 5 fore weapon slots and the boff layout make the difference. On the one hand, the bugship has a very tac-heavy boff layout while its main strength was based on a high base turn rate and hullpower in the past that has made it to the pinnacle of escorts dominating the pvp-scene for a long time. But on the other hand it has been dethroned by some other escorts meanwhile, among them the xindi one that can convince with an outrageous firepower and an eng-heavy boff seating in which skills like aux2damp can be utilized, in order to match the weaker turn rate easily and to have more hull resistances than a JHAS, without sacrificing RSP.
As a matter of fact the xindi escort should be more than capable of handling t6 escorts if a bugship can do so.
Cheers.
Yes most premades use xindi over the bug because 5 DHC is better then more turn and speed, bug is still better in kerrat and cap and hold and pugging I think. It can out run or outmanuver anyone it can't outfight, there is no need to stay in range of xindi 1v1 until its weak
note that i'd rate the best tier 5U ships at no more then 6 or 7 at the very most.
Dammit. I bought the Guardian based off of what you suggested originally.
At least it'll make a decent healer.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
note that i'd rate the best tier 5U ships at no more then 6 or 7 at the very most.
Agreed, most are certainly obsolete when compared to T6 ships.
The only one I've seen to have any real success is the Recluse (healer/tank wise anyway), but that might change when it's having to deal with teams made up of 3+ T6 ships.
Agreed, most are certainly obsolete when compared to T6 ships.
The only one I've seen to have any real success is the Recluse (healer/tank wise anyway), but that might change when it's having to deal with teams made up of 3+ T6 ships.
Dammit. I bought the Guardian based off of what you suggested originally.
At least it'll make a decent healer.
eh sorry? at least its trait gives you a 25k hull heal and shield regen at random. and since it can slot OSS2, even ranked at 7 its should still be FAW scimitar tier. its still the best traditional beam boat cruiser, and it looks pretty nice too. its also just about ody tier if you want to make a healer out of it.
eh sorry? at least its trait gives you a 25k hull heal and shield regen at random. and since it can slot OSS2, even ranked at 7 its should still be FAW scimitar tier. its still the best traditional beam boat cruiser, and it looks pretty nice too. its also just about ody tier if you want to make a healer out of it.
I am starting to get the hang of this ship. It's actually pretty nice.
Thanks for making this thread Drunk, a lot of people (now including me) can find it useful for buying the right ship.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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eh sorry? at least its trait gives you a 25k hull heal and shield regen at random. and since it can slot OSS2, even ranked at 7 its should still be FAW scimitar tier. its still the best traditional beam boat cruiser, and it looks pretty nice too. its also just about ody tier if you want to make a healer out of it.
yep no prob. just to complete the thought i was thinking about doing it anyway.
I'd like to know what makes you think it's on Odyssey's level of healing. The trait isn't an exclusive of the Guardian, and falls back in terms of survivability IMO.
it was healing like a tier 3 ship up to the last patch, so i bet it feels much more sturdy at least recently!
Indeed it does. In fact I'm pretty happy I got the Guardian now, after all the "Eclipse is squishy" comments that are flying around my fleet/friends. If only loadouts were fixed...
I'd like to know what makes you think it's on Odyssey's level of healing. The trait isn't an exclusive of the Guardian, and falls back in terms of survivability IMO.
Odyssey XX XXXX
X XX
TRIBBLE
Consoles (T5U): 5/4/2
Guardian TRIBBLE XXXX XX* TRIBBLE
X
Consoles: 4/3/3
*Note that the Guardian can run Intel abilities with its Lt Eng seat.
Currently AFAIK, most of the new Intel abilities cannot be countered fully with the existing tac/sci/eng Teams. Only Intel team clears Expose Vulnerabilities and possibly other effects that depend on a target lock (as IT temporarily "cloaks" your ship).
** edit: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Basically, the major differences between the Guardian and the Sci Oddy are:
- Oddy has a Lt Sci seat, where Guardian has potentially an Ens Sci. So basically the Oddy can slot a HE2 or TSS2 where the Guardian cannot.
- Oddy has 1 more eng and 1 more sci consoles than the Guardian. 5 eng is redundant, having an extra sci console may be useful for Emitter Array or field gen consoles. Not a huge game changer.
- Guardian has a LtCmdr Tac seat. This is pretty important, the Guardian can run TT1 and TT2 and have APO1 or APD2 available. APD2 because it's castable on teammates, or APO1 for turning quickly to aid teammates who fly out of heal range. (Why two copies of TT? So they're up as often as possible, either on you or a teammate to save their lives.) Also, APO gives you immunity to hold effects like tractors and TBR, which is also useful.
- Guardian also has a Lt Eng/Intel as opposed to the Oddy's potential Ens Eng. This is super important. Not only does this let the Guardian slot an extra Lt Eng ability, it's also an Intel seat - which in DR, is critical for survival. If your team is facing a squad of T6 ships, and you don't have intel team to counter it, you and your team are vulnerable with no means of countering the new intel powers. (Good luck doing anything while EM Probe is disabling you.) So while the Oddy may squeeze out greater heal numbers, it now has to do that same job before it gets slaughtered. And if you, the teamhealer, are dead, you've failed your purpose in supporting your team.
- Guardian has the T5 Mastery trait. I could say the Oddy and any other ship on the same character could get that trait too, but if you have the Guardian already, why switch back?
- also, Guardian has its own special console which, IMO, is more useful than the Work Bee, saucer sep, or Aquarius.
TL;DR:
Guardian is superior because it can do almost the same job as an Oddy, but last longer due to Intel Team.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Indeed it does. In fact I'm pretty happy I got the Guardian now, after all the "Eclipse is squishy" comments that are flying around my fleet/friends. If only loadouts were fixed...
Odyssey XX XXXX
X XX
TRIBBLE
Consoles (T5U): 5/4/2
Guardian TRIBBLE XXXX XX* TRIBBLE
X
Consoles: 4/3/3
*Note that the Guardian can run Intel abilities with its Lt Eng seat.
Currently AFAIK, most of the new Intel abilities cannot be countered fully with the existing tac/sci/eng Teams. Only Intel team clears Expose Vulnerabilities and possibly other effects that depend on a target lock (as IT temporarily "cloaks" your ship).
Basically, the major differences between the Guardian and the Sci Oddy are:
- Oddy has a Lt Sci seat, where Guardian has potentially an Ens Sci. So basically the Oddy can slot a HE2 or TSS2 where the Guardian cannot.
- Oddy has 1 more eng and 1 more sci consoles than the Guardian. 5 eng is redundant, having an extra sci console may be useful for Emitter Array or field gen consoles. Not a huge game changer.
- Guardian has a LtCmdr Tac seat. This is pretty important, the Guardian can run TT1 and TT2 and have APO1 or APD2 available. APD2 because it's castable on teammates, or APO1 for turning quickly to aid teammates who fly out of heal range. (Why two copies of TT? So they're up as often as possible, either on you or a teammate to save their lives.) Also, APO gives you immunity to hold effects like tractors and TBR, which is also useful.
- Guardian also has a Lt Eng/Intel as opposed to the Oddy's potential Ens Eng. This is super important. Not only does this let the Guardian slot an extra Lt Eng ability, it's also an Intel seat - which in DR, is critical for survival. If your team is facing a squad of T6 ships, and you don't have intel team to counter it, you and your team are vulnerable with no means of countering the new intel powers. (Good luck doing anything while EM Probe is disabling you.) So while the Oddy may squeeze out greater heal numbers, it now has to do that same job before it gets slaughtered. And if you, the teamhealer, are dead, you've failed your purpose in supporting your team.
- Guardian has the T5 Mastery trait. I could say the Oddy and any other ship on the same character could get that trait too, but if you have the Guardian already, why switch back?
- also, Guardian has its own special console which, IMO, is more useful than the Work Bee, saucer sep, or Aquarius.
TL;DR:
Guardian is superior because it can do almost the same job as an Oddy, but last longer due to Intel Team.
sorry but your argument is totally invalid. Intelligence abilities do not provide heals for your team. Without AtB they can't even go down in CDs. LtCmdr tac seat is good for nothing, have APO with a 60 seconds Cd doing nothing? Wut?
Odyssey's absolute zero tactical focus makes it resilient. 5 Engineering consoles and 4 science to fill with fleet emitter arrays. 5 Engi are NOT redundant on a healer, they are on the Avenger.
Guardian trait isn't an exclusive of the ship, another invalid argument.
Try doing this on the Guardian:
3 Enhanced Neutronium Alloys, 1 SIF Generator, 1 Conductive RCS Accelerator +Emitter, 4 Fleet Emitter arrays, Enhanced Plasma Manifold, subspace jumper. I have 190 hull repair, more than 260 Shield Emitters skills, 50% base resists to everything without buffs.
You're doing nothing with an added ensign power. Everything you need is double EPTX, Extend, ET, ATSIF. Maybe a RSP, but I never felt the need of it if you're tank enough.
Remember that a healer needs only to self sustain and support the team. Damage dealing is for others. Every tick of the build that's not for healing purposes drives you away from what you're supposed to do.
Guardian can make a fine healer, but not on par with the Odyssey.
Ah, did I say you don't have Sensor Analysis and thus unable to severely increase the healing on an ally, or make an enemy squisher to kill for your team?
Sorry but you just seem to struggle finding perks where there aren't. The [T6] sign doesn't mean it's superior. Let's be honest, is too tactical based to compete.
sorry but your argument is totally invalid. Intelligence abilities do not provide heals for your team. Without AtB they can't even go down in CDs. LtCmdr tac seat is good for nothing, have APO with a 60 seconds Cd doing nothing? Wut?
Odyssey's absolute zero tactical focus makes it resilient. 5 Engineering consoles and 4 science to fill with fleet emitter arrays. 5 Engi are NOT redundant on a healer, they are on the Avenger.
Guardian trait isn't an exclusive of the ship, another invalid argument.
Try doing this on the Guardian:
3 Enhanced Neutronium Alloys, 1 SIF Generator, 1 Conductive RCS Accelerator +Emitter, 4 Fleet Emitter arrays, Enhanced Plasma Manifold, subspace jumper. I have 190 hull repair, more than 260 Shield Emitters skills, 50% base resists to everything without buffs.
You're doing nothing with an added ensign power. Everything you need is double EPTX, Extend, ET, ATSIF. Maybe a RSP, but I never felt the need of it if you're tank enough.
Remember that a healer needs only to self sustain and support the team. Damage dealing is for others. Every tick of the build that's not for healing purposes drives you away from what you're supposed to do.
Guardian can make a fine healer, but not on par with the Odyssey.
Ah, did I say you don't have Sensor Analysis and thus unable to severely increase the healing on an ally, or make an enemy squisher to kill for your team?
Sorry but you just seem to struggle finding perks where there aren't. The [T6] sign doesn't mean it's superior. Let's be honest, is too tactical based to compete.
I respectfully disagree. (That is, I disagree if the theory holds that Ionic Turbulence, EMP Probe, and other Intel abilities cannot be countered with regular Tac/Sci/Eng abilities. If they can, I retract the following.)
** EDIT: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Prior to Delta Rising and the release of Intel abilities, I would 110% agree with you. Sci Oddy and other ships with heavy sci and eng seats and consoles would be dominant healers. And I agree that if your Sci Oddy is facing opponents who don't use Intel abilities, your Oddy is still the dominant healer - both in healing numbers and general effectiveness in keeping team members alive.
But with the crazy new Intel abilities like the disabler EMP probe and Ionic Turbulence, what tac/sci captain wouldn't get a T6 ship to use these powers against healers?
The Sci Oddy, and every other non-T6 ship, cannot mount a defense against the new Intel abilities. Consider a 5 man team spamming ionic turbulence. Your Oddy will be disabled, and there isn't a thing you can do to counter it.
The question becomes this: Can an Oddy or other T5/T5U healer ship still be effective teamhealers, if they are easily disabled and cannot remove the disable? My answer is no.
However, Guardian Cruisers can mount Intel abilities, such as Intel Team. Intel Team offers an increase in Stealth, threat reduction, and cleanses Intel effects like Expose Vulnerabilities (I'm probably forgetting other effects Intel team also has). So unless I'm mistaken, it is the only effective power to cleanse Intel abilities that would disable your ship.
Therefore, the Guardian is the superior healer simply because it can remove Intel disables, which means it can continue a) defending itself if it's under attack, and b) healing teammates.
People often forget that a theoretical build doesn't always work out in the practical environment (I sometimes do the same). It's important to realize what kinds of enemies, and their types of attacks, your ship will be facing in PvP. It's important to realize that any build has faults; to recognize those faults and assess whether it's practical to continue with the ship and build you have, or if it's time to move on to something that will work in the practical world.
As for gear:
APO gives you immunity to tractors and a turn boost. For slow turning ships like the Guardian, these two benefits allow you to follow the rest of your team more effectively. It also saves you from having to run with Polarize Hull to counter tractors, if you are short on sci seating.
3 Enhanced Neutronium grants you a huge amount of damage resistance, but it does little towards HRR (Hull Repair). I would recommend 2x Neut and 2x SIF, just to get that HRR rating up. (Running two Mk XI Purples gets me above 200% HRR. Biotech patch also helps as well.)
RCS consoles aren't needed when you have Evasive and APO on hand. This helps you invest more console space in Neuts, SIFs, or universal consoles such as Borg Module (Borg Module + KCB + Omega gives you the 3pc ability which grants you immunity to damage, or something similar. Again, something that keeps you alive longer.), Fluidic Space Decoupler (turn boost and immunity to targeting and damage), subspace jumper, etc. If you're running a Romulan healer, Molecular Phase Inversion Field is another option which grants you +100000% defense, immunity to kinetic damage, increased flight speed and turn rate, and still allows you to heal yourself or teammates while it runs for 15 seconds. (Note: STOWiki is wrong about the defense rating. In-game, the MPIF has 100k% defense. I have the console.)
And 5 eng consoles IS redundant. 4 is sufficient to run 2x neut and 2x SIF. I'd rather have 4/4/2 or 4/4/3. I do retract my statement of the Oddy's 5 eng consoles being redundant, as the Oddy has 4 sci consoles and thus isn't lacking. The Guardian only has 5/3/3 and that lack of a 4th sci console hurts its sci related skills like shield emitters and shield repair skills. So true, the Oddy does have that advantage.
TL;DR:
Intel disables (EMP probe, Ionic Turbulence) are dangerous and need a counter.
T5/T5U ships cannot counter Intel abilities, but Guardian can.
Therefore, Guardian > T5/T5U healers, simply because it counters Intel disables. Guardian therefore survives longer, which is enough to keep healing teammates.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
ionic and EMP have no counter. if your in range of their effect, your gonna lose the ability to use station powers. their counter is to fly out of them or destroy the probe befor it goes off
ionic and EMP have no counter. if your in range of their effect, your gonna lose the ability to use station powers. their counter is to fly out of them or destroy the probe befor it goes off
I admit there is a chance Salieri may be mistaken. I'll try to verify this myself the next time I log on.
** EDIT: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
how do you use a station power to clear something when you cant use any station powers
I'd imagine it would be similar to the baseball. With the baseball, every station power is blacked out except EngTeam. With the traditional eng/sci/tac abilities, there is at least one ability that counters it or at least can be activated.
Cryptic wouldn't be so stupid as to create boff abilities which have no counter... wait never mind, anything's possible with Cryptic.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Just a couple quick bits that may help you edit your post.
Gather Intel has no disable effects. There's one very short hold. Like two seconds. You aren't clearing that anyway. Not practical.
Every other intel ability has a counter, even if that counter is called 'not sitting still'. Except for I think one. Viral Burst does its damage so quickly it may not be worth clearing. But otherwise.....
I respectfully disagree. (That is, I disagree if the theory holds that Ionic Turbulence, EMP Probe, and other Intel abilities cannot be countered with regular Tac/Sci/Eng abilities. If they can, I retract the following.)
Ship Mastery. Now there is something different. Take a look at those.
And...furthermore...you're right about even the two Intel slots available for the Guardian being potentially game changing for that ship. Especially, and of course, when combined with completed Ship Mastery from the other T6 ships.
Just you're right but your arguments are flawed, so NO SOUP FOR YOU ONE YEAR!!
thats not true. Tactical Team/Eng Team/Sci Team/Hazzards clean the debuffs from the inteligence bridge officer abilities, the only ones that are only clean by intel team are those from the gather inteligence of the intel ships.
Just a couple quick bits that may help you edit your post.
Gather Intel has no disable effects. There's one very short hold. Like two seconds. You aren't clearing that anyway. Not practical.
Every other intel ability has a counter, even if that counter is called 'not sitting still'. Except for I think one. Viral Burst does its damage so quickly it may not be worth clearing. But otherwise.....
I respectfully disagree. (That is, I disagree if the theory holds that Ionic Turbulence, EMP Probe, and other Intel abilities cannot be countered with regular Tac/Sci/Eng abilities. If they can, I retract the following.)
Ship Mastery. Now there is something different. Take a look at those.
And...furthermore...you're right about even the two Intel slots available for the Guardian being potentially game changing for that ship. Especially, and of course, when combined with completed Ship Mastery from the other T6 ships.
Just you're right but your arguments are flawed, so NO SOUP FOR YOU ONE YEAR!!
I didn't want to touch Starship Mastery. Opening too many doors at once. I agree though, that's another issue which places the Guardian above other ships.
thats not true. Tactical Team/Eng Team/Sci Team/Hazzards clean the debuffs from the inteligence bridge officer abilities, the only ones that are only clean by intel team are those from the gather inteligence of the intel ships.
Awesome, thanks Thissler for clarifying. I'll go back and place warnings on all of the posts I wrote earlier.
(This is why I should watch your videos more often, in the interim when I don't have access to the game)
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I didn't want to touch Starship Mastery. Opening too many doors at once. I agree though, that's another issue which places the Guardian above other ships.
Awesome, thanks for clarifying. I'll go back and place warnings on all of the posts I wrote earlier.
I should prolly go back and put warnings on most of mine as well.:)
The Qib is 9.5 now ?
How can it possibly be that high when it has a lowly Lt. SCI boff and 2 SCI consoles ? I was gonna take another look at it but it's just as useless as I remember. 5 ENG consoles - wtf.
I admit there is a chance Salieri may be mistaken. I'll try to verify this myself the next time I log on.
** EDIT: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Yes it was a poorly crafted joke. Sorry about that one.
The intel disables are a pain to cleans. (Not joking) I do believe Engi team still clears the disables... assuming your carrying one and its not on cool down. The Intel disables are extremely spammy is the main issue I think. Its very easy to fly a ship with VM torp 5s disables every 20s... AMP disables of 8-12s every 30s... chain that stuff with things like ionic and even Viral burst. It does lead to a crazy amount of annoying disables.
Cryptic forgot MMO PvP rule number 1... players hate being disabled.
The very first version of VM at launch almost killed this games pvp before it even started.
Honestly I have no idea what Cryptic was thinking in general. If they wanted disables to be of more use vs NPCs that now have 100s of thousands of Hit points... fine. We know they have the ability to add a VS players argument to items and skills. Being new skills it shouldn't have been hard to add a -50% effect vs players argument to all the stun durations. Not doing that just shows what they think of PvP in general. Its not even an afterthought.
Comments
I haven't dogfighted (dogfought?) a T6 escort with my JHAS yet, but I did do a 1v1 with a friend who had a T6 cruiser and the Phantom's trait. Needless to say, I wasn't really making any progress on his hull.
Hm... I really have a lot of reserves in stating that a Recluse or a Science Odyssey are outclassed in their main role aka healing. Out of all those tier 6 ships, I don't think there's one that can pull out more than 260 Shield Emitters skill.
I agree on the Faeht however. Hands down best vaper period. I can pull off easily 150k raw crits with the Lance; with GDF, possibly beyond the 200k mark.
the goal posts have been moved. if you deal weapons damage and you cant slot OSS or SS, your a relic. OSS pretty much averages out to another copy of APA, active for 20 seconds with a 30 second cool down. OSS2, the best you can get unless you have 22 specialization intel points, peeks at an 80% energy weapon damage buff for the first second.
SS is brutally effective especially in PVP, it takes the reason why DHCs are great, and doubles down, not to mention cant miss and cant not crit. ionic, in addition to the turning off of boff skills, is also a big hull debuff, another one to stack to make someone pop like an egg. nothing tier 5U can do any of this, these things that can nearly double effectiveness when used right
bops are hard to rate, mini and others get kills in them in spite of them sucking. they can fit whats needed to vap best, so they can do that well. very well.
tanking really isn't a thing anymore. you can be 1 shot 3 times over then you could pre DR. ionic, EMP, and viral torp all strait up turn off your ability to respond, if you cant activate buffs and counters there is no tanking. so what good are the best healers and tanks in this meta
uber lance, auto expose of the active sensors thing turning off all eng skills and most of your hull res if they even survive the lance, 5 tac consoles, EBC, sci LTC, COM intel and LTC tac, its ideal for an in and out 1 shot
It has already been proven that a bugship generally is inferior to any decent tac pilot in a xindi escort. From my own pre-DR duels I have never suffered a defeat against any bugship, not even close. The 5 fore weapon slots and the boff layout make the difference. On the one hand, the bugship has a very tac-heavy boff layout while its main strength was based on a high base turn rate and hullpower in the past that has made it to the pinnacle of escorts dominating the pvp-scene for a long time. But on the other hand it has been dethroned by some other escorts meanwhile, among them the xindi one that can convince with an outrageous firepower and an eng-heavy boff seating in which skills like aux2damp can be utilized, in order to match the weaker turn rate easily and to have more hull resistances than a JHAS, without sacrificing RSP.
As a matter of fact the xindi escort should be more than capable of handling t6 escorts if a bugship can do so.
Cheers.
-=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
Yes most premades use xindi over the bug because 5 DHC is better then more turn and speed, bug is still better in kerrat and cap and hold and pugging I think. It can out run or outmanuver anyone it can't outfight, there is no need to stay in range of xindi 1v1 until its weak
Dammit. I bought the Guardian based off of what you suggested originally.
At least it'll make a decent healer.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Pretty much agree with all of that.
Agreed, most are certainly obsolete when compared to T6 ships.
The only one I've seen to have any real success is the Recluse (healer/tank wise anyway), but that might change when it's having to deal with teams made up of 3+ T6 ships.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
DAIZEN come play tanks **** this ****
Lol, I'm seriously considering it.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
eh sorry? at least its trait gives you a 25k hull heal and shield regen at random. and since it can slot OSS2, even ranked at 7 its should still be FAW scimitar tier. its still the best traditional beam boat cruiser, and it looks pretty nice too. its also just about ody tier if you want to make a healer out of it.
yep no prob. just to complete the thought i was thinking about doing it anyway.
Thanks for making this thread Drunk, a lot of people (now including me) can find it useful for buying the right ship.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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it was healing like a tier 3 ship up to the last patch, so i bet it feels much more sturdy at least recently!
I'd like to know what makes you think it's on Odyssey's level of healing. The trait isn't an exclusive of the Guardian, and falls back in terms of survivability IMO.
Odyssey
XX
XXXX
X
XX
TRIBBLE
Consoles (T5U): 5/4/2
Guardian
TRIBBLE
XXXX
XX*
TRIBBLE
X
Consoles: 4/3/3
*Note that the Guardian can run Intel abilities with its Lt Eng seat.
Currently AFAIK, most of the new Intel abilities cannot be countered fully with the existing tac/sci/eng Teams. Only Intel team clears Expose Vulnerabilities and possibly other effects that depend on a target lock (as IT temporarily "cloaks" your ship).
** edit: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Basically, the major differences between the Guardian and the Sci Oddy are:
- Oddy has a Lt Sci seat, where Guardian has potentially an Ens Sci. So basically the Oddy can slot a HE2 or TSS2 where the Guardian cannot.
- Oddy has 1 more eng and 1 more sci consoles than the Guardian. 5 eng is redundant, having an extra sci console may be useful for Emitter Array or field gen consoles. Not a huge game changer.
- Guardian has a LtCmdr Tac seat. This is pretty important, the Guardian can run TT1 and TT2 and have APO1 or APD2 available. APD2 because it's castable on teammates, or APO1 for turning quickly to aid teammates who fly out of heal range. (Why two copies of TT? So they're up as often as possible, either on you or a teammate to save their lives.) Also, APO gives you immunity to hold effects like tractors and TBR, which is also useful.
- Guardian also has a Lt Eng/Intel as opposed to the Oddy's potential Ens Eng. This is super important. Not only does this let the Guardian slot an extra Lt Eng ability, it's also an Intel seat - which in DR, is critical for survival. If your team is facing a squad of T6 ships, and you don't have intel team to counter it, you and your team are vulnerable with no means of countering the new intel powers. (Good luck doing anything while EM Probe is disabling you.) So while the Oddy may squeeze out greater heal numbers, it now has to do that same job before it gets slaughtered. And if you, the teamhealer, are dead, you've failed your purpose in supporting your team.
- Guardian has the T5 Mastery trait. I could say the Oddy and any other ship on the same character could get that trait too, but if you have the Guardian already, why switch back?
- also, Guardian has its own special console which, IMO, is more useful than the Work Bee, saucer sep, or Aquarius.
TL;DR:
Guardian is superior because it can do almost the same job as an Oddy, but last longer due to Intel Team.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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sorry but your argument is totally invalid. Intelligence abilities do not provide heals for your team. Without AtB they can't even go down in CDs. LtCmdr tac seat is good for nothing, have APO with a 60 seconds Cd doing nothing? Wut?
Odyssey's absolute zero tactical focus makes it resilient. 5 Engineering consoles and 4 science to fill with fleet emitter arrays. 5 Engi are NOT redundant on a healer, they are on the Avenger.
Guardian trait isn't an exclusive of the ship, another invalid argument.
Try doing this on the Guardian:
3 Enhanced Neutronium Alloys, 1 SIF Generator, 1 Conductive RCS Accelerator +Emitter, 4 Fleet Emitter arrays, Enhanced Plasma Manifold, subspace jumper. I have 190 hull repair, more than 260 Shield Emitters skills, 50% base resists to everything without buffs.
You're doing nothing with an added ensign power. Everything you need is double EPTX, Extend, ET, ATSIF. Maybe a RSP, but I never felt the need of it if you're tank enough.
Remember that a healer needs only to self sustain and support the team. Damage dealing is for others. Every tick of the build that's not for healing purposes drives you away from what you're supposed to do.
Guardian can make a fine healer, but not on par with the Odyssey.
Ah, did I say you don't have Sensor Analysis and thus unable to severely increase the healing on an ally, or make an enemy squisher to kill for your team?
Sorry but you just seem to struggle finding perks where there aren't. The [T6] sign doesn't mean it's superior. Let's be honest, is too tactical based to compete.
wile its not far off from an ody for heal duty, it can also FAW as hard as a scimitar thanks to OSS2. what a crummy ship!
Dead...dead...DEAD! *grinz*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHJoj9IqeKg
Kill Feddie.
Waff
Wait wait wait wait wait I've got it!
When someone tries to vape my Odyssey in PvP and fails http://youtu.be/YTONyoPkMTs
Ahahhahaahahahahhahaha masterpiece video
I respectfully disagree. (That is, I disagree if the theory holds that Ionic Turbulence, EMP Probe, and other Intel abilities cannot be countered with regular Tac/Sci/Eng abilities. If they can, I retract the following.)
** EDIT: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Prior to Delta Rising and the release of Intel abilities, I would 110% agree with you. Sci Oddy and other ships with heavy sci and eng seats and consoles would be dominant healers. And I agree that if your Sci Oddy is facing opponents who don't use Intel abilities, your Oddy is still the dominant healer - both in healing numbers and general effectiveness in keeping team members alive.
But with the crazy new Intel abilities like the disabler EMP probe and Ionic Turbulence, what tac/sci captain wouldn't get a T6 ship to use these powers against healers?
The Sci Oddy, and every other non-T6 ship, cannot mount a defense against the new Intel abilities. Consider a 5 man team spamming ionic turbulence. Your Oddy will be disabled, and there isn't a thing you can do to counter it.
The question becomes this: Can an Oddy or other T5/T5U healer ship still be effective teamhealers, if they are easily disabled and cannot remove the disable? My answer is no.
However, Guardian Cruisers can mount Intel abilities, such as Intel Team. Intel Team offers an increase in Stealth, threat reduction, and cleanses Intel effects like Expose Vulnerabilities (I'm probably forgetting other effects Intel team also has). So unless I'm mistaken, it is the only effective power to cleanse Intel abilities that would disable your ship.
Therefore, the Guardian is the superior healer simply because it can remove Intel disables, which means it can continue a) defending itself if it's under attack, and b) healing teammates.
People often forget that a theoretical build doesn't always work out in the practical environment (I sometimes do the same). It's important to realize what kinds of enemies, and their types of attacks, your ship will be facing in PvP. It's important to realize that any build has faults; to recognize those faults and assess whether it's practical to continue with the ship and build you have, or if it's time to move on to something that will work in the practical world.
As for gear:
APO gives you immunity to tractors and a turn boost. For slow turning ships like the Guardian, these two benefits allow you to follow the rest of your team more effectively. It also saves you from having to run with Polarize Hull to counter tractors, if you are short on sci seating.
3 Enhanced Neutronium grants you a huge amount of damage resistance, but it does little towards HRR (Hull Repair). I would recommend 2x Neut and 2x SIF, just to get that HRR rating up. (Running two Mk XI Purples gets me above 200% HRR. Biotech patch also helps as well.)
RCS consoles aren't needed when you have Evasive and APO on hand. This helps you invest more console space in Neuts, SIFs, or universal consoles such as Borg Module (Borg Module + KCB + Omega gives you the 3pc ability which grants you immunity to damage, or something similar. Again, something that keeps you alive longer.), Fluidic Space Decoupler (turn boost and immunity to targeting and damage), subspace jumper, etc. If you're running a Romulan healer, Molecular Phase Inversion Field is another option which grants you +100000% defense, immunity to kinetic damage, increased flight speed and turn rate, and still allows you to heal yourself or teammates while it runs for 15 seconds. (Note: STOWiki is wrong about the defense rating. In-game, the MPIF has 100k% defense. I have the console.)
And 5 eng consoles IS redundant. 4 is sufficient to run 2x neut and 2x SIF. I'd rather have 4/4/2 or 4/4/3. I do retract my statement of the Oddy's 5 eng consoles being redundant, as the Oddy has 4 sci consoles and thus isn't lacking. The Guardian only has 5/3/3 and that lack of a 4th sci console hurts its sci related skills like shield emitters and shield repair skills. So true, the Oddy does have that advantage.
TL;DR:
Intel disables (EMP probe, Ionic Turbulence) are dangerous and need a counter.
T5/T5U ships cannot counter Intel abilities, but Guardian can.
Therefore, Guardian > T5/T5U healers, simply because it counters Intel disables. Guardian therefore survives longer, which is enough to keep healing teammates.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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From the "disable online" thread:
I admit there is a chance Salieri may be mistaken. I'll try to verify this myself the next time I log on.
** EDIT: Intel Team does NOT cleanse all Intel abilities; only Gather Intelligence (T6 ships). **
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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how do you use a station power to clear something when you cant use any station powers
I'd imagine it would be similar to the baseball. With the baseball, every station power is blacked out except EngTeam. With the traditional eng/sci/tac abilities, there is at least one ability that counters it or at least can be activated.
Cryptic wouldn't be so stupid as to create boff abilities which have no counter... wait never mind, anything's possible with Cryptic.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Gather Intel has no disable effects. There's one very short hold. Like two seconds. You aren't clearing that anyway. Not practical.
Every other intel ability has a counter, even if that counter is called 'not sitting still'. Except for I think one. Viral Burst does its damage so quickly it may not be worth clearing. But otherwise.....
I respectfully disagree. (That is, I disagree if the theory holds that Ionic Turbulence, EMP Probe, and other Intel abilities cannot be countered with regular Tac/Sci/Eng abilities. If they can, I retract the following.)
Ship Mastery. Now there is something different. Take a look at those.
And...furthermore...you're right about even the two Intel slots available for the Guardian being potentially game changing for that ship. Especially, and of course, when combined with completed Ship Mastery from the other T6 ships.
Just you're right but your arguments are flawed, so NO SOUP FOR YOU ONE YEAR!!
That's absolutely priceless. Here:
Annnnnd...doesn't Intel Team only remove the Gather Intell exposes that only feature zero disables?
Why are you spreading misinformation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTTom_t3OeM#t=1136
thats not true. Tactical Team/Eng Team/Sci Team/Hazzards clean the debuffs from the inteligence bridge officer abilities, the only ones that are only clean by intel team are those from the gather inteligence of the intel ships.
All responses from that same thread.
I didn't want to touch Starship Mastery. Opening too many doors at once. I agree though, that's another issue which places the Guardian above other ships.
Awesome, thanks Thissler for clarifying. I'll go back and place warnings on all of the posts I wrote earlier.
(This is why I should watch your videos more often, in the interim when I don't have access to the game)
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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I should prolly go back and put warnings on most of mine as well.:)
How can it possibly be that high when it has a lowly Lt. SCI boff and 2 SCI consoles ? I was gonna take another look at it but it's just as useless as I remember. 5 ENG consoles - wtf.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Yes it was a poorly crafted joke. Sorry about that one.
The intel disables are a pain to cleans. (Not joking) I do believe Engi team still clears the disables... assuming your carrying one and its not on cool down. The Intel disables are extremely spammy is the main issue I think. Its very easy to fly a ship with VM torp 5s disables every 20s... AMP disables of 8-12s every 30s... chain that stuff with things like ionic and even Viral burst. It does lead to a crazy amount of annoying disables.
Cryptic forgot MMO PvP rule number 1... players hate being disabled.
The very first version of VM at launch almost killed this games pvp before it even started.
Honestly I have no idea what Cryptic was thinking in general. If they wanted disables to be of more use vs NPCs that now have 100s of thousands of Hit points... fine. We know they have the ability to add a VS players argument to items and skills. Being new skills it shouldn't have been hard to add a -50% effect vs players argument to all the stun durations. Not doing that just shows what they think of PvP in general. Its not even an afterthought.