lets look at this form a game content and general point of view form the idea of a game and not a stockmarket.
Not possible. This is a F2P game with player controlled/driven exchanges and exchange rates. It is simply NOT possible to consider any financial aspect of the game, without taking into account how those exchanges work.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
raising the cap would TRIBBLE up far more then it would help. look at the neverwinter exchange it takes week to get zen and it's at the cap all the time. and then they'ld have to up the price on everything like being a to get a VR weapon in a few days cap raise would kill that. and have you seen their zen shop... you think 50 dollars is bad for a ship 3 pack? try that for a mount not even any kind of combat mount just get from point a to point b faster mount.
you mean people might actually reach their goals without spending months in game waiting on timers?! GASP you mean it might actually make the game more enjoyable?! GASP! I know such a terrible idea, to make a game of all things actually fun, that isn't a good idea at all games are supposed to be hard work you know! Why why someone might actually smile when they login!
Two things that, I think, haven't been brought up yet:
1. Free players can refine up to 24k Dil per day, if they make use of the 3 character slots they're given. Once they're active enough to surpass the 8k refinement cap every day, I think they should definitely start diverting some dil-grinding efforts to auxiliary characters.
2. Has it occured to you that the current depths of dil-sinks (rep stores, fleet stores, crafting and soon gear upgrade) have been designed with the cap in mind; that you're supposed to wait X refinement-days before you can get item Y or level Z?
Zen is a part of the game. You can't just ignore the Dilithium:Zen market when talking about Dilithium. How much Lockbox or Lobi gear is flying around? All from Zen, including Fleet ship modules. Ignoring the impact such a change would have on the Dilithium:Zen exchange is essentially asking to ignore the major negative long term consequences for minor short term benefits.
Let's break this down again, because some people appear to be really bad at economics. Assume you make 4k dilithium ore an hour (which is not a casual player, but I digress):
With a refining cap of 8k and the current dilithium sinks, the Dil:Zen exchange rate is 185:1, which means you need 370k Dil to get 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 92.5 hours of work, and it takes 47 days to refine.
With a refining cap of 16k and no other changes, the Dil:Zen exchange rate should jump to around 370:1 - however people will start putting up Zen to take advantage of the high rates, so let's call it 300:1 instead. That would mean you need 600k Dil to get the 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 150 hours of work, and it takes 37.5 days to refine.
So yeah, you get things quicker. You just need to do a lot more work for anything to do with Zen - like Fleet ships, C-Store ships, account upgrades, etc.
you mean people might actually reach their goals without spending months in game waiting on timers?! GASP you mean it might actually make the game more enjoyable?! GASP! I know such a terrible idea, to make a game of all things actually fun, that isn't a good idea at all games are supposed to be hard work you know! Why why someone might actually smile when they login!
Indeed.
Smiling when you log in is the goal.
Consider this.
The current price of zen is around 185 dil when I looked last night.
That gives you a bit more than 40 zen per 8k dil refined.
Thus, a free player, with the market in the sort of zone it is now, can save up 1000 zen for something in 25 days or so.
The theoretical upper limit of the price of zen is 500 dilithium.
Whenever there is a flood of refined dilithium into the exchange, the price trends up.
You can see this for yourself following dilithium events.
Let's assume that they do raise the cap and refned dilithium floods the market.
Let's assume the price reaches 400. A point it has been at in the past.
Now, your 8k dilithium a day gets you 20 zen a day.
Saving up for that 1000 zen item will take you 50 days, minimum.
You're quite right.
It's about figuring out what makes people smile.
Access to zen items in a timely manner is also part of that.
...snip...
1. Free players can refine up to 24k Dil per day, if they make use of the 3 character slots they're given. Once they're active enough to surpass the 8k refinement cap every day, I think they should definitely start diverting some dil-grinding efforts to auxiliary characters.
...snip...
I see this one brought up frequently. While it is technically true, I can easily earn 8k+ on each of my three characters a day if I try, you have to devote some time into doing so. For more casual players or those who don't have a couple of hours per character per day to spend on it, it's not so easy.
So while it may be technically true, for the more casual players, it's not very practical.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Zen is a part of the game. You can't just ignore the Dilithium:Zen market when talking about Dilithium. How much Lockbox or Lobi gear is flying around? All from Zen, including Fleet ship modules.
Ignoring the impact such a change would have on the Dilithium:Zen exchange is essentially asking to ignore the major negative long term consequences for minor short term benefits.
Let's break this down again, because some people appear to be really[/]i bad at economics.
Let's assume you make 4k dilithium ore an hour (which is not a casual player, but I digress).
With a refining cap of 8k and the current dilithium sinks, the Dil:Zen exchange rate is 185:1, which means you need 370k Dil to get 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 92.5 hours of work, and it takes 47 days to refine.
With a refining cap of 16k and no other changes, the Dil:Zen exchange rate should jump to around 370:1 - however people will start putting up Zen to take advantage of the high rates, so let's call it 300:1 instead. That would mean you need 600k Dil to get the 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 150 hours of work, and it takes 37.5 days to refine.
So yeah, you get things quicker. You just need to do a lot more work for anything to do with Zen - like Fleet ships, C-Store ships, account upgrades, etc.
I may not be a casual player but even your description of a Casual player is off. Someone spending and hour or 2 a day fits my description of a casual player. and if they do it right they can make the cap in those 2 hours. I would love to here your description of a casual player.
and thw whole exchange issue. In the end is TRIBBLE because even to you guys it has jumped up to 400:1 at one point and that is with the current cap. so your best arguement against the cap raise is weak from the start.
I may not be a casual player but even your description of a Casual player is off. Someone spending and hour or 2 a day fits my description of a casual player. and if they do it right they can make the cap in those 2 hours. I would love to here your description of a casual player.
...snip...
I don't know about anyone else, but if I only have an hour or two to play, I don't want to spend all of my time "making my cap", I'd rather be doing something I enjoy. If that enjoyment pays off with Dil, great,... but logging in for two hours a day to focus on making the 8k cap, seems more like work and less like play to me.
"Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Has it occured to you that the current depths of dil-sinks (rep stores, fleet stores, crafting and soon gear upgrade) have been designed with the cap in mind; that you're supposed to wait X refinement-days before you can get item Y or level Z?
This is a very good point. They time gated the reputation system which gives us (current) endgame gear, they're time gating the upgrade system which will give us the new endgame gear, they time gated Fleet progression which give access to (current) endgame gear, there's no reason to assume they did not time gate our ability to purchase said (current) endgame gear.
I don't know about anyone else, but if I only have an hour or two to play, I don't want to spend all of my time "making my cap", I'd rather be doing something I enjoy. If that enjoyment pays off with Dil, great,... but logging in for two hours a day to focus on making the 8k cap, seems more like work and less like play to me.
say you are casual and have finished all the story, what's left. Fleet and reps, and now crafting. and say that day they wanted to helo the fleet. they could do it by cap. But still how short does it have to be to be casual to you?
Oh, again those hilarious claims "DOOM !!! DOOM !!! The game economy will immediately fall apart after the cap rise. DOOM !!!"
I'm quite confident that +1-2k cap increase, for instance, will have near zero influence on the game economy. The way vendor trash EC costs nerf did absolutely nothing to counter the EC inflation - because the problem was approached from the completely wrong direction.
I may not be a casual player but even your description of a Casual player is off. Someone spending and hour or 2 a day fits my description of a casual player. and if they do it right they can make the cap in those 2 hours. I would love to here your description of a casual player.
There is a difference between someone hanging out at a bar for 1-2 hours a day having 1-2 drinks, and someone hanging out at a bar 1-2 hours a day having 8-10 drinks. One is a casual drinker, the other is an alcoholic.
You said "if they do it right", and that right there means they are not casual players. If they have to "do it right", then they're doing something specific, not playing casually.
The casual player will be wandering around doing what looks like fun - maybe an eSTF or two, perhaps a mission, maybe a Battlezone, maybe just fly around DOffing. There may be days when they hit 8k, but they're not going to make an average of 8k per day.
Prior to S7, the average amount of dilithium earned by an active level 50 player was only 3k per session.
and thw whole exchange issue. In the end is TRIBBLE because even to you guys it has jumped up to 400:1 at one point and that is with the current cap. so your best arguement against the cap raise is weak from the start.
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate. This is basic high school economics, Econ 101.
There is a difference between someone hanging out at a bar for 1-2 hours a day having 1-2 drinks, and someone hanging out at a bar 1-2 hours a day having 8-10 drinks. One is a casual drinker, the other is an alcoholic.
You said "if they do it right", and that right there means they are not casual players. If they have to "do it right", then they're doing something specific, not playing casually.
The casual player will be wandering around doing what looks like fun - maybe an eSTF or two, perhaps a mission, maybe a Battlezone, maybe just fly around DOffing. There may be days when they hit 8k, but they're not going to make an average of 8k per day.
Prior to S7, the average amount of dilithium earned by an active level 50 player was only 3k per session.
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate. This is basic high school economics, Econ 101.
yet we've seen it rise and fall without the cap being changed. Your agruement is a failure from the start.
The exchange already has gone up. I couple years ago it was 115 dil for 1 zen. Now it's 185 dil for 1 zen. and that's no change to cap. What has changed is the amount of things that NEED dil. Fleet projects, Fleet gear, rep gear. all need dil, and some INSANE amount of dil. And wallet warrior is someone would can regularly and easily churn out cash for zen. good for them that they do. they got a job that allows that. not every body does. I had about 5 toons grind dil to about 20k with two that got the CE event completed and in the end that gave me about 1300 zen and I'm aiming for the KDF version of the Oddy which is 5000 zen. Oh then add to the fact we need zen to upgrade our ships when DR comes out so that's either wallet or MORE DIL GRINDING. raising the cap will not hurt the game at all.
The above quote is from page 6, but I don't think it has been directly addressed.
Yes, the exchange rate to convert dilithium to Zen has increased over time. When I 1st started playing STO and took notice of the exchange rate it was 127:1. Compared to the present day it has increased by roughly 46%. You are correct that the cap limit has not changed, so why the increase in the exchange rate?
There have been many posts during the course of the year that a lot of large fleets have completed all starbase projects or are almost completed. Since these projects can require millions of refine dilithium they were huge dilithium sinks. Now that apparent many fleets have completed or have nearly completed all available starbase projects, there is less of a need to dilithium to be consumed in the economy. Yes, there are still fleets out there that have not reached Tier 5 yet. But the ones that have completed all the starbase projects have no more need for dilithium... at least to the best of my knowledge since I am not in a fleet.
However, dilithium is still entering the economy because people are still grinding for dilithium. Even "causal players" who generally do not care about grinding and simply just want to have fun are introducing more dilithium into the economy every day. Every time someone successfully completes a Doff missions more dilithium is added to the economy. "Casual players" who play STFs for fun are going to be rewarded with dilithium. This is inflation that is similar to EC inflation, but the daily refinement cap is at least a very effective control mechanism per toon. Per account is a different story.
People who are looking to purchase dilithium with Zen knows there is a lot of excess dilithium in the economy right now and it keeps piling up because a lot of the dilithium sinks have disappeared since many fleets have maxed out their starbases. Therefore, those people selling Zen can now demand more dilithium for each Zen they sell. This goes back to supply and demand.
Once there are new massive dilithium sinks (like Tier 6 starbase projects), then the exchange rate will being to go down because potentially the current surplus of refined dilithium will be diverted to those new starbase projects. I would imagine that a Tier 6 Fleet Starship will require a Tier 6 Shipyard in order for fleet members to purchase said new Tier 6 Fleet Starship.
The exchange rate will go back down, you just need to be patient...
some of us arn't willing to pay to play this game, but saying that i have bought over half the fed ships. This game is free to play and some of us are sticking to that i dont wanna have to pay 5 bucks every week to get a boost of dilith. and like i said us "casual" gamers wont pay that close attention as we dont play this 24/7
as you are a casual gamer surely you don't get that much dilithium to refine anyhow, personally I am a fairly heavy player or so I have been told but hardly ever exceed in rewards the 8k a day limit per character (only have 3).
having said that I have no problem meeting all of my dilithium needs I do all my reps, get what stuff I need, am one of the top donators in my fleet and still have enough left to convert to zen to top up my stipend so I can buy stuff I want from the c-store, just in this year alone I have saved enough to buy the dyson mega pack 10,000zen and have enough to buy the DR pack when it hopefully hits the store 16,000zen plus a few other bit and pieses I wanted.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
yet we've seen it rise and fall without the cap being changed. Your agruement is a failure from the start.
The fact that other factors affect the value of dilithium does not mean the cap has no effect on dilithium.
To restate:
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate.
What part of the above do you not understand? Do you need me to explain supply and demand? I don't really feel like explaining high school econ here.
You're the only one who seems to disagree with basic economic theory. What are you, a frosh in high school or something?
The fact that other factors affect the value of dilithium does not mean the cap has no effect on dilithium.
To restate:
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate.
What part of the above do you not understand? Do you need me to explain supply and demand? I don't really feel like explaining high school econ here.
You're the only one who seems to disagree with basic economic theory. What are you, a frosh in high school or something?
But it is your biggest arguement against a cap. if ther are other factors then why are you against a dil cap raise?
But it is your biggest arguement against a cap. if ther are other factors then why are you against a dil cap raise?
First of all, if A+B+C=D, the fact the B and C also affect D does not mean A has no effect on D. Clear?
Second, if the cap goes up, (some) people will have more dilithium, which means people will be willing to pay more dilithium for Zen.
(This is because value is relative. If you think 150 dil for 1 zen is reasonable when you have 500k Dil, when you have 5,000k dil you'd think 250 dil for Zen is cheap. I had over 100 million EC, and I spent about 30 million EC equipping my shuttle just for that shuttle event. If I only had 50 million EC, there's no way I'd be willing to spend more than half my savings for it. Some people think $25 is a reasonable price for dinner, some people think it's ridiculously expensive.)
So the value of dilithium has depreciated against Zen.
Assuming you finally accept this simple bit of economics, what consequences will that have?
Full disclosure - I never buy Zen with Dilithium. I work in finance, I have minimal expenses and lots of disposable income. I spent like $300 on STO over the last two months, including buying the DR Ops pack.
As someone who spends Zen, depreciation of Dilithium is in my favor. My Zen and stipend would now buy more dilithium. This is to my personal benefit.
So getting back to your question - why am I against it?
I'm against it because it hurts the ability of the majority, the casual players who dont earn an average of 8k Dil every day, from being able to acquire Zen.
Someone who earns an average of 3k Dil every day is already short 5k Dil per day compared to someone who hits the cap at 8k every day. Raise the cap, and the former's spending power decreases even more due to the latter causing inflation.
Pricing the money store items further out of reach hurts the attractiveness of the game. Since I've got an LTS, I'd like STO to stay alive for as long as possible. So, no thanks.
I'd like to conclude by nothing that in the dev blog I'd already linked, they state quite clearly they keep an eye on how we (the majority) earn dilithium, and balance prices against that. They've already tweaked dilithium costs, the refined dilithium income/expenses is clearly where they want it.
I may not be a casual player but even your description of a Casual player is off. Someone spending and hour or 2 a day fits my description of a casual player. and if they do it right they can make the cap in those 2 hours. I would love to here your description of a casual player.
and thw whole exchange issue. In the end is TRIBBLE because even to you guys it has jumped up to 400:1 at one point and that is with the current cap. so your best arguement against the cap raise is weak from the start.
You seem to have no clue what casual players are. You have not given 1 solid argument for cap increase. You recycle the same points that have been taken care of. You seem to have no clue how the in game economy works. You are deflecting onto the opposition to prove their stance when you have yet to validate yours beyond personal greed.
Shouldnt the question be "why you extorting more from your loyal fan base?" rather than asking for Dil cap increase?
In case you did not realize it the people playing the game are consumers, not best buds of Cryptic. STO is not a charity for down-and-out Trek fans who have not had a Prime Universe Trek fix in nearly a decade.
Cryptic makes a product and you decide how much you are willing to pay for the product: a value between full price and zero dollars depending on your own sweat equity; to nothing at all if you are not interested in the product.
That is the extent of your relationship.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
First of all, if A+B+C=D, the fact the B and C also affect D does not mean A has no effect on D. Clear?
Second, if the cap goes up, (some) people will have more dilithium, which means people will be willing to pay more dilithium for Zen.
(This is because value is relative. If you think 150 dil for 1 zen is reasonable when you have 500k Dil, when you have 5,000k dil you'd think 250 dil for Zen is cheap. I had over 100 million EC, and I spent about 30 million EC equipping my shuttle just for that shuttle event. If I only had 50 million EC, there's no way I'd be willing to spend more than half my savings for it. Some people think $25 is a reasonable price for dinner, some people think it's ridiculously expensive.)
So the value of dilithium has depreciated against Zen.
Assuming you finally accept this simple bit of economics, what consequences will that have?
Full disclosure - I never buy Zen with Dilithium. I work in finance, I have minimal expenses and lots of disposable income. I spent like $300 on STO over the last two months, including buying the DR Ops pack.
As someone who spends Zen, depreciation of Dilithium is in my favor. My Zen and stipend would now buy more dilithium. This is to my personal benefit.
So getting back to your question - why am I against it?
I'm against it because it hurts the ability of the majority, the casual players who dont earn an average of 8k Dil every day, from being able to acquire Zen.
Someone who earns an average of 3k Dil every day is already short 5k Dil per day compared to someone who hits the cap at 8k every day. Raise the cap, and the former's spending power decreases even more due to the latter causing inflation.
Pricing the money store items further out of reach hurts the attractiveness of the game. Since I've got an LTS, I'd like STO to stay alive for as long as possible. So, no thanks.
I'd like to conclude by nothing that in the dev blog I'd already linked, they state quite clearly they keep an eye on how we (the majority) earn dilithium, and balance prices against that. They've already tweaked dilithium costs, the refined dilithium income/expenses is clearly where they want it.
do you have any proof that the casual player doesn't reach the 8k mark? Has there been a survey anywhere?
You seem to have no clue what casual players are. You have not given 1 solid argument for cap increase. You recycle the same points that have been taken care of. You seem to have no clue how the in game economy works. You are deflecting onto the opposition to prove their stance when you have yet to validate yours beyond personal greed.
Actually I have you just refuse to see it. The amount of content that require Dilithium has and will increase. When DR hits we will have Rep, Fleet, Crafting, and the ship and weapons upgrades that are coming. ALL require Dilithium at some point.
My fleet has 2 Lifers who have been here since beta who have tons of unrefined dil that even with their status as lifers and our fleet mines still can't refine it all. I frankly they are tired of those of you who have only been lifers a year while they had 4 years under their belt
THe closest thing to a logic point you have is the exchange point and that is really weak since that is in flux all the time and even you guys admit more then the amount of dil in the exchange is only one factor of many for the price.
Face it, in the end you have no real arguement against it.
we all know and love the pound £ or some may use other currency but the value of the pound teeters on a knife edge, the bank of England has to ensure that there is just the right amount of pound`s in circulation to hold its value if there were too many pounds in circulation the value would fall dramatically.
it has happened before in other countries, this is where you see bank notes with more zeros the ive had birthdays and they are worth about 50p.
this was caused by countries printing much more money then the economy could stand and it just ended up devaluing that currency.
in sto our main in game currency is refined dilithium, sto has to ensure that only a certain amount of dilithium is in circulation at any one time.
we play certain missions or do certain events and are rewarded with ore that has no value until its refined.
there is an 8000 dil daily refine cap per character to ensure only a certain amount enters the game.
at the same time there are certain things in place that take dilithium back out of the game, fleet holdings, ships, doffs, weapons ect.
zen to dil exchange is like the games version of the dollar to pound exchange when the value of dil rises you get more zen for your dil when the value of dil falls you get less.
there have been a lot of things recently that have made the value of dil fall, there have been a lot of dil weekend events and other big dil payouts but dil has not been going out of the game as much as it used to as many fleets don't need dil at the moment and many players have all the weapons they need.
DR will address this slightly as there are some things that will take dil out of the game, hopefully we will see the value of dil rise somewhat and maybe given time get back to the 100>1zen it used to be.
having said that there will still not enough dil going out of the game to make as much difference as all the fleets that were taking it.
if the refine cap was raised by even 2000dil per character a day this would have a similar effect to the value of dil as what happened to those countries that printed too much money.
if you want to take a look at the worlds most worthless currencies take a look at this -
I had an idea for give a better value to the subscription for casual gamer and for who want to support the game, and even advantage people who just buy zen sometimes when they feel want.
But i just recieved hate and reject of player who are just freeloader and have tim e to farm 15 toons for the dilithim, this kind of player is the reason of why we have to pay more and more in this game, because people who invest in the game, in fact pay for this kind of people who do everything for have every stuff in the store for free.
So don't blame cryptic but blame player who fight for keep this game in this state and make cryptic have to find more and more way to make player to pay even if that make the game lose all is fun.
Actually I have you just refuse to see it. The amount of content that require Dilithium has and will increase. When DR hits we will have Rep, Fleet, Crafting, and the ship and weapons upgrades that are coming. ALL require Dilithium at some point.
My fleet has 2 Lifers who have been here since beta who have tons of unrefined dil that even with their status as lifers and our fleet mines still can't refine it all. I frankly they are tired of those of you who have only been lifers a year while they had 4 years under their belt
THe closest thing to a logic point you have is the exchange point and that is really weak since that is in flux all the time and even you guys admit more then the amount of dil in the exchange is only one factor of many for the price.
Face it, in the end you have no real arguement against it.
You still think Rep Projects cost DIL. That show's your ignorant. Can you actually give a valid argument or just keep reposting the same "my fleet ahs 2 lifers.." line? I have countered and /or remedied all your "arguments". You have no argument for it, multiple people have give arguments against it.
When DR hits we will have Rep, Fleet, Crafting, and the ship and weapons upgrades that are coming. ALL require Dilithium at some point.
My fleet has 2 Lifers who have been here since beta who have tons of unrefined dil that even with their status as lifers and our fleet mines still can't refine it all. I frankly they are tired of those of you who have only been lifers a year while they had 4 years under their belt
THe closest thing to a logic point you have is the exchange point and that is really weak since that is in flux all the time and even you guys admit more then the amount of dil in the exchange is only one factor of many for the price.
Face it, in the end you have no real arguement against it.
Until the devs report that their datamining shows different results it does.
Picard&Riker_double_facepalm.jpeg
We don't have the current data, only one two years old, when situation concerning dilithium expanses was entirely different - but let's not say that we don't have a clue, let's instead base our argument on the vague and far-fetched assumption that it's somehow still valid. A powerful logic for sure.
Comments
Not possible. This is a F2P game with player controlled/driven exchanges and exchange rates. It is simply NOT possible to consider any financial aspect of the game, without taking into account how those exchanges work.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
you mean people might actually reach their goals without spending months in game waiting on timers?! GASP you mean it might actually make the game more enjoyable?! GASP! I know such a terrible idea, to make a game of all things actually fun, that isn't a good idea at all games are supposed to be hard work you know! Why why someone might actually smile when they login!
1. Free players can refine up to 24k Dil per day, if they make use of the 3 character slots they're given. Once they're active enough to surpass the 8k refinement cap every day, I think they should definitely start diverting some dil-grinding efforts to auxiliary characters.
2. Has it occured to you that the current depths of dil-sinks (rep stores, fleet stores, crafting and soon gear upgrade) have been designed with the cap in mind; that you're supposed to wait X refinement-days before you can get item Y or level Z?
Let's break this down again, because some people appear to be really bad at economics. Assume you make 4k dilithium ore an hour (which is not a casual player, but I digress):
With a refining cap of 8k and the current dilithium sinks, the Dil:Zen exchange rate is 185:1, which means you need 370k Dil to get 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 92.5 hours of work, and it takes 47 days to refine.
With a refining cap of 16k and no other changes, the Dil:Zen exchange rate should jump to around 370:1 - however people will start putting up Zen to take advantage of the high rates, so let's call it 300:1 instead. That would mean you need 600k Dil to get the 2000 Zen for a Fleet ship.
At 4k an hour, that means 150 hours of work, and it takes 37.5 days to refine.
So yeah, you get things quicker. You just need to do a lot more work for anything to do with Zen - like Fleet ships, C-Store ships, account upgrades, etc.
Indeed.
Smiling when you log in is the goal.
Consider this.
The current price of zen is around 185 dil when I looked last night.
That gives you a bit more than 40 zen per 8k dil refined.
Thus, a free player, with the market in the sort of zone it is now, can save up 1000 zen for something in 25 days or so.
The theoretical upper limit of the price of zen is 500 dilithium.
Whenever there is a flood of refined dilithium into the exchange, the price trends up.
You can see this for yourself following dilithium events.
Let's assume that they do raise the cap and refned dilithium floods the market.
Let's assume the price reaches 400. A point it has been at in the past.
Now, your 8k dilithium a day gets you 20 zen a day.
Saving up for that 1000 zen item will take you 50 days, minimum.
You're quite right.
It's about figuring out what makes people smile.
Access to zen items in a timely manner is also part of that.
I see this one brought up frequently. While it is technically true, I can easily earn 8k+ on each of my three characters a day if I try, you have to devote some time into doing so. For more casual players or those who don't have a couple of hours per character per day to spend on it, it's not so easy.
So while it may be technically true, for the more casual players, it's not very practical.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
I may not be a casual player but even your description of a Casual player is off. Someone spending and hour or 2 a day fits my description of a casual player. and if they do it right they can make the cap in those 2 hours. I would love to here your description of a casual player.
and thw whole exchange issue. In the end is TRIBBLE because even to you guys it has jumped up to 400:1 at one point and that is with the current cap. so your best arguement against the cap raise is weak from the start.
I don't know about anyone else, but if I only have an hour or two to play, I don't want to spend all of my time "making my cap", I'd rather be doing something I enjoy. If that enjoyment pays off with Dil, great,... but logging in for two hours a day to focus on making the 8k cap, seems more like work and less like play to me.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
This is a very good point. They time gated the reputation system which gives us (current) endgame gear, they're time gating the upgrade system which will give us the new endgame gear, they time gated Fleet progression which give access to (current) endgame gear, there's no reason to assume they did not time gate our ability to purchase said (current) endgame gear.
say you are casual and have finished all the story, what's left. Fleet and reps, and now crafting. and say that day they wanted to helo the fleet. they could do it by cap. But still how short does it have to be to be casual to you?
I'm quite confident that +1-2k cap increase, for instance, will have near zero influence on the game economy. The way vendor trash EC costs nerf did absolutely nothing to counter the EC inflation - because the problem was approached from the completely wrong direction.
There is a difference between someone hanging out at a bar for 1-2 hours a day having 1-2 drinks, and someone hanging out at a bar 1-2 hours a day having 8-10 drinks. One is a casual drinker, the other is an alcoholic.
You said "if they do it right", and that right there means they are not casual players. If they have to "do it right", then they're doing something specific, not playing casually.
The casual player will be wandering around doing what looks like fun - maybe an eSTF or two, perhaps a mission, maybe a Battlezone, maybe just fly around DOffing. There may be days when they hit 8k, but they're not going to make an average of 8k per day.
Prior to S7, the average amount of dilithium earned by an active level 50 player was only 3k per session.
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate. This is basic high school economics, Econ 101.
yet we've seen it rise and fall without the cap being changed. Your agruement is a failure from the start.
The above quote is from page 6, but I don't think it has been directly addressed.
Yes, the exchange rate to convert dilithium to Zen has increased over time. When I 1st started playing STO and took notice of the exchange rate it was 127:1. Compared to the present day it has increased by roughly 46%. You are correct that the cap limit has not changed, so why the increase in the exchange rate?
There have been many posts during the course of the year that a lot of large fleets have completed all starbase projects or are almost completed. Since these projects can require millions of refine dilithium they were huge dilithium sinks. Now that apparent many fleets have completed or have nearly completed all available starbase projects, there is less of a need to dilithium to be consumed in the economy. Yes, there are still fleets out there that have not reached Tier 5 yet. But the ones that have completed all the starbase projects have no more need for dilithium... at least to the best of my knowledge since I am not in a fleet.
However, dilithium is still entering the economy because people are still grinding for dilithium. Even "causal players" who generally do not care about grinding and simply just want to have fun are introducing more dilithium into the economy every day. Every time someone successfully completes a Doff missions more dilithium is added to the economy. "Casual players" who play STFs for fun are going to be rewarded with dilithium. This is inflation that is similar to EC inflation, but the daily refinement cap is at least a very effective control mechanism per toon. Per account is a different story.
People who are looking to purchase dilithium with Zen knows there is a lot of excess dilithium in the economy right now and it keeps piling up because a lot of the dilithium sinks have disappeared since many fleets have maxed out their starbases. Therefore, those people selling Zen can now demand more dilithium for each Zen they sell. This goes back to supply and demand.
Once there are new massive dilithium sinks (like Tier 6 starbase projects), then the exchange rate will being to go down because potentially the current surplus of refined dilithium will be diverted to those new starbase projects. I would imagine that a Tier 6 Fleet Starship will require a Tier 6 Shipyard in order for fleet members to purchase said new Tier 6 Fleet Starship.
The exchange rate will go back down, you just need to be patient...
*blinks*
the point that was made is that there are multiple ways that the dilithium price varies under the current cap.
if you have your way, it will still vary but at a much higher median point.
as you are a casual gamer surely you don't get that much dilithium to refine anyhow, personally I am a fairly heavy player or so I have been told but hardly ever exceed in rewards the 8k a day limit per character (only have 3).
having said that I have no problem meeting all of my dilithium needs I do all my reps, get what stuff I need, am one of the top donators in my fleet and still have enough left to convert to zen to top up my stipend so I can buy stuff I want from the c-store, just in this year alone I have saved enough to buy the dyson mega pack 10,000zen and have enough to buy the DR pack when it hopefully hits the store 16,000zen plus a few other bit and pieses I wanted.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The fact that other factors affect the value of dilithium does not mean the cap has no effect on dilithium.
To restate:
The dilithium refining cap is not that the only thing that determines the price of dilithium.
A change in the dilithium refining cap would be a dilithium supply shock.
The introduction of dilithium sinks increase demand of dilithium.
Newly released items on the C-Store increase the demand of Zen.
New lockboxes also increase the demand of Zen.
All the above affect the Dilithium to Zen exchange rate.
What part of the above do you not understand? Do you need me to explain supply and demand? I don't really feel like explaining high school econ here.
You're the only one who seems to disagree with basic economic theory. What are you, a frosh in high school or something?
But it is your biggest arguement against a cap. if ther are other factors then why are you against a dil cap raise?
because the relevant factor is the median point.
what kind of ballpark do those other factors move the price round.
raising the cap moves the entire ballpark and makes zen more expensive generally.
it will still rise and fall but around a higher median.
First of all, if A+B+C=D, the fact the B and C also affect D does not mean A has no effect on D. Clear?
Second, if the cap goes up, (some) people will have more dilithium, which means people will be willing to pay more dilithium for Zen.
(This is because value is relative. If you think 150 dil for 1 zen is reasonable when you have 500k Dil, when you have 5,000k dil you'd think 250 dil for Zen is cheap. I had over 100 million EC, and I spent about 30 million EC equipping my shuttle just for that shuttle event. If I only had 50 million EC, there's no way I'd be willing to spend more than half my savings for it. Some people think $25 is a reasonable price for dinner, some people think it's ridiculously expensive.)
So the value of dilithium has depreciated against Zen.
Assuming you finally accept this simple bit of economics, what consequences will that have?
Full disclosure - I never buy Zen with Dilithium. I work in finance, I have minimal expenses and lots of disposable income. I spent like $300 on STO over the last two months, including buying the DR Ops pack.
As someone who spends Zen, depreciation of Dilithium is in my favor. My Zen and stipend would now buy more dilithium. This is to my personal benefit.
So getting back to your question - why am I against it?
I'm against it because it hurts the ability of the majority, the casual players who dont earn an average of 8k Dil every day, from being able to acquire Zen.
Someone who earns an average of 3k Dil every day is already short 5k Dil per day compared to someone who hits the cap at 8k every day. Raise the cap, and the former's spending power decreases even more due to the latter causing inflation.
Pricing the money store items further out of reach hurts the attractiveness of the game. Since I've got an LTS, I'd like STO to stay alive for as long as possible. So, no thanks.
I'd like to conclude by nothing that in the dev blog I'd already linked, they state quite clearly they keep an eye on how we (the majority) earn dilithium, and balance prices against that. They've already tweaked dilithium costs, the refined dilithium income/expenses is clearly where they want it.
You seem to have no clue what casual players are. You have not given 1 solid argument for cap increase. You recycle the same points that have been taken care of. You seem to have no clue how the in game economy works. You are deflecting onto the opposition to prove their stance when you have yet to validate yours beyond personal greed.
Cryptic makes a product and you decide how much you are willing to pay for the product: a value between full price and zero dollars depending on your own sweat equity; to nothing at all if you are not interested in the product.
That is the extent of your relationship.
I see no difference, it's going to rise or fall anyway
do you have any proof that the casual player doesn't reach the 8k mark? Has there been a survey anywhere?
Actually I have you just refuse to see it. The amount of content that require Dilithium has and will increase. When DR hits we will have Rep, Fleet, Crafting, and the ship and weapons upgrades that are coming. ALL require Dilithium at some point.
My fleet has 2 Lifers who have been here since beta who have tons of unrefined dil that even with their status as lifers and our fleet mines still can't refine it all. I frankly they are tired of those of you who have only been lifers a year while they had 4 years under their belt
THe closest thing to a logic point you have is the exchange point and that is really weak since that is in flux all the time and even you guys admit more then the amount of dil in the exchange is only one factor of many for the price.
Face it, in the end you have no real arguement against it.
it has happened before in other countries, this is where you see bank notes with more zeros the ive had birthdays and they are worth about 50p.
this was caused by countries printing much more money then the economy could stand and it just ended up devaluing that currency.
in sto our main in game currency is refined dilithium, sto has to ensure that only a certain amount of dilithium is in circulation at any one time.
we play certain missions or do certain events and are rewarded with ore that has no value until its refined.
there is an 8000 dil daily refine cap per character to ensure only a certain amount enters the game.
at the same time there are certain things in place that take dilithium back out of the game, fleet holdings, ships, doffs, weapons ect.
zen to dil exchange is like the games version of the dollar to pound exchange when the value of dil rises you get more zen for your dil when the value of dil falls you get less.
there have been a lot of things recently that have made the value of dil fall, there have been a lot of dil weekend events and other big dil payouts but dil has not been going out of the game as much as it used to as many fleets don't need dil at the moment and many players have all the weapons they need.
DR will address this slightly as there are some things that will take dil out of the game, hopefully we will see the value of dil rise somewhat and maybe given time get back to the 100>1zen it used to be.
having said that there will still not enough dil going out of the game to make as much difference as all the fleets that were taking it.
if the refine cap was raised by even 2000dil per character a day this would have a similar effect to the value of dil as what happened to those countries that printed too much money.
if you want to take a look at the worlds most worthless currencies take a look at this -
http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/articles/worthless-money
don't let dilithium be among them.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
But i just recieved hate and reject of player who are just freeloader and have tim e to farm 15 toons for the dilithim, this kind of player is the reason of why we have to pay more and more in this game, because people who invest in the game, in fact pay for this kind of people who do everything for have every stuff in the store for free.
So don't blame cryptic but blame player who fight for keep this game in this state and make cryptic have to find more and more way to make player to pay even if that make the game lose all is fun.
Then you're being obtuse.
How much do you want to pay for a pint of milk?
Would you prefer to pay between 1.00 and 1.50? Or would you prefer to pay between 2.00 and 2.50?
Because, when you say you see no difference, this is the difference you're not seeing.
You still think Rep Projects cost DIL. That show's your ignorant. Can you actually give a valid argument or just keep reposting the same "my fleet ahs 2 lifers.." line? I have countered and /or remedied all your "arguments". You have no argument for it, multiple people have give arguments against it.
Let me guess, your response will be:
I hope you don't lose your copy/paste clipboard
We don't have the current data, only one two years old, when situation concerning dilithium expanses was entirely different - but let's not say that we don't have a clue, let's instead base our argument on the vague and far-fetched assumption that it's somehow still valid. A powerful logic for sure.