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can we raise the Dilithium Cap for DR?

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  • jarodroto123jarodroto123 Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    and you need to evaluate how the game has evolved. 8k cap is now too small. again be a free to play player can get to the cap in two hours or less. Several of my fleet mates have TONS of unrefined ore they can't refined thanks to the current limit. Now we are not asking for no cap just a slightly higher one most agree to 15k.

    again, the problem with that is almost proportional increase in dil exhange prices.....not worth it
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    again, the problem with that is almost proportional increase in dil exhange prices.....not worth it


    where's your proof? as it is it already has spiked up from 115 to 185 at minimum and what's with no cap increase. Again in this age of the game few are willing to part with dil for any fleet project because of other needs they have. heck with a dil mine discount an embassay upgrade was nearly 1 MILLION dil. and our active fleet members are about 6. now consider the 8k cap and that dil requirement.
  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    and you need to evaluate how the game has evolved. 8k cap is now too small. again be a free to play player can get to the cap in two hours or less. Several of my fleet mates have TONS of unrefined ore they can't refined thanks to the current limit. Now we are not asking for no cap just a slightly higher one most agree to 15k.

    87.5% increase is "slightly higher"? You need to evaluate your priorities. You are still not even showing the least bit of ability to learn from anything in response to your want.
    where's your proof? as it is it already has spiked up from 115 to 185 at minimum and what's with no cap increase. Again in this age of the game few are willing to part with dil for any fleet project because of other needs they have. heck with a dil mine discount an embassay upgrade was nearly 1 MILLION dil. and our active fleet members are about 6. now consider the 8k cap and that dil requirement.

    185:1 is still low. As I said previously, you weren't around for the 400+:1 days. Fleets needed DIL back then also, it's not Cryptic's fault your fleet has only 6 active members. FYI: there's multiple chat channels where you can ask for fleet invites to buy from T5 fleets. Seeing how you can't see the difference between needs & wants seems to be your major issue still. Stop recycling the same poor arguments that have been debunked many times. You're seeming more like a troll now.
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thegcbacon wrote: »
    87.5% increase is "slightly higher"? You need to evaluate your priorities. You are still not even showing the least bit of ability to learn from anything in response to your want.



    185:1 is still low. As I said previously, you weren't around for the 400+:1 days. Fleets needed DIL back then also, it's not Cryptic's fault your fleet has only 6 active members. FYI: there's multiple chat channels where you can ask for fleet invites to buy from T5 fleets. Seeing how you can't see the difference between needs & wants seems to be your major issue still. Stop recycling the same poor arguments that have been debunked many times. You're seeming more like a troll now.

    many because we don't want robbers, we have seen that. but Cryptic should have consdered small fleets when they did the fleet bases. 1 among their many mistakes. And it doesn't matter if it was 400 at one point but increases are insane. Zen only has worth because Cryptic says so. It isn't actual gold. The heads of my fleet are lifers who have been here since beta and they are for an increase of the cap. What many players especially F2P are seeing more and more things costing dil and we can only refine 8k at dqay or 8.5k if a fleet mine. This is a problem.
  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    many because we don't want robbers, we have seen that.

    You can lock out ppl from Fleet bank/stores..SOLVED!

    but Cryptic should have consdered small fleets when they did the fleet bases. 1 among their many mistakes.

    They did. You can ask top Tier fleets for a map invite to use their stores...SOLVED!
    And it doesn't matter if it was 400 at one point but increases are insane.

    It matters since your argument includes a past conversion rate...FIXED!
    Zen only has worth because Cryptic says so. It isn't actual gold.

    Ofc, Cryptic are the game's operators...SOLVED!

    The heads of my fleet are lifers who have been here since beta and they are for an increase of the cap.

    Less than 6 ppl, no matter their subscription, doesn't account for much. I can find a lot of lifers that don't care for an increase...FIXED!
    What many players especially F2P are seeing more and more things costing dil and we can only refine 8k at dqay or 8.5k if a fleet mine. This is a problem.

    This is only a problem for greedy players that want everything fast and don't care how it ruins the game for others...SOLVED!

    I'm still waiting for a valid argument from you, but I don't think you're capable of it.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    many because we don't want robbers, we have seen that. but Cryptic should have consdered small fleets when they did the fleet bases. 1 among their many mistakes. And it doesn't matter if it was 400 at one point but increases are insane. Zen only has worth because Cryptic says so. It isn't actual gold. The heads of my fleet are lifers who have been here since beta and they are for an increase of the cap. What many players especially F2P are seeing more and more things costing dil and we can only refine 8k at dqay or 8.5k if a fleet mine. This is a problem.

    well, my fleet has no holding above t3.

    we probably have no more than six or seven active members nowadays.

    And a dil cap increase is still not in our interests.

    access to the zen market is simply more important.
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    where's your proof? as it is it already has spiked up from 115 to 185 at minimum and what's with no cap increase. Again in this age of the game few are willing to part with dil for any fleet project because of other needs they have. heck with a dil mine discount an embassay upgrade was nearly 1 MILLION dil. and our active fleet members are about 6. now consider the 8k cap and that dil requirement.

    In those conditions it will take 21 days. That's not all that bad, believe me it could be much worse.

    If you have a dilithium mine, you'll get 500 extra a day, suddenly you are down to 20 days, that could be down at 19 days if at least four of those members have been subscribers long enough to get the 800 day contact.

    Even if you are stuck at 8000 or 8500, getting a seventh active contributor involved and you'll knock three days off that million mark. It doesn't take much. These totals sound horrible at first, but think of a reputation faction being done for the first time, that's about four weeks minimum. You aren't in as bad a position as you think you are.
  • fallenhawkfallenhawk Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I keep reading that people fear that the price of Zen would go up if cap goes up.That would be true but what would go down would be time that takes to get Rep gear and fleet gear and that would I think help more then anything even if you have to save up more dil for that new shiny ship or whatever in the C-store.

    That's why I'm for a rise in the Dil cap to 16k.
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  • kavasekavase Member Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    For anyone who took basic economics (and paid attention) or even have an understanding of supply/demand probably understands why a cap increase is all but worthless.

    Need more refined? Good, take your time with it and refine 8k a day until you get want you want(not need). Don't want to take your time with it, you want it sooner then that? That's fine, there is a nice option for you to be able to purchase Zen using your credit card or pay pal and other options and from there that Zen can be exchanged for some nice instant refined dilithium.

    It's a free to play game. Many, many other free to play games have options where you can buy to accelerate your characters progress whether it would be leveling or obtaining gear.
    Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
  • rosetyler51rosetyler51 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I should really be asleep right but TRIBBLE it!

    I can (won't) find the dev post where he said the fact of the matter is most players don't hit the dil cap as it stands now so raising the dil cap would be a bad thing for most players (ie the casuals that the people that want to carry out this bad idea are trying to hide behind).

    There was more I think I should add to this but back to what I said first. I should really be asleep



    *gets back to playing fallout:NV*
  • decroniadecronia Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The exchange already has gone up. I couple years ago it was 115 dil for 1 zen. Now it's 185 dil for 1 zen. and that's no change to cap. What has changed is the amount of things that NEED dil. Fleet projects, Fleet gear, rep gear. all need dil, and some INSANE amount of dil. And wallet warrior is someone would can regularly and easily churn out cash for zen. good for them that they do. they got a job that allows that. not every body does. I had about 5 toons grind dil to about 20k with two that got the CE event completed and in the end that gave me about 1300 zen and I'm aiming for the KDF version of the Oddy which is 5000 zen. Oh then add to the fact we need zen to upgrade our ships when DR comes out so that's either wallet or MORE DIL GRINDING. raising the cap will not hurt the game at all.

    That is how freemium games work, which is what this game is it can be a lot worse in games that have a true free to play model as opposed to the hybrid model here. Those that are patient can get all they want for no actual cost to themselves other than their time and those that aren't cough up the cash and pay for it.

    I started playing this game when it went "f2p" and it was a lot more back then dil to c-point (now zen) and due to my being a little impatient I broke open my wallet and paid for the extra c-points I needed for a ship. Back then we would have been over joyed to see the rate drop to ~180.

    However since then I have not spent a penny (sterling) on anything I have that cost zen and they include:
    - DOFF roster increases, both the 25 and 100 slot ones
    - Vesta line
    - Scimitar bundle (only because I wanted a ship with a hangar on my Remans and that was the only one)
    - Bank slot increases
    - Inventory increases
    - The keys I bought when they first brought out lock boxes (only because I had three gold cardy boxes)
    - Chracter slot increase
    - Ship slot increases
    - Fleet ship modules

    All of which are bonuses and not needed for game play either enjoyment or utility, I just happened to want them and so got them. I could and have played the game for a long time without a z-store ship, the one I mentioned earlier I didn't play for long as I didn't like it so went back to the ship I got for free at level 40.

    Even with them I have been able to donate dil to fleet projects, buy the "premium" rep items that require marks and dil, bought rep items from the stores, bought items from the fleet stores and even in the early days the upgrinder of quality for DOFFs. I could go on.

    To me the game is at a happy medium, at best, where there are options to get things for "free" other than time or to pay for it if you are impatient and must have it now.
  • fallenhawkfallenhawk Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I think what most that want the rise in cap is NOT to get Zen but to get stuff that cost dil in-game like Rep gear and fleet gear faster. That my reason for a higher cap because I can get 8k+ on one char in 2-4 hours with not mush trying but most items in Rep system and fleet store cost 20K+ that 3 days max to get one item.
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  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The exchange already has gone up. I couple years ago it was 115 dil for 1 zen. Now it's 185 dil for 1 zen. and that's no change to cap. What has changed is the amount of things that NEED dil. Fleet projects, Fleet gear, rep gear. all need dil, and some INSANE amount of dil

    You have that completely backwards. A couple of years ago it was steady at 350:1 Dil to Zen for a very long time. I should know, I sold a lot of Zen at that price. Now it's 185:1 Dil to Zen because Dilithium is worth more due to those very changes you mentioned.

    Dilithium did not magically violate basic economic theory.
    dude. two hours, 2 hours I hit the cap on one toon and that is even with some delays in moving. Again the increase in cap will not hurt but help the game.

    Grinding 8k ore in two hours every day is a casual gamer?
    fallenhawk wrote: »
    I think what most that want the rise in cap is NOT to get Zen but to get stuff that cost dil in-game like Rep gear and fleet gear faster. That my reason for a higher cap because I can get 8k+ on one char in 2-4 hours with not mush trying but most items in Rep system and fleet store cost 20K+ that 3 days max to get one item.

    It takes ~40 days to hit Tier 5 in a Reputation, at 8k per day that's 320k.

    Looking at 8472 Rep, ground set costs 9k each, the space set costs 32.5k each, and the space weapon set costs 15k each.

    3 (9,000) + 3 (32,500) + 4 (15,000) = 27,000 + 97,500 + 60,000 = 184,500

    In the time it takes you to hit T5 in a reputation system, if you're hitting the 8k cap you'll have 320k, and it only costs 184,500 for every equipment project in a reputation system, leaving you with 135,500 Dil for Fleet gear.

    Advanced Fleet Weapons are 9,100 each.
    Fleet Consoles are 10,000 each.

    You can easily buy 14 Fleet weapons or consoles with the remaining Dilithium. In 40 days you should fully kit a ship in the best gear available, aside from Lockbox/Lobi items, which only serve to reduce the Dilithium cost. It takes you 40 days to hit T5 in the reputation systems to unlock the gear in the first place.

    Keeping the game away from "pay to win" by keeping Zen accessible is far more important than impatience.
  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    It takes ~40 days to hit Tier 5 in a Reputation, at 8k per day that's 320k.

    Keeping the game away from "pay to win" by keeping Zen accessible is far more important than impatience.

    You didn't add in the DIL you get from T5 completion, 32k for most Reps, or the 340 DIL/20h project(13 600 over 40 days).
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I can (won't) find the dev post where he said the fact of the matter is most players don't hit the dil cap as it stands now so raising the dil cap would be a bad thing for most players (ie the casuals that the people that want to carry out this bad idea are trying to hide behind).

    My Google-Fu is strong!

    Season 7, Dev Blog #17:
    Active level 50 players are refining far less Dilithium than we expect them to.
    Prior to Season 7, the average amount of Dilithium refined by an active level 50 player was 3100 per session or 13,250 per week. That is far less than the cap of 8000 per day when you consider that most level 50 players play multiple days per week and slightly more than the average hours per session.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    fallenhawk wrote: »
    I think what most that want the rise in cap is NOT to get Zen but to get stuff that cost dil in-game like Rep gear and fleet gear faster. That my reason for a higher cap because I can get 8k+ on one char in 2-4 hours with not mush trying but most items in Rep system and fleet store cost 20K+ that 3 days max to get one item.

    fair enough.

    im implacably opposed because i think access to the zen market is more important.

    but we all have our own priorities...
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    notice how most of the opposition are career officers.

    I'm going to post this out again. the two head of my fleet are Lifers, REAL lifers who have been here since beta. They have so much unrefine ore that they might never ever get them all refined. Wether you are using it for gear or zen. the current cap is too small. Someone eariler suggested a trail time of an increase cap. I'll be for this and we'll see if the exchange fear happens for that seems to be the only fear you guys have.
  • fallenhawkfallenhawk Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    notice how most of the opposition are career officers.

    I'm going to post this out again. the two head of my fleet are Lifers, REAL lifers who have been here since beta. They have so much unrefine ore that they might never ever get them all refined. Wether you are using it for gear or zen. the current cap is too small. Someone eariler suggested a trail time of an increase cap. I'll be for this and we'll see if the exchange fear happens for that seems to be the only fear you guys have.
    I think I did post about the time trial idea to see how it plays out . Now I don't know with the last few post to point out it may not be need (cap rise). It that at some point it going get boring when you do the same thing over and over again. Or like me having an attentions spend of glint and can't keep playing the same game for to long (my problem mostly) :P. Reason why I never made it though one event to get that big "free" prize at the end of the grind.
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  • adorenkoadorenko Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    For what its worth, IMO I don't need it raised. I have 7 toons to gather Dil and I never make to 8 k on all of them each day anyway. Some days I don't get 8k on one of them, so I don't need it raised. Plus from what I've heard it would really TRIBBLE up the economics of the game, I think they're bad enough as it is, I think raising the cap might make it worse.
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  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    notice how most of the opposition are career officers.

    I'm going to post this out again. the two head of my fleet are Lifers, REAL lifers who have been here since beta. They have so much unrefine ore that they might never ever get them all refined. Wether you are using it for gear or zen. the current cap is too small. Someone eariler suggested a trail time of an increase cap. I'll be for this and we'll see if the exchange fear happens for that seems to be the only fear you guys have.

    Tinfoil hat is strong w/you. You still have not brought a valid point to your view. You keep recycling the same words that have been taken apart. You know the cap is also there so ppl know when it's time to log off and get a life? I know the real world scares some folks, but what will you do when STO shuts down?

    A time trial is a terrible idea, can you even comprehend the outrage when it is over and the cap goes back to 8k? You never see the larger impact of anything you post, that's your downfall.
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thegcbacon wrote: »
    Tinfoil hat is strong w/you. You still have not brought a valid point to your view. You keep recycling the same words that have been taken apart. You know the cap is also there so ppl know when it's time to log off and get a life? I know the real world scares some folks, but what will you do when STO shuts down?

    A time trial is a terrible idea, can you even comprehend the outrage when it is over and the cap goes back to 8k? You never see the larger impact of anything you post, that's your downfall.

    what tin foild hart. count how many of the opposing side is carreer officers which means lifers.

    and I have put out valid arguements. We have multiple different things requiring dil now. heck even with a discount a fleet upgrade can cost nearly a million dil. Not all fleets can and should be big and these thigns hurt badly, espically with current cap. the cap was setup when there was less things that needed dil. since the cap we have the fleet bases, the rep grinds, the crafting, and now the ship upgerades coming. It is time to up the cap.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    what tin foild hart. count how many of the opposing side is carreer officers which means lifers.

    and I have put out valid arguements. We have multiple different things requiring dil now. heck even with a discount a fleet upgrade can cost nearly a million dil. Not all fleets can and should be big and these thigns hurt badly, espically with current cap. the cap was setup when there was less things that needed dil. since the cap we have the fleet bases, the rep grinds, the crafting, and now the ship upgerades coming. It is time to up the cap.

    lets be kind.

    in my view you have, blurrily, identified an actual problem, but your solution wont work.

    small fleets do, indeed, have a problem filling the higher tier dilithium requirements.

    this is true.

    but flooding the zen market with dilithium is not the solution.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Oh, I get it now.

    We started off as a poorly thought out "help casual players" proposition which actually hurts actual casual Free players, and now it's turned into a Small Fleet Whine disguised as a "help casual players" thing.
  • fallenhawkfallenhawk Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    thegcbacon wrote: »
    A time trial is a terrible idea, can you even comprehend the outrage when it is over and the cap goes back to 8k? You never see the larger impact of anything you post, that's your downfall.

    On tribble it won't hurt just to see after all that what that server for. I just don't think we shouldn't try something just out fear long as it can be reverse it be fine right?
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  • mindwipecjgmindwipecjg Member Posts: 0
    edited September 2014
    the real issue is this and i said it in my last two posts on here..

    the game HAS changed since the initial dilithium cap was introduced and that cap was put in place so people didnt farm for the dil content too quickly that was in game at that time period.

    that has now since evolved and so should the level cap on Dilithium to equally reflect that!


    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    They've reduced the cost of Reputation equipment, and Fleet gear isn't that expensive either. After I posted the breakdown in Dilithium costs for gear, no one tried to advance that argument again.

    There has yet to be an argument advanced for increasing the disparity between casual players and grinders in terms of refined dilithium income.

    If there are "legit reasons", nobody's actually stated them.
  • thegcbaconthegcbacon Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
  • corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Think of it like this, using the US example, The Fed controls the amount of money in the economy by increasing or decreasing the interest rate they charge banks and that banks charge each other.

    This is analogous to Cryptic setting the Dil cap at 8k, the Dil cap is the "interest rate".

    Now, in the US, people then trade various properties on the various stock markets. The markets go up and down based on supply and demand along with perceived value.

    This is the player driven Dil and EC exchanges.

    The ONLY way a Dil cap increase would work, would be if Cryptic "fixed" the Dil/Zen exchange rate at something less than 250, say somewhere between 125 and 250. If the exchange rate was "fixed", then the amount of Dil that could be refined, wouldn't matter as much, because the exchange rate wouldn't change.

    However, doing that, would remove one of the "player driven/controlled" aspects of the game. As much as most people like to deny it, all of us have a little Ferengi in us. Some more than others. Some people LIKE playing the EC and Dil exchange to get the max profit possible. Hard fixing the exchange rate would likely cause more outrage than the T6 fiasco has.

    Just because you do not understand or understand rudimentarily economics and economic models, doesn't mean that they do not exist or that your ideas are better than the people that came before you.

    If you want an example of what would happen if the Dil cap were arbitrarily raised, look to history, what has historically happened when an almost unlimited supply of currency has suddenly flooded the market?

    Germany, post WWII, currency lost almost all value and simple loaves of bread costs hundreds or thousands of dollars.

    Japan, post WWII, same thing, rampant massive inflation, currency lost almost all value.

    If you arbitrarily raise the Dil cap, Dil will lose much of perceived value and you will have to exchange more of it, to acquire the same quantity of Zen,... bad idea.

    I personally, would like to refine more, to be able to get my Fleet and Rep gear more quickly, I have plenty of unrefined to outfit a whole fleet of ships if I could refine it all at once. However, being able to buy Fleet and/or Rep gear is only one small aspect of the Dil as currency, issue.

    A stable, if somewhat fluctuating (in cycles with demand) Zen exchange rate is far more important than fulfilling your, mine or anyone elses desire to outfit as quick as possible.
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  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Point of order, ladies and gentlemen.

    You do not stop others' complaining and arguing with counter-complaints and counter-arguments. You do not stop immature behavior by name-calling. Please edit your posts if you believe you may have violated forum rules.

    If a post violates the forum rules, please report it. And please follow the old maxim your mother probably taught you: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
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  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2014

    lets look at this form a game content and general point of view formthe idea of a game and not a stockmarket.

    I sort of sympathise, but there's an issue with what you suggest.

    As an FTP game, STO (rightly) prides itself on the fact that everything is available for free.

    You might have to grind out dilithium to trade for zen, but you can do it without paying a red cent.

    This means that we can't separate the exchange issues from general game content, because the former underpins the latter.

    Unless the game philosophy, vis a vis FTP, is radically changed we have to look at both game content and the exchange in tandem.
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