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Is the Federation still bound by the 'Treaty of Algeron'?
wdwormack214
Member Posts: 131 Arc User
Sinnce the Romulan Homeworlds no longer exist, and the Romulan Government, and prople are serioudly divided. Is the Federation still abiding by the treaty agreement that forbids them from equipping Federation vessels with 'Cloaking Tech'?
Since the situation has 'changed' considerably for the "empire', are the they in any position to forbid/restrict the use of 'cloaking tech'?
Since the situation has 'changed' considerably for the "empire', are the they in any position to forbid/restrict the use of 'cloaking tech'?
Post edited by wdwormack214 on
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If the Treaty had been bound to a single government, it would have been void when the at the latest when the government that created Shinzon was overthrown, and we know that did not happen, as they stole Picards DNA while (or shortly after) he was still in command of the Stargazer (based on the physical age of Shinzon before his ageing started to accelerate).
The republic is another matter though.
At this point the Federation seems to acknowledge that both are legal governments, as they refer to The Romulan Empire, and the Romulan Republic respectively, and refer to both entities sovereignty, and as such must feel bound to follow the treaty.
However, to our knowledge, the treaty dosen't prevent the federation to have other governments install cloaks on their ships, just that they aren't allowed to develop their own... So in theory, the Republic or the Klingons could technically supply the federation with cloaks, without the federation breaking the treaty.
It should be noted the Federation has no trouble using cloaked ships (as evidenced by both the effort they expended to obtain it in TOS and its use on the Defiant in DS9), just that most times the cloak is more trouble than it is worth in the kind of operations Starfleet normally carries out. Given that a cloak is far from perfect, that both the Romulans and Klingons are more advanced in this area of technology, and a ship travelling under it is running with shields down, most Starfleet commanders would consider the device too risky when their missions require them to show themselves in almost all cases (assistance to vessels or colonies in need, deterrence of hostile forces, exploration of regions of space that are natural hazards, ect).
So, except when a ship's mission specifically calls for a need for stealth, Starfleet would rather have a shield between their ships and danger than an imperfect stealth system they would only rarely use.
The Federation, therefore, is not bound by the Treaty any longer, but does tend to avoid placing cloaking systems on the vast majority of its ships for the reasons above.
It was replaced with an Executive Order from the President of the Federation saying we won't use or deploy Cloaking tech. There are obvious exceptions to this order. And the new Intel ships are those.
The Treaty only covered the Alpha/Beta Quadrant, the Federation can have all the Cloaking Devices they want in the Delta Quadrant even if the Treaty is still in place.
If Cryptic wanted to be realistic your Cloaking device would not be useable in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. But that technology doesn't exist in the game engine so it's up to the players of these ships to abide by the Federations beliefs (As in Roleplay a Starfleet Admiral).
I really want them to clear this whole thing up with an in game speech or something. Have a Diplomatic meeting between all the Factions with the player their and outline what the rules are these days.
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When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I care about continuity, not canon. And if it fits into STO continuity without a major inconsistency, it's fine with me.
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However, with the way things are going with the Undine and the Iconians, the whole 'Denying ourselves cloaking tech is stupid' mentality has come to the forefront again, and for good reason. Between Sela's disappearance the Tal Shiar's beheading, and the fact that NO ONE seems to be on their side, the Romulan Empire is pretty much null as a super-power anymore. With relationships with the Klingons (mostly) patched up, and with the Romulan Republic as a firm ally, and the Neutral Zone non-existant in any case, sticking to the treaty, especially a treaty with a nation that is either unhelpful with the current crisis at best and in league with the enemy at worst, would just be suicidally stupid when cloaking tech adds a major tactical advantage in a time where they're gonna need all the advantages they can get.
TL;DR, it's stupid for Starfleet to deny themselves cloaks when the Romulan Empire is on the outs, and they need every advantage they can get against the Iconians and other threats.
If the Romulan Empire still exists, at this point, the game makes it's existence really muted in feel. Almost like the Tal Shiar are treated as interloping pirates anymore, than a true threat. At least, compared to what it once was. Shadows feel like they have more dire import to them. Even the Hirogen, in way. Maybe the future story-lines (official) will change this perception, but until then, feel like the old Romulan Empire is defunct. Course I could be wrong. The lack of 2410 based evidence, leads me to this current iota.
As for the Treaty, I hope the devs put something official in, to explain why the Intel ships have cloaks now. Beyond this, the real objection might come from the Klingons. In either case, the new ships having cloaks, didn't get them from thin air. Given the Defiant and Gal-X classes can use them, in 2409 (via console,) it may be the Treaty is seen as defunct, regardless of the current political climate. Using them on the new ships therefore, might be simply seen by Starfleet, as logical, considering they are entering a really lawless expanse. Ship's bigger than their own. WEIRD Delta Quad nuttiness, all around them. Might bee too much of a case of: we better use all we can get, even if there is somehow a Treaty still. (And it feels like there isn't one, anymore.
I'm probably missing stuff here, but there's my 20-40-60 hindsight to inject napalm onto the kerosine blaze, this thread consists of.
From my point of view, the Feds don't need it. It's better to find ways to seek through cloak, then to copy it.
To that end, the RSE seems to have been left out of all three summits we've seen in-game. The Khitomer summit involved the status of a good chunk of their population and territory, and they had to crash it uninvited just to have their say. The DS9 summit involved fleet activity in their space, but they were left out while other non-participants were at least brought in for a formal heads-up that Task Force Omega would be blowing up Borg in their space (Romulan Republic participation in this one is a bit weird since it's a pre-LoR mission, but it is still in their campaign so they were there sort of). The Jenolan summit didn't involve them, but it didn't involve the Cardassians or Ferengi, either, and they both got invites.
When the world did this between China and Taiwan, most countries took all their preexisting treaties with them to whichever government they recognized. The Treaty of Algeron suddenly has a very different context when it's between allies than between belligerents, particularly when both allies profess to be dedicated to a long term alliance and not just a partnership of convenience like during the Dominion War.
There's a lot of looking the other way in the alliance. Even moreso now that it's a three way alliance and not an awkward arrangement with Romulans allied on both sides of the Klingon-Federation War. Romulans have thalaron weapons, Klingons have protomater torpedoes and have pressed a conquered people into military service, and the Federation is siphoning manpower off of everyone around them with their generous dual citizenship program for getting foreigners into Starfleet. Everybody spies on everybody and nobody can or should be trusted beyond the immediate needs of the current conflict.
So legally, the Treaty of Algeron ended a while ago.
(Also, Executive Orders need to be backed by statute or the Constitution, which meansthe thing Okeg signed doesn't actually mean anything. I'm sure it sounded important while they were trying to make nice, but it didn't actually have much of a legal effect. Sneaky!)
Since the lore of STO says yes, at the moment. Despite the pending release of new Fed ships with cloaks, the answer is yes. They haven't changed the lore through story line yet, though I expect them to when DR finally releases.
So as much as people will dislike my answer, and argue it to no end, none of which I will participate in, it's the truth. Until they make changes through stroy, the existing story takes precedence. And THAT story to date, is yes, Fed is still bound by the Treaty of Algeron.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
Perhaps you missed my post, 'cause you were posting? The in-game text explicitly states that the "narrow legal view" is that "the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed".
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If Cryptic does revamp the Romulan story arc, they should add a line about this to lay the subject to rest.
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I think they will explain it, so far they usually do to a degree.
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Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The Treaty was ment to preserve the peace between the Federation and the Star Empire. Technically... the remnants of the Star Empire broke their end of the Treaty.
Short Version: The events at Brea III opened the door to Fed Cloaks. Personal Headcanon says the Avenger was comissioned long after Brea III, and the Intel ships shortly after that.
Even Shorted version: Play Cutting the Cord.
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It's moot to talk about the Treaty of Algeron, because in the end, it doesn't matter.
if the treaty meant anything at all the devs wouldnt give federation intel ship ships cloaking devices at all. so the very fact that federation ships have such devices means the treaty doesnt mean anything. lets not forget the defiant, galaxyfail x and any other federation ships with cloaks.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
This is simply to rid ourselves of this eternal debate about the treaty of Algeron.
As far as the Treaty it self. The RSE that the treaty was written with is no more. It was taken over in a coup by the Tal'Shiar. The government that the treaty is with is no more. Even if that coup didn't happen the new RSE has openly attacked Federation ships voiding the treaty anyhow.
The RR is a totally different goverement and there is no new treaty with them as well about cloaks. So no there is no formal treaty that the Federation has signed that still in existence banning cloaks for the sake of peace.
The only thing that's there Okeg's executive order. That in a internal mater for the federation has nothing to do with the RSE, RR, KDF or some invalidated treaty. But it is the only thing that was holding Federation cloaking back and is the only unanswered question.
In my view with where Cryptic has taken the in-game story line the Romulan Republic is an entirely new entity so any treaties made with the Romulan Star Empire not longer apply. Both the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire seem to view the Romulan Republic as the new legitimate Romulan Government. The evidence of that being the latest in-game content where all three governments are clearly working together. What remains of the Romulan Star Empire is mostly Tal Shair and who would want to deal with that when you can deal with the warm and fuzzy Romulan Republic?
If you're going to quote, quote the whole thing;
There by enforcing the Treaty. I really don't understand what is so hard for people to understand. In this context "may" is might be, not is.
"There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cloaking_Device
In-game material says that, in 2409, the Starfleet started implementing cloaks. Your quote was from a time before the Tal'shiar became hyper-aggressive towards the Federation. They broke that treaty first anyway, so the whole argument is moot.
I really don't understand what is so hard for people to understand.
I did. :rolleyes:
I just wanted to know if Federation/Starfleet Starships can use cloaking devices. I did't mean to put 'tribbles in the quadritriticale'. No offense meant guys, but I kindly suggest major 'shore leave' for everyone. Go outside, meet some girls, (preferrably not 'green-skinned'), get a drink, or two, (no Mtn Dew), and for Pete's sake, GET SOME SUN WILLYA! TROTFL:o