why are there 4 threads about federation cloaks? and you say we need shore leave.... jeez you couldn't jump in on one of the others you had to start a new one...
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I believe the current status is that the Treaty is considered void because one side of the agreement (the Romulan Star Empire) became actively hostile to the other, nullifying the purpose of the Treaty, which was to prevent hostilities.
This. The treaty is void.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Where did ya'll get the notion of 'the Tal Shiar took over the RSE'?
Seriously, I really want to know where this idea came from.
the tal shiar instill a sense of fear in the romulan people, they are a secret police force and military intelligence that runs its own affairs without oversight, they try to defend the romulan empire from its enemies and those they decide to call "traitors" from within, political opponents with a different view point on the senate that does not meet the tal shiar's approval, in such a case these people have been known to disappear without a trace. they run the empire the senate is merely window dressing for the civilians and the military is a means to an end.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Where did ya'll get the notion of 'the Tal Shiar took over the RSE'?
Seriously, I really want to know where this idea came from.
As far as I know, it's not explicitly said?
In Frozen we learn that the Tal Shiar no longer serves the RSE, but the Iconians.
Then after Sela is captured by the Iconians during Cutting the Cord, in response to "What are the Romulans doing now that Sela has disappeared?", Obisek says:
"The petty arguments and plays for power Sela crushed have begun anew.
There are dozens who wish to rule the empire. It will take some time before a new leader arises.
Until then, much blood will be shed."
Perhaps they're assuming the Tal Shair are one of those fighting to take control of the fragments, or perhaps I've missed something.
In Frozen we learn that the Tal Shiar no longer serves the RSE, but the Iconians.
Then after Sela is captured by the Iconians during Cutting the Cord, in response to "What are the Romulans doing now that Sela has disappeared?", Obisek says:
"The petty arguments and plays for power Sela crushed have begun anew.
There are dozens who wish to rule the empire. It will take some time before a new leader arises.
Until then, much blood will be shed."
Perhaps they're assuming the Tal Shair are one of those fighting to take control of the fragments, or perhaps I've missed something.
it's likely the tal shiar will choose its allies carefully and eliminate opponents as "traitors" to narrow the field to their preferred candidate. but its getting off topic to the cloak issue.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
why are there 4 threads about federation cloaks? and you say we need shore leave.... jeez you couldn't jump in on one of the others you had to start a new one...
Serves me TOTALLY right for disobeying the first rule of message boards, READ BEFORE POSTING. Now if you'll just tell me where to find the Klingon PAIN STICKS, I can begin the 'corrective' discipline.:o
In Frozen we learn that the Tal Shiar no longer serves the RSE, but the Iconians.
Then after Sela is captured by the Iconians during Cutting the Cord, in response to "What are the Romulans doing now that Sela has disappeared?", Obisek says:
"The petty arguments and plays for power Sela crushed have begun anew.
There are dozens who wish to rule the empire. It will take some time before a new leader arises.
Until then, much blood will be shed."
Perhaps they're assuming the Tal Shair are one of those fighting to take control of the fragments, or perhaps I've missed something.
That's kinda my point. It's not explicitly stated. Is the Tal Shiar a power within the fragmented RSE? Of course. But it's filled with in-fighting. Heck I'm sure the only reason they can harass D'tan's Romulans is because of Iconian help.
As far as I know in the story, it's not be outright said, 'The Tal Shiar are in full control of the RSE', or anything to that effect. If someone can prove otherwise, I will listen.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
That's kinda my point. It's not explicitly stated. Is the Tal Shiar a power within the fragmented RSE? Of course. But it's filled with in-fighting. Heck I'm sure the only reason they can harass D'tan's Romulans is because of Iconian help.
As far as I know in the story, it's not be outright said, 'The Tal Shiar are in full control of the RSE', or anything to that effect. If someone can prove otherwise, I will listen.
thats what hakeev was after, to regain the lost power the tal shiar once had over all its people and instead became indoctrinated by the reap... i mean the iconians :P. hakeev was looking for a way to destroy the enemies of the tal shiar superstate and found the iconians and elachi to help him towards his aims with the blessing of sela, when she yanked that power off hakeev and obisek went after hakeev and killed him the tal-shiar became a toothless monster and when sela disappeared considering how much influence sela had in her empire, things fell apart completely. when hakeev had power he targeted the RR simply because it instills a sense of terror the tal shiar used to provide on a regular basis before romulus was destroyed, it is something he was trying to do again but met with limited success simply because the RR didnt fear the tal shiar superstate any longer.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
thats what hakeev was after, to regain the lost power the tal shiar once had over all its people and instead became indoctrinated by the reap... i mean the iconians :P. hakeev was looking for a way to destroy the enemies of the tal shiar superstate and found the iconians and elachi to help him towards his aims with the blessing of sela, when she yanked that power off hakeev and obisek went after hakeev and killed him the tal-shiar became a toothless monster and when sela disappeared considering how much influence sela had in her empire, things fell apart completely. when hakeev had power he targeted the RR simply because it instills a sense of terror the tal shiar used to provide on a regular basis before romulus was destroyed, it is something he was trying to do again but met with limited success simply because the RR didnt fear the tal shiar superstate any longer.
Fair enough on all your points there, but if anything that just goes to show how much weaker the Tal Shiar has become with all their losses, even with Iconian help.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If we're not going to care about what's canon, let's start adding the Milennium Falcon, Deathstar, Space Battleship Yamato and Whitestar into lockboxes and the C-Store.
Maybe the Borg could get overthrown by a legion of Stormtroopers too.
The writers of Star Trek kept with canon until they didn't want to.
In TMP Klingons got changed to the ridged aliens with no real attempt at an explanation until Enterprise.
In TNG Romulans got a forehead ridge and that still hasn't been explained...nor the sudden appearance of the Remans.
The primary purpose of the Treaty of Algeron is not to keep the feds from developing a cloak. It's to keep peace between the Federation and Romulan empire. A peace that should have been broken along with the treaty when a Romulan BOP came across the neutral zone and fired High Yield Torp III at several earth outposts in "Balance of Terror".
At this point in time is the Federation at peace with the remnants of the RSE or at war? Seems to me they are at war which means the treaty is null and void.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
That's nice and all, but STO isn't canon. There are remnants of the RSE in the Romulan Republic too, or was anyone who didn't agree with the Tal'Shiar in the old empire considered not Romulan?
Also, the Federation has never really needed to rely heavily on cloaking.... "Boldly going" and all that, so IMO treaty or not, cloaking just isn't needed for the Federation.
I never said STO was canon.
Just that canon was never this fast and hard rule in the shows and movies.
Yes the feds never needed cloaks
and red used to be the color of security and engineering
and Klingons weren't members of the Federation
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
That's nice and all, but STO isn't canon. There are remnants of the RSE in the Romulan Republic too, or was anyone who didn't agree with the Tal'Shiar in the old empire considered not Romulan?
Also, the Federation has never really needed to rely heavily on cloaking.... "Boldly going" and all that, so IMO treaty or not, cloaking just isn't needed for the Federation.
Ya well bops were one shot by fed cruisers and Fed ships pound for pound were more powerful in the shows... not everything is show related.
After all a the Defiants armor was so effective that with just a tractor beam on a Vor'cha it would tank its attacks for 2 mins... when a bop was destroyed in 1 phaser cannon barrage..
if fed ships were as tanky in the shows that they are game then ya cloaks would never matter.. but game play has shown other wise..
There is a big difference between game balance and game lore. As far as the treaty in game is dead. There are many reasons why but pretty much the new RSE attacking the feds and being allies with the iconians pretty shreaded that treaty.
I would think the treaty is no longer applicable due to the political changes in the RSE. It's not even really the RSE anymore, except the Tal Shiar loyalists needed a name to get behind. It appears to me that most Romulans are onboard the new Romulan Republic, so you basically have a democratic-ish government, fielding their own fleets of ships, etc. and an old collection of military/intelligence people who are vainly trying to cling to what power they can.
But, as has been mentioned, except for specialized missions, your average Starfleet ship doesn't need a cloak. Their job is to show the flag, to friend and foe alike. You don't get that effect by driving around the galaxy being invisible.
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
The writers of Star Trek kept with canon until they didn't want to.
In TMP Klingons got changed to the ridged aliens with no real attempt at an explanation until Enterprise.
In TNG Romulans got a forehead ridge and that still hasn't been explained...nor the sudden appearance of the Remans.
The primary purpose of the Treaty of Algeron is not to keep the feds from developing a cloak. It's to keep peace between the Federation and Romulan empire. A peace that should have been broken along with the treaty when a Romulan BOP came across the neutral zone and fired High Yield Torp III at several earth outposts in "Balance of Terror".
At this point in time is the Federation at peace with the remnants of the RSE or at war? Seems to me they are at war which means the treaty is null and void.
umm, the treaty of algeron was not signed until 2311, after the end of the original series. (in the time between "the enterprise incident" and the year 2311 (about 50-60 years) the federation could and did legally use cloaking devices and develop cloaking tech)
thus, the balance of terror incident and the treaty of algeron have nothing to do with each other.
I would think the treaty is no longer applicable due to the political changes in the RSE. It's not even really the RSE anymore, except the Tal Shiar loyalists needed a name to get behind. It appears to me that most Romulans are onboard the new Romulan Republic, so you basically have a democratic-ish government, fielding their own fleets of ships, etc. and an old collection of military/intelligence people who are vainly trying to cling to what power they can.
But, as has been mentioned, except for specialized missions, your average Starfleet ship doesn't need a cloak. Their job is to show the flag, to friend and foe alike. You don't get that effect by driving around the galaxy being invisible.
Ya the RSE is really like The True Way for the Romulans but better equipped then there Cardasian counter parts.
umm, the treaty of algeron was not signed until 2311, after the end of the original series. (in the time between "the enterprise incident" and the year 2311 (about 50-60 years) the federation could and did legally use cloaking devices and develop cloaking tech)
thus, the balance of terror incident and the treaty of algeron have nothing to do with each other.
I agree with the gist of your post tho.
I should have looked at memory alpha before posting
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Given that the cloaking device helped the Defiant in the gamma Quadrant and that the republic and KDf are in a joint venture with the Federation its likly to assume that the reason these new ships have cloaks is a new agreement with all factions that Cloaking will help avoid causality's.
So it could be that the treaty is gone but Starfleet has made new arrangements with the 2 factions in this regard.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Is the US government bound by the Constitution? TRIBBLE no!
The consitutuion is a body of law, not a treaty.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Was being ironic, didn't think anyone would call me out on the analogy...though both are "laws" one being Administrative and the other being Legislative. I assume you dropped out as a 1L?
Was being ironic, didn't think anyone would call me out on the analogy...though both are "laws" one being Administrative and the other being Legislative. I assume you dropped out as a 1L?
We'll considering that our govern!ment can make changes to the constitution I don't think we are as bound by it as people think.
Was being ironic, didn't think anyone would call me out on the analogy...though both are "laws" one being Administrative and the other being Legislative. I assume you dropped out as a 1L?
Bachelors degree in political science, mother got sick before I was even able to think about getting further. She's fine now, but I had to take care of her.
Everywhere I look, people are screaming about how bad Cryptic is.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Would the Federation still be bound by the Treaty of Algeron?
In the STO universe: No. The Romulan Star Empire has been weakened through the destruction of their homeworld, internal conflicts and the formation of the Romulan Republic. At the same time the Federation is armed to the teeth.
There's a very good example in our recent past for this. Look at the breakdown of the Sowjet Union. NATO and the EU ensured Russia they would never expand to the Russian border. That bordering countries should remain neutral. Well as soon as Russia was weakened enough at the end of the 90s neither the US nor the European countries felt obligated to keep their part of the promise. Today even Ukraine is considered to be a member candidate for both NATO and EU.
In the Roddenberry universe: Yes. TNG tried to establish a very high moral standard and a high degree of idealsm. That they would keep what they had promised is beyond any doubt. Unless the Romulans had annulled the treaty themselves of course.
Comments
Where did ya'll get the notion of 'the Tal Shiar took over the RSE'?
Seriously, I really want to know where this idea came from.
This. The treaty is void.
From the game... did you not make a romulan toon or play the romulan episodes on another faction?
the tal shiar instill a sense of fear in the romulan people, they are a secret police force and military intelligence that runs its own affairs without oversight, they try to defend the romulan empire from its enemies and those they decide to call "traitors" from within, political opponents with a different view point on the senate that does not meet the tal shiar's approval, in such a case these people have been known to disappear without a trace. they run the empire the senate is merely window dressing for the civilians and the military is a means to an end.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
As far as I know, it's not explicitly said?
In Frozen we learn that the Tal Shiar no longer serves the RSE, but the Iconians.
Then after Sela is captured by the Iconians during Cutting the Cord, in response to "What are the Romulans doing now that Sela has disappeared?", Obisek says:
"The petty arguments and plays for power Sela crushed have begun anew.
There are dozens who wish to rule the empire. It will take some time before a new leader arises.
Until then, much blood will be shed."
Perhaps they're assuming the Tal Shair are one of those fighting to take control of the fragments, or perhaps I've missed something.
it's likely the tal shiar will choose its allies carefully and eliminate opponents as "traitors" to narrow the field to their preferred candidate. but its getting off topic to the cloak issue.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Serves me TOTALLY right for disobeying the first rule of message boards, READ BEFORE POSTING. Now if you'll just tell me where to find the Klingon PAIN STICKS, I can begin the 'corrective' discipline.:o
That's kinda my point. It's not explicitly stated. Is the Tal Shiar a power within the fragmented RSE? Of course. But it's filled with in-fighting. Heck I'm sure the only reason they can harass D'tan's Romulans is because of Iconian help.
As far as I know in the story, it's not be outright said, 'The Tal Shiar are in full control of the RSE', or anything to that effect. If someone can prove otherwise, I will listen.
thats what hakeev was after, to regain the lost power the tal shiar once had over all its people and instead became indoctrinated by the reap... i mean the iconians :P. hakeev was looking for a way to destroy the enemies of the tal shiar superstate and found the iconians and elachi to help him towards his aims with the blessing of sela, when she yanked that power off hakeev and obisek went after hakeev and killed him the tal-shiar became a toothless monster and when sela disappeared considering how much influence sela had in her empire, things fell apart completely. when hakeev had power he targeted the RR simply because it instills a sense of terror the tal shiar used to provide on a regular basis before romulus was destroyed, it is something he was trying to do again but met with limited success simply because the RR didnt fear the tal shiar superstate any longer.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Fair enough on all your points there, but if anything that just goes to show how much weaker the Tal Shiar has become with all their losses, even with Iconian help.
The writers of Star Trek kept with canon until they didn't want to.
In TMP Klingons got changed to the ridged aliens with no real attempt at an explanation until Enterprise.
In TNG Romulans got a forehead ridge and that still hasn't been explained...nor the sudden appearance of the Remans.
The primary purpose of the Treaty of Algeron is not to keep the feds from developing a cloak. It's to keep peace between the Federation and Romulan empire. A peace that should have been broken along with the treaty when a Romulan BOP came across the neutral zone and fired High Yield Torp III at several earth outposts in "Balance of Terror".
At this point in time is the Federation at peace with the remnants of the RSE or at war? Seems to me they are at war which means the treaty is null and void.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I never said STO was canon.
Just that canon was never this fast and hard rule in the shows and movies.
Yes the feds never needed cloaks
and red used to be the color of security and engineering
and Klingons weren't members of the Federation
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Ya well bops were one shot by fed cruisers and Fed ships pound for pound were more powerful in the shows... not everything is show related.
After all a the Defiants armor was so effective that with just a tractor beam on a Vor'cha it would tank its attacks for 2 mins... when a bop was destroyed in 1 phaser cannon barrage..
if fed ships were as tanky in the shows that they are game then ya cloaks would never matter.. but game play has shown other wise..
There is a big difference between game balance and game lore. As far as the treaty in game is dead. There are many reasons why but pretty much the new RSE attacking the feds and being allies with the iconians pretty shreaded that treaty.
But, as has been mentioned, except for specialized missions, your average Starfleet ship doesn't need a cloak. Their job is to show the flag, to friend and foe alike. You don't get that effect by driving around the galaxy being invisible.
umm, the treaty of algeron was not signed until 2311, after the end of the original series. (in the time between "the enterprise incident" and the year 2311 (about 50-60 years) the federation could and did legally use cloaking devices and develop cloaking tech)
thus, the balance of terror incident and the treaty of algeron have nothing to do with each other.
I agree with the gist of your post tho.
Ya the RSE is really like The True Way for the Romulans but better equipped then there Cardasian counter parts.
I should have looked at memory alpha before posting
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
So it could be that the treaty is gone but Starfleet has made new arrangements with the 2 factions in this regard.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
The consitutuion is a body of law, not a treaty.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
Was being ironic, didn't think anyone would call me out on the analogy...though both are "laws" one being Administrative and the other being Legislative. I assume you dropped out as a 1L?
We'll considering that our govern!ment can make changes to the constitution I don't think we are as bound by it as people think.
Bachelors degree in political science, mother got sick before I was even able to think about getting further. She's fine now, but I had to take care of her.
What's my position?
That people should know what they're screaming about!
(paraphrased from "The Newsroom)
In the STO universe: No. The Romulan Star Empire has been weakened through the destruction of their homeworld, internal conflicts and the formation of the Romulan Republic. At the same time the Federation is armed to the teeth.
There's a very good example in our recent past for this. Look at the breakdown of the Sowjet Union. NATO and the EU ensured Russia they would never expand to the Russian border. That bordering countries should remain neutral. Well as soon as Russia was weakened enough at the end of the 90s neither the US nor the European countries felt obligated to keep their part of the promise. Today even Ukraine is considered to be a member candidate for both NATO and EU.
In the Roddenberry universe: Yes. TNG tried to establish a very high moral standard and a high degree of idealsm. That they would keep what they had promised is beyond any doubt. Unless the Romulans had annulled the treaty themselves of course.
Early 2409 they were given permission to add cloaking tech to their arsenal. There discussion done and dead.