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Why are digital products different to physical products?
imruined
Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
Ok, so the ire over T6 ships boils down to one single little point... People who are quite literally demanding a free upgrade to their existing ships seem to understand they would not receive the same upgrade free if we were all buyers of the IPhone...
What's the difference between a digital and physical product? I mean really, what is the difference?
When you purchase the product, you purchase it in a given state with the understanding it will fulfill a certain purpose or task...
This makes no difference if that product is a physical item, or a digital item, the purchaser made the entirely voluntary choice to purchase that digital product in a given state...
You might as well turn around to a game publisher and demand all DLC for free because you bought their game in a digital format off Steam, and the latest DLC update changes the content of the existing game... Hell, you should demand they give you free stuff because they release a sequel and you bought all the DLC for the first game which has suddenly been rendered obsolete...
I don't hear people screaming at Maxis/EA demanding free content packs every time there's a new Sims game released... Why do people expect Cryptic to give them free stuff because of a new free expansion - something even alot of F2P MMO's charge for...
This is exactly the same premise here... Cryptic released ships in a given state... We all purchased those ships in that given state, completely of our own volition... At no point was there the condition (stipulated, insinuated, presumed or otherwise) that Cryptic were obligated to upgrade or provide additional functionality to those ships (outside of bug fixes) once purchased... We all received - and are STILL RECEIVING exactly what we agreed to pay for...
Just because a product is a digital product does not mean the developer is required to give you a free upgrade because new content results in that digital product no longer being the best thing around - to expect anything else, really is a perfect example of an 'entitlement mentality'....
What's the difference between a digital and physical product? I mean really, what is the difference?
When you purchase the product, you purchase it in a given state with the understanding it will fulfill a certain purpose or task...
This makes no difference if that product is a physical item, or a digital item, the purchaser made the entirely voluntary choice to purchase that digital product in a given state...
You might as well turn around to a game publisher and demand all DLC for free because you bought their game in a digital format off Steam, and the latest DLC update changes the content of the existing game... Hell, you should demand they give you free stuff because they release a sequel and you bought all the DLC for the first game which has suddenly been rendered obsolete...
I don't hear people screaming at Maxis/EA demanding free content packs every time there's a new Sims game released... Why do people expect Cryptic to give them free stuff because of a new free expansion - something even alot of F2P MMO's charge for...
This is exactly the same premise here... Cryptic released ships in a given state... We all purchased those ships in that given state, completely of our own volition... At no point was there the condition (stipulated, insinuated, presumed or otherwise) that Cryptic were obligated to upgrade or provide additional functionality to those ships (outside of bug fixes) once purchased... We all received - and are STILL RECEIVING exactly what we agreed to pay for...
Just because a product is a digital product does not mean the developer is required to give you a free upgrade because new content results in that digital product no longer being the best thing around - to expect anything else, really is a perfect example of an 'entitlement mentality'....
The entitlement is strong in these forums...
Post edited by imruined on
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I find it interesting that, after several hours, still not one person has responded to this, especially given the number of people arguing for free upgrades...
Is it just that there is no rational counter-argument to what I stated?
Most of us are complaining because we are paying to have a subpar product. Upgrading the ship will not unlock everything a fresh new t6 will have. And not by a small margin. So, what's the point in paying to upgrade ?
If you don't know why a Digital product is different from a physical product, it's because you are either dumb and/or don't WANT to understand the difference.
I am going to let it be up to the individual to decide which one it is.
If I want the mustang 2015 engine for my 2007 mustang it takes someone putting it in which is not cheap. However to change boff/console on digital ships is a few key strokes, since we arent talking about new ship skins etc.
Your talking a min or two per ship. The situations are in no way similar to I-Phones or anything else. Digital items are easy to change depending on the size and scope. Unlike phones that have to be constructed and designed.
But riddle me this, why is it you dont pay for your phone software that auto updates? If you had to pay to update its software then you might complain right? The phones software is required for the phone to work, just as your ship is required for you character to work in STO.
(bweep! bweep! bweep!)
"Captain! Sensors indicate a fanboi approaching at high velocity"
"Evasive maneuvers! Helm, get us out of here!"
To produce a second car, you actually need all the materials that this car is made of again, and these materials make up a large part of the cost of the car.
But to produce a second copy of a virtual object, the material costs are very, very small.
Now, the other part of the cost of a ship is stuff like "brand value" as well as the cost of "innovation" (e.g. building an efficieint engine and what not). This cost is often very big, much bigger than the cost of the individual item, and you split the cost effectively across the many copies you can make, since the cost is the same for the second item as the first.
Now, the physical cost of producing a starship in STO is pretty much nil. The non-physical part is higher, a lot of that is the design of the ships looks, another part is the gameplay mechanical parts associated.
Ships like Tier 5 Upgrade ship that looks 100 % the same as the unupgraded form require a less work.
For that reason, the digital upgrade of a product should cost a lot less.
---
But there are also different things to consider. Startrek Online has not seen a level cap increase in a very, very long time. There was no reason to assume that it would actually happen anymore. Especially since it did not happen with the last expansion either.
So people went out and bought fleet ships and lockbox and lobi ships because they are assumed these will stick around as endgame forever.
So basically, it's like everyone assuming that Volkswagen has designed the ultimate, final car anyway and you can buy t any time, it will stay around forever.
Turns out that isn't true.
But even that may not be such a big deal, if there was a money-costing upgrade deal. But the frustration is - the thing you get is not actually fully Tier 6 endgame. It comes short of a few features, from which I consider at least the missing BO slot compared to "real "Tier 6 ships critical for balance purposes.
So you spend money on a ship that you really wanted, under the assumption it would be endgame forever, and then this is no longer true. You have to spend extra money to make it slightly less than the real Tier 6 ships. From which you may not even like the designs (you already heard the complaints about the Federation ships.), so you know that you will probably spend money on something that's not quite equal, or on something you don't like design-wise.
If I pay 5-10$ I expect to have something worth that price in return. Currently, this money would be better kept and spent on a t6 than on upgrading, since upgrading doesn't provide even half the perks a t6 will have.
Also, your analogy is flawed. Your phone still works, right ? And considering the primary purpose of a phone is... to phone (I know, you wouldn't have guessed), it's not obsolete. On the other hand, without upgrades, our ship will be a lot less efficient than a t6 (and by that, a whole tier difference). To keep the analogy, that would mean your Iphone is this kind of phone, and if you pay to upgrade it, you have this. It's not an Iphone yet, keep paying !
It has more development time than anything under the pwe banner.
It will have a billion new features.
Just at a later time.
The problem here is that the upgrade offer sucks on multiple levels
This said, Cryptic has dealt with the issue as far as I am concerned. Do you have to upgrade your ships for the new content? They say No, you can play it with your current ships. Do the Lobi or lockbox ships have to have more money forked over to upgrade? No, it is a free upgrade. So, you can keep using the ship you want to use, you arent forced to upgrade but if you want to upgrade you have the option to do so. It is up to you whether you want to invest money in doing it.
You are not really going to get a good answer from anyone. I had posed a similar question in other threads where people were complaining about T6 ship and that would totally make T5.5 ship obsolete. I was basically using CPUs as analogy.
The Core 2 Duo / Quad CPUs represent the T5.5 ships. Back in 2006 - 2008 they were the best CPUs on the market for consumers; taking back the gaming performance crown from AMD. The 1st generation Core i3/i5/i7 CPUs was as a pretty good upgrade from the 2nd generation Core 2 Duo / Quad; about 10% on average assuming the same clockspeed. They would be considered the T6 ships.
I asked if people would have liked it if AMD and Intel stopped designing CPUs back in 2008 so that technology stops advancing and the 2nd generation Core 2 Quads would still rule as the most powerful CPUs today. A Haswell generation Core i5 CPU clocked at the same clock speed as a 2nd generation C2Q CPU would be on average 39% more powerful.
Additionally, I asked if they would expect Intel (or AMD) to give free CPUs to everyone because their old C2Q CPUs are "obsolete".
Of the handful of people who actually answered my post the results are as follows:
1. No, people do not want AMD and Intel to stop advancing CPU performance.
2. They will gladly spend money for more powerful CPUs as long as they believe it is worth it for the performance increase. This excludes answers from those people who said they wanted a free CPU upgrade because they were poor college students or teenagers.
3. They do not want T6 ships to be released because they will make T5.5 ship obsolete and worthless.
4. They think that T6 ships is a way for Cryptic / PWE to milk more money out of the player base.
Note how #1 and #3 as well as #2 and #4 seem to contradict each other. The general response for the disparity is because STO is a game. The release of T6 ship means they need to spend more Zen to have the same amount of fun. Or it is because other MMO games (I don't recall any specific MMO game mentioned though) that increased the level cap seems to have offered some type of free upgrades to appease the current player base.
It is a bit irrational, but it is what it is.
I find it interesting that, after several hours, the OP still hasn't responded to this, especially given the number of people disputing his post....
Is it just that there is no rational counter-argument to what these people stated?
when i agreed to the tos and eula i understood what i was getting into, most dont seem to realize it. when i buy something on the game, mistake or otherwise its done and there is nothing to change that, so what do i do? go on the forum troll and cry about it and look like a real jerk for doing it? or do i keep my head in the game and just work around it knowing what the rules are? i do the latter everytime. same with the lts, i got what i paid for, nothing more or less as advertised, now im reaping all the rewards as surplus for more than several months already even if it doesnt seem like much at first it was worth the purchase.
as for t5 stuff for now i got no regrets on my t5 excelsior, its had a good run, but when its time is up, it is up and i have to move on. right now i can keep the excel as a t5u thats fine, im casually playing on the pve front so its not really a bother this extra stuff, but i will play a t6 ship when i can even so.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
You can't swallow digital products and get rushed to the hospital and get your stomach pumped.
What? That IS a difference. And you DID ask.
There's always some stuff about individuals who owned Wii's or Xbox's and TRIBBLE them to be essentially universal ROM consoles, only to get arrested and sued for it.
It's in the license agreement that you don't own that physical merchandise and have no legal right to modify it, despite having paid for and possessing it.
Once upon a time when you bought something it was yours, instead you're only really renting or purchasing the right to use the equipment. It's been this way for about 20 years now.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2011/jan/13/sony-suing-ps3-hackers
http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/05/student-arrested-for-modding-xbox-consoles/
https://www.eff.org/wp/unintended-consequences-under-dmca
In my post above your post I offered very compelling evidence that they are quite different. I've never once swallowed DLC, for instance. I did once, though, swallow a Hot Wheels car.
As you mention in your post, the T5 and T5-Upgrades are the same exact ship. In order to bring your ship up to T5-U standards, you need to 'purchase' the new additions. Players are not buying an entirely new ship.
I think that is where the problem resides. Since players are not buying an entirely new ship, the price to upgrade them should be rather null. Player already purchased the ship model.
Because an EULA stated that PWE/Crypitc can change this game, whenever they want, however they want, and they do not have to do a refund.
And guess what to play this game, whether you all realize it or not, you electronically signed that document.
And plus many of you got atleast some time out of that tier 5 ship before it was replaced.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
T5 and T5.5 ships are not being replaced.
Players should not have to pay twice, for they are just upgrading their 'already purchased' ship.
t6 is a step above, it is a direct replacement, the t5u is the last upgrade of that tier, it isnt equal, but it is competitive.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
If the combined price of a T5 and T5-Upgrade is equal to the price of a T6 ship, we will suddenly have a serious conundrum on our hands. In order to compensate for the differences, the price of a T6 ship should hover around $35-$40 dollars.
If there's ever been a term that does get thrown around far too much on the internet - and especially on these forums - without any correct use, it's 'fanboi'... Just because I agree with something that Cryptic has done, does not make me a fanboi...
Don't believe me... Go and do a thorough search of my posts...
Yeah, perfectly rational argument : I posted that before going to bed... Still aint seen a rational counter argument yet disproving that digital products are no different from physical products when made obsolescent...
Funny you should mention paying for phone updates, as I used the IPhone specifically in my first post as people DID pay for a software update... What was different between the Apple IPhone 5 and the 5S? One thing... Siri... Yes, a software update that should have been 'free' and never worked properly for alot of people anyway... All other phone specifications were identical when it came to hardware, yet people still queued for hours and re-bought a phone they already had... The justification was that Apple spent time and money developing the Siri software... For the record, I have always preferred Android phones anyway...
But guess what...
Cryptic spent money developing Delta Rising and Tier 6 ships, since they're providing the expansion for free, I don't begrudge them charging for something to try and turn a profit and keep the lights on... If that something is a small micro-transaction to modify our agreed original purchase, then so be it... Consider that micro-transaction a DLC for our existing ship to add additional functionality, as that's pretty much what it is...
But perhaps I should have been clearer... The main point was that we all chose to purchase a digital product, in a specific state, at our own volition... Cryptic had no hand in the purchase, besides providing the digital product... They are under no obligation to change or update that product as we agreed to purchase it in that particular state, it does not matter if it is rendered obsolescent as the agreement was for the original digital product... This is not being a 'fanboi' simply because I am defending Crytpic's position, it is a matter of fact in this situation...
Not one person has yet given a rational challenging argument to the purchase of digital products on Steam, which are later rendered obsolete by new products... Why? Because you can still play those games and there is nothing stopping you using your existing T5.5 CStore ships without upgrading - in it's present state, as you purchased it...
Much like an old Steam game, they're no longer the latest and greatest, but those ships will still do more than an adequate job in story episodes and most likely would still be perfectly capable in new Elites, in the same way level 40 ships are fine in current elites...
Sure, I agree, they're no longer the best ship in game, but you are still receiving exactly what you paid for - once again through your own volition - without spending any more money...
You people pay for game consoles, ihpones, TVs.. and what not knowing it will be inferior within a few months or a year...
Sure doesn't stop people from paying thousands of dollars on a PHONE.
We've got to use most ships for several years here...
We all know people are too arrogant or ignorant to even pay attention to this..
All they are capable of is ranting and complaining.