I will be the last to give financial advice but you are probably better off just farming that dilithium and spend you money on stock, education, family etc etc etc instead
Thousands? On a single phone? What phone is this? I'm admittedly out of the loop. Most I ever spent on a phone was 200.
The suggested retail price for an iPhone 5s 64 gig is $800.00. You get a purchase discount if you are willing to sign a long-term contract with the carrier - which generally tends to last about as long as it takes from them to come out with the new phone.
And then there are phones the ultra-rich buy that can run into the six-figures with their gold or platinum and whatnot. The Sony Ericsson Black Diamond goes for $300,000.00.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
How are the different? The obvious amount of work involved in the upgrade process in this case.
If I want the mustang 2015 engine for my 2007 mustang it takes someone putting it in which is not cheap. However to change boff/console on digital ships is a few key strokes, since we arent talking about new ship skins etc.
Your talking a min or two per ship. The situations are in no way similar to I-Phones or anything else. Digital items are easy to change depending on the size and scope. Unlike phones that have to be constructed and designed.
But riddle me this, why is it you dont pay for your phone software that auto updates? If you had to pay to update its software then you might complain right? The phones software is required for the phone to work, just as your ship is required for you character to work in STO.
Ummm, what world do you live in?
*JUST* because it is a digital product does not imply that it takes "a few simple keystrokes" to alter or change. Some things can be altered in a simplified way, while others are harder to alter as they are deeply imbedded into the game's core programing. What you think may be simply be a "few simple keystrokes" could take hours upon hours of delving through code line by line, testing, extracting, testing, altering, etc. etc.
It was these issues that Cryptic's development team has had issues with getting say ... a Fleet Guramba implemented. They would have had to alter coding at least 2 or 3 times after subsequent patches altering codes in order for them to do it. That's a "simple" change of additional hull, shields, console slots right?
If coding were so simple to do, *everyone* would have their own Stark Trek based game designed how they wanted to play it. Coding takes years of learning to get it down properly ... then there's the limitations of the game engine, what's been done to patch the game system for new systems, bugs that invariably crop up, 3D rendering, designing, coding. It's not as simple, nor as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
What's the difference between a digital and physical product? I mean really, what is the difference?
Really? What's the difference between tangible and intangible? What's the difference between something you can always keep and something that can be taken away at the whim of someone else? What's the difference between something you could resell if you wanted to and something you can't?
What a silly question when rephrased.
I wasn't a big fan of cash for virtual items before STO came out and that opinion hasn't changed in four years. At first I could talk myself into justifying the subscription model of STO: supporting continuing development, new content, and all that. But $15/month for what has actually come out? Don't think so. Had I not gone lifetime on the pre-order of a disc (a physical product I might add), this game would'a been sent to the bit bucket 3 1/2 years ago.
Really? What's the difference between tangible and intangible? What's the difference between something you can always keep and something that can be taken away at the whim of someone else? What's the difference between something you could resell if you wanted to and something you can't?
What a silly question when rephrased.
I wasn't a big fan of cash for virtual items before STO came out and that opinion hasn't changed in four years. At first I could talk myself into justifying the subscription model of STO: supporting continuing development, new content, and all that. But $15/month for what has actually come out? Don't think so. Had I not gone lifetime on the pre-order of a disc (a physical product I might add), this game would'a been sent to the bit bucket 3 1/2 years ago.
Well, without meaning to sound surrealist here, nothing has value... Nothing... Until we put a value on it...
Gold is the traditional basis of all wealth and the foundation of the worlds' economies, yet, it is nothing more than a shiny yellow lump of metal - until we put a value on it...
Oil, is nothing more than a black sludge that is the remnants of millions of years of biological decomposition, it is worthless - until we put a value on it...
Credit is worthless, it is just a bunch of numbers on a monthly statement - until we put a value on it...
The ancient Aztecs used cocoa beans as currency, because, to their culture, they were more valued than almost any other commodity... Cocoa beans are nothing more than part of a plants' reproductive process - until the Aztec culture put value on them beyond this...
Digital products have a value because you accept that they do, if people choose to deny that, they are being foolish - and frankly, this is why people are upset, which I understand, however, they are then refusing to acknowledge a simple premise of purchasing a product, that being that once purchased they are not necessarily entitled to free ongoing improvements, unless otherwise stated...
Digital downloads off Steam have a value, yet I still don't hear anyone refuting this, nor do I hear them refuting that because a game releases a DLC they are in some way entitled to it for free because it alters their original purchase... I might also add that Steam Digital Downloads have no physical form which can be carried with you, merely transferred from computer to computer by using the owner's account, just as STO purchases are...
Given this and in all reality, just like any other purchase, the buyer should not automatically expect their purchase to be upgraded or have any added value, unless that was stipulated within the purchase agreement, such as on-going patching and the promise of free updates... Cryptic regularly update STO for free... Ships are nothing more than DLC when compared to the Steam Digital Download model... DLC is often rendered obsolescent by new content updates and expansions - it's a fact of life in all game purchases and not once have I heard someone try and claim otherwise...
And yes, I purchased an STO Collector's Edition off the shelf... I still have all the added collectibles kicking around in the box... That does not mean that I am entitled to, nor do I have any right to demand that, an entirely voluntary digital DLC purchase, should receive free ongoing improvement, beyond the original purchase agreement and state of the original digital product...
At no point has Cryptic promised to ensure that CStore ships would not be made obsolescent, and any rational and reasonable individual would have been well aware that sooner or later, they would be rendered obsolescent, either by new content or the closure of STO...
Digital items only need to be made once. A modeller makes it, and its done.
That costs a lot less than remaking it always to sell it, like a physical one.
Also, digital products won't last forever. They can be nerfed down, deleted, and so on. Servers can come down too.
Basically, this means that a physical product is worth much more than a digital one.
As I said, an item is only as valuable as the value we place on it... I agree though, digital products are indeed easier to update as the basic model etc is already there, but, as someone else already posted, to add new functionality is not always as simple as the click of a button...
This is especially so when adding new functionality which has never before been considered, such as the premise of a ship scaling in level with the player... This would require alot more coding than simply ticking a box, this is especially valid here as that box never existed before...
As I have also stated, Delta Rising would have cost Cryptic considerable time and money to develop... The technology to allow ship scaling would have also cost them time and money, yet people are demonstrating an 'entitlement mentality' by refusing to acknowledge this fact and demanding they receive Cryptic's time and money for free because they purchased a ship, potentially years ago, which has just now been rendered obsolescent...
Let's be entirely honest here too... If Cryptic did offer free upgrades of T5.5 CStore ships, the next demand would be for free upgrades of that T2 Constellation all the way to T5.9, you know I'm right here...
It would open the floodgates and there is no way anyone can deny this...
As I have also stated, Delta Rising would have cost Cryptic considerable time and money to develop... The technology to allow ship scaling would have also cost them time and money, yet people are demonstrating an 'entitlement mentality' by refusing to acknowledge this fact and demanding they receive Cryptic's time and money for free because they purchased a ship, potentially years ago, which has just now been rendered obsolescent...
Actually, that technology has existed since launch. Shuttles have scaling shield and hull HP modifiers that increase as you level. The most they would have had to do was modify that code slightly with different values for each ship in the "new" tier 5-U.
So, the entire thing is really just a copy and paste job with new database entries and a few variables changed around.
Actually, that technology has existed since launch. Shuttles have scaling shield and hull HP modifiers that increase as you level. The most they would have had to do was modify that code slightly with different values for each ship in the "new" tier 5-U.
So, the entire thing is really just a copy and paste job with new database entries and a few numbers changed around.
Without any of us knowing the structure of the database, it's merely presumption that it's a simple 'copy and paste' task...
However, I do stand corrected on ship HP and shield scaling being a new technology in of itself... Don't forget however that there is also the ship 'mastery' which is yet to be fully explained... This is also relevant to T5U ships...
I don't hear people screaming at Maxis/EA demanding free content packs every time there's a new Sims game released... Why do people expect Cryptic to give them free stuff because of a new free expansion - something even alot of F2P MMO's charge for...
With the TRIBBLE job EA does they need to give the packs away free. After all, EA's motto is, if it's not broke, break it, charge for it, then break it some more. Sims 3 still has bugs in it, real game breaking bugs that have been around since it was released then you add all the packs and the games almost unplayable because of all the bugs and their response is Sims 4? Yeah, sure that's going to run better. A pack of trained chimps could do a better job than them. And then theres their mmo game Battlefield Heros, you better be using hacks to cheat with because if your just a regular player playing the game you'll get kicked off by punkbuster.
I suspect that it might be a psychological concept of 'what' is being bought.
When you buy a physical product, you first note the physical problem, and then identify something that you think will fix the problem. So for example, you don't want to wash dishes by hand, so you identify that you want a dishwasher, then you identify you want the "Model X", and you buy that model as the solution to your problem.
When you buy a virtual product, you identify as per for a physical product, but you identify the issue, and then identify the solution in terms of its effects, rather than in terms of its characteristics. For example, you identify you want an "End Game Ship", so purchase a ship that is "End Game". You'll see people saying "What's the best X in game?" rather than "What ships give me X boff slots, Y console slots" - this is an example of the identified problem and presumed solution. In virtual terms, it's "best" rather than "features". In physical purchases, people who want "The Best Car" will be upset with their purchase the second some other car has something their car doesn't. Same thing, but I suspect it's more prevalent in virtual purchases as you're not purchasing a physical thing but rather a set of features.
The release of T6 means that people bought T5 ships, but not in terms of what T5 possessed but in terms of "T5 = top of line". T6 means that T5 will no longer be "Top of line". Thus, people are upset and demanding an upgrade to their purchase, to move it back into what they purchased, namely a Top of Line ship rather than a T5 ship.
The release of T6 means that people bought T5 ships, but not in terms of what T5 possessed but in terms of "T5 = top of line". T6 means that T5 will no longer be "Top of line". Thus, people are upset and demanding an upgrade to their purchase, to move it back into what they purchased, namely a Top of Line ship rather than a T5 ship.
There's also the matter of tier 5 itself being monetized to the extreme, between the exorbitant Fleet Credit cost for 9-console retrofits of leveling ships and Fleet Ship Modules only unlocking refits on a per character basis. Frankly, I don't think it's much of a leap to understand why people feel that this upgrade scheme is a slap in the face.
here is the one thing that as far as i know no one has adressed T4 ships on end game in DR. I have a few c-store T5/T5.5 and a event ship or 2 for the record. bu i know there are ppl who are totaly f2p. my ? is will they have to pony up and get at a min a fleet ship or will the free ships be able to handle the new content. my guess is a ftp escort or bop captan is a sitting duck. (we all know warbirds are OP so qq or roll a romy)
here is the one thing that as far as i know no one has adressed T4 ships on end game in DR. I have a few c-store T5/T5.5 and a event ship or 2 for the record. bu i know there are ppl who are totaly f2p. my ? is will they have to pony up and get at a min a fleet ship or will the free ships be able to handle the new content. my guess is a ftp escort or bop captan is a sitting duck. (we all know warbirds are OP so qq or roll a romy)
In all honesty, since T4 ships can hold their own in current ESTF's, they should be sufficient for all story content at the very least... As far as level 60 Elites, untill we know more about options for ships, who knows...
I will speculate however that, given the information at hand, the difference between a level 40 ship and a level 60 ship will be a moderate difference in HP and Shield strength and 1 or 2 consoles less, so really, the difference won't be that extreme... Yes, they won't be able to take as big a hit as a T6 or T5.9 ship, and will do moderately less DPS, but overall, they should still get the job done - especially if the player is capable...
The capabilities of the player are particularly relevant given I have seen people in Scimitars who struggle to get above 5k DPS presently... An upgraded Scimitar with a poor player behind it is still gonna perform poorly...
For all we know, come DR, there might be some form of token system at 50 like there was for previous 'rank ups', but until we know more, there's little point speculating on this really...
You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials
We may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities through the Service and may allow the purchase of in game “points” that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities (“Zen”). After the purchase you will directly have the right to use Zen and be able to it in the way as is stipulated
in most cases I would agree with your statement however with the t5 upgrade there is a slightly different case.
going back to your IPhone analogy, suppose you bought an IPhone and your mate won one for free in a competition or was given one for free then a year later they bought out a software update that would make the IPhone much better but heres the catch you have to pay for your update but your mate gets his update for free.
there was no mention when you bought the IPhone that any updates would need to be paid for and no mention in your friends prize that all updates would be free, why should you have to pay for your update when your mate gets a free update just cos he got his phone for free.
the case im trying to make is if you give free upgrades to one or in this case a multitude of ones you should give it to all.
Most of us are complaining because we are paying to have a subpar product. Upgrading the ship will not unlock everything a fresh new t6 will have. And not by a small margin. So, what's the point in paying to upgrade ?
agreed if all the ships that are getting the free t5u upgrade as is and the ones that were having to pay got a full upgrade to t6 I would be fine with that, as it is might as well not bother paying to upgrade better to buy a t6 instead.
theres no full detail yet but im guessing if I pay to upgrade all my c-store ships it will cost me about $150.
You people pay for game consoles, ihpones, TVs.. and what not knowing it will be inferior within a few months or a year...
Sure doesn't stop people from paying thousands of dollars on a PHONE.
We've got to use most ships for several years here...
We all know people are too arrogant or ignorant to even pay attention to this..
All they are capable of is ranting and complaining.
that's fine for tier 6 ships I have no problem with them or t7 t8 or t9 if they ever appear, it would not even have bothered me if they said heres t6 no upgrades for t5 so live with it.
what bothers me is they are saying you paid for your ship now pay again for an upgrade, but you other lot can get a free upgrade.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Ok, so the ire over T6 ships boils down to one single little point... People who are quite literally demanding a free upgrade to their existing ships seem to understand they would not receive the same upgrade free if we were all buyers of the IPhone...
What's the difference between a digital and physical product? I mean really, what is the difference?
When you purchase the product, you purchase it in a given state with the understanding it will fulfill a certain purpose or task...
This makes no difference if that product is a physical item, or a digital item, the purchaser made the entirely voluntary choice to purchase that digital product in a given state...
You might as well turn around to a game publisher and demand all DLC for free because you bought their game in a digital format off Steam, and the latest DLC update changes the content of the existing game... Hell, you should demand they give you free stuff because they release a sequel and you bought all the DLC for the first game which has suddenly been rendered obsolete...
I don't hear people screaming at Maxis/EA demanding free content packs every time there's a new Sims game released... Why do people expect Cryptic to give them free stuff because of a new free expansion - something even alot of F2P MMO's charge for...
This is exactly the same premise here... Cryptic released ships in a given state... We all purchased those ships in that given state, completely of our own volition... At no point was there the condition (stipulated, insinuated, presumed or otherwise) that Cryptic were obligated to upgrade or provide additional functionality to those ships (outside of bug fixes) once purchased... We all received - and are STILL RECEIVING exactly what we agreed to pay for...
Just because a product is a digital product does not mean the developer is required to give you a free upgrade because new content results in that digital product no longer being the best thing around - to expect anything else, really is a perfect example of an 'entitlement mentality'....
Let me see if I can answer the spirit of your question.
First a digital product and a physical one in this case you get what you agreed upon. No more, and if you get less then you make a legitimate complaint. Example would be if the servers went down for several days. You get your bill prorated for the lost days, any event running at the time of the outage extended so that the bargain is upheld. That fulfills the agreement stated.
There are a few unstateds that people come up with however. One is something I have gotten ridicule over. The T1 Connie or NX. "Why bother having those they are only T1 and you will out level them too fast to be of use. Save your money for endgame and get the real product." Usually with a bit more condesention but I assume you get the gist. Players that bought the 'endgame' gear feel they now have 'wasted' their time and money as the goal posts for 'top of the line' and 'end game' have moved. They take it as a personal assault on them and demand either that the goal posts not move or that they get a free upgrade. Because they believe they bought the now and eternal 'best'. What is not shown however is where it was ever said that these would always be the endgame and best.
Note the ire that came with each new ship released or lock box ship. Many were vocal about how it disturbed the status quo. And why should they support yet another money grab. Because they wish things to remain as they are indefinitely with them having been right in their purchases and decisions. It vindicates them. Altering the status quo makes them wrong and wronged and is seen as a personal attack on them. It is up to you to decide if they are right or not.
I hope this answers your question.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I'm currently confused at all the comparisons to physical products in general. When you buy a physical product and when you buy a digital one, the nature of the two purchases is fundamentally different.
When you buy a physical product, you purchase actual physical material in a particular configuration.
When you buy a digital product, you purchase the ability to access a particular part of the code. You don't actually own the code that generates the product. You don't really own anything besides the ability to access an in-game feature. Notice I didn't use the words "right to access" because if you violate EULA and TOS, they can just take it away like that.
This is why it really makes no sense when people demand a refund when their ship gets nerfed. Their access to the ship has not changed in any way. In the same vein, upgraded T5 ships are considered a separate product and not a change to the existing product. If they want to charge for access to those ships, there's not much room to argue. This is the current framework in which the sale of digital goods operates. Now, if you feel that the framework ought to change, that's a different discussion and quite frankly not really determined by any individual. It will be determined by the market as a whole.
Now as for why they're charging for T5 ships, it's probably due to the fact that they already expect T6 ships not to sell to everyone. They know that some people don't want Cryptic designed ships, and if they gave you the T5 upgrades for free on all ships, the sales for T6 ships would be even worse. Charging for T5 will increase T6 ship sales because there will be a portion of people that say "T5 upgrades aren't worth the price. I might as well buy a T6 ship." This is a sentiment I already see in this very thread, and therefore, to them, mission accomplished.
I'm currently confused at all the comparisons to physical products in general. When you buy a physical product and when you buy a digital one, the nature of the two purchases is fundamentally different.
Because in the game itself a starship is considered a physical object. Sure in the real world it is nothing more than just bits of data, but through the eyes of your digital avatar, a starship is a physical object.
Because in the game itself a starship is considered a physical object. Sure in the real world it is nothing more than just bits of data, but through the eyes of your digital avatar, a starship is a physical object.
Is it your digital avatar that's paying up though? It's a real life player that's purchasing the product. Perhaps you're right in that this is the reason why people see them as the same, but they fundamentally aren't.
You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials
We may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities through the Service and may allow the purchase of in game “points” that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities (“Zen”). After the purchase you will directly have the right to use Zen and be able to it in the way as is stipulated
I really don't understand why this forum is getting so much attention for, it's really easy to understand and, it's spell out nicely in their terms and conditions.
Physical = you own the physicality of side product. In terms of software however, you only own the physical stuff to it, but not the software itself.
Digital = you don't own at all, and Cryptic and/or PWE can change or remove it or do whatever to said digital product. You only have the permission to use the said digital property.
Another words, the ships in this game, you'll never own no matter what, it's Cryptic and PWE. You just have the rights to use said ship.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
The new iPhone comes out. You can still use your old iPhone in the same way you intended to use it when you purchased it.
New t6 ships come out. You cannot still use your old t5 ship in the same way you intended to use it when you purchased it because everyone else is getting t6 (pvp) and content is getting harder (pve).
That said, I'm not up in arms about this. But I think it's silly to make a inept comparison and then whine when no one responds to it.
You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials
We may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities through the Service and may allow the purchase of in game points that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities (Zen). After the purchase you will directly have the right to use Zen and be able to it in the way as is stipulated
Thank you for posting this. I think the best way to put it in layman's terms is that when you make a C-Store purchase, you aren't actually buying anything, you are licensing it. You agreed to the license when you started playing the game. The license says that they own whatever you licensed, they are letting you use it, and they can change it if they want, or take it away entirely if you violate the license.
It's even true of STO itself. Even if you bought a physical copy of the game, you also bought a license to use that product, and they can render it useless if you violate the license.
This is how most software and other digital purchases work. It sucks, but that's the way the world is going.
The relationship we have with Cryptic is that when we license something (either a C-Store item or the game itself), we are doing so in good faith that the item in question will never be altered to an unreasonable degree from the state in which it was purchased. So far, I believe that they are still operating within that good faith, but my definition of "unreasonable" may be different than yours.
The new iPhone comes out. You can still use your old iPhone in the same way you intended to use it when you purchased it.
New t6 ships come out. You cannot still use your old t5 ship in the same way you intended to use it when you purchased it because everyone else is getting t6 (pvp) and content is getting harder (pve).
That said, I'm not up in arms about this. But I think it's silly to make a inept comparison and then whine when no one responds to it.
Inept comparison? Really? This is odd considering you hit the nail on the head in your first line when it came to the point I was making... You can still use existing ships, even after Delta Rising and they will fulfill the exact same purpose your purchased them for albeit, like an older model phone, just not as well as the newest model...
People bought ships which, due to Delta Rising, are no longer best in slot... Does that mean they are suddenly useless? Absolutely not, they will still do exactly the same job they did before... Does it mean someone else might have something better, yes it does, this is a simple fact of life with any new release of any product...
So far though, there is no indication that they will immediately be rendered useless, much like your older IPhone... They will still do the same job as they do now...
And please don't even suggest that they will be suddenly rendered useless in any new content... Firstly, we don't know what PVE content is coming and given that Cryptic's interpretation of 'Elite' content is quite moderate in difficulty compared to many MMO's, it's unlikely a T5 will be unable to do level 60 content - T4's are more than capable of doing current Elites...
As far as PVP is concerned, T6 will have an advantage yes, but again, it does not mean they will instantly be rendered ineffective as the difference between T5 and T6 (based on the information at hand), appears to be moderate at best and possibly even not that different from some of the variation between current T5 ships designs...
As far as 'whining when no one responds', a very inept insult if ever I saw one given the whole point of the bump was to try and motivate exactly what ensued, discussion about why physical and digital products are perceived differently...
Perhaps my comparison to an IPhone was not so inept afterall and purely intentional for this reason... I could have opened up with an analogy to Steam (as I raised later) but wanted to use a comparison to a physical item in my opening post to generate comment...
And by the same token, if I do NOTHING to my 5s, does that mean it's suddenly useless? Nope - nothing has changed; it can still do what it does and can do it well.
So far as I, personally, am concerned the same applies to the ship T5-U ship situation.
Here's the thing... those ships have to become useless... at the very least when they realize people aren't going to pay another 1000 Zen on top of the 5000 Zen they already spend or the 6500 Zen (Unless Cryptic wants their very own riot that has to be the minimum price of a T6 3-Ship Bundle to even make a wee bit of sense) for a T6 Pack.
So the very notion of "Hey, just pay some more" is the thing, at least I, get a bit angry at them.
That the T6 Ships (at least the Fed ship) are a complete Design-Desaster is just the icing on the sh*t-cake and the very fact that the Upgrade to T5-U is in itself completely useless as the very key features are missing FOR THAT PRICE is nothing less than the Devs Mooning the Playerbase from behind bulletproof glass.
What should be done is that AT LEAST those that purchased a 5000 Zen Ship Pack should be able to have their Set be upgraded to FULL T6 if they still insist on charging that much.
Edit: For emphasis as my rant might not be coherent enough for others to understand:
Making us pay twice for a ship to just get a useless and inferior abomination is bad! Full T6 Upgrade at least on 3-Ship Packs and get us a real Trek Design for the new T6 Ships and not this "Tron Online" TRIBBLE.
Upgraded Lockbox ships aren't inferior to T6s ships. Existing lockbox ships lack the 13th bridge officer power once they're upgraded and they don't have a Starship Trait, but they generally have superior hull and shield mods. Additionally a T5-U upgraded lockbox/lobi ship will have 11 console slots vs. a standard T6 ship's 10 console slots.
I hope to be able to answer more questions later today.
Thanks,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
Cryptic Studios
Systems Designer
Lockbox and Fleet/10 console ships will get the same upgraded stats.
I will post this every time people spread this inferiority myth.
Apologies in advance for not actually addressing the matter at hand, but I wanted to chime in with something that I believe gamers need to start thinking about.
I disagree that this is a case of "digital product" versus "physical product". It's more a wider argument about what we should define as a product, to begin with.
As someone who has created art assets for video games, I never had such hubris as to consider my creations a "product" in their own right. I certainly never thought my artwork alone warranted a price tag that - since the rise of Steam sales - most studios would struggle to sell an entire game for.
These just seemed like absurd notions to me at the time.
I could see how hard everyone else was working too, after all. Why should my work be more valuable than theirs - or, indeed, the end product itself? Those were my thoughts.
Perhaps it's just easier to see it this way when you're right in the thick of it. Who knows?
Of course, customers can set the goalposts wherever they want. That is how supply and demand works, after all.
Just don't ask me to understand why they choose to set the bar where they do, because I'm at a complete loss.
I suppose I am, as they say, "getting too old for this s***".
Comments
Thousands? On a single phone? What phone is this? I'm admittedly out of the loop. Most I ever spent on a phone was 200.
Maybe not at one time, but approaching that number quickly after a couple of purchases on higher-end phones.
The people who buy every single new apple phone that comes out.
I will be the last to give financial advice but you are probably better off just farming that dilithium and spend you money on stock, education, family etc etc etc instead
And then there are phones the ultra-rich buy that can run into the six-figures with their gold or platinum and whatnot. The Sony Ericsson Black Diamond goes for $300,000.00.
Ummm, what world do you live in?
*JUST* because it is a digital product does not imply that it takes "a few simple keystrokes" to alter or change. Some things can be altered in a simplified way, while others are harder to alter as they are deeply imbedded into the game's core programing. What you think may be simply be a "few simple keystrokes" could take hours upon hours of delving through code line by line, testing, extracting, testing, altering, etc. etc.
It was these issues that Cryptic's development team has had issues with getting say ... a Fleet Guramba implemented. They would have had to alter coding at least 2 or 3 times after subsequent patches altering codes in order for them to do it. That's a "simple" change of additional hull, shields, console slots right?
If coding were so simple to do, *everyone* would have their own Stark Trek based game designed how they wanted to play it. Coding takes years of learning to get it down properly ... then there's the limitations of the game engine, what's been done to patch the game system for new systems, bugs that invariably crop up, 3D rendering, designing, coding. It's not as simple, nor as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
Really? What's the difference between tangible and intangible? What's the difference between something you can always keep and something that can be taken away at the whim of someone else? What's the difference between something you could resell if you wanted to and something you can't?
What a silly question when rephrased.
I wasn't a big fan of cash for virtual items before STO came out and that opinion hasn't changed in four years. At first I could talk myself into justifying the subscription model of STO: supporting continuing development, new content, and all that. But $15/month for what has actually come out? Don't think so. Had I not gone lifetime on the pre-order of a disc (a physical product I might add), this game would'a been sent to the bit bucket 3 1/2 years ago.
Well, without meaning to sound surrealist here, nothing has value... Nothing... Until we put a value on it...
Gold is the traditional basis of all wealth and the foundation of the worlds' economies, yet, it is nothing more than a shiny yellow lump of metal - until we put a value on it...
Oil, is nothing more than a black sludge that is the remnants of millions of years of biological decomposition, it is worthless - until we put a value on it...
Credit is worthless, it is just a bunch of numbers on a monthly statement - until we put a value on it...
The ancient Aztecs used cocoa beans as currency, because, to their culture, they were more valued than almost any other commodity... Cocoa beans are nothing more than part of a plants' reproductive process - until the Aztec culture put value on them beyond this...
Digital products have a value because you accept that they do, if people choose to deny that, they are being foolish - and frankly, this is why people are upset, which I understand, however, they are then refusing to acknowledge a simple premise of purchasing a product, that being that once purchased they are not necessarily entitled to free ongoing improvements, unless otherwise stated...
Digital downloads off Steam have a value, yet I still don't hear anyone refuting this, nor do I hear them refuting that because a game releases a DLC they are in some way entitled to it for free because it alters their original purchase... I might also add that Steam Digital Downloads have no physical form which can be carried with you, merely transferred from computer to computer by using the owner's account, just as STO purchases are...
Given this and in all reality, just like any other purchase, the buyer should not automatically expect their purchase to be upgraded or have any added value, unless that was stipulated within the purchase agreement, such as on-going patching and the promise of free updates... Cryptic regularly update STO for free... Ships are nothing more than DLC when compared to the Steam Digital Download model... DLC is often rendered obsolescent by new content updates and expansions - it's a fact of life in all game purchases and not once have I heard someone try and claim otherwise...
And yes, I purchased an STO Collector's Edition off the shelf... I still have all the added collectibles kicking around in the box... That does not mean that I am entitled to, nor do I have any right to demand that, an entirely voluntary digital DLC purchase, should receive free ongoing improvement, beyond the original purchase agreement and state of the original digital product...
At no point has Cryptic promised to ensure that CStore ships would not be made obsolescent, and any rational and reasonable individual would have been well aware that sooner or later, they would be rendered obsolescent, either by new content or the closure of STO...
That costs a lot less than remaking it always to sell it, like a physical one.
Also, digital products won't last forever. They can be nerfed down, deleted, and so on. Servers can come down too.
Basically, this means that a physical product is worth much more than a digital one.
As I said, an item is only as valuable as the value we place on it... I agree though, digital products are indeed easier to update as the basic model etc is already there, but, as someone else already posted, to add new functionality is not always as simple as the click of a button...
This is especially so when adding new functionality which has never before been considered, such as the premise of a ship scaling in level with the player... This would require alot more coding than simply ticking a box, this is especially valid here as that box never existed before...
As I have also stated, Delta Rising would have cost Cryptic considerable time and money to develop... The technology to allow ship scaling would have also cost them time and money, yet people are demonstrating an 'entitlement mentality' by refusing to acknowledge this fact and demanding they receive Cryptic's time and money for free because they purchased a ship, potentially years ago, which has just now been rendered obsolescent...
Let's be entirely honest here too... If Cryptic did offer free upgrades of T5.5 CStore ships, the next demand would be for free upgrades of that T2 Constellation all the way to T5.9, you know I'm right here...
It would open the floodgates and there is no way anyone can deny this...
Actually, that technology has existed since launch. Shuttles have scaling shield and hull HP modifiers that increase as you level. The most they would have had to do was modify that code slightly with different values for each ship in the "new" tier 5-U.
So, the entire thing is really just a copy and paste job with new database entries and a few variables changed around.
Without any of us knowing the structure of the database, it's merely presumption that it's a simple 'copy and paste' task...
However, I do stand corrected on ship HP and shield scaling being a new technology in of itself... Don't forget however that there is also the ship 'mastery' which is yet to be fully explained... This is also relevant to T5U ships...
With the TRIBBLE job EA does they need to give the packs away free. After all, EA's motto is, if it's not broke, break it, charge for it, then break it some more. Sims 3 still has bugs in it, real game breaking bugs that have been around since it was released then you add all the packs and the games almost unplayable because of all the bugs and their response is Sims 4? Yeah, sure that's going to run better. A pack of trained chimps could do a better job than them. And then theres their mmo game Battlefield Heros, you better be using hacks to cheat with because if your just a regular player playing the game you'll get kicked off by punkbuster.
When you buy a physical product, you first note the physical problem, and then identify something that you think will fix the problem. So for example, you don't want to wash dishes by hand, so you identify that you want a dishwasher, then you identify you want the "Model X", and you buy that model as the solution to your problem.
When you buy a virtual product, you identify as per for a physical product, but you identify the issue, and then identify the solution in terms of its effects, rather than in terms of its characteristics. For example, you identify you want an "End Game Ship", so purchase a ship that is "End Game". You'll see people saying "What's the best X in game?" rather than "What ships give me X boff slots, Y console slots" - this is an example of the identified problem and presumed solution. In virtual terms, it's "best" rather than "features". In physical purchases, people who want "The Best Car" will be upset with their purchase the second some other car has something their car doesn't. Same thing, but I suspect it's more prevalent in virtual purchases as you're not purchasing a physical thing but rather a set of features.
The release of T6 means that people bought T5 ships, but not in terms of what T5 possessed but in terms of "T5 = top of line". T6 means that T5 will no longer be "Top of line". Thus, people are upset and demanding an upgrade to their purchase, to move it back into what they purchased, namely a Top of Line ship rather than a T5 ship.
There's also the matter of tier 5 itself being monetized to the extreme, between the exorbitant Fleet Credit cost for 9-console retrofits of leveling ships and Fleet Ship Modules only unlocking refits on a per character basis. Frankly, I don't think it's much of a leap to understand why people feel that this upgrade scheme is a slap in the face.
In all honesty, since T4 ships can hold their own in current ESTF's, they should be sufficient for all story content at the very least... As far as level 60 Elites, untill we know more about options for ships, who knows...
I will speculate however that, given the information at hand, the difference between a level 40 ship and a level 60 ship will be a moderate difference in HP and Shield strength and 1 or 2 consoles less, so really, the difference won't be that extreme... Yes, they won't be able to take as big a hit as a T6 or T5.9 ship, and will do moderately less DPS, but overall, they should still get the job done - especially if the player is capable...
The capabilities of the player are particularly relevant given I have seen people in Scimitars who struggle to get above 5k DPS presently... An upgraded Scimitar with a poor player behind it is still gonna perform poorly...
For all we know, come DR, there might be some form of token system at 50 like there was for previous 'rank ups', but until we know more, there's little point speculating on this really...
You do not have ownership of and may not sell, transfer, trade or auction any Accounts, characters, items, coin, Zen or Proprietary Materials
We may charge fees to access and acquire certain game items or participate in game activities through the Service and may allow the purchase of in game “points” that may be applied to the purchase of in game items or activities (“Zen”). After the purchase you will directly have the right to use Zen and be able to it in the way as is stipulated
- http://www.arcgames.com/en/about/terms
Bye.
going back to your IPhone analogy, suppose you bought an IPhone and your mate won one for free in a competition or was given one for free then a year later they bought out a software update that would make the IPhone much better but heres the catch you have to pay for your update but your mate gets his update for free.
there was no mention when you bought the IPhone that any updates would need to be paid for and no mention in your friends prize that all updates would be free, why should you have to pay for your update when your mate gets a free update just cos he got his phone for free.
the case im trying to make is if you give free upgrades to one or in this case a multitude of ones you should give it to all.
agreed if all the ships that are getting the free t5u upgrade as is and the ones that were having to pay got a full upgrade to t6 I would be fine with that, as it is might as well not bother paying to upgrade better to buy a t6 instead.
theres no full detail yet but im guessing if I pay to upgrade all my c-store ships it will cost me about $150.
and as I said that would not bother me at all if all the upgrades were free.
that's fine for tier 6 ships I have no problem with them or t7 t8 or t9 if they ever appear, it would not even have bothered me if they said heres t6 no upgrades for t5 so live with it.
what bothers me is they are saying you paid for your ship now pay again for an upgrade, but you other lot can get a free upgrade.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Let me see if I can answer the spirit of your question.
First a digital product and a physical one in this case you get what you agreed upon. No more, and if you get less then you make a legitimate complaint. Example would be if the servers went down for several days. You get your bill prorated for the lost days, any event running at the time of the outage extended so that the bargain is upheld. That fulfills the agreement stated.
There are a few unstateds that people come up with however. One is something I have gotten ridicule over. The T1 Connie or NX. "Why bother having those they are only T1 and you will out level them too fast to be of use. Save your money for endgame and get the real product." Usually with a bit more condesention but I assume you get the gist. Players that bought the 'endgame' gear feel they now have 'wasted' their time and money as the goal posts for 'top of the line' and 'end game' have moved. They take it as a personal assault on them and demand either that the goal posts not move or that they get a free upgrade. Because they believe they bought the now and eternal 'best'. What is not shown however is where it was ever said that these would always be the endgame and best.
Note the ire that came with each new ship released or lock box ship. Many were vocal about how it disturbed the status quo. And why should they support yet another money grab. Because they wish things to remain as they are indefinitely with them having been right in their purchases and decisions. It vindicates them. Altering the status quo makes them wrong and wronged and is seen as a personal attack on them. It is up to you to decide if they are right or not.
I hope this answers your question.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
When you buy a physical product, you purchase actual physical material in a particular configuration.
When you buy a digital product, you purchase the ability to access a particular part of the code. You don't actually own the code that generates the product. You don't really own anything besides the ability to access an in-game feature. Notice I didn't use the words "right to access" because if you violate EULA and TOS, they can just take it away like that.
This is why it really makes no sense when people demand a refund when their ship gets nerfed. Their access to the ship has not changed in any way. In the same vein, upgraded T5 ships are considered a separate product and not a change to the existing product. If they want to charge for access to those ships, there's not much room to argue. This is the current framework in which the sale of digital goods operates. Now, if you feel that the framework ought to change, that's a different discussion and quite frankly not really determined by any individual. It will be determined by the market as a whole.
Now as for why they're charging for T5 ships, it's probably due to the fact that they already expect T6 ships not to sell to everyone. They know that some people don't want Cryptic designed ships, and if they gave you the T5 upgrades for free on all ships, the sales for T6 ships would be even worse. Charging for T5 will increase T6 ship sales because there will be a portion of people that say "T5 upgrades aren't worth the price. I might as well buy a T6 ship." This is a sentiment I already see in this very thread, and therefore, to them, mission accomplished.
Because in the game itself a starship is considered a physical object. Sure in the real world it is nothing more than just bits of data, but through the eyes of your digital avatar, a starship is a physical object.
Is it your digital avatar that's paying up though? It's a real life player that's purchasing the product. Perhaps you're right in that this is the reason why people see them as the same, but they fundamentally aren't.
Yep, this is it in a nut shell.
I really don't understand why this forum is getting so much attention for, it's really easy to understand and, it's spell out nicely in their terms and conditions.
Physical = you own the physicality of side product. In terms of software however, you only own the physical stuff to it, but not the software itself.
Digital = you don't own at all, and Cryptic and/or PWE can change or remove it or do whatever to said digital product. You only have the permission to use the said digital property.
Another words, the ships in this game, you'll never own no matter what, it's Cryptic and PWE. You just have the rights to use said ship.
New t6 ships come out. You cannot still use your old t5 ship in the same way you intended to use it when you purchased it because everyone else is getting t6 (pvp) and content is getting harder (pve).
That said, I'm not up in arms about this. But I think it's silly to make a inept comparison and then whine when no one responds to it.
Thank you for posting this. I think the best way to put it in layman's terms is that when you make a C-Store purchase, you aren't actually buying anything, you are licensing it. You agreed to the license when you started playing the game. The license says that they own whatever you licensed, they are letting you use it, and they can change it if they want, or take it away entirely if you violate the license.
It's even true of STO itself. Even if you bought a physical copy of the game, you also bought a license to use that product, and they can render it useless if you violate the license.
This is how most software and other digital purchases work. It sucks, but that's the way the world is going.
The relationship we have with Cryptic is that when we license something (either a C-Store item or the game itself), we are doing so in good faith that the item in question will never be altered to an unreasonable degree from the state in which it was purchased. So far, I believe that they are still operating within that good faith, but my definition of "unreasonable" may be different than yours.
Inept comparison? Really? This is odd considering you hit the nail on the head in your first line when it came to the point I was making... You can still use existing ships, even after Delta Rising and they will fulfill the exact same purpose your purchased them for albeit, like an older model phone, just not as well as the newest model...
People bought ships which, due to Delta Rising, are no longer best in slot... Does that mean they are suddenly useless? Absolutely not, they will still do exactly the same job they did before... Does it mean someone else might have something better, yes it does, this is a simple fact of life with any new release of any product...
So far though, there is no indication that they will immediately be rendered useless, much like your older IPhone... They will still do the same job as they do now...
And please don't even suggest that they will be suddenly rendered useless in any new content... Firstly, we don't know what PVE content is coming and given that Cryptic's interpretation of 'Elite' content is quite moderate in difficulty compared to many MMO's, it's unlikely a T5 will be unable to do level 60 content - T4's are more than capable of doing current Elites...
As far as PVP is concerned, T6 will have an advantage yes, but again, it does not mean they will instantly be rendered ineffective as the difference between T5 and T6 (based on the information at hand), appears to be moderate at best and possibly even not that different from some of the variation between current T5 ships designs...
As far as 'whining when no one responds', a very inept insult if ever I saw one given the whole point of the bump was to try and motivate exactly what ensued, discussion about why physical and digital products are perceived differently...
Perhaps my comparison to an IPhone was not so inept afterall and purely intentional for this reason... I could have opened up with an analogy to Steam (as I raised later) but wanted to use a comparison to a physical item in my opening post to generate comment...
Here's the thing... those ships have to become useless... at the very least when they realize people aren't going to pay another 1000 Zen on top of the 5000 Zen they already spend or the 6500 Zen (Unless Cryptic wants their very own riot that has to be the minimum price of a T6 3-Ship Bundle to even make a wee bit of sense) for a T6 Pack.
So the very notion of "Hey, just pay some more" is the thing, at least I, get a bit angry at them.
That the T6 Ships (at least the Fed ship) are a complete Design-Desaster is just the icing on the sh*t-cake and the very fact that the Upgrade to T5-U is in itself completely useless as the very key features are missing FOR THAT PRICE is nothing less than the Devs Mooning the Playerbase from behind bulletproof glass.
What should be done is that AT LEAST those that purchased a 5000 Zen Ship Pack should be able to have their Set be upgraded to FULL T6 if they still insist on charging that much.
Edit: For emphasis as my rant might not be coherent enough for others to understand:
Making us pay twice for a ship to just get a useless and inferior abomination is bad! Full T6 Upgrade at least on 3-Ship Packs and get us a real Trek Design for the new T6 Ships and not this "Tron Online" TRIBBLE.
Lockbox and Fleet/10 console ships will get the same upgraded stats.
I will post this every time people spread this inferiority myth.
I disagree that this is a case of "digital product" versus "physical product". It's more a wider argument about what we should define as a product, to begin with.
As someone who has created art assets for video games, I never had such hubris as to consider my creations a "product" in their own right. I certainly never thought my artwork alone warranted a price tag that - since the rise of Steam sales - most studios would struggle to sell an entire game for.
These just seemed like absurd notions to me at the time.
I could see how hard everyone else was working too, after all. Why should my work be more valuable than theirs - or, indeed, the end product itself? Those were my thoughts.
Perhaps it's just easier to see it this way when you're right in the thick of it. Who knows?
Of course, customers can set the goalposts wherever they want. That is how supply and demand works, after all.
Just don't ask me to understand why they choose to set the bar where they do, because I'm at a complete loss.
I suppose I am, as they say, "getting too old for this s***".