The Galaxy came into implementation in the late 2350s. The Sovereign in the early 2370s. The Sovereign is almost 20 years newer then the galaxy. The Sovereigns first noted formal engagement was in 2379. It's far newer then the Galaxy and was built as the Federations most advanced ship of the time. It was the top of the line.
The USS Galaxy was comissioned 2357, that's true. We don't know, however, when the USS Sovereign was comissioned, but it most likely predated the Enterprise-E's launch (no fact to support one or the other, though, that's just deduction based on the very detailed concept and manufacturing schedule we have about the Ent-D. The class' prototype has to predate her sister ships, logically, and the planning of the Galaxy Class Project and assembling of the Ent-D took 20 years. One can assume that the Sovereign Project was initiated around the time the Galaxy was comissioned.). The USS Enterpise-D launched in 2363, the Enterprise-E in 2370. That's seven years.
As was the overall function of the vessel. Comparing the Intrepid to the Galaxy is like comparing the Defiant to the Sovereign, they're totally different animals. The Sovereign and the Galaxy however, are not.
According to the intrepid, that's what I said. According to the Sovereign I don't share your view, as the Galaxy has vastly different specs than the Sovereign. You wouldn't send one to do the other's job.
The 8 year thing was wrong, it was closer to 20 years. The Sovereign was an obviously more advanced design and would make little sense for the Federation to continue using the Galaxy as it's flagship vessel when they had a more advanced ship that was in full production. On this point though, sadly we have to just agree to disagree since no formal statement has ever been made on this topic. To me, it's common sense that the newer and more advanced ship would be the flagship. It's further proven by the fact that the Enterprise which is the Federation Flagship is a Sovereign Class. If this wasn't true, the Enterprise E would have been a Galaxy Refit much like the Enterprise A was over the original design. Precedent is established on this.
Where are you taking the 20 years thing from? With the rest you are right, though, we disagree on this one. More advanced doesn't qualify for the flagship, when the Excelsior launched the enterprise didn't retire. the Enterprise-B was comissioned further down the road.
They have shown you're almost right on the size issue. You're completely wrong in every other aspect and it's obvious.
Not very obvious to me, at least
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I did always wonder why no Sovereign-class starships were seen leading the charge in any of the major offensives during the Dominion War.
In-universe by the time of the Dominion war there was only a small number of Sovereigns comissioned. The Ent-E saw action when the majority of the fighting was done already, Picard and his crew chased around to push out "brush fires" (that's, by the way, what the line "Remember wehen we used to be explorers?" is supposed to hint at, NOT at the fact that they are superbad warfighters now ).
Out-of-universe, Paramount didn't want the Sovereign used in the shows, it should be exclusive to the movies so people would recognize it better.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The Galaxy came into implementation in the late 2350s. The Sovereign in the early 2370s. The Sovereign is almost 20 years newer then the galaxy. The Sovereigns first noted formal engagement was in 2379. It's far newer then the Galaxy and was built as the Federations most advanced ship of the time. It was the top of the line.
The rest of your post regarding ship blind spots or whatever you're talking about is just opinion and largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
You can read more info on the Sovereign class here, and the Galaxy here.
As was the overall function of the vessel. Comparing the Intrepid to the Galaxy is like comparing the Defiant to the Sovereign, they're totally different animals. The Sovereign and the Galaxy however, are not.
The 8 year thing was wrong, it was closer to 20 years. The Sovereign was an obviously more advanced design and would make little sense for the Federation to continue using the Galaxy as it's flagship vessel when they had a more advanced ship that was in full production. On this point though, sadly we have to just agree to disagree since no formal statement has ever been made on this topic. To me, it's common sense that the newer and more advanced ship would be the flagship. It's further proven by the fact that the Enterprise which is the Federation Flagship is a Sovereign Class. If this wasn't true, the Enterprise E would have been a Galaxy Refit much like the Enterprise A was over the original design. Precedent is established on this.
They have shown you're almost right on the size issue. You're completely wrong in every other aspect and it's obvious.
there's a big difference between the very start of a development project and the actual role out of the initial examples of the class. its kinda sad that not even memory alpha can keep those facts strait. introduced? wrong, its all right there in the tech manual. its right there in the show even, the first season of TNG takes place in 2364, in the brand new enterprise, the 2nd or 3rd ship of her class.
the galaxy class launched in very late 2363, it was the development that kicked off in the 2350s. its likely sovereign development began even before the galaxy finally launched, it probably took at least 10 years to develop a ship that size. only the defiant was truly built as a direct result of the borg. a big expensive general purpose cruiser is not an intelligent response to fighting the borg, only a swarm of defiant would be. thats not to say the borg and dominion threat had no influence on it's last round of development.
more advanced means its got a mk1 EMH and all the basic mature tech the ship is made up from is incrementally more advanced, but not by some astounding margin, hardly advanced enough to make the sov more powerful at any point in its existence. all the tech the sov came with then was immediately added to the refit parts bin of everything in the fleet, they didn't keep the galaxy locked in 2363 spec, there were constant upgrades mentioned in tng. any galaxy's built or refit in the 2370 would come with the same tech, and be twice as big, have twice as many emitters in their main arrays, and have the burst fire torp launchers that the sovereign with all its much less capable launchers could only hope to match in potentual output.
no one ever even officially called the E-E the flagship ether. making the new enterprise a soverign class proves nothing anyway, more of a timing thing. the E-D was destroyed, and this new impressive and advanced class was about to be launched, why not name one enterprise. i doubt they would trust that crew with another galaxy.
as far as size goes, it would take an akira, and sovereign to just barely exceed the volume of a galaxy saucer alone. they are in an entirely different weight class, by volume its exactly 2.3 times the sov's size.
arguing that the sovereign is more powerful then the galaxy is like saying a cruiser class launched in the 1940s is more powerful then a battleship class launched in the 1930s. its preposterous
the galaxy class launched in very late 2363, it was the development that kicked off in the 2350s. its likely sovereign development began even before the galaxy finally launched, it probably took at least 10 years to develop a ship that size. only the defiant was truly built as a direct result of the borg. a big expensive general purpose cruiser is not an intelligent response to fighting the borg, only a swarm of defiant would be. thats not to say the borg and dominion threat had no influence on it's last round of development.
(...)
I agree with you completely, just one little thing: The USS Galaxy was deemed fit for duty in 2357, he is right with his 2350s. But I think he made two mistakes: 2350s doesn't mean "2350" (in fact 2357) and the Ent-E was not the first Sovereign, the USS Sovereign probably launched earlier in a comparable timespan between the Galaxy and the Enterprise-D, maybe around one or two years shorter.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I agree with you completely, just one little thing: The USS Galaxy was deemed fit for duty in 2357, he is right with his 2350s. But I think he made two mistakes: 2350s doesn't mean "2350" (in fact 2357) and the Ent-E was not the first Sovereign, the USS Sovereign probably launched earlier in a comparable timespan between the Galaxy and the Enterprise-D, maybe around one or two years shorter.
during those years the uss galaxy was made a rolling prototype as soon as it was space worthy, it was not used for active duty and was only partially complete in the 50s. it was probably the same for the USS sovereign too. it took 20 years to build those first few galaxys because they could only be built as quickly as all the tech intended for them could be invented, they were bleeding edge at launch. the nebula class was launched in those years though, once the basic structure of the galaxy was locked down, they likely kitbashed the components into a configuration that best worked with the current gen tech.
Well although not built directly to counter the Borg it's undeniable she had to be build with new advances to combat the borg.
It's been speculated the Sovereign class ships had regenerative shields and ablative armor. It's also been speculated that Galaxy's received ablative armor refits around key areas as well though not complete coverage.
Now did the Sovereign replace the Galaxy? ?? I believe it did and this is why. Yes the Sovereign is designed around a different mission profile than the Galaxy. But up until that point the Galaxy was filling the role of Boarder and Internal Guard the Federation.
The Galaxy was designed for long range exploration but it never got to go on the "5 year mission" beyond Federation boarders. It's always called back and on the Romulan front or Cardassian front etc...used for internal defense. Yes the Ent-D got to explore but not as intended.
So Starfleet needs a ship with even greater firepower and survivability but still take care of exploration mission but not at extended range for extended periods of time. We get the Sovereign.
To be fair, even Kirk's Enterprise did called back to do various things outside of the mandated 5 year exploration mission. Wargames (M-5 fiasco) to even being the at the forefront of Starfleet with the Federation & Klingon Empire at the brink of war (Organia). They even did the 'ol Diplomat Taxi Service (intro of Spock's parents).
To be fair, even Kirk's Enterprise did called back to do various things outside of the mandated 5 year exploration mission. Wargames (M-5 fiasco) to even being the at the forefront of Starfleet with the Federation & Klingon Empire at the brink of war (Organia). They even did the 'ol Diplomat Taxi Service (intro of Spock's parents).
This is right, every ship has to perform a lot of tasks, though it is true the ENt-D never really got into deep-space exploration as per their mission mandate. I think the UFP and Starfleet liked to have the flagship be near and "flex muscles" from time to time
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
This is right, every ship has to perform a lot of tasks, though it is true the ENt-D never really got into deep-space exploration as per their mission mandate. I think the UFP and Starfleet liked to have the flagship be near and "flex muscles" from time to time
The reputation built up by the different Enterprise ships and their crews seems to do that. By the time of TNG, there was short arc "Best of Both Worlds" where Cmdr Shelby asked Cmdr Riker if duty on the Enterprise was as exciting as they say it was :cool: Of course, the flip side to that was in "Final Frontier" where the Klingon BOP captain was intent on destroying Kirk and the Enterprise. Accomplishing that would make him the greatest warrior and it showed even Kirk's and the Enterprise name meant something to their enemies. He wasn't after Genesis or some fancy thing to capture, not on an official mission by the KDF. He chanced upon the Enterprise and the opportunity for glory and recognition by taking it out was taken.
Which made the beginning of First Contact kind of interesting. You have Picard, his experienced crew, and the brand spanking new Sovereign-class USS Enterprise-E sent away to look at gaseous anomalies while the heart of the Federation was threatened by the Borg
Which made the beginning of First Contact kind of interesting. You have Picard, his experienced crew, and the brand spanking new Sovereign-class USS Enterprise-E sent away to look at gaseous anomalies while the heart of the Federation was threatened by the Borg
I believe that was due to Starfleet still concerned he might have leftover Borg "feelings" or elements after having been assimilated for a short time just prior to his new command. Which wouldn't bode well if he attempted to offer up the newest starship to the Borg for assimilation.
He clearly had enough left to hear the Borg frequencies, and enough memories of his time to recall a weakspot. And almost got the ship assimilated and turned into a new Queen ship regardless.
Now that I think about it; it would be neat to go up against a Borg "Queen Ship" Sovereign helmed by a Borg Picard.
I believe that was due to Starfleet still concerned he might have leftover Borg "feelings" or elements after having been assimilated for a short time just prior to his new command. Which wouldn't bode well if he attempted to offer up the newest starship to the Borg for assimilation.
He clearly had enough left to hear the Borg frequencies, and enough memories of his time to recall a weakspot. And almost got the ship assimilated and turned into a new Queen ship regardless.
Now that I think about it; it would be neat to go up against a Borg "Queen Ship" Sovereign helmed by a Borg Picard.
If Starfleet was that concerned with Picard lapsing into Locutus while the Federation was still concerned about the Borg poking around, then they were stupid to assign him command of Starfleet's hottest new vessel.
But, it's best not to dwell on the technicalities.
I recall reading somewhere that the Sovereign was actually a design that the engineers kept on file as an emergency cruiser design that was updated periodically with the latest developments.
I also recall that the Sovereign herself was launched around 2369-2370 but was kept drydocked for several years due to problems with not-quite-ready-systems, problems that weren't really worked out until after the E had launched with slightly less ambitious systems fitted.*
To me, the Sovereign class is more analogous to the current "Avenger" class boats in concept than she ever was to the Galaxy class. The Galaxy is imo, closer to the Oddy. You wouldn't say that the Avenger is close to an Oddy now, would you?
*Note, this was taken from Bridge commander. Non canon, but I think it fits pretty well. BC has been referenced at least twice in STO too iirc. The Geronimo and the 73811 that used to be around ESD.
The Galaxy was designed to accommodate it's crew AND families for long term exploration missions. So the ship had schools for children, racquetball court, fencing room, theater, salon, holodecks, Arboretum, ect.
In that time they were no Romulans present, no borg, no dominion, lasting peace between the Federation and the Klingon empire. The Federation-Cadassian war was just Small skirmishes at that time.
This changed after Worlf 359 and later conflicts. Starfleet realized that it was not a so good idea to bring families aboard starships. Just imagine the confusion and chaos among civilians if the borg or Jem'hadar boarded the ship...or any emergencies.
With problems with the borg, the dominion, romulans, cardassians...Starfleet probably realized that they need more than 6-12 Galaxy class.
Then, with no more need to accommodate families, something that needed to be build faster and take less resources, less complex and a little more tactical oriented to face the threat. So they made the Sovereign to complement the Galaxy.
Technically; all those same facilities intended for families makes Galaxy classes a great troop transport and temporary mobile base of operations when establishment of a proper base planetside or in orbit is unfeasible. Just keep beaming down MACO reinforcements.
Or even a decent ship hijacker. Take down shields, beam over (or shuttle over) plenty of boarding parties, and forcibly claim a new ship as part of a temporary fleet or assault force.
Of course, that's provided that Starfleet ever really bothered with proper on-foot troops for wars rather than just station/ship security.
Still, it would also make a nice recreational place for fleets away for long periods of time; IIRC, the Omega Task Force is one example; with a Galaxy or two and a bunch of smaller or more utilitarian ships that wouldn't otherwise have such luxuries/amenities for such long deployments.
Man, PvPers are whom I feel for the most about this. You guys have a legit reason to complain about the current power ceiling. And that's even before considering the issues PvPers had already in STO.
I totally agree, pvp has been the red headed stepchild of this game for a long time. What are the choices? Capture the flag or flog the enemy in a mostly vapid environment. Give me a SWG Restuss in starships and that would be a good start.
The Galaxy was designed to accommodate it's crew AND families for long term exploration missions. So the ship had schools for children, racquetball court, fencing room, theater, salon, holodecks, Arboretum, ect.
In that time they were no Romulans present, no borg, no dominion, lasting peace between the Federation and the Klingon empire. The Federation-Cadassian war was just Small skirmishes at that time.
This changed after Worlf 359 and later conflicts. Starfleet realized that it was not a so good idea to bring families aboard starships. Just imagine the confusion and chaos among civilians if the borg or Jem'hadar boarded the ship...or any emergencies.
With problems with the borg, the dominion, romulans, cardassians...Starfleet probably realized that they need more than 6-12 Galaxy class.
Then, with no more need to accommodate families, something that needed to be build faster and take less resources, less complex and a little more tactical oriented to face the threat. So they made the Sovereign to complement the Galaxy.
ah the typical galaxy design gross misconceptions. the galaxy class was not designed to be a family hauler, nearly 70% of it's internal volume is completely modular, to be configured as they saw fit. in the case of the E-D, it was to be a gilded flagship, the ideals of the federation distilled into starship form. it was a flying embassy and research facility, fully staffed by the crew and their families, it was not set up to be a military command ship.
dispite that, it spent most of its time posturing near the romulan neutral zone, then moving to the DMZ only after the cardasian war ended. seeing as the class was so new, big, untested and complex, it should be no surprise that they weren't immediately sent off on 20 year long deep space exploration missions. they probably wanted to break them in and work out all the bugs and see how that civilion thing worked out for a decade before sending them off, but that all got interrupted by the dominion war.
in yesterdays's enterprise, thanks to the modular nature of the class you see the enterprise configured completely differently, full of troops, optimized for combat, its defensive systems not bogged down by 100 or so laboratories running experiments. the fact that so much of a galaxy's interior was modular was probably the key to being able to construct so many decontented, purely for battle hulls in the lead up to the dominion war. no other class mounted such large scale phasers or high burst torp launchers or wile having near the damage soak. they were the anchor to every fleet battle you saw them in.
and it was not designed and built in some time of peace ether, the cardasian war was not just a handful of skirmishes, it was a multi decade hot war that was on more often then it was off. half the characters in ds9 and voyager have stories to tell of them fighting in it, it was no joke. there was also a tzenkethi war, sicko mentioned fighting in the last one, implying there had been multiple. there was even a tholian war, where an entire starbase was lost. all this took place during the galaxy class's development, this was not some era of peace and complacency, and the galaxy was designed to be a more then capable battleship when it needed to be. in typical starfleet fashion, it was also much more.
ah the typical galaxy design gross misconceptions. the galaxy class was not designed to be a family hauler, nearly 70% of it's internal volume is completely modular, to be configured as they saw fit. in the case of the E-D, it was to be a gilded flagship, the ideals of the federation distilled into starship form. it was a flying embassy and research facility, fully staffed by the crew and their families, it was not set up to be a military command ship.
dispite that, it spent most of its time posturing near the romulan neutral zone, then moving to the DMZ only after the cardasian war ended. seeing as the class was so new, big, untested and complex, it should be no surprise that they weren't immediately sent off on 20 year long deep space exploration missions. they probably wanted to break them in and work out all the bugs and see how that civilion thing worked out for a decade before sending them off, but that all got interrupted by the dominion war.
in yesterdays's enterprise, thanks to the modular nature of the class you see the enterprise configured completely differently, full of troops, optimized for combat, its defensive systems not bogged down by 100 or so laboratories running experiments. the fact that so much of a galaxy's interior was modular was probably the key to being able to construct so many decontented, purely for battle hulls in the lead up to the dominion war. no other class mounted such large scale phasers or high burst torp launchers or wile having near the damage soak. they were the anchor to every fleet battle you saw them in.
and it was not designed and built in some time of peace ether, the cardasian war was not just a handful of skirmishes, it was a multi decade hot war that was on more often then it was off. half the characters in ds9 and voyager have stories to tell of them fighting in it, it was no joke. there was also a tzenkethi war, sicko mentioned fighting in the last one, implying there had been multiple. there was even a tholian war, where an entire starbase was lost. all this took place during the galaxy class's development, this was not some era of peace and complacency, and the galaxy was designed to be a more then capable battleship when it needed to be. in typical starfleet fashion, it was also much more.
Don'tDrunk is right - the Galaxy was designed during a period of heightened conflicts and outright wars to be a very modular, very powerful ship. 70% of the saucer is empty most of the time - this empty space can be reconfigured for specialty missions very quickly and easily. This extra space can be extra power supplies and shield generators for heavy combat (Chains of Command), Troop Transport (most of the Dominion War) fieliding six THOSUAND troops and their munitions and supplies, evacuation and support. Though it isn't canon - it could also carry more fighters then anything but a dedicated carrier - which you'll note Starfleet doesn't have.
She's not a 'pretty embassy' ship. She's called an 'explorer' for the same reason the Defiant is an 'escort'. Starfleet doesn't like the words "Battleship" or "Destroyer".
As to the Galaxy in STO - the spaceframe was designed for a minmum of a hundred years of life with heavy refits every 20 years. By 2410 - she would barely be in her second major refit. The only reason the Odyssey was destroyed is because the Jem'hadar kamikazed it - she held her own with no shields and was still capable of fighting and withdrawing. The only reason the Enterprise was lost is because they wanted a flashier ship for the big screen - a more action oriented ship.
Don'tDrunk is right - the Galaxy was designed during a period of heightened conflicts and outright wars to be a very modular, very powerful ship. 70% of the saucer is empty most of the time - this empty space can be reconfigured for specialty missions very quickly and easily. This extra space can be extra power supplies and shield generators for heavy combat (Chains of Command), Troop Transport (most of the Dominion War) fieliding six THOSUAND troops and their munitions and supplies, evacuation and support. Though it isn't canon - it could also carry more fighters then anything but a dedicated carrier - which you'll note Starfleet doesn't have.
She's not a 'pretty embassy' ship. She's called an 'explorer' for the same reason the Defiant is an 'escort'. Starfleet doesn't like the words "Battleship" or "Destroyer".
As to the Galaxy in STO - the spaceframe was designed for a minmum of a hundred years of life with heavy refits every 20 years. By 2410 - she would barely be in her second major refit. The only reason the Odyssey was destroyed is because the Jem'hadar kamikazed it - she held her own with no shields and was still capable of fighting and withdrawing. The only reason the Enterprise was lost is because they wanted a flashier ship for the big screen - a more action oriented ship.
there should be no confusion as to why there will never be an end to galaxy threads until it gets a revamp worthy of its pedigree.
and that ody fight, people look at that and come away not impressed with the galaxy, at the very least they think it got super jobed, super hard. that whole battle was the finishing touch on a plan to insert an overt operative into the federation, to compliment all the covert changeling spys already present. thus when a federation ship finally fought a dominion ship, their shields were perfectly tuned to render phaser fire harmless, and their own weapons were totally unresistible by federation shields. despite this, the odyssey hull tanked those 2 attacking ships for upwards of 10 minutes, suffering only superficial damage, the bug ship weapons weren't even to the scale needed to properly harm standard galaxy class hull armor. it moved to disengage under its own power after that constant pounding, it took one of them crashing directly into its warp core to destroy it.
The Odyssey death was the exact same reason Worf gets bitchslapped by little old ladies. You HAVE to knock down the biggest, baddest, toughest thing on the show to properly show how dangerous the new bad guy is.
It's the Worf Trope - you HAVE to show how dangerous an unknown badguy is. Be this wiping out 20 redshirts, curbstomping Worf, or a suicide run on the Odyssey to show 'they have no fear of death and are really scary badguys!'
Yeah, the Galaxy-class was designed during a time when the Federation was in conflict with a number of opposing forces. Ongoing attacks from the Tholians, in a time known as "The Tholian Conflict", led to the destruction of one of Starfleet's huge Starbases in 2353. Starfleet Tactical would become preoccupied with the Tholians for years to come. This Tholian threat also continued well into the 2360's too, where it was feared that they would get involved in the Klingon Empire's internal conflicts.
Honestly - I think a fun change to the Galaxy class would be if your boff layout changed when you seperated. Keep the Galaxy the way it is now - but when saucer sep, swap the ltcom tac and ltcom eng stations.
Thanks for the clarification... I get it. For Five years the forums have been perpetrated by people with no association with an actual FLEET. My 26 year association with an actual FLEET, with a 250 year tradition has blinded me to the pomp and tradition of five years of gamer tradition. The fault lies entirely within myself.
I assume a SPERG LORD is a gamer slang, also started in the last five years, to refer to a man of great humility and justice. I shall immediately create an ALT and name him SPERG LORD in honor of this occasion.
Thank you also for the balance of your comments in this thread... I find your comments insightful and your arguements compelling.
these have been the acronyms used by everyone in this forum and in game to identify these station ranks. your about 5 years to late to try to critique this, and not look like a sperg lord.
______________________________
found references regarding gamer use of SPERGLORD on slang sites, quoted below:
"... usage on Encyclopedia Dramatica, Something Awful, and 4chan. A couple of years ago a video game called Sword of the Stars 2 was released prematurely, which made a lot of people angry. People from Something Awful came around to Kerberos Productions' forum (Kerberos being the company that made Sword of the Stars 2) and expressed rather vulgar insults that hinged on calling the lead designer a "sperglord" and anyone who didn't hate him "spergs."
Like the only times I've seen it used were in situations of intense hatred and anger..."
Thanks for the clarification... I get it. For Five years the forums have been perpetrated by people with no association with an actual FLEET. My 26 year association with an actual FLEET, with a 250 year tradition has blinded me to the pomp and tradition of five years of gamer tradition. The fault lies entirely within myself.
I assume a SPERG LORD is a gamer slang, also started in the last five years, to refer to a man of great humility and justice. I shall immediately create an ALT and name him SPERG LORD in honor of this occasion.
Thank you also for the balance of your comments in this thread... I find your comments insightful and your arguements compelling.
Top Definition- to have an infantile ****fit about something completely arbitrary
there is no more apt word to describe what your doing right now.
Your ignorance of actual military abbreviations and jargon is noted and appreciated. Continuation of thread side topic regarding slang is illogical, unless trolling. Thanks for trolling.
The balance of your comments, editorial input, and fictional factorids regarding GALAXY class is, however, appreciated. I will continue to follow your efforts with interest, and support the logic of your position.
Thank you for the logical or intellectual portions of your comments in this thread today.
Don'tDrunk is right - the Galaxy was designed during a period of heightened conflicts and outright wars to be a very modular, very powerful ship. 70% of the saucer is empty most of the time - this empty space can be reconfigured for specialty missions very quickly and easily. This extra space can be extra power supplies and shield generators for heavy combat (Chains of Command), Troop Transport (most of the Dominion War) fieliding six THOSUAND troops and their munitions and supplies, evacuation and support. Though it isn't canon - it could also carry more fighters then anything but a dedicated carrier - which you'll note Starfleet doesn't have.
She's not a 'pretty embassy' ship. She's called an 'explorer' for the same reason the Defiant is an 'escort'. Starfleet doesn't like the words "Battleship" or "Destroyer".
As to the Galaxy in STO - the spaceframe was designed for a minmum of a hundred years of life with heavy refits every 20 years. By 2410 - she would barely be in her second major refit. The only reason the Odyssey was destroyed is because the Jem'hadar kamikazed it - she held her own with no shields and was still capable of fighting and withdrawing. The only reason the Enterprise was lost is because they wanted a flashier ship for the big screen - a more action oriented ship.
And this is the reason why the Galaxy is such an Engineering-heavy ship. To deny going down easily, and to provide dedicated support.
And people thought Cryptic were crazy for making the Galaxy as Eng-heavy as it is, when after a long-winded discussion, we learn (or relearn) the reasons for why became obvious.
If Cryptic does release a T6 with a Lt. Tac/Hybrid and converts the Ensign Eng to Lt. Universal, it would keep the theme and allow for exactly that "modularity" (between whatever specialized seat you want for more support, or keeping it all Tac plus adding a second Tac in the Universal seat).
I agree with you completely, just one little thing: The USS Galaxy was deemed fit for duty in 2357, he is right with his 2350s. But I think he made two mistakes: 2350s doesn't mean "2350" (in fact 2357) and the Ent-E was not the first Sovereign, the USS Sovereign probably launched earlier in a comparable timespan between the Galaxy and the Enterprise-D, maybe around one or two years shorter.
it was luanched in 2357 but was not commissioned until 2362. according to the tech manual after going over it's first major refit to bring it up to spec with the then finished enterpise-d and the almost complete yamato
also the enterpise was the 3rd ship started but second one completed the manual states there was an issue with the yamato slowing it's completion so they took parts from it demonstrating how modular the ship design was being able to take sections of a ship and move them to another to finish the enterpise first then finished the yamato a month later after the enterpise's shake down cruise
Your ignorance of actual military abbreviations and jargon is noted and appreciated. Continuation of thread side topic regarding slang is illogical, unless trolling. Thanks for trolling.
The balance of your comments, editorial input, and fictional factorids regarding GALAXY class is, however, appreciated. I will continue to follow your efforts with interest, and support the logic of your position.
Thank you for the logical or intellectual portions of your comments in this thread today.
this is not a wet navy geek out forum, you are honestly the first person ive seen in all this time try to correct the long established player base slang for ranks. i wouldn't go on some navy forum and sperg about the galaxy like i am here on a star trek forum for a star trek game. pick your battles, especially were you have them.
and you initiated this derail, or trolling, not me.
as far as the galaxy is concerned, assuming your not being sarcastic, it is a bit of a hobby to correctly rate starfleet ships based on every easy to overlook canon detail, and extrapolate from there, apply heavy doses of logic, to finally get to the 'truth' about them, not just go with the typical fan boy opinions of things.
Comments
The USS Galaxy was comissioned 2357, that's true. We don't know, however, when the USS Sovereign was comissioned, but it most likely predated the Enterprise-E's launch (no fact to support one or the other, though, that's just deduction based on the very detailed concept and manufacturing schedule we have about the Ent-D. The class' prototype has to predate her sister ships, logically, and the planning of the Galaxy Class Project and assembling of the Ent-D took 20 years. One can assume that the Sovereign Project was initiated around the time the Galaxy was comissioned.). The USS Enterpise-D launched in 2363, the Enterprise-E in 2370. That's seven years.
According to the intrepid, that's what I said. According to the Sovereign I don't share your view, as the Galaxy has vastly different specs than the Sovereign. You wouldn't send one to do the other's job.
Where are you taking the 20 years thing from? With the rest you are right, though, we disagree on this one. More advanced doesn't qualify for the flagship, when the Excelsior launched the enterprise didn't retire. the Enterprise-B was comissioned further down the road.
Not very obvious to me, at least
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Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
In-universe by the time of the Dominion war there was only a small number of Sovereigns comissioned. The Ent-E saw action when the majority of the fighting was done already, Picard and his crew chased around to push out "brush fires" (that's, by the way, what the line "Remember wehen we used to be explorers?" is supposed to hint at, NOT at the fact that they are superbad warfighters now
Out-of-universe, Paramount didn't want the Sovereign used in the shows, it should be exclusive to the movies so people would recognize it better.
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there's a big difference between the very start of a development project and the actual role out of the initial examples of the class. its kinda sad that not even memory alpha can keep those facts strait. introduced? wrong, its all right there in the tech manual. its right there in the show even, the first season of TNG takes place in 2364, in the brand new enterprise, the 2nd or 3rd ship of her class.
the galaxy class launched in very late 2363, it was the development that kicked off in the 2350s. its likely sovereign development began even before the galaxy finally launched, it probably took at least 10 years to develop a ship that size. only the defiant was truly built as a direct result of the borg. a big expensive general purpose cruiser is not an intelligent response to fighting the borg, only a swarm of defiant would be. thats not to say the borg and dominion threat had no influence on it's last round of development.
more advanced means its got a mk1 EMH and all the basic mature tech the ship is made up from is incrementally more advanced, but not by some astounding margin, hardly advanced enough to make the sov more powerful at any point in its existence. all the tech the sov came with then was immediately added to the refit parts bin of everything in the fleet, they didn't keep the galaxy locked in 2363 spec, there were constant upgrades mentioned in tng. any galaxy's built or refit in the 2370 would come with the same tech, and be twice as big, have twice as many emitters in their main arrays, and have the burst fire torp launchers that the sovereign with all its much less capable launchers could only hope to match in potentual output.
no one ever even officially called the E-E the flagship ether. making the new enterprise a soverign class proves nothing anyway, more of a timing thing. the E-D was destroyed, and this new impressive and advanced class was about to be launched, why not name one enterprise. i doubt they would trust that crew with another galaxy.
as far as size goes, it would take an akira, and sovereign to just barely exceed the volume of a galaxy saucer alone. they are in an entirely different weight class, by volume its exactly 2.3 times the sov's size.
arguing that the sovereign is more powerful then the galaxy is like saying a cruiser class launched in the 1940s is more powerful then a battleship class launched in the 1930s. its preposterous
I agree with you completely, just one little thing: The USS Galaxy was deemed fit for duty in 2357, he is right with his 2350s. But I think he made two mistakes: 2350s doesn't mean "2350" (in fact 2357) and the Ent-E was not the first Sovereign, the USS Sovereign probably launched earlier in a comparable timespan between the Galaxy and the Enterprise-D, maybe around one or two years shorter.
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during those years the uss galaxy was made a rolling prototype as soon as it was space worthy, it was not used for active duty and was only partially complete in the 50s. it was probably the same for the USS sovereign too. it took 20 years to build those first few galaxys because they could only be built as quickly as all the tech intended for them could be invented, they were bleeding edge at launch. the nebula class was launched in those years though, once the basic structure of the galaxy was locked down, they likely kitbashed the components into a configuration that best worked with the current gen tech.
To be fair, even Kirk's Enterprise did called back to do various things outside of the mandated 5 year exploration mission. Wargames (M-5 fiasco) to even being the at the forefront of Starfleet with the Federation & Klingon Empire at the brink of war (Organia). They even did the 'ol Diplomat Taxi Service (intro of Spock's parents).
This is right, every ship has to perform a lot of tasks, though it is true the ENt-D never really got into deep-space exploration as per their mission mandate. I think the UFP and Starfleet liked to have the flagship be near and "flex muscles" from time to time
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The reputation built up by the different Enterprise ships and their crews seems to do that. By the time of TNG, there was short arc "Best of Both Worlds" where Cmdr Shelby asked Cmdr Riker if duty on the Enterprise was as exciting as they say it was :cool: Of course, the flip side to that was in "Final Frontier" where the Klingon BOP captain was intent on destroying Kirk and the Enterprise. Accomplishing that would make him the greatest warrior and it showed even Kirk's and the Enterprise name meant something to their enemies. He wasn't after Genesis or some fancy thing to capture, not on an official mission by the KDF. He chanced upon the Enterprise and the opportunity for glory and recognition by taking it out was taken.
Which made the beginning of First Contact kind of interesting. You have Picard, his experienced crew, and the brand spanking new Sovereign-class USS Enterprise-E sent away to look at gaseous anomalies while the heart of the Federation was threatened by the Borg
I believe that was due to Starfleet still concerned he might have leftover Borg "feelings" or elements after having been assimilated for a short time just prior to his new command. Which wouldn't bode well if he attempted to offer up the newest starship to the Borg for assimilation.
He clearly had enough left to hear the Borg frequencies, and enough memories of his time to recall a weakspot. And almost got the ship assimilated and turned into a new Queen ship regardless.
Now that I think about it; it would be neat to go up against a Borg "Queen Ship" Sovereign helmed by a Borg Picard.
If Starfleet was that concerned with Picard lapsing into Locutus while the Federation was still concerned about the Borg poking around, then they were stupid to assign him command of Starfleet's hottest new vessel.
But, it's best not to dwell on the technicalities.
I also recall that the Sovereign herself was launched around 2369-2370 but was kept drydocked for several years due to problems with not-quite-ready-systems, problems that weren't really worked out until after the E had launched with slightly less ambitious systems fitted.*
To me, the Sovereign class is more analogous to the current "Avenger" class boats in concept than she ever was to the Galaxy class. The Galaxy is imo, closer to the Oddy. You wouldn't say that the Avenger is close to an Oddy now, would you?
*Note, this was taken from Bridge commander. Non canon, but I think it fits pretty well. BC has been referenced at least twice in STO too iirc. The Geronimo and the 73811 that used to be around ESD.
The Galaxy was designed to accommodate it's crew AND families for long term exploration missions. So the ship had schools for children, racquetball court, fencing room, theater, salon, holodecks, Arboretum, ect.
In that time they were no Romulans present, no borg, no dominion, lasting peace between the Federation and the Klingon empire. The Federation-Cadassian war was just Small skirmishes at that time.
This changed after Worlf 359 and later conflicts. Starfleet realized that it was not a so good idea to bring families aboard starships. Just imagine the confusion and chaos among civilians if the borg or Jem'hadar boarded the ship...or any emergencies.
With problems with the borg, the dominion, romulans, cardassians...Starfleet probably realized that they need more than 6-12 Galaxy class.
Then, with no more need to accommodate families, something that needed to be build faster and take less resources, less complex and a little more tactical oriented to face the threat. So they made the Sovereign to complement the Galaxy.
Or even a decent ship hijacker. Take down shields, beam over (or shuttle over) plenty of boarding parties, and forcibly claim a new ship as part of a temporary fleet or assault force.
Of course, that's provided that Starfleet ever really bothered with proper on-foot troops for wars rather than just station/ship security.
Still, it would also make a nice recreational place for fleets away for long periods of time; IIRC, the Omega Task Force is one example; with a Galaxy or two and a bunch of smaller or more utilitarian ships that wouldn't otherwise have such luxuries/amenities for such long deployments.
I totally agree, pvp has been the red headed stepchild of this game for a long time. What are the choices? Capture the flag or flog the enemy in a mostly vapid environment. Give me a SWG Restuss in starships and that would be a good start.
ah the typical galaxy design gross misconceptions. the galaxy class was not designed to be a family hauler, nearly 70% of it's internal volume is completely modular, to be configured as they saw fit. in the case of the E-D, it was to be a gilded flagship, the ideals of the federation distilled into starship form. it was a flying embassy and research facility, fully staffed by the crew and their families, it was not set up to be a military command ship.
dispite that, it spent most of its time posturing near the romulan neutral zone, then moving to the DMZ only after the cardasian war ended. seeing as the class was so new, big, untested and complex, it should be no surprise that they weren't immediately sent off on 20 year long deep space exploration missions. they probably wanted to break them in and work out all the bugs and see how that civilion thing worked out for a decade before sending them off, but that all got interrupted by the dominion war.
in yesterdays's enterprise, thanks to the modular nature of the class you see the enterprise configured completely differently, full of troops, optimized for combat, its defensive systems not bogged down by 100 or so laboratories running experiments. the fact that so much of a galaxy's interior was modular was probably the key to being able to construct so many decontented, purely for battle hulls in the lead up to the dominion war. no other class mounted such large scale phasers or high burst torp launchers or wile having near the damage soak. they were the anchor to every fleet battle you saw them in.
and it was not designed and built in some time of peace ether, the cardasian war was not just a handful of skirmishes, it was a multi decade hot war that was on more often then it was off. half the characters in ds9 and voyager have stories to tell of them fighting in it, it was no joke. there was also a tzenkethi war, sicko mentioned fighting in the last one, implying there had been multiple. there was even a tholian war, where an entire starbase was lost. all this took place during the galaxy class's development, this was not some era of peace and complacency, and the galaxy was designed to be a more then capable battleship when it needed to be. in typical starfleet fashion, it was also much more.
Don'tDrunk is right - the Galaxy was designed during a period of heightened conflicts and outright wars to be a very modular, very powerful ship. 70% of the saucer is empty most of the time - this empty space can be reconfigured for specialty missions very quickly and easily. This extra space can be extra power supplies and shield generators for heavy combat (Chains of Command), Troop Transport (most of the Dominion War) fieliding six THOSUAND troops and their munitions and supplies, evacuation and support. Though it isn't canon - it could also carry more fighters then anything but a dedicated carrier - which you'll note Starfleet doesn't have.
She's not a 'pretty embassy' ship. She's called an 'explorer' for the same reason the Defiant is an 'escort'. Starfleet doesn't like the words "Battleship" or "Destroyer".
As to the Galaxy in STO - the spaceframe was designed for a minmum of a hundred years of life with heavy refits every 20 years. By 2410 - she would barely be in her second major refit. The only reason the Odyssey was destroyed is because the Jem'hadar kamikazed it - she held her own with no shields and was still capable of fighting and withdrawing. The only reason the Enterprise was lost is because they wanted a flashier ship for the big screen - a more action oriented ship.
there should be no confusion as to why there will never be an end to galaxy threads until it gets a revamp worthy of its pedigree.
and that ody fight, people look at that and come away not impressed with the galaxy, at the very least they think it got super jobed, super hard. that whole battle was the finishing touch on a plan to insert an overt operative into the federation, to compliment all the covert changeling spys already present. thus when a federation ship finally fought a dominion ship, their shields were perfectly tuned to render phaser fire harmless, and their own weapons were totally unresistible by federation shields. despite this, the odyssey hull tanked those 2 attacking ships for upwards of 10 minutes, suffering only superficial damage, the bug ship weapons weren't even to the scale needed to properly harm standard galaxy class hull armor. it moved to disengage under its own power after that constant pounding, it took one of them crashing directly into its warp core to destroy it.
It's the Worf Trope - you HAVE to show how dangerous an unknown badguy is. Be this wiping out 20 redshirts, curbstomping Worf, or a suicide run on the Odyssey to show 'they have no fear of death and are really scary badguys!'
Commanding Officer: Captain Pyotr Ramonovich Amosov
Dedication Plaque: "Nil Intentatum Reliquit"
I assume a SPERG LORD is a gamer slang, also started in the last five years, to refer to a man of great humility and justice. I shall immediately create an ALT and name him SPERG LORD in honor of this occasion.
Thank you also for the balance of your comments in this thread... I find your comments insightful and your arguements compelling.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sperg
Top Definition- to have an infantile ****fit about something completely arbitrary
there is no more apt word to describe what your doing right now.
Your ignorance of actual military abbreviations and jargon is noted and appreciated. Continuation of thread side topic regarding slang is illogical, unless trolling. Thanks for trolling.
The balance of your comments, editorial input, and fictional factorids regarding GALAXY class is, however, appreciated. I will continue to follow your efforts with interest, and support the logic of your position.
Thank you for the logical or intellectual portions of your comments in this thread today.
And people thought Cryptic were crazy for making the Galaxy as Eng-heavy as it is, when after a long-winded discussion, we learn (or relearn) the reasons for why became obvious.
If Cryptic does release a T6 with a Lt. Tac/Hybrid and converts the Ensign Eng to Lt. Universal, it would keep the theme and allow for exactly that "modularity" (between whatever specialized seat you want for more support, or keeping it all Tac plus adding a second Tac in the Universal seat).
it was luanched in 2357 but was not commissioned until 2362. according to the tech manual after going over it's first major refit to bring it up to spec with the then finished enterpise-d and the almost complete yamato
also the enterpise was the 3rd ship started but second one completed the manual states there was an issue with the yamato slowing it's completion so they took parts from it demonstrating how modular the ship design was being able to take sections of a ship and move them to another to finish the enterpise first then finished the yamato a month later after the enterpise's shake down cruise
this is not a wet navy geek out forum, you are honestly the first person ive seen in all this time try to correct the long established player base slang for ranks. i wouldn't go on some navy forum and sperg about the galaxy like i am here on a star trek forum for a star trek game. pick your battles, especially were you have them.
and you initiated this derail, or trolling, not me.
as far as the galaxy is concerned, assuming your not being sarcastic, it is a bit of a hobby to correctly rate starfleet ships based on every easy to overlook canon detail, and extrapolate from there, apply heavy doses of logic, to finally get to the 'truth' about them, not just go with the typical fan boy opinions of things.