The sovy=more combat is not based on any evidence, however. The only indicator is that the sovy shoots a lot in the later TNG action flicks. The ship must have been designed during the same time the Galaxy served ("peace"), it was labeled "Mark II Explorer" and, like you said, has basically the same mission profile albeit on a smaller scale. Picards explorer line doesn't mean they are a battleship know, it means they got sidelined doing dominion related peacekeeping duties all the years the Ent-E launched.
Galaxy is older the sov. What we can surmise is that she was launched in response to what was going on in the galaxy and what has happened to the Galaxy class. Think of it. we know 6 hulls were constructed in the first generation. 3 were comissioned: Galaxy, E-D, and Yamato. Yamato was lost and Odyssey was cmissioned to replace her. then Odyssey was lost, followed by the E-D. within 10 years over half of the 1st gen of Galaxy's lost. It's then we see the Veture with it's upgrades as a likely answer to some slight flaws in the Galaxy design and with rising chance of conflict Starfleet began making more tactical oriented ships and upgrading what they could of existing designs. Of known existing designs would be Venture and Lakota. of new all of the new ship classes seen in First Contact, all which clearly show a more tacical design. This is not to say they have a peace time use but rather starfleet adjusting their design style.
In essence Starfleetfrom TOS to post nemesis had 3 ages of design style. In TOS to Early TNG the bulk of their ship designs were an even military and science laid out. Minus specific ships like Oberth class they could easily shift between peace time and war footing with ease and needed to with the KDF and the RSE being potential enemies, with KDF as the main threat. However during ST6 we see the debate in Starfleet Command on the future of Starfleet with an actual peace treaty with the KDF. By early TNG we see the result. the Fed are in an alliance with the KDF, have a firm peace treaty with the RSE which they haven't heard from in decades. And while they had some conflicts they were likely equal to the first gulf war for the most part thus the Galaxy family of ships all lean more to exploration than combat. Again this is not to say they are weak but they aren't as powerful as they could be for again Starfleet was on the peace footing. however encountering the borg made them make their first ever true warship with the Defiant and then with the Dominion, strained relations with the KDF, Cardassians in turnmoil and the RSE active again Starfleet needed to rethink this stance, hence the return to the Defiant and the start of it's class productio9n. the jump start of more Galaxys then originally intended. and the star of the 3rd era. In the 3rd era we ships design for combat first peace time second. and thus Sov, Akira, Nova, Sare, Steamrunner, and Norway calsses. all more combat oriented then the last class family. Even at nemsis the sov wnet through a minor refit that increased it's combat abilites even further than before. But likely as time would have worn on i think Starfleet would have had gone back to the TOS style of even science and combat. The bulk of the DW Galaxys refited to venture stats and likely Ezxcel with the Lakota specs and the sovs like E-E moving into their secondary roles and peace time orientation. STo0 however mimics the timeline of All good things with Fed and KDF no longer allies. thus the continue slant of the the combat oreient style and hence why the Galaxy X now exists.
It's also canon that the Enterprise D shot more powerful phaser bursts from the torpedo tube!
And WAY more powerful burst from the deflector dish!
Why?
BC it's about power transfer from the warp core NOT array lengths.
PS you can write off the torpedo tube phaser they set up in that TNG episode (It made no sense to disable your photons right before an impending battle)
But you can't write off BOBW deflector burst. "Only part of the ship that was designed to CHANNEL that much POWER at controlled frequencies" Where did the power come from? Warp Core.
oh not this tech manual and visual canon denying BS again :rolleyes:
whats your deal with defectors? they were not built to be weapons, channel the maximum energy through them that you can, and they burn out. if they were intended to be weapons we would have seen them uses as such more then 1 jerry rigged time.
you seem confused about starship EPS systems. do you know what the warp core makes? plasma. the axillary and impulse fusion plants? plasma. both dump plasma into the system when needed, most likly the the warp core doing most of the work, and the impulse reactors only dumping plasma into the system when the M/AM core is offline, like what played out in nemisis. those fusion reactors aren't quite as fuel efficient or potent per gallon as a M/AM reaction, the enterprise was literally out of gas by the end of the fight.
so, im not really sure what your trying to get at. the EPS system may be a limiting factor to fire rate, it may be a large part of why some ships don't have longer arrays when they potentially could have if they changed some details. one thing about the galaxy class though, with its giant saucer, it will just have a ton of plasma near the array in the huge amount of conduits snaking through the saucer, with 2 impulse assemblies with multiple reactors close by as well.
There's also Geordi stating that a phaser would be more powerful if power levels to the single emitter are increased. An array's advantage is field of fire and precision. I like the idea DDIS voiced, though, that the wandering glow is some kind of power transfer that culminates in a high powered shot, yet there is neither TM nor on-screen evidence of that mechanic.
umm, are you blind? in every instance BUT nth degree, we see the moving glow effect before firing, there's none of this isolating emitter TRIBBLE ever before it, or ever again. it is the anomaly.
before all of the shots intended to be really powerful, there is a full array glow effect, and several other times only part of the array is involved for less powerful shots, for various reasons. it actually very consistent, especially when we get into the movies, DS9 and voyager with their superior effects. almost every battle you see the visual charge effect before firing, drawing power from each emitter and adding it to the power of each individual shot.
go ahead anyone, explain some other cause and effect for the moving glow effect, then the one spelled out in the tech manual, that i have explained ad nauseam here. i'll wait.
the argument for arrays only being long for firing arc carries no water. tiny arrays, huge arrays, whatever they have line of sight with, they can hit. if the huge and tiny arrays truly had the same firepower, installing more then just a spattering of tiny arrays on the saucer, arranged tos era style, would be downright insane. think of all the expense and waited space placing hundreds of redundant emitters and their pluming would be, it would be recklessly stupid. there HAS to be a GOOD reason for length, for the moving glow effect, for arrays not raining down the hell of 50 to 100 shots, instead of just 1. ive given you the reason, backed up by the visuals from the show, and tech manual. its air tight.
Maybe if we saw the entire array lit up and drained I would be more inclined to believe more of DDIS hypothesis but it does not. And as the shows progressed we see less and less of that glowing effect on arrays.
yoyager is a bit less then consistent, but voyager was always flying around really fast, they didn't zoom in on the ship sitting still firing the shot like they did in the other shows, it was all about ziping around, they probably figured you wouldn't notice. when it was made and aired in the late 90s, do you remember how big and boxy and NOT hi deff your tv was? NOW its hard to miss that kind of stuff, in 1080p
scenes like this illustrate the point well, here the ship wasn't moving fast, and the shot was of the ship fireing primarily, not ziping across the screen
this clip also shows that splitting an array 'arbitrarily' is not necessarily much of a disadvantage, when it fires them like this. for the record, those were probably the hottest shots we see them fire, with that slow moving precharge before firing. makes sense, its only shooting at the borg.
Galaxy is older the sov. What we can surmise is that she was launched in response to what was going on in the galaxy and what has happened to the Galaxy class. Think of it. we know 6 hulls were constructed in the first generation. 3 were comissioned: Galaxy, E-D, and Yamato. Yamato was lost and Odyssey was cmissioned to replace her. then Odyssey was lost, followed by the E-D. within 10 years over half of the 1st gen of Galaxy's lost. It's then we see the Veture with it's upgrades as a likely answer to some slight flaws in the Galaxy design and with rising chance of conflict Starfleet began making more tactical oriented ships and upgrading what they could of existing designs. Of known existing designs would be Venture and Lakota. of new all of the new ship classes seen in First Contact, all which clearly show a more tacical design. This is not to say they have a peace time use but rather starfleet adjusting their design style.
How comes?
Just because we saw those ships in one Battle, doesn't mean they where build for that.
It's like watching a Truck race and saying trucks where build for racing.
Many Trek fans WANT those ships to be more tactical focussed, but nothing on screen confirms that.
Also, as much as we know, Akira, Sabre, Norway and Steamrunner could be much older. I think it would be strange to have almost exclusively new ships in Earth proximity, fighting the surprisingly attacking Borg Cube.
In essence Starfleetfrom TOS to post nemesis had 3 ages of design style. In TOS to Early TNG the bulk of their ship designs were an even military and science laid out. Minus specific ships like Oberth class they could easily shift between peace time and war footing with ease and needed to with the KDF and the RSE being potential enemies, with KDF as the main threat. However during ST6 we see the debate in Starfleet Command on the future of Starfleet with an actual peace treaty with the KDF. By early TNG we see the result. the Fed are in an alliance with the KDF, have a firm peace treaty with the RSE which they haven't heard from in decades. And while they had some conflicts they were likely equal to the first gulf war for the most part thus the Galaxy family of ships all lean more to exploration than combat. Again this is not to say they are weak but they aren't as powerful as they could be for again Starfleet was on the peace footing. however encountering the borg made them make their first ever true warship with the Defiant and then with the Dominion, strained relations with the KDF, Cardassians in turnmoil and the RSE active again Starfleet needed to rethink this stance, hence the return to the Defiant and the start of it's class productio9n. the jump start of more Galaxys then originally intended. and the star of the 3rd era. In the 3rd era we ships design for combat first peace time second. and thus Sov, Akira, Nova, Sare, Steamrunner, and Norway calsses. all more combat oriented then the last class family. Even at nemsis the sov wnet through a minor refit that increased it's combat abilites even further than before. But likely as time would have worn on i think Starfleet would have had gone back to the TOS style of even science and combat. The bulk of the DW Galaxys refited to venture stats and likely Ezxcel with the Lakota specs and the sovs like E-E moving into their secondary roles and peace time orientation. STo0 however mimics the timeline of All good things with Fed and KDF no longer allies. thus the continue slant of the the combat oreient style and hence why the Galaxy X now exists.
Starfleet had many other wars and crisis even before TNG.
Don't let yourself fool by the peaceful look of the Ent-D and other ships from that timeframe.
They easily could have been made "war ready" just as as ships before.
Starfleet just didn't put a big "WARSHIP HERE" sticker on them anymore, so to speak. They made their ships look nicer they didn't neglect their combat worthyness. Just look at the USS Phoenix and how fast it destroyed the Cardassian resistance in "theWounded" (TNG, Episode 4x12). Sure the Defiant did something similar, but that was before your assumed "war era".
So i don't belive there was any change whatoever, they just prefered not to shoot first in TNG, thats all.
The Defiant wasn't something we would call battleship nowadays. It was the prototype of a planned FLEET of defiant class ships serving as rapid respons force against a Borg incursion. It was meant to fight in masses (along other Defiant Class ships), stripped from any non combat relevant stuff.
Those ships where exceptionally strong FOR THEIR SIZE.
Only after a lot of modifications and improvements (better power grid and hull armor) the ship was able to withstand the attack of a up to date Excelsior Class. So it wasn't really the answer to all battle related questions in Trek.
Obviously they where intended to be based on key positions within the Federation, ready to assemble in masses and THEN attack the thread. They where made as small, tough combat ships having lots of firepower for their size, but that doesn't mean one of them could outgun a Nebula Class or Galaxy.
They surely wheren't intended as over the top battleships as shown in STO.
So in a certain sense you're right. Starfleet though at one point that they needed such a fleet of ships, but they decded not to build them.
One: the Defiant was harder to maintain as expected.
Two: moral problems. You see Starfleet is the child of earth military and first and foremost NASA like organisations. It is not just the military it is much more. So they are reluctant to build pure Warships because that would raise a fundamental conflict to their philosophy. It's not that they are a bunch of hippies, but they don't want to focus on one single aspect alone.
It's similar why some countries differe between Police and military. It's a ethical question.
(Starfleet doesn't break their own rules if they become inconvenient.)
About the losses of the GCS ships. It's an old argument, just show me a starfleet ship that could have survived that much pounding like the Odyssey has taken before it got destroyed. (excluding Voyagers plot armor )
The Dominion wanted to make an example of their determination, no ship could have survived that. As answer to that, the Galaxy class line got the Venture (DS9) upgrade.
I agree with you about something, it is totally stupid, moronic, irresponsible and dangerous to take kids and families on board a Starship like a Galaxy Class.
I think with the Venture (DS9) refit Starfleet changed that and adopted the GCS to the situation.
Please don't missunderstand that point, Starfleet didn't change their ethics, the Venture refit was part of the GCS evolution. That ship was BUILD to adapt to future situations if it where peacetimes or conflicts (and type of enemy). Just look on how many Galaxy Classes where destroyed in the Dominion war. Not a single ship.
If that doesn't speak for the GCS adaptability and combat worthyness, then i don't know.
EDIT:
Sorry for the wall of text.:o
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Upgrade Galaxy class with scimitar consoles and Thalaron wave. Nonsence? why , if you can load theta vents , bio-neural warhead , leech and aceton assimilator. And the voice in the galaxy of peace and understanding.
(...) In the 3rd era we ships design for combat first peace time second. and thus Sov, Akira, Nova, Sare, Steamrunner, and Norway calsses. all more combat oriented then the last class family. Even at nemsis the sov wnet through a minor refit that increased it's combat abilites even further than before. But likely as time would have worn on i think Starfleet would have had gone back to the TOS style of even science and combat. The bulk of the DW Galaxys refited to venture stats and likely Ezxcel with the Lakota specs and the sovs like E-E moving into their secondary roles and peace time orientation. STo0 however mimics the timeline of All good things with Fed and KDF no longer allies. thus the continue slant of the the combat oreient style and hence why the Galaxy X now exists.
Yreodred already talked about that, but again there is no indiction whatsoever that any of these ships was build "combat first" - and still nobody can explain to me what "combat first" means considering the Galaxy class is a ship sent to deal with *unknown threats* on it's own. That's what "exploration" brings with it.
The post FC models are more edgy, less round. This might seem like they are aesthetically more aggressive, yet any form of combat focus because they use edgy shapes is pure speculation, and each and every ship type seen in FC served in the fleet a long time before the battle of sector 001 happened and had predecessors.
For instance, I agree that the Norway class probably serves as a frigate. Which is a function the New Orleans class had before. The Steamrunner class (in case registry numbers follow any form of continuity) possibly predates Voyager by nearly decade. It has the exact same meassurements as the Miranda class and possibly serves as a replacement. The Nova class is a planetary research vessel which is stated on screen, only an alternate timeline refit indicated better defensive systems than the lowest baseline. The Akira was intented to be a uber-indestructible-super-battle-destroyer-carrier by it's designer, true, but what we see on screen is a heavy cruiser with no more armament than any other ship on screen. And the sovy was already covered.
So, despite replacing saucers with chevrons and edgy thingies, nothing hints that anything changed. But Yreodred wrote that out very well already
umm, are you blind? in every instance BUT nth degree, we see the moving glow effect before firing, there's none of this isolating emitter TRIBBLE ever before it, or ever again. it is the anomaly.
before all of the shots intended to be really powerful, there is a full array glow effect, and several other times only part of the array is involved for less powerful shots, for various reasons. it actually very consistent, especially when we get into the movies, DS9 and voyager with their superior effects. almost every battle you see the visual charge effect before firing, drawing power from each emitter and adding it to the power of each individual shot.
go ahead anyone, explain some other cause and effect for the moving glow effect, then the one spelled out in the tech manual, that i have explained ad nauseam here. i'll wait.
the argument for arrays only being long for firing arc carries no water. tiny arrays, huge arrays, whatever they have line of sight with, they can hit. if the huge and tiny arrays truly had the same firepower, installing more then just a spattering of tiny arrays on the saucer, arranged tos era style, would be downright insane. think of all the expense and waited space placing hundreds of redundant emitters and their pluming would be, it would be recklessly stupid. there HAS to be a GOOD reason for length, for the moving glow effect, for arrays not raining down the hell of 50 to 100 shots, instead of just 1. ive given you the reason, backed up by the visuals from the show, and tech manual. its air tight.
If the tech manual does state that this effect is a culminting power transfer everything is fine. I can't verify that, my tech manual is at home and I can't check. I was merely saying if it's not in there and it's only observation than the argument holds no water when discussing this topic. You can call it an interpretation, it's even one I think sounds good, but it's not a fact unless there is a line prooving that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
How comes?
Just because we saw those ships in one Battle, doesn't mean they where build for that.
It's like watching a Truck race and saying trucks where build for racing.
Many Trek fans WANT those ships to be more tactical focussed, but nothing on screen confirms that.
Also, as much as we know, Akira, Sabre, Norway and Steamrunner could be much older. I think it would be strange to have almost exclusively new ships in Earth proximity, fighting the surprisingly attacking Borg Cube.
Starfleet had many other wars and crisis even before TNG.
Don't let yourself fool by the peaceful look of the Ent-D and other ships from that timeframe.
They easily could have been made "war ready" just as as ships before.
Starfleet just didn't put a big "WARSHIP HERE" sticker on them anymore, so to speak. They made their ships look nicer they didn't neglect their combat worthyness. Just look at the USS Phoenix and how fast it destroyed the Cardassian resistance in "theWounded" (TNG, Episode 4x12). Sure the Defiant did something similar, but that was before your assumed "war era".
So i don't belive there was any change whatoever, they just prefered not to shoot first in TNG, thats all.
The Defiant wasn't something we would call battleship nowadays. It was the prototype of a planned FLEET of defiant class ships serving as rapid respons force against a Borg incursion. It was meant to fight in masses (along other Defiant Class ships), stripped from any non combat relevant stuff.
Those ships where exceptionally strong FOR THEIR SIZE.
Only after a lot of modifications and improvements (better power grid and hull armor) the ship was able to withstand the attack of a up to date Excelsior Class. So it wasn't really the answer to all battle related questions in Trek.
Obviously they where intended to be based on key positions within the Federation, ready to assemble in masses and THEN attack the thread. They where made as small, tough combat ships having lots of firepower for their size, but that doesn't mean one of them could outgun a Nebula Class or Galaxy.
They surely wheren't intended as over the top battleships as shown in STO.
So in a certain sense you're right. Starfleet though at one point that they needed such a fleet of ships, but they decded not to build them.
One: the Defiant was harder to maintain as expected.
Two: moral problems. You see Starfleet is the child of earth military and first and foremost NASA like organisations. It is not just the military it is much more. So they are reluctant to build pure Warships because that would raise a fundamental conflict to their philosophy. It's not that they are a bunch of hippies, but they don't want to focus on one single aspect alone.
It's similar why some countries differe between Police and military. It's a ethical question.
(Starfleet doesn't break their own rules if they become inconvenient.)
About the losses of the GCS ships. It's an old argument, just show me a starfleet ship that could have survived that much pounding like the Odyssey has taken before it got destroyed. (excluding Voyagers plot armor )
The Dominion wanted to make an example of their determination, no ship could have survived that. As answer to that, the Galaxy class line got the Venture (DS9) upgrade.
I agree with you about something, it is totally stupid, moronic, irresponsible and dangerous to take kids and families on board a Starship like a Galaxy Class.
I think with the Venture (DS9) refit Starfleet changed that and adopted the GCS to the situation.
Please don't missunderstand that point, Starfleet didn't change their ethics, the Venture refit was part of the GCS evolution. That ship was BUILD to adapt to future situations if it where peacetimes or conflicts (and type of enemy). Just look on how many Galaxy Classes where destroyed in the Dominion war. Not a single ship.
If that doesn't speak for the GCS adaptability and combat worthyness, then i don't know.
EDIT:
Sorry for the wall of text.:o
and as i stated most of those wars were likely 1st Gulf war like. And the difference between the tng era ships and the FC era ships is whats the primary and secondary roles. Example is the Galaxy Sov. Galaxy primary role was an exploreer and the secondary was as a battle ship. sov is reverse. the same applies to the FC era ships. They all have peacetime purpose but they were mainly designed for combat. Defiant is the only explection for she has no peace time role. she is a warship. Sensors and probes are the limits of her science ability. post Dw the Defiant class likely does what THE Defiant does. Defend key stations in the Federation.
shpoks is right. *sigh* I get carried away so easily I don't even notice derailing the thread. Sorry about that.
Needed upgrades to the Galaxy class in-game is the topic. Uhm... I've said everything about that. ^^'
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Despite our little debate here the basic truth is that the Galaxy should be among the top hitters in the fleet in my STo timeline yet it lacks it severly in game.
Despite our little debate here the basic truth is that the Galaxy should be among the top hitters in the fleet in my STo timeline yet it lacks it severly in game.
Very true.
Indeed, the differences are so small they can easily be neglected, IMO.
Truth is, the (fleet) G-R (remember the -R, not the -X) needs a change.
This could be done by:
Via a rework of the existing ship, which is rather unlikely and TBH i wouldn't want that. Some ppl have bought the G-R because of its stats. It wouldn't be fair to change that ship.
A "mirror" universe version.
(No one says that it has to be THAT mirror universe, there are other alternative timelines, like the Yesterdays Enterprise Timeline. Who knows, maybe one day we get to save that ship and take it to our universe.)
A release of a Venture Refit.
unlocking G-R ship parts for the G-X.
Stats, BOFF and Console layout has been discussed more than sufficient in the past in this thread alone. Some of them are good, some great. But almost all of them would help to make the G -R playable. Even a minor change in it's BOFF layout would help making the ship viable.
I think we all know that the Galaxy class has gotten more attention than most other ships in STO (when it comes to ship models and new releases).
I can only speak for myself, but it is not my wish to get more and more Galaxy Class versions and releases. What STO needs is a Galaxy Class ship that is actually viable.
(and it should at least resemble the ship most of us have grown up with.)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
except the one time it did get to fight the borg it was nearly destroyed if it was not for the enterprise coming in and saving it.
the defiant was more like a small scout then a true warship and could hit above it's weight class but no where near as much as people seem to think
Note that was hours after engaging the cube. For the E-E went from the Romulan border to Earth. what will take hours, Hours were the Defiant basically attacked it nonstop. I say that's pretty good for a ship that size.
so? all that says is that it was a disposable trash ship.
i have pointed out before, its best terrestrial counterpart is a ww2pt boat, and in universe, its nothing but the fads sad attempt at copying a brel.
we dunno how long the defint was there or how far it had to go to get there. or how and in what capacity it was deployed.
and quite frankly, the millennium falcon was also in that battle and it was able to fly away on its own.
akira too
Um Defiant was their at the start. she was part of the intial fleet gathered. so it was hours. considering that even before going to the Neutral Zone it would take the E-E about 9 hours to get to the inital engagement zone. And yes very PT boat like but in atarships we have a clue. she went toe to toe with an upgraded Excelsior class and tied.
Um Defiant was their at the start. she was part of the intial fleet gathered. so it was hours. considering that even before going to the Neutral Zone it would take the E-E about 9 hours to get to the inital engagement zone. And yes very PT boat like but in atarships we have a clue. she went toe to toe with an upgraded Excelsior class and tied.
9 houres? maybe at a low cruise. warp 9.9 more like less then an hour. the romulan neutral zone is right next door to the federation core worlds, it hasn't taken 9 hours to get there from earth for a 100 years at that point.
9 houres? maybe at a low cruise. warp 9.9 more like less then an hour. the romulan neutral zone is right next door to the federation core worlds, it hasn't taken 9 hours to get there from earth for a 100 years at that point.
dude it's the borg. give Data credit. he would assume they be at max warp. And I think he even stats that at max warp; it would be over 9 hours from where they were BEFORE the RNZ. Which would likely be farther away. and since we know Defiant was with the fleet at the start of the battle we have to give the little ship credit for lasting that long.
dude it's the borg. give Data credit. he would assume they be at max warp. And I think he even stats that at max warp; it would be over 9 hours from where they were BEFORE the RNZ. Which would likely be farther away. and since we know Defiant was with the fleet at the start of the battle we have to give the little ship credit for lasting that long.
so the borg, instead of showing up north of earth from the delta quadrent, appeared in the bajor sector and fought all the way to earth traveling north east? that scene must be TRIBBLE
so the borg, instead of showing up north of earth from the delta quadrent, appeared in the bajor sector and fought all the way to earth traveling north east? that scene must be TRIBBLE
we've never actually seen a full map of the federation or the ST galaxy in general. only some speculation.
Here's what we know. Admiral Hanson was forming a fleet in the Typhon sector. Data states from the E-E current and unknown position it would take over 9 hours to reach the staging point. However the E_E is sent to the RNZ which by logic would be even farther than wheree the E-E was. They had enough time for a sensor sweep when the fleet engaged the borg. and from the audio they got Defiant was there with Bozeman. And Defiant was still fighting by the time the cube was in Earth s[ace and was preparing to ram when the E-E showed up. So even considering some small rest for quick repairs she was in that battle the whole freaking time. that's pretty good for a ship her size.
we've never actually seen a full map of the federation or the ST galaxy in general. only some speculation.
Here's what we know. Admiral Hanson was forming a fleet in the Typhon sector. Data states from the E-E current and unknown position it would take over 9 hours to reach the staging point. However the E_E is sent to the RNZ which by logic would be even farther than wheree the E-E was. They had enough time for a sensor sweep when the fleet engaged the borg. and from the audio they got Defiant was there with Bozeman. And Defiant was still fighting by the time the cube was in Earth s[ace and was preparing to ram when the E-E showed up. So even considering some small rest for quick repairs she was in that battle the whole freaking time. that's pretty good for a ship her size.
being 9 houres away from the staging point doesn't mean they are farther from it at the neutral zone. in fact the ship was probably to the south or west of the staging point, that is north east of earth, and they flew past it or are much closer too it just by being somewhere along the neutral zone.
being 9 houres away from the staging point doesn't mean they are farther from it at the neutral zone. in fact the ship was probably to the south or west of the staging point, that is north east of earth, and they flew past it or are much closer too it just by being somewhere along the neutral zone.
again we have not seen a truly full map of the territory of the Federation. and we do not know where the E-E was when we first saw her. We only know is that from that point they were 9 hours away. THen they had to set course to the RNZ shich is a border between them and thew RSE. Common sense tells us then it is likeluy even farther away from the staging point. Even going from the fact that E-E was at the RNZ when the fleet enganged the borg she still be hours away and in those hours Defiant was battling the borg, maybe not nonstop but never put that past Worf. But she was fight till her weapons were gone and even then Worf was going Klingon preparing to ram when E-E showed up.
The undenialable truth is that the class is the Federation first full out warship. she has no science labs, no conference rooms. To Quote Thomas Riker, she was made to fight.
It also needs to be noted that the producers of FC wanted to blow the Defiant up in the battle of 001 but the producers of DS9 refused.
Also the Defiant is a heavy escort, all through the dominion war proper she never took on and beat anything outside her weight class. She engaged bug ships and Breen frigates, the Galaxy engaged the dominion captain ships.
Defiant is a tough ship for her designation but no match for a capital ship
It also needs to be noted that the producers of FC wanted to blow the Defiant up in the battle of 001 but the producers of DS9 refused.
Also the Defiant is a heavy escort, all through the dominion war proper she never took on and beat anything outside her weight class. She engaged bug ships and Breen frigates, the Galaxy engaged the dominion captain ships.
Defiant is a tough ship for her designation but no match for a capital ship
Mirror Defiant took on a Mirror Neg'var and came out on top. Tom Riker also took on an improved Obsidian Order Keldon with her. It has been so long since I have seen the episode.
Guys, I'm sorry but you are off topic again. I did this as well and I'm sorry, but given the sensitive history with that topic I'm afraid that further derailing the topic will result in a locked thread. So please, return to the Galaxy Class in Star Trek Online.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Considering how 9.5 is detting hammered I think Cryptic should do the following. 1 revert back to 9.0 and try again. and 2 actually listen to you customers. We have pointed out SEVERAL things that need to be done. and one of the best you can do it FIX THE GALAXY R. In this thread and the otehr thread we have given you multiple ideas on how to fix this ship. So LISTEN TO US WHO GIVE YOU MONEY RATHER THEN THE IDIOT WHO CAME UP WITH THE CRAFTING AND DOOF SYSTEMS!
Looking at the specifications of the Galaxy Refit, I honestly do not see anything that needs upgrading. Certainly nothing that necessitates incessant jabbering.
Whenever I see a Galaxy class ship in an STF, I assume... no, that's not quite right... I intrinsically know... I know will be ship that must be carried by the other 4 ships in any given STF.
Looking at the specifications of the Galaxy Refit, I honestly do not see anything that needs upgrading. Certainly nothing that necessitates incessant jabbering.
Whenever I see a Galaxy class ship in an STF, I assume... no, that's not quite right... I intrinsically know... I know will be ship that must be carried by the other 4 ships in any given STF.
dude it's BO layout is horrible. I can make it work but she can't hit hard. You do not need that many eng skills on a ship. and for what should be the 3rd most powerful cruiser in game for the feds it;s out done by FREE ships.
Comments
Galaxy is older the sov. What we can surmise is that she was launched in response to what was going on in the galaxy and what has happened to the Galaxy class. Think of it. we know 6 hulls were constructed in the first generation. 3 were comissioned: Galaxy, E-D, and Yamato. Yamato was lost and Odyssey was cmissioned to replace her. then Odyssey was lost, followed by the E-D. within 10 years over half of the 1st gen of Galaxy's lost. It's then we see the Veture with it's upgrades as a likely answer to some slight flaws in the Galaxy design and with rising chance of conflict Starfleet began making more tactical oriented ships and upgrading what they could of existing designs. Of known existing designs would be Venture and Lakota. of new all of the new ship classes seen in First Contact, all which clearly show a more tacical design. This is not to say they have a peace time use but rather starfleet adjusting their design style.
In essence Starfleetfrom TOS to post nemesis had 3 ages of design style. In TOS to Early TNG the bulk of their ship designs were an even military and science laid out. Minus specific ships like Oberth class they could easily shift between peace time and war footing with ease and needed to with the KDF and the RSE being potential enemies, with KDF as the main threat. However during ST6 we see the debate in Starfleet Command on the future of Starfleet with an actual peace treaty with the KDF. By early TNG we see the result. the Fed are in an alliance with the KDF, have a firm peace treaty with the RSE which they haven't heard from in decades. And while they had some conflicts they were likely equal to the first gulf war for the most part thus the Galaxy family of ships all lean more to exploration than combat. Again this is not to say they are weak but they aren't as powerful as they could be for again Starfleet was on the peace footing. however encountering the borg made them make their first ever true warship with the Defiant and then with the Dominion, strained relations with the KDF, Cardassians in turnmoil and the RSE active again Starfleet needed to rethink this stance, hence the return to the Defiant and the start of it's class productio9n. the jump start of more Galaxys then originally intended. and the star of the 3rd era. In the 3rd era we ships design for combat first peace time second. and thus Sov, Akira, Nova, Sare, Steamrunner, and Norway calsses. all more combat oriented then the last class family. Even at nemsis the sov wnet through a minor refit that increased it's combat abilites even further than before. But likely as time would have worn on i think Starfleet would have had gone back to the TOS style of even science and combat. The bulk of the DW Galaxys refited to venture stats and likely Ezxcel with the Lakota specs and the sovs like E-E moving into their secondary roles and peace time orientation. STo0 however mimics the timeline of All good things with Fed and KDF no longer allies. thus the continue slant of the the combat oreient style and hence why the Galaxy X now exists.
oh not this tech manual and visual canon denying BS again :rolleyes:
whats your deal with defectors? they were not built to be weapons, channel the maximum energy through them that you can, and they burn out. if they were intended to be weapons we would have seen them uses as such more then 1 jerry rigged time.
you seem confused about starship EPS systems. do you know what the warp core makes? plasma. the axillary and impulse fusion plants? plasma. both dump plasma into the system when needed, most likly the the warp core doing most of the work, and the impulse reactors only dumping plasma into the system when the M/AM core is offline, like what played out in nemisis. those fusion reactors aren't quite as fuel efficient or potent per gallon as a M/AM reaction, the enterprise was literally out of gas by the end of the fight.
so, im not really sure what your trying to get at. the EPS system may be a limiting factor to fire rate, it may be a large part of why some ships don't have longer arrays when they potentially could have if they changed some details. one thing about the galaxy class though, with its giant saucer, it will just have a ton of plasma near the array in the huge amount of conduits snaking through the saucer, with 2 impulse assemblies with multiple reactors close by as well.
umm, are you blind? in every instance BUT nth degree, we see the moving glow effect before firing, there's none of this isolating emitter TRIBBLE ever before it, or ever again. it is the anomaly.
before all of the shots intended to be really powerful, there is a full array glow effect, and several other times only part of the array is involved for less powerful shots, for various reasons. it actually very consistent, especially when we get into the movies, DS9 and voyager with their superior effects. almost every battle you see the visual charge effect before firing, drawing power from each emitter and adding it to the power of each individual shot.
go ahead anyone, explain some other cause and effect for the moving glow effect, then the one spelled out in the tech manual, that i have explained ad nauseam here. i'll wait.
the argument for arrays only being long for firing arc carries no water. tiny arrays, huge arrays, whatever they have line of sight with, they can hit. if the huge and tiny arrays truly had the same firepower, installing more then just a spattering of tiny arrays on the saucer, arranged tos era style, would be downright insane. think of all the expense and waited space placing hundreds of redundant emitters and their pluming would be, it would be recklessly stupid. there HAS to be a GOOD reason for length, for the moving glow effect, for arrays not raining down the hell of 50 to 100 shots, instead of just 1. ive given you the reason, backed up by the visuals from the show, and tech manual. its air tight.
yoyager is a bit less then consistent, but voyager was always flying around really fast, they didn't zoom in on the ship sitting still firing the shot like they did in the other shows, it was all about ziping around, they probably figured you wouldn't notice. when it was made and aired in the late 90s, do you remember how big and boxy and NOT hi deff your tv was? NOW its hard to miss that kind of stuff, in 1080p
scenes like this illustrate the point well, here the ship wasn't moving fast, and the shot was of the ship fireing primarily, not ziping across the screen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkw69E_C4g
this clip also shows that splitting an array 'arbitrarily' is not necessarily much of a disadvantage, when it fires them like this. for the record, those were probably the hottest shots we see them fire, with that slow moving precharge before firing. makes sense, its only shooting at the borg.
heres a pretty good vid about the galaxy vs the sovereign https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpYR9SRxBQI
Just because we saw those ships in one Battle, doesn't mean they where build for that.
It's like watching a Truck race and saying trucks where build for racing.
Many Trek fans WANT those ships to be more tactical focussed, but nothing on screen confirms that.
Also, as much as we know, Akira, Sabre, Norway and Steamrunner could be much older. I think it would be strange to have almost exclusively new ships in Earth proximity, fighting the surprisingly attacking Borg Cube.
Starfleet had many other wars and crisis even before TNG.
Don't let yourself fool by the peaceful look of the Ent-D and other ships from that timeframe.
They easily could have been made "war ready" just as as ships before.
Starfleet just didn't put a big "WARSHIP HERE" sticker on them anymore, so to speak. They made their ships look nicer they didn't neglect their combat worthyness. Just look at the USS Phoenix and how fast it destroyed the Cardassian resistance in "theWounded" (TNG, Episode 4x12). Sure the Defiant did something similar, but that was before your assumed "war era".
So i don't belive there was any change whatoever, they just prefered not to shoot first in TNG, thats all.
The Defiant wasn't something we would call battleship nowadays. It was the prototype of a planned FLEET of defiant class ships serving as rapid respons force against a Borg incursion. It was meant to fight in masses (along other Defiant Class ships), stripped from any non combat relevant stuff.
Those ships where exceptionally strong FOR THEIR SIZE.
Only after a lot of modifications and improvements (better power grid and hull armor) the ship was able to withstand the attack of a up to date Excelsior Class. So it wasn't really the answer to all battle related questions in Trek.
Obviously they where intended to be based on key positions within the Federation, ready to assemble in masses and THEN attack the thread. They where made as small, tough combat ships having lots of firepower for their size, but that doesn't mean one of them could outgun a Nebula Class or Galaxy.
They surely wheren't intended as over the top battleships as shown in STO.
So in a certain sense you're right. Starfleet though at one point that they needed such a fleet of ships, but they decded not to build them.
One: the Defiant was harder to maintain as expected.
Two: moral problems. You see Starfleet is the child of earth military and first and foremost NASA like organisations. It is not just the military it is much more. So they are reluctant to build pure Warships because that would raise a fundamental conflict to their philosophy. It's not that they are a bunch of hippies, but they don't want to focus on one single aspect alone.
It's similar why some countries differe between Police and military. It's a ethical question.
(Starfleet doesn't break their own rules if they become inconvenient.)
About the losses of the GCS ships. It's an old argument, just show me a starfleet ship that could have survived that much pounding like the Odyssey has taken before it got destroyed. (excluding Voyagers plot armor
The Dominion wanted to make an example of their determination, no ship could have survived that. As answer to that, the Galaxy class line got the Venture (DS9) upgrade.
I agree with you about something, it is totally stupid, moronic, irresponsible and dangerous to take kids and families on board a Starship like a Galaxy Class.
I think with the Venture (DS9) refit Starfleet changed that and adopted the GCS to the situation.
Please don't missunderstand that point, Starfleet didn't change their ethics, the Venture refit was part of the GCS evolution. That ship was BUILD to adapt to future situations if it where peacetimes or conflicts (and type of enemy). Just look on how many Galaxy Classes where destroyed in the Dominion war. Not a single ship.
If that doesn't speak for the GCS adaptability and combat worthyness, then i don't know.
EDIT:
Sorry for the wall of text.:o
Yreodred already talked about that, but again there is no indiction whatsoever that any of these ships was build "combat first" - and still nobody can explain to me what "combat first" means considering the Galaxy class is a ship sent to deal with *unknown threats* on it's own. That's what "exploration" brings with it.
The post FC models are more edgy, less round. This might seem like they are aesthetically more aggressive, yet any form of combat focus because they use edgy shapes is pure speculation, and each and every ship type seen in FC served in the fleet a long time before the battle of sector 001 happened and had predecessors.
For instance, I agree that the Norway class probably serves as a frigate. Which is a function the New Orleans class had before. The Steamrunner class (in case registry numbers follow any form of continuity) possibly predates Voyager by nearly decade. It has the exact same meassurements as the Miranda class and possibly serves as a replacement. The Nova class is a planetary research vessel which is stated on screen, only an alternate timeline refit indicated better defensive systems than the lowest baseline. The Akira was intented to be a uber-indestructible-super-battle-destroyer-carrier by it's designer, true, but what we see on screen is a heavy cruiser with no more armament than any other ship on screen. And the sovy was already covered.
So, despite replacing saucers with chevrons and edgy thingies, nothing hints that anything changed. But Yreodred wrote that out very well already
If the tech manual does state that this effect is a culminting power transfer everything is fine. I can't verify that, my tech manual is at home and I can't check. I was merely saying if it's not in there and it's only observation than the argument holds no water when discussing this topic. You can call it an interpretation, it's even one I think sounds good, but it's not a fact unless there is a line prooving that.
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and as i stated most of those wars were likely 1st Gulf war like. And the difference between the tng era ships and the FC era ships is whats the primary and secondary roles. Example is the Galaxy Sov. Galaxy primary role was an exploreer and the secondary was as a battle ship. sov is reverse. the same applies to the FC era ships. They all have peacetime purpose but they were mainly designed for combat. Defiant is the only explection for she has no peace time role. she is a warship. Sensors and probes are the limits of her science ability. post Dw the Defiant class likely does what THE Defiant does. Defend key stations in the Federation.
Needed upgrades to the Galaxy class in-game is the topic. Uhm... I've said everything about that. ^^'
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Sorry for being off topic.
Very true.
Indeed, the differences are so small they can easily be neglected, IMO.
Truth is, the (fleet) G-R (remember the -R, not the -X
This could be done by:
(No one says that it has to be THAT mirror universe, there are other alternative timelines, like the Yesterdays Enterprise Timeline. Who knows, maybe one day we get to save that ship and take it to our universe.)
Stats, BOFF and Console layout has been discussed more than sufficient in the past in this thread alone. Some of them are good, some great. But almost all of them would help to make the G -R playable. Even a minor change in it's BOFF layout would help making the ship viable.
I think we all know that the Galaxy class has gotten more attention than most other ships in STO (when it comes to ship models and new releases).
I can only speak for myself, but it is not my wish to get more and more Galaxy Class versions and releases. What STO needs is a Galaxy Class ship that is actually viable.
(and it should at least resemble the ship most of us have grown up with.)
Same here.
THe fact it was designed to FIGHT THE BORG. That's why she is small and compact. Big punch small crew. perfect senario for fighting the borg.
except the one time it did get to fight the borg it was nearly destroyed if it was not for the enterprise coming in and saving it.
the defiant was more like a small scout then a true warship and could hit above it's weight class but no where near as much as people seem to think
Note that was hours after engaging the cube. For the E-E went from the Romulan border to Earth. what will take hours, Hours were the Defiant basically attacked it nonstop. I say that's pretty good for a ship that size.
Um Defiant was their at the start. she was part of the intial fleet gathered. so it was hours. considering that even before going to the Neutral Zone it would take the E-E about 9 hours to get to the inital engagement zone. And yes very PT boat like but in atarships we have a clue. she went toe to toe with an upgraded Excelsior class and tied.
9 houres? maybe at a low cruise. warp 9.9 more like less then an hour. the romulan neutral zone is right next door to the federation core worlds, it hasn't taken 9 hours to get there from earth for a 100 years at that point.
dude it's the borg. give Data credit. he would assume they be at max warp. And I think he even stats that at max warp; it would be over 9 hours from where they were BEFORE the RNZ. Which would likely be farther away. and since we know Defiant was with the fleet at the start of the battle we have to give the little ship credit for lasting that long.
so the borg, instead of showing up north of earth from the delta quadrent, appeared in the bajor sector and fought all the way to earth traveling north east? that scene must be TRIBBLE
we've never actually seen a full map of the federation or the ST galaxy in general. only some speculation.
Here's what we know. Admiral Hanson was forming a fleet in the Typhon sector. Data states from the E-E current and unknown position it would take over 9 hours to reach the staging point. However the E_E is sent to the RNZ which by logic would be even farther than wheree the E-E was. They had enough time for a sensor sweep when the fleet engaged the borg. and from the audio they got Defiant was there with Bozeman. And Defiant was still fighting by the time the cube was in Earth s[ace and was preparing to ram when the E-E showed up. So even considering some small rest for quick repairs she was in that battle the whole freaking time. that's pretty good for a ship her size.
being 9 houres away from the staging point doesn't mean they are farther from it at the neutral zone. in fact the ship was probably to the south or west of the staging point, that is north east of earth, and they flew past it or are much closer too it just by being somewhere along the neutral zone.
again we have not seen a truly full map of the territory of the Federation. and we do not know where the E-E was when we first saw her. We only know is that from that point they were 9 hours away. THen they had to set course to the RNZ shich is a border between them and thew RSE. Common sense tells us then it is likeluy even farther away from the staging point. Even going from the fact that E-E was at the RNZ when the fleet enganged the borg she still be hours away and in those hours Defiant was battling the borg, maybe not nonstop but never put that past Worf. But she was fight till her weapons were gone and even then Worf was going Klingon preparing to ram when E-E showed up.
The undenialable truth is that the class is the Federation first full out warship. she has no science labs, no conference rooms. To Quote Thomas Riker, she was made to fight.
Also the Defiant is a heavy escort, all through the dominion war proper she never took on and beat anything outside her weight class. She engaged bug ships and Breen frigates, the Galaxy engaged the dominion captain ships.
Defiant is a tough ship for her designation but no match for a capital ship
Mirror Defiant took on a Mirror Neg'var and came out on top. Tom Riker also took on an improved Obsidian Order Keldon with her. It has been so long since I have seen the episode.
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http://sto.gamepedia.com/Exploration_Cruiser_Retrofit
The Galaxy-class is not this:
http://youtu.be/u3WSG6SDE1w
Whenever I see a Galaxy class ship in an STF, I assume... no, that's not quite right... I intrinsically know... I know will be ship that must be carried by the other 4 ships in any given STF.
dude it's BO layout is horrible. I can make it work but she can't hit hard. You do not need that many eng skills on a ship. and for what should be the 3rd most powerful cruiser in game for the feds it;s out done by FREE ships.