There is no need for crazy solutions. Tech doffs where 100% balanced when they where released. Beamdowns point of people using it before it was cool... he has one but its not what he was getting at I don't think.
A2B used to be on a system global with EPTx... that meant that running a2b limited you to one EPTx and ONE copy of A2B.... or 2 A2B and NO EPTX. This made the tech crazy -10% all cool downs per doff balanced... because a balanced build running ONE a2b traded power all the time by only having one EPTx running at a time. The trade was a bunch of skills at global and long duration like DEM and RSP being cooled down a very respectable 30%.
Then one moronic dev messed up a perfectly balanced doff by changing the system cool down. That should have either NEVER happened. Or the doffs should have been reduced in effect by at least 50%.
What was a skill / doff combo that required some build know how skill and a good sense of timing to pull off... has been dumbed down so far that you could just use a drinking bird to smash your space bar every 4-5s and watch TV. There is zero thinking needed to run an a2b build.
Or it should get the same global cd but with Photonic officer thus making that abitlity good and needed.This rsp3 every 30s is complete BS + remember that tt ,st and eg no longer share cooldowns.
i need that rsp at global, and my eng team and tac team to tick every 15 secs, and my sci team available at the drop of a hat.... just to stay alive....
either that means i now suck more than i used to, or, the power creep has gone far enough to where its needed. because with all that i do just fine....
the only other way i can have a decent pvp build lately....is if i go full tac in sci ship straight to hull damage via tbr and fbp... and we just all love those dont we? but at least then i have the available heals through full aux power to keep myself afloat.
There is no need for crazy solutions. Tech doffs where 100% balanced when they where released. Beamdowns point of people using it before it was cool... he has one but its not what he was getting at I don't think.
A2B used to be on a system global with EPTx... that meant that running a2b limited you to one EPTx and ONE copy of A2B.... or 2 A2B and NO EPTX. This made the tech crazy -10% all cool downs per doff balanced... because a balanced build running ONE a2b traded power all the time by only having one EPTx running at a time. The trade was a bunch of skills at global and long duration like DEM and RSP being cooled down a very respectable 30%.
Then one moronic dev messed up a perfectly balanced doff by changing the system cool down. That should have either NEVER happened. Or the doffs should have been reduced in effect by at least 50%.
What was a skill / doff combo that required some build know how skill and a good sense of timing to pull off... has been dumbed down so far that you could just use a drinking bird to smash your space bar every 4-5s and watch TV. There is zero thinking needed to run an a2b build.
My thoughts exactly. A2B is great for training wheels sure, but in its current state lots of players never see a reason to actually learn anything else.
i need that rsp at global, and my eng team and tac team to tick every 15 secs, and my sci team available at the drop of a hat.... just to stay alive....
either that means i now suck more than i used to, or, the power creep has gone far enough to where its needed. because with all that i do just fine....
the only other way i can have a decent pvp build lately....is if i go full tac in sci ship straight to hull damage via tbr and fbp... and we just all love those dont we? but at least then i have the available heals through full aux power to keep myself afloat.
have fun kill bad guys
That's kind of Chicken and Egg issue in terms of needing everything you listed if you weren't fighting against aux2batt builds or other absurdly out of whack balance choices made since our "PvP" and Heretic the Doff Dev left.
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You know what, I'm tired of romulan warbirds fielding Aux2BS ships with APO, Sci Team, Eng Team, Pol Hull, Tac Team and CRF revolving non-stop. They completely negate most sci builds as they never get held, they shrug subnuc off and viral matrix does nothing to them.
Pretty much from here on in if I come across a team that has more than one Aux2BS cookie cutter exploiter I'm warping out.
Interesting thing was that I was considering dropping some coin on the game. I used to budget a monthly amount to this game up until the game started to go south. A match I just had with 4 Aux2BS cookie cutter no-skill ships (2 were ha'feh) reminded me of why I haven't spent a cent in many many months. From here on in I'm voting with my warp out button as well as my wallet.
I also refuse to A2B. There's no need to. I don't have to cheat to win. I'm too good for that, or any broken mechanic. I'll let others cheat so they can pretend to be a threat to me 1vs1. Technically no one in STO is a threat anyway, but that's besides the point.
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I'm an Engineer in an Odyssey and I never used Aux2Bat. I would have to give up too many good heals in my book just to fire FaW more often. I just use FaW III and II and keep all my massive heals and it works fine for me.
Now if I were a Tach in an escort looking for DPS than yeah I would consider it...but it doesn't fit my healer role, my Eng Team III already fires off every 15 seconds along with my Sci Team.
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This is so funny. How many years needed to pass, and how many sold/bought techs, marions, scimitars and galors before this thread opened. lol.
Scratch that. What is even funnier is that people with beam a2b ships still can't figure out how to run it for max potential. they put fkn FAW on a ship they have invested ~500mil for doffs and spiral disruptors.
But, hey, DPS amirite? ahahaha.
And the climax of humor is if/when someone uses beam ship correctly it doesn't even get recognized as such, but ppl would say a2b FAWtard.
i need to make one again just to laugh on comments.
everytime u win against a non-a2b-build u have to ask urselves if it had something to do with the ability to bring more powers on (or near to) gcd than ur opponent. that simple.
and for the timing: it hasn't been that much of a prob before they removed the shared cd's with eptx's. it became more of a prob since they released the avenger/mogh line. and it totally is gettin out of hand now that every new released ship is capable of running a2b.
that in combo with all the super-zippies and stuff they added lately and all the TRIBBLE that have been there before (scimitards and galors i read)... i refuse to jump that train.
lil sidenote on faw-galors: of course dem-faw-overcap-galors has been around for a long time. and one certain fleet has been known for to troll the q's with teams of those. they not earned much sympathy out of the community for their playstyle.
by today that playstyle has become common ground and is totally driven over the top with the a2b-scimitard variant.
so go on defending playstyles much more experienced players than me or you probably will ever become already marked as broken and totally op long time ago. u don't really think powercreep made those tactics more viable from a perspective of game-design/-balance/-fairness, do u?
So basicaly your opinion is, that if somebody with a superior build wins, he didn't deserve it, because he compensates his "possible" lack of skill with a better build.
So basicaly your opinion is, that if somebody with a superior build wins, he didn't deserve it, because he compensates his "possible" lack of skill with a better build.
nope:
my opinion is that a2b-builds are not superior in sense of skill/the ability to build a good build. in my opinion any a2b-cd-reducing-mechanic-using-build is kinda broken and totally overpowered in comparison to what, in my opinion, is a "good build" that works with only the set numbers of powers in relation to their (shared) cd's.
short:
the ability to bring more powers on or near to gcd is not related to what imo are "better/superior builds" in sense of skill.
abusing a mechanic that enables everyone to boost his performance from the level of militia to the level of elite-troops is not related to skill to me.
I hope they break aux2bat tomorrow, I hope they TRIBBLE that whole system up, cause heres the fun FACT from those boys that do the top dps runs in pve, aux2bat is not nessassary, its not even needed, half of them dont even use it- so ya, seeing aux2bat go does not spell the end of the dps cruisers LOL
i know, that is not my prob with the whole a2b-complex. to me it comes down to the ability to pack more powers on or near gcd's than ur opponent in pvp and everything that can result out of that simple fact. nothing more, nothing less.
peeps puff their chest out on the forums and I love the folks that take the time to make a screen capture and post the rebutle
on a thought to waste,
I hope they break aux2bat tomorrow, I hope they TRIBBLE that whole system up, cause heres the fun FACT from those boys that do the top dps runs in pve, aux2bat is not nessassary, its not even needed, half of them dont even use it- so ya, seeing aux2bat go does not spell the end of the dps cruisers LOL
as to faw, well I hope they break that too, I hope they make faw so much of a joke and BEAMS a joke to use in pvp cause let me tell you,
there are bigger monsters in the forest that faw is keeping from coming out,
think aceton assimilators and grav wells will do the same job of keeping those monsters in check?
not a chance, plasma burn-down builds, stunlock builds, mines up to ying yang, temporal device 3 second refires, etc man.. I got no better way of tell you but just trust me when I say this,
faw is the only thing keeping 99% of this stuff from being fielded in mass in the cues
See, here is a player that understands how it works.. Like the build i was running on my nicor, a2b is just a small part of the whole picture.. but some people tend to blame everything on it, cause its easyer that way... than accepting defeat.
I remembered when i started this game, beamboats was considdered weak in pvp, and it was "escorts online". The funny part is that a2b with technicians was available then.. but most people just didnt know its potential.. but now. yeah now, there are guides on how to setup your ship with aux2bat, and getting all skills at global cooldown! And 99% of all these builds are based on those guides.... that being said, very few people actually has a good a2b build in pvp that makes a difference in the battlefield... and even though if they have a "perfect" build you need to know how to use it. Or else it becomes a ticklebeam build.
And like i stated in my reply to Atalantra, the reason i beat him was because i manually during the fight several times adjusted my powerlevels to finetune my dps so i could pressure him just enouigh to break his healing cycle without overextending to far. To be able to do this during a duel requires experience and practice. And a2b actually interfered with the adjustments, and made it harder for me to adjust.
So when i think about it, the skill he blames for his loss, was actually the skill that made it harder for me to adjust and beat him.. hahahahhahaha the irony.
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
What about other powerfull synergies appart from A2B? It's not like A2B is the only unbalanced thing in STO when it comes to PVP.
as i see it, A2B, while powerfull, is hardly the main balancing problem PVP suffers from, and quite frankly the only sensible way so far to give viability to cruisers that lack firepower. Significantly nerfing A2B/technician synergy means dropping certain cruisers back into the abbys of uselesnes.
What about other powerfull synergies appart from A2B? It's not like A2B is the only unbalanced thing in STO when it comes to PVP.
as i see it, A2B, while powerfull, is hardly the main balancing problem PVP suffers from, and quite frankly the only sensible way so far to give viability to cruisers that lack firepower. Significantly nerfing A2B/technician synergy means dropping certain cruisers back into the abbys of uselesnes.
i totally agree, it's not the only unbalanced TRIBBLE in sto pvp. but due to it's usefulness and the simplicity in running such a build (look latest ship-releases) it gets kinda out of hand.
that fact one easily can see reflected in the number of folks running a2b in pvp.
i do disagree on the firepower-point. i don't run a2b and got some cruiser builds that can dish out quite nice dps without (off topic sidenote: i don't "measure" dps by ise runs, to me those numbers are very flawed).
even a fleet gal-x can effectively be run with dhc's on a non-a2b-build and faw-dem-overcap-galors have been powerful before a2b and will stay so, even after if the cd reducing mechanic may hopefully will have vanished some day ...
nope:
my opinion is that a2b-builds are not superior in sense of skill/the ability to build a good build. in my opinion any a2b-cd-reducing-mechanic-using-build is kinda broken and totally overpowered in comparison to what, in my opinion, is a "good build" that works with only the set numbers of powers in relation to their (shared) cd's.
short:
the ability to bring more powers on or near to gcd is not related to what imo are "better/superior builds" in sense of skill.
abusing a mechanic that enables everyone to boost his performance from the level of militia to the level of elite-troops is not related to skill to me.
it's like "dope the horse, win the race"...
Creating builds is a skill. If you have a nack for creating builds that would give you an advantage, thats your strength. And thats fine, and its just a small part of the whole picture.
But dude, you should test this out abit more before stating that running a2b gives an avg player "elite-troop" level. this is basicly not true... I would rather say it would help a very unskilled player become somewhat avarage...
First of all, to be able to get everything on global cooldown requires that you run 2 copies of a2b. and running 2 copies of a2b will ofc help the cooldowns, but it will also take up a vital spot that you can use for other abilities. Many skills and abilities has no sense of being on "global cooldown" and it would be a huge waste running 2 copies of aux2bat for this.... And thats why i only run one copy of aux2bat, for a very spesific reason, i wanted top reduce the cooldown of certain skills, like reverse shield polarity. The added benefit is the extra powerlevels, and that it also reduceds cooldown on everything else.. but here's the catch, you would need to have used a certain skill before its benefitial for the cooldown..... certain skills in pvp, like reverse shield polarity many people use as a "oh TRIBBLE ima gonna die" button, to save their skin. And you dont use this skill on every cycle, thats just a very much waste. You save it, until you need it. And aux2bat wouldnt help at this point. I usually dont even press aux2bat during a fight unless i need to reduce the cooldown of it.
A good build needs to be scaled and balanced towards what you want the ship to do. If you have trouble dealing with certain players in pvp, and if its because they have slapped a couple of copies of aux2bat that makes the makes it so... then i would advice you to have another look on your own build and try to figure out why this is.. ask yourself.. what am i doing wrong, what do i need to change.. what do i need to do etc. There is a counter to everything in this game. And the best counter for beating those 2copy aux2bat builds is to setup a ship, that doesnt waste anything, also dont overheal, or overextend in a fight...
I agree that most aux2bat builds are made so you really dont need to press anything but the binds on your spacebar to be able to work.. and require no skill to fly, but again.. this is why these builds will always loose to an experienced player. an experienced player doesnt even need to watch the timers on the buffs to know when to strike, he sees the animation for a skill, and then he just knows that ok, the cooldown is so so many seconds.. and without even thinking about it, he is able to strike and time his attack more or less perfectly.... it comes with experience... and practice.
And whats the point of doping the horse, if the horse doesnt know how to run? You could dope the hell out of the horse, but he will never win the race....
"Better were the days when mastery o' space came not from bargains struck with eldritch creatures... but from the sweat of a man's brow and the strength of his back alone. Ye all know thi's to be true!"
Aux2batt gives options to us KDF tacts. Without it, if we want to stay in combat (ie not a vape build, where roms are better anyway) the power creep on the escort side is so strong we are pigeonholed into the 2 best nonsense ships in this game : JHAS and hunter escort.
On the other hand a2b makes a few fleet battle cruisers competitive without being shadowed by all the lolbox TRIBBLE. I really wish i could play a raptor without thinking "s*** that hunter escort is smaller than my ship, turns better, has a better boff layout and has cruisers defenses".
Now i agree it is not very good gameplay, but every time it try something new and cool it is focused to death and does little in return. If a2b wasnt that strong it would be lockbox/rom online even more.
a2b builds are the reason my b'rel is equipped with DEM3 weapons overcap. I have to also use a broken mechanic against those who use a broken mechanic because then it becomes balanced, but there are very few escort/raider type of ships that can do this. The B'rel is one of them and I have no quams about teaching these a2b'ers a little lesson and showing them that their artificially inflated pvp skills can be beaten by using the same tactics they use to build their ship.
I do not have a problem with an escort/raider using a2b like I do with a cruiser who already has better shield/hull regen rates and more room for heals than an escort/raider.
BTW, congrats cryptic.. you are superior game coders!!!!
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MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
- But dude, you should test this out abit more before stating that running a2b gives an avg player "elite-troop" level. this is basicly not true... I would rather say it would help a very unskilled player become somewhat avarage...
- I usually dont even press aux2bat during a fight unless i need to reduce the cooldown of it.
- And whats the point of doping the horse, if the horse doesnt know how to run? You could dope the hell out of the horse, but he will never win the race....
- got me on the first
- gotcha on the second ... that simple move already hits the core to me. (i'm aware of ya explanations, thx )
- for the third:
as already stated in other posts in here average joe a2b'ing is not that much of a prob to me. he shouldn't be able to imo, yeah, but i usually not more spot him as a threat just because of a2b (though his performance with a2b is usually much higher already than without).
but at least if one of those "elites" jump onto such a build, totally knowing what he's doing, that point about "building-skills" turns into "exploiting/abusing" a broken/as op known mechanic to me. i can't respect that, sorry.
in short: i talk about the horses that could win the race without doping, but get doped though ...
Comments
dont feed my ego:D
Or it should get the same global cd but with Photonic officer thus making that abitlity good and needed.This rsp3 every 30s is complete BS + remember that tt ,st and eg no longer share cooldowns.
DHC being op is sort of S6. You still playing ?
i find i can't keep up without a2b builds.
i need that rsp at global, and my eng team and tac team to tick every 15 secs, and my sci team available at the drop of a hat.... just to stay alive....
either that means i now suck more than i used to, or, the power creep has gone far enough to where its needed. because with all that i do just fine....
the only other way i can have a decent pvp build lately....is if i go full tac in sci ship straight to hull damage via tbr and fbp... and we just all love those dont we? but at least then i have the available heals through full aux power to keep myself afloat.
have fun kill bad guys
My thoughts exactly. A2B is great for training wheels sure, but in its current state lots of players never see a reason to actually learn anything else.
That's kind of Chicken and Egg issue in terms of needing everything you listed if you weren't fighting against aux2batt builds or other absurdly out of whack balance choices made since our "PvP" and Heretic the Doff Dev left.
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"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Pretty much from here on in if I come across a team that has more than one Aux2BS cookie cutter exploiter I'm warping out.
Interesting thing was that I was considering dropping some coin on the game. I used to budget a monthly amount to this game up until the game started to go south. A match I just had with 4 Aux2BS cookie cutter no-skill ships (2 were ha'feh) reminded me of why I haven't spent a cent in many many months. From here on in I'm voting with my warp out button as well as my wallet.
There is the DHC thread talking about the innate CrtD of them...
*cough* yeah, sure. that's it all about :rolleyes:
Now if I were a Tach in an escort looking for DPS than yeah I would consider it...but it doesn't fit my healer role, my Eng Team III already fires off every 15 seconds along with my Sci Team.
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Scratch that. What is even funnier is that people with beam a2b ships still can't figure out how to run it for max potential. they put fkn FAW on a ship they have invested ~500mil for doffs and spiral disruptors.
But, hey, DPS amirite? ahahaha.
And the climax of humor is if/when someone uses beam ship correctly it doesn't even get recognized as such, but ppl would say a2b FAWtard.
i need to make one again just to laugh on comments.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
face it a2b-lovers:
everytime u win against a non-a2b-build u have to ask urselves if it had something to do with the ability to bring more powers on (or near to) gcd than ur opponent. that simple.
and for the timing: it hasn't been that much of a prob before they removed the shared cd's with eptx's. it became more of a prob since they released the avenger/mogh line. and it totally is gettin out of hand now that every new released ship is capable of running a2b.
that in combo with all the super-zippies and stuff they added lately and all the TRIBBLE that have been there before (scimitards and galors i read)... i refuse to jump that train.
lil sidenote on faw-galors: of course dem-faw-overcap-galors has been around for a long time. and one certain fleet has been known for to troll the q's with teams of those. they not earned much sympathy out of the community for their playstyle.
by today that playstyle has become common ground and is totally driven over the top with the a2b-scimitard variant.
so go on defending playstyles much more experienced players than me or you probably will ever become already marked as broken and totally op long time ago. u don't really think powercreep made those tactics more viable from a perspective of game-design/-balance/-fairness, do u?
So basicaly your opinion is, that if somebody with a superior build wins, he didn't deserve it, because he compensates his "possible" lack of skill with a better build.
nope:
my opinion is that a2b-builds are not superior in sense of skill/the ability to build a good build. in my opinion any a2b-cd-reducing-mechanic-using-build is kinda broken and totally overpowered in comparison to what, in my opinion, is a "good build" that works with only the set numbers of powers in relation to their (shared) cd's.
short:
the ability to bring more powers on or near to gcd is not related to what imo are "better/superior builds" in sense of skill.
abusing a mechanic that enables everyone to boost his performance from the level of militia to the level of elite-troops is not related to skill to me.
it's like "dope the horse, win the race"...
i know, that is not my prob with the whole a2b-complex. to me it comes down to the ability to pack more powers on or near gcd's than ur opponent in pvp and everything that can result out of that simple fact. nothing more, nothing less.
See, here is a player that understands how it works.. Like the build i was running on my nicor, a2b is just a small part of the whole picture.. but some people tend to blame everything on it, cause its easyer that way... than accepting defeat.
I remembered when i started this game, beamboats was considdered weak in pvp, and it was "escorts online". The funny part is that a2b with technicians was available then.. but most people just didnt know its potential.. but now. yeah now, there are guides on how to setup your ship with aux2bat, and getting all skills at global cooldown! And 99% of all these builds are based on those guides.... that being said, very few people actually has a good a2b build in pvp that makes a difference in the battlefield... and even though if they have a "perfect" build you need to know how to use it. Or else it becomes a ticklebeam build.
And like i stated in my reply to Atalantra, the reason i beat him was because i manually during the fight several times adjusted my powerlevels to finetune my dps so i could pressure him just enouigh to break his healing cycle without overextending to far. To be able to do this during a duel requires experience and practice. And a2b actually interfered with the adjustments, and made it harder for me to adjust.
So when i think about it, the skill he blames for his loss, was actually the skill that made it harder for me to adjust and beat him.. hahahahhahaha the irony.
as i see it, A2B, while powerfull, is hardly the main balancing problem PVP suffers from, and quite frankly the only sensible way so far to give viability to cruisers that lack firepower. Significantly nerfing A2B/technician synergy means dropping certain cruisers back into the abbys of uselesnes.
i totally agree, it's not the only unbalanced TRIBBLE in sto pvp. but due to it's usefulness and the simplicity in running such a build (look latest ship-releases) it gets kinda out of hand.
that fact one easily can see reflected in the number of folks running a2b in pvp.
i do disagree on the firepower-point. i don't run a2b and got some cruiser builds that can dish out quite nice dps without (off topic sidenote: i don't "measure" dps by ise runs, to me those numbers are very flawed).
even a fleet gal-x can effectively be run with dhc's on a non-a2b-build and faw-dem-overcap-galors have been powerful before a2b and will stay so, even after if the cd reducing mechanic may hopefully will have vanished some day
Creating builds is a skill. If you have a nack for creating builds that would give you an advantage, thats your strength. And thats fine, and its just a small part of the whole picture.
But dude, you should test this out abit more before stating that running a2b gives an avg player "elite-troop" level. this is basicly not true... I would rather say it would help a very unskilled player become somewhat avarage...
First of all, to be able to get everything on global cooldown requires that you run 2 copies of a2b. and running 2 copies of a2b will ofc help the cooldowns, but it will also take up a vital spot that you can use for other abilities. Many skills and abilities has no sense of being on "global cooldown" and it would be a huge waste running 2 copies of aux2bat for this.... And thats why i only run one copy of aux2bat, for a very spesific reason, i wanted top reduce the cooldown of certain skills, like reverse shield polarity. The added benefit is the extra powerlevels, and that it also reduceds cooldown on everything else.. but here's the catch, you would need to have used a certain skill before its benefitial for the cooldown..... certain skills in pvp, like reverse shield polarity many people use as a "oh TRIBBLE ima gonna die" button, to save their skin. And you dont use this skill on every cycle, thats just a very much waste. You save it, until you need it. And aux2bat wouldnt help at this point. I usually dont even press aux2bat during a fight unless i need to reduce the cooldown of it.
A good build needs to be scaled and balanced towards what you want the ship to do. If you have trouble dealing with certain players in pvp, and if its because they have slapped a couple of copies of aux2bat that makes the makes it so... then i would advice you to have another look on your own build and try to figure out why this is.. ask yourself.. what am i doing wrong, what do i need to change.. what do i need to do etc. There is a counter to everything in this game. And the best counter for beating those 2copy aux2bat builds is to setup a ship, that doesnt waste anything, also dont overheal, or overextend in a fight...
I agree that most aux2bat builds are made so you really dont need to press anything but the binds on your spacebar to be able to work.. and require no skill to fly, but again.. this is why these builds will always loose to an experienced player. an experienced player doesnt even need to watch the timers on the buffs to know when to strike, he sees the animation for a skill, and then he just knows that ok, the cooldown is so so many seconds.. and without even thinking about it, he is able to strike and time his attack more or less perfectly.... it comes with experience... and practice.
And whats the point of doping the horse, if the horse doesnt know how to run? You could dope the hell out of the horse, but he will never win the race....
On the other hand a2b makes a few fleet battle cruisers competitive without being shadowed by all the lolbox TRIBBLE. I really wish i could play a raptor without thinking "s*** that hunter escort is smaller than my ship, turns better, has a better boff layout and has cruisers defenses".
Now i agree it is not very good gameplay, but every time it try something new and cool it is focused to death and does little in return. If a2b wasnt that strong it would be lockbox/rom online even more.
I do not have a problem with an escort/raider using a2b like I do with a cruiser who already has better shield/hull regen rates and more room for heals than an escort/raider.
BTW, congrats cryptic.. you are superior game coders!!!!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
- got me on the first
- gotcha on the second
- for the third:
as already stated in other posts in here average joe a2b'ing is not that much of a prob to me. he shouldn't be able to imo, yeah, but i usually not more spot him as a threat just because of a2b (though his performance with a2b is usually much higher already than without).
but at least if one of those "elites" jump onto such a build, totally knowing what he's doing, that point about "building-skills" turns into "exploiting/abusing" a broken/as op known mechanic to me. i can't respect that, sorry.
in short: i talk about the horses that could win the race without doping, but get doped though