LOLz... - 40 power levels have nothing to do with the Battle Cloak, it was set because of Warbird Sig Abilities... Cryptic have consider using - 20 pwr levels instead while both Fed and KDF testers agreed it would be more OP due to the effectiveness of the sig abilities so the dev's changed it.
I was there beta testing the Romulan faction in pre-LoR on the tribble server while u still could not or don't want to figure out how to spec ur Fed toon well in PvP against KDF players on the holodeck... I know alot of Fed PvP players that can withstand a powerful alpha strike from even the best offensive KDF players while u can't last 0.2 sec into a match... which is why u still complaining to this day and now playing as a Fedmulan.
Besides the loss of -40 pwr levels because of the Warbird Sig abilities, Romulan Warbirds has no disadvantage what so ever in any other Ships stats... All Warbirds have full Boff Statiions with most having a uni Boff Station... Hull, Shield, Turn Rate that is comparable to Fed Ships plus a Battle Cloak and top it off the dev's add Captain and BOff's space traits that superior to any KDF and Fed space traits combined.
What does the KDF ships have overall advantage with Cloaks?... A first strike option for 5 sec, and what happen if that fail against ppl that knows how to survive an alpha strike (which obviously u can't)... BoP's have less weapons, weak hull, weak shield mod., 1 less boff ability, but can recloak in combat... Raptors have weak turn rates and weak shields, can't recloak... which only makes Battle Cruiser the most effective overall KDF ship type despite having weaker hull and/or Shield Mod (Bortas) but like the raptor it too cannot cloak in combat.
Again. I will put in simple words if u still don't understand what i type above since my engrish typing skills is poor (engrish is not my first language)
Romulan Battle Cloak on Warbirds with stats of those of Fed ships, Sig abilities at the expense of Power levels, excellent BOff's space traits that can boast Romulan Battle Cloaks dmg abilities. Rom Warbirds can Cloak in Combat.
KDF Cloaks on Warships with stats less durable than Fed ships, Most KDF ships cannot Cloak in Combat, No KDF BOff's to increase effectiveness to stealth dmg abilities.
Despite the myth around the Fed side about KDF ships, the KDF does not have more powerful offensive war vessels than Fed or Rom in fact the KDF only have a few ships that can match them.
Reading comprehension lacking?... please re read it.. the part about the power creep making the 40 power issue not really effecting much due to power creep. All I did was point out an attempt to try to balance...
Yet you still wont admit that your cloak is not balanced as well.. NO CLOAK is balanced vs non cloak.. its that simple.
the ability to cloak.. even standard cloak is a major advantage.. the ability to dictate when how the fight will start is HUGE...
Maybe if you couldn't self buff before uncloaking it would make it a little more balanced.. but the ability to pick when and where with full dps buffing before even deloaking is a advantage that you KDF player try and try in marginalize.
The -40 power level was there as a overall balance for battle cloak and sig power... /sigh
I didn't ask if you'd seen a Raider in Arena I asked if you played a Raider in the Arena? There's a world of difference and no the pilot will not make up for the powercreep unless you're talking about fighting players who don't know the mechanics b/c of lack of experience.
I would dog fight in Arenas w/my Sci toon Xeve and my Tac toon Mipol. I pretty much would only PuG and did well more often then not. That ended around the time Feds got pets w/TB spam (not to mention phaser spam) which at the time were broken and PH/APO wouldn't break their lock (Pre-Fleet Stations fyi). It was a playstyle option that's long gone. Fed Tacs had higher uptime on their Tac Boff powers and more damage potential from that and the extra boff/weapon slot and the Raiders had agility, escapability, and Boff layout diversity. In a team environment the Fed Tacs relied on allies for most repairs w/the exception of the slightly slower escort w/nice ensign/sci layout. There were a great variety of ways to play Raiders, they just had less potential then the Fed counterparts, it was not a matter of trying to do something they weren't designed for.
Quite frankly you come across as completely ill informed. The power balance in PvP switched significantly in the Fed's favor around the release of the 1st batch of C-Store ships. They were designed as pay for power, but the devs were much less open about that b/c it was a Pay2Play sub based game at the time.
While having the initiative of 1st strike is advantageous and would end badly vs those who didn't prepare for it, it was something that could be absorbed and countered. I know this b/c I would KvK and b/c quite frankly there were times not to start cloaked b/c by the time shields came up 2/3 of the hull would be gone. Many PuG players at that time on the Fed side didn't start w/a defensive and counterstrike mindset, so they would explode quickly.
Teamplay wise the Fed playstyle just took a more coordination then the coordination to focus fire and slight cross rep the KDF did. So the learning curve was a bit higher, but so was the potential. Keep in mind at this time players had to manually form teams in matches (so no auto team chat in zone) many were using the Cryptic provided voice comms (which is another set of lolz discussion). In the end Feds had advantages, but many casual players (some are just anti-social lets face it) did not give it a chance.
I suggest you actually fly Raiders in the Arena for yourself. See how much time you spend in the fight and if the time away hurts your team.
If you want to do an experiment try coordinating a KvF Arena with the restriction of no Rommulans (captains, boffs, ships or consoles), also only common gear and doffs. But, ask one of the better Fed Fleets that are still around to play against w/a set of KDF Vets that are still around to team with. The common gear is to reduce other factors into the equation. Then switch roles if possible. You just have too much bad theory crafting going on tbh and could use some practical experience.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Starfleet has access to that advantage in three ship classes and a whole attached subfaction of Romulans with even better cloaking.
Given that the feds where never intended to have cloaking by their creator, even though the IP controllers did eventually allow special circumstances to further or enrich plot storyline.
As to cloaking being an advantage. Of course it is. Nobody has actually said it wasnt.
We have just been accused alot of doing so in a few posts.
We KDF have been saying that our cloaking has never been OP an certainly not in the over inflated sense expressed in the forums by some. Cloaking is not an Iwin button. It doesnt automatically ensure victory. Only the feds have believed that false Information since the first crossfaction pvp days.
It is an advantage towards that goal though, just like any other valued piece of equipment used in pvp. Pvp because the saying that cloaking is pointless in pve is as old as cloaking ingame, it must b3 true. I certainly find it so.
Its a tool. A means to an end in combat like many others that exist ingame. For the KDF, and more so the Romulans, a tool that we have had use of for a long time but one the hero feds do not proliferate use in due to morality and other lore related reasons.
A useful tool that for two thirds of KDF vessel classes has been stated publically to extract a payment of design to have innately endowed as to be true to the IP lore. Some of these handicaps have been stated as turn or shield modifier rating related. Only the Devs can accurately say.
The feds too pay a handicap to have cloaking, though not in stats or attribute scores, but in that they must use a device to facilitate cloak and it must take up a console slot.
While the first release of fed cloakers had innate cloaking built into its design they all had one less console slot. When cloaking went Universal console extra console slots where added to hold the device.
Hardly a glaring inbalance if both parties pay for their cloaking. Feds pay in an added console slot to use a device, which is touted as a henious imbalance since its either use the cloaking device or a useful console which could boost a system,etc.
We KDF lose on the very base stats those preciuos consoles often used to buff those systems. Thats a heck of a handicap to have innate cloaking.
Fed ships have no stat or attribute handicap in any form, use cloaking as a console slot, and have been given an extra space to accomidate its use. To give them back innate cloaking is to give them cloaking with no price what so ever at this point. That would be unfair to the other factions who do pay for cloaking in some fashion. Being feds doesnt mean you get power without payment evidently, just like the rest of us it seems.
Thats is ultimately my deepest reason for fighting these innane fed " I want, am entitled, or otherwise deserve for the sake of balance" cry posts and some near immortal threads (galaxy anyone) becuase they come off as nothing more than petty jealousy hidden behind psuedo-logical rants and persistantly annoying threads that pop up every few months like herpes. Is it because you cant share the IP with different fans of it? Created by it like feds.
I didn't ask if you'd seen a Raider in Arena I asked if you played a Raider in the Arena? There's a world of difference and no the pilot will not make up for the powercreep unless you're talking about fighting players who don't know the mechanics b/c of lack of experience.
I would dog fight in Arenas w/my Sci toon Xeve and my Tac toon Mipol. I pretty much would only PuG and did well more often then not. That ended around the time Feds got pets w/TB spam (not to mention phaser spam) which at the time were broken and PH/APO wouldn't break their lock (Pre-Fleet Stations fyi). It was a playstyle option that's long gone. Fed Tacs had higher uptime on their Tac Boff powers and more damage potential from that and the extra boff/weapon slot and the Raiders had agility, escapability, and Boff layout diversity. In a team environment the Fed Tacs relied on allies for most repairs w/the exception of the slightly slower escort w/nice ensign/sci layout. There were a great variety of ways to play Raiders, they just had less potential then the Fed counterparts, it was not a matter of trying to do something they weren't designed for.
Quite frankly you come across as completely ill informed. The power balance in PvP switched significantly in the Fed's favor around the release of the 1st batch of C-Store ships. They were designed as pay for power, but the devs were much less open about that b/c it was a Pay2Play sub based game at the time.
While having the initiative of 1st strike is advantageous and would end badly vs those who didn't prepare for it, it was something that could be absorbed and countered. I know this b/c I would KvK and b/c quite frankly there were times not to start cloaked b/c by the time shields came up 2/3 of the hull would be gone. Many PuG players at that time on the Fed side didn't start w/a defensive and counterstrike mindset, so they would explode quickly.
Teamplay wise the Fed playstyle just took a more coordination then the coordination to focus fire and slight cross rep the KDF did. So the learning curve was a bit higher, but so was the potential. Keep in mind at this time players had to manually form teams in matches (so no auto team chat in zone) many were using the Cryptic provided voice comms (which is another set of lolz discussion). In the end Feds had advantages, but many casual players (some are just anti-social lets face it) did not give it a chance.
I suggest you actually fly Raiders in the Arena for yourself. See how much time you spend in the fight and if the time away hurts your team.
If you want to do an experiment try coordinating a KvF Arena with the restriction of no Rommulans (captains, boffs, ships or consoles), also only common gear and doffs. But, ask one of the better Fed Fleets that are still around to play against w/a set of KDF Vets that are still around to team with. The common gear is to reduce other factors into the equation. Then switch roles if possible. You just have too much bad theory crafting going on tbh and could use some practical experience.
I'm sorry, but i occasionally play a raider in pvp. I play it as a vaper, because everything else is simply less effective. I don't dogfight, but i can strike roughly every 2-3 minutes and usually get a kill or heavily damage an opponent.
What you want is a playstyle that's not possible anymore, due to power creep. Just because the raider role got more focused doesn't mean it isn't viable anymore. But alas, if you don't enjoy this playstyle the raider isn't for you anymore, sadly.
Starfleet has access to that advantage in three ship classes and a whole attached subfaction of Romulans with even better cloaking.
Given that the feds where never intended to have cloaking by their creator, even though the IP controllers did eventually allow special circumstances to further or enrich plot storyline.
As to cloaking being an advantage. Of course it is. Nobody has actually said it wasnt.
We have just been accused alot of doing so in a few posts.
We KDF have been saying that our cloaking has never been OP an certainly not in the over inflated sense expressed in the forums by some. Cloaking is not an Iwin button. It doesnt automatically ensure victory. Only the feds have believed that false Information since the first crossfaction pvp days.
It is an advantage towards that goal though, just like any other valued piece of equipment used in pvp. Pvp because the saying that cloaking is pointless in pve is as old as cloaking ingame, it must b3 true. I certainly find it so.
Its a tool. A means to an end in combat like many others that exist ingame. For the KDF, and more so the Romulans, a tool that we have had use of for a long time but one the hero feds do not proliferate use in due to morality and other lore related reasons.
A useful tool that for two thirds of KDF vessel classes has been stated publically to extract a payment of design to have innately endowed as to be true to the IP lore. Some of these handicaps have been stated as turn or shield modifier rating related. Only the Devs can accurately say.
The feds too pay a handicap to have cloaking, though not in stats or attribute scores, but in that they must use a device to facilitate cloak and it must take up a console slot.
While the first release of fed cloakers had innate cloaking built into its design they all had one less console slot. When cloaking went Universal console extra console slots where added to hold the device.
Hardly a glaring inbalance if both parties pay for their cloaking. Feds pay in an added console slot to use a device, which is touted as a henious imbalance since its either use the cloaking device or a useful console which could boost a system,etc.
We KDF lose on the very base stats those preciuos consoles often used to buff those systems. Thats a heck of a handicap to have innate cloaking.
Fed ships have no stat or attribute handicap in any form, use cloaking as a console slot, and have been given an extra space to accomidate its use. To give them back innate cloaking is to give them cloaking with no price what so ever at this point. That would be unfair to the other factions who do pay for cloaking in some fashion. Being feds doesnt mean you get power without payment evidently, just like the rest of us it seems.
Thats is ultimately my deepest reason for fighting these innane fed " I want, am entitled, or otherwise deserve for the sake of balance" cry posts and some near immortal threads (galaxy anyone) becuase they come off as nothing more than petty jealousy hidden behind psuedo-logical rants and persistantly annoying threads that pop up every few months like herpes. Is it because you cant share the IP with different fans of it? Created by it like feds.
I totally agree, though counting the romulans towards the fed faction is a bit far fetched. Roms are basically their own faction, the only difference being that they can actually use every captain ship of the allied faction which isn't really possible for their allies ... really another great ballance decision. The problem i see isn't really the KDF having any form of cloak, but the enormous power creep that was introduced with LoR to enhance the cloaks potential, making battle cloak a very scary tool, that can be used very frequently. And of course the romulans pay nothing for it, because the -40 innate power loss is there to compensate for their sing abilities ...
Reading comprehension lacking?... please re read it.. the part about the power creep making the 40 power issue not really effecting much due to power creep. All I did was point out an attempt to try to balance...
Yet you still wont admit that your cloak is not balanced as well.. NO CLOAK is balanced vs non cloak.. its that simple.
the ability to cloak.. even standard cloak is a major advantage.. the ability to dictate when how the fight will start is HUGE...
Maybe if you couldn't self buff before uncloaking it would make it a little more balanced.. but the ability to pick when and where with full dps buffing before even deloaking is a advantage that you KDF player try and try in marginalize.
The -40 power level was there as a overall balance for battle cloak and sig power... /sigh
Like i said b4 KDF ships only real advantage is from a First Strike Option from Cloaks, Most KDF vessels unlike Romulan Warbirds do NOT have the stats to stand toe to toe against newer updated comparable Fed ship class in a non-cloak prolong fight.
-40 power level was only to balance out Sig Ability and does NOT relate to any balance of the Warbird Battle Cloak since Romulans Warbirds were model after the Peghqu' Heavy Destroyer in terms of the Battle Cloak with Full BOff stations and BOff's Abilities and the Peghqu' does not suffer any power loss since it has no Sig Abilities while having a Battle Cloak.
Yes Cloaks can dictate how would a fight start, but being prepared to counter Cloaks Ambushes also dictates how would either turn or end a fight which is something u can't cope with how the way u complain and cry about Cloak Ambushes. I run a Fleet B'rel with paper thin hull and very weak shield mod. and have Fed Rommies trying to Cloak Ambush me a bunch of times when i was attacking their teammates, and in the end they failed their attemped Romulan Alpha strike kill from their cloaks because i have expected and prepared for such things... which is something u don't do.
I totally agree, though counting the romulans towards the fed faction is a bit far fetched. Roms are basically their own faction, the only difference being that they can actually use every captain ship of the allied faction which isn't really possible for their allies ... really another great ballance decision. The problem i see isn't really the KDF having any form of cloak, but the enormous power creep that was introduced with LoR to enhance the cloaks potential, making battle cloak a very scary tool, that can be used very frequently. And of course the romulans pay nothing for it, because the -40 innate power loss is there to compensate for their sing abilities ...
Battle Cloak has not really changed for the KDF. Its still only on Raiders and the vet ship, plus we Klingons did not recieve all the rom bonuses to improve battle cloak raiders.
Battle Cloak has not really changed for the KDF. Its still only on Raiders and the vet ship, plus we Klingons did not recieve all the rom bonuses to improve battle cloak raiders.
I know. What i actually wanted to say is, that in many ways this cloak envy is furthered by the rom faction and misdirected back at the kdf. Probably because of some deep seated trauma ... The one thing i can understand is, that fed players want some kind of gimmick power that is innate to the faction. Not some blant advantage in hull strength or shield mods, or whatever. Sadly, as you already said most unique features are more or less readily available (usually for a premium), to the other factions. No wonder the avenger and the re-released patrol escort seem to be so sought after, when every f2p content feds get are rather generic ships. Iconic but game mechanics wise very generic.
I know. What i actually wanted to say is, that in many ways this cloak envy is furthered by the rom faction and misdirected back at the kdf. Probably because of some deep seated trauma ... The one thing i can understand is, that fed players want some kind of gimmick power that is innate to the faction. Not some blant advantage in hull strength or shield mods, or whatever. Sadly, as you already said most unique features are more or less readily available (usually for a premium), to the other factions. No wonder the avenger and the re-released patrol escort seem to be so sought after, when every f2p content feds get are rather generic ships. Iconic but game mechanics wise very generic.
It may be time for factional traits in the game. Traits linked directly to a faction instead of to a particular race in said faction.
For example Star Fleet could have a trait that improves their Science capabilities.
The KDF could have something that improves Tactical, and the Romulans an engineering based slant.
If that is not enough, then increase the factional trait for StarFleet so it effects both Science and Engineering.
It may be time for factional traits in the game. Traits linked directly to a faction instead of to a particular race in said faction.
For example Star Fleet could have a trait that improves their Science capabilities.
The KDF could have something that improves Tactical, and the Romulans an engineering based slant.
If that is not enough, then increase the factional trait for StarFleet so it effects both Science and Engineering.
Not a bad idea.
My point has always been revolving around the factions' diversity, regardless if it's tied to certain species that fall into a faction or based on the faction itslef. I don't care if someone thinks someone else has an edge over sth., there always will be people that complain about everything and anything. You can't just go and listen to any random guy/gal on the internet.
I don't want Feds to have KDF stuff, I don't want KDF to have Rom stuff and I don't want Roms to have Fed stuff. It's as simple as that. Every faction needs to have it's own distinguished flavor.
PVP....Yeah, not so relevant. Sorry PVP guys, nothing personal - in fact I'm the first one to say that we need a quality level of PVP in an MMO, with all the bells and whistles. It can bring hours upon horus of prolongued enjoyment from a game.
However, fixing PVP here would require restructuring everything from the root up - and that's quite a larger endeavor than these almost cosmetic touches that are done to separate the factions from eachother.
The first question we have to answer is why do uncloaked ship captians not want to fight cloaked enemys
The cloaked ships have more firepower /they get first shot ......the uncloaked ship generally goes boom
not very fun for the guy going boom.....So he says bye not comming back..in general this is the problem
It has to be just as easy to detect as it is to cloak or the mechnics break down and the players quit
the costs to detect or cloak and the game skills must also be equal to use either side
The goal is to get players to ...................play
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The thing is the whole faction diversity is already starting to phase out.
Romulan with Battle Cloaks for all factions.
Mogh vs Avenger a cloaking ship with the same stats as the non cloaking ship.
The cross faction teams in pvp.
The end to the Klingon / Federation war..
It seems that "factions" maybe a thing on the past. That we will have this single faction end game. At least they sure seem to be pointing in that direction.
So at that point.. what will separate the "factions". Ship flavor? Races?.. or will it come to a point that faction really wont matter at all?
After all what new end game content was faction specific? Borg, Voth, Undine.. all of them are joint operation...with so called enemies even when KDF and Feds were actively at war they were doing joint ops vs Borg and Voth.
Maybe a way to "balance" the factions is to allow everyone to use everything in a big ol happy Alpha quadrant family.... not saying I agree with this.. but it would shut down the faction imbalance threads pretty darn fast. Make new content, new ships much more easy to do if all factions got them.
I do not believe in making PvP "politically correct". PvP by its nature is dangerous because of the human element being in charge of the enemy and someone must die in pvp.
Those who go into PvP and die to the decloak alpha strike and complain thats its just unfair because the attack was just a huge suprise are going to complain just as loudly if they died to a non-cloaked alpha strike. Giving them a very easy peasy way to overcome the advantage of another is not going to change things.
I say give the feds a push button sensor sensor ability out to 12km in a 90 degree arc forward with a CD and restrictions the same as standard cloaking to test the theory. It'll be less than a week before the complaints that it is not enough arise.
No, the current skill system favors detection over concealment and that is a balanced affair in my opinion
As to "we are all one big happy family why not just make everything availible to everyone".
No. Its that belief that has made STO already just feel like bluegreen versus redgreen. It devalues the need to even bother playing much less put thoughts into your decision of character creation and gameplay.
Factional differences foster gameplay in fan driven games.
I do not believe in making PvP "politically correct". PvP by its nature is dangerous because of the human element being in charge of the enemy and someone must die in pvp.
Those who go into PvP and die to the decloak alpha strike and complain thats its just unfair because the attack was just a huge suprise are going to complain just as loudly if they died to a non-cloaked alpha strike. Giving them a very easy peasy way to overcome the advantage of another is not going to change things.
I say give the feds a push button sensor sensor ability out to 12km in a 90 degree arc forward with a CD and restrictions the same as standard cloaking to test the theory. It'll be less than a week before the complaints that it is not enough arise.
No, the current skill system favors detection over concealment and that is a balanced affair in my opinion
As to "we are all one big happy family why not just make everything availible to everyone".
No. Its that belief that has made STO already just feel like bluegreen versus redgreen. It devalues the need to even bother playing much less put thoughts into your decision of character creation and gameplay.
Factional differences foster gameplay in fan driven games.
I'm sorry but this assumption is totally BS...
Look at every MMO with a stealth class (the ol joke world of rogue craft)... there are massive complaints about HIGH damage class that come out of invisibility and kill target before they can even react. You do not hear the same complaints about high dps non-stealth class's. The closest argument may be high dps range vs melee.. the risk vs reward. STO does not have the melee vs range debate... but it sure has the invisibility vs non-invisibility.
The issue with STO is the gap between cloak and non-cloak is sooo minor that it gives the cloak much more of a advantage. You do not hear complaining about any non cloaking kdf ships.. given all romulans cloak can really compare them.
Those who go into PvP and die to the decloak alpha strike and complain thats its just unfair because the attack was just a huge suprise are going to complain just as loudly if they died to a non-cloaked alpha strike. Giving them a very easy peasy way to overcome the advantage of another is not going to change things.
No, i don't complain when i die, but i do if that captain can simply zip away by activating a single console. The reduced hull and shield mods of raiders don't really play a huge roll if you are too far away to actually be shot at. Couple that with the reduced cd on their cloak and the risk reward ratio is again pretty skewed.
Decloaking requires a huge amount of dedication and if you are not willing to do that you need at least a teammate that will. If you don't have that, then you are just **** out of luck. And it's not like you can somehow prepare in advance for that situation. I would be using decloaking tools if i wouldn't be totally hampering my ability to fullfill my role as dps/healer/whathaveyou. The ablity to, at least in a somewhat reduced fashion, detect cloaked enemy vessels would be nice. Limit the detection range, make it a mode the ship will fall into if activated, skew with the ships powerlevels. Just make it something that's temporary and can be controlled by the player.
The first question we have to answer is why do uncloaked ship captians not want to fight cloaked enemys
The cloaked ships have more firepower /they get first shot ......the uncloaked ship generally goes boom
not very fun for the guy going boom.....So he says bye not comming back..in general this is the problem
It has to be just as easy to detect as it is to cloak or the mechnics break down and the players quit
the costs to detect or cloak and the game skills must also be equal to use either side
The goal is to get players to ...................play
To answer your first question, with my humble opinion ofcourse, - incompetence. And believe me, I'm not saying this lightly - I'm saying it from experience.
Most people on these boards (these boards, not STO in general - I have hundreds of fleeties that treat the game differently) are heavily obsessed with DPS, which for a game with broken PvP and an overwhealming PvE focus - especially having the PvE end game passable with 5k DPS, is quite an interseting anomaly. I've heard people call it peer pressure.
Back to my point - those that are obsessed with raw DPS consider speccing in stealth detection or using Boff and console abilities a waste. They want to jump in PVP with the same setup they generally use in PvE. That's why some uncloaked players don't like fighting cloakers.
I've mentioned this before - I currently have 5 Starfleet ships that have no issues detecting stealthed oponents in Ker'rat for ex. Probably soon to be 6, since I got the new PER and it has the potential to do so as well, once I finish gearing it up.
When I'm in those ships, the cloaker stands no chance. I always have at least 1 torpedo launcher on my ships. I see him, he's cloaked and unshielded (Scimitar excluded) - in a matter of seconds he's gone. The only way he stands a chance is if it happens to be a seasoned PVP-er with the gut intuition to react before me and engage before I react. And there's no guarantee that he'll get the kill after that first opening.
Also thins incompetence I'm referring to it's a consequence of the F vs F queues. Those same people that went for sheer DPS and didn't want to make balanced builds or builds that at least could detect cloaking ships jumped to F vs F and rarely fought against KDF.
So, simply put - they lack practice. Years have gone by and they only fought other non-cloaked Feds. Then came the Romulans and we had the same whineage we're experiencing now right after LoR, because F vs F was no longer cloaker-free. And now, they made the PvP queues mixed so we have another rain of tears because now it will be even harder to not encounter a cloaked ship in pug PvP.
Me? I despise mixed queues. I despised F vs F and KDF vs KDF queues. Never joined them, never will. It totally kills the fun out of PvP for me. So I fought against KDF on my Feds instead, learned and adapted. The cloak is not OP itself, not even the Romulan one. One just needs to know what he/she's doing.
As for players quitting and not doing PvP - I can tell you why I'm not doing it anymore:
1. Reputation grinds. I get the need for rep. and all, but I work at my own pace. If I don't, I risk turning it into a grind, which is not enjoyable and more like a job. Granted, I'm not sure how the rep. passives nerf affected this yet, but before S9 if you wanted to be competitive with the "big dogs" you needed to complete your grinds. And I do reps slow. Because sometimes I want to do foundry. Sometimes I want to waste time in the exploration clusters. Sometimes I just want to fly around in space admiring the awesomness of my ship. :cool: So when reps came, PvP suffered.
2. Lockbox cheese. Releasing OP consoles, OP traits and such that widely affect PvP in the lockboxes. It partially boils down to point 1 i made - i need to put myslef through grind, even if it's only EC grind to pay for these rather expensive items on the market. Either that or shell out the cash, which is P2W and I don't support it. So PvP suffered.
3. Balance between ships. This one was the big reason for me. Currently at least half, if not more, of the ships designated as Tier 5/end-game ships are useless in PvP. The only thing I could do in PvP with the Galaxy in my sig. is to die. In order for me to have any benefit from PvP in a Galaxy, I need that KDF mission - "Die 10 times", because that's about the only thing the ship can do - die.
So when I can't take any T5 ship that costs cash and I happen to like in PvP, PvP suffers.
^ I'm fairly certain that there a lot of people that don't do it because of at least one, if not all of these reasons.
Oh and just for the record, I still find it extremely hillarious how whenever things get nerfed everyone rages at the PvP and PvPers, but when they perceive something to be imbalanced or not like it - they all jump to PvP as an argument to make their points. Hillarious. :P
Oh and just for the record, I still find it extremely hillarious how whenever things get nerfed everyone rages at the PvP and PvPers, but when they perceive something to be imbalanced or not like it - they all jump to PvP as an argument to make their points. Hillarious. :P
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
To answer your first question, with my humble opinion ofcourse, - incompetence. And believe me, I'm not saying this lightly - I'm saying it from experience.
Most people on these boards (these boards, not STO in general - I have hundreds of fleeties that treat the game differently) are heavily obsessed with DPS, which for a game with broken PvP and an overwhealming PvE focus - especially having the PvE end game passable with 5k DPS, is quite an interseting anomaly. I've heard people call it peer pressure.
Back to my point - those that are obsessed with raw DPS consider speccing in stealth detection or using Boff and console abilities a waste. They want to jump in PVP with the same setup they generally use in PvE. That's why some uncloaked players don't like fighting cloakers.
I've mentioned this before - I currently have 5 Starfleet ships that have no issues detecting stealthed oponents in Ker'rat for ex. Probably soon to be 6, since I got the new PER and it has the potential to do so as well, once I finish gearing it up.
When I'm in those ships, the cloaker stands no chance. I always have at least 1 torpedo launcher on my ships. I see him, he's cloaked and unshielded (Scimitar excluded) - in a matter of seconds he's gone. The only way he stands a chance is if it happens to be a seasoned PVP-er with the gut intuition to react before me and engage before I react. And there's no guarantee that he'll get the kill after that first opening.
Also thins incompetence I'm referring to it's a consequence of the F vs F queues. Those same people that went for sheer DPS and didn't want to make balanced builds or builds that at least could detect cloaking ships jumped to F vs F and rarely fought against KDF.
So, simply put - they lack practice. Years have gone by and they only fought other non-cloaked Feds. Then came the Romulans and we had the same whineage we're experiencing now right after LoR, because F vs F was no longer cloaker-free. And now, they made the PvP queues mixed so we have another rain of tears because now it will be even harder to not encounter a cloaked ship in pug PvP.
Me? I despise mixed queues. I despised F vs F and KDF vs KDF queues. Never joined them, never will. It totally kills the fun out of PvP for me. So I fought against KDF on my Feds instead, learned and adapted. The cloak is not OP itself, not even the Romulan one. One just needs to know what he/she's doing.
As for players quitting and not doing PvP - I can tell you why I'm not doing it anymore:
1. Reputation grinds. I get the need for rep. and all, but I work at my own pace. If I don't, I risk turning it into a grind, which is not enjoyable and more like a job. Granted, I'm not sure how the rep. passives nerf affected this yet, but before S9 if you wanted to be competitive with the "big dogs" you needed to complete your grinds. And I do reps slow. Because sometimes I want to do foundry. Sometimes I want to waste time in the exploration clusters. Sometimes I just want to fly around in space admiring the awesomness of my ship. :cool: So when reps came, PvP suffered.
2. Lockbox cheese. Releasing OP consoles, OP traits and such that widely affect PvP in the lockboxes. It partially boils down to point 1 i made - i need to put myslef through grind, even if it's only EC grind to pay for these rather expensive items on the market. Either that or shell out the cash, which is P2W and I don't support it. So PvP suffered.
3. Balance between ships. This one was the big reason for me. Currently at least half, if not more, of the ships designated as Tier 5/end-game ships are useless in PvP. The only thing I could do in PvP with the Galaxy in my sig. is to die. In order for me to have any benefit from PvP in a Galaxy, I need that KDF mission - "Die 10 times", because that's about the only thing the ship can do - die.
So when I can't take any T5 ship that costs cash and I happen to like in PvP, PvP suffers.
^ I'm fairly certain that there a lot of people that don't do it because of at least one, if not all of these reasons.
Oh and just for the record, I still find it extremely hillarious how whenever things get nerfed everyone rages at the PvP and PvPers, but when they perceive something to be imbalanced or not like it - they all jump to PvP as an argument to make their points. Hillarious. :P
...Okay, maybe you're not as much of a moron as I thought. Even if you do like Klingons.
This actually makes sense. And you're probably right. Still though...
I do think battlecloaks are a bigger deal than people are thinking. At least if you're not cripplingly overspecialized into stealth detection. See, a cloaked opponent completely controls the terms of the engagement. It begins when he wants it to, and it ends the moment he decides he's had enough. There's nothing you can do against a cloaked enemy, even if you know exactly where he is. That is, unless you have specific abilities designed to counter it, which, again, is overspecialization and takes away from your other options.
Regardless, I generally don't PvP, simply because it's punishing, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to rise to the top. Either way, though, I have noticed something. Klingons obviously aren't nearly as powerful as the Romulans, but I would say their ships, equipment, and whatever else are more powerful than Fed stuff. I think this is the trend:
Feds have the most content, but the weakest gear.
Klingons have somewhat less content, but slightly more powerful equipment.
Romulans have really very little content, but hilariously overpowered equipment.
So...content is inversely proportional to OPness?
I dunno. I should note that I don't really care if Klingons are OP. My only real point, if they are, is to stop endlessly whining about how Feds get everything.
No, i don't complain when i die, but i do if that captain can simply zip away by activating a single console. The reduced hull and shield mods of raiders don't really play a huge roll if you are too far away to actually be shot at. Couple that with the reduced cd on their cloak and the risk reward ratio is again pretty skewed.
Decloaking requires a huge amount of dedication and if you are not willing to do that you need at least a teammate that will. If you don't have that, then you are just **** out of luck. And it's not like you can somehow prepare in advance for that situation. I would be using decloaking tools if i wouldn't be totally hampering my ability to fullfill my role as dps/healer/whathaveyou. The ablity to, at least in a somewhat reduced fashion, detect cloaked enemy vessels would be nice. Limit the detection range, make it a mode the ship will fall into if activated, skew with the ships powerlevels. Just make it something that's temporary and can be controlled by the player.
Except they do not zip away due to a single console. Cloaking does not increase speed.
The reduced shield and reduced hull play exactly into the risk of a BoP attacking a target. When the decloak attack fails, and the do often, the counter attack from the target against a BoP escaping into cloak goes against just hull and any buffs that the BoP may have gotten up in those few seconds of failing to kill.
It takes many powers to escape at high speed, cloak is not needed. Even a GalX or Defiant can use an escape power plan to run faster than a slower minded player can react.
Just as a less skilled BoP player can die to a prepared target who counter attacks quickly.
To say they can just zip away due to a single console is untrue and over simplifies the process.
Its not up to the game to accomidate the single player in pvp. I cant always set up a ship to counter tractor beam or counter Scramble sensors or many types of builds. That does not mean the game has to be changed just to offset my limit in choices.
If that BoP has focused on Alpha strike and Escape then its ability to linger in combat is way weak, meaning that if you can keep it in place it will die.
Players can not build a ship to cover all situations in combat or protect against the same.
Cloaking detection does exist in the sensor skill, one could spend points in it if one fears cloaking attacks while solo pvping. Of course its easier to offset cloak with a team that has more design towards detection. Teamplay is the core of PvP and the farther one gets from team play the less able a single player is able to survive as no single player can be every class at once.
That whole post reeks of the "Why should I change my designs to offset an enemy's advantages" mentality which has long riddled pvp with silly requests to offset poor choice or lack of experience with game mechanics.
Look at every MMO with a stealth class (the ol joke world of rogue craft)... there are massive complaints about HIGH damage class that come out of invisibility and kill target before they can even react. You do not hear the same complaints about high dps non-stealth class's. The closest argument may be high dps range vs melee.. the risk vs reward. STO does not have the melee vs range debate... but it sure has the invisibility vs non-invisibility.
The issue with STO is the gap between cloak and non-cloak is sooo minor that it gives the cloak much more of a advantage. You do not hear complaining about any non cloaking kdf ships.. given all romulans cloak can really compare them.
Bullshot. STO had a whole season where players complained about non-cloakers one-shotting other players.
The cloaking issue against the KDF is also BS. The abilities exist readily ingame to counter cloaking, whole consoles exist just to this Purpose.
Standard cloak only allows one surprise attack attempt in combat, and it does not gaurrauntee a win.
Battle cloaking only gives one suprise attack and the option to try to hide and flee when it fails.
I now understand why we never see the more elite pvpers in these threads complaining about the woes of cloaking, and I think Horizon is dead on correct in his view of the playerbase that complains as loudly as you all do about the balance of pvp on any level.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Number one problem with ship combat in STO is very very strait forward.
Far far far to much damage is being delt across the board.
Ships come in pretty much three flavors.. low damage and nearly impossible to kill, or to damd much damage, and melting it seems at first strong breeze. Ad flavor three.... very pretty, but useless in either PvP or PvE.
Stratagy? Tactics? Manuver?... STO had the potential to be an awesome simulation of trek style starship combat. It's not ever reached that potential, and with the way the devs keep power creeping the game it never will.
The players with the programable devices with they pre built one key macro's have all the advantages over anyone who does not have said devices in PvP. In PvE the devs have to make bosses stupidly powerfull to keep players from simply melting the target.. Yes yes, were all supposed to be hero's capable of taking on the entire galaxy with both hands tided behind our backs....
This Is Booring.
Go into ship PvP kill most any target within 5 seconds... thats on a bad day.. usually 3-4 seconds.
STO as a game stinks on more levels then it shines because of a total lack of thought and planning on the part of the dev team. As a team of designers they've made more egregious errors in game design then a novice board game designer ever would.
And now, they've added a ship to the fed line up that mounts a tail cannon. In the mean time the games other two factions have recieved nothing comparable.
Poor design. Poorer implementation. A lack of thought towards any sort of faction balance in a multi faction MMO. A tatol lack of a decent faction based warfare meta game. After 4 years of STO I think I have finally given this game up as a bad job as I'm tired of waiting for it to actually get better. And the level of greed displayed by cryptic studios is just way over the top. Constantly manipulating the drop rate from the lock boxes to ensure rarity and maximize income is batently immoral. The game is unfortunatly pointy more and more at the e-peen immature crowd of very young players with new bright shineys.. as long as you play the "Good Guys" faction.
Toss in a total disconnect toward player harrassment issues in game in the product social zones, and an apparent nod of approval towards griefing players social non-combat play and..well.. I log in once a week now, and only because I have a LTM. There are far better MMO's out there. I play an Asmodian in **** on a server where my faction is out numbered and out gunned in PvP by at least 3 to 1, and often times as high as 10 to 1 and I find that far far more fun then STO. At least I'm getting a chance to play with my shinies as the underdog faction.
I wish STO were a better game, but its not. Its a very poorly made MMO, and poorly designed game. The only thing keeping it going is the Trek IP.... had Starwars the old republic been made following the same formula, it would be dead as a door nail by now.
As a Klingon faction player its just been one disappointment after another, and at this point I just don't see anything changing. Eventually the IP will pass into the hands of another studio.. I pray the learn from everything cryptic has managed to do totally wrong.
Then they can nerf impulse capacitance cell or give the feds a special power to overcome it.
Cloak does not allow you to zip away quickly, which is what the statement implied. Other factors allow for the fast running.
Bullshot. STO had a whole season where players complained about non-cloakers one-shotting other players.
The cloaking issue against the KDF is also BS. The abilities exist readily ingame to counter cloaking, whole consoles exist just to this Purpose.
Standard cloak only allows one surprise attack attempt in combat, and it does not gaurrauntee a win.
Battle cloaking only gives one suprise attack and the option to try to hide and flee when it fails.
I now understand why we never see the more elite pvpers in these threads complaining about the woes of cloaking, and I think Horizon is dead on correct in his view of the playerbase that complains as loudly as you all do about the balance of pvp on any level.
Nor does cloak detection require a specialized build only to counter. Some players counter cloakers strictly on audio cues alone. Several powers used in everyday builds decloak players easily. Even pets can be used to counter cloakers.
No, the statement has been that feds can field the best snoopers ingame to find cloakers not that snoopers are.the only way to find cloakers.
As well many in this thread are treating standard cloaking the same as battle cloaking thinking and saying the advantage of cloak is the ability to attack and leave at will. Its no wonder cloaking is the Boogeyman of the feds, you all have it built up that way through lack of understanding it seems.
Does anyone else find it ironic that one one had the Federation are crying out for a battle cloaking Defiant/GalX/avenger because vague reasons meanwhile on the other hand they paint BoPs as some sort of evil ruining their lives?
Number one problem with ship combat in STO is very very strait forward.
Far far far to much damage is being delt across the board.
Ships come in pretty much three flavors.. low damage and nearly impossible to kill, or to damd much damage, and melting it seems at first strong breeze. Ad flavor three.... very pretty, but useless in either PvP or PvE.
Stratagy? Tactics? Manuver?... STO had the potential to be an awesome simulation of trek style starship combat. It's not ever reached that potential, and with the way the devs keep power creeping the game it never will.
The players with the programable devices with they pre built one key macro's have all the advantages over anyone who does not have said devices in PvP. In PvE the devs have to make bosses stupidly powerfull to keep players from simply melting the target.. Yes yes, were all supposed to be hero's capable of taking on the entire galaxy with both hands tided behind our backs....
This Is Booring.
Go into ship PvP kill most any target within 5 seconds... thats on a bad day.. usually 3-4 seconds.
STO as a game stinks on more levels then it shines because of a total lack of thought and planning on the part of the dev team. As a team of designers they've made more egregious errors in game design then a novice board game designer ever would.
And now, they've added a ship to the fed line up that mounts a tail cannon. In the mean time the games other two factions have recieved nothing comparable.
Poor design. Poorer implementation. A lack of thought towards any sort of faction balance in a multi faction MMO. A tatol lack of a decent faction based warfare meta game. After 4 years of STO I think I have finally given this game up as a bad job as I'm tired of waiting for it to actually get better. And the level of greed displayed by cryptic studios is just way over the top. Constantly manipulating the drop rate from the lock boxes to ensure rarity and maximize income is batently immoral. The game is unfortunatly pointy more and more at the e-peen immature crowd of very young players with new bright shineys.. as long as you play the "Good Guys" faction.
Toss in a total disconnect toward player harrassment issues in game in the product social zones, and an apparent nod of approval towards griefing players social non-combat play and..well.. I log in once a week now, and only because I have a LTM. There are far better MMO's out there. I play an Asmodian in **** on a server where my faction is out numbered and out gunned in PvP by at least 3 to 1, and often times as high as 10 to 1 and I find that far far more fun then STO. At least I'm getting a chance to play with my shinies as the underdog faction.
I wish STO were a better game, but its not. Its a very poorly made MMO, and poorly designed game. The only thing keeping it going is the Trek IP.... had Starwars the old republic been made following the same formula, it would be dead as a door nail by now.
As a Klingon faction player its just been one disappointment after another, and at this point I just don't see anything changing. Eventually the IP will pass into the hands of another studio.. I pray the learn from everything cryptic has managed to do totally wrong.
Khemaraa Iron Hand sends
I do not know if you have used it but the tail gun is a gimmick weapon. No one sits there and says.. oh let me line up my tail gun so I can shoot you for less damage then my 4 front guns.
It's a cute little gimmick.. the power on the new escort is its boff layout. tac command, li cmd eng, lt cmd uni and a lt sci... having 2x Lt' Commander boffs on a escort is where its power is at.
The only thing that interesting on the tail gun is it has built in rapid fire 1... maybe seeing more weapons in the future with a built in boff skill
as far as the rest of your post I agree.. DPS power creep has always been a issue. compound that with bring able to buff all your weapons before decloaking does not help the issue. Be it alpha striking BOP back in the day to ships balls with a2b bfaw groups.. Balance has never been a strong suit for sto for sure.
There is no harm in asking for it though. Other then people being afraid of change.
Comments
Reading comprehension lacking?... please re read it.. the part about the power creep making the 40 power issue not really effecting much due to power creep. All I did was point out an attempt to try to balance...
Yet you still wont admit that your cloak is not balanced as well.. NO CLOAK is balanced vs non cloak.. its that simple.
the ability to cloak.. even standard cloak is a major advantage.. the ability to dictate when how the fight will start is HUGE...
Maybe if you couldn't self buff before uncloaking it would make it a little more balanced.. but the ability to pick when and where with full dps buffing before even deloaking is a advantage that you KDF player try and try in marginalize.
The -40 power level was there as a overall balance for battle cloak and sig power... /sigh
I didn't ask if you'd seen a Raider in Arena I asked if you played a Raider in the Arena? There's a world of difference and no the pilot will not make up for the powercreep unless you're talking about fighting players who don't know the mechanics b/c of lack of experience.
I would dog fight in Arenas w/my Sci toon Xeve and my Tac toon Mipol. I pretty much would only PuG and did well more often then not. That ended around the time Feds got pets w/TB spam (not to mention phaser spam) which at the time were broken and PH/APO wouldn't break their lock (Pre-Fleet Stations fyi). It was a playstyle option that's long gone. Fed Tacs had higher uptime on their Tac Boff powers and more damage potential from that and the extra boff/weapon slot and the Raiders had agility, escapability, and Boff layout diversity. In a team environment the Fed Tacs relied on allies for most repairs w/the exception of the slightly slower escort w/nice ensign/sci layout. There were a great variety of ways to play Raiders, they just had less potential then the Fed counterparts, it was not a matter of trying to do something they weren't designed for.
Quite frankly you come across as completely ill informed. The power balance in PvP switched significantly in the Fed's favor around the release of the 1st batch of C-Store ships. They were designed as pay for power, but the devs were much less open about that b/c it was a Pay2Play sub based game at the time.
While having the initiative of 1st strike is advantageous and would end badly vs those who didn't prepare for it, it was something that could be absorbed and countered. I know this b/c I would KvK and b/c quite frankly there were times not to start cloaked b/c by the time shields came up 2/3 of the hull would be gone. Many PuG players at that time on the Fed side didn't start w/a defensive and counterstrike mindset, so they would explode quickly.
Teamplay wise the Fed playstyle just took a more coordination then the coordination to focus fire and slight cross rep the KDF did. So the learning curve was a bit higher, but so was the potential. Keep in mind at this time players had to manually form teams in matches (so no auto team chat in zone) many were using the Cryptic provided voice comms (which is another set of lolz discussion). In the end Feds had advantages, but many casual players (some are just anti-social lets face it) did not give it a chance.
I suggest you actually fly Raiders in the Arena for yourself. See how much time you spend in the fight and if the time away hurts your team.
If you want to do an experiment try coordinating a KvF Arena with the restriction of no Rommulans (captains, boffs, ships or consoles), also only common gear and doffs. But, ask one of the better Fed Fleets that are still around to play against w/a set of KDF Vets that are still around to team with. The common gear is to reduce other factors into the equation. Then switch roles if possible. You just have too much bad theory crafting going on tbh and could use some practical experience.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Given that the feds where never intended to have cloaking by their creator, even though the IP controllers did eventually allow special circumstances to further or enrich plot storyline.
As to cloaking being an advantage. Of course it is. Nobody has actually said it wasnt.
We have just been accused alot of doing so in a few posts.
We KDF have been saying that our cloaking has never been OP an certainly not in the over inflated sense expressed in the forums by some. Cloaking is not an Iwin button. It doesnt automatically ensure victory. Only the feds have believed that false Information since the first crossfaction pvp days.
It is an advantage towards that goal though, just like any other valued piece of equipment used in pvp. Pvp because the saying that cloaking is pointless in pve is as old as cloaking ingame, it must b3 true. I certainly find it so.
Its a tool. A means to an end in combat like many others that exist ingame. For the KDF, and more so the Romulans, a tool that we have had use of for a long time but one the hero feds do not proliferate use in due to morality and other lore related reasons.
A useful tool that for two thirds of KDF vessel classes has been stated publically to extract a payment of design to have innately endowed as to be true to the IP lore. Some of these handicaps have been stated as turn or shield modifier rating related. Only the Devs can accurately say.
The feds too pay a handicap to have cloaking, though not in stats or attribute scores, but in that they must use a device to facilitate cloak and it must take up a console slot.
While the first release of fed cloakers had innate cloaking built into its design they all had one less console slot. When cloaking went Universal console extra console slots where added to hold the device.
Hardly a glaring inbalance if both parties pay for their cloaking. Feds pay in an added console slot to use a device, which is touted as a henious imbalance since its either use the cloaking device or a useful console which could boost a system,etc.
We KDF lose on the very base stats those preciuos consoles often used to buff those systems. Thats a heck of a handicap to have innate cloaking.
Fed ships have no stat or attribute handicap in any form, use cloaking as a console slot, and have been given an extra space to accomidate its use. To give them back innate cloaking is to give them cloaking with no price what so ever at this point. That would be unfair to the other factions who do pay for cloaking in some fashion. Being feds doesnt mean you get power without payment evidently, just like the rest of us it seems.
Thats is ultimately my deepest reason for fighting these innane fed " I want, am entitled, or otherwise deserve for the sake of balance" cry posts and some near immortal threads (galaxy anyone) becuase they come off as nothing more than petty jealousy hidden behind psuedo-logical rants and persistantly annoying threads that pop up every few months like herpes. Is it because you cant share the IP with different fans of it? Created by it like feds.
R.I.P
I'm sorry, but i occasionally play a raider in pvp. I play it as a vaper, because everything else is simply less effective. I don't dogfight, but i can strike roughly every 2-3 minutes and usually get a kill or heavily damage an opponent.
What you want is a playstyle that's not possible anymore, due to power creep. Just because the raider role got more focused doesn't mean it isn't viable anymore. But alas, if you don't enjoy this playstyle the raider isn't for you anymore, sadly.
I totally agree, though counting the romulans towards the fed faction is a bit far fetched. Roms are basically their own faction, the only difference being that they can actually use every captain ship of the allied faction which isn't really possible for their allies ... really another great ballance decision. The problem i see isn't really the KDF having any form of cloak, but the enormous power creep that was introduced with LoR to enhance the cloaks potential, making battle cloak a very scary tool, that can be used very frequently. And of course the romulans pay nothing for it, because the -40 innate power loss is there to compensate for their sing abilities ...
Like i said b4 KDF ships only real advantage is from a First Strike Option from Cloaks, Most KDF vessels unlike Romulan Warbirds do NOT have the stats to stand toe to toe against newer updated comparable Fed ship class in a non-cloak prolong fight.
-40 power level was only to balance out Sig Ability and does NOT relate to any balance of the Warbird Battle Cloak since Romulans Warbirds were model after the Peghqu' Heavy Destroyer in terms of the Battle Cloak with Full BOff stations and BOff's Abilities and the Peghqu' does not suffer any power loss since it has no Sig Abilities while having a Battle Cloak.
Yes Cloaks can dictate how would a fight start, but being prepared to counter Cloaks Ambushes also dictates how would either turn or end a fight which is something u can't cope with how the way u complain and cry about Cloak Ambushes. I run a Fleet B'rel with paper thin hull and very weak shield mod. and have Fed Rommies trying to Cloak Ambush me a bunch of times when i was attacking their teammates, and in the end they failed their attemped Romulan Alpha strike kill from their cloaks because i have expected and prepared for such things... which is something u don't do.
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Battle Cloak has not really changed for the KDF. Its still only on Raiders and the vet ship, plus we Klingons did not recieve all the rom bonuses to improve battle cloak raiders.
R.I.P
I know. What i actually wanted to say is, that in many ways this cloak envy is furthered by the rom faction and misdirected back at the kdf. Probably because of some deep seated trauma ... The one thing i can understand is, that fed players want some kind of gimmick power that is innate to the faction. Not some blant advantage in hull strength or shield mods, or whatever. Sadly, as you already said most unique features are more or less readily available (usually for a premium), to the other factions. No wonder the avenger and the re-released patrol escort seem to be so sought after, when every f2p content feds get are rather generic ships. Iconic but game mechanics wise very generic.
It may be time for factional traits in the game. Traits linked directly to a faction instead of to a particular race in said faction.
For example Star Fleet could have a trait that improves their Science capabilities.
The KDF could have something that improves Tactical, and the Romulans an engineering based slant.
If that is not enough, then increase the factional trait for StarFleet so it effects both Science and Engineering.
R.I.P
Not a bad idea.
My point has always been revolving around the factions' diversity, regardless if it's tied to certain species that fall into a faction or based on the faction itslef. I don't care if someone thinks someone else has an edge over sth., there always will be people that complain about everything and anything. You can't just go and listen to any random guy/gal on the internet.
I don't want Feds to have KDF stuff, I don't want KDF to have Rom stuff and I don't want Roms to have Fed stuff. It's as simple as that. Every faction needs to have it's own distinguished flavor.
PVP....Yeah, not so relevant. Sorry PVP guys, nothing personal - in fact I'm the first one to say that we need a quality level of PVP in an MMO, with all the bells and whistles. It can bring hours upon horus of prolongued enjoyment from a game.
However, fixing PVP here would require restructuring everything from the root up - and that's quite a larger endeavor than these almost cosmetic touches that are done to separate the factions from eachother.
The cloaked ships have more firepower /they get first shot ......the uncloaked ship generally goes boom
not very fun for the guy going boom.....So he says bye not comming back..in general this is the problem
It has to be just as easy to detect as it is to cloak or the mechnics break down and the players quit
the costs to detect or cloak and the game skills must also be equal to use either side
The goal is to get players to ...................play
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Romulan with Battle Cloaks for all factions.
Mogh vs Avenger a cloaking ship with the same stats as the non cloaking ship.
The cross faction teams in pvp.
The end to the Klingon / Federation war..
It seems that "factions" maybe a thing on the past. That we will have this single faction end game. At least they sure seem to be pointing in that direction.
So at that point.. what will separate the "factions". Ship flavor? Races?.. or will it come to a point that faction really wont matter at all?
After all what new end game content was faction specific? Borg, Voth, Undine.. all of them are joint operation...with so called enemies even when KDF and Feds were actively at war they were doing joint ops vs Borg and Voth.
Maybe a way to "balance" the factions is to allow everyone to use everything in a big ol happy Alpha quadrant family.... not saying I agree with this.. but it would shut down the faction imbalance threads pretty darn fast. Make new content, new ships much more easy to do if all factions got them.
Those who go into PvP and die to the decloak alpha strike and complain thats its just unfair because the attack was just a huge suprise are going to complain just as loudly if they died to a non-cloaked alpha strike. Giving them a very easy peasy way to overcome the advantage of another is not going to change things.
I say give the feds a push button sensor sensor ability out to 12km in a 90 degree arc forward with a CD and restrictions the same as standard cloaking to test the theory. It'll be less than a week before the complaints that it is not enough arise.
No, the current skill system favors detection over concealment and that is a balanced affair in my opinion
As to "we are all one big happy family why not just make everything availible to everyone".
No. Its that belief that has made STO already just feel like bluegreen versus redgreen. It devalues the need to even bother playing much less put thoughts into your decision of character creation and gameplay.
Factional differences foster gameplay in fan driven games.
R.I.P
I'm sorry but this assumption is totally BS...
Look at every MMO with a stealth class (the ol joke world of rogue craft)... there are massive complaints about HIGH damage class that come out of invisibility and kill target before they can even react. You do not hear the same complaints about high dps non-stealth class's. The closest argument may be high dps range vs melee.. the risk vs reward. STO does not have the melee vs range debate... but it sure has the invisibility vs non-invisibility.
The issue with STO is the gap between cloak and non-cloak is sooo minor that it gives the cloak much more of a advantage. You do not hear complaining about any non cloaking kdf ships.. given all romulans cloak can really compare them.
No, i don't complain when i die, but i do if that captain can simply zip away by activating a single console. The reduced hull and shield mods of raiders don't really play a huge roll if you are too far away to actually be shot at. Couple that with the reduced cd on their cloak and the risk reward ratio is again pretty skewed.
Decloaking requires a huge amount of dedication and if you are not willing to do that you need at least a teammate that will. If you don't have that, then you are just **** out of luck. And it's not like you can somehow prepare in advance for that situation. I would be using decloaking tools if i wouldn't be totally hampering my ability to fullfill my role as dps/healer/whathaveyou. The ablity to, at least in a somewhat reduced fashion, detect cloaked enemy vessels would be nice. Limit the detection range, make it a mode the ship will fall into if activated, skew with the ships powerlevels. Just make it something that's temporary and can be controlled by the player.
To answer your first question, with my humble opinion ofcourse, - incompetence. And believe me, I'm not saying this lightly - I'm saying it from experience.
Most people on these boards (these boards, not STO in general - I have hundreds of fleeties that treat the game differently) are heavily obsessed with DPS, which for a game with broken PvP and an overwhealming PvE focus - especially having the PvE end game passable with 5k DPS, is quite an interseting anomaly. I've heard people call it peer pressure.
Back to my point - those that are obsessed with raw DPS consider speccing in stealth detection or using Boff and console abilities a waste. They want to jump in PVP with the same setup they generally use in PvE. That's why some uncloaked players don't like fighting cloakers.
I've mentioned this before - I currently have 5 Starfleet ships that have no issues detecting stealthed oponents in Ker'rat for ex. Probably soon to be 6, since I got the new PER and it has the potential to do so as well, once I finish gearing it up.
When I'm in those ships, the cloaker stands no chance. I always have at least 1 torpedo launcher on my ships. I see him, he's cloaked and unshielded (Scimitar excluded) - in a matter of seconds he's gone. The only way he stands a chance is if it happens to be a seasoned PVP-er with the gut intuition to react before me and engage before I react. And there's no guarantee that he'll get the kill after that first opening.
Also thins incompetence I'm referring to it's a consequence of the F vs F queues. Those same people that went for sheer DPS and didn't want to make balanced builds or builds that at least could detect cloaking ships jumped to F vs F and rarely fought against KDF.
So, simply put - they lack practice. Years have gone by and they only fought other non-cloaked Feds. Then came the Romulans and we had the same whineage we're experiencing now right after LoR, because F vs F was no longer cloaker-free. And now, they made the PvP queues mixed so we have another rain of tears because now it will be even harder to not encounter a cloaked ship in pug PvP.
Me? I despise mixed queues. I despised F vs F and KDF vs KDF queues. Never joined them, never will. It totally kills the fun out of PvP for me. So I fought against KDF on my Feds instead, learned and adapted. The cloak is not OP itself, not even the Romulan one. One just needs to know what he/she's doing.
As for players quitting and not doing PvP - I can tell you why I'm not doing it anymore:
1. Reputation grinds. I get the need for rep. and all, but I work at my own pace. If I don't, I risk turning it into a grind, which is not enjoyable and more like a job. Granted, I'm not sure how the rep. passives nerf affected this yet, but before S9 if you wanted to be competitive with the "big dogs" you needed to complete your grinds. And I do reps slow. Because sometimes I want to do foundry. Sometimes I want to waste time in the exploration clusters. Sometimes I just want to fly around in space admiring the awesomness of my ship. :cool: So when reps came, PvP suffered.
2. Lockbox cheese. Releasing OP consoles, OP traits and such that widely affect PvP in the lockboxes. It partially boils down to point 1 i made - i need to put myslef through grind, even if it's only EC grind to pay for these rather expensive items on the market. Either that or shell out the cash, which is P2W and I don't support it. So PvP suffered.
3. Balance between ships. This one was the big reason for me. Currently at least half, if not more, of the ships designated as Tier 5/end-game ships are useless in PvP. The only thing I could do in PvP with the Galaxy in my sig. is to die. In order for me to have any benefit from PvP in a Galaxy, I need that KDF mission - "Die 10 times", because that's about the only thing the ship can do - die.
So when I can't take any T5 ship that costs cash and I happen to like in PvP, PvP suffers.
^ I'm fairly certain that there a lot of people that don't do it because of at least one, if not all of these reasons.
Oh and just for the record, I still find it extremely hillarious how whenever things get nerfed everyone rages at the PvP and PvPers, but when they perceive something to be imbalanced or not like it - they all jump to PvP as an argument to make their points. Hillarious. :P
Ikr?
/10 chars
...Okay, maybe you're not as much of a moron as I thought. Even if you do like Klingons.
This actually makes sense. And you're probably right. Still though...
I do think battlecloaks are a bigger deal than people are thinking. At least if you're not cripplingly overspecialized into stealth detection. See, a cloaked opponent completely controls the terms of the engagement. It begins when he wants it to, and it ends the moment he decides he's had enough. There's nothing you can do against a cloaked enemy, even if you know exactly where he is. That is, unless you have specific abilities designed to counter it, which, again, is overspecialization and takes away from your other options.
Regardless, I generally don't PvP, simply because it's punishing, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to rise to the top. Either way, though, I have noticed something. Klingons obviously aren't nearly as powerful as the Romulans, but I would say their ships, equipment, and whatever else are more powerful than Fed stuff. I think this is the trend:
Feds have the most content, but the weakest gear.
Klingons have somewhat less content, but slightly more powerful equipment.
Romulans have really very little content, but hilariously overpowered equipment.
So...content is inversely proportional to OPness?
I dunno. I should note that I don't really care if Klingons are OP. My only real point, if they are, is to stop endlessly whining about how Feds get everything.
Except they do not zip away due to a single console. Cloaking does not increase speed.
The reduced shield and reduced hull play exactly into the risk of a BoP attacking a target. When the decloak attack fails, and the do often, the counter attack from the target against a BoP escaping into cloak goes against just hull and any buffs that the BoP may have gotten up in those few seconds of failing to kill.
It takes many powers to escape at high speed, cloak is not needed. Even a GalX or Defiant can use an escape power plan to run faster than a slower minded player can react.
Just as a less skilled BoP player can die to a prepared target who counter attacks quickly.
To say they can just zip away due to a single console is untrue and over simplifies the process.
Its not up to the game to accomidate the single player in pvp. I cant always set up a ship to counter tractor beam or counter Scramble sensors or many types of builds. That does not mean the game has to be changed just to offset my limit in choices.
If that BoP has focused on Alpha strike and Escape then its ability to linger in combat is way weak, meaning that if you can keep it in place it will die.
Players can not build a ship to cover all situations in combat or protect against the same.
Cloaking detection does exist in the sensor skill, one could spend points in it if one fears cloaking attacks while solo pvping. Of course its easier to offset cloak with a team that has more design towards detection. Teamplay is the core of PvP and the farther one gets from team play the less able a single player is able to survive as no single player can be every class at once.
That whole post reeks of the "Why should I change my designs to offset an enemy's advantages" mentality which has long riddled pvp with silly requests to offset poor choice or lack of experience with game mechanics.
R.I.P
Bullshot. STO had a whole season where players complained about non-cloakers one-shotting other players.
The cloaking issue against the KDF is also BS. The abilities exist readily ingame to counter cloaking, whole consoles exist just to this Purpose.
Standard cloak only allows one surprise attack attempt in combat, and it does not gaurrauntee a win.
Battle cloaking only gives one suprise attack and the option to try to hide and flee when it fails.
I now understand why we never see the more elite pvpers in these threads complaining about the woes of cloaking, and I think Horizon is dead on correct in his view of the playerbase that complains as loudly as you all do about the balance of pvp on any level.
R.I.P
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Number one problem with ship combat in STO is very very strait forward.
Far far far to much damage is being delt across the board.
Ships come in pretty much three flavors.. low damage and nearly impossible to kill, or to damd much damage, and melting it seems at first strong breeze. Ad flavor three.... very pretty, but useless in either PvP or PvE.
Stratagy? Tactics? Manuver?... STO had the potential to be an awesome simulation of trek style starship combat. It's not ever reached that potential, and with the way the devs keep power creeping the game it never will.
The players with the programable devices with they pre built one key macro's have all the advantages over anyone who does not have said devices in PvP. In PvE the devs have to make bosses stupidly powerfull to keep players from simply melting the target.. Yes yes, were all supposed to be hero's capable of taking on the entire galaxy with both hands tided behind our backs....
This Is Booring.
Go into ship PvP kill most any target within 5 seconds... thats on a bad day.. usually 3-4 seconds.
STO as a game stinks on more levels then it shines because of a total lack of thought and planning on the part of the dev team. As a team of designers they've made more egregious errors in game design then a novice board game designer ever would.
And now, they've added a ship to the fed line up that mounts a tail cannon. In the mean time the games other two factions have recieved nothing comparable.
Poor design. Poorer implementation. A lack of thought towards any sort of faction balance in a multi faction MMO. A tatol lack of a decent faction based warfare meta game. After 4 years of STO I think I have finally given this game up as a bad job as I'm tired of waiting for it to actually get better. And the level of greed displayed by cryptic studios is just way over the top. Constantly manipulating the drop rate from the lock boxes to ensure rarity and maximize income is batently immoral. The game is unfortunatly pointy more and more at the e-peen immature crowd of very young players with new bright shineys.. as long as you play the "Good Guys" faction.
Toss in a total disconnect toward player harrassment issues in game in the product social zones, and an apparent nod of approval towards griefing players social non-combat play and..well.. I log in once a week now, and only because I have a LTM. There are far better MMO's out there. I play an Asmodian in **** on a server where my faction is out numbered and out gunned in PvP by at least 3 to 1, and often times as high as 10 to 1 and I find that far far more fun then STO. At least I'm getting a chance to play with my shinies as the underdog faction.
I wish STO were a better game, but its not. Its a very poorly made MMO, and poorly designed game. The only thing keeping it going is the Trek IP.... had Starwars the old republic been made following the same formula, it would be dead as a door nail by now.
As a Klingon faction player its just been one disappointment after another, and at this point I just don't see anything changing. Eventually the IP will pass into the hands of another studio.. I pray the learn from everything cryptic has managed to do totally wrong.
Khemaraa Iron Hand sends
Then they can nerf impulse capacitance cell or give the feds a special power to overcome it.
Cloak does not allow you to zip away quickly, which is what the statement implied. Other factors allow for the fast running.
R.I.P
Why you are na
No, the statement has been that feds can field the best snoopers ingame to find cloakers not that snoopers are.the only way to find cloakers.
As well many in this thread are treating standard cloaking the same as battle cloaking thinking and saying the advantage of cloak is the ability to attack and leave at will. Its no wonder cloaking is the Boogeyman of the feds, you all have it built up that way through lack of understanding it seems.
R.I.P
I do not know if you have used it but the tail gun is a gimmick weapon. No one sits there and says.. oh let me line up my tail gun so I can shoot you for less damage then my 4 front guns.
It's a cute little gimmick.. the power on the new escort is its boff layout. tac command, li cmd eng, lt cmd uni and a lt sci... having 2x Lt' Commander boffs on a escort is where its power is at.
The only thing that interesting on the tail gun is it has built in rapid fire 1... maybe seeing more weapons in the future with a built in boff skill
as far as the rest of your post I agree.. DPS power creep has always been a issue. compound that with bring able to buff all your weapons before decloaking does not help the issue. Be it alpha striking BOP back in the day to ships balls with a2b bfaw groups.. Balance has never been a strong suit for sto for sure.
There is no harm in asking for it though. Other then people being afraid of change.
R.I.P