LOL Yeah, KDF is OP. And I'm the King and Queen of England! :rolleyes:
What are we talking about here, PvP??? Hillarious. :P
Whenever nerfs hit, the same people whine about the darned PvPers that always break their OP toys and suck out the fun from their game.
Whenever they need to justify their whining for something completely irrational, those same people turn into seasoned PvPers in one last glorious attempt to justify their flawed points, as if the devs are dumbasses that don't understand anything.
Some of you guys really need to get a perspective on things.
Ya says the whinny faction that got Phasers nerfed to the point of being one of the worse procs in the game.... or the valdor console nerfed..
Yet when we talk about balance of cloak and what it effects.. you attack.. why cause its your op toy and you do not want it balanced..
The reason for years you KDF players have attacked every post about cloak is you darn well know its a massive game changer... and you do not want anything to TRIBBLE with your advantage so you make up BS and attack the Federation players that point there is a balance issue.
You KDF whined like little baby's over que times do to Fed players not queing up.. well they were not queing up mainly over one issue.. imbalance.
The ability to cloak.. to make ones self invisible is a huge advantage.. the ability to decided when and from where a attack will be made has always been a major factor in pvp
You guys dismissing it is so darn laughable...
Funny when the guy posts saying that all your BS about cloak as easy to break is just that BS.. and you come back with this... come on... think someone is getting a bit emmo over this. Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.
Wow... I find it ironic.. you claim.. you have to give up something to detect us.. what are you giving up to cloak?
A console slot? nope... umm.. dps.. nope... 5% hull.. ok so one hit from a dhc worth of damage.. . that's your big trade off for invisibility and a damage boost coming out of that invisibility?
But you argue.. you can give up more dps or survivability to detect us... ooh yep that's balance for ya..
My issue with KDF players defending this imbalance is you always try to drag in other aspects of the game to defend it.. Having more ship selection does not change the imbalance all it does it makes a bunch of the same imbalances. You wont ever stay on the topic of ship for ship... nope have to use boffs, consoles and what else you can as a excuse.
Ship for ship cloak is tiered way to low for its effects on game play this includes romulan and kdf.
You are sooo scared of losing that advantage.. that you will make every excuse under the sun.
The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance.
For every non-ship issue you bring up people can bring up other issue that are just as imbalanced.. such as Elite Disruptors getting a 25% damage on shields proc that last 10 sec while feds get a 180 shield heal... ya sure that's balanced.
How many times do we need to say we agree that the ship numbers are imbalanced and that boffs are imbalanced... at least we are admitting to the imbalances. Something you guys never admit to.. I have seen KDF players defend the elite disruptors vs the elite phasers.. when you defend stuff like that.. well bias is to nice a word.
Oh, u again... here's a repost...
KDF BoP's compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Battle Cloak (Can be used in Combat)
- Turn Rate
- All Universal Boff Stations
- Flanking (25% dmg vs NPC/ 8% dmg vs Players)
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull
- Weak Shields Mod.
- 1 Less BOff Ability
- 1 Less BOff Station
- 1 Less Weapon Slot
KDF Raptors compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
Most KDF Battle Cruisers compare to Most Fed Cruisers
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
- Can use Dual Cannons
- Turn Rate
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull Mod.
- 1 Less Cruiser Command (No KDF Battle Cruiser have ''Attract Fire'' that increases Damage Resistance and add more resistance with more players nearby
I see u are a Fed-Rommie, okay...
Obviously u think that KDF ships plays like Romulan Ships which in reality is not...
KDF Cloaks does not work the same way as Romulans with the exception with the BoP Battle Cloak. Raptors and Battle Cruisers can only use their cloak b4 and/or when a fight is over and cannot use the Cloak as Romulans can in middle of combat, KDF basic cloaks is only useful for a First Strike option for 15% ambush dmg for only 5 sec.
KDF does not have indigenous BOff's that increases the effectiveness of Stealth ambush abilities unless it's the one of the Romulan BOff's from the embassy with a Subterfuge trait. The KDF does not have a Reman BOff that can increase Cloak ambush dmg duration by 10 sec like Rommies have and nor does the KDF have the ability to stack a full mounted multiple Romulan BOff crew with all Superior Operative Traits to cut down Cloak CD time by 10 sec.
KDF ships such as BoP's and Raptors don't have the durability to be in a prolong fight against Fed or Rom classes, Only KDF Batte Cruisers are comparable which many are already obsolete compare to Romulan and newer Federation types.
U must of think alot of ppl doing PvP are stupid... of course it's hard to detect ppl cloaks due to the fact alot of them put points on their Stealth Skill and have BOff's space traits such as the Romulan Subterfuge and Nausicaan Pirate traits that can increase Stealth skill by 150-200.
also there is no BOff's space traits that can increase sensor skill by 150-200. and if the role is in reverse with ppl having 99 sensor skill + 150-200 sensor skill from BOff's traits and use them against players with cloaks with 0 stealth skill and no space trait that increase stealth then we would seen alot of ppl blasted out of their cloaks or out of the sky... would we?
Everything that's related to a Starship is an Issue... Stats, Tech, Weapons, BOff's, Space Traits, etc... everything in overall combat.
I agree that the Fleet Elite Disruptor are unfair compare to Fleet Elite Phasers, there are superior weapons such as Protonic space weapons on the Dyson Rep which is superior to both
Ya says the whinny faction that got Phasers nerfed to the point of being one of the worse procs in the game.... or the valdor console nerfed..
Yet when we talk about balance of cloak and what it effects.. you attack.. why cause its your op toy and you do not want it balanced..
The reason for years you KDF players have attacked every post about cloak is you darn well know its a massive game changer... and you do not want anything to TRIBBLE with your advantage so you make up BS and attack the Federation players that point there is a balance issue.
You KDF whined like little baby's over que times do to Fed players not queing up.. well they were not queing up mainly over one issue.. imbalance.
The ability to cloak.. to make ones self invisible is a huge advantage.. the ability to decided when and from where a attack will be made has always been a major factor in pvp
You guys dismissing it is so darn laughable...
Funny when the guy posts saying that all your BS about cloak as easy to break is just that BS.. and you come back with this... come on... think someone is getting a bit emmo over this. Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.
Kelshando, I seriously wonder if you even know what you are talking about sometimes. Must still be mad your thread got closed (which you caused I might add). Tempted to report you and get you out of my thread before you get it closed as well.
Are you talking KDF players or PvPers anymore? Because you seem to think that they are one and the same, which they are not. Maybe in planning Cryptic wanted the KDF to be a 'PvP faction' but in the end, that simply didn't pan out, period.
KDF players didn't get phasers nerfed or the Valdore console changed. Sure way, WAAAAY back in the day Phasers were the bomb in PvP, but that was just a long time ago. That said, a buff wouldn't be out of line for them nowadays. As for the Valdore console (which is still stupidly good I might add) that wasn't a nerf, it was a FIX, period. It wasn't working as it was meant to, and so Cryptic fixed it, nothing more, nothing less.
Actually, there's no real advantage to lose. It's already been lost. The Klingon faction in that game lost that battle. Namely Romulans. Deny it all you wish, but the Federation players already got their desire because the devs allowed Romulans to choose either side. So really there's no need for the Klingons to fight it, nor should the Federation players try and get more of it.
The 'attacks' Klingon players do are not to 'lose their advantage', as there's nothing to lose, it's more a case of 'Starfleet doesn't use cloaks'. Because guess what? They don't. I don't care how you try and justify it. They just DON'T. Did they do so in the shows? Yes. Was it a common thing? Only really in DS9, and even then, only until the Defiant was destroyed by the Breen.
Oh yes, PvP queues not popping. Hmm, you say KDF whined like 'little babies' about slow queues. Well, allow me to tell you something I know you will ignore: The Federation WHINED their collective faces off back in the day because of supposed 'imbalances' of the KDF because of the various toy consoles and such that had been given to the KDF, along with other stuff like cloak. That was partially the point of the thread, it sure as hell feels like we are back at that point again.
Wanna know what else? Fed players back then whined and whined about WANTING those very same KDF toys. Graviton Pulse, Isometric, Plasmonic Leech (that was a HUGE one), and so on. Did they ask for new things (stuff different from what the KDF had), or things to counter that more? No. They wanted what the KDF had. Also, guess what? The devs gave into that whining. Either directly because it looked profitable, or indirectly as they might have forgotten about it. Even so, it doesn't matter, as console after console was given to the Feds through the lockbox trades, with often times the KDF more or less getting junk in return.
On top of all that, the KDF never asked for any of those consoles in the first place. We never asked for a Graviton Pulse Generator, or the Aceton Assimilator. But they were given irregardless. The devs tried to make the KDF more...appealing I suppose with such things, but it backfired tremendously as it ended up only hurting the KDF.
Being able to choose your starting attack is a useful advantage in PvP. I won't deny that. But if all you have is a basic cloak, you AREN'T getting back in cloak that easily. Sure a battle cloak you can do that, but for the KDF, all they have with that are BoPs, and the Vet ship. Vet ship is kind of a unique case obviously, but even so, BoPs are squishy, and purposefully designed around the idea of a 'hit and run' attack. Again, we seem to be back at the idea of 'KDF is OP' when really it isn't anymore.
So, you said that 'Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.'
Ok...so...let's presume that is true for a moment. Then that begs the question: Why give it to Romulans then? ALL of their ships have battle cloak innate, yet they have 5 tac console ships. If the devs truly think that cloak is that powerful, and don't want to give 5 tac console ships a cloak, then surely no Romulan ship should have that.
Also, something for you to keep ignoring: KDF had a 5 tac console ship first. As much as folks might deny it, it is true.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
LoL.. what ever.. it was you guys getting all emmo and started naming calling.. didn't call my self a pedantic little man.. or refer to my self as a member practicing Shri'Law.. lol I just made the mistake or reposting it..oh and FYI it wasn't my thread.. I was talking to the op when all you guys jumped in like you normally do and attacked Federation players. Talk about emmo on a subject... That thread was the 1st thread I really locked horns with you KDF groupies.
Look as I have stated.. and I will caps this so you maybe you will read it ALL THE FACTIONS HAVE BALANCE ISSUE. THE DISCUSSION OF ONE ISSUE DOES NOT INVALDITE THE OTHER ISSUES please read that over and over....
If there was a thread that KDF need's more sci ships.. I would defend you guys
If there was a Romulan thread stating we need Elite Fleet Weapons.. I would defend them
If a Federation player starts a thread saying there is a imbalance between cloaking and non cloaking ships... yep you guessed it, I would defend them.
Using the argument that well you have this and we do not is childish. The forums are big enough to discuses all issue. KDF issue are just as valid as Fed issue. This attacking players on the forums and in game is stupid.
I have been pretty clear that the imbalance lies with under value of cloak. There is no innate that counters it.. a balance system would have Federation with a innate ability to counter it. Not some contrived thing of well you can give up more dps and survivability skills and consoles so you can counter our free innate ability.
New KDF ships are more on par stat wise with Federation ships.. or in the case of the Mogh out right better. So here lies the issue.. the old system of balance didn't work. So something new is needed across the board... a revamp sorta speak.
Both sides have been whinny.. pointing fingers and being immature... this is due to no one willing to look at each issue bring them inline and then look at the big picture. People are so cought up at pointing fingers and blaming and name calling that nothing is going to get fixed.
Ya says the whinny faction that got Phasers nerfed to the point of being one of the worse procs in the game.... or the valdor console nerfed..
Yet when we talk about balance of cloak and what it effects.. you attack.. why cause its your op toy and you do not want it balanced..
The reason for years you KDF players have attacked every post about cloak is you darn well know its a massive game changer... and you do not want anything to TRIBBLE with your advantage so you make up BS and attack the Federation players that point there is a balance issue.
You KDF whined like little baby's over que times do to Fed players not queing up.. well they were not queing up mainly over one issue.. imbalance.
The ability to cloak.. to make ones self invisible is a huge advantage.. the ability to decided when and from where a attack will be made has always been a major factor in pvp
You guys dismissing it is so darn laughable...
Funny when the guy posts saying that all your BS about cloak as easy to break is just that BS.. and you come back with this... come on... think someone is getting a bit emmo over this. Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.
Who said we have to give anything to detect cloakers? Who said anything about anyone giving up to be able to make a snooper?
The statement was that the feds, not fed roms, have the best ability ingame to detect cloakers and can make the best snoopers.
Which is understandibly logical and expected since the feds would have had to make strides in the ability to detect cloakers since two of thier enemies cloak.
"The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance."
Some KDF ships need some minor buffing, maybe. Some KDF ships may function well. No KDF ship is OP.
I disagree that cloaking is unbalanced in STO. I disagree that KDF ships with cloak (not all KDF cloak) are unbalanced. Bops and Raptors pay in some manner according to the Devs. We KDF fans have our guess at how over the years but only the Devs know what payment is taken.
Most cloaking is of the standard class of cloaking which can not be activated in battle and has a long CD.
Most cloaking is therefore only useful for the surprise attack first strike in a combat and the rare engine+speed buff flee moment where you can get far enough away from combat to use it.
Battle Cloak is better in that it has a shorter CD and you can cloak in the heat of battle. Great for the prepared fast escape but risky in that the shot fired at you as you cloak can be the golden one that kills you.
KDF cloakers are not the issue. If you wish to nerf something then look to your honest plain speaking romulans whom are knowingly OP. Balance them.
Bi0tch to the Devs over Elite Phaser. The KDF did not create them.
I am not concerned with the parity of ship numbers. I support or suggest new ships for the KDF because we are missing the obviuos Alien non-klingon ships for some allied KDF species .
Out Boffs are ok. We have pirate which is nice as it fits the warlike naturs of the KDF with its max 7.5% damage boost.
The KDF and its fanbase have been open about many imbalances that need fixing in game over the years. Our fighting to defend what we do not see as imbalanced is not a fault of character on our part. Check your privledge before the pedistal breaks.
Serial victum are two interesting words. In so much as some feds play to their definition often and claim the KDF as the oppressor more often than the boy who cried wolf.
HIgh skilling in sensors, and add consoles, equip and doff to boost AuX or sensors, will allow you to see cloaked ships easily at 12km or more.
No kidding
One side...... the cloaked side push's a button and cloaks
The other side has to do all of the things you suggest to get to be even
Doesnt seem very fair to me
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The KDF fanbase never had phasers nerfed. That was an outcome of them once being the best pvp weapon as it was easily possible to mutlishutdown vessel systems using a phaser build. Their proc was eventually nerfed due to that.
Besides if your are going to cry and ***** about evil KDF nerfing of the feds toys let me remind you that fedwhine got the KDF siphon drones nerfed, orion pets nerfed on thier pillaging, the AA getting nerfed, and even our factional identity as having carriers and battle cruisers.
As the earth sayings goes "Your TRIBBLE yet smells just as badly".
Your crying the valdore is just as blind. We KDF had nothing to do with its changes.
Only unbalanced cloaking ingame that may exist is on the Roms, in that they may be too good at it.
Its a truth I accept as the costs of my actions, as I am one who agreed that the Romulans derserved all battle cloaks as a faction. Maybe it was a bit unsound, too late now as the die is cast. I can live with it.
We complained that the Fed v Fed que would ruin pvp ingame as it would allow the feds to hide and only play with themselves.
We where right.
Only a small amount of you bothered to que up and most that did where not always the better known fed pvpers.
I did notice that the tourney premade and often higher experienced private pug games the are normally ruled by fed player victorys and the KDF mainly does well in the random pug ques.
FvK random pugging in the ques fell off because the average Kirker fed who enjoys pvping against only his fed peers and fed attacks died more often pugging against KDF. They cried foul, Op, and other BS, lost heart and stopped queing.
Funny thing is that when ever a premade or equally good fed team slummed it in the FvK pugs, the KDF players tended to die often and often.
In reality we KDF once fit in the middle of pvp capability, above the average pugger but below fed premades. I think we have fallen a little lower due to the roms.
Of course cloaking is an advantage. We have never said it wasnt that I know of.
Its also now an advantage that the feds enjoy on four of their ships plus the only vessel specidlfically designed to counter cloaking (a ship getting a buff soon).
Cloak is actually easy to break, both by legitimate ingame means and ingame bugged things like pets that fire on cloaked PCs.
If we KDF are being denied a 5Tac console vessel because the Devs think that cloaking innately and such firepower is too OP then why did they give the Roms, who have far better cloaking, such vessels?
One side...... the cloaked side push's a button and cloaks
The other side has to do all of the things you suggest to get to be even
Doesnt seem very fair to me
The other side is that the first side can buff thier detection power levels way higher than those that try to buff stealth. Detection versus Stealth is not even. Detection can reach more higher ability while buffing stealth is near pointless. Basically detection > stealth.
The other side is that the first side can buff thier detection power levels way higher than those that try to buff stealth. Detection versus Stealth is not even. Detection can reach more higher ability while buffing stealth is near pointless. Basically detection > stealth.
understood
That means both sides need to start out as equals
klingons cloak until range 10
Fed sensors detect at range 10
Now
Both sides add skills boffs doffs consoles to remain cloaked or detect cloak equally
That would be equal and fair
What we have right now is a hopeless comedy
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
bitemepwe.. you are the poster child of a KDF groupie.
So much of what you typed was so wrong its not even funny... You sure proved my point with that silly rant. Maybe when you have calmed down you can retype that so its understandable.. ok thanks.
Ps: Fix your paragraphing.. I may not be the best at typing but.. dang you take the cake on that one.
klingons cloak until range 10
Fed sensors detect at range 10
Now
Both sides add skills boffs doffs consoles to remain cloaked or detect cloak equally
That would be equal and fair
What we have right now is a hopeless comedy
I find the fact that any fed can always buff their ability to detect cloak to higher levels than the KDF can buff thier ability to conceal themselves in cloak as an advantage to the feds.
It allows them to be slightly better at spotting than we KDF can hide.
The roms may be different as they are better at hiding.
bitemepwe.. you are the poster child of a KDF groupie.
So much of what you typed was so wrong its not even funny... You sure proved my point with that silly rant. Maybe when you have calmed down you can retype that so its understandable.. ok thanks.
Ps: Fix your paragraphing.. I may not be the best at typing but.. dang you take the cake on that one.
Who made you the forum post TRIBBLE grammar commander? Chomp on it. Where am I in the wrong on what I have said? Much of what I have said insanely funny in a manner of speaking.
Its hard to type such posts on a S5, itty bitty virtual keyboard.
Still you read it, maybe not gotten it, but you did read it.
Please resume the fed victum rant of how bad you all have it because of cloaking. Its what we KDF groupie have come to expect from the golden boy fed kool aid drinkers.
I find the fact that any fed can always buff their ability to detect cloak to higher levels than the KDF can buff thier ability to conceal themselves in cloak as an advantage to the feds.
It allows them to be slightly better at spotting than we KDF can hide.
The roms may be different as they are better at hiding.
you all know this can all be fix..
fix all weapons range so that Fed KDF and roms so they all have different range's for weapon's..
well I just say it give feds more range LOL
KDF don't need it :P
klingons cloak until range 10
Fed sensors detect at range 10
Now
Both sides add skills boffs doffs consoles to remain cloaked or detect cloak equally
That would be equal and fair
What we have right now is a hopeless comedy
He wont listen man.. even when you point out that detection is not nearly what they claim.. and the fact they still seem to think that its balanced having to dump skills into detection when they do not have to do squat for there cloak.. its pretty sad really..
I even came up with a simple Star Fleet ship only ability suggestion of a 30 sec cool down sensor sweep that would decloak ships at 5km range.. and they blew up as if it unbalanced.. if detection was sooo easy then 5km range shouldn't be scary.. sheesh
Its so funny that they claim cloak is hardly worth it... and hardly effect game play. Then they insult and attack any one who says other wise... if its so worthless.. why defended it so much.. right.
We do have to dump skills into cloaking if we expect to be good at cloaking. Its a skill the same tier as sensors. Most KDF players choose not to skill it as it does not help much.
If a fed chooses not to buff sensors thats thier fault, not any of the KDF. Use the tools availible you or not is your choice.
A KDF vessel with unbuffed stealth is way easy to spot, thats most KDF players.
Your idea was to have a sensor sweep that was bigger and useble as an innate ability of all star fleet ships.
Some KDF actuall thought it fair.
I said it needed to be just like innate cloaking with a long cd and not being usable while in combat, or no deal.
You disagreed and said was unfair request.
We defend because we are still tired of the feds multiple year crying bitchfest attempt to steal it completely because they think its OP its built in. Lets not worry about how the feds desire it is innate without the balancing factors the Devs deem are needed.
The KDF battle to defend cloak will always be as persitant as the fed battle cry of , "Star Trek is all about us!".
Who made you the forum post TRIBBLE grammar commander? Chomp on it. Where am I in the wrong on what I have said? Much of what I have said insanely funny in a manner of speaking.
Its hard to type such posts on a S5, itty bitty virtual keyboard.
Still you read it, maybe not gotten it, but you did read it.
Please resume the fed victum rant of how bad you all have it because of cloaking. Its what we KDF groupie have come to expect from the golden boy fed kool aid drinkers.
You better calm down.. telling player to yell at the devs.. and telling people to "chomp on it" well your about to cross that line.. better watch it.
You want to know what wrong with what you typed... just about everything.
its was KDF complaining about phaser buids that got them nerfed. Argument that "this is stupid we come out of cloak and are instantly shut down by Federation ship balls with bfaw" that was the whining that was taking place at the time.
The Fed on Fed queing was KDF cloaks imbalance fault.. simple logic.. KDF were imbalanced in pvp.. so do not fight KDF. Pretty simple logic there..
There is no counter cloaking ship.. this is a out and out lie. There is a counter cloaking console.. the ship has NO built in ability.
Saying Romulan cloak is imbalance but yours is fine.. ya that being a hypocrite. Both have balance issue.. but at least romulans are giving up 40 system power for it.. at least they tried to balance.. but power creep kinda shot that 40 system power issue in the foot.
I could go on but you will just rant about this post anyhow.
The power ability of Cstore ships where once innatte. You feds complained about innate powers until Cstore ships got universal consoles instead.
Dont blaim the KDF because the fed complainers broke the Nebulas chance at innate because of their complaints of fed players that innate cloaking was useless, that it would be better if said innate powers where consoles that could be removed so the slot could be useful.
The Devs did that and gave an extra consoles to boot.
We KDF didnt TRIBBLE the feds cloakers up. The feds did. We KDF didnt even have any Cstore ships when this happened.
The power ability of Cstore ships where once innatte. You feds complained about innate powers until Cstore ships got universal consoles instead.
Dont blaim the KDF because the fed complainers broke the Nebulas chance at innate because of their complaints of fed players that innate cloaking was useless, that it would be better if said innate powers where consoles that could be removed so the slot could be useful.
The Devs did that and gave an extra consoles to boot.
We KDF didnt TRIBBLE the feds cloakers up. The feds did. We KDF didnt even have any Cstore ships when this happened.
Now we know you are full of it.. the change was a f2p change.. had nothing to with fed's or KDF.. keep dreaming that pal.
Defiant's innate came at a cost of a console.. so do not try to act like it was even.. Federation players said having to give up a console for a innate wasn't fair.. and so they made it a console that forced you to give up a console slot any how. Totally ignoring the fact the Federation players even then were saying that it should be a built in function like Klingon ships.. that it shouldn't ever have had to give up a console spot built in or other wise when no other cloaking ship did.
You have very immagintive way at look at things I will give you that.
Fellow KDF players, hear me. Let us...ignore, Kelshando's posts, because he seems quite content to ignore all that we say and basically tell us that we are 'wrong', among other things. If he is not willing to have a civil discussion and do nothing but cause tension and such, then we should simply not bother with him anymore. It'll just be better for all of us.
Anyways, putting that aside, about the whole 'stealth vs detection' thing, I have no problem with Feds having the best at it. I don't mind Fed Roms having very good detection as well. Only real issue I have is that the T'varo can have the bonus from the TDF console running and be under cloak, thus able to detect other cloaked ships, while being unseen itself.
Now, that said...stealth vs detection is bugged. Not in the math, that's fine still. What I mean is in the various items and such that should be boosting Stealth (either flatly, or the Stealth skill) are not working. Namely one or both of the deflectors from the Romulan rep (cannot remember which one or both it is), and the various EPTA skills do not actually give the +Stealth like they should. BOFFs seem to work: Nausicaans, Romulans, Remans, all work perfectly fine, but some other stuff does not.
To me, bugs take priority over everything else in terms of balance discussions. whether they help me or hurt me, bugs are BUGS, as in, something doesn't work right. Only after those are fixed can things continue on to decide if they are balanced or not.
Case and point for that: Borg 2-piece. It was bugged. People moaned about it being a nerf, etc etc, but it was a bug. It was providing a better heal to ships with a higher hull modifier than it should have been. So they fixed the bug, unifying the heal people gained from it. And that's that. Before whether you considered the 2-piece overpowered or not was irrelevant IMO, as a bug is a bug, and needs to get fixed. Now that it is fixed, and working like it should, can thoughts about that really keep going.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Fellow KDF players, hear me. Let us...ignore, Kelshando's posts, because he seems quite content to ignore all that we say and basically tell us that we are 'wrong', among other things. If he is not willing to have a civil discussion and do nothing but cause tension and such, then we should simply not bother with him anymore. It'll just be better for all of us.
Anyways, putting that aside, about the whole 'stealth vs detection' thing, I have no problem with Feds having the best at it. I don't mind Fed Roms having very good detection as well. Only real issue I have is that the T'varo can have the bonus from the TDF console running and be under cloak, thus able to detect other cloaked ships, while being unseen itself.
Now, that said...stealth vs detection is bugged. Not in the math, that's fine still. What I mean is in the various items and such that should be boosting Stealth (either flatly, or the Stealth skill) are not working. Namely one or both of the deflectors from the Romulan rep (cannot remember which one or both it is), and the various EPTA skills do not actually give the +Stealth like they should. BOFFs seem to work: Nausicaans, Romulans, Remans, all work perfectly fine, but some other stuff does not.
To me, bugs take priority over everything else in terms of balance discussions. whether they help me or hurt me, bugs are BUGS, as in, something doesn't work right. Only after those are fixed can things continue on to decide if they are balanced or not.
Case and point for that: Borg 2-piece. It was bugged. People moaned about it being a nerf, etc etc, but it was a bug. It was providing a better heal to ships with a higher hull modifier than it should have been. So they fixed the bug, unifying the heal people gained from it. And that's that. Before whether you considered the 2-piece overpowered or not was irrelevant IMO, as a bug is a bug, and needs to get fixed. Now that it is fixed, and working like it should, can thoughts about that really keep going.
It's pretty much a case that until bugs are resolved, one cannot really discuss the state of things - because without the bugs being resolved, one is not experiencing the state of things.
This is a MMO, all the bugs will never be resolved.
Of course not...but an ability or a piece of gear that is supposed to add X should add X...and it's been over a year, longer for some - where the issue has persisted.
Case and point for that: Borg 2-piece. It was bugged. People moaned about it being a nerf, etc etc, but it was a bug. It was providing a better heal to ships with a higher hull modifier than it should have been. So they fixed the bug, unifying the heal people gained from it. And that's that. Before whether you considered the 2-piece overpowered or not was irrelevant IMO, as a bug is a bug, and needs to get fixed. Now that it is fixed, and working like it should, can thoughts about that really keep going.
Oh god, don't remind me of that thread discussing the change. I had a lenghty "discussion" in there with someone very oppionated. The horror.
I don't know if i can take anyone serious anymore, that wants something the other faction has. If we just take everything everyone else has, then there won't be any need for factions. I feel like it's the new players, that are to lazy to try out another faction or simply don't like the vibe of one, that are actually complaining about X being OP for the KDF, so either nerf or gimme. On the other hand some posters really like to take those few idi0ts and make them the poster child of a whole faction ... meh it's easy i suppose, but also pretty lazy.
While i agree that there should be balance (especially considering thos damned romulans), i don't think the risk reward ration on cloak detection and stealth is really ballanced, but this -of course- doesn't warrant that the Feds should get a innate cloak. I hope this never happens. I also hope, that no lockbox ship with an innate battlecloak ever sees the light of day, because this will certainly be the end of faction uniqueness.
On the matter of cloak detection
Detection: You need a sci ship, because thos have the best innate detection value. You need EptA. You'd also need a nice detection boosting deflector. Either the jem one or the romulan rep one. You will probably want the TDF console. You need very high Aux levels, which can cripple a ship. You need some +Sensor skill consoles. You need to invest heavily into the skill Starship Sensors which is a T3 skill and thus quite expansive. And on top of all, you'll probably want to be a sci captain for sensor scan.
Stealth: You need a ship with cloak. Stealth skill is not needed, because the payoff is just dreadfull and can be easily mitigated through a few point of aux power. The boffs that boost your stealth are readily available and even so they don't stack nearly everyone has at least one, because they are "best in slot" anyways.
I think anybody can see that the cost of opportunity is a bit skewed here. Sensor scan and TDF only allow stealth detection in bursts, so they are only usefull if not too many cloaked ships are around.
A snooper does exactly what its name implies. It detects and does nothing else and has to sacrifice a lot to be good at it. Also, you can't simply incorporate the snooper design into your ship, because it would make you a lot less viable in your role.
Oh god, don't remind me of that thread discussing the change. I had a lenghty "discussion" in there with someone very oppionated. The horror.
I don't know if i can take anyone serious anymore, that wants something the other faction has. If we just take everything everyone else has, then there won't be any need for factions. I feel like it's the new players, that are to lazy to try out another faction or simply don't like the vibe of one, that are actually complaining about X being OP for the KDF, so either nerf or gimme. On the other hand some posters really like to take those few idi0ts and make them the poster child of a whole faction ... meh it's easy i suppose, but also pretty lazy.
While i agree that there should be balance (especially considering thos damned romulans), i don't think the risk reward ration on cloak detection and stealth is really ballanced, but this -of course- doesn't warrant that the Feds should get a innate cloak. I hope this never happens. I also hope, that no lockbox ship with an innate battlecloak ever sees the light of day, because this will certainly be the end of faction uniqueness.
On the matter of cloak detection
Detection: You need a sci ship, because thos have the best innate detection value. You need EptA. You'd also need a nice detection boosting deflector. Either the jem one or the romulan rep one. You will probably want the TDF console. You need very high Aux levels, which can cripple a ship. You need some +Sensor skill consoles. You need to invest heavily into the skill Starship Sensors which is a T3 skill and thus quite expansive. And on top of all, you'll probably want to be a sci captain for sensor scan.
Stealth: You need a ship with cloak. Stealth skill is not needed, because the payoff is just dreadfull and can be easily mitigated through a few point of aux power. The boffs that boost your stealth are readily available and even so they don't stack nearly everyone has at least one, because they are "best in slot" anyways.
I think anybody can see that the cost of opportunity is a bit skewed here. Sensor scan and TDF only allow stealth detection in bursts, so they are only usefull if not too many cloaked ships are around.
A snooper does exactly what its name implies. It detects and does nothing else and has to sacrifice a lot to be good at it. Also, you can't simply incorporate the snooper design into your ship, because it would make you a lot less viable in your role.
Thank you.. this is what I've been saying.. lets look at the issue... well thought out post.. I salute you.
They can ignore me all they want.. but years people have seen this imbalance. It its them that have there eyes closed and ears covered mumbling its balanced.
Regular cloaks require being out of combat to engage.
Those ships have less shields and shield mods.
KDF Battlecloaking:
Pro:
Initiative
Can be used in combat
Con:
Much less shields and shield mods.
Using in battle will get you killed more often then not.
Raiders are generally the only ship options most have (non-lifers).
So break down Raiders:
Pro:
Uni slots (at the time made them uniquely versatile).
Speed/Agility
Flanking (if it's even in game yet)
Cons:
Less specialized console layout options. 3-3-3 or 3-3-4. No 3-3-4 Sci option.
One less weapon mount point.
One less Ensign Slot.
Much less Hull.
Lockbox and Special event and Z-Store ships have closed the speed/agility gap considerably. Many Fed ships were given a speed/turn boost w/in the last year or two.
Likewise the variety of builds are no longer unique iirc the Sci destroyer made possible the last significant Sci Commander Lt Comm Tac available to Fed ships.
This is just Feds not even the Rommy Fed options. But, it's plain the uniqueness that was the Raider has been significantly reduce over time.
The Brel my favorite ship, but it's not been an option for PvP dog fighting for years. Even then a 5 Raider team wouldn't make a dent vs a good Fed team. Even w/the initiative advantage of BCs.
I'm curious for those who thing that cloak is the huge advantage they claim, when's the last time you took a Raider into a PvP Arena match?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Regular cloaks require being out of combat to engage. That's not a disatvantage by itself or do you count having no cloak as a disatvantage for fed ships?
Those ships have less shields and shield mods. And apperently newer iterations (see Mogh) get more hull strength as compensation.
KDF Battlecloaking:
Pro:
Initiative
Can be used in combat Actually usefull in pve and pvp, because it can be used to break combat and reposition oneself. Basically required for any real hit-and-run tactic.
Con:
Much less shields and shield mods. A good balance decision, because battle cloaking ships should rely more on their cloak and less on their shield tanking capabilities.
Using in battle will get you killed more often then not. If you are careless. Using the reputation cloak just before battle cloaking is a much safer way to cloak. The same goes for scrambling the enemies sensors (which of course doesn't always work).
Raiders are generally the only ship options most have (non-lifers). That's one of the points why romulans are considered OP and KDF at least decently balanced... older KDF ships at least.
So break down Raiders:
Pro:
Uni slots (at the time made them uniquely versatile). Also a reason why raiders are usually limited to only having different console layouts and boff structures. The fed side having more ships is basically just a visual substitute for having the versatility of uni boff stations. Basically quality over quantity for the KDF.
Speed/Agility The best in the game, excluding the risian corvette.
Flanking (if it's even in game yet) In the game, but diminished against players
Cons:
Less specialized console layout options. 3-3-3 or 3-3-4. No 3-4-3 Sci option.
One less weapon aft mount point.
One less Ensign Slot.
Much less Hull. Basically the same as the risian corvette, which gets the +15% defense bonus based on its speed. Another hit and run ship, albeit a lot less versatile.
Lockbox and Special event and Z-Store ships have closed the speed/agility gap considerably. Many Fed ships were given a speed/turn boost w/in the last year or two. I'm pretty sure a lot of ships got buffed, including nearly every fleet ship availyble, due to the sorry state some fleet ships were once in (and some still are ... oh poor aquarius).
Likewise the variety of builds are no longer unique iirc the Sci destroyer made possible the last significant Sci Commander Lt Comm Tac available to Fed ships.
This is just Feds not even the Rommy Fed options. But, it's plain the uniqueness that was the Raider has been significantly reduce over time. Again, here we have a quality over quantity argument. The destroyer is one specific ship with a specific layout, that's bound to a fixed hull. A bop doesn't have such issues.
The Brel my favorite ship, but it's not been an option for PvP dog fighting for years. Even then a 5 Raider team wouldn't make a dent vs a good Fed team. Even w/the initiative advantage of BCs. Okay, i can't believe you actually ever played a dogfighting raider. These are hit and run vessels. They have less hull and shields, but a battle cloak to compensate. That's the point of their existence and the uni boff layout is there to further this specific strategy. Don't try and force a playstyle upon a ship, just because you can. I mean, just because the jem dreadnought can use heavy cannons, doesn't mean i'll ever use any on the ship ...
I'm curious for those who thing that cloak is the huge advantage they claim, when's the last time you took a Raider into a PvP Arena match? There are some bops i see in the arena. They usually fair well if no sci or gravi spamming ship pilot is around. Some are outstanding at what they do and some are just a mere nuisance. In the end it depends on the captain how he'll perform using his ship.
Saying Romulan cloak is imbalance but yours is fine.. ya that being a hypocrite. Both have balance issue.. but at least romulans are giving up 40 system power for it.. at least they tried to balance.. but power creep kinda shot that 40 system power issue in the foot.
LOLz... - 40 power levels have nothing to do with the Battle Cloak, it was set because of Warbird Sig Abilities... Cryptic have consider using - 20 pwr levels instead while both Fed and KDF testers agreed it would be more OP due to the effectiveness of the sig abilities so the dev's changed it.
I was there beta testing the Romulan faction in pre-LoR on the tribble server while u still could not or don't want to figure out how to spec ur Fed toon well in PvP against KDF players on the holodeck... I know alot of Fed PvP players that can withstand a powerful alpha strike from even the best offensive KDF players while u can't last 0.2 sec into a match... which is why u still complaining to this day and now playing as a Fedmulan.
Besides the loss of -40 pwr levels because of the Warbird Sig abilities, Romulan Warbirds has no disadvantage what so ever in any other Ships stats... All Warbirds have full Boff Statiions with most having a uni Boff Station... Hull, Shield, Turn Rate that is comparable to Fed Ships plus a Battle Cloak and top it off the dev's add Captain and BOff's space traits that superior to any KDF and Fed space traits combined.
What does the KDF ships have overall advantage with Cloaks?... A first strike option for 5 sec, and what happen if that fail against ppl that knows how to survive an alpha strike (which obviously u can't)... BoP's have less weapons, weak hull, weak shield mod., 1 less boff ability, but can recloak in combat... Raptors have weak turn rates and weak shields, can't recloak... which only makes Battle Cruiser the most effective overall KDF ship type despite having weaker hull and/or Shield Mod (Bortas) but like the raptor it too cannot cloak in combat.
Again. I will put in simple words if u still don't understand what i type above since my engrish typing skills is poor (engrish is not my first language)
Romulan Battle Cloak on Warbirds with stats of those of Fed ships, Sig abilities at the expense of Power levels, excellent BOff's space traits that can boast Romulan Battle Cloaks dmg abilities. Rom Warbirds can Cloak in Combat.
KDF Cloaks on Warships with stats less durable than Fed ships, Most KDF ships cannot Cloak in Combat, No KDF BOff's to increase effectiveness to stealth dmg abilities.
Despite the myth around the Fed side about KDF ships, the KDF does not have more powerful offensive war vessels than Fed or Rom in fact the KDF only have a few ships that can match them.
Comments
Ya says the whinny faction that got Phasers nerfed to the point of being one of the worse procs in the game.... or the valdor console nerfed..
Yet when we talk about balance of cloak and what it effects.. you attack.. why cause its your op toy and you do not want it balanced..
The reason for years you KDF players have attacked every post about cloak is you darn well know its a massive game changer... and you do not want anything to TRIBBLE with your advantage so you make up BS and attack the Federation players that point there is a balance issue.
You KDF whined like little baby's over que times do to Fed players not queing up.. well they were not queing up mainly over one issue.. imbalance.
The ability to cloak.. to make ones self invisible is a huge advantage.. the ability to decided when and from where a attack will be made has always been a major factor in pvp
You guys dismissing it is so darn laughable...
Funny when the guy posts saying that all your BS about cloak as easy to break is just that BS.. and you come back with this... come on... think someone is getting a bit emmo over this. Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.
Oh, u again... here's a repost...
KDF BoP's compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Battle Cloak (Can be used in Combat)
- Turn Rate
- All Universal Boff Stations
- Flanking (25% dmg vs NPC/ 8% dmg vs Players)
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull
- Weak Shields Mod.
- 1 Less BOff Ability
- 1 Less BOff Station
- 1 Less Weapon Slot
KDF Raptors compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
Disadvantages
- Weak Turn Rate / Axis
- Weak Shield Mod.
Most KDF Battle Cruisers compare to Most Fed Cruisers
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
- Can use Dual Cannons
- Turn Rate
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull Mod.
- 1 Less Cruiser Command (No KDF Battle Cruiser have ''Attract Fire'' that increases Damage Resistance and add more resistance with more players nearby
I see u are a Fed-Rommie, okay...
Obviously u think that KDF ships plays like Romulan Ships which in reality is not...
KDF Cloaks does not work the same way as Romulans with the exception with the BoP Battle Cloak. Raptors and Battle Cruisers can only use their cloak b4 and/or when a fight is over and cannot use the Cloak as Romulans can in middle of combat, KDF basic cloaks is only useful for a First Strike option for 15% ambush dmg for only 5 sec.
KDF does not have indigenous BOff's that increases the effectiveness of Stealth ambush abilities unless it's the one of the Romulan BOff's from the embassy with a Subterfuge trait. The KDF does not have a Reman BOff that can increase Cloak ambush dmg duration by 10 sec like Rommies have and nor does the KDF have the ability to stack a full mounted multiple Romulan BOff crew with all Superior Operative Traits to cut down Cloak CD time by 10 sec.
KDF ships such as BoP's and Raptors don't have the durability to be in a prolong fight against Fed or Rom classes, Only KDF Batte Cruisers are comparable which many are already obsolete compare to Romulan and newer Federation types.
U must of think alot of ppl doing PvP are stupid... of course it's hard to detect ppl cloaks due to the fact alot of them put points on their Stealth Skill and have BOff's space traits such as the Romulan Subterfuge and Nausicaan Pirate traits that can increase Stealth skill by 150-200.
also there is no BOff's space traits that can increase sensor skill by 150-200. and if the role is in reverse with ppl having 99 sensor skill + 150-200 sensor skill from BOff's traits and use them against players with cloaks with 0 stealth skill and no space trait that increase stealth then we would seen alot of ppl blasted out of their cloaks or out of the sky... would we?
Everything that's related to a Starship is an Issue... Stats, Tech, Weapons, BOff's, Space Traits, etc... everything in overall combat.
I agree that the Fleet Elite Disruptor are unfair compare to Fleet Elite Phasers, there are superior weapons such as Protonic space weapons on the Dyson Rep which is superior to both
Kelshando, I seriously wonder if you even know what you are talking about sometimes. Must still be mad your thread got closed (which you caused I might add). Tempted to report you and get you out of my thread before you get it closed as well.
Are you talking KDF players or PvPers anymore? Because you seem to think that they are one and the same, which they are not. Maybe in planning Cryptic wanted the KDF to be a 'PvP faction' but in the end, that simply didn't pan out, period.
KDF players didn't get phasers nerfed or the Valdore console changed. Sure way, WAAAAY back in the day Phasers were the bomb in PvP, but that was just a long time ago. That said, a buff wouldn't be out of line for them nowadays. As for the Valdore console (which is still stupidly good I might add) that wasn't a nerf, it was a FIX, period. It wasn't working as it was meant to, and so Cryptic fixed it, nothing more, nothing less.
Actually, there's no real advantage to lose. It's already been lost. The Klingon faction in that game lost that battle. Namely Romulans. Deny it all you wish, but the Federation players already got their desire because the devs allowed Romulans to choose either side. So really there's no need for the Klingons to fight it, nor should the Federation players try and get more of it.
The 'attacks' Klingon players do are not to 'lose their advantage', as there's nothing to lose, it's more a case of 'Starfleet doesn't use cloaks'. Because guess what? They don't. I don't care how you try and justify it. They just DON'T. Did they do so in the shows? Yes. Was it a common thing? Only really in DS9, and even then, only until the Defiant was destroyed by the Breen.
Oh yes, PvP queues not popping. Hmm, you say KDF whined like 'little babies' about slow queues. Well, allow me to tell you something I know you will ignore: The Federation WHINED their collective faces off back in the day because of supposed 'imbalances' of the KDF because of the various toy consoles and such that had been given to the KDF, along with other stuff like cloak. That was partially the point of the thread, it sure as hell feels like we are back at that point again.
Wanna know what else? Fed players back then whined and whined about WANTING those very same KDF toys. Graviton Pulse, Isometric, Plasmonic Leech (that was a HUGE one), and so on. Did they ask for new things (stuff different from what the KDF had), or things to counter that more? No. They wanted what the KDF had. Also, guess what? The devs gave into that whining. Either directly because it looked profitable, or indirectly as they might have forgotten about it. Even so, it doesn't matter, as console after console was given to the Feds through the lockbox trades, with often times the KDF more or less getting junk in return.
On top of all that, the KDF never asked for any of those consoles in the first place. We never asked for a Graviton Pulse Generator, or the Aceton Assimilator. But they were given irregardless. The devs tried to make the KDF more...appealing I suppose with such things, but it backfired tremendously as it ended up only hurting the KDF.
Being able to choose your starting attack is a useful advantage in PvP. I won't deny that. But if all you have is a basic cloak, you AREN'T getting back in cloak that easily. Sure a battle cloak you can do that, but for the KDF, all they have with that are BoPs, and the Vet ship. Vet ship is kind of a unique case obviously, but even so, BoPs are squishy, and purposefully designed around the idea of a 'hit and run' attack. Again, we seem to be back at the idea of 'KDF is OP' when really it isn't anymore.
So, you said that 'Maybe the reason KDF are not getting these tac 5 consoles.. is because the DEVs know how powerful cloak is.. and yet you whin about it.'
Ok...so...let's presume that is true for a moment. Then that begs the question: Why give it to Romulans then? ALL of their ships have battle cloak innate, yet they have 5 tac console ships. If the devs truly think that cloak is that powerful, and don't want to give 5 tac console ships a cloak, then surely no Romulan ship should have that.
Also, something for you to keep ignoring: KDF had a 5 tac console ship first. As much as folks might deny it, it is true.
Look as I have stated.. and I will caps this so you maybe you will read it ALL THE FACTIONS HAVE BALANCE ISSUE. THE DISCUSSION OF ONE ISSUE DOES NOT INVALDITE THE OTHER ISSUES please read that over and over....
If there was a thread that KDF need's more sci ships.. I would defend you guys
If there was a Romulan thread stating we need Elite Fleet Weapons.. I would defend them
If a Federation player starts a thread saying there is a imbalance between cloaking and non cloaking ships... yep you guessed it, I would defend them.
Using the argument that well you have this and we do not is childish. The forums are big enough to discuses all issue. KDF issue are just as valid as Fed issue. This attacking players on the forums and in game is stupid.
I have been pretty clear that the imbalance lies with under value of cloak. There is no innate that counters it.. a balance system would have Federation with a innate ability to counter it. Not some contrived thing of well you can give up more dps and survivability skills and consoles so you can counter our free innate ability.
New KDF ships are more on par stat wise with Federation ships.. or in the case of the Mogh out right better. So here lies the issue.. the old system of balance didn't work. So something new is needed across the board... a revamp sorta speak.
Both sides have been whinny.. pointing fingers and being immature... this is due to no one willing to look at each issue bring them inline and then look at the big picture. People are so cought up at pointing fingers and blaming and name calling that nothing is going to get fixed.
Go fly a ship with <30k hull and <8k shields and see how OP it really is.
KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X
Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
I have agree with kelshando on this...
The statement was that the feds, not fed roms, have the best ability ingame to detect cloakers and can make the best snoopers.
Which is understandibly logical and expected since the feds would have had to make strides in the ability to detect cloakers since two of thier enemies cloak.
"The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance."
Some KDF ships need some minor buffing, maybe. Some KDF ships may function well. No KDF ship is OP.
I disagree that cloaking is unbalanced in STO. I disagree that KDF ships with cloak (not all KDF cloak) are unbalanced. Bops and Raptors pay in some manner according to the Devs. We KDF fans have our guess at how over the years but only the Devs know what payment is taken.
Most cloaking is of the standard class of cloaking which can not be activated in battle and has a long CD.
Most cloaking is therefore only useful for the surprise attack first strike in a combat and the rare engine+speed buff flee moment where you can get far enough away from combat to use it.
Battle Cloak is better in that it has a shorter CD and you can cloak in the heat of battle. Great for the prepared fast escape but risky in that the shot fired at you as you cloak can be the golden one that kills you.
KDF cloakers are not the issue. If you wish to nerf something then look to your honest plain speaking romulans whom are knowingly OP. Balance them.
Bi0tch to the Devs over Elite Phaser. The KDF did not create them.
I am not concerned with the parity of ship numbers. I support or suggest new ships for the KDF because we are missing the obviuos Alien non-klingon ships for some allied KDF species .
Out Boffs are ok. We have pirate which is nice as it fits the warlike naturs of the KDF with its max 7.5% damage boost.
The KDF and its fanbase have been open about many imbalances that need fixing in game over the years. Our fighting to defend what we do not see as imbalanced is not a fault of character on our part. Check your privledge before the pedistal breaks.
Serial victum are two interesting words. In so much as some feds play to their definition often and claim the KDF as the oppressor more often than the boy who cried wolf.
R.I.P
No kidding
One side...... the cloaked side push's a button and cloaks
The other side has to do all of the things you suggest to get to be even
Doesnt seem very fair to me
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Besides if your are going to cry and ***** about evil KDF nerfing of the feds toys let me remind you that fedwhine got the KDF siphon drones nerfed, orion pets nerfed on thier pillaging, the AA getting nerfed, and even our factional identity as having carriers and battle cruisers.
As the earth sayings goes "Your TRIBBLE yet smells just as badly".
Your crying the valdore is just as blind. We KDF had nothing to do with its changes.
Only unbalanced cloaking ingame that may exist is on the Roms, in that they may be too good at it.
Its a truth I accept as the costs of my actions, as I am one who agreed that the Romulans derserved all battle cloaks as a faction. Maybe it was a bit unsound, too late now as the die is cast. I can live with it.
We complained that the Fed v Fed que would ruin pvp ingame as it would allow the feds to hide and only play with themselves.
We where right.
Only a small amount of you bothered to que up and most that did where not always the better known fed pvpers.
I did notice that the tourney premade and often higher experienced private pug games the are normally ruled by fed player victorys and the KDF mainly does well in the random pug ques.
FvK random pugging in the ques fell off because the average Kirker fed who enjoys pvping against only his fed peers and fed attacks died more often pugging against KDF. They cried foul, Op, and other BS, lost heart and stopped queing.
Funny thing is that when ever a premade or equally good fed team slummed it in the FvK pugs, the KDF players tended to die often and often.
In reality we KDF once fit in the middle of pvp capability, above the average pugger but below fed premades. I think we have fallen a little lower due to the roms.
Of course cloaking is an advantage. We have never said it wasnt that I know of.
Its also now an advantage that the feds enjoy on four of their ships plus the only vessel specidlfically designed to counter cloaking (a ship getting a buff soon).
Cloak is actually easy to break, both by legitimate ingame means and ingame bugged things like pets that fire on cloaked PCs.
If we KDF are being denied a 5Tac console vessel because the Devs think that cloaking innately and such firepower is too OP then why did they give the Roms, who have far better cloaking, such vessels?
R.I.P
The other side is that the first side can buff thier detection power levels way higher than those that try to buff stealth. Detection versus Stealth is not even. Detection can reach more higher ability while buffing stealth is near pointless. Basically detection > stealth.
R.I.P
understood
That means both sides need to start out as equals
klingons cloak until range 10
Fed sensors detect at range 10
Now
Both sides add skills boffs doffs consoles to remain cloaked or detect cloak equally
That would be equal and fair
What we have right now is a hopeless comedy
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So much of what you typed was so wrong its not even funny... You sure proved my point with that silly rant. Maybe when you have calmed down you can retype that so its understandable.. ok thanks.
Ps: Fix your paragraphing.. I may not be the best at typing but.. dang you take the cake on that one.
I find the fact that any fed can always buff their ability to detect cloak to higher levels than the KDF can buff thier ability to conceal themselves in cloak as an advantage to the feds.
It allows them to be slightly better at spotting than we KDF can hide.
The roms may be different as they are better at hiding.
R.I.P
Who made you the forum post TRIBBLE grammar commander? Chomp on it. Where am I in the wrong on what I have said? Much of what I have said insanely funny in a manner of speaking.
Its hard to type such posts on a S5, itty bitty virtual keyboard.
Still you read it, maybe not gotten it, but you did read it.
Please resume the fed victum rant of how bad you all have it because of cloaking. Its what we KDF groupie have come to expect from the golden boy fed kool aid drinkers.
R.I.P
you all know this can all be fix..
fix all weapons range so that Fed KDF and roms so they all have different range's for weapon's..
well I just say it give feds more range LOL
KDF don't need it :P
He wont listen man.. even when you point out that detection is not nearly what they claim.. and the fact they still seem to think that its balanced having to dump skills into detection when they do not have to do squat for there cloak.. its pretty sad really..
I even came up with a simple Star Fleet ship only ability suggestion of a 30 sec cool down sensor sweep that would decloak ships at 5km range.. and they blew up as if it unbalanced.. if detection was sooo easy then 5km range shouldn't be scary.. sheesh
Its so funny that they claim cloak is hardly worth it... and hardly effect game play. Then they insult and attack any one who says other wise... if its so worthless.. why defended it so much.. right.
If a fed chooses not to buff sensors thats thier fault, not any of the KDF. Use the tools availible you or not is your choice.
A KDF vessel with unbuffed stealth is way easy to spot, thats most KDF players.
Your idea was to have a sensor sweep that was bigger and useble as an innate ability of all star fleet ships.
Some KDF actuall thought it fair.
I said it needed to be just like innate cloaking with a long cd and not being usable while in combat, or no deal.
You disagreed and said was unfair request.
We defend because we are still tired of the feds multiple year crying bitchfest attempt to steal it completely because they think its OP its built in. Lets not worry about how the feds desire it is innate without the balancing factors the Devs deem are needed.
The KDF battle to defend cloak will always be as persitant as the fed battle cry of , "Star Trek is all about us!".
R.I.P
You better calm down.. telling player to yell at the devs.. and telling people to "chomp on it" well your about to cross that line.. better watch it.
You want to know what wrong with what you typed... just about everything.
its was KDF complaining about phaser buids that got them nerfed. Argument that "this is stupid we come out of cloak and are instantly shut down by Federation ship balls with bfaw" that was the whining that was taking place at the time.
The Fed on Fed queing was KDF cloaks imbalance fault.. simple logic.. KDF were imbalanced in pvp.. so do not fight KDF. Pretty simple logic there..
There is no counter cloaking ship.. this is a out and out lie. There is a counter cloaking console.. the ship has NO built in ability.
Saying Romulan cloak is imbalance but yours is fine.. ya that being a hypocrite. Both have balance issue.. but at least romulans are giving up 40 system power for it.. at least they tried to balance.. but power creep kinda shot that 40 system power issue in the foot.
I could go on but you will just rant about this post anyhow.
Dont blaim the KDF because the fed complainers broke the Nebulas chance at innate because of their complaints of fed players that innate cloaking was useless, that it would be better if said innate powers where consoles that could be removed so the slot could be useful.
The Devs did that and gave an extra consoles to boot.
We KDF didnt TRIBBLE the feds cloakers up. The feds did. We KDF didnt even have any Cstore ships when this happened.
R.I.P
Now we know you are full of it.. the change was a f2p change.. had nothing to with fed's or KDF.. keep dreaming that pal.
Defiant's innate came at a cost of a console.. so do not try to act like it was even.. Federation players said having to give up a console for a innate wasn't fair.. and so they made it a console that forced you to give up a console slot any how. Totally ignoring the fact the Federation players even then were saying that it should be a built in function like Klingon ships.. that it shouldn't ever have had to give up a console spot built in or other wise when no other cloaking ship did.
You have very immagintive way at look at things I will give you that.
Anyways, putting that aside, about the whole 'stealth vs detection' thing, I have no problem with Feds having the best at it. I don't mind Fed Roms having very good detection as well. Only real issue I have is that the T'varo can have the bonus from the TDF console running and be under cloak, thus able to detect other cloaked ships, while being unseen itself.
Now, that said...stealth vs detection is bugged. Not in the math, that's fine still. What I mean is in the various items and such that should be boosting Stealth (either flatly, or the Stealth skill) are not working. Namely one or both of the deflectors from the Romulan rep (cannot remember which one or both it is), and the various EPTA skills do not actually give the +Stealth like they should. BOFFs seem to work: Nausicaans, Romulans, Remans, all work perfectly fine, but some other stuff does not.
To me, bugs take priority over everything else in terms of balance discussions. whether they help me or hurt me, bugs are BUGS, as in, something doesn't work right. Only after those are fixed can things continue on to decide if they are balanced or not.
Case and point for that: Borg 2-piece. It was bugged. People moaned about it being a nerf, etc etc, but it was a bug. It was providing a better heal to ships with a higher hull modifier than it should have been. So they fixed the bug, unifying the heal people gained from it. And that's that. Before whether you considered the 2-piece overpowered or not was irrelevant IMO, as a bug is a bug, and needs to get fixed. Now that it is fixed, and working like it should, can thoughts about that really keep going.
I agree with this statement.
It's pretty much a case that until bugs are resolved, one cannot really discuss the state of things - because without the bugs being resolved, one is not experiencing the state of things.
Of course not...but an ability or a piece of gear that is supposed to add X should add X...and it's been over a year, longer for some - where the issue has persisted.
Oh god, don't remind me of that thread discussing the change. I had a lenghty "discussion" in there with someone very oppionated. The horror.
I don't know if i can take anyone serious anymore, that wants something the other faction has. If we just take everything everyone else has, then there won't be any need for factions. I feel like it's the new players, that are to lazy to try out another faction or simply don't like the vibe of one, that are actually complaining about X being OP for the KDF, so either nerf or gimme. On the other hand some posters really like to take those few idi0ts and make them the poster child of a whole faction ... meh it's easy i suppose, but also pretty lazy.
While i agree that there should be balance (especially considering thos damned romulans), i don't think the risk reward ration on cloak detection and stealth is really ballanced, but this -of course- doesn't warrant that the Feds should get a innate cloak. I hope this never happens. I also hope, that no lockbox ship with an innate battlecloak ever sees the light of day, because this will certainly be the end of faction uniqueness.
On the matter of cloak detection
Detection: You need a sci ship, because thos have the best innate detection value. You need EptA. You'd also need a nice detection boosting deflector. Either the jem one or the romulan rep one. You will probably want the TDF console. You need very high Aux levels, which can cripple a ship. You need some +Sensor skill consoles. You need to invest heavily into the skill Starship Sensors which is a T3 skill and thus quite expansive. And on top of all, you'll probably want to be a sci captain for sensor scan.
Stealth: You need a ship with cloak. Stealth skill is not needed, because the payoff is just dreadfull and can be easily mitigated through a few point of aux power. The boffs that boost your stealth are readily available and even so they don't stack nearly everyone has at least one, because they are "best in slot" anyways.
I think anybody can see that the cost of opportunity is a bit skewed here. Sensor scan and TDF only allow stealth detection in bursts, so they are only usefull if not too many cloaked ships are around.
A snooper does exactly what its name implies. It detects and does nothing else and has to sacrifice a lot to be good at it. Also, you can't simply incorporate the snooper design into your ship, because it would make you a lot less viable in your role.
Thank you.. this is what I've been saying.. lets look at the issue... well thought out post.. I salute you.
They can ignore me all they want.. but years people have seen this imbalance. It its them that have there eyes closed and ears covered mumbling its balanced.
to Mimey you have a very na
Pro:
Initiative
Con:
Regular cloaks require being out of combat to engage.
Those ships have less shields and shield mods.
KDF Battlecloaking:
Pro:
Initiative
Can be used in combat
Con:
Much less shields and shield mods.
Using in battle will get you killed more often then not.
Raiders are generally the only ship options most have (non-lifers).
So break down Raiders:
Pro:
Uni slots (at the time made them uniquely versatile).
Speed/Agility
Flanking (if it's even in game yet)
Cons:
Less specialized console layout options. 3-3-3 or 3-3-4. No 3-3-4 Sci option.
One less weapon mount point.
One less Ensign Slot.
Much less Hull.
Lockbox and Special event and Z-Store ships have closed the speed/agility gap considerably. Many Fed ships were given a speed/turn boost w/in the last year or two.
Likewise the variety of builds are no longer unique iirc the Sci destroyer made possible the last significant Sci Commander Lt Comm Tac available to Fed ships.
This is just Feds not even the Rommy Fed options. But, it's plain the uniqueness that was the Raider has been significantly reduce over time.
The Brel my favorite ship, but it's not been an option for PvP dog fighting for years. Even then a 5 Raider team wouldn't make a dent vs a good Fed team. Even w/the initiative advantage of BCs.
I'm curious for those who thing that cloak is the huge advantage they claim, when's the last time you took a Raider into a PvP Arena match?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
10 chars ... red text.
LOLz... - 40 power levels have nothing to do with the Battle Cloak, it was set because of Warbird Sig Abilities... Cryptic have consider using - 20 pwr levels instead while both Fed and KDF testers agreed it would be more OP due to the effectiveness of the sig abilities so the dev's changed it.
I was there beta testing the Romulan faction in pre-LoR on the tribble server while u still could not or don't want to figure out how to spec ur Fed toon well in PvP against KDF players on the holodeck... I know alot of Fed PvP players that can withstand a powerful alpha strike from even the best offensive KDF players while u can't last 0.2 sec into a match... which is why u still complaining to this day and now playing as a Fedmulan.
Besides the loss of -40 pwr levels because of the Warbird Sig abilities, Romulan Warbirds has no disadvantage what so ever in any other Ships stats... All Warbirds have full Boff Statiions with most having a uni Boff Station... Hull, Shield, Turn Rate that is comparable to Fed Ships plus a Battle Cloak and top it off the dev's add Captain and BOff's space traits that superior to any KDF and Fed space traits combined.
What does the KDF ships have overall advantage with Cloaks?... A first strike option for 5 sec, and what happen if that fail against ppl that knows how to survive an alpha strike (which obviously u can't)... BoP's have less weapons, weak hull, weak shield mod., 1 less boff ability, but can recloak in combat... Raptors have weak turn rates and weak shields, can't recloak... which only makes Battle Cruiser the most effective overall KDF ship type despite having weaker hull and/or Shield Mod (Bortas) but like the raptor it too cannot cloak in combat.
Again. I will put in simple words if u still don't understand what i type above since my engrish typing skills is poor (engrish is not my first language)
Romulan Battle Cloak on Warbirds with stats of those of Fed ships, Sig abilities at the expense of Power levels, excellent BOff's space traits that can boast Romulan Battle Cloaks dmg abilities. Rom Warbirds can Cloak in Combat.
KDF Cloaks on Warships with stats less durable than Fed ships, Most KDF ships cannot Cloak in Combat, No KDF BOff's to increase effectiveness to stealth dmg abilities.
Despite the myth around the Fed side about KDF ships, the KDF does not have more powerful offensive war vessels than Fed or Rom in fact the KDF only have a few ships that can match them.