Star Fleet Battles is not Star Trek.
It is not set in the Star Trek universe and is not allowed to carry the name "Star Trek" in its title.
Not even its own authors consider it to be part of Trek, only based on it.
Here's what the people in authority at Amarillo Design Bureau say on the matter in their "Prime Directive" RPG on page 183 of their rulebook:
"This is the Star Fleet Universe, not Star Trek. When we created this universe, we reviewed the available source data. We used some, ignored others (considering some things to be "plot devieces" with no real basis in technology), and when we found multiple sources in conflict, we picked the most logical interpretation and rejected the rest. After we published our decisions (in the form of numerous game products), new source material appeared which contradicted the SFU. That doesn't make us wrong, or the data wrong. Data that doesn't fit is from the other parallel universe and won't always match up"
So if you use SFB or the SFU in general as a "source" you're successfully invalidating your own argument.
The RPG Prime Directive was released way way after Federation and the Empire and Star Fleet Battles... its At the time F&D and SFB was released it was the licensed Star Trek game. IT was only after the reboot of star trek that Prime Directive was released and the Star Trek Movies started going in to a different direction and that's when paramount bought Star Trek. Due to this they lost license and any thing released after that sell was not allowed to be used in Star Fleet Universe material.
They had to put a discloser per paramount. This was do to the movies totally changing things compared to the TV show. They never came to the agreement like Cryptic did with Paramount after they bought the rights to it
So it doesn't change the fact that the base game was a licensed Star Trek product.. this is why there was never a Next Gen. SFB game.. they only had license for TOS and for the early wars
Damn....you're right. It seems like it was yesterday, but it's actually been 2 years since then. :eek:
Yeah, I overlooked the fact that the 2012 Winter Event Jem Bug was not boosted to 5 tac.consoles yet.
Over a year? Hehe...I've been using my Bortasqu' since it was released and I've been and still am thoroughly enjoying the ship. It is and always has been a beast, but now the new SA took the Command one that I was usually using anyway to a whole new level. Never had much issues to make full use of the ship, but then again - the slow heavy ships come natural to me. I actually had more issues getting used to escorts.
Heh, the tac Bortas had 5 tac consoles before it was cool.
Same here. Been using mine since it came out pretty much. I kinda retired it with the release of the Mogh, but might hop back into it again one day. I used it in spite of all the negativity people had for it for so long, and still kinda do.
Honestly, the biggest problem I have with the Bortas isn't with any of it's ship stats (though I will call BS nowadays on it's weaker cloak and only a 1 shield modifier), it's the fact that it's poor sales (for understandable reasons why people didn't want it) was used as a long-standing justification to not give the Klingon faction ANY C-store ships for so long.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The RPG Prime Directive was released way way after Federation and the Empire and Star Fleet Battles... its At the time F&D and SFB was released it was the licensed Star Trek game. IT was only after the reboot of star trek that Prime Directive was released and the Star Trek Movies started going in to a different direction and that's when paramount bought Star Trek. Due to this they lost license and any thing released after that sell was not allowed to be used in Star Fleet Universe material.
They had to put a discloser per paramount. This was do to the movies totally changing things compared to the TV show. They never came to the agreement like Cryptic did with Paramount after they bought the rights to it
So it doesn't change the fact that the base game was a licensed Star Trek product.. this is why there was never a Next Gen. SFB game.. they only had license for TOS and for the early wars
It's not relevant when the RPG was released, it's still set in the same universe and thus the same rules apply.
Also SFB didn't originally have a license from Paramount. It had a license from Franz Joseph who wrote the "Star Fleet Technical Manual" who had a license from Paramount.
So it was merely a "second degree" license. They didn't get a license from Paramount until later. And part of that settlement is that the material is not allowed to use the Star Trek name. So not even by that standard it was ever a licensed Star Trek Product but a licensed product based on a licensed product.
Could you imagine decloaking on some poor souls aft hull with Flanking + 5 Fleet Exploiter consoles+Fire on my mark (or sensor scan). You would hear a cry around the world beginning for klingon nerfs.
The Flanking Bonus is much reduced against players, but it still is a boost. Nothing like the wrecking in PVE that you could do with a BOP.
It's not relevant when the RPG was released, it's still set in the same universe and thus the same rules apply.
Also SFB didn't originally have a license from Paramount. It had a license from Franz Joseph who wrote the "Star Fleet Technical Manual" who had a license from Paramount.
So it was merely a "second degree" license. They didn't get a license from Paramount until later. And part of that settlement is that the material is not allowed to use the Star Trek name. So not even by that standard it was ever a licensed Star Trek Product but a licensed product based on a licensed product.
Really? ok man what ever.. your just arguing to argue.. Its licensed from the guy who did the Tech manual.. the ideas behind ALL the tech in Star Trek.. and he licenses a game maker to make a game based on that tech.. and you blow it off. There some logic for ya... It was a licensed Star Trek product.. you can whine snivel about it all you want.. its a Star Trek product.. deal with it man...
Even with out that.. how often are you watching Federation ships being blown out of the sky by Klingon ships in the T.V shows? How may times do you see Federation ships losing one on one fights with Klingon ships? Hell in DS9 when a fleet of 50 Klingon ships are attacking a space station the Klingons have another 25 more ships incoming.. and Sisko threatens with my 9 star ships wil be here 1st.. 9 Federation Star Ships vs 50+ Klingon.. and they back off.. its in the lore the T.V shows the board games that Federation ships were more powerful ship for ship.
of course you can not have that in a game.. other wise no one would play the KDF.. but lore wise you can not argue that Klingon ships were equal in power to Federation ships just has never been that way.
I agree with the guy above. When Sisco took the Mirror Defiant out on its first run they forced The Regent's (Mirror Worf) Flag Negh'Var to retreat.
Also every instance of a ship with a cloak that needed to use it, always had to break off from the fight and cloak. Thus the very idea of using a cloak in the middle of a battle is not in the show. The ships always had to use evasive manuevers and break incoming fire to use the cloak. I think the biggest complaint about the Cloak is when you are in the middle of a fight and people use the battle cloak as a "get out of Jail free" card. As soon as they start to loose or are about to pop they cloak right in the middle of the fight. Rommies are worse with the singularity jump / cloak trick. If STO wanted to be more realistic you would have to have 3 seconds without incoming fire to be able to cloak. For all ships. If you are getting shot at you should not be able to cloak to avoid getting beaten. There should be a delay from when you activate the cloak your shields drop but you can still be seen for 1.5 seconds and have %20 loss of hull damage resistance. So if you try to cloak right in the middle of a fight just to deny someone a kill its going to backfire. If you want out of the fight you have to get out. Then you can hide, heal, get ready for the next alpha strike. BOP could have a shorter evasive cooldown or something to allow them to get out of incoming fire. But this: "Decloak-Alpha Strike-Dam it didnt work-oh TRIBBLE this guys got me-Ha, Ha Ill just cloak and run" tatic is just as bad a people that log out in the middle of a fight to deny a kill. Just my two strips.
Really? ok man what ever.. your just arguing to argue.. Its licensed from the guy who did the Tech manual.. the ideas behind ALL the tech in Star Trek.. and he licenses a game maker to make a game based on that tech.. and you blow it off. There some logic for ya... It was a licensed Star Trek product.. you can whine snivel about it all you want.. its a Star Trek product.. deal with it man...
Even with out that.. how often are you watching Federation ships being blown out of the sky by Klingon ships in the T.V shows? How may times do you see Federation ships losing one on one fights with Klingon ships? Hell in DS9 when a fleet of 50 Klingon ships are attacking a space station the Klingons have another 25 more ships incoming.. and Sisko threatens with my 9 star ships wil be here 1st.. 9 Federation Star Ships vs 50+ Klingon.. and they back off.. its in the lore the T.V shows the board games that Federation ships were more powerful ship for ship.
of course you can not have that in a game.. other wise no one would play the KDF.. but lore wise you can not argue that Klingon ships were equal in power to Federation ships just has never been that way.
Ok, I really don't like how much you've been derailing this thread. But I am gonna reply tot his at least.
So...you say that 'Star Fleet Battles' was a licensed Star Trek product. Ok, we will go with that. BUT that does not make it automatically 'canon'. In fact, at best, anything 'licensed' is soft-canon. Any game, any book, etc is never more than soft-canon.
Even STO itself ignores pretty much all other games and books. Like the Destiny and Typhon Pact novels (exception to that being the Vesta being in the game) take the 'normal' ST universe to a VERY different degree than STO has.
You are trying to justify Feds being better through other things that are, as said, at beast, soft-canon. Meaning that it fits the ST universe, but doesn't make it automatically true.
Besides, just because something worked in some way in something else, doesn't mean it has to immediately work here. Ever played Star Trek: Conquest on the PS2? Rather 'meh' little turn-based strategy game. Wanna know how you won? Build nothing but fleets of the largest ships (such as Galaxy class ships for the Federation) and just stomp your way through. Does that mean a group of Galaxy class ships should be an easy way to stomp through anything in STO just because it worked in that?
Also, about that fight in DS9, Gowron didn't back off because those Starfleet reinforcements of 9 ships or whatever were magically stronger than the entire fleet. He stopped because the Sisko convinced him that the Dominion was the one who wanted all this fighting in the first place, and the Federation wasn't the real enemy here.
Keep in mind as well that Sisko was putting his best poker face on at the time. The shields on DS9 had fallen once, and O'Brien got them back up, though he wasn't sure for how long. Odo had managed to contain the boarding parties, but also wasn't sure how long that would last as well.
Martok said that they could still win despite all of that, though the Sisko replied that they couldn't before the reinforcements arrived. Or in other words, it would be a very hard, bloody battle. Now of course Martok at the time was being impersonated by a Changling, so that might have had something to do with it. But it is still possible that he/it was right though.
Something besides all that: It's a TV show. They, the writers, are gonna do SOMETHING to keep dramatic tension up. They could have said that no reinforcements were coming, or they could say another hundred Klingon ships are inbound, or whatever. Point is that a writer is gonna do something to keep the tension running, etc etc. That doesn't make Starfleet ships more powerful than Klingon ones.
The fight was ended (not really a 'win' for either side) because of reasoning and logic. Including stuff from Klingon philosophy itself. Gowron realized what was going on as such, and stopped the attack, ending a conflict before it escalated and got worse, because the Sisko convinced him of what was going on.
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." - Kahless
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Ok, I really don't like how much you've been derailing this thread. But I am gonna reply tot his at least.
So...you say that 'Star Fleet Battles' was a licensed Star Trek product. Ok, we will go with that. BUT that does not make it automatically 'canon'. In fact, at best, anything 'licensed' is soft-canon. Any game, any book, etc is never more than soft-canon.
Even STO itself ignores pretty much all other games and books. Like the Destiny and Typhon Pact novels (exception to that being the Vesta being in the game) take the 'normal' ST universe to a VERY different degree than STO has.
You are trying to justify Feds being better through other things that are, as said, at beast, soft-canon. Meaning that it fits the ST universe, but doesn't make it automatically true.
Besides, just because something worked in some way in something else, doesn't mean it has to immediately work here. Ever played Star Trek: Conquest on the PS2? Rather 'meh' little turn-based strategy game. Wanna know how you won? Build nothing but fleets of the largest ships (such as Galaxy class ships for the Federation) and just stomp your way through. Does that mean a group of Galaxy class ships should be an easy way to stomp through anything in STO just because it worked in that?
Also, about that fight in DS9, Gowron didn't back off because those Starfleet reinforcements of 9 ships or whatever were magically stronger than the entire fleet. He stopped because the Sisko convinced him that the Dominion was the one who wanted all this fighting in the first place, and the Federation wasn't the real enemy here.
Keep in mind as well that Sisko was putting his best poker face on at the time. The shields on DS9 had fallen once, and O'Brien got them back up, though he wasn't sure for how long. Odo had managed to contain the boarding parties, but also wasn't sure how long that would last as well.
Martok said that they could still win despite all of that, though the Sisko replied that they couldn't before the reinforcements arrived. Or in other words, it would be a very hard, bloody battle. Now of course Martok at the time was being impersonated by a Changling, so that might have had something to do with it. But it is still possible that he/it was right though.
Something besides all that: It's a TV show. They, the writers, are gonna do SOMETHING to keep dramatic tension up. They could have said that no reinforcements were coming, or they could say another hundred Klingon ships are inbound, or whatever. Point is that a writer is gonna do something to keep the tension running, etc etc. That doesn't make Starfleet ships more powerful than Klingon ones.
The fight was ended (not really a 'win' for either side) because of reasoning and logic. Including stuff from Klingon philosophy itself. Gowron realized what was going on as such, and stopped the attack, ending a conflict before it escalated and got worse, because the Sisko convinced him of what was going on.
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." - Kahless
Wow.. talk about sugar coating...
Go watch the show again... Worf, Gowron, Sisko all understood that with the Federation reinforcements the Klingon Fleet would be decimated. That when the real threat came that the Klingon fleet would be so badly damaged that it wouldn't be able to fight. The hole "to win a battle but lose a Empire was no victory and to lose a battle to save a Empire was no defeat"
So a Fleet of 9 Federation ships + a star base was going to decimate a Klingon task force.. This is what was being portrayed in that fight.
Also I like how you cherry pick what lore you want to use and discount other.. while you totally ignore the fact you never see Klingon ships going 1 on 1 with Federation sips in fights and whining. In the shows that are 100% canon in anyway.
The ties in to this whole thread that Klingon are Op or not.. is there balance is in game and the argument that Klingons have better War ships.. well according to lore they didn't have "better" war ships they had more of them.. some how people for get that the Klingons were warriors at heart but doesn't mean there ships were better at war then the Federation. I brought up other lore showing that back in 1970's board game... the one that came out when it was thought Star Trek was dead on gone on TV that it the Klingon Empire was shown to have numbers and would over whelm a opponent that it was the Federation that put more in to the individual ships.. quality vs quantity.. this is also carried on in the TV and movies showing Federation ships being over all more powerful. In all the lore it has pointed to Federation having ship for ship more powerful ships
I in no way think that in a game that it should be represented as it is in other Star Trek lore.. after all that would be unbalanced. This claim of Klingon war ship superiority is only in the heads of players.. its no backing in the lore of Star Trek.
There is a lot of room for balance changes in the game. to simple things like Phasers needing a balance pass after there nerf a few years back. To ship imbalance between faction such as dedicated Sci ships for KDF. To cloak vs non cloaking ships... to Star Fleet ships having something unique to them and KDF and Federation needing a balance pass on space traits for boffs more so for the KDF to bring them in line to Romulan space boffs.
Nowadays, The entire idea of KDF ships are superior is a myth and just propaganda by most Feds players lacking skill in more ways than a thousand...
How many Indeginous/Align KDF ships have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons?... like 2, Bortas and Mogh
How many Fed designs have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons? um... let me see... Defiant, Patrol Escort, Avenger, Kumari and it's variants, Prometeus, etc.. not to mention the Feds have more 4 Tactical Consoles ships than the Entire Tier 5 KDF ship line up combined.
It's someways interesting that alot of Fed still crying about KDF ships having a Cloak while at the same time most of them say nothing about Romulan Ships with their Battle Cloaks with BOff's having space traits that can cut down the Cloak CD time to 10 sec and/or increase attack duration while most KDF ships on the other hand cannot Cloak in combat nor do they have any indigenous BOff's with space traits that can improve Cloak abilities except for Stealth skill increase.
If some of u Feds disagree and still believe that KDF ships are superior then read the first line of my Sig...
Nowadays, The entire idea of KDF ships are superior is a myth and just propaganda by most Feds players lacking skill in more ways than a thousand...
How many Indeginous/Align KDF ships have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons?... like 2, Bortas and Mogh
How many Fed designs have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons? um... let me see... Defiant, Patrol Escort, Avenger, Kumari and it's variants, Prometeus, etc.. not to mention the Feds have more 4 Tactical Consoles ships than the Entire Tier 5 KDF ship line up combined.
It's someways interesting that alot of Fed still crying about KDF ships having a Cloak while at the same time most of them say nothing about Romulan Ships with their Battle Cloaks with BOff's having space traits that can cut down the Cloak CD time to 10 sec and/or increase attack duration while most KDF ships on the other hand cannot Cloak in combat nor do they have any indigenous BOff's with space traits that can improve Cloak abilities except for Stealth skill increase.
If some of u Feds disagree and still believe that KDF ships are superior then read the first line of my Sig...
No its that Romulan players are honest with them self's that there op.. Klingon players lie to them selfs that cloak is blanaced vs non cloak....
So I made the joke that 5 tac console escorts are Fed and romulan only.. and if you want them play that faction... its the same line we get form KDF players saying if you want cloak go play KDF or Romulan...
Simple truth.. there are balance issue with all the factions and need to be addressed... but are ignored for years. In stead we get more and more C-Store ships.. with out fixing some core issues with all three factions..
Nowadays, The entire idea of KDF ships are superior is a myth and just propaganda by most Feds players lacking skill in more ways than a thousand...
How many Indeginous/Align KDF ships have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons?... like 2, Bortas and Mogh
How many Fed designs have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons? um... let me see... Defiant, Patrol Escort, Avenger, Kumari and it's variants, Prometeus, etc.. not to mention the Feds have more 4 Tactical Consoles ships than the Entire Tier 5 KDF ship line up combined.
It's someways interesting that alot of Fed still crying about KDF ships having a Cloak while at the same time most of them say nothing about Romulan Ships with their Battle Cloaks with BOff's having space traits that can cut down the Cloak CD time to 10 sec and/or increase attack duration while most KDF ships on the other hand cannot Cloak in combat nor do they have any indigenous BOff's with space traits that can improve Cloak abilities except for Stealth skill increase.
If some of u Feds disagree and still believe that KDF ships are superior then read the first line of my Sig...
That's because even the obsolete Birds of Prey are still the Fed / Fed-Rom boogeyman. Because, ******nit, it has a Battle Cloak!!!
The main reason why most klingons in this thread and any thread like it do not want Feds to have a battlecloak is simple
They want someone to shoot at who CANNOT cloak
passive cloak/battlecloak should be detected at range 10 by passive sensors
Skills.......consoles....Doffs/Boff's at this point should determine who is cloaked and who is detected on a equal footing
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I mean have you seen the KDFs MVAE ... errr I mean the 5 forward weapon Andorian Escort.... no wait I meant the Tempest with its 5 Tactical Console Slots ...... wait what
When it comes to PVP most Fed heavy players fear the unseen but they dare not speak out against the Romulan vessels and their Battle Cloaks for fear that the second skin might be weakened so they instead lash out at the next best target.... KDF Raiders are OP because of their flanking and their Battle Cloaks :rolleyes:
If some Fed players had their way every Federation Vessel would come standard with a Phased Battle Cloak that can fire all weapons while the cloak is engaged
No its that Romulan players are honest with them self's that there op.. Klingon players lie to them selfs that cloak is blanaced vs non cloak....
So I made the joke that 5 tac console escorts are Fed and romulan only.. and if you want them play that faction... its the same line we get form KDF players saying if you want cloak go play KDF or Romulan...
Simple truth.. there are balance issue with all the factions and need to be addressed... but are ignored for years. In stead we get more and more C-Store ships.. with out fixing some core issues with all three factions..
You want the simple truth?
Take a look at this. Remember what the ships, their stats, console setups, BOFF setups consist of. Because I'll tell you now, the imbalance is not in the KDF's favor is you think it is. The pecking order of power, ship selection, ship capability goes in this order:
1. Romulans: Not so much in ship selection options, but in sheer Overpoweredness.
2. Feds: Sheer ship selection with outstanding options across the board except in Carriers. Escorts, Cruisers, Science Vessels, all have options in greatly varying playstyles and console arrangements. 4-5 SCI/ENG/TAC Console arragements all over the place. Lots of good ships to be found in the Escort, Cruiser, Sci Ship selection. Still loses out on sheer OP'ness that the Roms have.
3. KDF: More ship options than Romulans, but like the Feds, lose on sheer power. Ship options are much more limited due to Cryptic's lack of attention (that was thrown to the Feds over the years). The faction is very limited in options in the Escort and Sci Vessel lineups. Battlecruisers and Carriers have been holding up well. There is also a great lacking of specialist 5-Console ships. Whether it be TAC or SCI.
The cloak vs non-cloak balance is fine. The point is even more moot when you consider that all cloak-capable KDF ships are standard cloaks except for the BOPs, and once you're in combat, it's useless past the 5 second ambush bonus. Then the Raptors are dealing with inferior hulls and shields, and in today's STO, even inferior Turn Rates.
Most KDF Battle Cruisers compare to Most Fed Cruisers
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
- Can use Dual Cannons
- Turn Rate
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull Mod.
- 1 Less Cruiser Command (No KDF Battle Cruiser have ''Attract Fire'' that increases Damage Resistance and add more resistance with more players nearby
The main reason why most klingons in this thread and any thread like it do not want Feds to have a battlecloak is simple
They want someone to shoot at who CANNOT cloak
passive cloak/battlecloak should be detected at range 10 by passive sensors
Skills.......consoles....Doffs/Boff's at this point should determine who is cloaked and who is detected on a equal footing
You DO realize how good Cloak Detection is in this game? Most esp. by the Feds with their tools / consoles???
Or you just want to see cloaked ships with no effort, no specialization, no dedication put into it except by warping into the map with any random ship?
Oh, BTW, we are living in the spirit of the thread... because 'lo and behold, the Feds are coming to cry about the OP KDF despite themselves being Feds with an outstanding ship lineup, or better yet, Fed-Roms.
That's the kicker... Fed-Roms crying about the KDF
The main reason why most klingons in this thread and any thread like it do not want Feds to have a battlecloak is simple
They want someone to shoot at who CANNOT cloak
passive cloak/battlecloak should be detected at range 10 by passive sensors
Skills.......consoles....Doffs/Boff's at this point should determine who is cloaked and who is detected on a equal footing
Back when I Pvped with my Federation Science Captains I could detect a Cloaked Vessel from about 8k out with just a few points and about 80 aux power and I imagine it could be done just has easily today if not more so.
Problem is no one wants to invest any points in a skill or slot any equipment that does not increase their damage.
The ability to detect cloaked vessels is already in game, players just choose not to use them because they don't want to pay for them.
Back when I Pvped with my Federation Science Captains I could detect a Cloaked Vessel from about 8k out with just a few points and about 80 aux power and I imagine it could be done just has easily today if not more so.
Problem is no one wants to invest any points in a skill or slot any equipment that does not increase their damage.
The ability to detect cloaked vessels is already in game, players just choose not to use them because they don't want to pay for them.
You're getting it wrong, errab... they want to detect cloaked vessels with no effort, no dedication. The tools are already there, most esp. with the Feds who have some gamebreaking detection methods. But most just don't want to put the effort and want to automatically see cloaked vessels.
Back when I Pvped with my Federation Science Captains I could detect a Cloaked Vessel from about 8k out with just a few points and about 80 aux power and I imagine it could be done just has easily today if not more so.
Problem is no one wants to invest any points in a skill or slot any equipment that does not increase their damage.
The ability to detect cloaked vessels is already in game, players just choose not to use them because they don't want to pay for them.
I totally agree, a few times in PvP these dayz, i notice a few snoop ships that can see my ship as far as 12 km and thats with 9 points on my Stealth Skill, Embassy Rommie BOff's with a Superior Subterfuge Space Trait, and my Aux power is at 130...
And still alot of players still complain on ppl using Cloaks and they do not even try to make a build to counter them... just now like as it have been in this game, ppl are just building either pure DPS or pure Tank builds. most ppl that do made a snoop builds are basically ppl that are in Fleet Premades where their disadvantages in other areas just to detect cloaked ships would be make up with teamwork and cross heals.
You're getting it wrong, errab... they want to detect cloaked vessels with no effort, no dedication. The tools are already there, most esp. with the Feds who have some gamebreaking detection methods. But most just don't want to put the effort and want to automatically see cloaked vessels.
If other liscenced Star Trek products or relevant to the greater story that is the IP, regardless when they where released and approved, then I know of several other individual products that trump the lore of a few other video games. Books, tech manuals, and novels to see the least.
Arguing that the lore of one old video game is the set in stone only truth is stupid.
HIgh skilling in sensors, and add consoles, equip and doff to boost AuX or sensors, will allow you to see cloaked ships easily at 12km or more.
Except for all the ******** about how 'easy' it is to see cloaked ships its meh. Tried it a few weeks ago just to see what all the whining was about. Fed-rom Eng, T'varo, 94 in sensors, EPTA2, 130 aux. Went to Kerrat, just flying around to see what I could see, and my total range was about 4 km detection, and given the speeds involved and the amount of map to look around, that just caught me some glimpses here and there. For the sheer quantity of whining around here, I was expecting a whole lot more, but instead it just made it seem like the people complaining about being easily detected were as big a crybaby as anyone.
Except for all the ******** about how 'easy' it is to see cloaked ships its meh. Tried it a few weeks ago just to see what all the whining was about. Fed-rom Eng, T'varo, 94 in sensors, EPTA2, 130 aux. Went to Kerrat, just flying around to see what I could see, and my total range was about 4 km detection, and given the speeds involved and the amount of map to look around, that just caught me some glimpses here and there. For the sheer quantity of whining around here, I was expecting a whole lot more, but instead it just made it seem like the people complaining about being easily detected were as big a crybaby as anyone.
only 2 times that i've been detected by were by Wells and a T'varo both Players were using Science Toons... i know that the T'varo player was using EPtA + sensor scan and he was a torp boat and can't say much about the Wells player except he was in a premade and can see pretty far and also used Sensor Scan alot of times, but they were both slow compare to my ship which using AtD + EPtE.
I think using a Eng toon is not a good idea to detect ships, also 94 in sensors is not really high to detect cloaked ships effectively especially with a Eng toon (which has no Sensor Scan), also with passive skill to Sensor u would need to stack ur Sci Console Slot with Sensors Consoles to increase more points for more detection, my KDF Sci toon using a Fleet B'rel snoop Torp boat had a passive total sensor skill + embassy sensor consoles of almost 200 skill to detect Rommie Ships within 10 km which was effective b4 i respec her to use Mogh (First C-store ship i bought since the B'rel Retrofit).
Wow... I find it ironic.. you claim.. you have to give up something to detect us.. what are you giving up to cloak?
A console slot? nope... umm.. dps.. nope... 5% hull.. ok so one hit from a dhc worth of damage.. . that's your big trade off for invisibility and a damage boost coming out of that invisibility?
But you argue.. you can give up more dps or survivability to detect us... ooh yep that's balance for ya..
My issue with KDF players defending this imbalance is you always try to drag in other aspects of the game to defend it.. Having more ship selection does not change the imbalance all it does it makes a bunch of the same imbalances. You wont ever stay on the topic of ship for ship... nope have to use boffs, consoles and what else you can as a excuse.
Ship for ship cloak is tiered way to low for its effects on game play this includes romulan and kdf.
You are sooo scared of losing that advantage.. that you will make every excuse under the sun.
The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance.
For every non-ship issue you bring up people can bring up other issue that are just as imbalanced.. such as Elite Disruptors getting a 25% damage on shields proc that last 10 sec while feds get a 180 shield heal... ya sure that's balanced.
How many times do we need to say we agree that the ship numbers are imbalanced and that boffs are imbalanced... at least we are admitting to the imbalances. Something you guys never admit to.. I have seen KDF players defend the elite disruptors vs the elite phasers.. when you defend stuff like that.. well bias is to nice a word.
only 2 times that i've been detected by were by Wells and a T'varo both Players were using Science Toons... i know that the T'varo player was using EPtA + sensor scan and he was a torp boat and can't say much about the Wells player except he was in a premade and can see pretty far and also used Sensor Scan alot of times, but they were both slow compare to my ship which using AtD + EPtE.
I think using a Eng toon is not a good idea to detect ships, also 94 in sensors is not really high to detect cloaked ships effectively especially with a Eng toon (which has no Sensor Scan), also with passive skill to Sensor u would need to stack ur Sci Console Slot with Sensors Consoles to increase more points for more detection, my KDF Sci toon using a Fleet B'rel snoop Torp boat had a passive total sensor skill + embassy sensor consoles of almost 200 skill to detect Rommie Ships within 10 km which was effective b4 i respec her to use Mogh (First C-store ship i bought since the B'rel Retrofit).
Oh I know my setup wasn't optimized, just what I had available to test the concept (my Rom-Sci is KDF and that wouldn't give me many cloaked ships to look for). I did it more because of the people who complain so much that 'cloaking is easy to detect' or 'anyone running EPTA will see me 12 km away' or 'any noob even remotely paying attention will see anyone coming.' So someone who reasonably understands game mechanics but has zero pvp or snooping experience in 'just a ship' without any kind of optimization for the role, taking a shot at it to see what all the fuss was about, and spending a few hours just zipping around seeing what I could see. And what I found was that those complainers are whiny and full of hyperbole (and full of something else as well). With a specific toon in a specific ship with specific gear I'm sure I could have done much better, but it wasn't 'so easy a caveman could do it' and would have required a purpose-built spec and loadout. So it wasn't easy (dedicated effort required), it wasn't as simple as just slotting a power or two, and even doing nothing BUT purposefully paying attention it was still chancy at best.
It was all pretty disappointing really. For all the people who are angry and dismissive or for the people who politely present this stuff as Hard Fact and then it turns out not to be the case, makes it really difficult to have a logical discussion about merits, drawbacks, and general balance. I mean if someone wants to vent, then vent, and if they want to have a real discussion, then check the ego and hyperbole and have a real discussion. But don't claim you (hypothetical 'you,' not any 'you' in particular) want one then do the other, as it makes the whole exercise completely pointless.
LOL Yeah, KDF is OP. And I'm the King and Queen of England! :rolleyes:
What are we talking about here, PvP??? Hillarious. :P
Whenever nerfs hit, the same people whine about the darned PvPers that always break their OP toys and suck out the fun from their game.
Whenever they need to justify their whining for something completely irrational, those same people turn into seasoned PvPers in one last glorious attempt to justify their flawed points, as if the devs are dumbasses that don't understand anything.
Some of you guys really need to get a perspective on things.
Wow... I find it ironic.. you claim.. you have to give up something to detect us.. what are you giving up to cloak?
A console slot? nope... umm.. dps.. nope... 5% hull.. ok so one hit from a dhc worth of damage.. . that's your big trade off for invisibility and a damage boost coming out of that invisibility?
But you argue.. you can give up more dps or survivability to detect us... ooh yep that's balance for ya..
My issue with KDF players defending this imbalance is you always try to drag in other aspects of the game to defend it.. Having more ship selection does not change the imbalance all it does it makes a bunch of the same imbalances. You wont ever stay on the topic of ship for ship... nope have to use boffs, consoles and what else you can as a excuse.
Ship for ship cloak is tiered way to low for its effects on game play this includes romulan and kdf.
You are sooo scared of losing that advantage.. that you will make every excuse under the sun.
The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance.
For every non-ship issue you bring up people can bring up other issue that are just as imbalanced.. such as Elite Disruptors getting a 25% damage on shields proc that last 10 sec while feds get a 180 shield heal... ya sure that's balanced.
How many times do we need to say we agree that the ship numbers are imbalanced and that boffs are imbalanced... at least we are admitting to the imbalances. Something you guys never admit to.. I have seen KDF players defend the elite disruptors vs the elite phasers.. when you defend stuff like that.. well bias is to nice a word.
What'd I say earlier guys? What did I say? The Feds and Roms with all their toys and better ship selection, all their 5 TAC Console ships, all their Escorts, Cruisers, Science Vessels, Romulan Battle Cloaks, etc., still look at the KDF like we stole their milk money.
Then you look at the selection of ships. Then you realize how much 5 forward weapon, 5 TAC Console, 5 forward weapon & 5 TAC Console ships, how many new ships have been made for, etc... then you know where the real bias Cryptic has had in development.
If you REALLY think those Raptors are that scary, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY think that our Nausicaan Destroyers are all that, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY are that scared of the flimsy Birds of Prey that lack any staying power in a real fight, I don't know what to tell you. The only ships that can hang in a real fight for the KDF are the Battlecruisers and Carriers (mostly Vo'Quv). If you REALLY think this game is biased towards the KDF, you must have some tar black tinted glasses.
What'd I say earlier guys? What did I say? The Feds and Roms with all their toys and better ship selection, all their 5 TAC Console ships, all their Escorts, Cruisers, Science Vessels, Romulan Battle Cloaks, etc., still look at the KDF like we stole their milk money.
Then you look at the selection of ships. Then you realize how much 5 forward weapon, 5 TAC Console, 5 forward weapon & 5 TAC Console ships, how many new ships have been made for, etc... then you know where the real bias Cryptic has had in development.
If you REALLY think those Raptors are that scary, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY think that our Nausicaan Destroyers are all that, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY are that scared of the flimsy Birds of Prey that lack any staying power in a real fight, I don't know what to tell you. The only ships that can hang in a real fight for the KDF are the Battlecruisers and Carriers (mostly Vo'Quv). If you REALLY think this game is biased towards the KDF, you must have some tar black tinted glasses.
Holy jeez...
Thank you for proving my point....
Can not talk about ship to ship balance... nooo... have to bring up other aspects that have nothing to do with ship to ship balance.
Ya so WHAT if federation have more ships to pick from.. aka.. skins on there ships.. they only use one at a time.. dur.
So I do not want see any more whining from you KDF about 5 tac consoles.. cause Mr. Warmaker here has stated that that its the balance for your cloaks... so you should never ever get them.. EVER.... yep thats balance...
Warmaker why do not you wake up.. and READ my whole post.. as stated over and over.. we have agreed that there is a ship numbers imbalance.. that there should be more KDF selection.. just like cloak needs to be balanced with non cloak... its not a hard concept.
Comments
The RPG Prime Directive was released way way after Federation and the Empire and Star Fleet Battles... its At the time F&D and SFB was released it was the licensed Star Trek game. IT was only after the reboot of star trek that Prime Directive was released and the Star Trek Movies started going in to a different direction and that's when paramount bought Star Trek. Due to this they lost license and any thing released after that sell was not allowed to be used in Star Fleet Universe material.
They had to put a discloser per paramount. This was do to the movies totally changing things compared to the TV show. They never came to the agreement like Cryptic did with Paramount after they bought the rights to it
So it doesn't change the fact that the base game was a licensed Star Trek product.. this is why there was never a Next Gen. SFB game.. they only had license for TOS and for the early wars
Heh, the tac Bortas had 5 tac consoles before it was cool.
Same here. Been using mine since it came out pretty much. I kinda retired it with the release of the Mogh, but might hop back into it again one day. I used it in spite of all the negativity people had for it for so long, and still kinda do.
Honestly, the biggest problem I have with the Bortas isn't with any of it's ship stats (though I will call BS nowadays on it's weaker cloak and only a 1 shield modifier), it's the fact that it's poor sales (for understandable reasons why people didn't want it) was used as a long-standing justification to not give the Klingon faction ANY C-store ships for so long.
It's not relevant when the RPG was released, it's still set in the same universe and thus the same rules apply.
Also SFB didn't originally have a license from Paramount. It had a license from Franz Joseph who wrote the "Star Fleet Technical Manual" who had a license from Paramount.
So it was merely a "second degree" license. They didn't get a license from Paramount until later. And part of that settlement is that the material is not allowed to use the Star Trek name. So not even by that standard it was ever a licensed Star Trek Product but a licensed product based on a licensed product.
The Flanking Bonus is much reduced against players, but it still is a boost. Nothing like the wrecking in PVE that you could do with a BOP.
Really? ok man what ever.. your just arguing to argue.. Its licensed from the guy who did the Tech manual.. the ideas behind ALL the tech in Star Trek.. and he licenses a game maker to make a game based on that tech.. and you blow it off. There some logic for ya... It was a licensed Star Trek product.. you can whine snivel about it all you want.. its a Star Trek product.. deal with it man...
Even with out that.. how often are you watching Federation ships being blown out of the sky by Klingon ships in the T.V shows? How may times do you see Federation ships losing one on one fights with Klingon ships? Hell in DS9 when a fleet of 50 Klingon ships are attacking a space station the Klingons have another 25 more ships incoming.. and Sisko threatens with my 9 star ships wil be here 1st.. 9 Federation Star Ships vs 50+ Klingon.. and they back off.. its in the lore the T.V shows the board games that Federation ships were more powerful ship for ship.
of course you can not have that in a game.. other wise no one would play the KDF.. but lore wise you can not argue that Klingon ships were equal in power to Federation ships just has never been that way.
Also every instance of a ship with a cloak that needed to use it, always had to break off from the fight and cloak. Thus the very idea of using a cloak in the middle of a battle is not in the show. The ships always had to use evasive manuevers and break incoming fire to use the cloak. I think the biggest complaint about the Cloak is when you are in the middle of a fight and people use the battle cloak as a "get out of Jail free" card. As soon as they start to loose or are about to pop they cloak right in the middle of the fight. Rommies are worse with the singularity jump / cloak trick. If STO wanted to be more realistic you would have to have 3 seconds without incoming fire to be able to cloak. For all ships. If you are getting shot at you should not be able to cloak to avoid getting beaten. There should be a delay from when you activate the cloak your shields drop but you can still be seen for 1.5 seconds and have %20 loss of hull damage resistance. So if you try to cloak right in the middle of a fight just to deny someone a kill its going to backfire. If you want out of the fight you have to get out. Then you can hide, heal, get ready for the next alpha strike. BOP could have a shorter evasive cooldown or something to allow them to get out of incoming fire. But this: "Decloak-Alpha Strike-Dam it didnt work-oh TRIBBLE this guys got me-Ha, Ha Ill just cloak and run" tatic is just as bad a people that log out in the middle of a fight to deny a kill. Just my two strips.
Ok, I really don't like how much you've been derailing this thread. But I am gonna reply tot his at least.
So...you say that 'Star Fleet Battles' was a licensed Star Trek product. Ok, we will go with that. BUT that does not make it automatically 'canon'. In fact, at best, anything 'licensed' is soft-canon. Any game, any book, etc is never more than soft-canon.
Even STO itself ignores pretty much all other games and books. Like the Destiny and Typhon Pact novels (exception to that being the Vesta being in the game) take the 'normal' ST universe to a VERY different degree than STO has.
You are trying to justify Feds being better through other things that are, as said, at beast, soft-canon. Meaning that it fits the ST universe, but doesn't make it automatically true.
Besides, just because something worked in some way in something else, doesn't mean it has to immediately work here. Ever played Star Trek: Conquest on the PS2? Rather 'meh' little turn-based strategy game. Wanna know how you won? Build nothing but fleets of the largest ships (such as Galaxy class ships for the Federation) and just stomp your way through. Does that mean a group of Galaxy class ships should be an easy way to stomp through anything in STO just because it worked in that?
Also, about that fight in DS9, Gowron didn't back off because those Starfleet reinforcements of 9 ships or whatever were magically stronger than the entire fleet. He stopped because the Sisko convinced him that the Dominion was the one who wanted all this fighting in the first place, and the Federation wasn't the real enemy here.
Keep in mind as well that Sisko was putting his best poker face on at the time. The shields on DS9 had fallen once, and O'Brien got them back up, though he wasn't sure for how long. Odo had managed to contain the boarding parties, but also wasn't sure how long that would last as well.
Martok said that they could still win despite all of that, though the Sisko replied that they couldn't before the reinforcements arrived. Or in other words, it would be a very hard, bloody battle. Now of course Martok at the time was being impersonated by a Changling, so that might have had something to do with it. But it is still possible that he/it was right though.
Something besides all that: It's a TV show. They, the writers, are gonna do SOMETHING to keep dramatic tension up. They could have said that no reinforcements were coming, or they could say another hundred Klingon ships are inbound, or whatever. Point is that a writer is gonna do something to keep the tension running, etc etc. That doesn't make Starfleet ships more powerful than Klingon ones.
The fight was ended (not really a 'win' for either side) because of reasoning and logic. Including stuff from Klingon philosophy itself. Gowron realized what was going on as such, and stopped the attack, ending a conflict before it escalated and got worse, because the Sisko convinced him of what was going on.
"Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." - Kahless
Wow.. talk about sugar coating...
Go watch the show again... Worf, Gowron, Sisko all understood that with the Federation reinforcements the Klingon Fleet would be decimated. That when the real threat came that the Klingon fleet would be so badly damaged that it wouldn't be able to fight. The hole "to win a battle but lose a Empire was no victory and to lose a battle to save a Empire was no defeat"
So a Fleet of 9 Federation ships + a star base was going to decimate a Klingon task force.. This is what was being portrayed in that fight.
Also I like how you cherry pick what lore you want to use and discount other.. while you totally ignore the fact you never see Klingon ships going 1 on 1 with Federation sips in fights and whining. In the shows that are 100% canon in anyway.
The ties in to this whole thread that Klingon are Op or not.. is there balance is in game and the argument that Klingons have better War ships.. well according to lore they didn't have "better" war ships they had more of them.. some how people for get that the Klingons were warriors at heart but doesn't mean there ships were better at war then the Federation. I brought up other lore showing that back in 1970's board game... the one that came out when it was thought Star Trek was dead on gone on TV that it the Klingon Empire was shown to have numbers and would over whelm a opponent that it was the Federation that put more in to the individual ships.. quality vs quantity.. this is also carried on in the TV and movies showing Federation ships being over all more powerful. In all the lore it has pointed to Federation having ship for ship more powerful ships
I in no way think that in a game that it should be represented as it is in other Star Trek lore.. after all that would be unbalanced. This claim of Klingon war ship superiority is only in the heads of players.. its no backing in the lore of Star Trek.
There is a lot of room for balance changes in the game. to simple things like Phasers needing a balance pass after there nerf a few years back. To ship imbalance between faction such as dedicated Sci ships for KDF. To cloak vs non cloaking ships... to Star Fleet ships having something unique to them and KDF and Federation needing a balance pass on space traits for boffs more so for the KDF to bring them in line to Romulan space boffs.
How many Indeginous/Align KDF ships have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons?... like 2, Bortas and Mogh
How many Fed designs have 5 Tactical Consoles or 5 Fore Weapons? um... let me see... Defiant, Patrol Escort, Avenger, Kumari and it's variants, Prometeus, etc.. not to mention the Feds have more 4 Tactical Consoles ships than the Entire Tier 5 KDF ship line up combined.
It's someways interesting that alot of Fed still crying about KDF ships having a Cloak while at the same time most of them say nothing about Romulan Ships with their Battle Cloaks with BOff's having space traits that can cut down the Cloak CD time to 10 sec and/or increase attack duration while most KDF ships on the other hand cannot Cloak in combat nor do they have any indigenous BOff's with space traits that can improve Cloak abilities except for Stealth skill increase.
If some of u Feds disagree and still believe that KDF ships are superior then read the first line of my Sig...
No its that Romulan players are honest with them self's that there op.. Klingon players lie to them selfs that cloak is blanaced vs non cloak....
So I made the joke that 5 tac console escorts are Fed and romulan only.. and if you want them play that faction... its the same line we get form KDF players saying if you want cloak go play KDF or Romulan...
Simple truth.. there are balance issue with all the factions and need to be addressed... but are ignored for years. In stead we get more and more C-Store ships.. with out fixing some core issues with all three factions..
That's because even the obsolete Birds of Prey are still the Fed / Fed-Rom boogeyman. Because, ******nit, it has a Battle Cloak!!!
They want someone to shoot at who CANNOT cloak
passive cloak/battlecloak should be detected at range 10 by passive sensors
Skills.......consoles....Doffs/Boff's at this point should determine who is cloaked and who is detected on a equal footing
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I mean have you seen the KDFs MVAE ... errr I mean the 5 forward weapon Andorian Escort.... no wait I meant the Tempest with its 5 Tactical Console Slots ...... wait what
When it comes to PVP most Fed heavy players fear the unseen but they dare not speak out against the Romulan vessels and their Battle Cloaks for fear that the second skin might be weakened so they instead lash out at the next best target.... KDF Raiders are OP because of their flanking and their Battle Cloaks :rolleyes:
If some Fed players had their way every Federation Vessel would come standard with a Phased Battle Cloak that can fire all weapons while the cloak is engaged
You want the simple truth?
Take a look at this. Remember what the ships, their stats, console setups, BOFF setups consist of. Because I'll tell you now, the imbalance is not in the KDF's favor is you think it is. The pecking order of power, ship selection, ship capability goes in this order:
1. Romulans: Not so much in ship selection options, but in sheer Overpoweredness.
2. Feds: Sheer ship selection with outstanding options across the board except in Carriers. Escorts, Cruisers, Science Vessels, all have options in greatly varying playstyles and console arrangements. 4-5 SCI/ENG/TAC Console arragements all over the place. Lots of good ships to be found in the Escort, Cruiser, Sci Ship selection. Still loses out on sheer OP'ness that the Roms have.
3. KDF: More ship options than Romulans, but like the Feds, lose on sheer power. Ship options are much more limited due to Cryptic's lack of attention (that was thrown to the Feds over the years). The faction is very limited in options in the Escort and Sci Vessel lineups. Battlecruisers and Carriers have been holding up well. There is also a great lacking of specialist 5-Console ships. Whether it be TAC or SCI.
The cloak vs non-cloak balance is fine. The point is even more moot when you consider that all cloak-capable KDF ships are standard cloaks except for the BOPs, and once you're in combat, it's useless past the 5 second ambush bonus. Then the Raptors are dealing with inferior hulls and shields, and in today's STO, even inferior Turn Rates.
Interesting...
KDF Bop's compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Battle Cloak (Can be used in Combat)
- Suepeior Turn Rate
- All Universal Boff Stations
- Flanking (25% dmg vs NPC/ 8% dmg vs Players)
Disadvantages
- Inferior Hull
- Inferior Shields Mod.
- 1 Less BOff Ability
- 1 Less BOff Station
- 1 Less Weapon Slot
KDF Raptors compare to Fed Escorts
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
Disadvantages
- Weak Turn Rate / Axis
- Weak Shield Mod.
Most KDF Battle Cruisers compare to Most Fed Cruisers
Advantages
- Cloak (Cannot be used in Combat only out of it)
- Can use Dual Cannons
- Turn Rate
Disadvantages
- Weak Hull Mod.
- 1 Less Cruiser Command (No KDF Battle Cruiser have ''Attract Fire'' that increases Damage Resistance and add more resistance with more players nearby
... Sure, we lie about ourselfs for being OP...
You DO realize how good Cloak Detection is in this game? Most esp. by the Feds with their tools / consoles???
Or you just want to see cloaked ships with no effort, no specialization, no dedication put into it except by warping into the map with any random ship?
Oh, BTW, we are living in the spirit of the thread... because 'lo and behold, the Feds are coming to cry about the OP KDF despite themselves being Feds with an outstanding ship lineup, or better yet, Fed-Roms.
That's the kicker... Fed-Roms crying about the KDF
Back when I Pvped with my Federation Science Captains I could detect a Cloaked Vessel from about 8k out with just a few points and about 80 aux power and I imagine it could be done just has easily today if not more so.
Problem is no one wants to invest any points in a skill or slot any equipment that does not increase their damage.
The ability to detect cloaked vessels is already in game, players just choose not to use them because they don't want to pay for them.
You're getting it wrong, errab... they want to detect cloaked vessels with no effort, no dedication. The tools are already there, most esp. with the Feds who have some gamebreaking detection methods. But most just don't want to put the effort and want to automatically see cloaked vessels.
I totally agree, a few times in PvP these dayz, i notice a few snoop ships that can see my ship as far as 12 km and thats with 9 points on my Stealth Skill, Embassy Rommie BOff's with a Superior Subterfuge Space Trait, and my Aux power is at 130...
And still alot of players still complain on ppl using Cloaks and they do not even try to make a build to counter them... just now like as it have been in this game, ppl are just building either pure DPS or pure Tank builds. most ppl that do made a snoop builds are basically ppl that are in Fleet Premades where their disadvantages in other areas just to detect cloaked ships would be make up with teamwork and cross heals.
Many Feds just wanted a ''I win button''
Say no more, this nails it.
R.I.P
If other liscenced Star Trek products or relevant to the greater story that is the IP, regardless when they where released and approved, then I know of several other individual products that trump the lore of a few other video games. Books, tech manuals, and novels to see the least.
Arguing that the lore of one old video game is the set in stone only truth is stupid.
R.I.P
HIgh skilling in sensors, and add consoles, equip and doff to boost AuX or sensors, will allow you to see cloaked ships easily at 12km or more.
R.I.P
Except for all the ******** about how 'easy' it is to see cloaked ships its meh. Tried it a few weeks ago just to see what all the whining was about. Fed-rom Eng, T'varo, 94 in sensors, EPTA2, 130 aux. Went to Kerrat, just flying around to see what I could see, and my total range was about 4 km detection, and given the speeds involved and the amount of map to look around, that just caught me some glimpses here and there. For the sheer quantity of whining around here, I was expecting a whole lot more, but instead it just made it seem like the people complaining about being easily detected were as big a crybaby as anyone.
only 2 times that i've been detected by were by Wells and a T'varo both Players were using Science Toons... i know that the T'varo player was using EPtA + sensor scan and he was a torp boat and can't say much about the Wells player except he was in a premade and can see pretty far and also used Sensor Scan alot of times, but they were both slow compare to my ship which using AtD + EPtE.
I think using a Eng toon is not a good idea to detect ships, also 94 in sensors is not really high to detect cloaked ships effectively especially with a Eng toon (which has no Sensor Scan), also with passive skill to Sensor u would need to stack ur Sci Console Slot with Sensors Consoles to increase more points for more detection, my KDF Sci toon using a Fleet B'rel snoop Torp boat had a passive total sensor skill + embassy sensor consoles of almost 200 skill to detect Rommie Ships within 10 km which was effective b4 i respec her to use Mogh (First C-store ship i bought since the B'rel Retrofit).
A console slot? nope... umm.. dps.. nope... 5% hull.. ok so one hit from a dhc worth of damage.. . that's your big trade off for invisibility and a damage boost coming out of that invisibility?
But you argue.. you can give up more dps or survivability to detect us... ooh yep that's balance for ya..
My issue with KDF players defending this imbalance is you always try to drag in other aspects of the game to defend it.. Having more ship selection does not change the imbalance all it does it makes a bunch of the same imbalances. You wont ever stay on the topic of ship for ship... nope have to use boffs, consoles and what else you can as a excuse.
Ship for ship cloak is tiered way to low for its effects on game play this includes romulan and kdf.
You are sooo scared of losing that advantage.. that you will make every excuse under the sun.
The fact that Federation players and Romulan players all agree that KDF boffs and ship selection needs balancing help... you guys are so bias when most Romulan players and fed players say that cloaking is a issue over all when it comes to game balance.
For every non-ship issue you bring up people can bring up other issue that are just as imbalanced.. such as Elite Disruptors getting a 25% damage on shields proc that last 10 sec while feds get a 180 shield heal... ya sure that's balanced.
How many times do we need to say we agree that the ship numbers are imbalanced and that boffs are imbalanced... at least we are admitting to the imbalances. Something you guys never admit to.. I have seen KDF players defend the elite disruptors vs the elite phasers.. when you defend stuff like that.. well bias is to nice a word.
Oh I know my setup wasn't optimized, just what I had available to test the concept (my Rom-Sci is KDF and that wouldn't give me many cloaked ships to look for). I did it more because of the people who complain so much that 'cloaking is easy to detect' or 'anyone running EPTA will see me 12 km away' or 'any noob even remotely paying attention will see anyone coming.' So someone who reasonably understands game mechanics but has zero pvp or snooping experience in 'just a ship' without any kind of optimization for the role, taking a shot at it to see what all the fuss was about, and spending a few hours just zipping around seeing what I could see. And what I found was that those complainers are whiny and full of hyperbole (and full of something else as well). With a specific toon in a specific ship with specific gear I'm sure I could have done much better, but it wasn't 'so easy a caveman could do it' and would have required a purpose-built spec and loadout. So it wasn't easy (dedicated effort required), it wasn't as simple as just slotting a power or two, and even doing nothing BUT purposefully paying attention it was still chancy at best.
It was all pretty disappointing really. For all the people who are angry and dismissive or for the people who politely present this stuff as Hard Fact and then it turns out not to be the case, makes it really difficult to have a logical discussion about merits, drawbacks, and general balance. I mean if someone wants to vent, then vent, and if they want to have a real discussion, then check the ego and hyperbole and have a real discussion. But don't claim you (hypothetical 'you,' not any 'you' in particular) want one then do the other, as it makes the whole exercise completely pointless.
What are we talking about here, PvP???
Whenever nerfs hit, the same people whine about the darned PvPers that always break their OP toys and suck out the fun from their game.
Whenever they need to justify their whining for something completely irrational, those same people turn into seasoned PvPers in one last glorious attempt to justify their flawed points, as if the devs are dumbasses that don't understand anything.
Some of you guys really need to get a perspective on things.
What'd I say earlier guys? What did I say? The Feds and Roms with all their toys and better ship selection, all their 5 TAC Console ships, all their Escorts, Cruisers, Science Vessels, Romulan Battle Cloaks, etc., still look at the KDF like we stole their milk money.
Then you look at the selection of ships. Then you realize how much 5 forward weapon, 5 TAC Console, 5 forward weapon & 5 TAC Console ships, how many new ships have been made for, etc... then you know where the real bias Cryptic has had in development.
If you REALLY think those Raptors are that scary, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY think that our Nausicaan Destroyers are all that, I don't know what to tell you. If you REALLY are that scared of the flimsy Birds of Prey that lack any staying power in a real fight, I don't know what to tell you. The only ships that can hang in a real fight for the KDF are the Battlecruisers and Carriers (mostly Vo'Quv). If you REALLY think this game is biased towards the KDF, you must have some tar black tinted glasses.
Holy jeez...
Thank you for proving my point....
Can not talk about ship to ship balance... nooo... have to bring up other aspects that have nothing to do with ship to ship balance.
Ya so WHAT if federation have more ships to pick from.. aka.. skins on there ships.. they only use one at a time.. dur.
So I do not want see any more whining from you KDF about 5 tac consoles.. cause Mr. Warmaker here has stated that that its the balance for your cloaks... so you should never ever get them.. EVER.... yep thats balance...
Warmaker why do not you wake up.. and READ my whole post.. as stated over and over.. we have agreed that there is a ship numbers imbalance.. that there should be more KDF selection.. just like cloak needs to be balanced with non cloak... its not a hard concept.