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FBP-Centric Builds: What's the Point?
rck01
Member Posts: 808 Arc User
I mean, seriously, why bother? Other than to be annoyingly difficult to kill, what purpose does an FBP-centric build serve?
I ask because I ran into such a joker today in a private queue match. I was lured in by his buddy who wanted to pit his Hirogen Hunter against mine. We went at it for a while, but when it was clear he wouldn't win, he threw in the towel and invited me to try his friend on for size.
His friend turned out to be an adapted battle cruiser captain with a nasty FBP ratio. After nearly killing myself on my first alpha pass, I proceeded to try to finesse my way around his defenses - a BO3 shot here, some CRF there - but it became clear to me that I could not do enough damage in the time available between his FBP cycles. So in the end I threw in my own towel and went to fetch a more suitable ship: My FAHCR.
Meeting up later, I had somewhat better success with the cruiser - I could tank at least some of his FBP damage, but given his size and hull strength, there was simply no way to wear him down quick enough to avoid the inevitable self-immolation.
Frustrating, to say the least, but here's the kicker: At no time was I ever in danger of being killed by *his* offense. In fact, his non-FBP DPS was almost non-existent. I actually tanked his APA3-fueled "onslaught" (if you could call it that) while nursing my ship back from a near suicide alpha strike a few seconds before. Basically, it was a joke - I could sit there all day and absorb his best from point blank range.
So, the question is: Given such a ship's complete lack of offensive potential, and its requirement that you shoot at it before it can actually damage you, what the heck is the point? I mean, in a team PvP setting, what is this dude's function? Fly to the center of the map and hope somebody's dumb enough to fire on him? Because, clearly, he's not going to contribute to many kills by throwing softballs.
Note: I'm excluding Cryox and his nasty FBP ship from this discussion because, unlike my fat fed-aligned battle cruiser friend, he actually has some DPS to add to the mix. But the dude I met was nothing but a giant porcupine of FAIL. And his tendency to hurl mocking insults throughout the match (an attempt at goading?) only added to his perceived jerkishness.
I guess I just don't see the point...
RCK
I ask because I ran into such a joker today in a private queue match. I was lured in by his buddy who wanted to pit his Hirogen Hunter against mine. We went at it for a while, but when it was clear he wouldn't win, he threw in the towel and invited me to try his friend on for size.
His friend turned out to be an adapted battle cruiser captain with a nasty FBP ratio. After nearly killing myself on my first alpha pass, I proceeded to try to finesse my way around his defenses - a BO3 shot here, some CRF there - but it became clear to me that I could not do enough damage in the time available between his FBP cycles. So in the end I threw in my own towel and went to fetch a more suitable ship: My FAHCR.
Meeting up later, I had somewhat better success with the cruiser - I could tank at least some of his FBP damage, but given his size and hull strength, there was simply no way to wear him down quick enough to avoid the inevitable self-immolation.
Frustrating, to say the least, but here's the kicker: At no time was I ever in danger of being killed by *his* offense. In fact, his non-FBP DPS was almost non-existent. I actually tanked his APA3-fueled "onslaught" (if you could call it that) while nursing my ship back from a near suicide alpha strike a few seconds before. Basically, it was a joke - I could sit there all day and absorb his best from point blank range.
So, the question is: Given such a ship's complete lack of offensive potential, and its requirement that you shoot at it before it can actually damage you, what the heck is the point? I mean, in a team PvP setting, what is this dude's function? Fly to the center of the map and hope somebody's dumb enough to fire on him? Because, clearly, he's not going to contribute to many kills by throwing softballs.
Note: I'm excluding Cryox and his nasty FBP ship from this discussion because, unlike my fat fed-aligned battle cruiser friend, he actually has some DPS to add to the mix. But the dude I met was nothing but a giant porcupine of FAIL. And his tendency to hurl mocking insults throughout the match (an attempt at goading?) only added to his perceived jerkishness.
I guess I just don't see the point...
RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Yeah, it'll put my TSS on CD, but I can still throw out HE/ET/Aux to SIF/ST without having to be too worried about healing myself for that time. And if they're still nailing me after FBP wears off, TSS will be off of CD so I can use that on myself while still having other heals for the team.
Dear RCK,
Whoever hurled insults during a private is without class.
FBP is meant for FAW A2B Dem hackers - a hax in response for another hax.
When you run into such an opponent again, equip yourself with Proton Barrage. PB has a chance of removing his FBP along with 2 other buffs. You will have at least 30 seconds to tear it apart from that point on. Want to make it more challenging? After your PB connects, hit it with Scrambled Sensor with Seggis to nuke his timers, it will kiss its FBP good bye for 40+ seconds.
The point is, you need to adapt your build accordingly, except when you run into Ludavix, in which case your only option is to wave a white flag & surrender.
IMO there are a few problems with these builds. First and foremost is that there's no hard counter to it except subnuc. Even using subsystem attacks and taking AUX to zero (very hard vs target with full power in a subsystem) doesnt seem to put the ability on cooldown or anything. At least with TBR you can hit PH/APO to cancel the damage, but there's no such counter with FBP. All you can do is make him spend it, then time your buff against his cooldown, hope he doesnt have something else like RSP or the Voth shield for the gap, then do it all over again.
Also, tac abilities buff "all damage" including damage from partgens, which is the root of a big balance problem. Each of the other professions have to buff partgens skill by investing in points and gear, while Tac gets a free ride and can buff with abilities alone. Does engi get better APD from MW ... no? Meanwhile some of the abilities that should be keyed to partgens are not (Tetryon Cascade buffed by tac, Proton Barrage buffed by tac, neither are buffed by partgens but should be) and therefore are effectively Tactical-only abilities.
One of the worst abilities in the game
Not to mention such a build was evidently designed completely to stalemate tacscorts/cruisers in 1v1. A science player would tear him/her apart.
Builds like this are part of the reason why I personally feel 1v1s in general are rather busted, especially given the rock-paper-scissors mechanic that occurs to some degree.
Disclaimer: The above is personal opinion based on personal experience.
Unless RCK had dramatically changed since I last saw him, APA is not the issue. My Sci had no APA or APO and zero part gen consoles, yet neither his escort or FAW A2B cruiser can handle the incoming dmg, especially when he didn't use the bugged Borg 2 piece set bonus. Now that the Borg 2 piece has been fixed, I don't see his survivability improving without major changes. APA is problematic and should be fixed but I know from experience, it's not the reason why players can't deal with FBP.
And there's the rub: He *wasn't* doing anything else...he's a Tac, flying a big, fat battle cruiser (because it has a sizable hull), and using FBP to troll 1v1 matches. In terms of usefulness in a team setting, he's wasted space.
I mean, if he were doing something productive - like healing or debuffing - I could see the point. But as a Tac abusing a mechanic and generally being obnoxious about it. Kinda pathetic, if you think about it.
Put this guy in a non-FBP escort or cruiser build and watch him get shredded by real PvP players...
RCK
The topic of discussion isn't whether or not players can deal with FBP (most can't). Rather, it's whether an FBP-centric build run by a Tac captain and contributing no other useful skill to the match serves a purpose outside of trolling those suckered into a 1v1 with him.
In retrospect, the truly humorous part of the whole experience was listening to his buddy go on about how the FBP-abuser was some "top" player and that they're both part of "elite PvP fleets." Given the above, I seriously doubt it...
RCK
Try the Proton Barrage + Scrambled Sensor (with Seggis) solution I suggested earlier. It's a poor man's nuke for Tact Captains. You can remove his FBP, perhaps TT as well and caused all his timers to go crazy and buy yourself 40 seconds to kill it. 40 seconds is enough for you to land 3 BO III , you should be able to kill it with its FBP removed and on CD
Note, when a ship carries more than one copy of FBP, only one of them is FBP 3. FBP 2 is not as dangerous and FBP 1 can simply be ignored. If the said ship doesn't have A2b or PO, you know one of the two FBP is not a 3
I've noticed an uptick is FBP centered builds with S9. The idea is push it to the extreme to survive and maybe get lucky and kill a vaper. Not every build out there maximizes DPS.
It's Excelsior showtime!
When I encounter FBP idiots (and I mean those who only FBP as damage, nothing from energy weapons) I use it to my own advantage. Slowly fire at him and when I get to 30% I stop firing, click Omega + Alpha + BFI + Ramming speed with doff + Evasives + EPtE (you need speed) and ram his face.
Then enjoy an easy 90k noncrit kinetic with 100% shield penetration with no self damage.
In one way or another, he WILL go down as they can't counter it with such build.
#problemsolved :cool:
Gogo double FBP with double doffed RSP! You are a champion!
@DevolvedOne
Riccardo,
Never thought of that! Ramming speed it is next time! 60K+ of hull comin' at you at 200+ speed! Feed on that, baby!
RCK
That said, it sounds like this guy needs to learn to buff his FBP with APA rather than trying to prop up pitiful conventional damage with it.
That only works if you can catch your target by surprise. Otherwise, there is a gazillion way to counter it. You also need to have all your buffs up like APA , GDF, Tact fleet and etc. ramming with doff is a cheap shot using a broken mechanism. Sadly for Riccardo, his Ramming speed is of no use when his buffs are nuked. In any event, with Ramming becoming so overused, it's becoming almost compulsory to watch out for it. If you feel Jonie / Raijin doing that to you isn't a real win, then you shouldn't follow Riccardo's advice.
I have never met CryoX outside his Bug ship, so him using FBP is news to me. FBP is really no issues to Sci Captains. Before FBP was fashionable, Queen Scora used nothing but FBP. Nuked it, problem solved.
As for CryoX going ballistic, that's not news at all.
Excelsior godlike turn rate and all the mentioned buffs make ramming 101% sure kill, without taking damage.
Love Excelsior for many reasons, this one included.
Don't listen to those who say it won't work and TRIBBLE like that. No one ever predicted a ram (happens in couple of seconds) and neither subnuked me while performing it. i yet have to see someone escaping my ram while using evasive. Rock on it, it works once you get used!
There's nothing wrong with using ramming speed, and a tac will oneshot anyone with all those buffs running.
I know I know, I'm a broken guy, and some people won't accept ideas out of the ordinary ^^
But hey, we're talking about a killing someone that likes to kill with your energy damage right? Then get broken and enjoy his rant about how his lame FBP got worthless!
Its a great counter against vapors, schim and faw cruiser. I've popped some of the best bursters in the game. Just listen for the sound of the attack buffs, and the tractor beam.
Basically, er...that's kind of what all of this sounds like...Joe Random was running X, Random Joe runs Y to counter X, Joe Random complains about Random Joe.
*Applause*
Worst BOFF ability ever. Non-KAX FBP'ers get Ramming Speed with DOFF. Thanks for the GDF ya clownshoes!
Which would be fine, if there was a counter to the counter. But there isnt, people know there isnt a good counter, so they are using it as part of an attack set to block any kind of return fire. Got nothing to do with X>Y=QQ and everything to do with lack of Z leads to exploiting X.
There is a counter to the counter...just like there is a counter to the counter to the counter...just like there is a counter to the counter to the counter to the counter.
What people appear completely unable to accept is that they may not have the particular counter or counter to the counter handy at the time. Nope, folks can't run all the counters nor all the counters to the counters by themselves. Heck, even in a team situation - folks may not have the counters necessary to what they come across.
There's a vast difference between saying there is no counter and the reality of the situation being that one might simply not have the counter on their current build.
Hence why its being exploited.
2. Best FBP is unexpected one on a ship that ppl don't expect to have it
3. best FBP is on tactical ship that also has real attacking abilities
4. clumsy FAWers indeed tend to soften themselves up on FBP and be ready for real counter attack
5. timing is critical
6. more critical is ppl that can't recognize FBP icon and go full rambo on such ships
7. Borg Queen Octahedron has best FBP in game(try it)
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/themostepicfacepalmever
edit: To be fair, this deserved a better reply than just the /facepalm bit. It goes to the simple fact that different careers, ships, builds in general...cannot (and imho should not) have a counter available to everything. Cause if you remove everything, then it's basically just a game of starfighters...everybody spamming their spacebar lasers.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
wrong, wrong, and wrong, and the guy you quoted is also wrong.
You don't need to counter the counter. But you can break FBP if you desire to attack the FBPer. You just need to know how.
FBP is a counter to attack, you know.
Full FBPers put their team on extreme disadvantage. Namely they make it an 4:5 game, so i don't mind them.
And if you are a FAWer and can't help shooting FBPer that will reflect from x1.1 to x3.6 your damage back at you, it is your fault.
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